quote:

---

This is the sort of thing that makes writers hate Whedon just a little bit.

---

 

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Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
 
I find the show intriguing but my reasons are entirely adolescent. (All the "Actives" are female, and have a certain physical profile, right?) Is there enough else going on that I won't have to be embarrassed to watch this with my wife?
 

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Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
 
You'll like the show, then. Seemingly gratuitous scene in the 1st ep (although there are reasons for it). And the guy actives are in just as good a shape as the girls.
 

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Posted by Tara (Member # 10030) on :
 
I like your newspaper-headline thread titles.
 

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Posted by Achilles (Member # 7741) on :
 
Been waiting for the 13th just for that reason, Chris.

Thanks.
 

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Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
Whoops, I meant to watch this last weekend but forgot.

Edit: Wait, it hasn't aired yet? Sweet, I haven't missed it!
 

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Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
 
NPR's got Joss on sometime in the next half hour (on East Coast anyway, or, well, central VA anyway).
 

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Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
 
On now!
 

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Posted by Achilles (Member # 7741) on :
 
*stocks up on popcorn*
 

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Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
 
Huh.

BSG, Dollhouse, and Terminator on Fridays
House, Heroes, and Big Bang Theory on Mondays

They gotta start spreading this stuff out.
 

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Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
 
That's what Hulu is for.
 

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Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
 
FOX had a music video of the theme song (or a version of the theme song) up briefly, then took it down. Here it is (for now).
 

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Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
 
Unfortunately, Hulu doesn't seem to serve internationally. Luckily, there is yet another form of streamed content, one which may be compared to flowing water.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mucus:
Luckily, there is yet another form of streamed content, one which may be compared to flowing water.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by scifibum:
It seems dumb...But I haven't watched it yet.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The White Whale:
It's almost the geekiest thing I own, but then my younger brother had to go and get this "Jayne Hoodie" for me for Christmas.

Which, now that I think about it, is awesome. I could never buy it for myself. It's pretty pricey, and unbelievably geeky. But since it was a gift, I can wear it with pride and can put the ultimate blame on my brother.

---

I own a Jayne hoodie knitted for me by a Hatracker for the party we had at Serenity opening night.
 

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Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
 
The only hope I had for the show was to see Tahmoh Penikett shirtless.

Imagine my glee when the first shot of him is both shirtless and sweaty - and he looks fantastic.

*fans self*

Oh, was there a show around that? Beats me.
 

---

Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fyfe:
How come nobody ever uses an inhaler correctly on TV?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmer's Glue:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fyfe:
How come nobody ever uses an inhaler correctly on TV?

---

That's what I thought. I mean come on, it's not breath spray!

I liked the show alright. Not loving it yet, but I'll keep watching.

---

This is true... I use one sometimes and you have to shake it and take two puffs after holding your breath between them.
I think that would take too long to show on television or in the movies so they just go puff and leave it at that.

The show was not so bad. It was interesting.
 

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Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
 
I don't get what the advantage is of giving people personality implants (aside from those who really need it). What makes it worth the trouble? You need a hostage negotiator? They are already available. Why create one artificially?

You know, this matter of personality implants is not that far removed from the way the Jason Bourne identity was supposedly created, in a CIA (or equivalent) brainwashing lab. It is supposed to have long been possible to create artificially new personalities, which then functionally produce multiple personality disorders.
 

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Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 
A normal hostage negotiator would have to be contacted through law enforcement channels, while this one was for hire through a clandestine organization.

I guess the point is that rich people can get the kind of people they require (a girlfriend-for-hire, a hostage negotiator, a swat-ish assassin type) without having to worry about legality. This is also presumably why that Boxing Guy is after them.
 

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Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
 
Instead of "Dollhouse," they should call it "Treadstone."
 

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Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
 
It wasn't bad.

But, then again, as far as I'm concerned they could film Eliza Dushku staring blankly in to space for an hour and I'd still watch it.
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
I actually don't really like the actress. I didn't see Buffy so I don't know what she was like there, but here she A) didn't quite pull of the "suddenly a completely different person" thing, B) don't know exactly why but she just doesn't strike me as that attractive, so the whole "ga ga eye candy" angle isn't working for me.
 

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Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
 
The music was totally insufferable. The show was disappointing.

Oh, oh, how I hated the music. It was bothersome and constant and unmelodic and it never seemed to match what was happening. Just a series of slow atmospheric tones.

Despicable!

It was exactly the worst kind of television music. My idea of good television music can be found in shows like Twin Peaks, Battlestar Galactica, The X-Files, Firefly, Batman: The Animated Series -- and on and on. There are melodies, there are themes, there are repeating motifs. The music is appropriate to the scene. Often, no music is present. For the love of God, we don't need some dude in a studio with a synthesizer playing an F-sharp over every. freaking. conversation.
 

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Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
 
I guess I'm in the minority, but I'm going to come down in favor of the show. As far as pilots go, I didn't like it quite as much as Firefly, but quite a bit more than Buffy or Angel. It was well paced and imaginative. The plot was typical Whedon--unconventional yet satisfying, with a fully contained story and just enough mysterious loose ends to suck me into the series arc.

I'm not a big fan of Dushku, here or in Buffy. I was never fully behind Sarah Michelle Gellar or David Boreanaz as series leads either. But whatever Whedon lacks in casting skills (or, more fairly, where his tastes in actors differ from mine), he's always been able to more than compensate for in every other aspect of his productions.

I'm excited to see the series continue. On one hand, his series always gain steam as they progress. On the other hand, my favorite episodes are always the ones that he writes and directs himself. The pilot was full of cracking Whedon dialogue, and I'm sure I'll miss that next week when the staff writers take over. But I still can't wait to see where he's taking us.
 

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Posted by TheGrimace (Member # 9178) on :
 
I'm with Speed on this one, I was enthralled by the episode and Joss's ability to cram so much into an episode and not feel rushed. I'll admit that I was super psyched to see this, but the only thing I wasn't particularly a fan of (though it didn't detract for me) was the bike scene at the beginning...

Come on, lots of characters all with obviously different motivations and thoughts on being involved in this all, interesting moral quandries involved, questions on where the technology will lead, etc etc etc...

I also think that the pacing and acting and music play a great role in setting the mood. It can be somewhat frantic out in the real world, but when you're in the dollhouse everything is muted and plodding and hushed, as in a dream world.

The hot girl factor definitely helps as well, but I don't think it was critical per-se.
 

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Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
 
So I totally missed the premiere because I got a chance to see REPO again and hang out until 5am in the French Quarter with Terrance Zdunich. Sorry Joss!

Anyway, so I just watched it and I'm...meh. I wasn't really excited about the premise. A high school girl who kills vampires, that's new. A western space opera, that's different. But between Jason Bourne and Alias, it feels like I've seen this before.

I like Eliza but its okay that I don't love her. I rarely love Joss' leads. I think his strength is his ability to put together an ensemble and to present secondary characters that are just as intriguing and well-developed. And that's where I worry. If you had told me this was written by his staff, I would have believed it. It lacked his humor and I didn't fall in love with any of the cast.

There's potential but it just didn't feel like a Joss show to me. Usually his dialogue and ideas make his material very recognizable but I totally would have passed on this show if someone had shown me the pilot without his name attached. The concept seems gimmicky and very close to the typical eye candy, action genre of television.

Maybe it'll be interesting to see him and his staff take something boring and give it a new spin. But I'm nervous.
 

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Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
I'm giving it time. Everything I read said it starts slow.

I didn't like the idea behind firefly either and that's one of my favorite shows ever. Maybe Dollhouse won't be a procedural forever...
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
Hm...not only did it start slow, but none of the dialog had Whedon's...sparkliness. It was standard, TV-action-genre blab.

The show lacks quirkiness.

I'd be curious to see how much editing the network did.

I'll stick with it, only because Joss' name is stuck on it. I'm giving it three episodes.
 

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Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
 
I'm with Scott on this one. It did start a bit slow, with rather too many backstory scenes. I felt it could have been streamlined a little more, although whoever said a lot occurred was right.

I think that this show would have been better in the hands of a newcomer rather than Dushku. I feel like even though Whedon practically wrote the role for Dushku, somewhere along the line it slipped from her into someone else, and it would have been a better choice to get someone bringing something entirely new to the role.

For example, the line "Who looks after you?" was quintessentially Whedon but it didn't quite ring true coming out of Dushku. She doesn't quite convey the right kind of empty dreaminess.

Whedon has never truly pulled off a perfect pilot along the lines of Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip. His strength is that he can weave good stories and good characters. And I did like the characters, although I felt that all of them seemed not quite themselves. Perhaps that is due to it being early in the show-- many shows lack centered characters at the beginning. But Whedon has generally been pretty good at getting characters right first time, and I didn't get that from this episode. Echo's disjointed life makes it difficult to pull her together, perhaps, but the other major characters, her handler (the one with the ex-cop heroics) and the scientist, seemed to lack a sense of who they were and this made the whole thing seem a little blah. They seemed to lack the personal details that make characters really work.

This episode lacked humour. I did not notice the lack, but I think that a lot of the character details in Whedon scripts emerge out of the humour that he writes for them. Because these characters were never funny, they lacked character.

This is think was especially problematic given the personality-lessness of the main character. I think that Echo needed an anchor-- and object, a manner of being, that visibly couldn't be 'edited' out of her. Alternatively, she could have had some anchor in the way her handler, for example, treats her: some exchange of dialogue that he is setting up for her in this first episode that will give him something to bounce off.

From a non-writing POV: I found the set of the actual Dollhouse bothersome. Why do they sleep in little boxes arranged in such an inefficient way? Why not have standard bunks?

I think overall I wanted more reality. By that I don't mean gritty darkness, I mean little things that make the world and the characters real. These can be character details, detailed dialogue or practical thought behind each set instead 'bedroom', 'broken down cabin', 'futuristic living space'.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Teshi:
I think that this show would have been better in the hands of a newcomer rather than Dushku.

---

quote:

---

the other major characters, her handler (the one with the ex-cop heroics) and the scientist, seemed to lack a sense of who they were and this made the whole thing seem a little blah. They seemed to lack the personal details that make characters really work.

---

quote:

---

From a non-writing POV: I found the set of the actual Dollhouse bothersome. Why do they sleep in little boxes arranged in such an inefficient way? Why not have standard bunks?

---

quote:

---

I think overall I wanted more reality. By that I don't mean gritty darkness, I mean little things that make the world and the characters real. These can be character details, detailed dialogue or practical thought behind each set instead 'bedroom', 'broken down cabin', 'futuristic living space'.

---

quote:

---

I think that Echo needed an anchor--

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by El JT de Spang:
Same here.

I sat through season 1 of Buffy (all on hulu), and really didn't enjoy most of it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Pixiest:
Did anyone else think the Dollhouse was just the offices of Wolfram and Hart with a different paint job?

---

No, not really.

What parts? The inside? No. The outside? I don't think so.
 

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Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
 
I know what you mean though! Has to be the same designer.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
I read something about that, and it was the same designer.
 

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Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
 
Hmmm...I'll have to watch it again.
 

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Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
 
I think what Eliza Dushku particularly needs is voice coaching. Her voice itself is a little bit harsh and the only way she seems to act with it is to change the volume.

I like those bed things. Maybe it's a new mom of twins thing, but they looked so comfortable and peaceful.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Actually, I didn't read it, Joss said it during one of the joint interviews they had with him and Eliza Dushku.

I like her husky, bedroom voice.
 

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Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
 
I figured out a possible reason for the odd bedroom system. They could be overlooked if the dollhouse were raided at night, thus protecting the actives from capture.
 

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Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
 
It's still an inefficient way of storing them.
 

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Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
 
I liked it. It fell a little flat, but Whedon's pilots always do. I think Dushku can grow into the role. I liked her handler, I liked seeing Helo return in a new character, I liked the owners of the Dollhouse. I liked how they were convinced and how they could easily go either way -- good guy or bad guy. I liked the tech, though he reminded me disturbingly of Warren from Buffy (I don't think it was the same actor). I'll give it a season, doesn't hurt and it might be good.

The people saying Whedon's traditional ironic human is missing are right though. It was almost completely lacking. Again, it often is lacking from his pilots though.
 

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Posted by Vadon (Member # 4561) on :
 
Very Condensed Opinion:

I think that episode went better than the pilot. It's still not great, but I'm starting to feel intrigued. (Something I wasn't feeling from the pilot)

I'll keep watching.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
How soon after shows air do they go up on Hulu, typically?
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
I think it varies from show to show. For BSG, I know they've been putting them up pretty close to midnight after they aired, but that was only for the first five episodes of the last half of this season. The last five won't appear on there until after 8 days have gone by.
 

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Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 
I think this episode was marginally more intriguing, but i'm still annoyed with the narrative tactics, the process of revealing the story, and the character development. and the dialogue is still CLUNKY!
 

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Posted by Sala (Member # 8980) on :
 
Did anyone else have their signal disappear toward the end of the episode? I don't know what happened from the point Echo's handler got shot. Can someone tell me what happened? (Put up a spoiler warning for those who didn't see.)
~Sala
 

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Posted by ladyday (Member # 1069) on :
 
SPOILERS
TwP recaplet

Boyd is shot in the side and losing large amounts of blood. They stand out in the open for some time, having a drawn out conversation, instead of hiding (???) but what's important here is that Boyd told Echo the trigger words (everything is going to be alright) and she doesn't respond the way she's supposed to (now that you're here). Instead, she points out the obvious, then goes to kill the bad guy, despite Boyd's protests that she doesn't have the right imprint, oops I mean training. She looks confused for a second (more confused than usual) but shoots back by asking Boyd if he trusts her. He says 'with my life'. Echo finds the bad guy and eventually stabs him to death with his own arrow, after some trash talk and a fight.

Back at the dollhouse, Echo's imprint and memories are wiped. She encounters Laurence on her way out, and he says some kind of mean/stupid things to her, about putting her in the attic and such, which she responds to with a blank stare and an announcement that she is going to go swimming in the pool now. Then, when his back is turned, she makes the grabbing shoulder gesture that she learned on her mission. Dun dun dun...

In the Dr's office, Doc and Boyd chat over the dead body of the fake ranger. Boyd explains that he didn't intend for the ranger to die, and Doc points out that he missed the major arteries when he shot the ranger in the leg. They both observe how the ranger really died - knife wounds, exactly like Alpha's other victims. Doc states that this is impossible because Alpha was hunted down and killed, but Boyd argues that the people in charge probably lied about that.

Speaking of people in charge, Adelle rants to Lawrence about the fact that their background checks are worthless if they don't catch things like 'raging psychopath'. Lawrence explains that the bad guy's entire background, from birth on up, was completely fabricated, and they've never seen something this involved.

I didn't get the order of events right, but that's basically what happened.
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
This episode started to remind me of Red vs Blue, Reconstruction. Partly just because they use the word "Alpha" but the context seemed fairly similar as well, with all these fragments of artificial personalities getting chucked around. I assume Alpha is a composite of several personalities that went haywire.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sala:
Did anyone else have their signal disappear toward the end of the episode? I don't know what happened from the point Echo's handler got shot. Can someone tell me what happened? (Put up a spoiler warning for those who didn't see.)
~Sala

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alcon:
... I liked seeing Helo return in a new character...

---

Really? Because we were pretty sure it was still Helo, just in a suit. No new character there.

I think we're just going to keep watching it for now - but when it goes up against the BSG finale, well, priorities will rule.
 

---

Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 
Alpha, Echo? Where are Bravo, Charlie, and Delta?

edit: ooh, and I forgot about Sierra! My theory is confirmed!
 

---

Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
 
Lasagna Girl is an Active.
 

---

Posted by Sala (Member # 8980) on :
 
Ladyday and Raymond, Thanks!!!!!
 

---

Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leonide:
Alpha, Echo? Where are Bravo, Charlie, and Delta?

edit: ooh, and I forgot about Sierra! My theory is confirmed!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by El JT de Spang:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leonide:
Alpha, Echo? Where are Bravo, Charlie, and Delta?

edit: ooh, and I forgot about Sierra! My theory is confirmed!

