This is topic The Ten Commandments According to Obama in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.


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Posted by TheQuestioner (Member # 11747) on :
 
Oh my...

The Ten Commandments According to Obama
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
(Edit: we should let PJ deal with this)
 

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Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
 
Well, now that Orincoro edited his post, my "+1" doesn't make any sense.


 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
You and I share this special +1 sentiment. I will cherish it.
 

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Posted by TheQuestioner (Member # 11747) on :
 
What no comments about it?
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
So flying Cow, how do you feel about the 49ers of San Francisco's chances of having a slightly better season of American Football this year? What American Football League franchise do you support or "root for" as we say? Is there an American Football League franchise in your nearest metropolitan area, or the one in which you were born?
 

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Posted by andi330 (Member # 8572) on :
 
Personally, I'm a Skins fan. I'm hoping that this is going to be our year.
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
How very interesting fellow Hatrack online community forum poster andi330. You are referring of course to the Redskins of Washington, and their chances of making it to the American Football League Championship, or "Superbowl," humorously named after one late National Football League commissioner's son's "superball," a rubber toy popular at the time.

When was the last victory in the "Superbowl" as it is called, for your Washington Redskins?
 

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Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
 
I don't really have anything constructive to say.

[ July 21, 2009, 10:15 PM: Message edited by: Nick ]
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
So Nick, what professional American Football team do you support these days? The Cowboys of Dallas perhaps? They seem to be popular.
 

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Posted by Papa Janitor (Member # 7795) on :
 
It's often recommended that one lurk a bit before jumping into the fray here to get a feel for how things are in this community. If you've actually been lurking for the past 8 months, fantastic. But you must have missed the repeated incidents where people post a link to an article with no comments at all and catch an earful (eyeful) for it.

It's frankly somewhat suspicious that a first post here would be so delayed and so out of the blue. There's no general rule against taking or advocating a particular political stance, so you're not breaking a rule there, and there's no rule against posting links to something you consider interesting, or doing so on your first post, or anything like that. It's likely to be ineffective, though, as you may be able to tell based on the first few responses (though I didn't see the unedited first response, so I can't speak to it).

Because of the content and timing of your first post (and the time between joining and posting), there will likely be (possibly rampant) speculation as to whose alternate identity you might be. I'm sorry if this results in your being unfairly accused. If you are using Hatrack to advertise your own blog, that's unacceptable, so please show us you're interested in more than that from your time here.

Welcome to Hatrack, I hope. Others, you don't necessarily need to jump to a conclusion immediately. Thank you for bringing it to my attention, though.

--PJ
 

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Posted by andi330 (Member # 8572) on :
 
Meh...so it's been almost 20 years. I won't be a fair weather fan. If you can't follow your team during their bad years, then you aren't a real fan.
 

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Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
 
I prefer the 49ers over Dallas if you must know.
 

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Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
 
I don't think it's clear whether TheQuestioner was saying:

a) "oh my, look how dreadful Obama is" (which, coupled with the content of the link, MIGHT be cause for eye rolling, although if one forgives the melodramatic presentation there MIGHT be something worth discussing IF TheQuestioner would care to reframe the argument with something other than movie poster sensationalism)(I trust the multiple emphatic qualifiers will preempt all but the most rebutty of rebuttals).

b) "oh my, look how silly some anti-Obama wingnuts are getting" which would probably be a relatively unchallenged stance if coming from one of our more established members (but in turn might not be worth much discussion, unless someone ELSE decided to undertake a relatively cogent defense of the thesis).

c) something else.

Given that, there's certainly no reason for hostility. Welcome, TheQuestioner, and please feel free to elucidate your views on Obama's presidency and the curious meme of divinity.

--
Edit: well, I messed up my post by providing an opinion about the uncertain nature of the OP, and then concluding that "certainly" something must be so. Please assume I meant "in my opinion" where I wrote "certainly."
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
Scifi, you're getting a little off the topic here.

What's your favorite football team, or what flavor of Jell-o brand pudding do you most prefer, and at what time of day?

I say 49ers, banana, and mid afternoon.

How say you?
 

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Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
 
*Hurls pistachio pudding at Orincoro*

May Steve Young deride your pudding in your dreams.

Edit: (wow, I had no idea how dirty that would seem)
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
Damn! Pistachio. I should have thought of that.

I'll take Pistachio only if the graham cracker crust, (not to be mistaken for the inferior oreo-brand variety, but a real crust of crushed graham crackers with butter and a little sugar) is included.
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
I like processed cheese. Whenever I move to new area I buy the store brand american cheese from all the nearby grocery stores so I can tell which one is the best.
 

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Posted by andi330 (Member # 8572) on :
 
:blinks:

Wow. I thought I liked cheese. I was wrong, and I bow before your superior cheese worship.
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
Do you then proceed to buy said cheese, or do you compare prices and devise some metric for determining the cost over quality ratio of any given store brand cheese, and then buy according to the most quality for the lowest per-slice price?
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
Personally, I track all my personal food expenditures according to how presentable the labels may appear when placed in a pleasing order inside my refrigerator. This way, I can always be sure of having an attractive collection of comestibles at all times, even if they are foods that I do not like or which are useless for cooking.
 

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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
I bought some really great aged Gouda the other day. It was like a parmesan with a gouda taste. mmmmmm....
 

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Posted by andi330 (Member # 8572) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Orincoro:
Personally, I track all my personal food expenditures according to how presentable the labels may appear when placed in a pleasing order inside my refrigerator. This way, I can always be sure of having an attractive collection of comestibles at all times, even if they are foods that I do not like or which are useless for cooking.

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quote:

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Do you then proceed to buy said cheese, or do you compare prices and devise some metric for determining the cost over quality ratio of any given store brand cheese, and then buy according to the most quality for the lowest per-slice price?

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quote:

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This way, I can always be sure of having an attractive collection of comestibles at all times...

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quote:

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Best. Thread. Ever.

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Originally posted by TheQuestioner:
Well..... so much for seeing what you all would say without saying who I was.

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
You Brits and Aussie call everything pudding. In America, 'sticky date pudding' would probably be labeled date bread, or date cake. We think a pudding should be smooth, soft and creamy.

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Originally posted by rivka:
Americans call bread pudding, pudding. It's not smooth or creamy.

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quote:

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Originally posted by TheQuestioner:
Well..... so much for seeing what you all would say without saying who I was.

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quote:

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Originally posted by adenam:

quote:

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Originally posted by rivka:
Americans call bread pudding, pudding. It's not smooth or creamy.

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That's only because they can't pronounce kugel.

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I didn't realize you were an alt for Esther.
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by kmbboots:
Sausage-like meat patties are also pudding.

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quote:

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Originally posted by adenam:
But I learned from Harry Potter that the Brittish used pudding to mean any desert.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lisa:

quote:

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Originally posted by adenam:
But I learned from Harry Potter that the Brittish used pudding to mean any desert.

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Funny. I learned it from Pink Floyd. Probably a generational thing.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:

quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
You Brits and Aussie call everything pudding. In America, 'sticky date pudding' would probably be labeled date bread, or date cake. We think a pudding should be smooth, soft and creamy.

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Do the Brits have a separate word for "real" pudding? (i.e. the soft creamy kind)? If they do (as in crisps, fries and chips), I'll let it slide, but if they seriously use the same word to describe a weird bread-thing as a gloppy tasty goo, that's just ridiculous.

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quote:

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Originally posted by kmbboots:
And would likely just pass the peas.

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quote:

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Originally posted by rivka:

quote:

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Originally posted by kmbboots:
And would likely just pass the peas.

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That's because the way they cook peas, they ARE gloppy goo.

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quote:

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pud

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I read that as mud (which I thinks makes more sense anyway).
 

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Posted by Dead_Horse (Member # 3027) on :
 
I'll have some wingnut cheese and a Yorkshire pudding. I knew those little yapping dogs had to be good for something.
 

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Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
 
Sorry to join this discussion late guys.

I just want to say that I hope that the 9ers do well this year. I'd like to see a game at Candlestick before they move, which it sounds like they will be doing soon.
 

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Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Jamio:
They don't even say the whole word, even. They just say pud. What's for pud? I'm making pud. Pud's on. If that doesn't speak of low standards, I don't know what does.

From now on, all sex is quicky.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Icarus:
::shakes head::

Estos americanos. En Cuba le decíamos al vino vino y al pan pan. Aquí le dicen al pan "bread" y al vino "wine."

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Your in America, speak English!
 

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Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
 
(pssst, speak American!)
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Icarus:
::shakes head::

Estos americanos. En Cuba le decíamos al vino vino y al pan pan. Aquí le dicen al pan "bread" y al vino "wine."

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quote:

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Originally posted by MightyCow:
I really like a good bread pudding, but I wouldn't take one over sweet lovin'.

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Originally posted by Sterling:
I've never had both offered at the same time. They generally seem to come up in wildly different contexts. Perhaps I've been attending the wrong dinner parties.

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And just so you know how much restraint I can exercise, I'm totally not going to try to make a spoonerism about it.

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Originally posted by PSI Teleport:
Trust me, guys. It's far easier to introduce dessert to the sex, not the other way around.

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Fourthed, although I did once have a flourless chocolate expresso torte...

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quote:

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And yet I suspect bread pudding would be few couples' first choice.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Noemon:

quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Fourthed, although I did once have a flourless chocolate expresso torte...

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I take it that Mormons can consume things that have coffee in them as long as they aren't liquids? That's interesting; I'd have assumed that that wasn't the case.

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quote:

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What do they do, eat and perform onanism?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sterling:

quote:

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Originally posted by PSI Teleport:
Trust me, guys. It's far easier to introduce dessert to the sex, not the other way around.

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And yet I suspect bread pudding would be few couples' first choice.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Orincoro:
...perform onanism?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sterling:
Entre el "flan" de Espana y el "Ricardo manchado" de Ingles, prefiero el flan, por supuesto.

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Sterling:
Entre el "flan" de Espana y el "Ricardo manchado" de Ingles, prefiero el flan, por supuesto.

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quote:

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Originally posted by scifibum:

quote:

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Originally posted by Orincoro:
...perform onanism?

