My son is three year old son weighs about 35 lbs. and is tall. The seat says to switch to booster when they hit 40 lbs., and says that the harness straps should be slightly above the shoulders. He is so tall that his shoulders are above the straps by about an inch (he uses the tallest strap setting). He has been taller than the straps since he hit 32 lbs. Right now he is in a get taller phase of his growth, not in a bulk out phase. I can't decide which is safer to move him to booster because of his height, or keep him in the harnesses because of his weight. I have so far just let inertia work and left it the way it is.
On a note that frustrates me, he is taller and weighs more than all of his friends, but they are all in boosters because their parents did not want to work the harness straps anymore.
[ December 11, 2008, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: School4ever ]
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
I would think it is safer to keep them in a 5-point harness. There may be some car seats out there you can buy which will allow for a taller child. I know there are some that allow for higher weights than 40 lbs. The safest thing would probably be to do some research and find a car seat that fits him better.
I know some parents who are moving their 3-year-olds out of car seats for convenience but I think it's a bad idea. In fact, if a child is still fitting in a car seat, I don't see any reason to take them out of the 5-point harness when they turn 4 (the age at which most states say they can legally go to a booster). I'll let size determine when my son moves, and as he's on the small size, he miht be 5 or 6. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
A five point harness is outgrown when one of three things happens:
1. The weight limit is outgrown. 2. The tops of child's ears (midpoint of the head, roughly) is above the back of the seat. (Note-- this also applies to boosters-- a high back booster is outgrown at this point too, and a low-back booster is outgrown in this regard to the vehicle seatback or headrest.) 3. The shoulders go above the top harness slots.
Having the shoulders above the top harness slots is very dangerous and can cause serious spinal injury in a crash.
If you can give me one measurement, I can recommend a variety of seats that will fit him for a while longer. This is the measurement I need and how to measure it:
To measure for torso height, have the child sit straight up against a wall. Make a mark at the highest part of the shoulders. Move the child and measure from that mark to the floor. This length in inches is the child's torso height.
There are many seats that harness past 40 lbs. and are designed for taller kids on the market now. Ideally children should stay harnessed until they are at least 5 or 6 years of age AND 40 lbs., and have the ability to sit still in the car on every ride you are going to take. (The five or six has to do with hip development as well as ability to sit still. Seven is an even better age in regards to hip development.)
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: and have the ability to sit still in the car on every ride you are going to take.
So, pretty much never?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
LOL! By "sit still" I mean, as still as necessary to stay within the confines of the booster seat, not leaning forward, turning around, or unbuckling themselves, keeping the shoulder and lap belts properly positioned. Many kids are capable of this by 5, most by 6, and some even by 4.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Also, as a learning tool, while learning how to sit properly, seatbelts with switchable locking retractors can be locked while the child is in the booster.
I want to reiterate that using a harness outgrown by height is extremely dangerous-- so dangerous that I loaned Bridget's backup seat to Emma's dance class friend while her mom shops for a taller seat for her, because I was so worried about what would happen if they were in a crash. Bridget's BRAND NEW backup seat, that I had just bought. I'd rather not have a backup for Bridget (something that does worry me) than have a child be in a seat outgrown by height.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
I have a car seat question, too! My little one is 9 months, 29 inches long, and 21 lbs, 9 oz.
We have a chicco infant seat with a 22-pound weight limit, and 30 inches height limit, so she's very close to the limit, even though she is still using the middle strap height.
I would like her to be rear-facing as long as possible. What seat do you recommend?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
First of all, the length limits on carseats are "more what you would call guidelines."
The seat is not outgrown until she has less than one inch between the top of her head and the top of the shell (hard shell, not cover); conversely, if she has less than one inch already, even though she is not at the length "limit" (guideline) she needs to be in a different seat ASAP. All kids are built individually, and will outgrow seats at different lengths because of weight and torso height.
There are several considerations to choosing a convertible seat. I'm going to give you a few considerations, and you tell me what is most important to you, and I can make recommendations based on that.
-Price-- what's your budget? And are you willing to spend more for seats with better ease of use or added features, or do you just want one that may be harder to install or use, but will be cheaper? -Do you plan to have to ever get 3 passengers across the seat of your car? If so, in carseats/boosters or older kids/adults who won't need one? -What kind of car do you have (make, model, and year?) -Do you plan to do a lot of travel with this seat? -Lastly, do you prefer to buy a seat that will rear-face a long time and then buy a dedicated forward-facing seat (either harness only or combo harness/booster) when the time comes that is outgrown forward-facing (which will happen sooner in forty pound limit seats) or do you want a seat that will probably last until booster age, and when it's outgrown buy a dedicated booster?
Based on those factors I can make better suggestions. (You're in the U.S., right?)
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
Yes, I'm in the US. (Georgia)
I have a simplicity bassinet that I have to return because it was recalled, and that will give me about $100 for the car seat. I don't have much money at all, but I could probably get a little more if I needed to. Under $200 would be best.
We do plan to have at least one more child, but we plan to wait until we're in better circumstances. So let's say no?
We have a 2004 hyundai santa fe. We don't travel a lot, but when we do, it's all at once. 5+ hours at a time.
As for your last question, I don't know. I would prefer to have just one more seat, but I'm okay with buying another one in a few years. I imagine that if we ever do have 3 kids, we're going to need more than one seat anyway. (And we may get lucky enough that the kids outgrow them all at the same time... yeah right!)
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
There are currently no seats that rear- and forward-face harness AND make a good booster. There are seats that make a good forward-facing harness and booster, and there are seats that claim to do all three-- but the ones that claim to do all three do not actually make a good booster. So eventually you will have to buy another seat, be it combo seat and booster. Luckily there are now some great, inexpensive combo seats on the market. And it will be years before you will have to buy one in any case-- at least 2 years at the least.
In your price range, here are my recommendations (cheapest to most expensive):
-Safety 1st Avenue. This seat only harnesses to 40 lbs. BUT has a very tall shell. It lasts most kids all the way to 40 lbs., even tall skinny ones. My 35 lb., long-torsoed daughters both still fit in it by height and even have room to grow. Rear faces to 35 lbs. (highest limit currently on the U.S. market.) Sometimes needs a chunk of pool noodle or rolled towel to achieve good rear-facing install/recline. About $75-90 depending on store, sales, coupons, etc. (I'm not sure but this seat MAY have an 8 year expiration instead of 6 year. If so it would be an excellent candidate for passing down to a younger sib if stored and cleaned properly and not crashed in that time.)
-Evenflo Triumph Advance. Has a fairly tall shell, infinite adjusting harness (never have to re-thread it), rear-faces to 35 lbs. and forward-faces to 50. Gets many kids to an acceptable booster age. Sometimes the adjustment knobs hit the seatback while rear-facing in cars with very contoured seats (don't know if your car has those, never seen one.) About $120 to $160 depending on sales and on model (regular or deluxe, etc.; there's no specs difference, just make sure it's the ADVANCE, not the regular Triumph.)
-First Years True Fit. This seat has a detachable top portion that you don't have to use until 22 lbs. or bottom part is outgrown by height. When the top part is attached, it has the tallest seat back of any seat currently on the market, great for both rear-facing and forward-facing kids until they don't need to be. Rear-facing harnesses to 35 lbs., forward-faces to 65, and will get most kids to a safe booster age. Between $165 and $200.
The Avenue is available at Sears and K-Mart as well as online; the other two are available at many major retailers including most Targets, if you want to look at them in person.
If you'd like help finding deals on the one you choose, e-mail me, my carseat boards usually keep track of what's the best buy on all these seats on a regular basis. Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
Wow. Thank you so much.
Is there a safety difference in going for a cheaper seat? I heard that they don't publish the safety ratings because supposedly they all meet the same guidelines. Is that true?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Here's the deal on that:
It is true that all seats meet the minimums required by law. Some, however, are more equal than others, if you know what I mean...
The reason I did not recommend the cheapest seat on the market, the Scenera, which has a shorter shell for forward-facing but actually lasts most kids to the rear-facing limit of 35 lbs., is that it does not have EPS or EPP foam. These are energy absorbing foams that help better distribute the forces in certain kinds of crashes, especially side-impact crashes. I feel it is an important safety feature and the Scenera is the only seat left on the market that does not have it.
Other than that, there are more expensive seats that offer features that can make the seats more safe in certain kinds of crashes and situations. However, they are basically icing. I consider the Avenue just as safe as the True Fit as long as both are installed correctly and used correctly every time.
The only real differences between the seats I listed are ease-of-use features, looks, and how long they will last your child. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Oh, and Sunshine Kids Juvenile Products (makers of the Radian seats and the Monterey booster) are the only ones who currently publish their crash data. Some people have been pushing Britax to do so as well but it is at this point unclear if they will ever agree to.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
You know so much about car seats, kq. How did that come to be? Thank you so much again for your expertise. The car seat market is daunting!
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I have done extensive research and reading and installed a lot of seats. Also, I have a very good memory for things I'm interested in.
I love sharing this info, I know it can be daunting, so since it's my passion to collect it, I might as well distribute it as widely as possible!
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
(Also, I have 3 kids and own 11 seats.
It's kind of an addiction.
I did promise to get rid of some of those soon.)
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
What's the logic of having back up seats on hand?
Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
I know it is helpful to have an extra for traveling in other people's cars (without having to uninstall and reinstall yours, since it can be very time consuming with some seats) or for bringing extra children in your car. I imagine it would also come in really handy if you're in an accident (that would require replacing your carseat).
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by ludosti: I know it is helpful to have an extra for traveling in other people's cars (without having to uninstall and reinstall yours, since it can be very time consuming with some seats) or for bringing extra children in your car. I imagine it would also come in really handy if you're in an accident (that would require replacing your carseat).
Exactly. Many of my "extra" seats are seats that my kids have outgrown and should probably be given away now.
However, my kids each have one "official" backup seat. See, we only have one car. If there is an emergency and I have to get a ride with someone somewhere, I have people I can call-- but I'd have to install carseats for my kids in their cars. Also, when a kid rides with Grandpa or Grandma or an aunt, I don't have to uninstall their seats, I can just install their backup in whoever is taking them's car. And we have been in the situation of having seats be in the car in a crash and having to replace them; until the seats are replaced we have to have other seats for the kids to use. The seats that are in our primary car are not to be found in brick-and-mortar stores, so it takes time for them to be ordered online, in which time we would be unable to go anywhere with the kids in the car if we did not have seats. But my primary thing is that we are vulnerable without a car at home. If heaven forbid we have to go to the hospital or something we need seats for the kids available. (For instance, during my last pregnancy my mom ended up taking me to L&D for monitoring and rehydration when I got sick during tax season. My husband was unable to immediately leave work, so I was glad I had seats to put in her car for my kids.)
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Ah. I'm a bit more of the mind that if we really need to go somewhere and the seats we already own aren't available, it's time to pretend it's 1953.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
That would not only be extremely dangerous, but illegal in my state (don't know about yours, but if your kids were my kids' age, probably would be.)
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
I would like to pick your brain, too. I know now that with my first child, I moved her to the next level (rear to forward, harness to booster) too early. I based my decisions on the instruction manuals for the seats, not knowing that you're supposed to stay at each level until you have to move up.
So I want to do things better with the new one, and need to buy a new car seat anyway. I have a 1998 Buick Century, and don't intend to have to fit three kids across the back. The center seat has fold down armrests, which I think I remember reading means you can't put a car seat there. I don't do a whole lot of driving anymore, but there would definitely be at least a couple of times a year with multi-hour trips. I really like the seats with sliding harness adjusting thing; so much easier than rethreading! If the new one grows like my daughter, then I would expect to outgrow height before weight. I plan to buy the seat with tax return money, so although I don't plan to be extravagant, I don't need an ultra-cheap model, either. I'd also like to get a new booster seat for my four year old. She's been belt-only for about a year, should I put her back in harness?
Also, where should I go to get my installations checked out? I always follow the instruction manual and read it thoroughly, but it would be good to be sure. I've seen fire departments mentioned, but we're very rural and I don't know that the local VFDs would actually know anything about that.
Let me know if you need me to answer any more questions about what I want/need/have. Thanks!