---

I thought from the first time they called her 'Echo' it was supposed to be obvious the Actives had military codenames.

---

quote:

---

All of the names of the girls used in the Dollhouse are named after the NATO phonetic alphabet (Echo, Sierra).

---

 

---

Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
"Exuberant price"? I think she meant "exorbinant".

And Nighthawk, those comments on IMdb are hardly a reliable source. They're about the same as someone here saying so. But it's clearly true. And I think we'll find that except for Echo and Alpha, most of the Actives are near the end of the alphabet, because Alpha killed the early ones.
 

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Posted by TheGrimace (Member # 9178) on :
 
I thought it was an ok episode, and I appreciated the background info that I'm sure will lead somewhere fascinating. I will say that this episode struck me more than the first as lacking the magic that I expect from Joss. It wasn't bad, it just didn't seem fantastic Also, I just kept having flashbacks to the old Fantasy Island episode with the hunting of humans... I guess it's hard to do much terribly different with such an iconic topic.

As for Exuberant, exorbitant would have made more sense, but exuberant could work in this context, just with a somewhat odd feel to it.
 

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Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
 
Jason Bourne... thank you to whoever mentioned him first. I was trying to recall what movie had the same general premise. I remembered The Pretender, I'd never seen Alias, but I knew there was something else out there that felt very similar with the whole imprinting thing.

I'm still reserving judgment. I watched the first two episodes back to back on Hulu and I'm not quite sure what's going on yet.
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
The second episode was worlds better than the pilot.

Whedon's series have always been ensemble affairs with quirky characters doing and saying quirky things in quirky settings. There's really none of that in Dollhouse; the only quirky person is the neuro-technician or whatever; and Echo cannot be said to even have a personality of her own.
 

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Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott R:
The second episode was worlds better than the pilot.

---

quote:

---

and Echo cannot be said to even have a personality of her own.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Pixiest:

quote:

---

and Echo cannot be said to even have a personality of her own.

---

Yet.

---

quote:

---

Is it just me or in one of the scenes where she gets wiped, there's a brief shot, if I remember, from the POV of a baby being lifted out of a crib by (I assume) a mother. I think that was in the second episode.

That seems to me like a nice little, brief, hint to some of the problems (and plot developments) that might develop later in the series.

Can any one second my memory?

---

quote:

---

Even when Alpha went on a slice and dice spree--he couldn't touch Neuro-Tech guy.

---

quote:

---

Neuro-Tech Guy didn't seem too confident, and kept asking for a gun of his own.

---

If everyone else is storming through with weapons, and making no apparent effort to protect me or get me to safety, damn straight I'd want a weapon too.
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Not if you don't feel that you're in any danger from the threat.
 

---

Posted by Vadon (Member # 4561) on :
 
Could be that Alpha went hay-wire to the point that even tech-guy was afraid. Ultimately the conditioning worked, but you could understand him thinking it might not work so well for him.
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Yeah. When the robot is blatantly disregarding laws 2 and 3, law #1 doesn't seem so secure anymore.
 

---

Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
As an aside... Amy Acker is still beautiful even with scars.
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
*nod*

And water is still wet.
 

---

Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nighthawk:

quote:

---

Neuro-Tech Guy didn't seem too confident, and kept asking for a gun of his own.

---

If everyone else is storming through with weapons, and making no apparent effort to protect me or get me to safety, damn straight I'd want a weapon too.

---

quote:

---

My only proof--Two most important people in the place are having a high level discussion in expensive suits, and Neuro-Tech guy interrupts them, and they don't question him. He gets to dress casual, and seems to be the only one who touches the equipment. Even when Alpha went on a slice and dice spree--he couldn't touch Neuro-Tech guy. That's because of conditioning #1 commandment--thou shall not hurt Neuro-Tech guy.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Darth_Mauve:
Plot Conspiracy Theory #Q.

Everyone except Neuro-Tech is an active.

Boss Lady--Active who is created to be the best Boss Lady.

Lead Security--Active who is created to be the best in security.

FBI Agent mindlessly chasing them--is an Active.

Echo's Handler--is an active.

etc. etc.

My only proof--Two most important people in the place are having a high level discussion in expensive suits, and Neuro-Tech guy interrupts them, and they don't question him. He gets to dress casual, and seems to be the only one who touches the equipment. Even when Alpha went on a slice and dice spree--he couldn't touch Neuro-Tech guy. That's because of conditioning #1 commandment--thou shall not hurt Neuro-Tech guy.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The White Whale:
I get the feeling Topher is the Wash of Dollhouse.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The White Whale:
I get the feeling Topher is the Wash of Dollhouse.

---

Now, see, a week ago that comment would have made no sense to me.
 

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Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
A week ago I made that comment elsewhere.
 

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Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
 
For damn sure Wash is not going to be the Wash of this series.
 

---

Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
 
Wow! That is an interesting casting choice. Very unexpected but I can totally see him pulling it off.
 

---

Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
 
Speaking of Firefly actors, it was good to see Badger again.
 

---

Posted by Clive Candy (Member # 11977) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Shigosei:
Speaking of Firefly actors, it was good to see Badger again.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by El JT de Spang:
A week ago I made that comment elsewhere.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Shigosei:
Speaking of Firefly actors, it was good to see Badger again.

---

Have you been watching BSG? He was in an episode just a few weeks ago.
 

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Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
 
Am I bad that I think episode 2 is awfully early to be recycling "The Most Dangerous Game"?...
 

---

Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
Yes.

How you're able to look yourself in the mirror after thinking that, I'll never understand.
 

---

Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
 
Well, he can't, clearly because he's a vampire. Don't rub salt in the wound.


 

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Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
Or garlic.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
Holy...water we going to do if somebody does go at him with garlic?
 

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Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
I have no stake in this pun fight.
 

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Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
 
Here comes the sun, and I say... AIIIGHHHH! *FWOOSH*
 

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Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
Y'all slay me.
 

---

Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
I'm relieved that you think it's funny, Lisa--I was worried you'd be cross.
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
Puns suck.
 

---

Posted by Achilles (Member # 7741) on :
 
*runs away smoking*
 

---

Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
 
Yeah, I guess he was just in BSG again. Which is also amusing, given that it's Helo he's talking to.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Scott: bite me.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
Porter, I just want to say that I really appreciate your being so vocal about the fact that you're not happy about Scott's attitude in this thread. With regard to policing his actions, you're really in the van. Hell, sing your protests and they wouldn't be any clearer or more ringing than they are now.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
(That one took me a while.)
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
It was pretty tortured, I admit. I'm glad that I could count on you to take the time to parse it.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Sterling:
Here comes the sun, and I say... AIIIGHHHH! *FWOOSH*

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quote:

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I get the feeling Topher is the Wash of Dollhouse.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Noemon:
It was pretty tortured, I admit. I'm glad that I could count on you to take the time to parse it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Noemon:
It was pretty tortured, I admit. I'm glad that I could count on you to take the time to parse it.

---

It reminded me of a previous construction of yours where we learned that the Thick Cheesy always discharges its debts.

---

quote:

---

Now, with “Dollhouse,” Whedon is back on Fox, and the second time is probably not the charm. Only people who are willing to cut Whedon endless slack could find anything much to draw them in to this show, at least in the three episodes I’ve seen. So far, the vision, humor, and storytelling skill you’d expect to find are absent, and at the core of the series is an unpromising performance by Eliza Dushku (from “Buffy” and “Angel”).

---

quote:

---

the primary qualification that Dushku brings to the part is that she graduated with honors from the Royal Academy of Cleavage. In terms of gender studies, it is notable that Dushku’s demeanor as a zombie is much the same as the demeanor many actresses her age resort to when trying to project an image of themselves as unthreatening and “feminine”: a slouchy walk, a bobbly head, and ever-parted lips. Would someone please show these actresses a movie starring Katharine Hepburn, Barbara Stanwyck, Irene Dunne, Bette Davis, Cate Blanchett, Meryl Streep, or Judy Davis? Whedon wants to explore the farthest corners of our natures to discover what it means to be human. But this vehicle, which he created specifically for Dushku, doesn’t seem fit for the journey.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
Scott: bite me.

---

quote:

---

...the vision, humor, and storytelling skill you’d expect to find are absent....

---

Much as I find in the New Yorker.
 

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Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
 
Hooray, more Amy Acker tonight! I liked it when Topher said she and Boyd could get married and have scowly babies.
 

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Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fyfe:
For damn sure Wash is not going to be the Wash of this series.

---

So he turned in to a Reaver.

"I am like a leaf in the..." *** STAB! SLICE! EVISCERATE! STAB! ***

[ February 28, 2009, 12:53 AM: Message edited by: Nighthawk ]
 

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Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
 
Well, I still like it, despite the fact that the music of the last episode is not really my type.

So, in the end, Echo and Sierra were still remembering something, weren't they? I guess the genius isn't that much of a genius...
 

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Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
 
Yeah, I think Topher is still a genius, but even he's in over his head.

I didn't really like the plot, with divas and arrogant singers and obsessive fans, but I'm happy that the show shifts from theme to theme. I hope never to see those singers / dancers again.
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
I liked this episode quite a bit. It's not what I expected from a Joss show but it's good for its own reasons.
 

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Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
 
After having seen, presumably, the same three episodes that The New Yorker saw, I'm having a hard time imagining why anyone would take issue with that review. I'm as big a Whedon fan as anyone. The show so far is not a good show. I think we all expect it to get better, but if it wasn't Joss, I would not be watching.
 

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Posted by Clive Candy (Member # 11977) on :
 
Yesterday's episode was a train wreck.

Who was that actress playing the singer? Was she some American Idol winner they felt they had to give a role to or something? In any case, she was dreadful--as was the story, which made no sense. How could her stalker freely operate backstage like that? Didn't the writers realize that sending in TWO actives--and it turning out that one of them was so useless that she let's herself get kidnapped and be absolutely cowed by her captor--would be clunky storytelling? The pitch we keep hearing from Whedon is that the first episodes are just an introduction. But why was "Firefly" a masterpiece and this clearly isn't?

So far, Dollhouse has been remarkably lame, and this could be because Whedon is afraid of pouring his heart into another show that may very well get cancelled before its time.

[ February 28, 2009, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: Clive Candy ]
 

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Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
 
Yeah, why was the second active completely useless? She should have taken the guy out as soon as he attacked her.
 

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Posted by Clive Candy (Member # 11977) on :
 
The problem with this show is that the "engagements" get in the way of what everyone wants: suspense and intrigue within the Dollhouse itself. There was almost a good moment involving Amy Acker's character and Echo's handler (the most believable actor in the series, IMHO.)
 

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Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
 
On the other hand, Sierra as Audra was mighty cute.

I thought the singer was an absolutely dreadful actress - they should have given her fewer lines, and left most of her serious psychological issues implied, rather than hammered to death. As with previous episodes, I thought the main plotline was less interesting than everything happening on the periphery. "What happened to the previous Sierra?"; Victor turning out to be an Active; that excellent moment at the end where Echo shakes her head at Sierra.

It's getting better, and I'm still giving it time. Buffy didn't hit its stride for a while either.

(How good was the FBI agent, though? He wins MVP for this week: gotta love a man who can count bullets effectively.)
 

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Posted by Jeorge (Member # 11524) on :
 
It seems to me (from what I've seen of Whedon so far) that what he excels at is building interesting relationships between characters over time. But this show seems to be designed to keep him from doing that. Every week there will be a new set of characters that we probably won't see again. And the character relationships which will develop over time are only getting a few minutes every episode.
 

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Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
 
Eliza talks about Dollhouse at A.V. Club: link

quote:

---

we’ve now done 13 episodes, and people have said that the show took off once they finally realized that Joss is best off left alone to do his thing. That happens around episode six — six through 13 are just extraordinary. I love one, two, three, four, and five, but Joss’ first script that he did after the pilot is number six, which is called “Man On The Street,” and it is just unbelievable. From that point on, the world unfolds in Joss’ way, with Joss’ speed, and it’s really remarkable.

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quote:

---

I thought the singer was an absolutely dreadful actress

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmer's Glue:
Yeah, why was the second active completely useless? She should have taken the guy out as soon as he attacked her.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmer's Glue:
Yeah, why was the second active completely useless? She should have taken the guy out as soon as he attacked her.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:

quote:

---

I thought the singer was an absolutely dreadful actress

---

Really? I thought she did a fine job of portraying a whiny, self possessed teen idol. Which doesn't make the portrayal any less annoying, and probably didn't stretch the actresses' skills that much, but I didn't think there was anything objectively wrong with it.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Leonide:
All that Echo remembered from being hunted was the shoulder punch thing, so it makes a kind of sense for her to only remember one thing from this imprint.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leonide:
I really don't think Sierra remembers anything.

---

Why would she listen to Echo then? Just because she told her "no"? They all seemed pretty blank slates when they were inactive, understanding a head-shake to mean "no, don't come near me, there's danger" or something like that should be beyond Sierra's inactive state. At least that's what I think.
 

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Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 
They are blank slates personality-wise, not in understanding. Sierra looked confused when Echo shook her head, but she understands what a head shake means, and since Echo didn't slow down, she kept walking as well.
 

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Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
 
I'm wondering if Sierra's "emergency" job was to do exactly what she did, which was get taken hostage by the stalker.

When asked about the "last Sierra", who we must assume is dead, her handler said "she did her job". Maybe she was just there as a decoy to flush the stalker into the open.

They set her up pretty well as a target. "#1 Fan", putting her up on stage for everyone to see, having her be an easy mark, etc. If the stalker grabbed her, that would be protecting the client. Plus, as mentioned in Ep 2, if an active is damanged/dies, it's only a matter of extra fees for the client.
 

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Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
 
PA

quote:

---

Dollhouse is not an enjoyable television program.

It's true that I've used a hypertext reference to link the word "Dollhouse" directly to a place where you can watch the show, but you should not interpret this as a recommendation. Being truly granular about what makes the show an affront would require the use of holographic data storage, but in general terms the show (as delivered) doesn't work. There's plenty of people to hate, and very few people to like. It's a science fiction retelling of MTV's The Real World, and it works about as well as you would expect.

What we are told by people (almost without exception) is that

1. I don't like the show, but
2. I will keep watching it as an expression of gratitude for a better, more engaging program he made back when he was making better, more engaging programs

which as a system of thought doesn't work for me. His acolytes are breathless for the show to reach apotheosis, like some scheming cult awaiting a fortuitous celestial arrangement. It's core to their belief: it's even woven into the press tour, the idea that the show isn't bad because it's bad.

---

quote:

---

I've been thinking a lot about feminism lately. Must be all the estrogen in the drinking water.

Whenever I start thinking like that my mind naturally ends up thinking about Joss Whedon. He's the self-described feminist behind shows like Buffy: The Vampire Slayer and Firefly.

His most recent effort, Dollhouse (Fox, Fridays at 9/8c), is about a very unusual escort service. Wealthy clients customize their dream dates to order. The Dollhouse programs personalities and skills into one of their "Actives" and sends them off on a fantasy date that never goes according to plan.

Eliza Dushku stars at the high-tech hooker Echo, mind-wiped for the pleasure of dudes around the globe. There are some other people on the show, like that black guy who looks sort of familiar and that guy from Battlestar Galactica who had a baby with a Cylon. No, the other guy.

Sexually menacing men punching, stabbing, shooting, or attempting rape on a hooker are a common theme of Dollhouse.

This is very empowering for women, because nothing says feminism quite like a brainwashed fantasy prostitute being punched and kicked in the face by a john.

---

 

---

Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
 
Heh, I don't get the second one... The point is exactly that the actives are very much "used" and it's not comfortable for everyone. I'd like to see someone hiring an active who has some issues with the whole process too, but I don't want everything to happen within the first three episodes.

As for the "anti-feminism", Alpha was a male, right?!

And remember how one of Echo's assignments was to be a negotiator, while Sierra was a soldier? Yes, they were still being used; no, those were not "dates". Sheesh, if they're gonna critique a show the least they could do would be to remember what they watched...
 

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Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
Well, they've only really shown us one male active, and he wasn't programmed to be all sexy.
 

