Would you eat the pot roast that got luke warm from it being open?
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
How many hours and how warm?
Hobbes Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I am not sure. It could have been out from 2am-8am the way that fridge is. And it was pretty warm, so was the 1 percent milk I accidentally bought but I WANT to get rid of that and not this perfectly good but a bit tough pot roast.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
If it were reheated to somewhere around boiling, I would have no qualms eating it.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
I'd be all right if you went to 165 degrees personally.
Hobbes Posted by Team 2012 (Member # 12025) on :
The Brits hang meat up until it rots to make it better eating. I've seen neibhbors leave meat or a bird hang on a porch for days.
In the third world, food sits out in street stalls all day, often at high temperature, often strafed by flies. It doesn't make it kill people.
Actually, the food to be afraid of is eggs. People have died from mayonaise or potato salad sitting out all day at Fourth of July picnics.
There's a lot more latitude in hygiene than squeaky-clean American sanitation ideas prepares us for.
[ April 18, 2009, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: Team 2012 ]
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
So does that mean I should throw out these eggs that were sitting out for hours?
Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
quote:Originally posted by Team 2012:
In the third world, food sits out in street stalls all day, often at high temperature, often strafed by flies. It doesn't make it kill people.
And the foodborne illness rates in those countries are astronomical.
quote:Actually, the food to be afraid of is eggs. People have died from mayonaise or potato salad sitting out all day at Fourth of July picnics.
Actually, eggs are pretty safe. Mayonnaise sauces can be a problem. And people seldom *die* from any foodborne illness. Only those with debilitating conditions or other health problems usually even require medical attention.
However, Staphylococcal or Bacillus intoxication can be pretty unpleasant and is not to be taken lightly. The recommendations we make are that if the food is warmer than 45 degrees F for longer than 4 hours, it's best to discard it. If the roast has gravy with it, it will be more of a risk than if it's dry. Also, heating will not destroy the toxins that have developed, so reheating is not a guarantee of safety in this instance.
Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
Don't worry about eggs in the shell. As long as the shells are intact, they should be fine.
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
I would just throw away the entire fridge.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elmer's Glue: I would just throw away the entire fridge.
That could work. But it's so heavy
Ok, so I can make brownies, but I better throw away that expired chicken, the milk, the old ham and all of that.
But not that juicy juice that was watered down.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
juicy juice is so much better than the rubbery, pithy, and crunchy kinds.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:The Brits hang meat up until it rots to make it better eating.
You make it sound like it happens all the time. O.o
Posted by Godric 2.0 (Member # 11443) on :
I'm with Team 2012. I've had raw fish (sushi), hamburger (tartare), ceviche, bacon (really, it's safe, it's been cured), prosciutto and pancetta*. I've also finished off leftover casseroles a week later after sitting out overnight before initial refrigeration (in fact, I find casseroles get better over time).
The only times I ever got sick (twice had food poisoning) was from fast food.
*There's plenty of raw meats/dishes I want to try: Mett, Yukhoe, Çiğ köfte, Kibbeh nayyeh, Crudos, and my possibly my favorite dish name ever, Gored gored.
Posted by Darth_Mauve (Member # 4709) on :
mayo, that is professionally manufactured uses pasteurized eggs so is fine to sit in a warm area. Its the home-made, real mayo and other raw egg concoctions that are the danger.
Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
Actually, the problem is that any high protein/high fat dressing can be a vehicle for bacterial growth if it is not handled properly. So if your potato salad gets contaminated and is left at "incubation" temperatures for any length of time, the bacteria will grow and likely produce toxins that will make you sick. Homemade mayo and raw egg concoctions have the added risk of Salmonella contamination in addition to being a good food source for Staph, Bacillus, or Clostridium perferinges.
quote:The only times I ever got sick (twice had food poisoning) was from fast food.
To be honest, unless you had laboratory confirmation or were involved in a large scale outbreak, I have absolutely no confidence that you really know WHAT caused your illness. Most people don't. It's seldom what you think. Even if it's the last thing you ate/the only thing you had to eat ALLLL day/the only thing you ate that your family didn't etc, there's still no way of knowing without lab testing or an extensive epidemiological investigation.
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: So does that mean I should throw out these eggs that were sitting out for hours?
One of the mild shocks I got in New Zealand was that as a manner of course, eggs were offered in a non-refrigerated section of supermarkets.
Near as I can tell, as long as their shells are unbroken and it's not long after they were brought to market, eggs should be safe. Though I think being kept at room temperature may bring out some of the more "eggy", sulphurous flavors in eggs.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
I wouldn't eat stuff that I was afraid might be spoiled. Why take a risk? Getting food poisoning is no joke, and it's certainly not worth the $20 or whatever it is the food cost you. Throw it away!
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
Just give it to the homeless. They have a tolerance to spoiled food.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Near as I can tell, as long as their shells are unbroken and it's not long after they were brought to market, eggs should be safe.