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Dreadfully awkward to phrase it that way, don't you think? I'd prefer "onanize."

That way if you say it out loud people will think you have one thing called an "Ize", or that you misapplied the indefinite article to your eyes.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Noemon:

quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Fourthed, although I did once have a flourless chocolate expresso torte...

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I take it that Mormons can consume things that have coffee in them as long as they aren't liquids? That's interesting; I'd have assumed that that wasn't the case.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Orincoro:

quote:

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Originally posted by Sterling:
Entre el "flan" de Espana y el "Ricardo manchado" de Ingles, prefiero el flan, por supuesto.

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He creido que flan era Mexicano, no?

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quote:

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Originally posted by scifibum:

quote:

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Originally posted by Orincoro:
...perform onanism?

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Dreadfully awkward to phrase it that way, don't you think? I'd prefer "onanize."

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quote:

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Originally posted by Orincoro:

quote:

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Originally posted by Sterling:
Entre el "flan" de Espana y el "Ricardo manchado" de Ingles, prefiero el flan, por supuesto.

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He creido que flan era Mexicano, no?

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quote:

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That's because the way they cook peas, they ARE gloppy goo.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Samprimary:

quote:

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Originally posted by Noemon:

quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Fourthed, although I did once have a flourless chocolate expresso torte...

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I take it that Mormons can consume things that have coffee in them as long as they aren't liquids? That's interesting; I'd have assumed that that wasn't the case.

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It's just "hot drinks" with caffeine in them.

Apparently excluding hot chocolate.

Or something.

It's very strangely interpreted.

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quote:

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Originally posted by BlackBlade:

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mucus:
So I guess you can still have iced tea or just simple chilled tea.

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Originally posted by TomDavidson:
I think that's actually the point Mucus was making, rivka: that it's not really up to individual interpretation.

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quote:

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Originally posted by TomDavidson:
I think that's actually the point Mucus was making, rivka: that it's not really up to individual interpretation.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:


I'm still waiting for them to bring around the dessert menu that lists sex as one of the options.

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If I liked sigs, this would be mine.
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
I can't live without tea. I already had to give up coffee...which reminds me. IT'S TEA TIME!
 

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Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
 
BlBl: So if I understand correctly, the temperature thing is only used as short-hand since "hot drinks" was more convenient than "drinks that we normally see as being served hot during this time period such as tea or coffee, regardless of whether they're actually hot when you ingest it"

In other words, there are no current drinks that you can drink cold that you would normally be barred from drinking hot. And it would seem that "new" hot drinks such as ovaltine or hot chocolate which were not commonly present during that time period are in somewhat of an ill-defined state.
 

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Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
 
"I'm still waiting for them to bring around the dessert menu that lists sex as one of the options."

Try Katz's Deli

[ July 23, 2009, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Does red tea have more than one meaning? Several Mormons have specifically told me that rooibos is permitted.
 

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Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
 
There's a mismatch in terms

Under one scheme, the categories are:

code:

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English       "Chinese"
----------------------   
Black Tea     (Hong Cha, literally red tea )
Oolong Tea    (Wulong Cha)
Green Tea     (Lu Cha, literally green tea)
White Tea     (Bai Cha, literally white tea)
Yellow Tea    (Huang Cha, literally yellow tea)
Puerh         (Hei Cha, literally black tea)
Other         (Such as herbal tea)

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quote:

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... The term Orange Pekoe is used in the tea industry to describe a basic medium grade black tea consisting of many single whole tea leaves of a specific size; however, it is popularly used in some regions (such as North America) to describe any generic black tea, and is often treated as a description for the consumer as though it were a specific variety of black tea.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mucus:
rivka: If Wikipedia is to be believed, that would be a tea that would be classified as an English black tea or a Chinese red tea.

quote:

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... The term Orange Pekoe is used in the tea industry to describe a basic medium grade black tea consisting of many single whole tea leaves of a specific size; however, it is popularly used in some regions (such as North America) to describe any generic black tea, and is often treated as a description for the consumer as though it were a specific variety of black tea.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_pekoe

BlackBlade:
Hmmmm. Crummy.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Samprimary:
Or something.

It's very strangely interpreted.

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one page later ..
 

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Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
 
rivka: It would seem from my reading that Orange pekoe IS "black" tea. But rather than being a type of tea in the normal sense of being grown in a specific area and prepared in a specific way, its just a descriptor for all types of "black" tea leaves of a specific size. If that article is to be believed, its completely outside of Chinese/Japanese classifications as in here http://www.o-cha.net/english/cup/pdf/4.pdf
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
So it's all a marketing lie? There's actually no difference between my orange pekoe and the tea that I have called black tea?

I am shocked! And outraged!

Ok, maybe not.
 

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Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
 
Well ... it rather depends on what specifically was given to you as black tea. Maybe I'm not being clear.

Let's compare tea to say, soft drinks.
Saying you have black tea might be like saying you have a cola. Saying you have orange pekoe might be like saying you have a diet cola. They both narrow down the field but in different ways and one is contained within the other. (Of course, IANAE)
 

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Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_tea disambiguation
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
You guys have wondered way way off topic. What does tea have to do with pudding or even dessert? I guess I've seen green tea flavored sorbet, but its hard to think of that as a real dessert.

I guess I should add that there is no real consensus among Mormons about whether using alcohol in cooking or coffee as a flavoring in desserts and candies violates the Word of Wisdom. I am unaware of any official position on the issues and opinions are all over the map.
 

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Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
... What does tea have to do with pudding or even dessert? I guess I've seen green tea flavored sorbet, but its hard to think of that as a real dessert.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
You guys have wondered way way off topic.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:

I guess I should add that there is no real consensus among Mormons about whether using alcohol in cooking or coffee as a flavoring in desserts and candies violates the Word of Wisdom. I am unaware of any official position on the issues and opinions are all over the map.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mucus:

quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
... What does tea have to do with pudding or even dessert? I guess I've seen green tea flavored sorbet, but its hard to think of that as a real dessert.

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I don't know how we got here, but thats just wrong.

Not only on the narrow issue of green tea is there green tea ice cream in normal form or in bar form. In fact, in China McDonald's sells a green tea+green bean sundae.

More generally, bubble tea of various forms, some containing real tea and some not is very very big business.

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quote:

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Originally posted by BlackBlade:
I don't think Mcdonalds was offering that sundae while I was in Taiwan, but maybe they were, I'm not surprised at all that they offer it.

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Bubble tea looks positively disgusting and zhu zhu beads are just gross.

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Don't have to get the beads, they have various jellies now. Best is lychee, IMHO. Its like a whole genre of foods now and saying that you don't like bubble tea is almost like saying you don't like "cake." Technically possible, but pretty unlikely ... and a touch insane

quote:

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I don't know why at least the Taiwanese think red and green bean tastes good with everything, I've said it before, it's like eating soil straight up.

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quote:

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Originally posted by rivka:
It would take a pretty severe alcohol addiction to find vanilla extract remotely drinkable.

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quote:

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Originally posted by BlackBlade:
scifibum: I know you used to be a Mormon, and subsequently it's easier for you to pity us who still are, but I wouldn't say living the Word of Wisdom has made my life very difficult or that somebody ought to see me and think, "poor guy." It's weird but I actually think about rivka almost everytime I eat pork, and think, "I wonder if she knows what she's missing." But then I think, "Probably not, but there is more than enough good food out there that we both can enjoy."

I don't spend alot of time worrying if my food is OK to eat. Certainly not as much as rivka, but I doubt either of us are having a particular hard time living our normal lives.

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Good point. I can drink a beer or have a cup of coffee and be glad that I can enjoy it, but that doesn't necessarily translate into a poorer life for the lack of those particular indulgences.

What I do think is true, however, is that it's not my place or anyone's to nitpick at their personal interpretation of the legitimately gray areas.

So I retract the pity, but stand by the "hey, let them handle tiramisu however they want" stance.
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Mucus:

quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
... What does tea have to do with pudding or even dessert? I guess I've seen green tea flavored sorbet, but its hard to think of that as a real dessert.

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I don't know how we got here, but thats just wrong.

Not only on the narrow issue of green tea is there green tea ice cream in normal form or in bar form. In fact, in China McDonald's sells a green tea+green bean sundae.

More generally, bubble tea of various forms, some containing real tea and some not is very very big business.

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Like I said before, these just aren't real desserts. I'm sorry but they just aren't. They are sort of an asianified perversion of desserts. It's like some one finally noticed that most asian cuisines are really lacking in the dessert arena so they are trying to take good western desserts and add an asian twist and failing pitifully.
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
Dude, uncool. Green tea iced cream and bubble tea are good. Lay off holmes.
 

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Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
 
The Rabbit: I'm pretty sure we were eating desserts when you guys were still banging together rocks and bearskins. I'd say that its actually the West which has perverted desserts
 

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Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by scifibum:

quote:

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Originally posted by BlackBlade:
scifibum: I know you used to be a Mormon, and subsequently it's easier for you to pity us who still are, but I wouldn't say living the Word of Wisdom has made my life very difficult or that somebody ought to see me and think, "poor guy." It's weird but I actually think about rivka almost everytime I eat pork, and think, "I wonder if she knows what she's missing." But then I think, "Probably not, but there is more than enough good food out there that we both can enjoy."

I don't spend alot of time worrying if my food is OK to eat. Certainly not as much as rivka, but I doubt either of us are having a particular hard time living our normal lives.

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Good point. I can drink a beer or have a cup of coffee and be glad that I can enjoy it, but that doesn't necessarily translate into a poorer life for the lack of those particular indulgences.

What I do think is true, however, is that it's not my place or anyone's to nitpick at their personal interpretation of the legitimately gray areas.

So I retract the pity, but stand by the "hey, let them handle tiramisu however they want" stance.

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Thanks. I completely agree with the tiramisu.
 

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Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
 
What makes something a "real dessert", Rabbit?
 

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Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Mucus:
The Rabbit: I'm pretty sure we were eating desserts when you guys were still banging together rocks and bearskins. I'd say that its actually the West which has perverted desserts

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quote:

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Originally posted by BlackBlade:
Psh, no way. You guys simply refuse to move beyond munching on leafs.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mucus:

quote:

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Originally posted by BlackBlade:
Psh, no way. You guys simply refuse to move beyond munching on leafs.