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Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
 

quote:

---

I'm hoping that her "remembering" is going to spiral out of control fairly quickly - otherwise I think the REAL plot of this series is going to move along far too slowly.

---

quote:

---

His most recent effort, Dollhouse (Fox, Fridays at 9/8c), is about a very unusual escort service. Wealthy clients customize their dream dates to order. The Dollhouse programs personalities and skills into one of their "Actives" and sends them off on a fantasy date that never goes according to plan.

---

quote:

---

1. I don't like the show, but
2. I will keep watching it as an expression of gratitude for a better, more engaging program he made back when he was making better, more engaging programs

---

quote:

---

If it's not showing in this show we're willing to append "yet" and wait.

---

quote:

---

we’ve now done 13 episodes, and people have said that the show took off once they finally realized that Joss is best off left alone to do his thing. That happens around episode six — six through 13 are just extraordinary. I love one, two, three, four, and five, but Joss’ first script that he did after the pilot is number six, which is called “Man On The Street,” and it is just unbelievable. From that point on, the world unfolds in Joss’ way, with Joss’ speed, and it’s really remarkable.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lisa:
Well, they've only really shown us one male active, and he wasn't programmed to be all sexy.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Corwin:
Heh, I don't get the second one...

---

quote:

---

...released on region 1 DVD on December 9, 2003...by September 2005, its DVD release had sold approximately 500,000 copies

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quote:

---

At Amazon.com the DVDs had average daily rankings of between 1st and 75th in 2003, 22nd and 397th in 2004, 2nd and 232nd in 2005, and 2nd and 31st in 2006 as of June 27, 2006.

---

quote:

---

Posts: 1

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Not sure about the 'almost never' Maratanos, but welcome!

Yeah, the reception for Firefly was pretty dire, as were the reviews of it I read at the time.
But I saw about three episodes of its run on first airing and thought it had potential, so I was quite sad to see it go. (I was much more sad when I'd seen the whole series, though).

The other show I liked that year (2002) was 'Haunted' which was also cancelled after about four weeks. Then it was basically remade in France (different enough for there to be no plagiarism issue but obviously inspired by the same material) and cancelled after six episodes there too.

Now I just have to wait and see whether Dollhouse gets cancelled before I’ve even had a chance to watch it.

The moral? Clearly I have unusual taste in TV, and most people have none.
 

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Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
 
An article in today's Washington Post talks about how networks next season are going back to closed ended dramas and laugh track sitcoms. Critics don't like them, they don't develop cult followings, but they get higher ratings.
 

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Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
 
Is 500,000 copies a good number for a DVD? I'm not actually sure. I know a AAA-budgeted game is considered a failure if it hits under a million — but the costs, etc, involved are very different.
 

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Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
 
For a DVD boxed set of a television show, I'd imagine that's quite high... especially for a cancelled show that was aired out of order.

Once the movie was announced, I'm sure sales improved as well.

Don't forget that Firefly was also juggled in timeslot multiple times, adding to the difficulty.

I never saw it when it was aired... though I remembered seeing a commercial for it once, and looking for it one night I thought it was going to be on and not finding it. It wasn't until Chris Bridges started talking it up leading into the movie that I got hooked.

I'm willing to give Dollhouse a few more episodes, and I'm hoping Fox is too.

I was also hoping they'd give Drive more episodes, which they didn't... and I enjoyed the first few episodes of that more than I've enjoyed the first few of Dollhouse.
 

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Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stephan:
closed ended dramas

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What are those? Some examples wouldn't hurt too.
 

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Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Corwin:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stephan:
closed ended dramas

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What are those? Some examples wouldn't hurt too.

---

Law and Order is one example.

Basically where you can pretty much watch a single episode at any point in the series, with little to no back ground knowledge. If I started with the third episode of Dollhouse I would be lost. They want to move away from serial dramas like Lost and 24.

They are also finding old fashioned laugh track sitcoms are fairing better right now. Many were shocked to find Two and a Half Men doing better in the ratings than The Office.
 

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Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
 
Oh, gotcha. Thanks.
 

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Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
 
Possible spoilers in this post...


I actually kinda liked this past episode. I thought Echo's remote wipe made for an interesting twist, and it focused a little more on the Dollhouse itself rather than the engagements, which I find a lot more interesting, mostly because it's so mysterious right now. The politics are becoming a little clearer, and Adelle was finally seen in a position of some vulnerability. It's still kinda weak, but it's much improved from the first three episodes.
 

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Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
 

quote:

---

Many were shocked to find Two and a Half Men doing better in the ratings than The Office.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nighthawk:
Because the television audience is stupid. I mean, after all, they didn't like Firefly, right?

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quote:

---

It wasn't until Chris Bridges started talking it up leading into the movie that I got hooked.

---

quote:

---

Again, I feel the need to reiterate that fact that a television audience didn't really get a chance to like Firefly.

---

quote:

---

It seemed like it would be a lot cheaper to just hire an expert thief.

---

quote:

---

It seemed like it would be a lot cheaper to just hire an expert thief. Of course, I suppose it is possible that the client some how had the dollhouse connection but not the thief connection (though that seems a bit weird too).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amilia:

quote:

---

It seemed like it would be a lot cheaper to just hire an expert thief. Of course, I suppose it is possible that the client some how had the dollhouse connection but not the thief connection (though that seems a bit weird too).

---

Weirder still . . . it seemed like it would be a lot cheaper to just hire an expert midwife.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
Weren't they up on the top of a mountain or something like that? If you know you're going to be far away from modern medical care, having the best would be even more important.

---

Transportation also probably plays a factor. I mean, the Dollhouse owns military-grade helicopters! They could program the best midwife there is and drop her anywhere in the world almost instantly. That's got to be worth something!
 

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Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
 
I sort of thought the midwife thing might play into something later. You know, it's put at the beginning to make it look like she has all kinds of engagements, but actually there's a broader point to it that we will find out later.

Maybe just wishful thinking...
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
Well, there is a parallel between the conventional midwifery that Echo is engaging in at the beginning of the show and the metaphorical midwifery being performed by the explosives expert helping Echo into reality by looking at and talking about art.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
Personally, I like the idea of someone whose all right with reprogramming people for anything at all, but doesn't want to use a hospital to deliver a child.

Hobbes
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Maybe it was his wife who didn't want to deliver in a hospital, and it made him nervous enough to hire a midwife that was better than the best in the world.
 

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Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Abyss:
The whole point of the dollhouse, I think, is that their "personality composites" are better than any living human being at their specific task/tasks.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by El JT de Spang:
How would you state something implicitly?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The White Whale:
I think a large part of why Dollhouse has clientele is the secrecy that could be obtained. The last episode, for instance, had a heavy focus on the client making sure that no one knew of what the job was. No one in the Dollhouse administration, and after the job, not even the active.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sterling:

quote:

---

Originally posted by El JT de Spang:
How would you state something implicitly?

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I don't know... If someone were to say something like, "In 98% of violent altercations involving clients, Dollhouse actives were able to contain the situation without injury to clients, versus a rate of 56% with ordinary security companies," that would be something.

---

That would be stating it explicitly. Which was my (nit-picky) point.
 

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Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by El JT de Spang:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sterling:

quote:

---

Originally posted by El JT de Spang:
How would you state something implicitly?

---

I don't know... If someone were to say something like, "In 98% of violent altercations involving clients, Dollhouse actives were able to contain the situation without injury to clients, versus a rate of 56% with ordinary security companies," that would be something.

---

That would be stating it explicitly. Which was my (nit-picky) point.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brinestone:
Funny, Clive, I was thinking tonight's episode was my least favorite so far.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by El JT de Spang:
It seems like the whole idea of the show was to develop a platform to show Dushku's range.

Only no one to into account that she has none.

---

quote:

---

If she'd gotten people out of the burning buliding without resorting to anything sounding remotely like "move your ass", it would have been a million times better.

---

quote:

---

I will be very surprised if the show takes a great leap forward on ep. 6.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Glenn Arnold:
I don't think she'll amalgamate overall. They'll keep giving her opportunities to play different characters, but each one will be like a homework assignment. Get the character down, do some exercises, and then let Caroline show through. Very repertory theatre like.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by El JT de Spang:
I liked the last episode, but I got really annoyed with the ATF AIC went from being basically a true believer in justice to a vigilante with no provocation. When he told the team to let Boyd die (or shoot him if he was inside -- I forget which), it was the equivalent of a D&D alignment shift. Totally out of character, and crappy storytelling.

---

quote:

---

I have a very bad feeling that Caroline is the daughter of the woman running the Dollhouse.

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quote:

---

I have a very bad feeling that Caroline is the daughter of the woman running the Dollhouse.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sterling:

Right now I have a bad feeling that this is going to be a show that develops more and more holes as it goes on, rather than one that rewards people for remembering minutiae. Shows with holes can be fun, of course, but they also make long-term plot arcs problematic.

---

I didn't even realize that this is the kind of show that I'm attracted to until you said that. Looking back, it seems so obvious. I love series wrought with Cameos, Memes, and inside jokes throughout. The ones that you can go back and watch a dozen times and find something new every time. Things that people can tell you some random fact about and you say "Holy crap, I didn't even notice. I liked it before, but now..." Stories that are so meticulously planned out that nothing is an accident and their are no holes. This is why Fight Club is still my favorite movie of all time.
 

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Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
 
I am enjoying the show. The only thing that is bothering me, besides Echo always returning to be a badass, is that I don't see the motive for the FBI agent who is tracking The Dollhouse.

I know he is now getting clues, but his obsession started before the clues. Unless they hint at how he was personally affected by the Dollhouse, I just don't buy his character.
 

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Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
 
I'm discovering that my biggest problem with Dollhouse is that Caroline is pretty much Faith in a polo shirt. I'm really turned off by the possibility that Echo's original personality is going to become more prominent.

I also really wish the show would focus more on the characters and less on the "mission of the week." I have high hopes since it seems like alot of Joss' series start off like this, so hopefully episode 6 will really be the game-changer that the show needs. I'm really intrigued by Boyd and Topher and FBI-neighbor-girl. And I'm enjoying Sierra's and Victor's performances as well. I want to see more of all of them.

I have to say, I was really starting to think that Joss was improving on his leads. I've always preferred his secondary cast of characters but completely fell in love with Mal and Dr. Horrible. I never thought I'd see the day when Joss would create a main protagonist more annoying than Buffy.
 

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Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
I don't know about that. Tru wasn't Faith. She was way more vulnerable, and didn't have a fraction of Faith's edge. I don't see Caroline being Faith either.
 

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Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
 
My predictions about next week are that one of two things will happen:

1. Echo will escape the dollhouse after meeting up with Ballard. She will be imprinted with her personality du jour, which will now be permanent, so she will struggle with not really knowing who she is. She and Ballard will work together to bring down the dollhouse, and her personal connection with Victor and Sierra will work to her advantage.

2. Ballard will get too close, find out too much, and will be forced to choose between becoming an active and death, just as Echo did once upon a time.

I think part of the problem with the show as it stands is that nobody is in a position to truly love or care for one another. As such, the show feels heartless and none of the characters feel quite human. Also, the owners of the dollhouse seem to be shaping into the villains, so we're not supposed to relate to them. That only leaves Ballard and Boyd as the "hearts" of the show, and neither of them really fit the part. I really think Echo needs to get out of the dollhouse.
 

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Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
 
I like that the geeky scientist is arguably the most morally deranged and powerful of the lot. It's the mid-level dweeb who is really the engine for the dollhouse. Usually those guys are cast as benign or naive, but his eyes are wide open.

There seems to be a relationship budding between the doctor and the ex-cop. Even the head of security may not be such a black hat villain, and watching the head lady's world start to unravel may be neat. It's always nice to see control freaks come face to face with human finitude and the unpredictability of the future. She is doing well so far, but there is a potential for really explosive scenes.
 

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Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
 
I agree with everything you just said.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong:
Even the head of security may not be such a black hat villain

---

quote:

---

Even the head of security may not be such a black hat villain

---

quote:

---

Now, we've seen stuff from before he began to actively suspect Echo that indicates that he's an unplesant person, but that doesn't make him evil.

---

quote:

---

I think part of the problem with the show as it stands is that nobody is in a position to truly love or care for one another.

---

quote:

---

Echo's instinctive dislike of him seems to suggest otherwise, unless we are to distrust her feelings.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brinestone:
My predictions about next week are that one of two things will happen:

1. Echo will escape the dollhouse after meeting up with Ballard. She will be imprinted with her personality du jour, which will now be permanent, so she will struggle with not really knowing who she is. She and Ballard will work together to bring down the dollhouse, and her personal connection with Victor and Sierra will work to her advantage.

2. Ballard will get too close, find out too much, and will be forced to choose between becoming an active and death, just as Echo did once upon a time.

I think part of the problem with the show as it stands is that nobody is in a position to truly love or care for one another. As such, the show feels heartless and none of the characters feel quite human. Also, the owners of the dollhouse seem to be shaping into the villains, so we're not supposed to relate to them. That only leaves Ballard and Boyd as the "hearts" of the show, and neither of them really fit the part. I really think Echo needs to get out of the dollhouse.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Christine:
... And a possible bigger motive for the dollhouse than profit is definitely something I can get behind.

---

It has been something I've been wondering. Even the big amounts of cash that they collect from clients seems to be small compared to the cost of this facility, the technology involved, and the cost of secrecy.
It would make sense if there was a bigger game afoot like capturing loads of blackmail information on their clients which tend to be the rich and powerful, using that to gain power behind the scenes.
 

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Posted by Vadon (Member # 4561) on :
 
I bet there's quite a bit of Manchurian Candidate things going on. Perhaps a few dolls are in public office that help guarantee that they won't lose funding. Maybe they kidnap current politicians and just program in a desire to keep the Dollhouse operational and leave every other memory in tact.

There's a lot of potential. I love it.
 

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Posted by Tara (Member # 10030) on :
 
This got a terrible review from someone in People Magazine who apparently did like Buffy and Firefly.
 

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Posted by Jeorge (Member # 11524) on :
 
I had a weird moment of deja vu yesterday. I've been watching Buffy on hulu, and I just yesterday got to the episode where Buffy and Faith are having this massive fight over whether Faith is going to kill Angel. About two thirds of the way through, I was thinking to myself, "This fight is going on too long."

Then last night, when Faith...I mean, Echo...was fighting with the FBI guy, I thought, "This fight is going on too..."

Huh.
 

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Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
 
Bad, lame television: 5
The home viewership: 1

If the next four episodes are good, it'll be a tie. As good as this last episode was, I still find myself disappointed by that....
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
I will be really, really surprised if this show isn't canceled, and pleasantly surprised if they leave it on long enough to show us all the episodes they've made.

Had it not been for JW's name on the project, I would not have watched past the first episode. It improved steadily, but I suspect it is doomed.

I will be pleased to be proven wrong, though.
 

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Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
 
Ooo, I believe this show has officially hit its stride. This episode was excellent. The characters were all interesting - lovely.
 

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Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
 
This episode was great, but I think Fox's meddling with the first five effectively sabotaged the ratings enough to spell its doom.

I'll keep watching until they turn out the lights, though. And I'll keep a sharp eye on when they change the day and time.
 

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Posted by sylvrdragon (Member # 3332) on :
 
I agree that this last episode was a success.

I think either Echo's speech was part of Boss Lady's manipulation, or Topher's apprentice (possibly in league with Boyd) is the mole.

Anyone who DIDN'T suspect Neighbor girl as an active must have been watching a different show. I was actually kinda sad that it came true considering how blatantly obvious it was.

As for the Dollhouse being a cover for a bigger conspiracy, there are really only ever 3 motives for conspiracy: Money, Faith, or Patriotism (Politics 'For the greater good'). Well, I should say for a "Large Scale" conspiracy, as I'm sure the Pride of some rich powerful person could create some waves beneath the surface, but it doesn't seem likely when so many people are apparently involved.

I suppose there could be some sorta sci-fi "Save the world" plot, but so far, I can't really see a way to pull that off, so I'm banking with one of the big 3.
 

