Other speculation?
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
I won't name names in case other people haven't read the article, but I can totally see the second person named. And there's certainly precedent.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
When does it start?
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
It starts January 16.
Posted by Architraz Warden (Member # 4285) on :
I can't see it being the fifth choice, if only because it would violate one of the humanoid cylon 'limitations' set down in an early season.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
Valid point.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
And I suspect that the fifth one in the list is actually an aged six anyway, so she wouldn't count. Number 2 does seem the most likely to me. There was a site I read a while back that had some really strong arguments for it being someone who isn't on this list. I bet they'll be disappointed.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Goody Scrivener: I won't name names in case other people haven't read the article, but I can totally see the second person named. And there's certainly precedent.
Precedent?
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
SciFi's starting to give clues as to the next episodes. It should go without warning that there are spoilers for the upcoming half-season.
Me, I'm just waiting for the webisodes. Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I keep saying that the 5th should be Elosha, but no one seems to agree.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
I'm a little annoyed that this has been dragged out so long.
--j_k
Posted by Architraz Warden (Member # 4285) on :
quote:Originally posted by neo-dragon: I keep saying that the 5th should be Elosha, but no one seems to agree.
She has become Roslin's version of Head Six after a fashion...
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
The thing about all the other candidates is that they're all in the fleet, and I'm pretty sure that D'anna said that only 4 of the 5 were. So if the 5th isn't part of the human fleet, and not with the cylons either, it stands to reason that it may be someone who is thought to be dead. We don't know if the final five can resurrect, but we also don't know that they can't. My theory is that the final five resurrect on Earth, and they will find Elosha there... Or Billy.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
A brief interview (non-spoilery) with James Callis here, resulting in possibly the best sentence I've read all day:
quote:"Honestly you can't be disappointed," he said. "I think if Adolf Hitler were back, he'd be crying in his handkerchief."
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Carrie: Me, I'm just waiting for the webisodes.
When are they supposed to air?
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
Lisa, I don't think I can elaborate without names. Best I can think of to say is look at who the others proved to be (and you've got the names of the 5 under consideration to hopefully see where I'm going)
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by neo-dragon: The thing about all the other candidates is that they're all in the fleet, and I'm pretty sure that D'anna said that only 4 of the 5 were.
I'm pretty sure she said that at a time when Starbuck and Co. were off on their mission to find Earth. Which means it could be one of the people on the ship with Starbuck. Which the second of the five mentioned in that article was.
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
No, by the time D'anna was alive and kicking, the fleet was all together. However, there were humans on the baseship that D'anna was holding hostage to get the known four, such as the President and Balter. ...I watched the six last episodes last night.
Which would leave three, four, and five on the list as possibilities. I really hope it's not three, just for character development reasons. I don't want it to be four, either, 'cause I really dislike that character. Five would be interesting (altho I also don't care for that character), if only for Hera's sake.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
*drools disgustingly on the floor*
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Um, why can't we just name the characters on the list instead of referring to their numbers? It's labeled as a major spoiler, but it's just speculation and rumours. It's no more a spoiler than my saying that I think it's Elosha.
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
Neo, I didn't want to name names so that people who chose not to follow the link weren't spoiled by our discussion. I'm going to guess that the others posting here have similar motives.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
The webisodes are supposed to go online starting December 12.
*does a little "Gaeta finally gets some!" dance*
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
New clues are up today! One's a video clip and one's a pretty heavily-altered former promo picture.
Posted by Imamess (Member # 11549) on :
I wonder what is meant by the altered photo clue...it seems even more misleading than before. Also, some of the clips seem kind of pointless, but I guess they can't be too obvious...
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
Huh... the photo doesn't actually seem that heavily altered to me. Unless I'm looking at the wrong photo...
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
The only alteration I can see in the photo is that Roslin is gone. You can see the regular version at http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/ to compare them.
Btw, if you want to see what happens when you fold that photo like a Mad Magazine back cover, check this out.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
DUDE! Awesome Lisa!
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
I consider Roslin missing to be a pretty significant alteration. Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
Where's the updated picture?
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
It's the sixth clue here.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
Oh, and don't forget - the webisodes go live Friday around noon EST, here.
(edited heavily because I, again, am a putz.)
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
Eighth clue is up.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
It's 12:07 EST right now, and the first one isn't up. Grr...