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Ok, that is one dessert "innovation" the West has on us. While we still make desserts mostly from plants, you guys have developed the meat cake.

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I nearly threw up my lunch looking at those pictures Mucus.

Once I found out the icing was mashed potatoes something clicked and I didn't feel so sick.
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by scifibum:
What makes something a "real dessert", Rabbit?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mucus:
The Rabbit: I'm pretty sure we were eating desserts when you guys were still banging together rocks and bearskins. I'd say that its actually the West which has perverted desserts

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Oh, then pray tell me why I can't think of one really good Chinese or Japanese dessert? Why is it that none of the dessert you find on the menu at a chinese restaurant or Japanese restaurant are actually Chinese or Japanese? Explain why it is that French and Viennese pastry shops are opening on ever street corner in Japan but red bean cakes and sticky rice balls just haven"t really caught on in the west?

India and Thailand do have some tasty sweets, but I"ve always figured that was due to the British influence.
 

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Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
 
You have a bigoted palate, Rabbit.


 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by scifibum:
You have a bigoted palate, Rabbit.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Oh, then pray tell me why I can't think of one really good Chinese or Japanese dessert? Why is it that none of the dessert you find on the menu at a chinese restaurant or Japanese restaurant are actually Chinese or Japanese?

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quote:

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Explain why it is that French and Viennese pastry shops are opening on ever street corner in Japan but red bean cakes and sticky rice balls just haven"t really caught on in the west?

---

quote:

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Thats basically an argument from ignorance.

---

Those are the best kind!
 

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Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 
Rabbit: You need to account for the fact that the cultural revolution absolutely devastated Chinese cuisine. Many many dishes that were absolutely unique were completely lost from memory. Only the very popular and more generally appealing dishes have survived. Even in Taiwan, where many dishes have survived, that knowledge is being lost as children do not wish to follow in the culinary footsteps of their fathers.

Furthermore, you need to understand that the Chinese do not have as much of a fixation on sugar as other cultures do. That disinterest strongly informs their dessert options. One of my favorite things to do as a missionary was to get mini recess peanut butter cups from America and give them to children. They thought they were absolutely disgusting, far too much sweetness, the found it astounding that I could eat several at a time, with no apparent ill effect.

At a formal meal, there simply was no room for dessert. Food after food would be brought out, and it was the diversity that was important. Even when discussing the meal, saying, "MMMM this is so good!" does not carry nearly as much weight as, "My goodness, the variety at your table is so extensive!" As a matter of fact the phrase a host or hostess will use to traditionally denigrate the meal and provide you the opportunity to compliment them is "沒什麽蔡" (There's no vegetables). Meat is a sign of wealth in Chinese cooking, extensive and creative use of vegetables is a sign of prowess and adeptness.

But I'll confess, I'm biased against desserts, I just don't really eat them much.

edit: If you're interested. The movie "Eat Drink Man Woman" by Ang Lee (of Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon and Brokeback Mountain) fame, demonstrates traditional Chinese family dynamics, with a specific emphasis on Chinese cuisine. It's one of the best movies ever made IMHO, and the ending is probably the only ending that chokes me up with happiness every time. The food is almost pornographic in it's appeal.
 

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Posted by adenam (Member # 11902) on :
 
What about fortune cookies?

Those are good.
 

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Posted by Tuukka (Member # 12124) on :
 
In my experience desserts in general don't belong to Far-East food cultures. I've been to Japan, South-Korea, China, HK, Malaysia and Cambodia, and in none of those places desserts were ever offered. I dined with local people fairly often, and never saw a dessert on the table.

You might get a non-sweet soup or something similar in the end, but I wouldn't qualify that as a "dessert" anymore than the vodka shot in Russia.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by adenam:
What about fortune cookies?

---

quote:

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Wikipedia says:

The cookies are mostly unknown in mainland China or Taiwan.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mucus:
You're missing a critical difference in culture. Westerners, particularly North Americans, are notably provincial eating only from a small variety of foods. Asians, particularly the Cantonese, are cosmopolitan and will eat pretty much anything once (and dine out often).

We're simply that much more into eating good food and a big variety of it.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Orincoro:
I've come to expect this kind of cultural chauvinism from you, however this generalization doesn't at all match my experience, either as a North American native or a European resident.

---

quote:

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Loblaw is targeting a market whose households spend up to 23 per cent more on groceries than others in Canada, according to data last year.

They are members of the fast-growing South Asian and Chinese Canadian communities, and they account for about one-third – or $5.7-billion – of grocery spending in Toronto and Vancouver, a study last year by market researcher Solutions Research Group found.

It found that South Asian Canadians spend $154 a week on their groceries, or 23 per cent more than an average household in Toronto and Vancouver.

---

quote:

---

Consumers in Asia dine out more frequently than others, but in Hong Kong in particular, nearly one-third eat at a restaurant one or more times every day. Europeans were least likely to go out for a meal, with the Dutch most likely to eat out less than once a month at 57 percent.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Sterling:
Didn't someone post that video a while back that attested they were actually a Japanese-American creation?

---

Yep. Me.

http://www.hatrack.com/cgi-bin/ubbmain/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=054505
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Orincoro:

quote:

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Originally posted by rivka:
It would take a pretty severe alcohol addiction to find vanilla extract remotely drinkable.

---

My sister used to pour vanilla extract into hot cocoa- she was only like ten. I doubt she knew there was even booze in it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mucus:

quote:

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Originally posted by Orincoro:
I've come to expect this kind of cultural chauvinism from you, however this generalization doesn't at all match my experience, either as a North American native or a European resident.

---

You can call it whatever you want, but I'm sorry that reality doesn't match your wishes.

---

quote:

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If its anything like the ones in Canada, you'll find a bewildering array of seafood, meats, vegetables, and pre-prepared food that you'll never find in normal supermarkets. Businesses are already beyond this and know to focus on us as a group.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Synesthesia:
Wait, does that mean if you're mormon you can't use real vanilla es tract?

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Synesthesia:
.

DANG IT! If I had a jar of jelly out all night, (This all fruit stuff) can I still eat it?
Plus it's cold in here and this stuff is 2.39!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mucus:
Orincoro: They're not personal anecdotes. They're studies drawing conclusions based on surveys and statistics. I'm sorry that your background has ill-prepared you to handle the difference.

It would be useful to understand that if a person says something like Americans use more gasoline than Europeans, it does not mean that each and every American uses more gasoline than each and every European. And one doesn't have to personally visit every single country and every neighborhood to verify that. One simply has to look at the data, its right there in the links, stats on international food preferences.

But I tire of you and your narrow-focus on getting offended by my statements out of context. Indeed, even this time I said that the supermarket example is merely "the most superficial level" before going onto the actual data.

If you're seeking to be offended, I won't stand in your way. In fact, I may even encourage it as a good way to release your emotions and whatever problems that are really bothering you.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Glenn Arnold:
Jelly and Jam are known as "preserves." I wonder why?

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Orincoro:
... It's an unprovable hypothesis, and the generalization serves no useful purpose other than to reinforce, once again, your cultural chauvinism.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Mucus:

Plus, I never actually said it was a useful conclusion. Its just the truth.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Jamio:
... I have also had bao that was filled with a struesel-like substance that reminded me of, for some reason, of pineapple.

---

quote:

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One of my favorite things to do as a missionary was to get mini recess peanut butter cups from America and give them to children. They thought they were absolutely disgusting, far too much sweetness, the found it astounding that I could eat several at a time, with no apparent ill effect.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tuukka:
In my experience desserts in general don't belong to Far-East food cultures. I've been to Japan, South-Korea, China, HK, Malaysia and Cambodia, and in none of those places desserts were ever offered. I dined with local people fairly often, and never saw a dessert on the table.

You might get a non-sweet soup or something similar in the end, but I wouldn't qualify that as a "dessert" anymore than the vodka shot in Russia.

---

I'm Chinese-American, with parents who grew up in Cambodia. You probably haven't seen many desserts because they aren't typically offered in a conventional western sense-- in companion to a meal. At least in my experience, "desserts" are mostly eaten as snacks. When my family and I dine in an Asian (Chinese, Vietnamese, Thai and Cambodian places in the LA) restaurant for lunch or dinner, we rarely accompany the meal with a dessert. In many Asian cultures, desserts aren't so much a course in a meal, but simply a category of food... and it's definitely a big part of any Asian food culture that I've encountered.

Here are just a few of the obvious examples of the desserts.

Chinese/Taiwanese/Hong Kong:
Shaved Ice
Moon Cakes
Egg Tart
Buns with Sweet Paste
Rice Cakes
Diversity of Dessert Soups

Vietnamese:
Congee Desserts
Dessert Drinks with Coconut Milk
Black Rice With Shredded Coconut Ex 2
Miscellaneous

Cambodian/Thai:
Fried Bananas
Mango Sticky Rice
Durian Sticky Rice
Banana Leaf Banana Rice
 

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Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
 
Zomg. I've been meaning to make some sticky rice and mango. You, good sir/ma'am, have just encouraged me to do so.

To everyone else in this thread, BOO to all of you. BOO because you have access to cool supermarkets and Asian food and French markets and...stuff. Fort Worth, Texas is the least cosmopolitan city in the universe, and I don't need evidence to back that up. In fact, I refuse to go look for it.

*sulks*
 

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Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
 

quote:

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In short, I'd like ask you: what's eating you?

---

quote:

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Originally posted by MattP:

quote:

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In short, I'd like ask you: what's eating you?

---

Probably an Asian. Westerners are generally too culinarily timid for Orincoro meat.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Mucus:
Orincoro: They're not personal anecdotes. They're studies drawing conclusions based on surveys and statistics. I'm sorry that your background has ill-prepared you to handle the difference.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mucus:

quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Oh, then pray tell me why I can't think of one really good Chinese or Japanese dessert? Why is it that none of the dessert you find on the menu at a chinese restaurant or Japanese restaurant are actually Chinese or Japanese?

