So i decided the time has come for me to get into the fantasy-verse.
I've had a couple of false starts:
Robert Jordan's wheel of time - The concepts are awesome. I like my share of magic and fighting, but it's too darn long for me to enjoy.
David Gemmel:
Sipstrassi stone series was aright - not enough magic and not enough meaning.
Rigante Series - had more meaning, and I did enjoy, but it isn't memorable. And not enough magic and hack n'slash either.
Robin Hobb:
Ship of Magic - very very cool, but similar problem to Robert Jordan in that it takes too much time to be cool.
Assassin series - Waaaay too much pain. I had to put the third book down because I could no longer stomach it.
Does anyone have any recommendations for a good fantasy author/series that is really fun? Magic used not too rarely, and perhaps a bit of depth?
I don't mind popular authors - the basics are fine, treat me as a total ignoramus.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
The Long Price Quartet is new (book 4 should be soon to be released in hardback -- the other three are available in paperback) fantasy series by a new author, Daniel Abraham.
No magic, but much depth. It's really good.
Posted by Darth_Mauve (Member # 4709) on :
I have enjoyed the "Belgariad" by David Eddings. I know that some here find it too talky and a bit light.
"The Magician Apprentice" is the start of a fairly good series that pits Eastern fantasy against Western. However it starts running on long and long as the books get old.
However, when the author writes with his daughter the "Daughter of the Empire" trilogy, set in those Eastern lands, it is very good.
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
The Vlad Taltos books by Steven Brust. I'd suggest sticking with the published date books start with Jhereg) for at least the first couple. Above all, the series is really, really fun.
I can write more, if you like, or you can read all the amazon reviews.
Posted by EmpSquared (Member # 10890) on :
Are you talking about magic in an action sense, or do you prefer a world where magic seems to be infused in everything?
I want to recommend A Song of Ice and Fire, but there really isn't too much in the way of magic. Sir Apropos of Nothing is fun, but might stray too far towards parody.
Is magic really a dealbreaker? Maybe you should pick up A Game of Thrones and give it a try.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Darth_Mauve: I have enjoyed the "Belgariad" by David Eddings. I know that some here find it too talky and a bit light.
"The Magician Apprentice" is the start of a fairly good series that pits Eastern fantasy against Western. However it starts running on long and long as the books get old.
However, when the author writes with his daughter the "Daughter of the Empire" trilogy, set in those Eastern lands, it is very good.
Really? Janny Wurts is Raymond Feist's daughter? I had no idea.
I second the Belgariad and the Riftwar Saga (and Daughter of the Empire). You might also check out A Man of His Word, by Dave Duncan. It's a four book series that's great. And if you like it, there's a sequel (also four books) called "A Handful of Men". Duncan also has a wonderful trilogy called The Seventh Sword (or the Sword of Destiny).
There are two things by Stephen R. Donaldson that I'd recommend as well. The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever is phenomenal. I first read it as a teenager and I credit it with my survival. That's a trilogy, with a sequel trilogy (and two books of the final quadrilogy out). He also has a two book thing called Mordant's Need. It's gentler than the Covenant books, but at least as good.
The Secret Country trilogy by Pamela Dean is one of my favorite reads ever. And she did a novel called Tam-Lin as well, which is a standalone, and terrific.
Another single book is Ariel, by Steven Boyett. It's wonderful and beautiful.
And I'm going to put in a word for Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth series, but it's 11 books and a novella, so that might be too long for you.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
Joe Abercrombie
Scott Lynch
Two authors I have been enjoying recently. Also Patrick Rothfuss, although he's a bit like Robin Hobb.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jhai: The Vlad Taltos books by Steven Brust. I'd suggest sticking with the published date books start with Jhereg) for at least the first couple. Above all, the series is really, really fun.
I can write more, if you like, or you can read all the amazon reviews.