--Mel
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
"That would not only be extremely dangerous, but illegal in my state (don't know about yours, but if your kids were my kids' age, probably would be.)"
Define "extremely." IMO, it would be mildly dangerous, sort of like walking beside a road, or eating the food at a pot luck.
So far, we haven't had to go anywhere so desperately when the car seats are elsewhere that we've actually done so...I don't think I'm taking that big of a risk.
Illegal, yes, but we do keep them strapped in under all normal circumstances.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Except in, I think, one instance, you can put seats in a center seat with a fold-down armrest. Buic used to say you can't but now says you can and made that retroactive to all models. However those seats are often small and if you're putting 2 seats in it's probably easier not to use the center seat.
For a newborn, the Evenflo Triumph Advance fits them really, really well. I know someone who brought a preemie home from the NICU in one, they fit small babies that well! That would probably be a good choice for you.
You should definitely have your four year old in something (I'm reading "belt only" as "not in any kind of seat." Correct me if I'm wrong!) What kind of seatbelts does your car have, lap/shoulder or lap only? That affects your options.
A few questions on her:
-How much does she weigh? -How long is her torso, measured as above? -Does she wiggle around a lot or is she sitting well in her seat? -Where does the belt hit her? -Where do her legs bend?
Personally, I do not feel comfortable letting any of my kids out of a harness before 6, because of what I know about development of the hip bones and their ability to distribute forces. But, it's a parental decision. If you feel she sits well in a booster and she has a high-back booster with a lap-shoulder belt that fits her appropriately, that is an appropriate choice for many four year olds.
As for techs, what area are you in? I have a list somewhere of recommended techs, many of whom are willing to travel. If none are nearby I can check around for local resources for you. (You can e-mail me this info if you don't feel comfortable sharing it.)
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Extremely: likely to cause extreme harm in a crash. Google "seatbelt syndrome pics" if you want graphic information on that.
And please remember also that I have a 7, almost 8 month old baby. She can't use a seatbelt, at all. She needs a seat. No seat for baby= baby goes flying.
Posted by School4ever (Member # 5575) on :
He is 40 inches tall, 16 inches bum to shoulder. This means that he has not gotten any taller in six months, but he is gearing up to do so. For the past week he has been saying, "Mommy, I am soooo huuuungry, when do we get to eat." All day long. Even five minutes after lunch. Even though he ate his lunch AND his friend's lunch. Sorry, I get frustrated with the constant begging for food.
We have a 97 Ford Taurus Wagon. We need to have room for three seats because we are trying to adopt a sibling group.
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Extremely: likely to cause extreme harm in a crash. Google "seatbelt syndrome pics" if you want graphic information on that.
And please remember also that I have a 7, almost 8 month old baby. She can't use a seatbelt, at all. She needs a seat. No seat for baby= baby goes flying.
But you have to consider the probabilities of a crash as well. Now, I'm not discounting that crashes do happen - we were in one six weeks ago, and our car is STILL not out of the garage. We were very lucky that we went with a larger sports car rather than the Mieta my husband wanted, since the Mieta would have crumpled around my legs to probably not good results.
But, still, that's only the second serious accident I've been in during my entire life. The chances of any particular car ride involving a car crash is extremely low. Because of that, I'm willing to give a pass on people who don't always follow exact safety rules every time, as long as they don't make a habit of it.
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Except in, I think, one instance, you can put seats in a center seat with a fold-down armrest. Buic used to say you can't but now says you can and made that retroactive to all models. However those seats are often small and if you're putting 2 seats in it's probably easier not to use the center seat.
That's good to know! I don't know that we'll be having a third child, and if we do, I hope that we'll be able to afford something with more seating by then, but it's good that I could use that seat if I absolutely had to. The Century is a pretty wide car, so the middle seat is actually not too small.
quote:For a newborn, the Evenflo Triumph Advance fits them really, really well. I know someone who brought a preemie home from the NICU in one, they fit small babies that well! That would probably be a good choice for you.
I will look into that one!
quote:You should definitely have your four year old in something (I'm reading "belt only" as "not in any kind of seat." Correct me if I'm wrong!) What kind of seatbelts does your car have, lap/shoulder or lap only? That affects your options.
Oh, I meant a belt-only booster. In bed last night I suddenly realized that it probably sounded like she wasn't in a seat at all. My car has lap/shoulder belts for both of the side seats, and lap only in the middle. She sits on the side. Her old convertible car seat was high-backed, but last time we flew the baggage handlers broke off the hooks that the shoulder belt goes through, so I bought a new one. I didn't have a lot of money, so I got a low-backed one, but I think that was a mistake.
quote:A few questions on her:
-How much does she weigh? -How long is her torso, measured as above? -Does she wiggle around a lot or is she sitting well in her seat? -Where does the belt hit her? -Where do her legs bend?
I'm not certain exactly how much she weighs, but it should be right around 40 lbs or a bit higher. She was 38 lbs in early summer. I guess I should get a scale.
Torso is 15-1/2" long.
She mostly sits quietly, but does wiggle some, I guess.
The belt is the reason why I want to get her a different seat. The low-back seat definitely does not position it as well as her previous seat, and it has a tendency to slide up to her neck. I know that's not good.
Her legs bend right at the edge of the booster seat.
quote:Personally, I do not feel comfortable letting any of my kids out of a harness before 6, because of what I know about development of the hip bones and their ability to distribute forces. But, it's a parental decision. If you feel she sits well in a booster and she has a high-back booster with a lap-shoulder belt that fits her appropriately, that is an appropriate choice for many four year olds.
I am becoming inclined to put her back into a harness seat. It's going to be tough to get one of her sets of grandparents on board with that. It was hard enough getting them to install the car seat correctly in their vehicle. No matter how many times I explained it, they couldn't grasp why locking seat belts were so important. They thought it was good enough that they would lock in a crash. Oh, well, I'll just have to put my foot down and say that they don't take her anywhere unless she's harnessed. She only rides in their vehicle a couple of times a year, anyway.
quote:As for techs, what area are you in? I have a list somewhere of recommended techs, many of whom are willing to travel. If none are nearby I can check around for local resources for you. (You can e-mail me this info if you don't feel comfortable sharing it.)
I'm in eastern Ohio, middle of the state. Wheeling, WV is about 25 minutes away, and Pittsburgh is about an hour.
Thank you so much for your help and advice. I should learn all of this for myself, but it really helps to just have a starting point so that it doesn't seem so overwhelming.
--Mel
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jhai:
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Extremely: likely to cause extreme harm in a crash. Google "seatbelt syndrome pics" if you want graphic information on that.
And please remember also that I have a 7, almost 8 month old baby. She can't use a seatbelt, at all. She needs a seat. No seat for baby= baby goes flying.
But you have to consider the probabilities of a crash as well. Now, I'm not discounting that crashes do happen - we were in one six weeks ago, and our car is STILL not out of the garage. We were very lucky that we went with a larger sports car rather than the Mieta my husband wanted, since the Mieta would have crumpled around my legs to probably not good results.
But, still, that's only the second serious accident I've been in during my entire life. The chances of any particular car ride involving a car crash is extremely low. Because of that, I'm willing to give a pass on people who don't always follow exact safety rules every time, as long as they don't make a habit of it.
As soon as you let yourself start thinking this way, it becomes all too easy to make a habit of it. Not to mention that the ONE time you go out without following the safety rules may be ONE time too many.
If you think about it, it's actually pretty unlikely that you'll get pregnant if you have sex without protection. Once the egg is released, you have 12-24 hours to fertilize it and sperm typically lives 3-5 days so in the grand scheme of things, it's not that risky to have unprotected sex every once in a while as long as you don't make a habit of it.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
Back on topic --
When moving my son's car seat (the Safety First 3 stage which you don't seem to like ) to another car one day, we lost the belt to latch it in using the latch system. I've heard different things about the latch system and all indications are that the seat is really just as safe being belted in (which is how we have it now since we lost the latch) but I'm not sure. What do you think about that one?
I will be needing to buy a new car seat soon for my 6-month-old soon. I've decided this time to go with a regular car seat that doesn't convert to a booster...but one that can go forward or backward. Booster seats just aren't that expensive, I noticed recently, so there's really no point in doing the 3-stage. If I can find one that's a reasonable price, I may replace my 3-year-old's at the same time. But I can't afford 2 $300 car seats.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:As soon as you let yourself start thinking this way, it becomes all too easy to make a habit of it. Not to mention that the ONE time you go out without following the safety rules may be ONE time too many.
If you think about it, it's actually pretty unlikely that you'll get pregnant if you have sex without protection. Once the egg is released, you have 12-24 hours to fertilize it and sperm typically lives 3-5 days so in the grand scheme of things, it's not that risky to have unprotected sex every once in a while as long as you don't make a habit of it.
Whoa. Remember, I think we're talking about the idea of not having spare car seats on hand, and similarly sized risks, not about tossing the kids in the trunk every once in a while just for kicks.
KQ described a situation where her extra safety precautions came in handy, but really, there were other options: 1. Call a cab, have grandma stay at home with the other kids. 2. Take grandma's car, have her stay home with the kids.
So you see, even in that situation I wouldn't say that there was an urgent need to go somewhere with the kids that necessitated having backup seats on hand.
I totally get that spare seats make various situations a LOT more convenient without sacrificing safety, and I totally support KQ in making that investment according to her preferences.
In my situation, though, I think the investment in spare car seats has a poor return. In the unlikely event that I really must take the kids somewhere and my car seats are unavailable, I'm willing to take my chances. I'm just not going to buy insurance against the particularly tiny risk that such a need will correspond with a random traffic accident.
I think Jhai was talking about that sort of mindset, not that casually ignoring safety precautions from time to time is OK.
(Although it's interesting that safety has become such a high priority compared to a few decades ago. The trend has to taper or terminate at some point, I imagine!)
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
It didn't read that way to me, but I hope I was wrong. I agree that there are alternatives to having spare car seats on hand. I don't have any.
You also have to understand that I do know people who take these safety guidelines casually. I have an acquaintance who routinely lets her toddler ride up front with her buckled in with an adult seat belt. I have another who put her 3-year-old in a booster, missing the legal and safety guidelines on both age and weight. I know people who routinely let infants out of car seats because they're crying.
I don't know when safety limits go too far, but I don't think that current guidelines are over the top after looking into it. (And I did when my state changed the law to require all children under the age of 8 to be in a car seat or booster seat.)
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
quote:Originally posted by Christine: It didn't read that way to me, but I hope I was wrong. I agree that there are alternatives to having spare car seats on hand. I don't have any.
You also have to understand that I do know people who take these safety guidelines casually. I have an acquaintance who routinely lets her toddler ride up front with her buckled in with an adult seat belt. I have another who put her 3-year-old in a booster, missing the legal and safety guidelines on both age and weight. I know people who routinely let infants out of car seats because they're crying.
I never said that you should take safety guidelines "casually", nor routinely do unsafe things. If this is your problem:
quote:As soon as you let yourself start thinking this way, it becomes all too easy to make a habit of it.
then never do unsafe things. Personally, I don't have that problem - I'm just willing to truly consider the probabilities & act accordingly. I can do unsafe things on occasion and not "make a habit of it", like many rational adults.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jhai: If this is your problem:
quote:As soon as you let yourself start thinking this way, it becomes all too easy to make a habit of it.
then never do unsafe things. Personally, I don't have that problem - I'm just willing to truly consider the probabilities & act accordingly. I can do unsafe things on occasion and not "make a habit of it", like many rational adults.
Actually no, it's not my big problem. My big problem is the part of my post that you ignored...the part where the one time you disregard safety guidelines may be the wrong time.
And WHY disregard this safety guideline? What is so important that you would weigh the risk and decide it's worth it?
When I'm on the road, I see people disregarding safety guidelines all the time. Someone will be driving 20 miles per hour over the speed limit and cut us off. As my husband slams on the breaks to avoid an accident, I find myself asking, "What so important?"
The odds of getting into an accident on any given outing are low no matter what you do. Even if you go out driving drunk chances are that one time you'll get home ok. But what's so important?
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
The one time you decide to step outside your house tomorrow may be the one time an eagle flying over drops the turtle it found on your head, killing you in the process (this actually happened to an ancient Greek philosopher, as best we can tell). Nevertheless, I don't sweat dying by turtle-induced head trauma, and neither should you - since the probability of it occurring is so low.