---

Thats basically an argument from ignorance. In fact, if you're at a Chinese restaurant where none of the desserts are actually Chinese then that's probably a sign you're at a restaurant for Westerners. In which case, you may as well ask why you can't think of a non-greasy or non-fried Chinese food.

---

quote:

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In fact, in a proper Chinese restaurant the default dessert provided at the end of a dinner is usually red bean based and it should have any number of other desserts based upon red bean, green tea (as BlBl noted), tofu, taro, or lotus. And increasingly, bubble tea at the establishments more aimed at youth.

---

quote:

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Heck, we have a very popular holiday that is effectively devoted to cake.

---

quote:

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Explain why it is that French and Viennese pastry shops are opening on ever street corner in Japan but red bean cakes and sticky rice balls just haven"t really caught on in the west?

---

quote:

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Rabbit: try reading the thread, such as the links he already provided that make direct reference to the marketing studies involved. And we shouldn't be surprised they don't match your own experience since

1) you are outside the norm in many ways

and

2) the numbers found by the marketing studies are trends and tendencies, not hard and fast rules about how everyone behaves.

---

quote:

---

edit: I should also say I think you're both mostly talking past each other. It is entirely possible for urban populations in China and Japan to both dine out and enjoy a greater variety of food and to not have originated any particularly great desserts. For instance. So why one keeps being raised as a counterpoint to the other, I'm not really sure.

---

quote:

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And that Japanese urban residents dine out more I have absolutely no doubts about; there's a reason Tokyo did so amazingly well when Michelin went there.)

---

quote:

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Originally posted by rivka:

quote:

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Originally posted by Synesthesia:
Wait, does that mean if you're mormon you can't use real vanilla es tract?

---

IIRC, it varies.

Anyway, they could always use vanilla beans instead.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by King of Men:

quote:

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One of my favorite things to do as a missionary was to get mini recess peanut butter cups from America and give them to children. They thought they were absolutely disgusting, far too much sweetness, the found it astounding that I could eat several at a time, with no apparent ill effect.

---

This being so, why was that a favourite thing? Did you follow up by pointing out the Bible verse where it's said that the faithful shall be able to drink poison without ill effect? I can see where that would be pretty convincing to someone being exposed to American candy for the first time.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tuukka:
... Personally I would argue that westerners are much more likely to eat Asian food at restaurants, than Asians are to eat western food at restaurants. The reason for this I think is very simple: The Asian restaurants in the west are almost without exception founded by Asian immigrant families, and a lot of western countries have notable Asian immigrant populations.

But on the other hand very few westerners immigrate to Asian countries, and those who do, don't typically want to work in the restaurant business. When you see a western-type "restaurant" in an Asian country, it's likely to be called "MacDonald's", or "Subway".

---

quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Yup, I've had them and they just aren't very good. Yeah, I know that's an objective opinion but I think you will observe its a pretty wide spread objective opinion.

---

quote:

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I've also been informed by several chinese friends that serving any dessert with a Chinese meal is non-traditional and reflects Western influence. A traditional chinese meal is conclude with soup, not a sweet dish. Sweets were something eaten as "snacks" and very rarely as part of a meal.

---

quote:

---

quote:

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Heck, we have a very popular holiday that is effectively devoted to cake.

---

I've had steamed rice cakes. I'm still waiting for a single example of a really good Chinese dessert

---

quote:

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In my experience, with the one exception of desserts, western restaurants are not nearly as common in Asia and Asian restaurants are in the west.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mucus:
I think you've got this exactly backwards. Asian restaurants in the West are very often founded by Chinese immigrant families, true. But watch the Jennifer 8 Lee video from TED linked earlier. You'll find that what they cook has very little similarity to what is eaten in China. What Americans call "Chinese food", note the glaring error with the fortune cookie above by Adenum, is more often than not really just "American" food. Very few Americans actually eat real Chinese food.

This is actually crucial to explain the whole success of "Chinese" food in the West. Each Western country has an adapted "Chinese" food that is really just an adaptation of local cuisine. Jennifer Lee uses the line that "[this] Chinese food is more American than apple pie." Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking it per say. The success of this is a great testament to the adaptiveness and inventiveness of Chinese immigrants, but they rarely actually eat this stuff.

On the other hand, although I've explained a few examples of Western food adapting in China, on the whole they don't (and the few that do, the cha chaan teng's for example are fading out). You can go to even an obscure Chinese city in the Chinese rust belt and it will still have an authentic MacDonalds and KFC serving almost exactly the same food they do in the US. The Daily Show notes this to great effect on their Olympics special.

So on one hand, even the most remote peasant in China will know about American cuisine and will have tried an authentic piece of it, even if just once. On the other hand, as was noted above you can have places like Fort Worth(sic.) as above where you probably can't get authentic Chinese food even if you tried.

There is simply a large informational disparity here.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mucus:
Tuuka noted the differential in immigration. If there are few Western immigrants to, say, China there will naturally only be few Western restaurants for Westerners only. On the other hand, the large immigration flow of Chinese immigrants to North America creates supply and demand for two tracks of restaurants. Western-Chinese restaurants for the local population and Chinese restaurants for the immigrants themselves. This effectively explains the very large difference in restaurant density between the two areas. Not only is does the difference in immigrant populations contribute, but the differing demand.

So I disagree with the explanation for the balance of Western/Asian restaurants, I think immigration explains more than taste. That said, I don't observe a large imbalance between the success of dessert and non-dessert Western restaurants in China. In fact, I would say the top most successful Western food providers are KFC, MacDonald's, Pizza Hut, and Starbucks. There are Haagen-Daz and Dairy Queens for sure, but I don't see them actually doing as well as the first bunch.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Unless I've missed something, which is possible, mucus linked to two articles. One of which quoted data indicating that Asians in Canada spend 23% more on groceries than the average Canadian and the other of which reported that Asians eat out more than Americans and Europeans. Neither article supports mucus' broad contention that Asians are more cosmopolitan in their tastes.

---

quote:

---

There are numerous explanations for this other than those suggested by mucus. For example, I'm not sure about Canada, but in the US Asians have higher average household incomes than other groups which might easily explain why they spend more on average on food.

---

quote:

---

According to my students from Malaysia, Indonesia, India and Thailand, its common in southeast asian cities for people to eat out because they have no kitchen in their homes (apartments). The fact that they eat many or most of their meals out reflects differences in living conditions that have little to do with having more cosmopolitan tastes.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
... If we can't discuss eating habits without getting huffy, is it any wonder people are complaining about the quality of the forum going downhill?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mucus:
]The second also reports that Asians are among the most likely to eat food from a different country when they go out whereas Europeans are the least likely.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mucus:
]No, IIRC, the same study noted that both South Asians and East Asians were more likely than the rest of the population to go to discount supermarkets. Given that US Asians typically have lower obesity levels than the general population, they're probably not simply buying more food at lower prices. The obvious conclusion is that many Asians are either buying a greater variety of food (and exotic foods cost more) or that they're dual-tracking their own kitchens, preparing both their own style of food and North American food.

---

quote:

---

Another example: Chinese households might simply buy more exotic, and therefore more expensive foods. This doesn't mean the variety of food is greater, it simply means it's more exotic.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:

quote:

---

Another example: Chinese households might simply buy more exotic, and therefore more expensive foods. This doesn't mean the variety of food is greater, it simply means it's more exotic.

---

Mucus' original post stated that they Chinese households tend to shop at asian markets which are cheaper per item.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:

quote:

---

Another example: Chinese households might simply buy more exotic, and therefore more expensive foods. This doesn't mean the variety of food is greater, it simply means it's more exotic.

---

Mucus' original post stated that they Chinese households tend to shop at asian markets which are cheaper per item.

---

quote:

---

South Asian and Chinese Canadians account for about one-third, or $5.7-billion, of grocery spending in Toronto and Vancouver, according to market researcher Solutions Research Group. They tend to shop at discount supermarkets. They spend up to 23 per cent more on groceries than others in Canada. Now Loblaw has taken a bigger bite of the market by acquiring T&T. "Good move for Loblaw - it will pay off in the long run," said Kaan Yigit, president of Solutions.

***

TOP SUPERMARKETS

CHINESE - TORONTO

1. No Frills

2. T& T Supermarket

3. Loblaw

4. WalMart

5. Asian Food Centre

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tuukka:
... consumer taste tests have revealed that the reason consumers in China go to McDonald’s is to eat McDonald’s specialties, not simply to eat local-like food."

---

Eh? Thanks, like I said tastes

Look, I've already said that MacDonald's and the like have started adapting, I even gave examples of foods. But that is nowhere in the neighborhood of chicken balls, chop suey, and fortune cookies.
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
I may have misquoted.
 

---

Posted by Tuukka (Member # 12124) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mucus:
Eh? Thanks, like I said tastes

Look, I've already said that MacDonald's and the like have started adapting, I even gave examples of foods. But that is nowhere in the neighborhood of chicken balls, chop suey, and fortune cookies.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rabbit:
I don't know a single mormon who interprets the Word of Wisdom so strictly that they won't eat food flavored with vanilla extract or use extracts and flavorings that contain alcohol. That doesn't mean there aren't any, but they are certainly extremely unusual.

---

quote:

---

But I'm fairly certain that there have been Mormon Hatrack members (maybe no current ones?) who mentioned avoiding extracts for this reason.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tuukka:
I have no idea what you mean with "Eh? Thanks, like I said tastes". Can you be more specific?

---

quote:

---

Anyway, you used MacDonald's and other fast food joints as examples of Asians eating Western food, yet claimed that Asian restaurants in the West can't work as examples of Westerners eating Asian food.

Do you now admit that your argument was incorrect?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mucus:
It is a critical point in my argument that Asian people are going to Western restaurants like MacDonald's to get Western food. The fact that MacDonald's own marketing survey backs this up is just fortuitous. On the other hand, Jennifer 8 Lee's video (and myself) have strongly noted that the reverse is not nearly as true. Americans prefer to go to American-Chinese restaurants to eat foods that bear no similarity to their Chinese counterparts. The video demonstrates this by taking fortune cookies and General Tso's chicken back to China and asking locals what they are. They are understandably baffled.

---

quote:

---

That is neither my argument nor one that I have accepted from someone else. In short, strawman.