Brust also wrote To Reign in Hell, which is a novelized version of Milton's Paradise Lost. It's wicked cool.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Darth_Mauve: However, when the author writes with his daughter the "Daughter of the Empire" trilogy, set in those Eastern lands, it is very good.
Do you have any source for Feist being the father of Janny Wurts? I just checked Wikipedia (granted, not the last word on anything), and I don't see anything to back that up.
Posted by Armoth (Member # 4752) on :
quote:Originally posted by EmpSquared: Are you talking about magic in an action sense, or do you prefer a world where magic seems to be infused in everything?
I want to recommend A Song of Ice and Fire, but there really isn't too much in the way of magic. Sir Apropos of Nothing is fun, but might stray too far towards parody.
Is magic really a dealbreaker? Maybe you should pick up A Game of Thrones and give it a try.
I don't care either way. Fun magic or symbolic magic - either way, something where it get's used.
These suggestions are great. Thanks so much everyone! Maybe I'll report back when I read a bunch.
Posted by Armoth (Member # 4752) on :
Also, length isn't a problem. BORING length is...
Posted by natural_mystic (Member # 11760) on :
I agree with Joe Abercrombie and Scott Lynch. I would say that the former is even more fun if you have read a lot of fantasy because its set up is very conventional, but then how it plays out is not.
I rate the Prince of Nothing trilogy, but doubt that 'fun' is the appropriate adjective.
[ January 05, 2009, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: natural_mystic ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
My favorite adult fantasies:
Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell The Alvin Maker Cycle The Prince of Nothing The Long Price Quartet The Iron Dragon's Daughter Perdido Street Station A Song of Ice and Fire Lord of the Rings The Earthsea Cycle The Khaavren Romances The Taltos Cycle Dune The Dark Tower Discworld The Gentlemen Bastards Sequence Sandman Fables
My favorite juveniles: The Belgariad The Malloreon The Chronicles of Prydain The Chronicles of Narnia The Dark is Rising A Wrinkle in Time Farmer Giles of Ham and Other Stories A Man of His Word The King's Blades Harry Potter and His Many Books Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
I just finished the Mistborn trilogy, by Brandon Sanderson, about a month ago, and I thought it was very good. The magic is absolutely integral to the lives of the characters that have the ability to use it. I felt that the second book dragged a bit, since there was quite a lot of maneuvering to get the storyline ready for the third book, but the ending of the second book made it worthwhile and the third book was very, very good.
I also thoroughly enjoyed Kate Elliot's Crown of Stars series, although it does have seven very long books. Most of the characters can't actually wield magic, but it permeates the whole world.
--Mel
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
Enchantment, by our Very Own.
Harry Potter. 'Nuff said.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: My favorite juveniles: The Belgariad The Malloreon A Man of His Word
"Juveniles"?
Posted by Darth_Mauve (Member # 4709) on :
Sorry about the Wurts connection to Feist. For some reason I thought they were related, but my memory is far from perfect.
If you want some modern Fantasy I suggest Fairy Tale by Feist. Heavy on magic and about the best elves I've seen.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
You wouldn't consider those juvenalia, Lisa?
Posted by Armoth (Member # 4752) on :
Oh man, i dunno if i made my problem worse. Where will I start?
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: You wouldn't consider those juvenalia, Lisa?
Not really. I mean, The Secret Country would be juvenile, but I don't see how A Man of His Word is. There's a lot of adult content in it. There's torture and sex.
I suppose you could make a case for Eddings... though there's some sexual content there as well. Do you see them as juveniles because Garion is a kid in the Belgariad? Would the Riftwar Saga be juvenile as well because Pug and Tomas are kids at least through the first book?
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Armoth: Oh man, i dunno if i made my problem worse. Where will I start?
Make a list, go to the library, see what they have.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I suppose you could make a case for Eddings... though there's some sexual content there as well.
I don't consider everything with a hint of sexual content in it to be "adult."