Everything in life is dangerous, safety guidelines or no. So all you can do is consider the probabilities of danger from any particular action, and the expected payoff (or payoff distribution or whathaveyou), and then decide whether something is worthwhile or not.
I'm not suggesting you bundle your kid off into a car sans car seat every time you're tired because it's easier that way. All I'm saying is that there are situations where it may be perfectly reasonable to let the child travel in less than ideal arrangements. You (general you) can't wrap children in cotton and protect them from everything, and the current social climate which is pushing that way has gotten way out of hand.
To give another example: I participate in a couple of relatively dangerous activities - rock climbing, skiing, and the like - just because I enjoy doing it. There's a risk there of injury or death, and given the frequency in which I participate, it's far higher than the risk from a child traveling a few miles sans car seat once a year. There's absolutely no reason for me to have these hobbies other than that I enjoy them. Nonetheless, I'm not going to stop doing them, and I wouldn't stop my kid from doing them either - in fact, I'll encourage future kids' participation in such activities, if they enjoy them.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I could not drive myself to the hospital, nor could I call a cab (no money for the cab, doctor instructed me not to drive myself.) In that situation my only other option would be "call an ambulance" and since it wasn't a true emergency I would have been paying on that still.
I'm going to answer other questions posed to me in individual posts now, with quotes. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by School4ever: He is 40 inches tall, 16 inches bum to shoulder. This means that he has not gotten any taller in six months, but he is gearing up to do so. For the past week he has been saying, "Mommy, I am soooo huuuungry, when do we get to eat." All day long. Even five minutes after lunch. Even though he ate his lunch AND his friend's lunch. Sorry, I get frustrated with the constant begging for food.
We have a 97 Ford Taurus Wagon. We need to have room for three seats because we are trying to adopt a sibling group.
Okay. For now, he needs to use that seat as a booster, or you need to buy him a new seat today.
Here are your harnessed seat options for a child with a 16 inch torso. I'm going to list them from cheapest to most expensive, with pros and cons to each. After age 2 most children average about 1 inch of torso growth per year, so take that into account when thinking how much longer they'll last him, but also remember that it's highly individual and that's just a guideline. You know best whether much of his growth seems to happen in his torso or legs, etc. There are a few other options, which I will discuss afterward.
1. Graco Nautilus, $150 (can be found cheaper some places.) Combination seat. Harnesses to 65 lbs., then becomes a high back, then low back booster (and a good one.) Top harness height is 18-18.5 inches (depends on installation.) Pros: becomes a booster after harness is outgrown, 6 year expiration on harness and back but 9 year expiration on low-back part, cheap but works well, easy to install. Cons: Some boys have trouble with the crotch strap not fitting well, and sitting on it is not allowed by this seat. Must be 100% on vehicle seat when installed. Width is 18 inches at base, so can be a problem installing with other seats (though there are ways around this.)
2. Sunshine Kids Radian 65, about $200 (give or take.) Convertible seat. Rear-faces to 35 lbs., forward-faces to 65 lbs. (There is an 80 lb. model but I don't think you need the extra weight.) Harnesses to 17.5/18 inches (depending on install.) Pros: narrowest seat on the market, making it good for 3 across (13.5 inches at base, 17 inches at widest point); could be handed down/used for younger child as it is a convertible; folds for easy storage/carrying/travel; keeps child's center of gravity very low for added crash protection; 8 year rather than 6 year expiration; when rear-facing has ability to rear-facing tether (not an issue now but a consideration when using rear-facing for another child.) Cons: can be a tricky install, though I find with practice it gets easier; directions are not the best on some subjects; heavy, some parents complain of difficulty tightening straps, some children complain about dangling legs because of low seat (but they can solve this by crossing their legs, or you can put a sleeping bag or something else light in the car for them to prop their feet on.)
3. Britax Regent, $230-270. Forward-facing harnessed-only seat. Harnesses to 80 lbs. Top harness slots are 20 inches (highest on the market.) Pros: very comfortable seat for larger children, exceptionally easy to use and install per most parents. Cons: large, wider seat, can make 3 across hard; requires use of top tether after 50 lbs. (so you would have to get your car retrofitted if he still fit in the seat and hit this weight, though that is not a bad idea anyway for reasons I will explain below), not FAA approved (so if you travel by plane you'll have to either check it, which is not recommended, or have a backup plan when you get where you're going), requires use of recline bar so can leave little room in smaller cars between child's legs and front seat.
4. Recaro Como, $250. Convertible seat, rear-faces to 35 lbs., forward-faces to 70. Top harness height is 19 inches. Pros: previously listed pros of convertibles for passing down, comfortable, removable head wings for protection/comfort, adjustable height headrest, I don't THINK this is an exceptionally wide seat but I've never seen one in person. Cons: notorious for narrow shoulder width, meaning many kids can't actually fit in the seat for the entire useful life of the harness height. If your child is built skinny this is less likely to be an issue. Rather heavy for a convertible. Head wings are described by many as "floppy" and by some as "almost useless."
5. Britax Frontier, $280-ish. Combination seat; forward-face harness to 80 lbs. (though your son won't get to 80 lbs. in any of these seats, trust me!) and a good high-back booster. Top harness height is about 18-18.5 inches (depends on installation.) Pros: very comfortable, Britax safety features such as headwings for side-impact protection, makes a good booster, 9 year expiration. Cons: again, rather wide, so not great for three across in many cars, some parents complain about twisty, cheap-seeming harness straps, there have been some quality control issues.
6. Recaro Signo, $290-ish. Convertible seat, rear-faces to 35 lbs., forward-faces to 70. Top harness height is 18 inches. Pros: cushy, comfy, quality seat, previous benefits of convertibles for passing down if desired in a few years, adjustable width and height head wings for side impact protection. Cons: while not as narrow as the Como in the shoulders, rather narrow interior for some kids. Also, it being slightly wider means less room in 3 across situations, though it's definitely not as wide as some of the other seats on this list.
7. SafeGuard Child Seat, $300-$400. Forward-facing only seat harnesses to 65 lbs. with a 19.5 inch top harness height (second highest on the market.) Pros: Very comfortable, infinite-adjust harness means no rethreading ever, everyone I know who has used it says they and their kid love it. Cons: Must be 100% on the seat of the vehicle when installed (a problem in some smaller cars), I've heard seatbelt install can be less than peachy (definite issue for you since you don't have LATCH), while not as wide as the Regent at 19 inches it's pretty wide, and, well, it's frickin' expensive.
I think that's it for harnessed seats that will work for your child's torso height. That said, you have two more options:
-The RideSafer Travel Vest. Available in 2 sizes, I think he would take a Small. It would require installation of a tether anchor but those are available (let me know if you want more info on how.) Provides no side-impact protection but is a good choice for three-across, and if you put him in the middle side-impact protection isn't as important. I don't know the cost and it can be hard to find.
-The EZ-On 86Y Universal Harness. This can be used from 40-186 lbs. and is ideal for use with a lap-only belt in the middle of the car. It basically converts a lap-only belt into a five-point harness. It is used in conjunction with a high-backed booster (any high-backed booster) for small children, to provide optimal protection and proper belt positioning. It is not ideal for use with a lap/shoulder belt because you would have to use a locking clip and can be a bit more difficult because of that, but it is possible. This might be a good solution if you wanted something for after a seat was outgrown. It costs about $70 and comes with a heavy-duty tether anchor and instructions for installing (this must be used after 80 lbs.; until 80 lbs. this harness can be used with either the included heavy-duty anchor or a factory-installed tether anchor.)
About tether anchors: although not all seats REQUIRE their use, it is strongly recommended to improve the performance of the seat (any forward-facing seat) by reducing head excursion. I strongly suggest you get a tether anchor (or two) installed in your car. I can assist you in finding out how to do this if you so desire.
Let me know if you have any questions or want help finding deals on a seat. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by theCrowsWife:
quote:A few questions on her:
-How much does she weigh? -How long is her torso, measured as above? -Does she wiggle around a lot or is she sitting well in her seat? -Where does the belt hit her? -Where do her legs bend?
I'm not certain exactly how much she weighs, but it should be right around 40 lbs or a bit higher. She was 38 lbs in early summer. I guess I should get a scale.
Torso is 15-1/2" long.
She mostly sits quietly, but does wiggle some, I guess.
The belt is the reason why I want to get her a different seat. The low-back seat definitely does not position it as well as her previous seat, and it has a tendency to slide up to her neck. I know that's not good.
Her legs bend right at the edge of the booster seat.
quote:Personally, I do not feel comfortable letting any of my kids out of a harness before 6, because of what I know about development of the hip bones and their ability to distribute forces. But, it's a parental decision. If you feel she sits well in a booster and she has a high-back booster with a lap-shoulder belt that fits her appropriately, that is an appropriate choice for many four year olds.
I am becoming inclined to put her back into a harness seat. It's going to be tough to get one of her sets of grandparents on board with that. It was hard enough getting them to install the car seat correctly in their vehicle. No matter how many times I explained it, they couldn't grasp why locking seat belts were so important. They thought it was good enough that they would lock in a crash. Oh, well, I'll just have to put my foot down and say that they don't take her anywhere unless she's harnessed. She only rides in their vehicle a couple of times a year, anyway.
Okay. I agree with you that she needs either a harnessed seat or a high-back booster. The seats listed above would be appropriate for her as well.
I think one good option for you might be to get the Graco Nautilus or Britax Frontier. They both convert to a booster, so she could use them in a grandparent's car as a booster (something I'm comfortable suggesting if she sits pretty well, just make sure they know the importance of her using it properly and sitting positioned correctly.) Of course you could install it for them and teach her how to buckle herself; I hear the Graco Nautilus is very easy for kids to learn how to use the harness themselves.
The other option would be to buy a harnessed seat for home and have them get a high-backed booster for a backup for her.
In the mean time, most low-backed boosters come with a belt guide. I know the Graco TurboBooster low-back does, if that's the one you happen to have. (Hopefully it is not lost. If you do have the TurboBooster, btw, make sure the screws are in the armrest. That's something most parents aren't aware needs to be done before use.) That will help some, though a high-back is still better because of the additional containment and protection it provides, and a harness is even better. I'm looking for techs, I'll get back to you on that.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
CrowsWife: I'm e-mailing you about a tech in your area. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:When moving my son's car seat (the Safety First 3 stage which you don't seem to like ) to another car one day, we lost the belt to latch it in using the latch system. I've heard different things about the latch system and all indications are that the seat is really just as safe being belted in (which is how we have it now since we lost the latch) but I'm not sure. What do you think about that one?
I will be needing to buy a new car seat soon for my 6-month-old soon. I've decided this time to go with a regular car seat that doesn't convert to a booster...but one that can go forward or backward. Booster seats just aren't that expensive, I noticed recently, so there's really no point in doing the 3-stage. If I can find one that's a reasonable price, I may replace my 3-year-old's at the same time. But I can't afford 2 $300 car seats.
Sorry, missed this earlier!
The lower LATCH anchors are a convenience/ease of use feature. In some cars you will actually get a better install with the seatbelt, in some with the LATCH belts. In either case, after a certain weight you can't use the lower LATCH anchors anyway (varies by brand of car and carseat.) If you have a good install with the seatbelt don't worry about it. Standard advice is "use whichever one gives a better install; if both are equal, use whichever one you prefer to work with." If you really want to be able to use LATCH, you can call or e-mail the manufacturer (they're made by Dorel) and get a replacement LATCH belt.
The top tether is another matter. In cars that have top tether anchors (or can be retrofitted with them), ALL forward-facing seats, whether installed with LATCH or seatbelt, should be tethered. This helps reduce head excursion (how far the child's head travels forward in a crash) and can reduce the risk of spinal and head injuries as a result. Some cars state that there is a weight limit on this top tether as well; however research has been done that shows that tether anchors are unlikely to break or fail even with excessive forces unlikely to be seen in a survivable crash (they either hold or deform; in either case, they do their job.) Many techs I know would advise that you can make a parental decision to choose to use the tether after the vehicle manufacturer's limit because the benefit of doing so outweighs the risk. And some manufacturers do not state a limit or the limit is 80 lbs. (the top restraint weight limit anyway.) I will personally always tether seats even if the manufacturer states a limit lower than the child's weight (I think of those that place a limit, one or two state 50 lbs. as a limit, the others state 80.) However, this is not an issue for you yet if you have your child rear-facing. But it's something to consider for the future.