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Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
 
Boy did Fox frack up the first five or so. This was definitely a completely different show. All I have to say: He's baaack!

And once again in a situation where someone's screwing with him and not just letting him do his thing. Hopefully they'll realize that it was their screwing with him that got the bad ratings and reviews and give him enough time to do his thing and bring the good.
 

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Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
 
Holy cow, that was a good episode. The story was interesting, the characters were engaging, and there were enough twists and turns to interest me. I have to admit I wasn't expecting Millie to be a doll, mostly because I had a pet theory she was unknowingly in league with Alpha.

This episode wasn't even about Echo, which probably also makes it the best episode ever. She was in maybe what, three scenes? The people surrounding her in and out of the dollhouse are far more interesting.
 

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Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
 
Out of curiosity, where do you get the rating information you keep going on about? People keep saying that the show has bad ratings, is in danger of getting canceled...based on???

I've never been clear what makes a show succeed and what makes it fail. I tend not to watch new shows because quite frankly, the ones I get into get canceled. The ones that suck go on for years and years. So suckage doesn't seem to have much to do with the success or failure of a show. Let's not forget that Fox put this thing on Fridya night, which has to be the worst time slot imaginable. Makes me wonder how much faith they had in the show in the first place.

And for the record, while I thought that episode 6 was once again an improvement over the one before, I enjoyed the first 5 and still do not see what all the hostility towards them is about. It's a good show.
 

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Posted by Sala (Member # 8980) on :
 
Ahh, finally a good episode. All of the previous five were standard rehashes of standard tropes. Man chasing girl to kill her. Girl as whore. Girl in cult. My husband hated the first five episodes and said he might actually like the show now!
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 

quote:

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Out of curiosity, where do you get the rating information you keep going on about? People keep saying that the show has bad ratings, is in danger of getting canceled...based on???

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quote:

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And for the record, while I thought that episode 6 was once again an improvement over the one before, I enjoyed the first 5 and still do not see what all the hostility towards them is about. It's a good show.

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quote:

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Originally posted by FlyingCow:
I'm curious how much time-shifted viewers can be taken account. Ratings numbers are used to woo advertisers... and DVR pretty much kills commercial advertising.

Though Dollhouse has had its fair share of product placement, which would have to be taken into account with time-shifted viewing.

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quote:

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Anyone who DIDN'T suspect Neighbor girl as an active must have been watching a different show.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Chris Bridges:
I was pretty sure she was, but during that episode I started doubting since she was urging the Fed to keep investigating. Darn you, Whedon!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fyfe:
I suspected she was. She just had such a sweet innocent face and such sweet innocent lasagna.

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In my world, having an innocent face and making home-cooked meals is not suspicious.

Although I should have been suspicious that they kept paying more attention to her than her role seemed to deserve.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 

quote:

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In my world, having an innocent face and making home-cooked meals is not suspicious.

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quote:

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And Lo! Echo had some extra programming!

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quote:

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Remember, Victor said that if the Dollhouse existed, he'd sign up.

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quote:

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It's clear that we're being led to suspect the assistant, but that alone is reason for me to suspect it'll actually end up being Topher.

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quote:

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Originally posted by El JT de Spang:
It was either Topher or his assistant.

It's clear that we're being led to suspect the assistant, but that alone is reason for me to suspect it'll actually end up being Topher.

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quote:

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Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
Therefore I clearly cannot choose the wine in front of Noemon.

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quote:

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Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:

quote:

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It's clear that we're being led to suspect the assistant, but that alone is reason for me to suspect it'll actually end up being Topher.

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Really? I went back and watched that scene more than once, and I don't think we're supposed to suspect anybody.

If I were to guess, I'd guess the head lady.

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quote:

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Originally posted by El JT de Spang:
[QB]I'm basing that on the fact that we've only seen three people who have the skills to put together a wipe: Topher, the assistant, and Alpha. And I don't consider it likely that Alpha was able to access the drive inside the Dollhouse and modify it.

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quote:

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Im pretty sure it wasnt Topher. When he puts the disk into the slot and Boyd calls him outside the shot lingers on the door beside his desk for a moment and its closed. When he comes back though its open.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Damien.m:
Im pretty sure it wasnt Topher. When he puts the disk into the slot and Boyd calls him outside the shot lingers on the door beside his desk for a moment and its closed. When he comes back though its open.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The White Whale:

quote:

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Originally posted by Damien.m:
Im pretty sure it wasnt Topher. When he puts the disk into the slot and Boyd calls him outside the shot lingers on the door beside his desk for a moment and its closed. When he comes back though its open.

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Good catch. There's also ominous music at that same point.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Noemon:
Given that, a lingering shot and ominous music don't necessarily mean anything.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Damien.m:
Im pretty sure it wasnt Topher. When he puts the disk into the slot and Boyd calls him outside the shot lingers on the door beside his desk for a moment and its closed. When he comes back though its open.

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quote:

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This was the first episode where I could understand paying an obscene amount of money for a programmable person.

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quote:

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So she remembers that agent x tried to kill her, and the next episode agent x is killed. She gets her way.

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When did he try to kill her? I remember blond security guy trying to kill her (in the dumbest way possible), but how did the guy that died to that?
 

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Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
 
Ya know, there's something seriously twisted when we've got Dollhouse/Princess Bride crossovers going on...
 

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Posted by Risuena (Member # 2924) on :
 
Inconceivable!
 

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Posted by dabbler (Member # 6443) on :
 

quote:

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We believe that the root personality that is left from the wipe is the doll personality. On top of that personality others are placed. But what if echo had herself layered so that underneath the root personality is a real, or at least another spy personality. It is a sleeper like from this episode.

---

And sometimes there is a third, even deeper layer, and that one is the same as the top, surface one. Like with pie.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Or onions.
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
Parfait
 

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Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
 
Gah. Now I hear Donkey. Vizzini was better.
 

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Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
 
The doll that is dating the agent brought up a question for me. For a long term assignment, wouldn't the agent become less predictable? The experiences the woman has will change her. So, right now, she loves the agent, but what about if he does x? Dolls have programmed personalities, but they can still make decisions. The longer they are away, the more those decisions could differ from the plan.
 

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Posted by Miro (Member # 1178) on :
 
They could bring her back to the Dollhouse periodically for updates/adjustments.
 

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Posted by Vadon (Member # 4561) on :
 
Still, didn't one of the Dollhouse staff get angry because Victor was being re-imprinted with the same identity again and again?

It seems like the updates/adjustments would be problematic too.
 

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Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
My guess is Millie is actually Millie -- the Dollhouse merely imprinted her with triggerable combat skills and stuff like that. But unless she's activated she's herself, and thus not at risk.
 

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Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
 
Well, hopefully they will answer these questions eventually. The last episode was much better then the earlier ones, so maybe there is reason to hope. The first ones were watchable, but the 6th was just so much better. I would have made that one the first episode personally.
 

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Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
 
But didn't a lot of the twists depend on some of the knowledge of the characters that the first five episodes gave? Like Millie/Ballard, Boyd's concern for Echo, and the Echo/Victor/Sierra dynamic?

I'd like to hear someone who hasn't seen any episodes thinks of the sixth.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
I've asked a couple of friends who haven't seen episodes 1-5 to give episode 6 a try. If either of them do so, I'll let you know what they thought of it.
 

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Posted by dabbler (Member # 6443) on :
 
Actually I watched episode 6 as my first b/c of how hulu organizes them. It felt pretty whirlwind. The tv segments made it feel like a pilot ep. I was wondering why agent Ballard was telling his neighbor all that (still am). I got teary listening to the Internet guy's story. It did work as a first episode, though.
 

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Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
 
So what did people think of last nights episode? I just got a chance to watch it on Hulu now. I'm still processing it, right now my only clear thought is that: Joss is baaackkk!
 

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Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
 
My main thought was from the next week episode- that seems way, way too fast. I hope there is more to Echo's story then what we have seen.
 

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Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
 
That's exactly what I thought! The episode was interesting, and I was pleased that they got the new guy for the Dollhouse, but yeah, Echo's backstory wasn't very substantial.
 

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Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Alcon:
So what did people think of last nights episode? I just got a chance to watch it on Hulu now. I'm still processing it, right now my only clear thought is that: Joss is baaackkk!

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quote:

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Originally posted by MrSquicky:
So far, I thought episode 5 was very good, but the best I can say for the show is that it got me watching the immensely better Pretender on hulu.

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quote:

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In fact, the heart of the show is about what makes us who we are, why we define ourselves by profession, personality, family, etc.

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quote:

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- posted March 28, 2009 01:14 PM Profile for MrSquicky Email MrSquicky Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote

quote:Originally posted by Alcon:
So what did people think of last nights episode? I just got a chance to watch it on Hulu now. I'm still processing it, right now my only clear thought is that: Joss is baaackkk! [Smile]

Seriously?

I thought it was a trainwreck. Unbelievable and poorly constructed through and through. The flashbacks were horribly written and acted. It made no sense for them to be presented the way they were.

---

quote:

---

This show is doomed, isn't it?

---

If you had accepted since the beginning the fact that it was doomed because (1) Joss was involved with it, and (2) it aired on FOX's "Friday night death slot", it's much easier to bear.
 

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Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
 
But if Joss' shows were canceled based on the first half of a season, we wouldn't have Buffy of Angel. And both Buffy and Angel got better in the second season and beyond.

And yes, I'm quite aware of the Firefly Exception.
 

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Posted by sylvrdragon (Member # 3332) on :
 
Did anyone else find it disconcerting how Echo didn't take the vial of Green Stuff from Sam's bag after Boyd came to get her? Instead, they (presumably) left him lying there on a ground to do whatever he pleased with the vial once he got back up. I don't know; maybe they rounded him up directly after that and just didn't feel the need to show it. I suppose one could say that him being interviewed to be a Doll was a sign that he had given up, but I don't like that there was no closure on that missing Vial.

Truth be told, I haven't been impressed by ANYONE'S acting in this show so far, least of all the woman that plays Echo (Amy Ackler I think I heard?). Well... I suppose I like Ballard, but that's probably bias left over from BSG.

I was just a tad disappointed to find out that Dewitt and Topher weren't actives. A big huge conspiracy world where you suspect people at every level seems much more interesting at a glance. I suppose it isn't yet out of reach though. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

This episode reminded me again of why I hate activists and hippies. To quote a friend of mine: "I would condone the killing of every puppy, kitten and baby rabbit born this month if it meant that this aspirin got rid of my headache one minute faster." I don't respect people who humanize animals... If Caroline's missing two years don't involve a reality check at some point, then I will personally be rooting for the Dollhouse and their conspiracy over her getting her personality back a second before her five year contract is up.
 

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Posted by dantesparadigm (Member # 8756) on :
 
They were testing on babies too, that's kind of pushing it.
 

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Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
 
It hit me that the "saving minds" in the Rossum ad probably isn't curing disorders. It means backing stuff up to a hard drive.

They probably have a resurrection ship in orbit.
 

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Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by dantesparadigm:
They were testing on babies too, that's kind of pushing it.

---

Yeap, they were, but Caroline's outrage was towards animal testing. Blind luck made it that her "theory" ("if they're doing this on animals, who knows what else they're doing") proved true with this particular company, but it's a leap of reasoning based on nothing. Yes, they're evil, but Caroline was quite dumb too. In a way, I'm ok with this; having a "hero activist" turned into a doll would have seemed too much like a movie plot; a silly girl turned into a doll works just fine in "reality", although I expect that when she snaps out of it she'll feel even more righteous about stopping all animal testing. I'd like the series to show that part too.
 

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Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 

quote:

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Blind luck

---

quote:

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"I would condone the killing of every puppy, kitten and baby rabbit born this month if it meant that this aspirin got rid of my headache one minute faster."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dantesparadigm:
Yes.

---

quote:

---

Don't you bad mouth Amy Acker. Amy Acker is doing a great job as the doctor. I think she'd be doing even more for the show as Echo, but that role went to Elisa Dushku.

---

quote:

---

...there's real darkness there

---

quote:

---

I think we're supposed to view Caroline as a well-meaning, but self-righteous (and terribly unpragmatic) young college student

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tarrsk:
I might be the only one, but I think that Caroline's PETA stance is supposed to come off as shockingly naive.

---

quote:

---

The "doesn't eat meat" bit served three purposes:

---

quote:

---

Is it me or did the techie guy that Agent Helo took the recording device to look like Alan Tudyk?

---

I saw no resemblance.
 

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Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
 
I saw a resemblance, but it wasn't Tudyk.
 

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Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
 
Checked the IMDB credits for the episode... Not him.

I saw him and he, at least in my eyes, resembled Tudyk if he gained a few pounds.

BTW: Tudyk's no longer listed in IMDB credits as Alpha. Not that it means much, but still.
 

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Posted by TheGrimace (Member # 9178) on :
 
Nighthawk, I did a triple-take on the first couple seconds of him and thought the same thing. Once the camera actually focuses on him it's obvious that it's not Tudyk, but certainly bears some vague resemblence.
 

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Posted by dantesparadigm (Member # 8756) on :
 
I thought the same thing. I'm a little disappointed it's not him.
 

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Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
 
I also thought that for a bit, even when he spoke.

Gah! Can't we just have Alan Tudyk already?!
 

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Posted by dabbler (Member # 6443) on :
 

quote:

---

Checked the IMDB credits for the episode... Not him.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fyfe:
I am ready for Alpha to show up!!!

---

This. A hundred times this. During every episode, I keep hoping that Alpha's lurking just off-camera, and one well-timed angle will reveal him.

I also liked tonight's episode - at one point, I blinked twice and asked myself when the show had become somewhat rad. There was a lot going on, and I stopped and actually watched tonight - DeWitt's thing with Victor, Echo's continued 'evolution'... all pretty interesting. The November reveal was awesome, though it's going to give me perpetual Boomer flashes. Perpetual, I say.
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
Between this and the Terminator finale, I'd say this was a pretty awesome Friday night. My roommate had given up on Dollhouse a few episodes ago but ended up watching out of boredom tonight, and now is ready to go back and catch up.
 

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Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
 
Carrie - Hahaha, I hadn't even thought of that, but you're so right! Poor Helo can never cut a break.
 

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Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
I really enjoyed this episode. It might be my favourite one, actually. I loved how the same scene was shot from multiple perspectives, giving us some new insight each time.
 

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Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
 

quote:

---

I loved how the same scene was shot from multiple perspectives, giving us some new insight each time.

---

Ooh, that sounded kind of Enderish. How appropriate.
 

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Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
 
I liked this episode. Poor Ballard, being strung along and abused. I'm looking forward to seeing how he reacts and how his character continues to develop. I liked what they did with Adelle, showing some of her weakness and doubt, but, and please correct me if I'm wrong, being shot in the abdomen tends to be, well, painful and I image a crisis, yes? I could buy that she would suffer through it to see Mr. Dominic get wiped, but then the full conversation with Topher out in the hall afterward without so much as wincing was a little too much.

quote:

---

I loved how the same scene was shot from multiple perspectives, giving us some new insight each time.

---

quote:

---

please correct me if I'm wrong, being shot in the abdomen tends to be, well, painful and I image a crisis

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheGrimace:

Problems:
2) Why? I can potentially understand wanting to keep the technology from being brought to the public (i.e. inter-departmental rivalries etc). But why would the NSA think that the dollhouse was better off in the hands of some private corporation than either under their control or gone entirely?

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quote:

---

3) Was the re-programming that we have seen (Echo and November) actually the work of Dominic? Or is there still another player working here? Did someone else discover the chip and use it to their own ends? Are there other agents with alternate goals?

---

quote:

---

The trouble is that they specifically mention that the chip is NSA tech and is used to change the Active's parameters... at least implying that Dominic was using that chip...

---

I think the best answer is that Dominic put the chip there, and the infiltrator found out, and started using it.
 

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Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
 
Is it just me, or does Dominic (here) bear somewhat of a resemblance to Alan Tudyk (here)? (What? So what if I'm obsessed with the latter?!) I confess myself strangely intrigued by this, even if I'm way off-target.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
They're both blond guys. Other than that, no.
 