---

quote:

---

"I think you've got this exactly backwards. Asian restaurants in the West are very often founded by Chinese immigrant families, true. But watch the Jennifer 8 Lee video from TED linked earlier. You'll find that what they cook has very little similarity to what is eaten in China. What Americans call "Chinese food", note the glaring error with the fortune cookie above by Adenum, is more often than not really just "American" food. Very few Americans actually eat real Chinese food.

This is actually crucial to explain the whole success of "Chinese" food in the West. Each Western country has an adapted "Chinese" food that is really just an adaptation of local cuisine. Jennifer Lee uses the line that "[this] Chinese food is more American than apple pie." Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking it per say. The success of this is a great testament to the adaptiveness and inventiveness of Chinese immigrants, but they rarely actually eat this stuff.

On the other hand, although I've explained a few examples of Western food adapting in China, on the whole they don't (and the few that do, the cha chaan teng's for example are fading out). You can go to even an obscure Chinese city in the Chinese rust belt and it will still have an authentic MacDonalds and KFC serving almost exactly the same food they do in the US. The Daily Show notes this to great effect on their Olympics special.

So on one hand, even the most remote peasant in China will know about American cuisine and will have tried an authentic piece of it, even if just once. On the other hand, as was noted above you can have places like Fort Worth(?) as above where you probably can't get authentic Chinese food even if you tried.

There is simply a large informational disparity here.

---

quote:

---

Of course Asian restaurants in the West work as examples. There's just not a lot of them outside of the areas of high Asian immigration and there aren't that many Westerners eating at them.

---

quote:

---

The popularity of Western fast food brands like MacDonald's in Asia, as opposed to popularity of Asian fast food brands in Western world, doesn't prove that Asians are are more varied and cosmopolitan in their food preferences. It only proves that brands like MacDonald's have more resources, more effective marketing, and more agressive expansion strategies than their Asian counterparts.

That's the most simple, and most obvious answer to the phenomenon.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TomDavidson:
In all fairness, Orincoro, you are also a cultural supremacist. In fact, I'd say you've been considerably worse about it than Mucus has. So why not chill a bit?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rivka:
Rabbit, you obviously would have far more experience with the subject than I would! But I'm fairly certain that there have been Mormon Hatrack members (maybe no current ones?) who mentioned avoiding extracts for this reason. And I found several discussion forums where no-longer-Mormons have complained about their Mormon relatives who won't eat their baked goods for this reason. (I'd link, but that's the sort of place we've been asked not to link to.)

So I have no idea how common it is, but I thought I was safer saying it varied.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Orincoro:
What these Mormons don't realize is that all John Smith was saying about "No Hot Drinks," was that he was tired of being served lukewarm sodas out of the pantry. I mean, these people did migrate to Utah. It's hot there. A prohibition was better than a commandment like: "thou shalt chill thy beverages to a pleasant degree."

---

It's Joseph Smith, and Joseph Smith died before the move to Utah.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
But other than that, he's spot on?
 

---

Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by rivka:
But other than that, he's spot on?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlackBlade:

quote:

---

Originally posted by rivka:
But other than that, he's spot on?

---

Well with the latter point it kinda throws the support structure out from everything else.

---

I'll take solace in the fact that this sentence makes no sense.
 

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Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
 
I always thought the word of wisdom came up because Emma Smith was mad about the men spitting tobacco all over her house. That and drunk Mormons is the streets. Though I have heard that the heavy focus on the word of wisdom was because we got rid of polygamy (kinda a crazy argument, but I guess with only one wife, it is easier to not drink). While the w of w had been around for awhile, supposedly no one cared about it until after polygamy was banned (I don't know enough history to refute or confirm that claim).

As far as vanilla, while I don't personally know anyone, I am almost positive I have read posts on the internet about people refusing vanilla. I don't have a link though- but I remember thinking wow, folks sure are crazy.

ETA- BB- Missouri is awfully hot as well. A chilled drink down there would be nice.
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlackBlade:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Orincoro:
What these Mormons don't realize is that all John Smith was saying about "No Hot Drinks," was that he was tired of being served lukewarm sodas out of the pantry. I mean, these people did migrate to Utah. It's hot there. A prohibition was better than a commandment like: "thou shalt chill thy beverages to a pleasant degree."

---

It's Joseph Smith, and Joseph Smith died before the move to Utah.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by scholarette:

ETA- BB- Missouri is awfully hot as well. A chilled drink down there would be nice.

---

quote:

---

The second also reports that Asians are among the most likely to eat food from a different country when they go out whereas Europeans are the least likely. Combined with a higher rate of going-out in the first place, the conclusion seems to be pretty obvious. There are a lot of Asians eating food from a different country and more of it.

---

quote:

---

Chinese and Italian food—perennial international favourites—are close runners up to local cuisine, with 26% and 17% of the global respondents choosing them as their second favourite choice. Ironically, while 34% of Chinese respondents prefer their local cuisine as their first choice for dining out, 56% say that Chinese cuisine is their second most favourite. And Australians and Singaporeans prefer Chinese food even over their local fare. In Hong Kong, consumers’ first preference is for Japanese cuisine (42%), and in the United Arab Emirates (UAE), the preferred cuisine is Indian (34%). The preferences in Singapore and UAE are likely driven by ethnicity, as Singapore’s population is 75% Chinese and UAE is nearly 50% South Asian. The most patriotic restaurant-goers are the Italians, with 91% saying they prefer their local cuisine, followed by consumers in Turkey (82%) and India (81%).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rabbit:
It's hard to say to what extent Americans have deceived themselves into thinking they have good eating habits and to what extent they consciously lie about it, but either way surveying Americans about their eating habits gives highly inaccurate results.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rabbit:
... It's hard to say to what extent Americans have deceived themselves into thinking they have good eating habits and to what extent they consciously lie about it, but either way surveying Americans about their eating habits gives highly inaccurate results.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rabbit:
From this report, we can conclude that Chinese are more likely to prefer non-local cuisine when they dine out than Italians but less likely than Australians. There is no data that suggest the Asians as a whole are more likely than westerners as a whole to have more cosmopolitan tastes.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rabbit:
You know mal, I grow less and less inclined to believe anything you say about yourself.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rabbit:
You know mal, I grow less and less inclined to believe anything you say about yourself.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tuukka:
Give me a break here. Nearly all the Asian food in Asian restaurants in the Western world is Asian.
...
I can say with absolute certainty that while people I know go to Asian restaurants a LOT, they don't go there so that they can eat fortune cookies. Something like Chicken With Red/Green Curry And Rice is a much more obvious and popular choice. I'm betting it's a popular choice in North-America as well.

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quote:

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And yes, the link I posted says that Chinese go to MacDonald's to "western" food. Just like Westerners go to Oriental restaurant because they want to eat Oriental food. Why would you otherwise go to an Oriental restaurant? People pick a certain kind of restaurant because they want to eat certain kind of food. You don't go to an Italian restaurant, because you really want to eat Chinese food.

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quote:

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The link posted also shows that the MacDonald's food in China and other Asian countries is decidedly different than in the West. Earlier on you claimed it's almost the same, and more authentic than the Asian food in the west. Clearly this is not the case. This has been proven now, by MacDonald's itself.

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quote:

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And I might note that "Americans" make only a portion of the Western world, and their behavior in American-Chinese restaurants in no way is representative of the behavior of the average member of Western culture in an average Oriental restaurant (which might or might not be Chinese).

I assume you have experience of other western countries besides USA and Canada, correct? Because if you don't, I fail to see how you could claim anything about the Western culture in general, unless you can provide statistics.

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quote:

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If in here you were not trying to give an example that Western food in Asian countries is authentic, but Asian food in Western countries is not, then I have no idea what you were trying to say. I literally can't figure it out.

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quote:

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I'm just not sure how your idea would affect the statistics on dining out. I mean, why would Americans be more inclined to lie than citizens in other places of the world*?

* (as opposed to a much more uniform level of lying, pushing down all dining-out statistics)

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quote:

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Maybe that's an uncommonly bad result, or maybe I'm misjudging the actual effect, but I wish my parents had been able to adapt as their children got older.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
[QUOTE] Furthermore, maybe in a rapidly developing country like china, eating out more frequently is prestigious and a sign of affluence, which would make people more likely to exaggerate how frequently they eat out.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tuukka:
... But there is a different angle to interpret the situation: American fast food joints do well in Asia because they are aggressively marketed, and have enormous resources to establish their presence.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
I'd also like to add that I object to calling McDonalds and KFC authentic American cuisine, though I don't know what else you would call them. They certainly aren't like anything my mother or my friends mothers, or me or my friends ever cook in our homes. Its not even particularly similar to food that you would find in any sit down restaurant in America.

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quote:

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Chinese restaurants in the US have failed to change American tastes then I see no problem with this as an explanation for how we have got to this point.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
I'd also like to add that I object to calling McDonalds and KFC authentic American cuisine, though I don't know what else you would call them. They certainly aren't like anything my mother or my friends mothers, or me or my friends ever cook in our homes. Its not even particularly similar to food that you would find in any sit down restaurant in America.

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MacDonald's and KFC are authentic American cuisine because they're basically the most popular cuisine for Americans to eat. They literally call the documentary, "Fast Food Nation."

Also, a Big Mac seems to basically be a standardized ... well, hamburger that one would get from a home BBQ.

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Originally posted by PSI Teleport: Zomg. I've been meaning to make some sticky rice and mango. You, good sir/ma'am, have just encouraged me to do so.

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To everyone else in this thread, BOO to all of you. BOO because you have access to cool supermarkets and Asian food and French markets and...stuff. Fort Worth, Texas is the least cosmopolitan city in the universe, and I don't need evidence to back that up. In fact, I refuse to go look for it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Orincoro:
My opinions used to be quite different, but you don't see me posting about them much anymore, because I'm much more of the mind now that I'm a product of my background, and not a recipient of universal truth.

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Very cool, Ori. It doesn't surprise me in the least that you're experiencing this mental shift.
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 

quote:

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A Big Mac is less similar to a home cooked BBQ hamburger than the typical American Chinese restaurant food is to authentic Chinese cooking.