Posted by Armoth (Member # 4752) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:Originally posted by Armoth: Oh man, i dunno if i made my problem worse. Where will I start?
Make a list, go to the library, see what they have.
Library? What's THAT?
Posted by CaySedai (Member # 6459) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:Originally posted by Darth_Mauve: However, when the author writes with his daughter the "Daughter of the Empire" trilogy, set in those Eastern lands, it is very good.
Do you have any source for Feist being the father of Janny Wurts? I just checked Wikipedia (granted, not the last word on anything), and I don't see anything to back that up.
Janny Wurts' website has a picture of her. She looks too old to be Raymond Feist's daughter (he was born in 1945, according to wikipedia). She's married to Don Maitz, and his website says his artistic career has spanned 30 years. Maitz and Wurts live in Florida, the wikipedia article says that Feist lives in San Diego with his children.
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
Memory Sorrow and Thorn by Tad Williams, though that can be hard to get into as he sets up his world for the first ~150 pages in Dragonbone Chair. Otherwise an excellent series, with a magical world that isn't overly magical.
I also recommend Belgariad and Mallorean. I find them to be quick, entertaining reads. David Eddings' series The Elenian is a bit darker if you like things that way.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
*thumps forehead* Okay, since Memory, Sorrow and Thorn is on my list of top five fantasy series, I have no idea how it didn't make the list above. *laugh*
That, by the way, is why I hate making best-of lists; I'm always gripped by fear that I'm going to miss some obvious thing that makes me appear to be a Philistine. Posted by Trent Destian (Member # 11653) on :
The Obsidian Chronicles, by: Lawrence Watt-Evans -If you like those give some of his other work a go, he's a great fantasy writer.
Codex of Alera, by: Jim Butcher -Read them...now.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
Wow, Trent, I've never met anyone else who's read Lawrence Watt-Evans. I actually like him quite a lot and I make a habit of looking for him in used book stores, because most of his writing is out of print. I was delighted to find two new ones this week (The Cyborg and the Sorcerers and its sequel).
Anyway, I'll add to the list "The Hero and the Crown" and "The Blue Sword" by Robin McKinley. I adore those books and they were the gateway drug on my long slide into fantasy lit addiction.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: My favorite adult fantasies:
Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell The Alvin Maker Cycle The Prince of Nothing The Long Price Quartet The Iron Dragon's Daughter Perdido Street Station A Song of Ice and Fire Lord of the Rings The Earthsea Cycle The Khaavren Romances The Taltos Cycle Dune The Dark Tower Discworld The Gentlemen Bastards Sequence Sandman Fables
My favorite juveniles: The Belgariad The Malloreon The Chronicles of Prydain The Chronicles of Narnia The Dark is Rising A Wrinkle in Time Farmer Giles of Ham and Other Stories A Man of His Word The King's Blades Harry Potter and His Many Books
Tom, I hate you! You took most of my recommendations, even the YA books that no one usually mentions.
Honestly, reading your list was a best hit's list of my own bookcases. I have one bookcase just for my favorites, and almost every one of those books are on those shelves.
I'd also recommend The Curse of Chalion and The Paladin of Souls by Bujold. I love that series, and really most of her stuff is good....but those two are among the best I have ever read. I am reading her The Sharing Knife series about Lakewalkers now and love it, the first books is called The Sharing Knife: Beguilement.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
My latest fantasy series is the Codex Alera by Butcher. I'm actually quite fond of it.
Posted by natural_mystic (Member # 11760) on :
quote:Originally posted by Armoth: Also, length isn't a problem.
In that case, you should also look at Steven Erikson.
Posted by Trent Destian (Member # 11653) on :
quote:Originally posted by Eaquae Legit: Wow, Trent, I've never met anyone else who's read Lawrence Watt-Evans. I actually like him quite a lot and I make a habit of looking for him in used book stores, because most of his writing is out of print. I was delighted to find two new ones this week (The Cyborg and the Sorcerers and its sequel).