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Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
 
It's an easy mistake.

White guys do look kinda similar, but if you get to know them and learn what differences there are to look for, it becomes a lot easier to tell them apart.
 

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Posted by Vadon (Member # 4561) on :
 
For those who want to know what Tudyk's involvement might* entail, there is some info on the upcoming episodes on this wiki page.

* It's on the internet, and I don't trust future episode summaries until I see them with my own eyes.
 

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Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
 
I do find myself confusing reddish-tinged white guys. They all look the same, really.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
I understand. I keep confuse Viggo Mortensen with myself all the time.
 

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Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
I always thought Dominic looked more like Kevin McKidd's brother in Journeyman.
 

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Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mucus:
It's an easy mistake.

White guys do look kinda similar, but if you get to know them and learn what differences there are to look for, it becomes a lot easier to tell them apart.

---

 

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Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
 
I think Dominic is being dragged out as a smoke-n-mirrors distraction. We were never intended to like him or grow attached to him in any way, so sending him to the attic becomes easy. I don't see how he could alter the Actives' programming. If we assume the programming was altered from within the Dollhouse, then I think it's either Topher or Ivy. But I still want to know who managed that remote wipe on Echo during the art heist assignment and how - and wonder if that was a hint to this.

I found it vaguely disturbing that the repeated lonely-hearts imprint that had Doc so spazzed out was for Boss Lady. And I wonder who the old lady is to Adele to be acting as a cover story and how Victor manages to elude his handler and the monitoring equipment for an entire weekend. Surely someone would have made a connection by now?

And I'm not sure how to feel about Mellie being the newest messenger and Paul's reaction. Paul's supposed to not let Mellie see or hear about his investigation so the Dollhouse doesn't get it. Which to me means he's going to break up with her now that he knows she's a doll. The alternative would be to drop the search entirely, but that would mean giving up on finding Caroline - and we still don't know why he's so obsessed with her, right? - as well as now giving up on Mellie. Now it's more personal, and I think his efforts are going to increase.
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
So, according to imdb, A Spy in the House of Love will air on April 24, which is odd, considering it aired last week. Even odder, Haunted also airs April 24.

Now my real question is: was there a Dollhouse episode last Friday or what?
 

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Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
 
No, there wasn't. I don't remember why, but there was a valid reason.
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
Ok. I was trying to find the episode online, because I thought I had missed it. But Hulu and the Fox website don't actually list the episode schedule, per se, so I couldn't tell if the episode hadn't aired or if it just wasn't available yet.
 

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Posted by Vadon (Member # 4561) on :
 
Double Prison Break episodes were in its slot.

But the next episode should be playing next week.
 

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Posted by swbarnes2 (Member # 10225) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Goody Scrivener:

And I'm not sure how to feel about Mellie being the newest messenger and Paul's reaction. Paul's supposed to not let Mellie see or hear about his investigation so the Dollhouse doesn't get it. Which to me means he's going to break up with her now that he knows she's a doll.

---

That would be a very bad idea, and Paul knows that. If the Dollhouse can't monitor Paul, they will kill him. With her body. He's going to stay with her, and give her false information about how his investigation is going.

I think the problem is going to be that it's very easy for Paul to say that the fake personalities that last a weekend aren't real people, and it's okay to wipe them away for the sake of the real Caroline. But Mellie is not only a creation of Topher, she's lived so long, she's probably a valid person in her own right. I think that both Mellie and Katie's mom have valid moral claims to existance, and it will be very hard to choose one over the other, but Paul will probably have to make that choice.
 

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Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
 
Hi, can it be next week yet?
 

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Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
 
This episode was sad. I liked it though, and I am very, very, very, very excited for next week.
 

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Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
 
Eliza did a good job this week. However, who ever decided to give her that annoying piece of hair that was hanging on the side of her face...he or he is a bad person!

The main storyline was boring but I got seriously teary-eyed when they explained Topher's "diagnostic tests." Paul as a character continues to grow on me and I always love seeing Sierra and Victor.

Can't wait to see Alan T next week and I can't believe that Paul is going to be in the Dollhouse. If it comes back for another season, it'll be interesting to see what Joss does with the show.
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
Yeah, I find myself liking Sierra way more than Echo.

I didn't like this story as much as I thought I was going to, but I did appreciate seeing Eliza play someone other than Doll or Tough Girl.
 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
I thought last night's episode was the worst so far. I didn't care about the dead woman or anyone else involved in the murder mystery, and I thought it once again highlighted Dushku's limited range as an actress.

Next week's episode, however, looks very good.
 

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Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
 
I thought Sierra did a brilliant job as Topher's buddy... we really need to see more of her.
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
i didn't think Dushku did a great job, but I didn't think she did a bad one either, and it was nice to see at least trying to stretch.
 

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Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
That was amazing. Though I thought Topher and his friend (they never gave the friend's name, did they?) were specifically talking about Star Trek TOS, and not classic SF in general.
 

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Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
 
It wasn't the best episode I've seen, but I enjoyed it very much, and I realize now how upset I'll be if the show is canceled.

Oh noes! I've become emotionally invested in the characters!
 

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Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
 
Gosh... Where can I find a friend like Sierra? She's so COOL!

Must... find... Dollhouse!
 

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Posted by Sala (Member # 8980) on :
 
I wondered if Topher downloaded himself as his own companion . . . if no one could keep up with him unless they were him! I really liked Sierra's role as the buddy. It was great seeing him interact like a real person. So sad about the explanation, though.
 

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Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
 
That's what I was guessing he did from the beginning. It seems like they would have told us though, so I guess not.
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
Did we already have a discussion of whether the Dollhouse could lead to a sort of Dollhouse-singularity? Engineer the perfect Dollhouse engineer, who can design better Dollhouse engineers who design better Dollhouses which can be used to design better Dollhouse engineers which eventually would probably lead to a super-Alpha (Omega, hee hee) that makes humanity obsolete.

I'm not quite sure what the significance of that is, but the possibility intrigues me.
 

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Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
Sounds like a Von Neumann kind of thing.
 

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Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
 

quote:

---

I wondered if Topher downloaded himself as his own companion . . .

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quote:

---

Sounds like a Von Neumann kind of thing.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
Actually, I think that idea might also have come from someone else. I vaguely remember talking about this before, but can't remember where and whose idea was which.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Nighthawk:

quote:

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I wondered if Topher downloaded himself as his own companion . . .

---

Topher is genuinely afraid of sitting in the chair himself. I can't imagine him going through the procedure, especially since he knows he's pretty much the only person that can run the equipment reliably in the first place.

---

Aside from that, how weird would it be to have to wipe yourself? And wouldn't you have to construct a "you" who wasn't aware that that was what was going to happen?

Topher's talked up his ability to cobble together personalities and skills often enough for me to believe him capable of creating his own "best friend".

I will say that this is possibly the first episode I felt some sympathy for the guy, so that's deserves some kudos.

(who doesn't like chocolate-covered granola? )
 

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Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
 
Topher can't be the only one who can run the chair reliably. We know there are other Dollhouses. Especially now with the son admitting to being a client of the Manhattan house.

I didn't care for the Echo storyline. Too self-serving (for Adele and Margaret) in a way that her other assignments didn't touch. The Topher/Sierra imprint side story was nice. And I always love seeing Victor.

And can the Dollhouse really have that much influence that a fingerprint search can completely wipe ALL of the FBI records on that person? People? Sheesh, how many identities did Mellie/November/Annabelle have? Wow. I wonder what happens when the dolls finish out their contract and return to the real world... or do they ever get that far?
 

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Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
 
Another question is, why were all those identities in the FBI database in the first place?!? I understand her real identity being there. But the others? It's like the dollhouse did sloppy work just so that it could delete the files afterwards. Woohoo, we can delete FBI files!

Or, maybe it was Dominic that put all the info there? But he said his goal was not to destroy the dollhouse. Why then put it at risk like that?
 

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Posted by sylvrdragon (Member # 3332) on :
 
I'm fascinated by the concept of hearing what other people (Who really know you) think about you and what they suspect your motives to be etc. I know it isn't an original concept, but I haven't seen it in a while and I like how JW realized the potential for that story existed within his world. Kind of like a reverse Speaker for the Dead. Instead of telling the truth from their perspective, you tell THEM the truth from the from the view of everyone else.

At first, I suspected that Topher's friend was the mind of an actual person that maybe knew about the Dollhouse (much like Echo's Character), but the way it actually turned out was a better story.

I think Topher is actually my favorite character, and always has been. I can empathize with him best of any of the characters. Of course, I think he was characterized more than any of the others too. No other character has really related how they think of themselves- which I think is the most important piece of information that you NEED to empathize with someone. Getting to know someone by their actions is one thing, but knowing their motives and how they see themselves... it's exactly as OSC put it in Ender's Game "You can't truly know somebody... and not love them the way they love themselves."

More writers need to learn this.

I suppose it's only natural that I liked this episode. I saw in it some of the styles of a Writer that I already know I like.
 

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Posted by Amilia (Member # 8912) on :
 
Corwin: Maybe she was a career conartist with multiple identities that had gotten into trouble before she went into the dollhouse, and part of the deal with becoming a doll was that her record would be wiped clean?
 

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Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
It looked to me like those were identities she'd had as a Doll where she'd gotten picked up by the police. Given what some of the fantasies might have been among their clients, that wouldn't surprise me all that much. What I don't get is why they'd let it get into the system, and only delete it when someone was looking.
 

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Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
 
Not only that, remove it from the screen while someone is looking at it.

The ability to delete a thread on Hatrack is fairly trivial given the right permissions. The ability to delete a thread on Hatrack and simultaneously force all computers currently viewing that thread to close and retain no records of that thread is a slightly more impressive ability.
 

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Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lisa:
It looked to me like those were identities she'd had as a Doll where she'd gotten picked up by the police. Given what some of the fantasies might have been among their clients, that wouldn't surprise me all that much. What I don't get is why they'd let it get into the system, and only delete it when someone was looking.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Goody Scrivener:
And I always love seeing Victor.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fyfe:
Edit to add: Victor-as-Lawrence said "Whiskey" when Dr. Saunders gave him the shot. Dr. Saunders quickly said, "He wants a drink." We've never met a Doll called Whiskey but it would be a Doll's name. Is he referencing a Doll that we've never met before? Addressing somebody in the room with him at the time?

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quote:

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I have ten bazillion questions, chief amongst them (I think!) being, Why is Alpha Topher? It is very, very baffling. Also, who was Topher first? Was the original architect, Stephen Whatshisface, the original Topher? Are Nice Alpha and Topher both copies of Stephen Whatsit, or is Nice Alpha a composite of Stephen Whatsit and Topher (among other things)?

---

Okay, I seem to have missed something here. Topher is Alpha? Good Alpha? When and how was this revealed? I really missed it.
 

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Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
 
Nowhere in the episode was it indicated that Alpha was Topher. I don't know Fyfe is talking about. Unless I missed a lot.

I wish they would do more with Amy Acker.
 

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Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
 
It doesn't get revealed, I just noticed. Watch Alpha when Ballard goes to visit him - his mannerisms and ways of speaking are exactly like Topher's. It makes me slightly wonder whether Topher may be a Doll. (Whiskey?)
 

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Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
 
I still don't see it.
 

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Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
 
Seriously, once you notice, it's unmistakable. Topher's always gesturing with one hand with the thumb and forefinger touching, and Alpha does that; Topher does that thing where he pauses, draws out a few words, and then rushes through the next bunch, and Alpha does that. I feel very impressed with Alan Tudyk's leet acting skillz.
 

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Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
 
Alright, I've watched it again and I think you're right. Does Alpha then have a bunch of imprints that he can utilize? If he does, and he has Topher's imprint (that means that Topher is an active)...wow. Who's not an active?

Fyfe, you're right. Once you notice, it is unmistakable.
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
I've already mentally prepared myself for everyone and her sister turning out to be a doll. The Alpha/Topher thing is interesting, although there's so many different ways it could play out that I can't begin to speculate.
 

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Posted by Jeorge (Member # 11524) on :
 
I've found the series moderately interesting all season, but this week's episode was the first time I thought, "I hope they don't cancel this..."
 

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Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
 
The White Whale and Raymond Arnold: only a few episodes ago we saw who was and who wasn't an active by how they reacted to a chemical. If Topher turns out to be an active they're doing it wrong.

So no, Topher may not be an active, but that doesn't mean that his brain couldn't have been scanned. Scanning doesn't kill you or instantly erase your memory, as can be seen from the old lady that got killed in the previous episode.
 

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Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
 

quote:

---

The White Whale and Raymond Arnold: only a few episodes ago we saw who was and who wasn't an active by how they reacted to a chemical. If Topher turns out to be an active they're doing it wrong.

---

Now I'm really going to have to re-watch that to see if the doctor has any reaction.
 

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Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
Amy Acker is Whiskey, not Topher.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Yeah, and it would explain Alpha's talent with the Dollhouse's computers far better than "I made this place, even if I didn't know where it was" , which was the line they tried to use.

And since Topher could have made NEW passwords since the scan, it would cover why Alpha couldn't use Topher's computer to do it. Although why in the world they won't change all of it anyway I'll never know.
 

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Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
It's possible that every Dollhouse has it's own Topher. A full time active that never gets imprinted with anything else. All with the exact same imprint.
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
It's also possible that Topher merely imprinted his own personality into Alpha during one of the testing stages. Topher obviously DOES think so highly of himself that I wouldn't put it past him to assume his level of brilliance was clearly something worth experimenting with.
 

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Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
 
I officially agree that Amy Acker is a Doll. I thought about it some more - the Alpha argument is compelling, and now that I'm thinking about it, Victor is looking straight at her when he says "Whiskey". First he says "Topher!" and then "Adelle, don't do this," and then, as Amy Acker is giving him a shot, "Whiskey!"
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
Also, Alpha slashes the faces of dolls, for whatever reason, and he slashed Amy Acker's face as well. It may be that he's marking dolls so they can be identified.
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
That is interesting and logical (in a serial killer kinda way).
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
Also, what exactly has Amy Acker DONE that's got everyone so ga-ga over her? I haven't seen her earlier work, so all I have to go off is a pretty, sad looking face.
 

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Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
 
She was Fred in Angel - she was a total dear. I've seen her briefly in a few other things, but mainly I love her because she was such a dear as Fred.
 

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Posted by Amilia (Member # 8912) on :
 
Theory: Echo tells the little girl to think of herself as the prince. She will swoop in and rescue herself. What if part of Alpha's imprint is Caroline? Which is why Echo is the only doll who was left alive after Alpha's original killing spree. She didn't even get her face slashed.

Course, I'm not as familiar with Caroline's mannerisms as I am with Topher's. So I don't actually have anything else going for this theory other than it is interesting and it fits with the prince coming to rescue her thing they had going.

Or maybe she somehow programmed Alpha.
 

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Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
Also, what exactly has Amy Acker DONE that's got everyone so ga-ga over her? I haven't seen her earlier work, so all I have to go off is a pretty, sad looking face.

---

She charmed the pants off of everyone in Angel. Whedon, at one point, said that he realized that "Fred" (her character) was the only thing that every other character in (and viewer of) the show loved (... ).
 

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Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
 
I'm just happy to be vindicated in my belief that Alan Tudyk is Alpha. I must have read it somewhere early on (within two episodes), but the spoiler got erased. It's been a confusing couple of months with the attempted misdirection about his character.
 

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Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
 
It was up on IMDB for awhile, then removed. And now he's back.
 

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Posted by adfectio (Member # 11070) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Glenn Arnold:
Also, Alpha slashes the faces of dolls, for whatever reason, and he slashed Amy Acker's face as well. It may be that he's marking dolls so they can be identified.

---

That's not actually true. He may slash mostly dolls, but then there's the problem of the older man who actually did design the system. His face was slashed as well, and I don't see any evidence that he's a doll.

I never would have caught Alpha acting like Topher if it hadn't been mentioned here, though.
 

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Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
 
First impression: wow, Alan Tudyk has really put on some muscle since Firefly! They certainly got him into doll shape...