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quote:

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Even if 1 in 4 Americans eats fast food ever day, that still makes 11 out 12 meals something other than fast food.

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
I disagree on all counts. A Big Mac is less similar to a home cooked BBQ hamburger than the typical American Chinese restaurant food is to authentic Chinese cooking.

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Although most Americans eat their evening meal at home, only one in three actually makes it from scratch, as takeout and convenience foods are becoming increasingly common on the dinner table.

A new study of trends in U.S. food consumption shows made-from-scratch dinners have dropped 7 percent over the last two years and now account for only 32 percent of evening dinners.

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quote:

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The study, published in Food Technology, shows that hamburgers, french fries, and pizza were the top three most popular items ordered in restaurants overall by adult men and women. Men’s favorite order was hamburgers and women favored french fries.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by TomDavidson:

quote:

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Maybe that's an uncommonly bad result, or maybe I'm misjudging the actual effect, but I wish my parents had been able to adapt as their children got older.

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Well, I certainly wasn't having my family meals while contorted into a shiny ball of rage. Maybe it's because I knew how to sit next to my family without hating them.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mucus:
Still trying to find stats on what is the most popular home-cooked meal. Not having much luck.

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Is there something about me that you have grown to dislike so much, that every interaction between us will now contain you reacting with scorn to the things I say? I'm asking this seriously, because I respect you and like to interact with you.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Darth_Mauve:
You notice, they edit out "Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness" in favor of something totally different.

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I guess 'Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor (unless you suspect them of liberalism) wouldn't have really worked with the rest of the t-shirt.
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
I like how the commandments are all "sourced" to him saying things like "you know, there are people who live here other than Christians and maybe we should try to use faith constructively to build bridges instead of burn them" to mean "I'm God."
 

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Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
It's sort of like the Happy Holidays thing. Trying not to exclude other people is somehow actually an attack on Christians.

Apparently, they also feel mortal dread at the idea of non-Christ related ice breakers.
 

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Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by MrSquicky:
It's sort of like the Happy Holidays thing. Trying not to exclude other people is somehow actually an attack on Christians.

Apparently, they also feel mortal dread at the idea of non-Christ related ice breakers.

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quote:

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Originally posted by MrSquicky:
I'll grant that, but, c'mon, everybody gets at least a slight kick out of aggravating those types of Christians.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by BlackBlade:
From time to time I am amused by their behavior, but I'd never do it to their faces just to illicit a response.

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quote:

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I was kind of surprised by this. Even podunk little towns in Kansas are likely to have an Asian grocery store. Not good ones, necessarily, but still. Anyway, I did a little googling, and it looks like there are actually a number of Asian grocery stores in Ft. Worth.

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quote:

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The closest decent Asian food market is in Haltom City, which is on the other side of Ft. Worth. It's a pretty far drive.

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quote:

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Yes, but Bozeman doesn't claim to be metro.

---

Nonsense, Bozeman is the cosmopolitan cultural hub of the Greater Yellowstone region.


 

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Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
 
My metro area only has a population of a million but we do have a few really good Asian markets, and lots of great Asian restaurants. I'm still wanting to try Vietnamese. There are none that I know of in town. But pretty much everything else is here.

The quality of restaurants in a town (as I found from my travels) is almost directly proportional to its population. In NYC or Toronto, nearly every corner restaurant features delicious tasty fresh food prepared well, and wonderful service. In my modest little city we have some pretty good restaurants. In small towns the food tends to be fairly bad. They serve wilted brown lettuce and act like we can't tell the difference? But occasionally you find some gem of a restaurant in a small town that surprises you.

In Waynesboro, Georgia for instance, a tiny town, there's a place called Taylor's Barbecue. If you like southern cooking, it's absolutely wonderful. Man I wish I had some now. Very high carb and high fat but wow they make some fantastic corn fritters. Another one is (was) Warehouse #1 in Monroe, Louisiana. Their hush puppies were so good we couldn't stop eating them. The fried catfish was wonderful there too.

So I guess that goes to show that eating local cuisine might be the best bet in small towns, while in big cities you can try pretty much anything and be in luck.
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 

quote:

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Nor do I. But I enjoy the response when I get it nonetheless.

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I like processed cheese. Whenever I move to new area I buy the store brand american cheese from all the nearby grocery stores so I can tell which one is the best.

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Americans and Canadians do not have access to the beautiful tart, subtle cheeses that make up the world's available quality cheese...

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Brie is congealed boredom. Even the best Brie in the world merely manages to be pleasant. By comparison, a good cheddar is divine.

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This man speaks the truth.
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
The brie one can get in the US is hardly the best example of international cheese making, in part because of what is allowed to get past our border controls. Many cheeses can't come to the US because they are illegal (usually illegally young).

edit: and if you read her post, the other two of the cheeses she mentions are hardly soft cheese such as Brie, so calling out Brie as the example of what she's advocating is rather silly. I would expect both Wensleydale and Double Gloucester to be quite pleasing to the palate of any Cheddar-lover, even if they ended up coming down on the side of Cheddar (and along those lines, I'd have to say I prefer basic Red Leicesters to most basic Cheddars; I haven't sampled enough at the high end of Red Leicester to compare to high end Cheddars).
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
I happen to really like Brie (and I have had the good stuff, in Paris), but I still think a really good Cheddar is superior.

That said, there are a whole LOT of awful, awful cheddars out there. The worst I can say about a mediocre brie is that it's bland; some lousy cheddars are a crime against humanity.
 

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Posted by Bella Bee (Member # 7027) on :
 
Melted goat's cheese, on toasted French bread, with a topping of red onion caramelised in balsamic vinegar = Heaven.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Yes, yes, I deliberately didn't mention the Wensleydale because I happen to like Wensleydale, although not as much as I like a truly good cheddar. But to mention Wensleydale in a sentence meant to imply that it, like Brie, is a good cheese....*shudder*

But, yeah, the typical American "cheddar" is a crime against humanity. That's hardly fair, though; it's like impugning Swiss cheese because Kraft or Sargento make Swiss slices that somehow manage to taste like fermented wax.

(Note: I am a total cheese nerd. But I am a sharp cheese nerd. The first time I visited Paris, on the very first day I was in Paris, I rushed to one of Frommers' favorite fromageries just to see exactly how different European raw milk cheeses were from American ones. The answer: different, but not sufficiently better to make soft cheese worth the purchase.)
 

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Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
 
Just because Brie is a soft, mild cheese, doesn't mean it's boring. You clearly just don't like soft cheese.

My true, non-flippant, point is, cheddar isn't the only cheese in the world. There are zillions of cheeses quite similar to cheddar that aren't cheddar. There are about five that show up again and again: Brie/Camembert, Cheddar, Gouda, a blue cheese, the very occasional Edam etc. Where are all the others? Cheese is more expensive in Canada than it is in England, too.

I'm not against Cheddar; I eat it frequently. But I'm against the total monotonous domination of the cheese market by Cheddar. [url\http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheddar_cheese]According to Wikipedia[/url], this is due to the British Government and WWII.

Tom, since you come from cow country, you probably have access to cheaper and more diverse cheese, but the fact that you can* come up with several (hundred) different types of cheddar instead of all different diverse types of cheese is sad-ish (although clearly you can get Wendsleydale-- which I can't )

I'm just bitter because I just got back from Cheese Country and I'm back to the same old five substandard cheeses.

*that is to say, you choose to come up with.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 

quote:

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the fact that you can* come up with several (hundred) different types of cheddar instead of all different diverse types of cheese is sad-ish

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Originally posted by fugu13:
The brie one can get in the US is hardly the best example of international cheese making, in part because of what is allowed to get past our border controls. Many cheeses can't come to the US because they are illegal (usually illegally young).

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quote:

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you can still get brie on par with anyone else's brie here in the united states.

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
He said it was extremely authentic as were most chinese restaurants in Toronto.

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He also agreed with my other Chinese friends assessment that you can very frequently get better Chinese food in North America than you find in China.

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.. the principal obstacle to improving Chinese fare here is the difficulty of getting visas for skilled workers since 9/11. Michael Tong, head of the Shun Lee restaurant group in New York, has said that opening a major Chinese restaurant in America is next to impossible because it can take years to get a team of chefs from China. Chinese restaurateur Alan Yau planned to open his first New York City restaurant last year but was derailed because he was unable to get visas for his chefs.
...
When authentic Chinese cuisines reach our shores, we can expect a revolution in ingredients and styles that will change the way we prepare food for years to come. Look how quickly our taste for offal, sous-vide cooking and tasting menus have grown. We have a much more ambitious dining culture today than we did 150 years ago.

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The visa restrictions have had an impact on quality, the owner of the Shun Lee Palace, Michael Tong, said, pointing to what he called the decline of good Chinese food in the city over the past 30 years.

"It's difficult for top Chinese chefs to get to America, and with a booming Chinese economy they don't need to leave," he said.

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... and because one can find foods from all regions of China in north American cities where as in China one tends to find regional dishes only in their region.

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Originally posted by fugu13:
You can only get the very best, freshest brie illegally (not that it is very hard to do so).

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Your hypothetical Chinese friends would greatly disagree with my friends (bosses, work colleagues).

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Sorry, but this is just wrong. Going back a dynasty or two, Beijing food has always been an amalgamation of various regional dishes due to officials and trade going to the imperial court. Hong Kong has it to a lesser extent as well due to rather more forced immigration. Market reforms since the 80s have contributed to this trend in other major cities.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Perhaps your command of the English language is weak and you meant to say that you doubt that I actually had lunch two weeks ago in Toronto with a Chinese colleague and that we actually had this conversation -- but that isn't what hypothetical means.

---

Sure, attack the language. Classy

But seriously, hypothetical is the best word I can think of to describe what I think is happening here. I don't doubt that you had lunch with a Chinese colleague and I don't doubt that you "think" you got agreement with your points.

But I also know that you're dead wrong and the description of a Hong Kong native that would claim that the food in Toronto outranks that in Hong Kong itself is so foreign to my experiences, the best explanation is that your perception of events has totally separated from the reality of what happened.

In any culture, one can use leading questions to get the answers that one wants, but this is especially true in Chinese culture. I am told that this actually happens quite often.