Yeah, I also have a nice big used book store that I fish around in every once and awhile to find a new old Watt-Evans. It's nice that he posts some of his work online before it get's published.
And Belle, not sure if you know but Princep's Fury came out a couple of months ago. Haven't had a chance at it though, it's currently in transit.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I have indeed read it! It was not my favorite, until toward the end when Butcher pulled out one of his "What the?" moments. You know, the ones where you as a reader just say...wait a minute...did he just DO that?
So in all, I rank it pretty high...though I think Cursor's Fury is still my fave.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by Belle: My latest fantasy series is the Codex Alera by Butcher. I'm actually quite fond of it.
I just read that as well, and loved it. Enough so that I buy them in hardcover, which I don't do often.
Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
Natural Mystic mentioned Steven Erikson, but no one else has. I'm reading Gardens of the Moon at the moment, and finding it rather uninvolving so far, mainly because there aren't any characters I care about in any way so far. I'm not quite 200 pages in, but seem to find other things to do rather than read it, which is not the way I read at all usually.
Anybody else read any of the Malazan books?
Posted by natural_mystic (Member # 11760) on :
Gardens of the Moon is the weakest of the Malazan series - I think it has some plotting flaws and it has some inconsistencies with regard to the later books. It also suffers from the fact that he has built an extremely complex world with a variety of civilizations (it is telling that he was an archaeologist) and he has to convey this without turning it into a text book. The other books are easier because the readers know more. HOWEVER there are few better than Erikson for bringing things together for a grand ending - I will be very surprised if you still feel this way for the last hundred pages.
Posted by TheGrimace (Member # 9178) on :
If you're willing to dip into alternative fantasy, then I highly recommend Jim Butcher's Dresden Files books.
His writing is not always spectacular, but he is always engaging, very witty, you get attached to the characters and has a really well-done fantasy world built in modern-day Chicago.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Yeah, I have read Butcher's Dresden books too. Very engaging, lots of fun.
Garth Nix has a fantasy series - Sabriel, Lirael, and Abhorsen that is marketed young adult but in my opinion some of the best fantasy I've read. Definitely not childish.
Posted by Godric 2.0 (Member # 11443) on :
Tigana by Guy Gavriel Kay.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
I've gone on record as saying I believe the A Song of Ice and Fire series to be the best ever written (and I don't just mean fantasy).
The last book to be released was something of a hiccup, but I still believe this to be true.
[ January 07, 2009, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: Xavier ]
Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
Thanks, Natural Mystic, I'll keep at it.
Will second enthusiastically A Song of Ice and Fire, although he takes so darn long to write the things...
Posted by _ajax_ (Member # 301) on :
Jhereg by Steven Brust (and all of the sequels) - I've read and re-read these since they started appearing when I was high school in the '80s. Very fun, more like fantasy/mystery/crime books.
Memory, Sorrow and Thorn by Tad Williams - next to the LOTR this my favorite fantasy epic. An original world setting that feels familiar and believable coupled with archetypal heroes that stay with you forever.
The Deed of Paksenarrion by Elizabeth Moon - Might tend towards the juvenile but an exciting read. Feels a lot like an AD&D world.
I'm very surprised no one has mentioned Wizard's First Rule by Terry Goodkind. The series gets too long, too dark and too preachy (politically) but the first three books are pretty exciting.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by _ajax_: I'm very surprised no one has mentioned Wizard's First Rule by Terry Goodkind. The series gets too long, too dark and too preachy (politically) but the first three books are pretty exciting.
Sixth post on this page.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
I'll second the Sword of Truth series, though I've only read the first- parts of it were just FUNNY.
My recommendations deal with my current interests, so...
Rhapsody by Elizabeth Haydon is the first of six books (really, two trilogies) in The Symphony of the Ages. It takes a bit to get into the MAIN storyline, but once you do, it's well worth it- I read for three days straight to finish the second two books, Prophecy, and Destiny, because I was so into them.