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
It's up. Gah! Now I remember what I hate about webisodes. They tease. Too short, and nothing but cliffhangers.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Gaeta is gay!!!!!! Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
Some of the webisodes have been posted early on Amazon.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Mmmmm... Gaeta is bi?
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
So it seems.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
The webisodes are actually pretty good so far. I'm excited to see the last one - and to see if SciFi manages to get all the clues up before the premiere next week (!).
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
Ooo, number 9 is up? Sweet. I already have number 10, but I've been waiting for 9 to show up before watching it.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
Tonight!!! Just over 3 hours!
Where will you be?
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I haven't actually been watching the webisodes, but the Space network here in Canada is airing them on tv as a lead-in to tonight's episode, so I guess I'll watch them after all. Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Grrr.... MOre... Questions.... ASKED.. then... ANSWERED RAWR!....
Posted by stihl1 (Member # 1562) on :
Alright, here we go. What little I do know of the Book of Mormon comes from reading the Homecoming series and the summaries on Wikipedia. Maybe it's just me, but the more this series goes on, the more it resembles many themes of the BoM. There has been ties rumored before about BSG and the mormon religion. I dunno what Ron Moore is faith-wise, but I am beginning to believe he's using a lot of the themes and narratives from the mormon faith in BSG, at the very least. Anyone care to comment?
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Yay Deedie is Dead! Or whatever her name was.
Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
Holy flippin ******!!!!! I totally did not see the fifth cylon coming! Not saying yet. If you have not seen the ep yet, it is on Hulu right now.
Watch it now. The pace is intense through the whole thing. The big reveal about Earth, I had read something about it, but the whole concept that they laid out was intoxicating to think about. This is going to be a very intense next 9 episodes. I feel I am about to explode waiting for the next one. Bravo to RM and company. This is going to be one for the books!
On a side note, seeing that Kara has been revealed to not be the fifth cylon...or is she? Anyways, but she has been resurrected...so I ask was her mother her mother or just an older version of herself?
Anyone see Aeon Flux? Aren't cylons kind of a similar thing? Stupid movie, but pretty cool concept.
Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Yay Deedie is Dead! Or whatever her name was.
You're cold Blayne, however not as cold as RM and co. That was such a humongous punch to the gut. To watch someone just suddenly lose all hope like that and have the light switch flip. Holy crap. It was like watching someone get hit by a bus right in front of you.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
my problem is WHY DIDNT THEY FIND A LIBRARY seriously there must be a tonne of nuclear proof shelters with time capsules to show them the truth of their history.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
quote:Originally posted by stihl1: Alright, here we go. What little I do know of the Book of Mormon comes from reading the Homecoming series and the summaries on Wikipedia. Maybe it's just me, but the more this series goes on, the more it resembles many themes of the BoM. There has been ties rumored before about BSG and the mormon religion. I dunno what Ron Moore is faith-wise, but I am beginning to believe he's using a lot of the themes and narratives from the mormon faith in BSG, at the very least. Anyone care to comment?
I don't really see it. What connections do you see?
Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
Pretty great. At this point I'm a little worried they writers are in over their heads, but it seems clear there is some force that is vastly more powerful than either the humans or the cylons who is influencing what's going on - Dee was as big a wtf as Starbuck in a way. Whether the force is the Cylon God or Ellen... I have no idea. At least we know now that the Final Five are regenerated in some fashion. I'm still skeptical they have found our Earth, though, since they still seem to quite deliberately not be showing any continents, etc., when before we've seen Stonehenge (season 2) and North America (season 3).
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
As far as BoM references, the original BSG was produced by an LDS man and there were numerous LDS references (they didn't get married, they got sealed). So, it would not be surprising for some of that influence to still be showing up.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
All of this has happened before -- heh.
quote:That was such a humongous punch to the gut. To watch someone just suddenly lose all hope like that and have the light switch flip. Holy crap. It was like watching someone get hit by a bus right in front of you.
The weird sad-to-happy flip threw me for a minute, but as soon as she took of the ring I knew she was done.
(Anders Deathwatch starting now.)
--
I don't know how I feel about Ellen. I suppose it makes sense that she and Saul didn't have any children, though.
I'm going to speculate a little, so if you don't like reading that kind of thing, stop now.
.
.
.
.
.
.