For example,

quote:

---

Sometimes foreigners feel like their Chinese friends lie to them. They say they agree even when they don’t, and reply, “OK” even when they mean, “Not really.” Even if the foreigner later realizes that their Chinese friends didn’t intend to disrespect them, the foreigner might then feel like Chinese politeness requires lying. Chinese cultural expectations sometimes seem to demand a daily dose of “white lies” and multiple possible meanings to the word “yes.”

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quote:

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I hope you will understand why I'm not going to take the word of some one on the internet who claims to be a 2nd generation Chinese immigrant living in Canada over what I have been told many times by the numerous 1st generation Chinese friends and colleagues I know in real life.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Toronto and Vancouver aren't the only places in north America with large Asian populations. San Francisco, New York, Seattle, Portland, San Jose, and even Chicago have significant numbers of Asian residents. The state of California is nearly 15% Asian.

---

Contrary to popular perception, Asians are not interchangeable

Technically, British Columbia is 9.66% Chinese whereas California is only 3% Chinese. Ontario as a whole is more comparable at 4.8% Chinese but as I've noted before we're very concentrated in Toronto (Markham and Richmond Hill to be exact).

But I think a city level is more relevant and going through the list, little else really compares.

Toronto is at 537,000 and Vancouver is at 402,000. New York is at 361,000 (but less than half percentage-wise compared to Toronto*) and San Francisco is already a big drop at 152,000 (albeit with a percentage similar to Vancouver which is heartening).

Everything else is pretty small fry.

Anyways for arguments sake, let's say I grant you these two cities which are already both a step down. This is still hardly representative of the American experience!

(God, I wish it was though. No 8 years of Bush, no Iraq War ...)

I would also note that the differences between the Canadian policy of multiculturalism versus the US melting pot and the much more intense Canadian immigration policy also play a role.
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 

quote:

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But seriously, hypothetical is the best word I can think of to describe what I think is happening here. I don't doubt that you had lunch with a Chinese colleague and I don't doubt that you "think" you got agreement with your points.

---

quote:

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But I also know that you're dead wrong

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quote:

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and the description of a Hong Kong native that would claim that the food in Toronto out ranks that in Hong Kong itself is so foreign to my experiences, the best explanation is that your perception of events has totally separated from the reality of what happened.

---

Get off your high horse. Being the son of Chinese immigrants doesn't make you an expert on the opinions of everyone from China or even Hong Kong. You aren't the only one here who knows many first generations immigrants from China. Your experiences are simply quite different from mine. I don't doubt that your Chinese friends and acquaintances get nostalgic about the food back home, that's pretty typical immigrant behavior. But its really insulting for you to say you can't believe anyone from Hong Kong or China might behave differently from your friends and that I must be deluded in some fashion if I report anyone from China behaving differently from your circle of aquaintances. If you had been there when I ran into a former student from Beijing at a scientific meeting, how would you have interpreted it when I asked him how he liked living and working Manhattan and he went on and on about how the Chinese food in Manhattan was better quality and more varied than he could get in Beijing. I never even asked about food, or restaurants or the chinese community -- Just "How do you like living in Manhattan". How would you have interpreted it if you had been in my office when a Chinese friend from Hongzhou dropped in to tell me I needed to try a new chinese restaurant she'd discovered where the cooking was even better than her mother's. (BTW this same friend often waxes poetic about her mother's cooking and even invited me to dinner when her mother visited the US so I could see what she was talking about.) And I wasn't asking her for restaurant recommendations or seeking her opinion on the local food, she knows I'm a bit of a food and came to share her enthusiasm.

And yes, the "if you had been there part" is hypothetical, but the rest of those situations are not. They really happened and my report of them is very accurate. If you can't even imagine that these events happened as I described them, then your imagination is sorely lacking.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
This may be the funniest thing I've ever seen you get angry about, Rabbit. I mean, seriously, take a step back for a second and look at this conversation. It's hilarious as all heck.
 

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Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 
I keep wanting to step in, but then I keep realizing I should just watch.
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
Please enjoy yourselves. I'm not actually angry at all. This argument is purely for sport. Any one interested in fighting about cheese?
 

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Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
Oh, The Rabbit, you poor deluded thing. Watching you pretend to know Chinese people just so you can feel better about yourself is just so sad!


Please, please, try to resign yourself to being so much less cosmopolitan than Mucus.
 

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Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Please enjoy yourselves. I'm not actually angry at all. This argument is purely for sport. Any one interested in fighting about cheese?

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Samprimary:

quote:

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Originally posted by fugu13:
You can only get the very best, freshest brie illegally (not that it is very hard to do so).

---

It tends to be remarkably easy here.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by BlackBlade:

quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Please enjoy yourselves. I'm not actually angry at all. This argument is purely for sport. Any one interested in fighting about cheese?

---

All I'll say is, I've had Chinese food in many places in the US, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Mainland China, and Taiwan, but never Canada. Taiwan wins so far hands down.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Teshi:
It's probably just Canadia then.

Man, my frivolous comment is really much more dangerous than I thought it was going to be.

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You CAN find Wensleydale.

---

I've had Real Yorkshire Wensleydale in England and it's an OK cheese, but I didn't find it all that distinctive. A bit of a disappointment really considering all the hype I heard. Maybe a mature Wensleydale would be more to my liking.

I know that you can find a good variety of cheeses in the US but I've spent too much time in Europe to think there is even a comparison. In North America, good cheeses are over priced and you have to hunt to find them.

Where I work when I'm in Germany, there is a farmers market twice a week with around two dozen cheese vendors, each of whom has an assortment of cheese superior to your typical gourmet cheese shop in North America. Cycling across France I can't tell you how many times we've rolled into some town barely big enough to support a supermarket, and found the supermarket stocked with a mind boggling variety of regional specialty cheeses along side reasonably priced cheese from every corner of Europe.

If you search hard enough you can find very good cheeses in the states. The variety of cheeses available in your typical US supermarket has come along way since my child hood when cheddar, velveta and american processed cheese slices were all that was commonly available and even swiss, monterey jack and mozzarella were considered a bit like specialty items.

But lets not pretend that the US is even in the same league with Europe when it comes to cheese. We just aren't.
 

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Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
 
Oh, I'm not arguing that it's easier in North America (Canuck here ). I used to refer to the cheese wall at Marks & Spencer as The Magical Wall of Cheese. When people make jokes about British food, I always tell them about the magical things Europeans (Brits included) do to dairy products. (I never understood the fuss people made over butter till I had Normandy butter... *drool*)

But it's not impossible to find good cheese in Toronto, and since Teshi was lamenting not being able to find it, I figured I'd share where I knew it was available.
 

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Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by BlackBlade:
All I'll say is, I've had Chinese food in many places in the US, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Mainland China, and Taiwan, but never Canada. Taiwan wins so far hands down.

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Saying something is "hypothetical" means it is purely made up or imagined. Hypothetical is the opposite of "factual", "concrete" and "real".

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... I can't see how you have any authority by which to make the claim that I am dead wrong about what was said by my colleague over lunch.

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Get off your high horse.

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I don't doubt that your Chinese friends and acquaintances get nostalgic about the food back home, that's pretty typical immigrant behavior.

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tire of this. I'm not attached to the word. Come up with a word that is in the middle and describes a situation properly and I'll consider it in good faith. I tire of your playing with words when the meaning is clear.

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quote:

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But the proposition that the US, a place which in total has less Chinese people in total than even a second-rate Chinese city has the best Chinese food (or variety) is just absurd. Even the restaurant owners and reviewers from NYC that I linked to earlier accept that American Chinese food is second-rate.

---

quote:

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1. The Chinese population in Manhattan includes people from every region of China.

---

quote:

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2. The Chinese population in Manhattan is more diverse than the chinese population you would typically find in a Chinese city.

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quote:

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3. A more diverse population will typically lead to more diversity in the the types of foods and the kinds of restaurants available

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quote:

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Chinese restaurants in Manhattan offer a wider variety of Chinese cuisines and regional specialties than one can find in most Chinese cities

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A first rate chinese chief in Toronto has access to higher quality ingredients than what is generally available in China. So a first rate chief Chinese chief in Toronto will make be able to make better quality dishes than if he were in China

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quote:

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Originally posted by dkw:
Anecdotal.

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How do you go about buying cheese on the black market?

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In my case, it's indirect. You know the doofballs who know the people who make the cheese. That, or you ask someone to bring it back with them.

Easier to get than ILLEGAL BACK-ALLEY BRIES: european absinthe, pot.
 

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Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
 
I'd just like to mention that Empire of China Restaurant down the street has excellent Mongolian chicken. And fried rice.

Oh, and the spring rolls are simply delicious.


 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 

quote:

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I can't come up with a word for what you mean because I haven't a clue what you might mean by calling my story a "hypothetical situation". My best guess was that you were accusing me of making it up, but you say that wasn't your intent. I don't have a second guess. Its not my responsibility to clearly communicate your ideas.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by kmbboots:
Raymond, it isn't so much that he used the wrong word as that he is pretty much calling The Rabbit a liar.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Mucus:
... I don't doubt that you had lunch with a Chinese colleague and I don't doubt that you "think" you got agreement with your points.

But I also know that you're dead wrong and the description of a Hong Kong native that would claim that the food in Toronto outranks that in Hong Kong itself is so foreign to my experiences, the best explanation is that your perception of events has totally separated from the reality of what happened.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
I don't know if Mucus is BSing the "chinese people will agree with you out of politeness" thing

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quote:

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That is the point with which Mucus could be calling Rabbit a liar ...

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quote:

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Originally posted by kmbboots:
"Confabulation" means that she was making it up.

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quote:

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Originally posted by kmbboots:
If not lying than delusional. Or stupid.

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quote:

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Originally posted by kmbboots:
Why is it that you are more of an expert on The Rabbit's friends than she is?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mucus:

quote:

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Originally posted by kmbboots:
Why is it that you are more of an expert on The Rabbit's friends than she is?

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Why do you think that it is necessary to be an expert on The Rabbit's friends in order to give only one example of a way in which The Rabbit may have miscommunicated with them?

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quote:

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You are essentially claiming to be a better judge of the motives of her friend - whom you've never met - based on a broad cultural generalization. Do you not see how this can come off as being offensive?