Green Rider by Kristen Britain is the first of what's right now a trilogy- the third just came out in paperback, but as I'm weird and read the last sentence, I'm 99% sure there will be a fourth(I'm reading the third right now).
Posted by Traceria (Member # 11820) on :
quote:Originally posted by Darth_Mauve: I have enjoyed the "Belgariad" by David Eddings. I know that some here find it too talky and a bit light.
I third or fourth or whatever that series and the one following it (The Malloreon). The audiobook versions of those are really amusing. Cameron Beierle's performace gets a thumbs up.
Also firsting/seconding/thirding/n-ing: - The Chronicles of Prydain are exceptional as well as Lloyd Alexander's stand alone The Arkandians, which had me laughing and laughing throughout when I was down with something flu-like. - All the Wrinkle in Time books by Madeline L'Engle - Anything by Diana Wynne Jones, but if I had to choose ONE it would be Hexwood - Codex Alera series by Jim Butcher (Princep's is waiting for me to get to it. Took a slight detour into Agatha Christie land first.) Love the Dresden Files as well. - Patricia C. Wrede's princess quartet was highly amusing. - Anne McCaffrey's Pern novels (starting with the three Dragonriders of Pern novels) and her Acorna series (with Margaret Ball) - The Last Unicorn by Peter S. Beagle
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by _ajax_: [QB] Memory, Sorrow and Thorn by Tad Williams - next to the LOTR this my favorite fantasy epic. An original world setting that feels familiar and believable coupled with archetypal heroes that stay with you forever.
I really need to give this series another try. I've started it a time or two on Tom Davidson's recommendation, but I've never gotten more than 60 pages into it. I like William's Otherland series, so I can easily believe that the people recommending the book are right that it's worth reading.
quote:The Deed of Paksenarrion by Elizabeth Moon - Might tend towards the juvenile but an exciting read.
I'll second this. Moon isn't among my favorite authors by any stretch of the imagination (though I've recently been told that I really need to give The Speed of Dark a try), but the Paksenarrion books are pretty solid. They definitely get more interesting as they go along.
Has anybody mentioned Guy Gavirel Kay's Sarantine Mosaic duology, or his Last Light of the Sun? They're mostly unrelated to each other, but they're set in a shared world (along with The Lions of Al-Rasan, which I haven't yet read but which is on my list), and are fantastically well written. I love the way Kay writes barely fantasized verions of actual history, and the writing is just achingly good.
Gene Wolf's Soldier duology, comprised of Soldier of the Mist and Soldier of Arete, is well worth reading, as are The Knight and its sequel The Wizard. I'm told his The Book of the New Sun series is incredibly good, but I haven't gotten around to reading it yet. Probably much to quisling's displeasure, since its her copies of the book that I've got on my shelf. I should get to that one, probably next.
Welcome to Hatrack, ajax. Did you name yourself after the programming language, Big Ajax, or Little Ajax?
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
The Infinity Concerto / The Serpent Mage by Greg Bear. Amazing...
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
Oh, and I can't believe no one has mentioned The Chronicles of Amber, and the series that inspired it, Philip Jose Farmer's World of Tiers.
Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
On Tad Williams, I've just started reading War of the Flowers (yes, finally gave up on Gardens of the Moon, just couldn't get engaged after 200 pages, and I'm too old too waste reading time on books that feel like a chore) and have read the Otherland books which were extremely good and never felt repetitious or strung out like the Wheel of Time series.
I gave up on the Terry Goodkind books after the one with that ludicrous statue of Richard and Kahlan on the cover, couldn't handle the political tract that became at the end, and the fact that at the end of the book nothing had happened. Agree that the first few were good reads though.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Oh, and I can't believe no one has mentioned The Chronicles of Amber, and the series that inspired it, Philip Jose Farmer's World of Tiers.