In Europe, Australia and many other parts of the world, eggs aren't kept refrigerated. I'm not sure why Americans refrigerate eggs, it appears completely unnecessary.
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
If eggs are clean from the time of production, they don't need to be washed, and thus retain the natural coating over the shell that protects the contents from contamination. Washing removes dirt and bacteria from the shell, but it also removes the protection and, depending on the washing method, sometimes the dirty water can get through the porous shell. I have been told that eggs are recoated with something after washing, but I've only heard that from one person so I don't know how true that is. American eggs are always washed before they get to the store, so they really should be refrigerated. Clean, unwashed eggs will usually stay good at room temperature (60F-70F) for at least a month after laying, in my experience.
--Mel
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
In chemistry I was taught that all chemical reactions run roughly twice as fast for every 10 degrees C hotter the reactants are. So that means if the fridge is about 1C, and the room is about 31C then things age 8 times faster at room temp than in the fridge. (That would be a conservative estimate.) So if your fridge was open overnight, say 12 hours, then that's the equivalent of having left the food in the fridge for 4 days. Picture what shape the food would be in by then, and that will tell you.
I sure wouldn't eat it. Why risk it? To save money? Being really really sick is not worth that. One trip to the doctor would cost more than you save, not to mention the hit points to your health, which are worth a huge amount.
[ April 19, 2009, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: Tatiana ]
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
I have noticed that some people from other parts of the country are less careful about food poisoning than we are here. That's probably because room temperature here in the southeastern US is typically somewhat higher than it might be in other places. If you use 21C for your room temperature (which is not conservative here) then things only age 4 times as fast. I still would not touch many things left in the fridge for 2 days, but other people may have had fewer bad experiences with that than we generally get around here.
But I mean Alton Brown is crazier about food safety than I am. After washing his hands he turns the water off with an elbow, so as not to contaminate his clean hands by touching the faucet handles. He did convince me to keep a cooler in my car in which to put milk, eggs, cheese, any refrigerated foods, for the trip home.
Hey, if Alton Brown says it, and my mom and grandma say it, then I believe it. That plus several near-death experiences with food poisoning keep me convinced that I don't want to risk eating any bad food.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
quote:Originally posted by maui babe:
quote:The only times I ever got sick (twice had food poisoning) was from fast food.
To be honest, unless you had laboratory confirmation or were involved in a large scale outbreak, I have absolutely no confidence that you really know WHAT caused your illness. Most people don't. It's seldom what you think. Even if it's the last thing you ate/the only thing you had to eat ALLLL day/the only thing you ate that your family didn't etc, there's still no way of knowing without lab testing or an extensive epidemiological investigation.
S'truth. Particularly since most people drastically underestimate the length of time it takes for typical foodborne illnesses to strike.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
As far as knowing which food it was, what I've found is that after each bout with food poisoning, there was a certain food that I could not bring myself to eat for a long time afterward. Like I couldn't even look at a hamburger for probably a year after my last bout. So in that case I assumed my body knew (even if I didn't) what it was that caused it. I'm pretty sure it was the hamburger that was red in the middle that I had the night before. I've since been told that it's never safe to eat pink hamburger meat anymore, because of the way that hamburger is made these days. So I'm pretty sure that's it for both those reasons.
However, it's certainly possible for one's body to be mistaken. But I think that it's mostly trustworthy. Whatever mechanism it is that's causing that feeling has been shaped by a lot of evolution and is probably pretty accurate.
Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
It's not generally chemical reactions that are of concern with food poisoning, but biological ones. Pathogenic bacteria (the kinds that make us sick) grow best around body temp. Laboratory incubators are calibrated for about 98-100F. But bacteria will grow just fine (although slower) anywhere from 45-140F. If the food is contaminated with one of the toxin producing bacteria, and stays at the correct (or incorrect, depending on your perspective) for enough time, it'll grow, and produce toxins. It's really very simple and basic microbiology.
Posted by Godric 2.0 (Member # 11443) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: As far as knowing which food it was, what I've found is that after each bout with food poisoning, there was a certain food that I could not bring myself to eat for a long time afterward. Like I couldn't even look at a hamburger for probably a year after my last bout. So in that case I assumed my body knew (even if I didn't) what it was that caused it.
That was my basic reasoning. Although, maybe the poisoning did occur from a previous food intake (neither time had I eaten anything raw or "questionable" in the previous few days) and the reaction just happened at the time I had the fast food so my body remembered vomiting/etc. that food.
To this day, 2+ years after the last incident, I can't stand to look at a McDonald's Snack Wrap. Although I don't particularly blame them... I still enjoy a Quarter Pounder once in awhile.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:I still would not touch many things left in the fridge for 2 days, but other people may have had fewer bad experiences with that than we generally get around here.
Really?? I have a hard time thinking of anything that wouldn't be OK after 2 days in the fridge.