About the 3-in-1 seats-- they're fine as a convertible seat. They make a cruddy booster for most kids, though. Also, in all the old models, the weight limit is 40 lbs. and the top adjustment slot CAN NOT be used with the harness (it's only a booster setting.) It is not reinforced and can fail in a crash. So that makes it outgrown almost always before a child hits the weight limit. The NEW Alpha Omega Elites (released this Aug./Sept.; currently only available at Babies R Us) harness to 50 lbs. and have usable top slots. (But you have to look to make sure they have the 50 lb. weight limit, many still on the market still have the old rules.) So they're okay if you disregard the booster function and just consider them as a convertible seat. However, they're more expensive than the Evenflo Triumph Advance-- which does the same thing. Their only advantage over the Evenflo Triumph Advance is that they are narrower. So that might make it a better choice for a three-across situation. But other than that, meh. I do like the way the harness adjusts, though. No rethreading means less risk of twisting (though I just untwisted a friend's straps, I do NOT know how they got so twisted!)
Anyway, off that and onto what I would buy in your case: I would probably buy a Safety 1st Avenue (or if you really like the no-rethread harness, the Evenflo Triumph Advance) for the baby and a Graco Nautilus for the 3 year old. The total cost of an Avenue and a Nautilus would be about $230; then you could pass down the Nautilus to the baby when the Avenue is outgrown, and put the older one in a dedicated booster seat. (The cost with a Triumph Advance and Nautilus would be about $285.) But that's just my personal preference, you can of course choose any seats that fit your kids. You could also pass down that 3-in-1 to the baby (or if it's the baby's, just let baby keep using it) as long as it's not expired, and buy a Nautilus for the 3 year old, and then, same deal, when baby outgrows the seat move to the Nautilus and older child to a booster. Any of those seats should allow your child at least 3 years, if not more, giving the three year old time to be harnessed to at least age 6 (unless harness is outgrown by then) which I really consider quite a safe harness age for all but the most wiggly children. They're old enough to understand the rules of how they must sit in a booster, and their hip bones are large and developed enough to handle the added strain from a 3-point rather than 5-point restraint. At that point I'm comfortable with putting them in charge of their safety in the car (which is basically what you do when you put a child in a booster-- when you have them in a harness, you are responsible for how they are restrained, but when you move to a booster, you're putting the child in charge of his own positioning, and trusting that he can stay in place enough for the seatbelt to do its job in a crash.)
[ December 12, 2008, 12:35 AM: Message edited by: ketchupqueen ]
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Okay. I agree with you that she needs either a harnessed seat or a high-back booster. The seats listed above would be appropriate for her as well.
I think one good option for you might be to get the Graco Nautilus or Britax Frontier. They both convert to a booster, so she could use them in a grandparent's car as a booster (something I'm comfortable suggesting if she sits pretty well, just make sure they know the importance of her using it properly and sitting positioned correctly.) Of course you could install it for them and teach her how to buckle herself; I hear the Graco Nautilus is very easy for kids to learn how to use the harness themselves.
The other option would be to buy a harnessed seat for home and have them get a high-backed booster for a backup for her.
In the mean time, most low-backed boosters come with a belt guide. I know the Graco TurboBooster low-back does, if that's the one you happen to have. (Hopefully it is not lost. If you do have the TurboBooster, btw, make sure the screws are in the armrest. That's something most parents aren't aware needs to be done before use.) That will help some, though a high-back is still better because of the additional containment and protection it provides, and a harness is even better. I'm looking for techs, I'll get back to you on that.
I don't have the TurboBooster, I have the Cosco Ambassador, which, as I said, I don't like, at least for her size. There's a comment on that page of someone using it with her 25 month old. *shudder*
Her grandparents already have a convertible car seat/high backed booster that they got for her a few years ago. I doubt I can get them to put the harness back in, but since she rides with them so infrequently, I guess that's ok.
The booster seats that you mentioned, can they be put into airplane seats? I will never check a car seat again after what happened to my old one.
I got your email and responded, thanks .
--Mel
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
All the seats listed are FAA approved except the Britax Regent. However some of them may not fit on some smaller airplanes' seats, or older planes with armrests that don't fold up. Before you fly you can check what plane you will be on and find out the dimensions of the seats, which will help you determine that. If a seat won't fit, there are options that I will be happy to enumerate for anyone who's ever in that position.
I would check the fit on anything they're using for her before you let her ride in it. It sounds like you'll have to teach her how to be safe in their car since they're not very conscious of it. A high backed booster is outgrown the same way as a convertible harnessed seat, kind of-- when the tops of her ears go above the back of the booster's tallest setting (or in some cases, the seat back), or the shoulder guides are below her shoulders and unable to properly position the belt.
Bummer, the Ambassador does not come with a belt guide AFAIK.
I'll look into the tech thing further for you. Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
Thanks for the advice! Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: I want to reiterate that using a harness outgrown by height is extremely dangerous . . . .
That would not only be extremely dangerous, but illegal in my state (don't know about yours, but if your kids were my kids' age, probably would be.) . . . .
Extremely: likely to cause extreme harm in a crash. Google "seatbelt syndrome pics" if you want graphic information on that.
KQ, While i greatly appreciate your enthusiasm for protecting your children I think you've blown this way way out of perspective. Taking your child in the car even properly restrained is dangerous. By your definition "likely to cause extreme harm in a crash", taking your child anywhere in a car even if they are in a proper child seat is extremely dangerous.
I come from a generation where there were no child safety seats. We rolled around in the back of the station wagon, jumped around while the car was moving, climbed back and forth over the seats and did all kinds of things that would be considered reckless by today's standards. The point is that better than 99.9% of us not only survived but never suffered a serious injury in an automobile.
Were we lucky? That depends on how you define luck. We didn't beat the odds. Certainly there were those who were unlucky and were killed or seriously injured in automobile accidents. Certainly parents should take reasonable efforts to reduce that risk.
I think what it comes down to is what constitutes "reasonable" efforts?
Consider that according to safety studies, properly used child safety seats increase your child's chances of surviving a serious accident by 71%. That's significant but you need to put that in context. That means that taking your child in a car unrestrained is about 3.5 times more dangerous than taking them in a car in a properly used car seat.
Assuming that the risk is proportional to the number of miles you drive, a parent who makes 10 five miles trips per week with children in properly used safety seats is engaging in more dangerous behavior than the parent who makes 1 five mile trip per week with unrestrained children. Do you consider people who drive with their children in car seats 3 to 4 times as much as you do to be doing something "extremely dangerous". Can you imagine circumstances under which you would be willing to drive 3 to 4 times as much as you do now?
You have 3 back up child seats for your children. If those seats cost you $150 each, you've spent $450 dollars. You mentioned a case in which you needed those seats when your mother had to take you to the hospital. By your definition, it was "extremely dangerous" for you to take your children to the hospital with you. It would have been much safer to have your mother stay home with the children and take a cab to the hospital. If you hadn't spent the $450 on backup child seats -- you could have spent a small portion of it on a cab and kept your children safer.
Now I'm not suggesting you were reckless in taking your children to the hospital with you or even that you should spend your money on cabs and baby sitters instead of child seats. I am just trying to put the risk in perspective. Nothing in life is without risk and we all make choices about what risks are worth it. But to make those decisions rationally, we need to clearly understand how great those risks really are so that we can weight the costs and benefits reasonably. When you chose to spend money on backup child seats, you chose not to spend that money on anything else including things like taking a cab to the hospital so that you could leave your children safely at home.
I am sure that you can imagine a situation, say someone shooting at you, in which you'd be willing to risk putting your child in a car without properly buckling them in. The question is where you draw the line.
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Before you fly you can check what plane you will be on and find out the dimensions of the seats, which will help you determine that. If a seat won't fit, there are options that I will be happy to enumerate for anyone who's ever in that position.
Would you mind telling me those options? I plan to fly to visit my dad in a few months, so it could be an issue. It will be from Pennsylvania to Utah, so the plane will probably be a big one, but you never know.
quote:t sounds like you'll have to teach her how to be safe in their car since they're not very conscious of it.
Hmm. I know she should sit still and not mess with the seat belt (things she's already pretty good with), but is there anything else?
--Mel
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
The Rabbit: Most of those seats are not actual back up seats, most did not cost that much, and according to at least 2 studies, 3 in 4 car seats (or thereabouts) are used incorrectly, and many, many children are injured or killed because they are improperly restrained in a crash every year. Most crashes that happen are at relatively low speeds and children can be injured or killed even in a "minor" crash. To me, that says that it is very important to 1) have children in a seat appropriate to their age every time they are in a car, barring an emergency, and to use the seat according to manufacturer's instructions. Many states have laws that reflect this same desire, at least for very young children. I've already admitted that I love carseats and am a little geeky about it. I don't expect anyone else to have as many carseats as I do. I do expect others to at the very least follow the law in regards to properly restraining their child, and hopefully follow best practice.
I really didn't want this to become a debate since this is a thread entitled "questions" and I am hopeful that it will remain a thread where people can ask for advice and get their questions answered. Maybe we can start a new thread if we're going to debate? Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by theCrowsWife:
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Before you fly you can check what plane you will be on and find out the dimensions of the seats, which will help you determine that. If a seat won't fit, there are options that I will be happy to enumerate for anyone who's ever in that position.
Would you mind telling me those options? I plan to fly to visit my dad in a few months, so it could be an issue. It will be from Pennsylvania to Utah, so the plane will probably be a big one, but you never know.
quote:t sounds like you'll have to teach her how to be safe in their car since they're not very conscious of it.
Hmm. I know she should sit still and not mess with the seat belt (things she's already pretty good with), but is there anything else?
--Mel
There are a few options and it really depends mostly on whether you're going to have a seat where you're going that you trust.
Since you're going to see your dad, will he have a booster for her? If so, and he's picking you up, he can bring it to the airport. That's the easiest one.
The second option (if he doesn't have one, or you don't know if his will fit her) is to use a booster while you're there, and to pack it with you on the plane (since a low back without a guide doesn't fit her well, you're talking either a low-back with a guide, or a high-back booster that comes apart or folds compactly to be stowed in the overhead compartments-- such as the Graco TurboBooster high back version or the Compass Folding Booster.) The Nautilus also gives you this option if you disassemble it (but you'll have to be familiar with how to disassemble and assemble it before you go; I'd recommend practicing so you can do it quickly.)
Another option, since you'd be prepared ahead of time, is to ship the carseat to your destination overnight (this obviously only works if you'll not be needing the carseat in the mean time.)
And, lastly, you can, being prepared, have a box and packing materials to fit the carseat and pack it to be checked. As you have learned, gate-checking the seat or checking it unboxed does not always result in the seat showing up in perfect condition. But, if you are prepared with packing materials, you can check it with reasonable confidence that being well packed, it will be protected.
If you want her to use a harness on the plane (for non-wiggling purposes as well as crash protection) and do not bring a harnessed seat/harnessed seat won't fit, an option is to buy or rent a CARES harness. They're expensive and I wouldn't buy one myself-- but often on Craigslist or eBay people will rent them out (at least so I've heard) and that is a much more affordable option.
To put your mind at ease, though, most of those seats have been used on most modern airplanes by aquaintances with no problems fitting. The Radian will fit on any plane out there; they were practically designed for it.
If you have trouble installing a harnessed seat on a plane because of how the buckle falls, you can ask for a seatbelt extender. They are like the thing the stewardess uses to demonstrate seatbelt function, and they buckle into the regular seatbelt and you adjust as needed, which lets you get buckles fully into or fully out of the beltpath or whatever else is the problem.
As for her being safe, yes, she needs to learn how to sit still and she also needs to know where the belt needs to go on her and how tight it needs to be. If she learns how a belt is supposed to sit she can tell them when it's not sitting right. If you have her in a harness and use it while she's with them, she should learn that the straps must not be twisted and how tight the harness should be. Many four year olds can buckle themselves in many seats, so that's something she can learn how to do too if necessary.