Second, shouldn't Ballard be noticing these things? Despite his knowledge of dollhouse he doesn't even question the beautiful neighbor who's always making him food and can break necks at the drop of a hat until it's blatantly shoved in his face. Now, he meets up with a pothead who never goes out and drinks his own urine, but is somehow built like an athlete, and doesn't even question it, he's so focused on "save Caroline!" Anyone else think he's not the smartest cookie in the jar? (especially since his entire job is supposedly putting together small clues)

I enjoyed some of the quick references to other sci-fi shows of similar nature in this episode. At one point, Topher says "frak!" (a reference to BSG), and at another, Adelle briefly mentions visiting "the Centre". (a pretty blatant reference to The Pretender)

Show's getting better, really liked some of the personal touches in the last few episodes, made the characters a bit more human.
 

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Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
 
Well, the way the "Russian" assassin was killed in Ballard's apartment -- neck snapped after head rammed into coffee table during struggle -- could have been an accident, and he had no reason to think it wasn't until later. And Tudyk did not look muscular until a) he put on the skin tight clothing and b) started carrying himself like Alpha. Initially he looked like a stoner. Then he put the clothes on and you could tell he was in decent shape, but didn't look especially ripped.
Then he appeared in front of Dr. Saunders, and he was both powerful and menacing.

Tudyk himself said he has a Ned Flanders sort of body, you don't notice the muscle right away.

Also, the BSG reference? Possibly because the episode was written by Jane Espenson, one of the BSG writers
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
I like that the Frak actually made sense in context, since it's perfectly reasonable to assume Topher HAS seen BSG and has simply adopted the use of the word for himself (I've done that with some shows I like)
 

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Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
It's also possible that Topher merely imprinted his own personality into Alpha during one of the testing stages. Topher obviously DOES think so highly of himself that I wouldn't put it past him to assume his level of brilliance was clearly something worth experimenting with.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chris Bridges:
General consensus on Whedonesque is that Alpha was, at some point, one of Topher's birthday buddies, imprinted by Topher with Topher.

---

quote:

---

Chekov's gun?

---

quote:

---

Sierra didn't quite seem like a Topher clone...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The White Whale:
Alright, I've watched it again and I think you're right. Does Alpha then have a bunch of imprints that he can utilize? If he does, and he has Topher's imprint (that means that Topher is an active)...wow. Who's not an active?

Fyfe, you're right. Once you notice, it is unmistakable.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Goody Scrivener:
With regard to that psych drug from the college campus... I seem to recall Echo, Victor and Sierra all reacted, although later than "normal" people.

---

But not like normal people. Normal people went loopy. Echo, Victor and Sierra all started flashing back to old imprints.

Topher and DeWitt reacted like everyone else.
 

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Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
 
I think they really have exhausted the pool of potential surprise dolls at this point. It's not an interesting reveal anymore, anyway
 

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Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
 
Yeah, I'm kind of with you, Puppy.
 

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Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Puppy:
I think they really have exhausted the pool of potential surprise dolls at this point. It's not an interesting reveal anymore, anyway

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Puppy:
I think they really have exhausted the pool of potential surprise dolls at this point. It's not an interesting reveal anymore, anyway

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sylvrdragon:
In any case, I think we can make a good case that Alpha was the "Inside man" that imprinted the secret message in Echo and November in order to get Ballard to take him into the Dollhouse and divert Boyd. If he has Topher's skills, then I don't think it would be beyond him, even if he had to do it remotely.

---

The trouble with this is that we saw a scene with Alpha mailing the picture/video of alpha to Ballard, yet when Millie/November is talking with Ballard she states that the inside man did not send the envelopes. So unless he imprinted her to lie about that (and it doesn't seem like there is any reason for that) it's a no-go.

Also, my guess (though admittedly it's just a guess) is that Alpha needed Ballard to lead him back to the Dollhouse because he had forgotten where it was. Or perhaps he was just bringing Ballard there to distract security while he went for Echo.

Additionally, when re-watching the episode where they catch Dominic, and there's still points of confusion/error that are bugging me..

1) Dominic claims that the chip is NSA tech, but makes no claims that he has been using it. He claims that he's been honest about his methods, and that he's only worked to protect the Dollhouse. The usages of the chip that we've seen haven't seemed to be in-line with Dominic's stated goals or claims to have been honest about his methods. but then why would he claim the chip was NSA?

2) It's questionable whether Millie's corrupted imprint was performed after the chip was removed. Though I guess I could chalk this up to time compression or something and say that Topher discovered it immediately after imprinting her (but then wouldn't he have tried holding off on letting her go?).

The basic conundrum here is whether or not Dominic was actually using the chip or if he's covering for someone else for some reason.

We have plenty of candidates who could have implanted/used it for various reasons, but Dominic just doesn't seem right.
 

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Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
 
It's possible that after the Alpha attack, they moved the Dollhouse to a different location so that he wouldn't be able to find his way back. As a safety precaution. And he dangled Ballard in front of the Dollhouse to get them to slip up enough so that he could get their location.
 

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Posted by dabbler (Member # 6443) on :
 
I thought the NSA chip was planted by Dominic and had nothing to do with Millie's secret reveal.

Doesn't sound likely they moved the location. It does sound odd that Alpha didn't know where it was. At the least Ballard was a useful sidekick for him to get in and out with little detection. Seems like a lot of effort to slowly entice Ballard with enough information to finally find it.
 

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Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
 
Yay for Whedon et al. I think they did a great job with this first season, especially once Fox let them off their leash. It looks to be exiting, unique, quirky, and entertaining (provided it's not canceled).

I'm liking the idea of Alpha viewing himself as a ubermensch, with a hard core schizophrenia of his several dozen personalities. I like the idea of Ballard 'working' for the Dollhouse. I'm sure he's still going to try and take it down, but it'll be interesting to see how he handles it, and how Adelle handles him. I'm liking Dr. Saunders' / Whiskey's self-awareness as a doll, and look forward to see how that develops, along with her and Topher's relationship.

I think the show has proven it's potential, and just hope that Fox sees that.
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
I loved Alpha's acting, and actually was kinda impressed with Echo's acting as well. There were a few moments where you saw her shift personalities and I was surprised that I could recognized.
 

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Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
 
I'm not sure how I felt about this episode. Somehow it made Alpha less scary to me. I did like Whiskey's self-awareness.
 

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Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
 
I definitely agree - love it that Whiskey now knows she's a doll.
 

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Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
I found it a little jarring that Alpha suddenly had trouble keeping his personalities in check when in the very last episode he spent quite a good chunk of time pretending to be the building designer guy, and pulling it off perfectly.

Other than that, I really enjoyed it. I've always liked Whiskey and I'm really glad to see her character developing.
 

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Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
 
If there is a second season, I'm wondering how/if we'll see November anymore. I hope it's something more than Ballard stalking her and hitting on her every chance he gets.

And the first scene where Whiskey is giving the captive a lap dance... that was way more hot than anything Echo could have done.
 

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Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
 
I think that Alpha had trouble in last night's episode keeping the personalities straight because he was not really trying with Echo. Echo was his soulmate, he figured he did not need to keep up appearances with her, he could just relax and be himself.
 

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Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
 
It's not looking good...
 

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Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by twinky:
I found it a little jarring that Alpha suddenly had trouble keeping his personalities in check when in the very last episode he spent quite a good chunk of time pretending to be the building designer guy, and pulling it off perfectly.

---

I kind of assumed that he wasn't really going out in public and interacting with people, so that there wasn't much stress put on his keeping the personalities straight.

See also: certain copious amounts of medicinal plants.
 

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Posted by sarahdipity (Member # 3254) on :
 
Do they count online ratings when counting viewership?
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
They do (sometimes) but it doesn't count for as much.
 

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Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
 
Hope the Fox folks looking at the ratings will take into account the new Star Trek movie just opening...
 

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Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
I'm guessing that Topher and Whiskey's original personality knew each other. Or why would he have answered her that way when she asked why he programmed her to hate him?
 

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Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nighthawk:
It's not looking good...

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Well, what did the imbeciles at Fox think would happen with a Friday night time slot?
 

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Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
 
I thought it was a self-loathing thing, with Topher and Whiskey...
 

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Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
 
A glimmer of hope?
 

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Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
ya baby

http://www.thrfeed.com/2009/05/dollhouse-second-season.html

Hope this isn't a lie.
 

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Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
 
Um, got that covered, The Pixiest.
 

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Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
sorry whale, thought yours was the "leaning toward" story that was out earlier...
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
And still no word on Terminator....

If they're renewing dollhouse it feels hypocritical to not renew Terminator - it ended with *slightly* better ratings and has a motion picture to help bring in more. Unless they seriously are just trying to make amends with the Whedonite community.
 

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Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
Dollhouse is much less expensive. That was the selling point. cheap.
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
Ah. I guess I can see that. That definitely was one of Terminator's major issues (especially given the finale's set up for season 3).
 

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Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
Dollhouse is also expected to perform much stronger in DVD sales and tie-in stuff, though how on Earth they calculate that with any degree of certainty I'll never know.
 

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Posted by Marek (Member # 5404) on :
 
I'm thinking they are basing on the DVD sales v. ratings of Firefly, Angel and Buffy. Though that would be a pretty stupid basis, because the shows are way too different, still that is my guess for why they expect such high DVD sales.
 

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Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
 
Terminator already got a second season and ratings still went down, and FOX knows how sales on the 1st season DVD did. It's not the same thing at all.

Presales on the Dollhouse DVD were strong, streaming and DVR numbers were excellent, and when he filmed a 13th episode in a couple of days with half the budget (which will be on the DVD) Joss demonstrated he could make good shows more cheaply. The demo for FOX execs was the 13th ep and Joss' pitch for the different direction of the 2nd season.

Also, while ratings weren't great, they weren't any worse than other FOX shows they've run on Friday nights and since the set's already been built, new shows of Dollhouse would be cheaper than starting a new one fresh (a reduced budget was apparently part of the deal). Positive buzz from the renewal and Joss' fan base may help pump up numbers next year.

Probably didn't hurt that Dollhouse fans helped break the FOX customer service phone bank Friday
 

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Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
 
The Pixiest, you were right. My first link had the story that Fox was leaning towards giving a second season. Now both links (yours and mine) are the same, saying that it had granted a second season.

Sorry for being snippy. Strange shifting URLs.
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 

quote:

---

Terminator already got a second season and ratings still went down, and FOX knows how sales on the 1st season DVD did. It's not the same thing at all.

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quote:

---

Question: With Sarah Connor Chronicles canceled, please tell me there is a possibility of Summer Glau making an appearance on Dollhouse! --Jenn

Ausiello: The noise you're about to hear is the sound of the Whedonverse exploding. Joss confirms to me exclusively that, well, he's one step head of you. "If anybody thinks [bringing Summer onto Dollhouse] hasn't occurred to me already then they have not met me," he says. "I mentioned it to her before [SCC] was canceled. I was like, 'You know, we should get you in the 'house.' But first we have to come up with something that works." And casting her as a doll would not work, insists Whedon. "Summer would be perfect to play an active, but she's done that [type of role] a lot," he says. "I'd rather see her play someone who talks too much. The most fun I have is when I get somebody who's good and comfortable at doing something, and then I make them do something else. Summer said to me, 'I would like to play a normal girl before I die of extreme old age.'"

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quote:

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Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:

This is "Epitaph One." I assume that each season will have its own plot arc, and end with an "Epitaph X" that skips ahead to continue the story of the ending. The last season things will finally sync up and the last Epitaph will presumably resolve everything.

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That's actually a really incredible idea. It'll almost be like a spin-off show within the show. As it is now, does anyone else find it a real downer that we now know that the Dollhouse will inevitably lead to the end of the world?
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
Well, it's not like we didn't already know it was a terrible idea.
 

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Posted by Miro (Member # 1178) on :
 
I fear for Joss Whedon's sanity. And after watching Epitaph One, I fear for my own. Bizarre.
 

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Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
 
Sheesh, if you hadn't been watching all along, last night's episode was extremely confusing. I watched with my sister, who's never seen it, and I spent every commercial break trying to explain why things were happening. (She liked it though!)

However, as someone who has been watching all along, all that business with Whiskey was very very good. I was pleased they gave Topher layers, finally, and that scene between him and Whiskey was amazing.

Also, it really screwed with my head to see Lee doing a British accent and Wesley doing an American one. I was all, snap out of it, guys! Let's be real here. It is very strange to me that those are their actual accents...
 

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Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
 
Fyfe,

I'm in total agreement with everything you said. As somebody who watched the first season, I thought it was probably the best episode yet. They've realized that a main character who changes every week isn't that captivating and they need to make the people who DO have stable personalities more important and more interesting. I cared about Whiskey- something I didn't feel towards any of the characters last season. I hope this is a sign of the tone of the season.

That said, I watched it with somebody who'd never seen any episodes before. They were completely lost and didn't overly enjoy it. So :-/
 

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Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
 
I was just really happy to have Helo and Apollo on my television together again (...without having to put in a DVD).
 

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Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
 
This episode made Topher a real person for me, and not just some despicable cutout from the Xander mold as I'd always dismissed him before. It also showed me that Fran Kranz has real acting talent... it had just been hidden underneath the dorky goofball he's been playing. (or maybe his ability to play the dorky goofball effectively *is* an indication of his talent)

I absolutely loved Amy Acker in this episode as well. She has all the subtlety and grace that Eliza Dushku lacks... I personally think she would've made a much better Echo. As is, she makes a perfect Whiskey, and I'm glad they're giving her more screen time... she deserves it.

Great show overall, I'm starting to really enjoy Dollhouse, instead of feeling somewhat put off by each episode.

(as a BTW, is there only a tiny pool of actors who play sci-fi shows? I'm starting to get de ja vu from all the familiar faces...)
 

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Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
 

quote:

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They've realized that a main character who changes every week isn't that captivating and they need to make the people who DO have stable personalities more important and more interesting.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Carrie:
I was just really happy to have Helo and Apollo on my television together again (...without having to put in a DVD).

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quote:

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I thought the whole point was the Echo has some quality, whether you want to call it character or soul, that persists despite the layers of personality and experience.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Brinestone:
I can't remember . . . Jamie Bamber just gets arrested at the end of the episode, right? How on earth would the Dollhouse allow him to walk away knowing what he knows? Do they just assume no one will believe his story?

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He just assumed she was a crazy person, or had gone crazy under the pressure.
 

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Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
 
I thought the dialogue with Amy Acker and Topher sounded sappy and melodramatic. It could be bad directing. But a girl as pretty as Acker, prancing around half-dressed and flirty, covers all manners of flat writing.
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
Eh, I didn't think it was that bad. Then again, I suppose I might have been a little distracted too.
 

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Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
 
As someone unable to be distracted by half-dressed women, I thought the scene was excellent.
 

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Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
 
Wait, there was dialogue in that scene?
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
I loved the way Whiskey is messing with Topher's head. I thought the bed scene was appropriate for that. More important, though, was the line where Topher suggests she finds out who she really is, and she says she doesn't want to die. This bring to light the morality of creating people, only to eliminate them after using them briefly, when each and every person would choose to continue to live if they knew what "a treatment" really means.
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
It's an interesting flipside to the anti-stem-cell research arguments, which would try to save every cell because it's a biological human. Is it more or less compelling to argue you should be trying to save every imprinted personality?
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
Or even the components of a personality. Does it matter if you have a separate personality if the original people that they were composed of is still active? What happens when there are more than one copy of the same person? Don't they all want to remain alive in one continuous stream of consciousness? etc...
 

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Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Glenn Arnold:
More important, though, was the line where Topher suggests she finds out who she really is, and she says she doesn't want to die. This bring to light the morality of creating people, only to eliminate them after using them briefly, when each and every person would choose to continue to live if they knew what "a treatment" really means.

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I think this scene and particularly that moment was one of the most powerful of the show's run so far. It made Whiskey/Saunders a more interesting character than Echo/Caroline has been for me yet. It rings more true and personable than the big scheme and plot involving the evolving Echo and Ballard. Their motives just seem so painfully idealistic and boring compared to Saunder's self-preservation.