The rule of thumb about chemical reactions going twice as fast for every 10°C increase in temperature is a really crude approximation. And as Maui Babe indicated, we aren't really concerned with common chemical reactions, we are concerned with growth of a few rather specific bacteria and the toxins they produce. For some illnesses (e-coli for example), the bacteria need to be alive which is why cooking thoroughly helps. Other illnesses (like botulism) are caused by a toxin the bacteria produce which will make you sick even if the bacteria themselves are dead.
Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: As far as knowing which food it was, what I've found is that after each bout with food poisoning, there was a certain food that I could not bring myself to eat for a long time afterward. Like I couldn't even look at a hamburger for probably a year after my last bout. So in that case I assumed my body knew (even if I didn't) what it was that caused it. I'm pretty sure it was the hamburger that was red in the middle that I had the night before. I've since been told that it's never safe to eat pink hamburger meat anymore, because of the way that hamburger is made these days. So I'm pretty sure that's it for both those reasons.
However, it's certainly possible for one's body to be mistaken. But I think that it's mostly trustworthy. Whatever mechanism it is that's causing that feeling has been shaped by a lot of evolution and is probably pretty accurate.
In my experience, the last food I've eaten prior to an episode of vomiting is usually off of my list for a while, mainly because I associate the bad experience with the food. But there is seldom any correlation with the actual cause of illness. As for our bodies "knowing" what's wrong, I'm very skeptical.
I have a family member who insists that whenever she has a craving for something, it's because her body is deficient in something that food has. Which may work if you're craving fresh fruit, dairy products or high protein foods. It falls apart a bit if your cravings are for cheetos and twinkies.
I feel the same way about the idea that one's body can know what made it sick. I've investigated far too many food complaints where the ill folks were so far off the mark as to be in the wrong zip code to believe anything like that. It would be nice (and would make my job a lot easier for sure) if it were true. But if that were the case, I suspect we'd all be a whole lot healthier as a rule.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:I have a hard time thinking of anything that wouldn't be OK after 2 days in the fridge.
Such a limited imagination you have! Body-part stew, maggot salad, intestines au naturel... there are any number of things I wouldn't eat after two days in the fridge.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: I wouldn't eat stuff that I was afraid might be spoiled. Why take a risk? Getting food poisoning is no joke, and it's certainly not worth the $20 or whatever it is the food cost you. Throw it away!
I reckon... I do have a lot of stomach troubles, but I ate it yesterday and it wasn't too bad...
Still, I did buy some back-up chicken I can marinate and do interesting things to.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men:
quote:I have a hard time thinking of anything that wouldn't be OK after 2 days in the fridge.
Such a limited imagination you have! Body-part stew, maggot salad, intestines au naturel... there are any number of things I wouldn't eat after two days in the fridge.
Let me amend my original statement,
quote:I have a hard time thinking of anything that would be OK to eat freshly prepared* that wouldn't be OK after 2 days in the fridge.
*Most people would assume this from the context of the discussion but since KoM appears to have weak communication skill the amendment appears necessary.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: ... If you use 21C for your room temperature (which is not conservative here) then things only age 4 times as fast ...
Interesting, I've been eating day-old pizza (after reheating) pretty much weekly for the better part of a year now.
By that formula, it would seem that I've been eating four-day old pizza. (Not a criticism of the formula, just interesting)
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Another question, can I still eat these bagels if I just discovered their sell-by date was on THE 15TH!?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Yes.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Yeah, bread and similar products are far more likely to be stale than spoiled. And spoilage is usually very visible -- mold or mildew.
However, you may want to get in the habit of freezing bagels and bread within a day or two of purchase. Microwaved frozen bagel tastes way better than stale bagel -- microwaved or no.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:Near as I can tell, as long as their shells are unbroken and it's not long after they were brought to market, eggs should be safe.
In Europe, Australia and many other parts of the world, eggs aren't kept refrigerated. I'm not sure why Americans refrigerate eggs, it appears completely unnecessary.
Actually both Romanians and French people keep eggs refrigerated. I'm not sure about other European countries.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
When In Doubt, Throw It Out.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:ctually both Romanians and French people keep eggs refrigerated. I'm not sure about other European countries.
Not in the stores. At least not in the French stores I've shopped at.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
US chickens, particularly those on the East Coast, have a far higher rate of salmonella than most of Europe, IIRC. Which makes refrigerating eggs far more important.
Also, just because it may be rare to see refrigerated eggs in European supermarkets does not in any way imply that it wouldn't be a good idea if they did so.
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: Another question, can I still eat these bagels if I just discovered their sell-by date was on THE 15TH!?
Look for mold. Smell for mold. Seem okay? Probably okay.
If it seems a little stale, brushing the underside with water and microwaving it for twenty to thirty seconds can help to soften it.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
I'd eat old bread if I was hungry. But fresh bread is cheap, and tastes better.
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