Oh yeah! I can't believe that either!
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cashew: I gave up on the Terry Goodkind books after the one with that ludicrous statue of Richard and Kahlan on the cover, couldn't handle the political tract that became at the end, and the fact that at the end of the book nothing had happened. Agree that the first few were good reads though.
Faith of the Fallen. After the first book, that was my favorite.
Posted by Magson (Member # 2300) on :
I second/repeat the recommendations for:
Sanderson's Mistborn trilogy. His standalone "Elantris" is also most excellent.
Butcher's Dresden and Codex Alera series
Devid Eddings Belgariad and Mallorean
Anything by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Feist's "Magician" series
The 1st few "Sword of Truth" books.
And then some of my own suggestions:
RA Salvatore's Dark Elf trilogy. The rest of his Drizzt stuff is kinda meh, but the DE trilogy shines, IMO.
Dennis L. McKiernan's Iron Tower trilogy, Silver call duology, and standalone "Dragondoom." Especially Iron Tower and Dragondoom
Harry Turtledove's "Darkness" series -- essentially a fantasy retelling of WWII, but he makes it work.
Chris Bunch's DragonMaster series
Trudi Canavan -- any of her stuff
Sara Douglass -- Wayfarer Redemption kicks off a pretty good series. I also liked her "Troy Game" series. Didn't care so much for the "crucible" series. "The Hanging Wall" and "Threshold" standalones were good though. I'm not sure if I like how she's melding everything into a single world anymore in "Serpent Bride," but I'll probably keep reading anyway.
Jennifer Fallon -- "Second Sons" trilogy ruled. The 6 books in the "Hythrun" world were all quite good too. Apparently she's got new stuff out that I haven't seen yet also. Time to go back to the bookstore for me. . . .
Patricia Brigg's older stuff is pretty decent.
Christopher Stasheff's "Wizard in Rhyme" series is ok, though the 1st book is by far the best while the rest are a bit more so-so. His early "Warlock in spite of himself" stuff was good too, but he overmilked his franchise there, IMO.
Michael Stackpole's "Dark Glory War" is amazing. His later "Cartomancy" stuff is quite good too. I also love his older standalones and duologies like Eyes of Silver, Talion: Revenant, Once a Hero and it's sequel -- most excellent stuff. This guy's in my Top 3, so far as favorite authors go. He even makes the (generally) crappy Battletech and Star Wars books readable whenever he's contracted to write them -- that's how good he is.
I could go on, but it's almost time for me to get off work ;-)
And FWIW, I *despise* the Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever books. I was told they're wicked aweseme, but I spent the whole 1st book wanting to kill the protagonist myself and hoping the bad guys would actually win so I wouldn't have to listen to his constant whining about EVERYTHING. Plus he raped his closest supporter, and yet he's supposed to be the hero? Nope -- I couldn't identify with the character in the slightest. I will never read anything more from that author as a result.
Posted by Armoth (Member # 4752) on :
Hmm. That got me thinking. Are there any books out there where the bad guys win? Where you're meant not to like the protagonist and to root for the bad-guys? I can imagine that takes some wickedly clever writing...
Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
Quoting Lisa: "Faith of the Fallen. After the first book, that was my favorite"
Wow, Lisa, really? I enjoyed all the other books before that one, but Faith of the Fallen killed it for me. Two things did it, firstly the blatant political tract that it was and the caricatures of charcters that Richard was dealing with at the end, along with the just plain silly, unbelievable effect that his sculpture had on people(and funnily enough my political leanings are towards the conservative side of the spectrum). It smacked way too much of the simplistic qualities of Ayn Rand's stuff.
And secondly, the way that by the very end of the book, absolutley NOTHING had happened to advance the overall plot of the series. The whole book was like a diversion from the real story so Goodkind could get his political ideas across.