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
I did the first option last time, but my dad has the same booster seat that I now have. It seemed to fit her much better in his vehicle, with his seatbelts, but I don't really trust my memory on this.
I was leaning towards the Nautilus anyway, but knowing that it can come apart and be folded makes me pretty certain that's the one I'll get. My daughter has sat very well on the plane every time we've flown, so I'm not particularly concerned about having her in a harness. I just want to keep the seat safe from the baggage handlers, and that should be no problem since it comes apart and folds.
My husband witnessed a rollover accident today (thankfully the woman was not badly hurt), so he's suddenly very on board with the idea of putting our daughter back in a harness. He was a little bit skeptical before. So I plan to order her new seat this weekend.
--Mel
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
It doesn't actually fold, but what it does do is come apart. You'd have to take the harness out and then take the back off, but with that done it should fit in an overhead bin. So the best thing to do would be to plan to use it on the plane-- but practice disassembling and reassembling it before the trip so you'd know you could break it down to go in the bins if you had to.
I will e-mail you about the pricing. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by JennaDean: KQ, since this has come up, there's something I've been meaning to ask you. My son is 6 (like, nearly 7), but he's tiny. He's just under 40 pounds. He's still in his booster seat with the 5-point harness, but I'm not sure whether to take off the harness and switch him to the belt-booster yet. He's tall enough, but doesn't weigh enough (the seat supposedly works with the harness up to 40 pounds). What is the danger in using the harness longer? Or is there a benefit to keeping him IN the harness even though he's taller than your average toddler?
Does this even make sense?
First of all, you need to determine whether he still fits the harness by height. A harness is outgrown forward-facing when one of the following 3 things occurs:
1. The weight limit is exceeded. 2. The child's shoulders are over the top harness slot. 3. The tip of the child's ears go above the shell of the seat.
Obviously he hasn't exceeded the weight limit yet. Is he within the other limitations? If so, he still fits by height. If not, he must move out of that seat, and either get a taller harnessed seat, or switch to a booster.
If the seat is not expired and he still fits by height and weight, there are some safety benefits to keeping him harnessed, and there is no danger. However, at almost 7, the benefits to a harness over a booster are small enough that if he is asking to sit in a booster a high backed booster is an appropriate choice IF he fits appropriately. (If he's not asking, I'd keep him harnessed; I feel more secure knowing my kids are kept in position by the harness and I don't have to trust them to sit properly in a booster. However it depends on your situation. I find harnesses easier especially in a 3-across situation because no one's hand gets mashed trying to buckle a booster; however if you carpool a booster may be an easier choice for that. In either case he will have to stop using the harness in a 40 lb. seat when he reaches 40 lbs. fully clothed.)
To fit appropriately in a booster the following conditions must be met:
1. The child must meet the minimum age and weight guidelines set by the manufacturer (most manufacturers set a U.S. minimum guideline of either 30 or 40 lbs., and at 7 he is an appropriate age for a booster.)
2. The child has not outgrown the booster in question (more on that below.)
3. The shoulder belt must be positioned on the child touching the chest, crossing in the middle of the shoulder, between the neck and the arm.
4. The lap belt must be held down low on the child, away from the abdomen and touching the thighs instead.
5. The child must have the ability to sit properly the entire trip, not leaning forward, turning around, or otherwise moving out of position. This includes while sleeping if the child falls asleep in the car.
A high-backed booster should be used instead of a low-backed booster as long as possible, because it provides extra side-impact protection and helps keep a sleeping child in position. While learning how to ride in a booster you may want to lock your child's shoulder belt if you have switchable locking belts, because it will help keep him from leaning forward and remind him to sit properly.
A note on outgrowing high-backed boosters: a high-backed booster seat is outgrown when the child's shoulder goes above the top belt guide/belt guide setting or the child's ears go above the top of the seat's shell. (A low-backed booster is outgrown when the child's ears go above the top of the headrest or vehicle seat back. Of note, some high-backed boosters/combination seats are outgrown at the same time even if the child's ears are not above the shell, because they are not reinforced and require vehicle support. In the U.S. these seats are made by the Dorel family-- Eddie Bauer, Cosco, Maxi-Cosi, Safety 1st, and Alpha Sport/Alpha Elite brands all fall under this parent company and all have this rule.)
One thing to be very careful about is fit. Combination seats (including the 3-in-1 seats) do not usually make very good boosters; they tend to position the belt incorrectly. (There are a few exceptions-- the Graco Nautilus, Britax Frontier, and Evenflo Symphony have all been reported to make decent boosters, although fit should still be checked individually on each child before using one as such.) Here are some reviews showing pictures of why they do not fit correctly as boosters for most children:
The series isn't complete yet but I'm sure she'll eventually get to the other Cosco/Eddie Bauer seats... The bottom line is you have to check the fit on your child before you put him in it as a booster. If it does not position the belt correctly, or if it is outgrown (top of ears over the top) you need to get a different booster. Again, a high-back booster provides many safety benefits over a low-backed booster, so I would recommend a high-back booster, but you need to try him in it before buying it (or buy online from someone who offers return shipping insurance) so that he winds up in one that positions the belt correctly for him (since this is different for each kid.) Some boosters don't seem to position the belt right on most kids, but that's no guarantee that they won't fit YOUR kid, or that your kid will fit in one that fits most kids. Build is so individual it has to be assessed individually. (For instance, the Evenflo Big Kid Deluxe booster is cited often as one that doesn't fit most kids; however I have seen a few who it fit really well.)
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: There are currently no seats that rear- and forward-face harness AND make a good booster. There are seats that make a good forward-facing harness and booster, and there are seats that claim to do all three-- but the ones that claim to do all three do not actually make a good booster. So eventually you will have to buy another seat, be it combo seat and booster. Luckily there are now some great, inexpensive combo seats on the market. And it will be years before you will have to buy one in any case-- at least 2 years at the least.
In your price range, here are my recommendations (cheapest to most expensive):
-Safety 1st Avenue. This seat only harnesses to 40 lbs. BUT has a very tall shell. It lasts most kids all the way to 40 lbs., even tall skinny ones. My 35 lb., long-torsoed daughters both still fit in it by height and even have room to grow. Rear faces to 35 lbs. (highest limit currently on the U.S. market.) Sometimes needs a chunk of pool noodle or rolled towel to achieve good rear-facing install/recline. About $75-90 depending on store, sales, coupons, etc. (I'm not sure but this seat MAY have an 8 year expiration instead of 6 year. If so it would be an excellent candidate for passing down to a younger sib if stored and cleaned properly and not crashed in that time.)
-Evenflo Triumph Advance. Has a fairly tall shell, infinite adjusting harness (never have to re-thread it), rear-faces to 35 lbs. and forward-faces to 50. Gets many kids to an acceptable booster age. Sometimes the adjustment knobs hit the seatback while rear-facing in cars with very contoured seats (don't know if your car has those, never seen one.) About $120 to $160 depending on sales and on model (regular or deluxe, etc.; there's no specs difference, just make sure it's the ADVANCE, not the regular Triumph.)
-First Years True Fit. This seat has a detachable top portion that you don't have to use until 22 lbs. or bottom part is outgrown by height. When the top part is attached, it has the tallest seat back of any seat currently on the market, great for both rear-facing and forward-facing kids until they don't need to be. Rear-facing harnesses to 35 lbs., forward-faces to 65, and will get most kids to a safe booster age. Between $165 and $200.
The Avenue is available at Sears and K-Mart as well as online; the other two are available at many major retailers including most Targets, if you want to look at them in person.
If you'd like help finding deals on the one you choose, e-mail me, my carseat boards usually keep track of what's the best buy on all these seats on a regular basis.
My budget has gone up to around 200, a bit over is okay. kq, are your recommendations the same?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
The only change I would make to the list are the following things:
-I have found out that the True Fits were stopped being manufactured in May or so of last year to make way for redesigned models to be released this March or so (they want to sell out all/most of the old inventory before they release the new ones, which are currently in production) so be aware that you will have lost probably a year or so of life on the seat if you buy that one, though you will probably be able to find a great deal (they have a 7 year life, unlike most seats which expire after 6, so it's not a bad tradeoff to make, IMO.)
-Add the Sunshine Kids Radian 65, though you may want to try to figure out whether it will install well in your car BEFORE buying, or buy from a store that offers return insurance if you choose this one, because some people have install issues in some cars once you go forward-facing. I can help with finding information on either of those subjects if you like the seat and need the information. Pros: steel frame, 8 year expiration, folds for easy carrying, lasts a long time, narrow to allow for other passengers (or someday maybe car seats.) Allows rear-facing tethering for additional stability in side- and rear-impact crashes (most seats don't.) Cons: difficult install in some cars (impossible in a few), takes up a lot of room rear-facing (though sometimes it will fit in between the 2 front seats, which makes that a non-issue.) RF to 35 lbs., FF to 65, 17 inch top slots but is the only seat that allows use past the top slots until the ears are even with the top (usually about another inch.)
-Also add the Britax Marathon. RF to 35, FF to 65 lbs., 16.5 or 17 inch top slots. It will run you about $230 once the sale starts (the twice yearly Britax sale will start on Feb. 2 or 5, I can't remember which, although there's a store that will offer these prices now if you need them.) The Marathon is very easy to install, a parent favorite for ease of use, allows rear-facing tethering, and there's a thriving resale market in Marathon covers (original equipment approved by the manufacturer, not aftermarket covers, which are a no-no) so if you ruin a cover or get bored you can easily change it up. High resale value, even if you use all the way to the expiration date you will be able to re-sell the cover (covers don't expire) and get at least $30 (often much more, depending on what pattern you get) for the cover to put toward your next seat.
Both the Marathon and the Radian get many kids to a safe booster age, although if they don't, there are higher-slotted and even higher-weight combo seats available to do the job if necessary.
Oh, and I checked; the Avenue does have an 8 year expiration.
ETA: checked, and the Britax sale is neither the 2nd nor the 5th, but starts the 1st and will run through the 10th.
[ January 31, 2009, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: ketchupqueen ]
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
We adore John's Radian and are planning to get one for Charles this spring. Mom & Dad are also considering replacing the Graco seat that they have with a Radian because it's so much easier to get the kid in and out of.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
dkw, you might want to check out the new Radian XT.
It's the Radian, but with side-impact protection.
I just bought one for my cousin's kid. I really really wish I could justify replacing our Radians (we have 4, 3 in daily use-- I'd like to do at least the 2 on the outside seats) with XTs... But I can't. Yet. Especially considering I just got killer deals on two SafeGuard Child Seats.
Anyway, if you're going to want an XT any time soon you'll have to order quickly, though. They're fast selling out; SKJP didn't make enough on the initial run and they apparently shipped to some stores before others, and now some stores won't get theirs in (and no one will get another shipment) until April, because they didn't make enough to meet the demand (I guess they didn't realize how many people in the CPS community have been saying, "I need a narrow seat and I would buy a Radian if only it had side impact protection...")
The other seats have also been redesigned with some of the new features of the XT.
They're a little more expensive but I think worth it (new MSRP is 220 for the 65, 250 for the 80, and 280 for the XT, I believe.) And they come in cool colors for both boys and girls-- besides 2 kinds of grey (mesh and plush) they come in red and pink! (If you can wait until April but want them I also have a code to a store that's doing pre-orders but has none in stock right now for 15% off.)
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
Thanks, kq.
I thought of something else... we have a chicco infant seat currently, and the back of the carseat hits the back of the front passenger seat. There doesn't seem to be a lot of room. Some of those convertible seats seem pretty deep.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by Katarain: Thanks, kq.
I thought of something else... we have a chicco infant seat currently, and the back of the carseat hits the back of the front passenger seat. There doesn't seem to be a lot of room. Some of those convertible seats seem pretty deep.
Do you have the seat in front fully upright? That can really create a lot of room, IME.
Because a convertible can be installed more upright than an infant seat when not used with a newborn who needs the full 45 degrees (as upright as 30 degrees is safe, except the True Fit which allows up to 35 degrees) most convertibles end up taking up about the same amount of room as an infant seat or even less. So if you can get the Keyfit in there (which is not a super-small infant seat either) you definitely have room for even the big convertibles, as long as your child doesn't have low muscle tone or something that prevents sitting more upright. I usually put the seat more upright starting at 5 or 6 months. At 9 months, barring medical conditions, you should be fine.