It just makes me all the more upset that Amy Acker is going to be working on another show and likely getting less screen-time on Dollhouse.

Thankfully, it looks like Sierra is sticking around for awhile. I just ADORE her actress. No matter what imprint they give her, she just falls into it so believably. Can't we just get rid of Echo and Ballard and make Sierra and Victor the stars of the show?

Eliza's performance just isn't consistent for me and Ballard annoys me whenever he's on screen. I'm not sure what it is but something about his character/actor/whatever just bothers me. I don't even hate him. I'm just bored by him.
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
This episode was actually the first time I was interested in all the characters. I do think Sierra is a better actress, but I thought Eliza has been doing a better job since the season finale. (I was impressed that I actually noticed subtle differences between her different personalities when she was Omega).

Echo/Ballard aren't interesting enough to carry the entire show, but they are interesting enough to keep the central plot moving forward now that the other characters are becoming more compelling.
 

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Posted by Unmaker (Member # 1641) on :
 
After spending the first season sort of slogging through the episodes, waiting for the Whedon magic, I finally felt that I saw in this one what it is that he is trying to do with the series. As long as he stops treating Echo like she's Buffy, the hero and center of this universe, and continues to explore the other characters on the show, I'll keep tuning in.
 

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Posted by MouetteSheridan (Member # 10098) on :
 
Huh. I've thoroughly enjoyed Eliza/Echo throughout Dollhouse, and think she's only gotten better with each episode. I find the character interesting, and her acting to me has been quite good throughout at showcasing all the different personalities. It surprises me to see several people commenting that she's their least favorite part of the show.

But then, I've had a girl-crush on Dushku since her Faith days, so maybe it isn't that surprising after all.
 

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Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
She's amazing. Hell, she was amazing in True Lies when she was a little kid.
 

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Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
 
Sorta random but...Alexis Denisof IS British, right?

I'm watching the first season of "How I Met Your Mother" and, just like in "Dollhouse," he's speaking with this really weird American accent. Everything I read online says he's an American native but his British accent sounds so believable (if alittle over the top) while his American accent sounds like nothing I've ever heard. During his scene in Dollhouse, it sounded to me like he was slipping between the two.

Am I just not used to hearing it?
 

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Posted by Luet13 (Member # 9274) on :
 
Linky

He was born in the US, but lived in the UK for 13 years. That could explain his odd accent.

On another subject, I'm in the 'unimpressed with Eliza Dushku' camp. She has never done anything for me, including her role as Faith in Buffy and Angel. She just seems like a robot and a very weak actress to me.

I'm definitely enjoying this show for it's un-Eliza merits though. The Whedonness seems to be showing up finally. And like many others here, I could watch Amy Acker read the phone book and be happy.
 

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Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
 
Shanna, watch any interview of him during Buffy or Angel and you'll see his 'real' voice. It freaked me out, because I only knew him with a British accent.
 

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Posted by Magson (Member # 2300) on :
 
So... anyone besides me see last Friday's episode? I thought it was fascinating how they had Topher "change her on a glandular level" via just rewriting her programming.

The final scene between Echo and Ballard was wonderful, methought, especially when he offered that Topher could make her forget, but she refused saying she'd rather be sad than feel nothing at all, in spite of being in the tabula rasa state at the time.

I'm really fascinated to see where this is all going. I'm also wondering who's feeding info to the Senator and how that new story thread will pan out.

It was also nice to see Mellie/November/Madeline. I always really liked her, and I rather enjoyed her scene with Ballard as well, what with her not remembering him in any way and his trying not to slip up that he'd known her as an active.

Good ep!
 

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Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
 
I've been assuming the mole sending info to the senator is Ballard, but it's so obvious that now that you mention it, I realize it's probably not him.

I actually thought Mellie was the weakest part of the episode. I found myself bored watching the parts about her.

I thought Eliza acted the momma-bear instinct quite well. Even if there was indication that she drinks coffee and alcohol while nursing.
 

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Posted by Magson (Member # 2300) on :
 
That was the line from the previous week when the Senator gave his speech: Adelle asked Boyd who he thought was giving out the info, Ballard walks in, and Boyd said "We were just going to talk about you . . . . "

And Ballard denied being the mole, fingering Boyd instead.
 

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Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
 
The only reason I don't think it's Ballard is because it's never the obvious choice with Whedon.

And I miss Amy Acker! I wanted to see her this time around... running around in a nightie, but still...
 

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Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
 
Hm. I'm starting to question whether the Dollhouse has done enough to cover its tracks. I mean, there's bound to be an investigation into the professor's death, and someone was bound to have seen them on their way to his office together.

Plus, Whiskey's out in the world somewhere, angry at the Dollhouse, and they're not even worried about her or looking for her? Doesn't she have a GPS chip too, which they could easily use to retrieve her? Plus, what's she going to do out there? She's a "doctor" with no history and no paperwork to prove her credentials.

And what happens with all the clients whose engagements end in a way they didn't expect (Echo's babydaddy, for one)? Is there some sort of clause that says, "We'll kill you if you say one word about this"? Even if there were, once someone talks, it's a little too late to off them.
 

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Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
 
I think we just saw the beginnings of Epitaph One.

Poor Victor. He really got the short end there. And gee, wasn't it convenient for the story that "Dr. Saunders" authorized removal of his chip when they started his reconstructive work after Alpha's second attack. That whole thing did make me wonder about Whiskey's chip status as well.
 

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Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
 
I haven't seen Epitaph One. Maybe that would help.
 

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Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
 
Probably not, Brinestone. It's set about 10 years in the future.
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
We've been seeing the beginnings of Epitaph One since Grey Hour, but yeah, this was a significant step down the road.
 

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Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Goody Scrivener:
Poor Victor. He really got the short end there. And gee, wasn't it convenient for the story that "Dr. Saunders" authorized removal of his chip when they started his reconstructive work after Alpha's second attack. That whole thing did make me wonder about Whiskey's chip status as well.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Vadon:
yesterday's episode was glory on a silver plate.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
What exactly is sweeps?

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quote:

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Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:

quote:

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Originally posted by Vadon:
yesterday's episode was glory on a silver plate.

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I don't think that it's a coincidence that there wasn't much of Echo in this episode.

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quote:

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Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
I don't think that it's a coincidence that there wasn't much of Echo in this episode.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dogbreath]
Whenever I criticize the choice of making Eliza Dushku the lead character, people inevitably defend her by saying she's a competent actress... and that's really the whole problem. She's a decent, well experienced actress usually capable of giving a good performance... and she's surrounded by a cast profoundly talented actors, most of whom could act the pants off of her. I would have absolutely no issue with her as a side character, or even as one of the main characters in an ensemble cast. But Whedon has relentlessly insisted in making the entire show revolve around her character, to the point where the opening credits don't even show any other actor. And that's destroying the show.[/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Shigosei:
It's too bad, given that Dollhouse was supposed to show off her acting range.

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quote:

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I really wish we could see what Dollhouse would have been like with Dichen Lachman (Sierra) in the starring role instead of Eliza Dushku.

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quote:

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Now that I've seen Faith, it seems to me that the characters she plays mostly all have the same tough girl personality

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quote:

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Whenever I criticize the choice of making Eliza Dushku the lead character, people inevitably defend her by saying she's a competent actress... and that's really the whole problem. She's a decent, well experienced actress usually capable of giving a good performance... and she's surrounded by a cast profoundly talented actors, most of whom could act the pants off of her. I would have absolutely no issue with her as a side character, or even as one of the main characters in an ensemble cast. But Whedon has relentlessly insisted in making the entire show revolve around her character, to the point where the opening credits don't even show any other actor. And that's destroying the show.

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quote:

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Of all the shows that needed to be a pure ensemble, with no 'main character', this premise was it.

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quote:

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I think it would have helped the audience to warm up to Echo if the base personality of Caroline had been at all likeable and interesting.

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quote:

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It's unlikely to survive, as the ratings are even worse than the Sarah Connor Chronicles last summer, and we know what happened there.

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quote:

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Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
I would have loved to see what Dollhouse would have been without Fox demanding that all of the dolls be young and hot.

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One gets the impression from this show that Joss Whedon has a very narrow criterion for what constitutes an attractive woman. Literally every single female on the show has more or less the same appearance: tall, dark complexion, long straight hair, very long and oval shaped face. It's very depressing if you're like me and aren't attracted to that physique. The only women I found at all attractive on the show were Sierra and Dewitt, and Olivia Williams is over twice my age!

It would've been nice if they had just added a bit more variety. A fair skinned freckly redhead, or a buxom blond, or (god forbid!) a black woman or two would've made it a bit more interesting... the uniformity of appearance just added to the blandness. As is, I can't look at Eliza Dushku without thinking of a St. Bernard. I know her heavy lidded, slack jawed look is supposed to be mysterious and seductive, but it just reminds me of a big slobbering dog.

And it's made all the worse by the fact that the show sports beautiful men of all shapes and colors for the ladies! IMO it's unfortunate that tv shows now are willing to take male black protagonists seriously, but you almost never see a black female in a leading role. (and it'd be especially logical for the Dollhouse... what are you going to do when your clientele want something a little darker than the standard selection?)
 

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Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
 
Saw last week's episode yesterday on Hulu... It was brilliant! Sierra (I can't spell her real name) is truly amazing.

This is one of only three shows I watch regularly... and all three are at risk of cancellation. I'm cursed, I tell you!
 

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Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
 
You should charge money to *not* watch shows that people like!
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

quote:

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Literally every single female on the show has more or less the same appearance

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They've got, presumably, at least 26 Dolls - there should be some serious variation.

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25, I would imagine. I would seriously doubt they'd have another one named "Alpha"...
 

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Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
November doesn't fit the same mold, and she's as beautiful as anybody on the show.

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One question though.. In Epitaph One the ending sequence confused me. The characters climb up a ladder towards the top of the building they are in. Why? I fail to see how that is going to help them get to safety. Is there a helicopter up there? Is it just symbolism? Are there walkways that connect the buildings?

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quote:

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Its a real shame that a show like this doesn't get a better time slot or the viewership it deserves, but because of the way the first half of the first season played out many people have already been turned off by it. The same thing happened with Terminator SCC.

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quote:

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n Epitaph One the ending sequence confused me. The characters climb up a ladder towards the top of the building they are in. Why? I fail to see how that is going to help them get to safety. Is there a helicopter up there? Is it just symbolism?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Geraine:



Its a real shame that a show like this doesn't get a better time slot or the viewership it deserves, but because of the way the first half of the first season played out many people have already been turned off by it. The same thing happened with Terminator SCC. Fringe was in danger of this but they came back strong for the second half of the season.

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And a better lead in show.
 

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Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
 
I agree, all actors in Fringe > Eliza Dushku

Nobody beats Walter...Nobody.
 

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Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
 
Dollhouse won't be airing in November

Oy!

And the last episode was excellent.
 

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Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
 
It says it will return after sweeps......

Anyone want to wager it just won't return?

On a side note, NBC is thinking about bringing Chuck back early, and the only timeslot available right now is on Friday night, the same hour Dollhouse is on.

I love Dollhouse but I do love me some Chuck.
 

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Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
It will return.
 

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Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
 
It will return, but they're going to burn it until the end of the season: two episodes a day, back to back.
 

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Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
 
It is cancelled
 

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Posted by daventor (Member # 11981) on :
 
I just read the news. It sucks, but I really can't blame Fox on this one (still bitter at whoever was responsible for Firefly getting canned, though). They gave it a second season, but the numbers just were not good at all. As much as I enjoyed what I saw of it, there was never a large enough audience. It's business.
That said, I hope whatever the next big project is for Joss, I hope it's not with Fox. He needs to go Cable, I think.

On the bright side, Joss can get working full-time on Dr. Horrible 2 now.
 

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Posted by Clive Candy (Member # 11977) on :
 
Right now they're finishing episode 11. That means episodes 12 and 13 will be made with the knowledge that they'll be the end of the series. Whedon better make them epic.
 

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Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
We can blame Fox for sticking it on Friday.
 

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Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by kmbboots:
We can blame Fox for sticking it on Friday.

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quote:

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Well, the first 5 of the first season was really Fox's fault

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The show is okay if you look past the central concept and ignore more than half the episodes?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dogbreath:
I thought Buffy season 1 was hilarious. But then, I was genuinely convinced that it was meant to be a deliberately campy comedy, making fun of the horror genre.

Season 2 took me by surprise.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Clive Candy:
Whedon interview.

Sexuality in network television is always almost ways childish.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Clive Candy:
It's that Burke guy who's the sleeper.

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Posted by Clive Candy (Member # 11977) on :
 
A comment on the website tvbythenumbers:

quote:

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Whedon may not be in denial about the ratings (I doubt even Glenn Beck could muster that level of denial), but he’s still in denial over the show itself. It wasn’t always awful, but it was never very good. And it wasn’t just FOX that had a problem with the ‘cuddly whoremongers’ angle–his own diehard fanbase frequently had problems with it as well. Even on Whedonesque, a lot of people have been quietly rooting for Dollhouse to end, so Joss can get back to the kind of show they want from him.

If he wanted to do a really edgy show with lots of sex, why was he on FOX at all? They titillate, sure–that’s not the same thing as following through. They looked at what he gave them, and they knew they had a ratings loser–that’s why they backed away, but they still gave him plenty of time, and lots of promotion.

It was a concept very poorly suited to a network primetime show, and frankly, I doubt Whedon’s take on it would have worked on HBO or Showtime.

No excuses–nobody forced him at gunpoint to pitch this concept to FOX, or to pitch it to anybody. He wanted to do a new show, he had a relationship with FOX and with Dushku, and Dushku had a development contract with FOX. He went there because he knew he could sell it there. He isn’t a very adventurous showrunner, when you get right down to it–he works with 20th or Universal, because he’s got friends at both studios. He can’t work without a cheering section. And that limits him horribly.

His approach to the most unconventional subjects is always very conventional and TeeVee101. He makes good use of old cliches, at the very best of times. His characters are always CHARACTERS–they never feel like real people, and they speak a slightly elevated dialect of sitcom-ese, all wisecracks and one-liners.

Firefly was a WORSE show, IMO. Dollhouse at least tried something different. But the fact that he wanted to get basically legitimize prostitution in both shows is–well–kinda creepy. Yes, he’s saying, the Dollhouse is wrong, but it COULD be made right. No it couldn’t, Joss. And you way miscalculated when you tried to make us like these scummy people who belong in jail. David Chase managed that trick, sure–but he never tried to sugarcoat what his gangsters really were, and he showed them warts and all. Nobody on your shows is allowed so much as a pimple.

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I liked this last episode, though perhaps not as much as some others. Summer Glau's character is quite creepy. [/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Clive Candy:
And oh yea, Enver Gjokaj is the most talented actor on the show.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lisa:

quote:

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Originally posted by Clive Candy:
And oh yea, Enver Gjokaj is the most talented actor on the show.

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God, yes. He was so absolutely Topher.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jon Boy:
Yeah, same here. I think he might even be worse than Eliza Dushku.

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In my original post on Dollhouse, I praised it for its use of the “false consciousness” metaphor. What I did not mention is that “false consciousness,” as an actual political theory, often drives me a wee bit insane! The idea that there is some true, pure self, untouched and unconstructed by the Patriarchy, which you can have access to by reading the right books or attending the right classes or being subjected to enough terrifyingly condescending consciousness-raising and/or personal judgment by ladies who Know What’s Good For You (I’m just gonna call them Ballardettes. That cool?) is incredibly naive and incomplete: it ignores the fact that we are all informed by cultural context from day one, and will be for the rest of our lives. Dollhouse is, undeniably, a story about the journey from lack of agency (being so totally shaped by the cultural context that you have no power to resist it) to agency (defining who you are on your own terms). But it’s not about going back to who you were before culture. It’s not about being outside of culture. There is no outside, there is no before. Caroline doesn’t live here any more.