As I said it wrecked the series for me, made me feel very cynical about it, although I really liked them up to that point, the first 3 or 4 especially. I thought he introduced some really cool new things to fantasy in those first couple of books. The Mordsiths were especially compelling.
I'd be really interested to know why it's your (2nd)favourite book of the series, Lisa.
Posted by natural_mystic (Member # 11760) on :
quote:Originally posted by Armoth: Hmm. That got me thinking. Are there any books out there where the bad guys win? Where you're meant not to like the protagonist and to root for the bad-guys? I can imagine that takes some wickedly clever writing...
Joe Abercrombie's trilogy starting with the Blade Itself, to some degree. I won't elaborate and risk spoilers.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Has anyone mentioned Cook's Black Company novels yet?
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cashew: Quoting Lisa: "Faith of the Fallen. After the first book, that was my favorite"
Wow, Lisa, really? I enjoyed all the other books before that one, but Faith of the Fallen killed it for me. Two things did it, firstly the blatant political tract that it was and the caricatures of charcters that Richard was dealing with at the end, along with the just plain silly, unbelievable effect that his sculpture had on people(and funnily enough my political leanings are towards the conservative side of the spectrum). It smacked way too much of the simplistic qualities of Ayn Rand's stuff.
See, I like Rand, though. Yes, her characters are archetypes, and you're never really going to run into anyone who is completely like any of her characters. That's a type of literature, and some people like it while others hate it. To give you an example, in Les Miserables, both Javert and Valjean are archetypical characters in the same way. They're extremes that you're not going to run into in the real world. But they stand for ideas. The same is true of Dagny Taggart and John Galt and Elsworth Toohey and the rest.
I don't mind a book preaching at me if (a) the message isn't something I find really odious and (b) it's well argued. And (b) is the more important of the two for me. I've read books that argue strongly for various types of statism and enjoyed them despite being utterly opposed to the ideas put forth.
quote:Originally posted by Cashew: And secondly, the way that by the very end of the book, absolutley NOTHING had happened to advance the overall plot of the series. The whole book was like a diversion from the real story so Goodkind could get his political ideas across.
There's so little out there that presents the Objectivist point of view that I was utterly psyched to see it in Goodkind's books. And I don't really think it didn't advance the plot. It went some ways towards explaining some of Richards decisions, both in that book and in later books.
quote:Originally posted by Cashew: As I said it wrecked the series for me, made me feel very cynical about it, although I really liked them up to that point, the first 3 or 4 especially. I thought he introduced some really cool new things to fantasy in those first couple of books. The Mordsiths were especially compelling.
In a very creepy way. Gawd, I had a hard time reading the stuff with Denna.
quote:Originally posted by Cashew: I'd be really interested to know why it's your (2nd)favourite book of the series, Lisa.
And it's a very close second.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by natural_mystic:
quote:Originally posted by Armoth: Hmm. That got me thinking. Are there any books out there where the bad guys win? Where you're meant not to like the protagonist and to root for the bad-guys? I can imagine that takes some wickedly clever writing...
Joe Abercrombie's trilogy starting with the Blade Itself, to some degree. I won't elaborate and risk spoilers.
Lawrence Block has some stories of that sort, with Martin Ehrengraf. Ehrengraf is a particularly nasty piece of work, but it's fun to watch him do his thing.
Block also has a character called Keller, who kills people. He's written at least four Keller books.
Posted by Darth_Mauve (Member # 4709) on :
Janny Wurts wrote a heavy fantasy series called "The War of Light and Shadow" where the Blonde, Friendly, Hansom hero is really the cause of all the problems, deaths, and destruction as he fights a curse-induced war against his brother, a dark, quiet but brilliant emo-prince who just wants to be left alone, and who defends himself as best he can.
Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
Thanks Lisa. I read Rand in college and liked it when I read it, but again got turned off by what I felt was its simplisticness (I guess that's a word). I have no problems with archetypes, but I saw more by way of caricature in the minor and incidental characters in Ayn Rand, not so much in the major ones, and much more of caricature in "Faith".