While SKJP does allow a more upright installation, because of the way the base on the Radian works, it's unlikely you'll be able to get one to get the space you need. So that probably rules out the Radian.
In any case, most manufacturers allow their seats to touch the seat in front as long as the car allows it (I assume you've checked your manual to make sure it's not disallowed in the position you're using.)
Evenflo is the only manufacturer that does NOT allow this in any of their seats. So that would rule out the Triumph Advance from the list.
The Avenue, Marathon, and True Fit can all touch the seat in front and be installed in the space of an infant carrier or less.
(Notes though: many parents don't like to have the Avenue as fully upright as it can go, because the harness adjuster tends to get lost. Ditto the True Fit. Though some parents don't have a problem with it; it seems to depend on the contours of your vehicle seat. The True Fit requires space between it and the vehicle seat when used without the top part of the shell; it may touch when the top part of the shell is on. At 22 lbs. or when the child's head is less than 1 inch from the top of the bottom part the top part has to be put on anyway, so that's not really a big deal as far as caveats go.)
My personal preference between the 3 seats, if I were choosing today, would be the True Fit. I feel it's the best value of the three as far as functionality/price balance. But, do check them all out. The Avenue is at Sears and KMart only, I think. Babies R Us will allow you to check their floor models out in your car to see how they install and most Babies R Us stores have both the True Fit and the Marathon. For the heck of it they should also have the Evenflo Triumph Advance and you could see if you can get a decent install on that without touching the seat in front. And, they have the NEW model Alpha Omega Elite/Eddie Bauer 3-in-1 (which now has usable top slots and harnesses to 50 lbs., so if you really like it it's a decent seat, but I think it's overpriced for what it is, and it is still an awful booster, and if it's used in a car with low seat backs, it's outgrown when the child's ears go over the top of the vehicle seat back, not the car seat, which could mean it's outgrown sooner in some cars. Oh, and it is an absolute BEAR to install, especially with the base on, and the rules about using and not using the base can be confusing. For those reasons I didn't put it on my recommendations list.)
I plan to bring my next baby home in a True Fit (though I want the new model coming out with an anti-rebound bar) unless a better convertible comes out before then in the same price range.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
Well, ketchupqueen, I got wooed in the store by another car seat, and now I'm having second thoughts--did I just spend a boatload of money for nothing??
I was all set to buy the Evenflo Triumph Advance at Baby's R Us, when I asked the salesman if I was missing out on anything by not considering the other models there. He pointed out the Britax seats and told me how they are tested beyond Government standards and are the safest seats out there, with their side-impact protection and the bases that crumple during an accident to transfer the impact away from the baby's seat. Well, I REALLY liked that, and I thought would the $100+ I would save really mean anything to me if I were ever in an accident with my precious baby?
I deliberated for a while, then I decided to get the seat. I got the most expensive one because it was the only one with the latch system--the Britax Boulevard. It's still in the box in my livingroom. (We haven't gone anywhere yet.) I was disappointed when I realized that it will not work as a booster later--I think it should for the money it cost.
So, are my fears unfounded? Is my daughter just as safe in another seat, such as the Evenflo Triumph Advance? I'm willing to accept the higher cost if in return I am actually getting a safer ride for my girl.
What say you?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
How much WOULD a little extra safety cost? I mean, if you could keep your kid completely safe from harm in a seat costing $5,000, would you do it?
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
No. I couldn't. And I'd have to think about the other cost to her having that much safety. Is that $5,000 for a bubble and bubble tunnel system? Seems like $5000 would be extreme. That much safety would be a detriment to her development.
But I don't know...is this really the same thing? If we're in a side-impact collision, I think it is conceivable that extra protection against a side-impact collision could make a big difference. I don't really know what a seat without a crump-able base would do--but if those other seats are rated safe, then they can't be that bad.
I'm really trying to figure out what you mean by your comment. Are you trying to point out that safe is safe and it's ridiculous or extreme to overspend? OR are you saying that it's important to be as safe as possible so what's another $100? OR are you trying to ridicule me for going overboard? I am perplexed.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by Katarain: Well, ketchupqueen, I got wooed in the store by another car seat, and now I'm having second thoughts--did I just spend a boatload of money for nothing??
I was all set to buy the Evenflo Triumph Advance at Baby's R Us, when I asked the salesman if I was missing out on anything by not considering the other models there. He pointed out the Britax seats and told me how they are tested beyond Government standards and are the safest seats out there, with their side-impact protection and the bases that crumple during an accident to transfer the impact away from the baby's seat. Well, I REALLY liked that, and I thought would the $100+ I would save really mean anything to me if I were ever in an accident with my precious baby?
I deliberated for a while, then I decided to get the seat. I got the most expensive one because it was the only one with the latch system--the Britax Boulevard. It's still in the box in my livingroom. (We haven't gone anywhere yet.) I was disappointed when I realized that it will not work as a booster later--I think it should for the money it cost.
So, are my fears unfounded? Is my daughter just as safe in another seat, such as the Evenflo Triumph Advance? I'm willing to accept the higher cost if in return I am actually getting a safer ride for my girl.
What say you?
I think it's a very safe seat and a good choice. However a few points:
-All seats on the market offer the LATCH system.
-All Britax convertibles and the Sunshine Kids Radian seats offer rear-facing tethering, not just the Boulevard.
-All car seats are designed to absorb energy in a crash and disperse it away from the child. That's a major part of how they operate. Do some do it better? Probably. But they don't publish their results so we don't know. Which brings me to
-While Britax claims higher testing standards, they don't publish their results. Sunshine Kids Juvenile Products is the only company that does that, and so we don't know how Britax really does on these tests, or what their side-impact testing consists of. There is no federal standard for side impact testing; a company could hit a seat with a sledgehammer and call it "side impact testing." (I don't think they DO but the fact remains they don't tell us what they do or don't do and account for and what numbers they consider acceptable and what they get.)
-There is no proven benefit to head wings in a side-impact or any other crash to a rear-facing child. Rear-facing is in and of itself so much safer and containment so good in any rear-facing seat, especially a rear-facing tethered one, that the benefit of the head wings is probably negligable until the child is forward-facing. Rear-facing as long as possible provides more protection than foam or head wings ever could.
-That said, the Boulevard's head wings do seem well-designed to protect and contain the head of an older, forward-facing child in a side-impact or oblique crash. So looking ahead, it's a good investment for when your child outgrows the seat rear-facing, and in the meantime can provide additional comfort. However
-You are probably still not going to be able to make it to 5 or 6 (my preferred age for a booster) in the Boulevard, though you might. It has slightly lower top slots than a Marathon, their other popular model. By the time you're ready to switch to a combo seat, there will be new seats on the market which may do what the Boulevard does even better.
So in the end it wasn't a BAD purchase but not one I'm sure I'd make for use only by a rear-facing child at this time. And btw, I personally never ask the BRU salespeople for advice on car seats, they are prone to giving some really bad advice (unless they are techs) and/or going for the big sale (what they seem to have done with you.)
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
Thanks so much for your advice! I've felt pretty iffy after making the purchase. I just may return and get another type.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Either way, the safest thing you can do is keep your child rear-facing to the limits of the seat. There are actually seats that accomodate that a lot longer than the Boulevard (such as the First Years True Fit and the Sunshine Kids Radian) and for less money.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
Yes, I definitely want her rear-facing as long as possible. I thought 35 pounds was the highest rear-facing limit you could get in the US.
ETA: Oh, I forgot that it's not all about the weight but the height of the back. Ooops. There's a lot to remember with seats, I don't know how you do it! (But I'm glad you do.)
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Yes, it's about the back height. Although I know some people who have made a parental decision to use an EU-certified 55 lbs. rear-facing seat in the US despite its illegality... I may have entertained that thought at times myself... *looks innocent*
Posted by lobo (Member # 1761) on :
Why would it be illegal? That seems stupid. Over-regulation blows...
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
kq, we're wondering what to do with our gargantuan son. Pretty soon we'll need new car seats, as we're borrowing a couple of Britax Roundabouts from my wife's cousin, and they will need to be returned eventually because the cousin has a new 3-month-old.
So our son moved into the rear-facing convertible basically as soon as his head stability was good. He's currently 10-months-old, and at his 9-and-a-half-month checkup he was 32 inches and 22.5 pounds (he's closer to 22 pounds right now as he lost some weight due to a stomach bug he had last week).
He's in the top shoulder straps of the Britax now, though I don't think he's too close to the size limit yet (but all it takes is one growth spurt...). Are there convertible seats that can keep him rear-facing for as long as possible at his size? He obviously needs to remain rear-facing until a his first birthday, as a minimum.
-Bok
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Bok,
The Roundabout is actually one of the smaller convertibles on the market.
The shoulder straps aren't an issue rear-facing because they should always be at or below the shoulders rear-facing, so it's okay to go over. However, you're right that to remain rear-facing to the limits (and at that weight you have a LONG TIME before you will have to turn him due to weight-- the bare minimum recommended is 2 years and 30 lbs. but if you can get him to 3 rear-facing, or when he hits 35 lbs., that's even better) you will need a bigger seat.
The two seats with the tallest shells on the market are the Sunshine Kids Radian seats (at his size I'm betting you won't need the extra weight of the 80 and the XT head protection only really comes into play when forward-facing, so I'd recommend the 65 as most cost-effective) or the First Years True Fit (they are coming out with a new one in a few months that will have an anti-rebound bar if that is something you would be interested in.) If you can tell me your budget for the seat(s) and whether you need one or two, I can give you more specific recommendations for ones that will last a good long time for you, depending on what you want. Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
quote:He's currently 10-months-old, and at his 9-and-a-half-month checkup he was 32 inches and 22.5 pounds
Wow, that IS huge. My two-year-old isn't much bigger than that. I think she's about 25 pounds now.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
My not-quite 8 month old is that big. >.<
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
My ten month old GIRL was BIGGER than that at 9 months. I do have some experience with large children. And, so much of it is in her torso that she's above the fourth slots on her Radian. She wears a size 2T top (and 18 month pants...)
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I just wanted to let anyone in the car seat market know that the Recaro Como is on Woot for $99.99 plus $5 shipping right now... I couldn't decide what color so I got 3 (2 to re-sell once I decide...)
(No you don't want to know what I did to get KPC to agree to that.)
Posted by Mama Squirrel (Member # 4155) on :
Is $190 a good price for the Radian 65? That is the price at Amazon.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
It's a few dollars less than the price most people have them for right now, but a few other stores have it too. Shipping should be free but you'll pay tax. And you may get an older date of manufacture (there was a redesign so you probably would be better off with a newer one.)
Hipmonkey.com has the same price, free ship, no tax (they benefit a nonprofit) and they have high turnover so you're more likely to get a newer seat with a longer usable life. And if you want I can probably find you a discount code to get a few dollars off that price.
Posted by Mama Squirrel (Member # 4155) on :
I never buy anything on Amazon that doesn't have free shipping. I've never paid tax on Amazon either, but I guess that could depend on where it ships from.
That is a good point about the turnover. Thanks for the other website. I need to wait a few more days until our credit card gets to the next billing cycle.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Code HIPMONKEY will give you 5% off, so it would bring your total down to $180.49. Posted by Mama Squirrel (Member # 4155) on :
From what I can see the height limit on the 65 and 80 are the same. It doesn't seem reasonable for us to get the 80 since our kids are so skinny they will go over the height limit long before they hit 65 lbs. Now I have to check and see how tall Mooselet is again.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
That is absolutely correct. The 65, 80, and XT all have the same shell and slot height. All but the chunkiest, shortest-torsoed kids will outgrow even the 65 by height slightly before weight. It's only that tiny subset (or girls who want Princess covers! or parents who want SuperCool covers) who need the 80. I mean, if you find the 80 for around the same price as the 65, might be worth it to get the pillows, but they are sold separately as well and usually come to about $20 with shipping ($17 plus shipping, sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less.) And parents of kids older than newborn-ish age usually don't find they need the pillows anyway.