But Echo does. She’s gaining agency, even within the context of the Dollhouse: she remembers everything, she “is many people” – but, she says, “none of them are me.” She isn’t regaining her “true” self; she’s creating a new self, out of all the roles she’s ever had. And this is a far better metaphor for “false consciousness” than just becoming Caroline again. There is no false consciousness, only incomplete consciousness. You don’t get to escape into some realm of culture-free authenticity in order to claim your own power. You claim it starting right now, right here. From where and who you already are.

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Well, cloning technology would still take X number of years to grow an active while human slavery is relatively easy (as in there is still a lot of human trafficking going on in the world and for relatively cheap).

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mucus:
Well, cloning technology would still take X number of years to grow an active while human slavery is relatively easy (as in there is still a lot of human trafficking going on in the world and for relatively cheap).

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About 50,000 Asian, Latin American and Eastern European women and children are trafficked into the United States for sexual exploitation, the going rate between $12,000 and $18,000 each.

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In fact, I think I've seen lower in other places in the world. I'm just not seeing the benefit from a corporate POV.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Alcon:

quote:

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In fact, I think I've seen lower in other places in the world. I'm just not seeing the benefit from a corporate POV.

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Infinite and customizable supply. As many Echo's and Whiskey's as needed. And when the bodies get too battered, just clone up another.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mucus:
Geraine:
My point isn't that what the Dollhouse is doing is human trafficking* (or that it is not). My point is merely that if cost or limited supply was actually an important factor in obtaining new actives, they could very easily increase their supply of actives by an incredible (and cheap) rate by simply tapping into the pre-existing supply of human trafficking.

* Although I would note in your line of argument unrelated to mine that technically some of these people do not in fact know what they're getting into, Sierra is the obvious example.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Geraine:

As for cloning Whiskeys? I'd order three.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sala:
I wonder if it would have been as astounding to me if I had seen it first, based on comments here.

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[SPOILER]


Epitaph 1 is set in Arcane's vision of the future. It helps give you a little background to what's going on, but there's nothing essential to the plot you're missing.

Also, the idea of the "Attic", people being used for their processing power as chips in a supercomputer, was the original idea behind the Matrix. Each person connected to the Matrix was, in fact, part of the Matrix. They dropped that in favor of the idiotic "people are fuel" idea, because they thought the average person would be too stupid to understand it.
 

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Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
If Victor was transfered to the LA Dollhouse (as Adelle told Boyd), why was Topher the one to put him under? Unless Adelle lied to Boyd about that, which I guess is possible.

Gah! I guess knowing that you have to get to an endpoint can really help a show. I liked it before. I love it now.
 

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Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
 
I think it means he was recruited at another house, and then sent to LA for processing.
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
Random musings:

While Dollhouse is wrapping up, I'm also watching Battlestar Galactica on DVD. I just watched the episode in which Helo accuses a doctor of mistreating Geminons, and there's a scene where Helo is telling Sharon that he is always on the wrong side, yet he winds up being right.

It seems to me that Tahmoh Penikett is being typecast as a Cassandra character. Given the nature of Dollhouse, I'm curious how much attention Whedon is paying to how much range each actor is expected to stretch. I think we all agree that Dushku's range is quite limited, but we haven't seen Topher display much range, nor Boyd, even Adelle (although her character is much more well developed, it's still always her).

In discussion tonight, it also occurred to me that Echo actually should always seem to be the same character, since she has the ability to hold onto herself between wipes. I don't think Whedon planned it that way, but...

I also want to see what Enver Gjokaj has lined up after Dollhouse ends. I have little doubt that he will have a long and successful career a-la Meryl Streep unless he goes Heath Ledger... Don't want to think about it, but I did anyway.

As for the whole cloning argument, it's a moot point. Whedon wanted to explore self-ness and consent, and this is the way he chose to do it. So in this world, cloning isn't an issue.

And also: When Alpha speaks to Echo in Ballard's voice; There is no question in my mind that Alan Tudyk was lip syncing.
 

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Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
 
Enver is starring alongside Robert De Niro, Edward Norton and Milla Jovovich in Stone (he's a young De Niro).

It's not a bad start, I guess.
 

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Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
 
Just saw the last five episodes back to back last night on Hulu.

Uh... Wow. I think Joss might be making super good on purpose because it's getting canceled, just to make the studio look stupid.

And Victor as Topher was awesome beyond description!
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
Man, too bad he didn't try just doing that a year ago.
 

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Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
 
I feel like throughout the first series, the show was trying to save some awesome for later, and I think it was a mistake. Of course I've only got all invested after it gets canceled.
 

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Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
 
This show is awesome, its like all of the story telling pros of certain grimdark anime's, character development, plot, overarcing themes, complex characters!

And of course While getting 2 seasons is not getting a third because Fox is staffed by retarded people who can talk.

So great but gone so soon!
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

quote:

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Fox is staffed by retarded people who can talk.

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quote:

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In other news, why does this show have to go and be all compelling now that it's been cancelled?

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Perhaps it's because it's canceled -- there's no time for fluff or filler episodes.
 

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Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
 
Point.

Ah well, at least it should end strong. *crosses fingers*
 

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Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
oooo...twisty.
 

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Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
 
Curse you, stupid Wikipedia episode list!
 

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Posted by Magson (Member # 2300) on :
 
*blinks*

Wow. Didn't see *that* one coming.

Edit to add: I googled the word "Rossum" as being part of a play as stated by Clyde 2.0 or 5.0 or whatever and came up with Rossum's Universal Robots. Eerie similarities to the whole story arc the show has taken.

Edit again -- linkie code won't work becuz it wants a parenthesis, so... It's at wikipedia.....

[ January 09, 2010, 01:44 AM: Message edited by: Magson ]
 

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Posted by Sala (Member # 8980) on :
 
Whohoohoo! THAT was one interesting episode.
 

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Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
 
Hoe. Lee. Crud. My jaw is in my lap right now.
 

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Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
 
Was "Clyde" Topher? He had a lot of the same mannerisms.
 

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Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
 
------- SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS ---------
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Okay, I immediately began concocting different perspectives on the plot wherein Boyd is still on the side of good and not in fact evil. Perspectives such as he actually lost control of Rossum long ago, after realizing what his previous actions were going to lead to and is now fighting to undo the harm he has done. Or something along those lines. I simply refuse to believe that he's actually the evil head of Rossom. Or rather that he is still the evil head of Rossom.

---------END SPOILERS
 

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Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Brinestone:
Was "Clyde" Topher? He had a lot of the same mannerisms.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Magson:
*blinks*

Wow. Didn't see *that* one coming.

Edit to add: I googled the word "Rossum" as being part of a play as stated by Clyde 2.0 or 5.0 or whatever and came up with Rossum's Universal Robots. Eerie similarities to the whole story arc the show has taken.

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quote:

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The man who shot Mal Reynolds in the gut came back to kick us in the teeth, with Friday's episode of Dollhouse. Tim Minear's brilliant episode left us with tons of questions, and luckily he was willing to answer them.

How long ago did you guys decide that Boyd Langton was going to be the mastermind behind Rossum? Was this a recent decision, or something planned since the beginning?

It was decided upon early in the forming of the stories this season.

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quote:

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The trickiest of the flash forwards was the Saunders/Boyd-on-the-run scene — because we weren't thinking "Boyd is going to be Rossum" at that point. Mostly, we were thinking "nothing matters — we're cancelled." Whoops. So simply putting that scene in and trying to craft scenes around it seemed the best way to tackle that element.

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http://io9.com/5444956/the-truth-about-dollhouses-evil-mastermind

Shades of Babylon 4
 

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Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Mucus:
http://io9.com/5444956/the-truth-about-dollhouses-evil-mastermind

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"And I shot Bennett in the head because it's funny."
 

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Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
 
I can't decide if Tim Minear is the Darth Vader to Joss Whedon's Anakin or the Darth Vader to Joss Whedon's Palpatine.
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
I just wrote an article for the GeekaChicas website, if anyone's interested. Dollhouse: Did I Fall Asleep?

I was not a Dollhouse early-adopter -- I watched it, but mostly with one foot out the door.

That show really tried to tackle some interesting and disturbing subject matter.

Now I'm sad to see it go.
 

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Posted by TheGrimace (Member # 9178) on :
 
excellent article. thanks for linking it.
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
Thank you, Grimace! Someone linked to it on Whedonesque, and it has now become the article with the highest hit-count GeekaChicas has ever had, which really blows my mind.

I wish there was more Dollhouse to come. There's what, one more episode?

It has insured that I'll watch anything Whedon writes, though. They could televise his shopping list and I'll be there.
 

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Posted by TheGrimace (Member # 9178) on :
 
too true, too true... but to be fair, he'd have you guessing to the last second whether those cucumbers were the villains, or if it was really the captain crunch all along. And lord help you if you grow attached to the soup, because the second you do, it's going to get dropped and you'll only have its spilt remains left to cry over.

and now I think I've taken the "Joss writing his shopping list" analogy waaaaay too far.
 

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Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by TheGrimace:
too true, too true... but to be fair, he'd have you guessing to the last second whether those cucumbers were the villains, or if it was really the captain crunch all along.

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quote:

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It may have started shaky, but it has come around to the point that the next time Whedon has a new show - no matter how off-putting the premise - I'll be right there to lap it up. Again.

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quote:

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Breakfast of the Gods.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sala:
Ahhh, another great episode. I'm beginning to think that more tv should be structured like this one: instead of delivering a ten-volume book series that gets lost along the way (multi-year series), it should be more like a short story . . . a limited run (two years) with no wasted time on extraneous stuff. Just go for the gusto all the way, like Dollhouse has been doing for the past six or so episodes. Makes for great television.

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I think the best approach is something like Dexter, wherein each season is a largely self contained very long movie. Granted, this is my favorite approach for STORYTELLING, which isn't the same thing as being financially viable. (Dexter seems to be doing well for itself but I think that's a combination of factors beyond the story arc techniques.)

In Dollhouse's case, Whedon's mentioned that he didn't get to do as many "romance engagement" episodes as he would have liked, which would have been largely standalone and dealt specifically with the kinds of things people would want from the Dollhouse. The problem is those episodes would have been a hard sell. period unless the opening season had somehow had a more interesting main character for us to root for prior to Echo's full manifestation.
 

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Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
 
Posted my thoughts on it here. Short version: "Meh."

I can excuse all the rushed details and low budget shortcuts, but the utter lack of any sort of Caroline/Echo resolution really bothered me. Echo (possibly) sacrificed herself to bring back Caroline. What happened? Who's in charge? Are they both in there now? What the hell?

Since Echo's sense of identity was the focal point of the whole freaking series, I kinda expected a little more, there.
 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
Good article, Chris. I felt disappointed, too, and I think you touched on all the reasons why. It's not that it was bad, but it certainly was a letdown from the expectations that had been built up.
 

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Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
 
I don't buy it. I feel like they went for Boyd as the leader of Rossum because he was the last person we'd expect. Pure shock value. They didn't make it the least bit convincing though. Everything Boyd has been up until now does not even remotely match what he became this episode. It didn't fly. He was like a child in this episode. In every other he's been the most mature, intelligent, perceptive... it just didn't work.
 

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Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
 
It also seems like a pretty crappy plan considering the sheer resources he has at his disposal.

But I give it a pass since the whole season was really rushed, surpassing the plot-crunch at the end of both Babylon 5's fourth season and Jeremiah in terms of crunchiness.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
I call BS. If they weren't cancelled and trying end on something interesting, Boyd would never have been Mr. Rossum. There's no way that that's what they were aiming for from the beginning.
 

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Posted by Clive Candy (Member # 11977) on :
 
What an awful show.
 

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Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
 
I offer the new Joss Whedon version of the nuked fridge to jumped shark: The Rossum revealed Boyd.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Can a show really jump the shark in its penultimate episode? How much of a shark could there be at that point?
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
My feeling is that Boyd COULD have been a convincing head of Rossum if they had put more effort into it. I could have bought something like realizing how out of control it had gotten and genuinely trying to fix it, or having an even bigger, badder company out there they actually needed all this military-grade neurotech to fight against.

I actually spent all of Season 1 (and some of 2) wondering what secret backstory they could possibly have for Boyd that would live up to all the secrecy about his origin story. Everything I could think of wasn't extreme enough to justify hiding it so long. The interview made it clear that they didn't know who he was until the beginning of this season, which is somewhat disappointing, but it is pretty much the only resolution I can think of that lived up to the hype.
 

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Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
 
It really needed 5 seasons
 

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Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
Without knowing what the original plan was, I honestly think 3 would have been fine. (Maybe with full 20 episode seasons, giving us some time to see Echo go on normal engagements with full command of her abilities). Although if they were intending to introduce a rival to Rossum that started the Thought-pocalyptic war, another season to show that in all its detail could have been useful.
 

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Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
 


That was terrible.

What the hell?

There where shiny moments, but they shined through a layer of crap. Very disappointing.

There was so much more that should have been done with Whiskey, Boyd, Mellie, Adelle, Victor and Sierra, basically everyone. I'm sure Epitaph Two will be good, but I am not happy.
 

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Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
 
Okay anyone else here thought Boyds plan kinda made sense?
 

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Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
 
No
 

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Posted by Dobbie (Member # 3881) on :
 
No.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

quote:

---

The interview made it clear that they didn't know who he was until the beginning of this season, which is somewhat disappointing, but it is pretty much the only resolution I can think of that lived up to the hype.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
It really needed 5 seasons

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quote:

---

It also needed a better premise and better episodes and better acting and better everything.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clive Candy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
It really needed 5 seasons

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It also needed a better premise and better episodes and better acting and better everything.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
Except the rest of us loved the morally compromised characters, loved the premise, the loved most of this season.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Lisa:
So did this ep take place after Epitaph One?

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quote:

---

But, knowing about the Epitaphs, I guess this is sort of implied.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Mucus:
Soul? Does not compute.

Anyways, given that both Clyde and Ambrose have backups, it is almost certain that Boyd will have backups as well, so it is far from guaranteed.

---

quote:

---

You know what I mean by soul in this case.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clive Candy:
I enjoyed aspects of the show, but the thing was a mess from the start. It didn't appear that Whedon and Dushku thought long and hard about the premise -- I remember when they announced the show and Whedon pretty much said the idea occurred to him when out on a lunch with Dushku and the show was greenlit right after that. Then we heard about there being production trouble and episodes having to be rewritten. It seemed that Whedon and his writers just came to realize how rotten the premise was.

The way every character in this show was morally compromised, the way episodes would tend to hinge on Topher's techno babble (there's nothing involving Doll technology that he couldn't do), the "hooker of the week" eps, the "evil" of the faceless, omnipresent "Rossum" corporation being painfully cartoony, and so on...it just all added up to meh.


Tim Minear wrote this last episode. He's a good writer. But he couldn't do much with this messy material.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:

quote:

---

You know what I mean by soul in this case.

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I don't.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Lisa:
You know what I mean by soul in this case.

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quote:

---

And would it have occurred to Echo that Boyd would have a backup?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
This is more or less crap, why didn't they think long on the premise? What is your reasoning to think so? Whats wrong with it being thought of during lunch? Many epithanies occur when on the john.

Production trouble and episodes being rewriting somehow make it a bad show? Whats wrong with you? They just can't win, to me rewriting episodes shows dedication and the willingness not to settle for crappy episodes followed by you jumping to your most obvious predetermined conclusion. [/QB]

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I agree with you Blayne. Rewriting the episodes was almost required of Wheedon and his group because the show was canned. It is providing closure to the storyline, unlike what happened to Terminator: TSCC.

I think the premise was interesting. I am happy with the direction the writers took the show.

It is "Epiphanies" though, not "epithanies."
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

quote:

---

For example Babylon 5 certainly has something like a soul. But I don't see how a soul fits in the Dollhouse universe.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lisa:

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:

quote:

---

You know what I mean by soul in this case.

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I don't.

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I explained it in the two short sentences following the one you quoted. You know, the ones you snipped?

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quote:

---

As far as I'm concerned, the Trek-soul-katra thing treated the soul as
little more than a misplaced pair of sunglasses. Here we tried to get into
the issues *behind* the soul...where does it come from, where does it go, does
it survive the death of the body, or does it go on...to give some mystery and
beauty to the notion

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