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Mucus never claims know what Rabbit's friends were thinking. He merely states a way in which Rabbit may have been misinterpreting them, and because his own experience deviates significantly from Rabbits, he finds it more likely that Rabbit miscommunicated with her friends than that he is wrong. For the most part, I honestly think he communicated that fairly politely, whether or not his opinion is rooted in cultural chauvinism.

I don't know who started the argument and where the burden of proof lies, but claiming that either side has any particular moral high ground at this point seems profoundly silly to me. I also think that, by American standards, "Rabbit might be misconstruing what his friends said" is far less offensive than "Mucus is lying and delusional and stupid." Although that line was said by a third party who you (Rollainm) have not specifically condoned.
 

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Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
 
You are right, Raymond. I shouldn't have said "know". But even the suggestion can easily be take as offensive when it implies greater trust in a generalization than in The Rabbit's communication skills or honesty of her friend. Let me be clear, though, that I'm not trying to dogpile you here, Mucus. I do understand where you're coming from, your frustration with these responses, and why you've reacted the way you have.
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
If Rabbit had been discussing something far more personal or important with her friends, I'd consider this insulting. Given that this should be a fairly low key discussion about which food is better, and that Mucus did provide a link to back up his argument, it seems to me that if Rabbit feels Mucus is being unfair, a proper response would be either "um, I think I know my friends just fine, thank you and have a nice day," or to go back to said friends, talk to them some more about this discussion and clarify that Mucus' generalization doesn't apply here.

But getting indignant and offended and launching into a full scale attack on Mucus seems way out of proportion to me.
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
You know, my original contention was simply that I know Chinese people who don't agree with Mucus and I gave some examples to illustrate that.

I may being missing Mucus' point entirely but he seems to be saying that I'm either making up these stories, have seriously misunderstood the what my friends said or my Chinese friends are all liars. And since he knows nothing at all about the events in question except what I have said, I can't see why he would doubt their accuracy other than that he's found me to an insufferable liar in the past (which I don't think is the case) or that he finds it unimaginable that anyone Chinese would disagree with him on this issue.

And that is an extremely arrogant assumption, hence my telling him to get of his high horse. If he had claimed that my Chinese friends aren't representative of the majority of Chinese immigrants that would be one thing, and it might even be true, but insisting that my stories couldn't possibly be true is quite another.

But even this is a digression from my original point which I believe was

There isn't a single decent Chinese cheese.

[ October 01, 2009, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
 

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Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
 
rollainm:
Thank you, I appreciate it.

And in response to your initial question, no, I did not consider it (and I personally have little reason to think that this is due to any cultural difference).
 

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Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
 
Raymond, I haven't commented on the correctness of The Rabbit's response to Mucus, but I don't think it really has anything to do with my point anyway.
 

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Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
... he seems to be saying that I'm either making up these stories, have seriously misunderstood the what my friends said or my Chinese friends are all liars.

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quote:

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This makes her a fantastic “undercover foreigner” in the sense that she can hang out with Chinese people and they’ll treat her more or less as a cultural insider. She reports that the number one complaint her Mainland friends have against their foreign friends is that foreigners too often think Chinese people are lying to them, when they’re actually being extra considerate to the foreigners.

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quote:

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Chinese typically express more of their meaning through nonverbal signals than Westerners do – especially Americans. We all make regular use of both verbal and nonverbal forms of communication, but comparatively, Americans are more “tuned in” to the words; Chinese are more tuned in to nonverbal channels.

A style of communication that especially emphasizes nonverbal signals makes it easy to clearly communicate a meaning that is different or opposite of the words’ literal meaning. To Americans, who focus relatively more on the literal meaning and fail to “hear” many of the nonverbal cues, this can easily look like lying.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
... unimaginable that anyone Chinese would disagree with him on this issue.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mucus:
... the best explanation is that your perception of events has totally separated from the reality of what happened.

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quote:

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There isn't a single decent Chinese cheese.

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quote:

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If Rabbit had been discussing something far more personal or important with her friends, I'd consider this insulting. Given that this should be a fairly low key discussion about which food is better, and that Mucus did provide a link to back up his argument, it seems to me that if Rabbit feels Mucus is being unfair, a proper response would be either "um, I think I know my friends just fine, thank you and have a nice day," or to go back to said friends, talk to them some more about this discussion and clarify that Mucus' generalization doesn't apply here.

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quote:

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The best brie is made from unpasteurized milk and is not legal to sell in the US.

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quote:

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Of course not.
We're like lactose intolerant (in general, not specific) and if you really think about it, milk in the way we consume it is pretty weird anyways

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Not an excuse. The lactose content of cheeses is typically very low. In fact, it has been postulated that lactose intolerance is why cheeses were developed in the first place.

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quote:

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And drinking milk isn't objectively any weirder than an awfully lot of the things people eat. Fermented eggs? Rotten cabbage? Plants that are poisonous unless they are properly pre-processed? Poisonous insects? Honey? Tree sap? Tree bark? Live maggots?

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quote:

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I don't think Mucus meant to insult your intelligence or doubt your honesty. Just to frame an interpretation of your experiences in a way that makes sense within the context of his own experience and study, which otherwise seems too dissonant.

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quote:

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Originally posted by scifibum:
Oh, I think all Mucus meant was "dead wrong" was that Toronto has better Chinese food. Since you pretty much got behind this opinion he was saying he emphatically disagrees with you.

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quote:

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Originally posted by scifibum:
Oh, I think all Mucus meant was "dead wrong" was that Toronto has better Chinese food. Since you pretty much got behind this opinion he was saying he emphatically disagrees with you.

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quote:

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Was it really irrational of me to presume he was accusing me of making the whole thing up, of lying to make a point in this discussion?

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quote:

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Originally posted by scifibum:
BTW, wanted to check:

quote:

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The best brie is made from unpasteurized milk and is not legal to sell in the US.

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I have seen raw milk cheese for sale out in the open in a grocery store. Probably about a month ago.

Which is more likely?
1) Some kinds of raw milk cheese are illegal to sell in the US but not others.
2) The store was selling contraband cheese out in the open.
3) The cheese was mislabeled.
(edit:)4) It's not actually illegal to sell raw milk cheese in the US.

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quote:

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According to federal law, raw milk cannot be transported across state lines with the intent of human consumption. Unpasteurized cheeses are actually legal, as long as they have been aged at least 60 days in an environment held at 35 degrees Fahrenheit (1 degree Celsius). During the aging process, the cheese becomes more acidic, killing most potential sources of bacterial infection.

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quote:

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Originally posted by rivka:
Unless it's made here, presumably.

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quote:

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Well it isn't real French Brie if its made here. There might be a pretty good facsimile of french brie made some where in the US. But pretty much by definition, if its made here it ain't real French Brie.

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quote:

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There is a certain irony here, and I can't tell whether it was intentional.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
But France has all kinds of laws that define very specifically what foods can be called genuine french X, and to be called Brie, it doesn't simply have to be made in France -- it has to be made in a particular region of france.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Not really. I am unaware of any standards that restrict what can be called genuine Chinese cuisine. But France has all kinds of laws that define very specifically what foods can be called genuine ...

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quote:

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Officials in Tokyo, concerned that diners around the globe are getting a less-than-genuine taste of their nation's cuisine, are devising a sort of bureaucratic Zagat guide that will confer a stamp of authenticity on restaurants that meet the government's standards.

In California, where Asian cuisines are mixed and matched in a blender of ethnicities and subcultures, the plan could be a recipe for contention. Only about 10% of the state's 3,000 Japanese restaurants are Japanese-owned, with many now operated by Koreans, Chinese and Vietnamese.

That has left some local restaurateurs wondering whether nationality could become a litmus test for authenticity.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jhai:
But there are certainly enough Chinese immigrants in the whole of the Bay Area to support a few world-class Chinese restaurants.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
... you can very frequently get better Chinese food in North America than you find in China.

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quote:

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He said this was both because better quality ingredients are available in North America and because one can find foods from all regions of China in north American cities where as in China one tends to find regional dishes only in their region.

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quote:

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New York may be a foodie paradise, but it’s also full of food deserts. So says the city’s planning department, which last year reported that some three million New Yorkers live in neighborhoods with few fresh food options. Traditional groceries and supermarkets have shut down, to be replaced by fast food and drug store chains.
...
The government’s involvement in turn reflects a cultural value. As I toured the wet markets with my 20-something translator and her 73-year-old grandmother, the older woman explained: it’s the freshness that supermarkets couldn’t beat. Hong Kong’s Cantonese cuisine (much lighter than what you’ll find in most American Chinese restaurants) depends on fresh ingredients, and local standards are high. The grandmother pointed out what “fresh” meant: live fish, not chilled; poultry still warm from slaughter; vegetables not wrapped in plastic.

Marketing studies back up this explanation. They also note that wet-market standards of freshness will likely survive the recent privatization, even if some of the markets do not.

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quote:

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This little town, a 90-minute train ride west of Shanghai, is a world away from Georgia. There's no Peachtree Street, no peach pie, no peach ice cream. About all Yangshan has are the juiciest, most delicious peaches on earth.
...
Yet in an age when Australian lamb and Kobe beef from Japan wing their way around the world, most Asian fruits remain thousands of miles from U.S. kitchens.
...
In the U.S., peach technology produces a very different product. "It's unfortunate that many of our peaches are bred to have superior shelf life and exterior color," says Karen Caplan, chief executive of Frieda's Inc., a Los Alamitos, Calif., high-end distributor of imported and domestic produce. "The growers don't focus on flavor. They refrigerate them in transit, put them on the shelf, and they go mealy."

"The whole fruit industry in this country is about decorating stores," says John Driver, a Modesto, Calif., apricot grower who sends his fruit to farmers markets around San Francisco. "They're looking for size, color and hardness, but people don't want to eat the things."

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http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203946904574300192082040918.html

I could probably find more, but thats what I have come across in recent memory.
 

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Posted by malanthrop (Member # 11992) on :
 
We've gone past cigarettes and moved on to soft drinks as the demon of national health, next is cheese. Cheese lovers, get ready to pay your fair share.
 

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