The most important measurement in whether kids will fit a seat, other than weight, is seated torso height (measure sitting cross-legged against a wall, make a mark at top of shoulders, measure from there to floor.)
Posted by Mama Squirrel (Member # 4155) on :
Do you know if any parts of car seats are recycleable (is that a word?)? I hate just throwing away expired car seats.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Yes, they are, but it can be hard to find a program.
Call your local recycle center and see if they accept them. If they don't, google "car seat recycling" + your city or county to see if someone has started an independent recycling program near you.
I'm lucky, our local center will accept them if we remove all fabric and foam parts.
Good luck finding one. If you can't find one make sure you smash them up really well so no one is tempted to use them. I don't know what kind of seats you have but covers don't expire and some of the covers have a rather thriving resale market if they are in good condition.
Posted by DC Morphis (Member # 11929) on :
KQ- You are most certainly "geeky" when it comes to car seats! My wife and I get that way about our kid's safety, and make sure to follow all guidlines and regulations to the "T". After all, we have to put our kids in the car, and in their seats because of how young they are, so what's so difficult about snapping them securely in according to the manual? I never understood how some parents can allow their kids to sit in their seats either unbuckled, or with loose straps. That's a potential cost that will NEVER be beat by the benefit.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Yes, I do sometimes wonder what is difficult about reading the manual and following directions. But then I read some survey saying that a large percentage of the population are functionally illiterate, and another large percentage are unable to read above about a fifth-grade level. And, well, car seat manuals can be confusing even for those of us who are geeky about it! So that gives me some perspective.
It's nice to be somewhere like Hatrack where everyone is literate and wants to do the best they can for their kids. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Just wanted to let anyone who has a child that age and is considering/using one of these seats know that we're up to part IX on the Combo Seat as Booster Review Series. I think this is valuable information for someone who is considering buying a forward-facing harness/booster combo seat.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Guess what? I'm taking the CPST certification course in May!
I know I'm going to be one of those techs who carries a seat check form and locking clip with me at all times. So if you ever need an inspection at a Hatrack gathering where I'm in attendance I'll be able to help you.
I guess this doesn't really fit this thread but I'm very excited and didn't know a better place to post it but wanted to share anyway. Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
Congrats kq!! I know this is something you've really been wanting to do and I'm so excited that you're getting to do it! Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
Oh, kq, I need some help. I tried installing the Evenflo Triumph Advance today and ran into problems. I wanted to put it in the side back seat, so that there'd be plenty of room between it and my daughter's seat, but my car has very wide seat cushions, much wider than the car seat. No matter how tight I got the seat belt, the car seat still moved several inches back and forth along the belt. I was able to get it tightly installed in the center position, but it is right up against my daughter's car seat now. Is that a problem? Are there any tips or tricks to make it fit better in the side seat? Or do I need to look into getting a different seat?
Oh, I'm installing it rear-facing. That's probably important to know. I had a different car when my daughter was rear-facing, so I didn't realize this car would be so difficult.
--Mel
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
*bump*
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Sorry I didn't see that!
First of all, it's fine to have the seats touching, no safety concern, as long as they are "independently tight." To check this, you should put one seat in, check it, put the other seat in, uninstall the first seat, and check the second without any more adjustments. If the seats each move 1 inch or less independently of the other, you have a good install and they are independently tight. What is not acceptable is if either seat is interfering with the tight installation of the other, OR if a seat seems to be tight until you remove the other, and then is too loose-- that means the seat next to it is causing a "false good install," or the appearance of a good installation when it's actually a poor one. Each installation needs to be a good one independent of other seats touching it. Make sense?
If you want to try to get the other seat outboard, there are some things you can try.
-Are your buckles (the female part of the seatbelt) on long webbing stalks? If so, you can try twisting them down. You can twist them up to 3 full turns; only do as much as you need to get a solid install.
-Have you pulled the shoulder belt from the buckle side of the seat to tighten the lap portion before locking it? Sometimes it's easier to remove more slack that way.
-Sometimes also pulling the belt parallel to the belt path before locking is helpful.
If you want to e-mail me pictures of the seat in your car and/or your seatbelts/vehicle seat, I can take a look and just see if I can spot anything that way that might make it easier.
If nothing works, you have the options of 1) installing in the middle seat, if you can get independently tight installs on each seat or 2) if you cannot get independently tight installs, you should look into another seat-- I would recommend one with lockoffs for the seatbelt (the First Years True Fit, the Combi Coccoro (a new seat), and the Recaro and Britax convertible seats have this feature, as well as a few infant seats, though I realize you weren't interested in infant seats last time we talked. The True Fit fits newborns well from birth, as does the Coccoro, but the Coccoro will not allow for very extended rear-facing and won't last as long forward facing. The Recaro and Britax convertibles do not fit most newborns.)
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
Thanks for the ideas. I will make sure that the middle position is independently tight, and also try again on the side. If the middle works, I don't think I want to go through the hassle of ordering another one and returning this one, although I really like the idea of those lock offs. My main concern is with my daughter putting something on top of the baby, but I've been working with her on that. Since the seat is installed in the car, she's not allowed to put anything in it for any reason. By the time he's born, it should be thoroughly ingrained in her mind.
--Mel
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I've actually found it has been helpful to have an older child right next to the baby; yes, they take a little training to be gentle sometimes but it's an extra pair of hands to pick up a paci that falls and an extra pair of eyes to tell you if the baby is awake or asleep, or starting to turn blue, or something...
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Oh! I also forgot one more thing. If your seatbelt is particularly wide-set, and that's what's causing the problem, you can also try scooching the seat over toward the buckle stalk rather than centered on the seat (this is often helpful for infant seats in wide positions, but can sometimes help with a convertible as well.) You move it to the side, then try removing the slack before locking the belt.
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
Thanks to your suggestions, I did finally get a tight installation in the side seat. I found that I wasn't able to make it work in middle, since with the middle seat properly tightened down, the other one didn't fit anymore. It took a lot of energy, and some amazing contortions for eight months of pregnancy, but I did get the new car seat tightened down enough.
I am curious about an unrelated question, though. All of the manuals that I've read have said to use a rolled up towel or blanket if necessary to properly position a rear-facing seat. When I was searching for more information about seatbelt lock offs, I ran across a page that said it was much better to use a foam pool noodle, since it wouldn't compress as much as rolled up cloth. Are there any guidelines on what sorts of things are and are not acceptable to use for positioning?
--Mel
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Some newer manuals are now saying "rolled towel or pool noodle." Most do not say blanket. Blankets are not preferred because they can compress a lot more than a towel. A flannel recieving blanket MAY be acceptable but a towel (preferably an old, thin one) is better, and a pool noodle is even better. You want as little air to be able to compress out as possible. The problem is the same one as that of using a snowsuit or bulky clothing/jackets in the car; in a crash, crash forces will cause it to compress, causing slack. In the case of a snowsuit or winter jacket, the slack is created between the child and the harness/belt, which can lead to ejection, strangulation, or head and other injuries; in the case of a big blanket under the seat, if it compresses enough, the seat will travel as if it was installed at far too upright or too reclined of an angle (depending on direction of the crash), leading to possible head, neck, and other injuries to the child as well as the possibility of over-rotating and a harder rebound. Basically, the less a child in a rear-facing seat moves in a crash (except for a small amount of controlled movement taken along with the seat, as it was designed to), the better. Seats are optimized for the correct amount of movement to protect the child when installed properly, but if they are installed at an angle outside of the manufacturer's guidelines, they can't do their jobs. Compression of a too-fluffy towel or blanket under the seat can lead to the seat moving more than the amount it was designed to.
Hence the recommendation for pool noodles to adjust the angle rather than towels, and especially not blankets. I use pool noodle on my own seats, if it's not available I use the thinnest fabric towel I can find. In a semi-emergency once I ended up using a lab coat, and actually felt better about that than about most towels I've seen used for this purpose because it was so thin and so tightly rolled, I knew compression would be minimal.
There are also "adjuster" products on the market which are basically a foam noodle, sometimes in a different shape, with a brand name on it that cost a lot more. They're safe to use, but I don't, because I live where you can always find pool noodles at the dollar store (and one noodle, cut, will generally fix the recline of about 3 seats.) But I know in some areas/climates that's not the case, and it's nice to have that option available for parents who can't find pool noodles in the middle of winter, etc.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Oh! And I'm glad you were able to get it in tightly. May I ask which tricks you ended up using, for my future reference?
And your older daughter is in a Nautilus, right? Were you able to find out how to get a top tether anchor retrofitted so you can tether her seat?
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
Well, other than the seats being so wide, the other major problem is that they are leather, making them very slick (this was my grandmother's car; I don't think I would ever buy a car with leather seats, especially after this). The seats slope down towards the back, making the rolled towel absolutely necessary, but the towel allowed the seat to slide along the belt path. I was about ready to return it, but then I thought that something more grippy, like a pool noodle, would have enough friction to keep the seat from moving. I didn't have any pool noodles, but to test out the idea I tried a 2X2 piece of lumber, wrapped once in the towel. With that in place, I was able to tighten down the seat and it didn't slide along the belt path anymore, so I will be buying a pool noodle to replace the lumber, now that I know that my idea worked. If it weren't for the fact that it would be very dangerous if it worked its way loose in a crash, I would say that a piece of lumber would be ideal for positioning the seat, since it's not going to compress at all. Luckily, pool noodles are in season around here. I'm planning to go shopping today, so I'll let you know later if a noodle works as well as the lumber.
Thanks for reminding me about the top tether. Yes, she's in a Nautilus, and I'm happy with the way that it works (although it is HEAVY!) February was so insanely busy that I forgot all about the top tether. I need to call the Buick dealer and see what they can tell me.
--Mel
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Dealers sometimes don't know. If you'd like, I can find out the part number, and whether they participate in a free installation program or how much it will cost, and whether you can do it yourself or if it needs to be dealer-installed.
The thing with a piece of lumber is that it doesn't compress ENOUGH. So sometimes it can give a false sense of good installation but as you say, in a crash it could work loose and become a projectile, or otherwise disturb the installation. Pool noodle may do it though. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Check your e-mail, I'm sending tether retrofit information. Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
Too little compression, too much compression, sheesh, things are complicated. I'm glad I have the opportunity to pick your brain, otherwise I'd be lost.
--Mel
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Well, like I said, the goal is for the car seat to be able to function exactly as it was designed and tested to-- to provide optimal protection. The best way to do that is to follow manufacturer's instructions (including on what to recline with, in this case a towel or pool noodle-- which Evenflo has come out as saying is acceptable, and things like not using bulky clothing, etc.), properly use and install every time, and use to the limits of the seat rear-facing and harnessed-- but never over the limits. All things I think you have well in hand. Posted by Sala (Member # 8980) on :
Disclaimer -- I have no children so I have never needed a car seat. I haven't even ferried other people's children in my car.
But I saw this in my newspaper today:
quote: A worker at the Solid Waste Management Authority pushes old car seats into a crusher Friday. After they were compacted into two blocks, the car seats weighted 1,481 pounds. The “car seat crush” was sponsored by Safe Kids, which promotes car seats for children and urges parents to discard used seats because they are a “one-child, one-use item.” At the last seat crush — in 2007 — Safe Kids crushed approximately 1,000 pounds of car seats.
I've never heard this before, that car seats are a one-child, one-use item. Is this true? Why would that be? Do car seats "mold" themselves to the body shape of a child and then another child wouldn't fit right?
Sala, just a curious person
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
They do have expiration dates, and you shouldn't buy one used because you don't know if it's been in a crash. There's nothing wrong with using the same one for siblings who are close in age, though. Or a recent hand-me-down from a friend if you know its history.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Yes, it's not that they're "one child" although they are considered "one use" (if they are in a crash, at least most crashes and most seats, they should be destroyed-- except the cover-- and not re-used.
Here is a checklist that should be used to determine whether a used seat is safe to use. (The list of expiration exceptions is out of date, though-- Peg Pereggo seats have a 5 year expiration, and the Safety 1st Uptown and Avenue and Sunshine Kids Radian seats also have 8 year expirations. The SafeGuard Child Seat and First Years True Fit have 7 year expirations. And the Ride Safer Travel Vest does not expire.)