And as I said I found the response to the statue completely unbelievable. I know what he was trying to get across, the statue as the embodiment of all the qualities that were lacking in the society Richard was in (can't remember the name of it sorry, it's been a while), but to me at least, Goodkind didn't make it work.
And, I have to say as an artist and teacher of art I'm aware of the impact that art can have and has had on societies. And my acceptance wasn't helped by the horrible cover illustration of the sculpture, which made them look far too contemporary, straight out of a gym, for my tastes. I think, on reflection, they (the publishers) were on to a no-winner, attempting to depict something which was supposed to cause such an epiphany for the masses.
I think it's interesting to see people's differing reactions to things.
(Edit for Mordsith response: Creepy, yes, but extraordinarily powerful...)
Posted by Traceria (Member # 11820) on :
quote:Originally posted by Armoth: Hmm. That got me thinking. Are there any books out there where the bad guys win? Where you're meant not to like the protagonist and to root for the bad-guys? I can imagine that takes some wickedly clever writing...
Not sure, but there are definitely ones with stalemates. You want some bleak endings? Watch some anime. Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:Originally posted by natural_mystic:
quote:Originally posted by Armoth: Hmm. That got me thinking. Are there any books out there where the bad guys win? Where you're meant not to like the protagonist and to root for the bad-guys? I can imagine that takes some wickedly clever writing...
Joe Abercrombie's trilogy starting with the Blade Itself, to some degree. I won't elaborate and risk spoilers.
Lawrence Block has some stories of that sort, with Martin Ehrengraf. Ehrengraf is a particularly nasty piece of work, but it's fun to watch him do his thing.
Block also has a character called Keller, who kills people. He's written at least four Keller books.
The funny thing is, I was listening to the soundtrack from Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog while I wrote this, and it didn't occur to me to offer that as an example.
Posted by Architraz Warden (Member # 4285) on :
quote:Originally posted by Magson:
Chris Bunch's DragonMaster series
I was wondering if anyone here had read any of Chris Bunch's (or Allan Cole's) series.
I just finished off the Dragonmaster series earlier this month. It's fun and fairly light fantasy reading. (I think I preferred the King series of his though). At the very least, the books give a great, and at least to me, somewhat rare and detailed account of what it might be like to fight from the back of a dragon. Most books never account for limitations of weapons when on a dragon, or the possibilities of harness attachments. (Some what appropriately, The Last Battle was the final book of his I hadn't read, and hadn't realized he had died a few years ago until reading the back flap.)
The King series (Seer King, Demon King, Warrior King) seemed to be a bit more mature (both content and writing style) and a bit better IMO. But both are good, quick, series for those looking. Also look into Kingdoms of the Night that he co-wrote with Allan Cole, though eventually you'll run into my one grip with Bunch, in that his protagonists between series tended to be eerily similar.
Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
I'd like to recommend David Anthony Durham's "Acacia", although, ahem, I haven't actually read it... I bought it on the strength of his "Pride of Carthage" about Hannibal, which was absolutely brilliant, beautifully written and a great read.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Dexter, as a TV show, has a serial killer as the hero. The twist is that he isn't as bad as his targets, but you can't help but root for him anyway. :...and it feels weird rooting for a psychopath.
The Dexter series started as books, too, and I think I'll be picking them up soon.
I HATED Faith of the Fallen. I don't like, or need, being hit over the head with poorly written, trite ideology in the guise of a fantasy novel. It had no subtlety, and the stoy inself seemed poorly plotted.
I had been a fan of his before that, and really liked the first two books.....but I gave up a few books later. I could care less about finishing it now, and that is almost unthinkable for me.
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I have one bookcase just for my favorites, and almost every one of those books are on those shelves.![[Wink]](wink.gif)