Posted by Sala (Member # 8980) on :
Thanks for the info. I wouldn't have thought about any of this if it weren't for the article. Now, as my neices and nephews start having kids, I may need to get a car seat. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Or, at some point, two or three (to accomodate different-sized kids.) When you do, feel free to ask for recommendations! Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
Just wanted to report that the pool noodle did the job, after much strenuous effort. I'm glad that's all done for now.
--Mel
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Oh, good, I'm glad it worked for you!
I finished my CPST certification course today. I'm "legal." Posted by Mama Squirrel (Member # 4155) on :
Hey kq do you know anyone who can use an infant car seat? We have one that expires in December (right before we will need one). It has never been in an accident. It is a Graco (whichever one comes with the DuoGlider). We have an extra base for it as well.
Congrats on being "legal"!
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
Actually, now that you mention it, what do you do with old car seats? I see them at garage sales all the time but can't honestly say I'd feel comfortable selling one, since I wouldn't feel comfortable buying one. Can they be recycled or something? It feels like such a waste to toss our old infant carrier.
Posted by Mama Squirrel (Member # 4155) on :
Somewhere earlier in this thread kq says there are some places that recycle them. I haven't checked our area for one yet.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Mama, that's close enough to expiration I'd do one of two things; destroy/recycle it, or give it to someone you know personally who you KNOW will destroy it when it's expired (someone in your church, etc. who is maybe having a grandbaby and could use it?) Anyone who takes it needs to know that it expires soon and agree to destroy/dispose of it afterwards. I don't personally know anyone. The other thing you can do is donate it to your local Safe Kids for training/demonstration purposes, if they want it.
Christine, it can be passed down to a family member or friend if it's not expired, never crashed, not damaged and straps never washed, has all its parts and instructions.
It can be donated to Safe Kids or your local CPST-I (the I is for "Instructor" and they teach the classes). If it has years left rather than just a few months, you can donate it to a local womens' crisis shelter (they always need safe, unexpired seats.)
If you can find a seat recycling program or a center that accepts them, you can recycle most of it. (You can often sell or give away the cover for an extra; covers don't expire.)
If none of those is an option, it should be destroyed.
To properly dispose of a carseat, the following is recommended:
Remove the cover. Cut all straps. Take a sledgehammer to the shell or at the very least write "UNSAFE, DO NOT USE" all over it in permanent marker (if a dark shell try a silver marker.) Dispose of it in a closed (preferably locked) dumpster (don't put it out on the street.) Do the same for the base (if any) in a separate dumpster. Dispose of the straps and other removed parts in a different dumpster. (If you like to re-use, tether and lower anchor LATCH straps make excellent cargo tie-downs; harness straps and covers can be used for many projects, I know someone who makes purses.)
The only part that can be kept and safely used past expiration (other than the aforementioned cover/shade if applicable) is the locking clip. You can keep it in case you ever need an extra, or you can give it to me (I'm starting to outfit my CPST "kit" and need locking clips. )
Posted by School4ever (Member # 5575) on :
I took my son to the doctor and there was a woman there giving car seat information. I decided to present her with the same info I gave to KQ. I was very surprised when she said to keep him in the same five point harness until I could no longer force the buckles closed. I was quite disappointed in the advice, I was fully expecting her to give the same advice as was given to me here.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Oh dear.
Obviously she meant well, but was not well-informed.
If I personally had been given advice in conflict with the manufacturer's instructions, I would ask her a few things:
-Are you a CPST? (If so, ask her why she's advising to go against the manufacturer's instructions and what is taught in the nationally standardized curriculum, and report her to Safe Kids for giving bad advice. If not, on to the next question.)
-Where are you getting your information? (There are not a lot of sources out there that trump the manufacturer's instructions!)
-Are you aware that seats can be outgrown by height as well as weight (and usually are, since most kids hit the torso height limit on a seat before or around the same time as the weight limit?)
I look at misinformation as a chance to educate. (Otherwise it would drive me insane. )
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
I've been anxiously watching the progress of the TX booster law. As it stands right now TX has one of the most lax child occupant protection laws in the country. Coupled with a population half of whom don't seem to care even when given the information... This law would lead to some very positive changes if similar laws in other parts of the country are any indication, especially if it's actually enforced.
Right now, in TX, the law is 5 OR 36 inches. 8 OR 4'9" would be a big improvement!
Now, if only we could get a new governor here in CA who wouldn't veto our booster law improvements.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
It's time to buy Duplo a convertible car seat, I think. He's growing out of his Graco Snugride. There's the "cheap" range: $55–80 or so, and then there are the expensive ones: $120 and up. There's this Graco, which is the only one that kids can stay rearfacing in up to 40 lbs.
The thing is, I probably won't want to be rear-facing a 4-year-old. I know, I know. I am all for extended rear-facing now that I know about it, but past four seems extreme to me. (Please don't try to convince me otherwise; I've done my research and made up my mind. My question isn't about this.)
My children are low in weight. Lego is over three years old and still under 30 lbs. I just don't think I'll need something that rear-faces past 35 lbs. for my children.
So is there any other advantage to the Graco that makes it worth $100 more than, say, this one?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
One-- that particular seat is the only convertible left on the market (other than ones for institutional distribution only) that does not have EPS or EPP foam. That's the stuff in bicycle helmets; it helps absorb and dissipate the energy of the child's head hitting the seat in a crash. I consider it a fairly important feature. Is the Scenera safe without it? Yes, it meets minimum standards. Would I use a Scenera? Yes, and have, as a backup, rear-facing.
Oh, the other thing is that the Scenera has really low straps and shell for its weight limit. Most kids don't make it to 40 lbs. in it. Especially skinnier and/or longer-torsoed kids. Maggie outgrew it rear- and forward-facing at the same time-- at 9 months old (she had, at that point, a torso as long as the average 2 1/2 year old.)
However, the Graco MyRide (the new 40 lb. seat) has a low shell for its weight limit. Few normal-to-skinny kids will make it to 40 lbs. rear-facing by height in that seat anyway. (FTR, I won't try to convince you to rear-face until 4. I would personally rear-face to 5 if I could, but I can't. Tall kids. I will tell you that the most benefit to rear-facing is seen until age 2, and especially for smaller children, and would encourage you to rear-face at least until 2 or so. 3 is an even better age-- has to do with body proportions and skeletal development, but I know not all parents are up for that.)
If you have kids on the skinny side, I would encourage you to look for a seat with a taller shell than the Scenera and one that has EPS/EPP foam as features that might be valuable to you.
The Avenue (only available at KMart and Sears) might be a good one to look at. It's very similar to the Scenera, but has EPP foam, a taller shell, and top slots that will take most kids all the way to its limit 40 lbs. (not quite all, but most.)
The Evenflo Triumph Advance (prices start at around $120, depending on trim level) may be another option to look at.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Just because I haven't given new information on this thread in a while, thought I'd mention-- the Sunshine Kids Radians (all models, manufacture dates 9/1/08 and later) have been retroactively rated to 40 lbs. rear-facing in the US. Dorel has also released a new seat, the Safety 1st Complete Air, that rear-faces to 40 lbs. (and has a really super-tall shell, and allows rear-facing use to the top of the shell rather than one inch below like other seats, making it the tallest rear-facing seat on the market as well.)
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
Well KQ, Texas did pass our law. It goes into effect next week, but I must say that I'm finding it quite annoying! I also find it somewhat silly because they STILL haven't done anything about people sticking 12 kids in the back of a pickup when they pick them up from school....
My main problem with it is that the law doesn't give any thought to the purpose of booster seats. Booster seats are there, primarily, to position a seat belt so that it fits a child correctly. This is all well and good. My son uses a booster in my car, and I have extra boosters on hand with my parents so that he can use it in their vehicles most of the time. HOWEVER, my parents both have SUV's with a really TINY third seat. My sons knees already bend in the correct spots on those seats, and the seat belts are positioned so low that they already hit him in the correct spot when he sits there. When our whole family is trying to carpool to destinations, my son is often relegated to the third seat in order to fit everyone in one vehicle. Trying to put him in a booster seat back there is just ridiculous! The booster doesn't really fit, so I feel like he's less safe in the booster than he is just sitting on the normal seat.
Oh well... I guess we'll just carpool less often now.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
DDDaysh, there is evidence from at least one study that until kids hit puberty, they can benefit from the additional protection of a booster even if the belt is positioned properly without it. I can try to dig it up if you'd like.
In the mean time, there may be a solution to find a restraint that fits better back there. How does the booster not fit him when he's in that seat? What kind of booster are you using?
Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
Cool! Woot! Kids has the First Years True Fit seat for $99 today!
Posted by lobo (Member # 1761) on :
Why do car seats expire but seat belts don't?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
They're made of cheese.
Posted by Mama Squirrel (Member # 4155) on :
quote:Originally posted by ludosti: Cool! Woot! Kids has the First Years True Fit seat for $99 today!
Yep! We saw this before going to bed last night and got one.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I missed it.
Car seats expire for many reasons. Seatbelts don't expire, per se, but their fibers do degrade as a car seat harness would (they just generally aren't exposed to as much mess as car seat harnesses...) They are also a "one use" item. If a seatbelt is in use during a crash (holding a person or carseat or something else, I guess, in) it should be replaced. If seatbelts are 10 years old, they should be carefully inspected several times a year, at least one time being by someone who knows exactly what to look for (like a mechanic with experience with seatbelts) and if they are over 15 years old, you should consider replacing them. I personally won't use seatbelts over 20 years old unless I have no choice whatsoever (other than no seatbelt at all) and sometimes ones not that old just don't look safe to me. A seatbelt with a broken retractor or with any rips, frays, or cuts of any length should not be used. Crash testing has shown that a 1/4 mm cut in a seatbelt can cause catastrophic failure and injury to an occupant.
Posted by Minerva (Member # 2991) on :
How dangerous is leaving a coat on, given that the straps are tightened to the point that the coat is compressed? In my case, it would be an rear-facing infant in a bucket SS1.
I understand that there is anecdotal evidence, such as cases of infants being ejected from the seats. But were those situations in which the straps were not tight enough to compress to coat?
Is there any data on how much more dangerous it actually is?
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Put the child in the seat with the coat and tighten the straps. Then, without loosening, unfasten the straps and take the coat off. Put the child back in and refasten. If there's any slack in the straps, then the coat is too bulky to safely wear. If the straps are pulled as tight as they would be without the coat, it's safe to wear.
I made both of my kids carseat capes -- There're double-layer fleece ponchos with hoods. When we set the kids in the seat we lift the poncho up in back and fasten the harness underneath it. The kids love them because once the car warms up they can pull the cape off altogether. They're also great if the kids fall asleep in the car coming home at night -- instead of pulling the cape back on we just wrap the kid up in it like a blanket -- much easier to put them to bed without waking them up.
Posted by Sala (Member # 8980) on :
dkw, what a great idea! I've never heard of that (not being a mom), but that's something that would be terrific to make as a baby present.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
They aren't really necessary if you're using a carrier-type infant seat. You can strap the baby in in the house and put blankets over them so they don't need a coat. But they're great once the kid is in a permenantly installed seat.
Posted by Minerva (Member # 2991) on :
Those capes are great.
I'm wondering whether it really is that much more dangerous to put a kid in a seat with a coat, however. It's taken for granted that one should simply not do it, and I'm wondering if the advice should be just to ensure that the straps are tight enough to compress the coat.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
It's more dangerous. The problem is that human strength is often inadequate to fully compress the coat to the amount that will happen in a crash.
I've seen pictures of an infant seat with a puffy snow suit still buckled in tightly.
Baby was ejected.
If you want to use a coat in the car, my advice is (if it doesn't pass the test dkw described, where you take the coat off, and if you don't need to tighten to get a tight fit-- tight fit meaning you can't pinch any slack checking at the shoulders, your fingers slip off-- you don't use that coat) to use the "coat trick" where you unzip the coat, fasten the harness after pulling the coat out the sides, and then re-zip over the harness.
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She wears a size 2T top (and 18 month pants...)
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I'm glad I have the opportunity to pick your brain, otherwise I'd be lost.![[Angst]](graemlins/angst.gif)
8 OR 4'9" would be a big improvement!![[Frown]](frown.gif)