. Before this episode everyone had accepted that Kara might be half-cylon, so we thought her mother was likely the twelfth. If Kara's mother is not a cylon, her father must be. One of my roommates suggested that it might be Tigh. (Leoben? That's just creepy.)
If Kara is in fact part cylon, then it looks like her generation could be "reborn" like the original 12 models (until the Hub was destroyed, anyway). She would be the "harbinger of death" because the Human-Cylons can reproduce, unlike the 12, so they'll take over eventually. That would explain why Leoben was so afraid of her, and why Simon took away her ovaries.
.
.
.
.
.
.
. --j_k
[ January 17, 2009, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: James Tiberius Kirk ]
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Was Ellen sleeping with half the fleet because she wanted a kid?
Where is Ellen now, anyway?
Wouldn't it be funny if the plant Roslin brought back had potent anti-cancer properties?
I agree that it's interesting they're not showing us continents. I bet it's not Earth.
How does a 2000 year old civilization fit in with the skinjobs being created by the decades-old cylons? My guess is the centurions stumbled on the technology designed by the Five and built the Seven. I'd argue that the Five are humans of a slightly different subspecies than the humans from the Colonies (I say subspecies given Nicky Tyrol). They really aren't Cylons at all.
If this has all happened before and will all happen again, are a few people presumed dead in the nuking of the colonies going to show up again at the end? For that matter, being one of the Five might explain how Ellen miraculously ended up with the fleet. It was sort of under odd circumstances.
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Seven were also originally from Earth, but whatever process catapulted copies of them deep into space also completely wiped their memories, leaving them on their own to join up with the 12-colonies Cylons and take their identities and their philosophies from those unfeeling machines.
The Five are special because their memories are (marginally) more intact, and thus they have the ability to find home again. I imagine that the Seven might have been some kind of initial test run of the technology that was really designed to save the Five from the coming apocalypse.
Maybe the settlers of Earth lost their spacefaring technology, so the use of this weird person-copying technology was a hail mary to try and survive the destruction of their world and find the twelve colonies ... much like the Galactica fleet is a hail mary to survive the destruction of the colonies and find Earth.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
quote:Originally posted by James Tiberius Kirk: I don't know how I feel about Ellen. I suppose it makes sense that she and Saul didn't have any children, though.
Well, not entirely. I mean, Saul knocked up Caprica, yet Tyrol and Boomer never had a kid. Maybe the children can be born of different levels of Cylon?
I don't believe that there was no human civilization on Earth. Unless their archaeological excavations were significantly more detailed than digging the equivalent depth of a sandbox, there's no basis for saying that the last bones to lay on the surface = the only bones ever to exist on the planet. Tauron or Sagittaron will probably have similar remain patterns in a couple millennia.
I think I've got "Cally Syndrome" when it comes to Dee - I liked both characters when they had small roles, didn't like them as they were twenty-somethings with speaking roles in post-apocalyptic military, and I kinda miss them now that they're dead. Dee's death scores an A+ for shock value, though. Well played, writers. Well played.
Also, Bear McCreary's blog is fantastic concerning this episode. I highly recommend reading it, if you've not already.
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
All I can say is NO FRAKKIN WAY. I'm so stunned. Kara, Dee, Laura, Bill, Ellen... wow.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Yay Deedie is Dead! Or whatever her name was.
Anastasia Dualla.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by ReddwarfVII: Holy flippin ******!!!!! I totally did not see the fifth cylon coming! Not saying yet. If you have not seen the ep yet, it is on Hulu right now.
I don't think she's the fifth. I think she's a number 6. Just older. That's why Saul had that attraction to Caprica and why he kept seeing her face on her. This is just more misdirection.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shigosei: Where is Ellen now, anyway?
Dead. Saul poisoned her, remember?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
If it's not the real Earth, then why did the star charts match up? Why did Kara's Viper end up there?
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:Originally posted by Shigosei: Where is Ellen now, anyway?
Dead. Saul poisoned her, remember?
Yes, I know. I'm assuming she resurrected somewhere.
Posted by sylvrdragon (Member # 3332) on :
Dee was probably the only part of the episode that hadn't been speculated somewhere already. As for Ellen... I feel a little sick...
I really really really hope that the Cylons age and that she was an older 6. Of course, that begs the question: What age was Saul reborn at? It doesn't seem likely that he would be that old straight off the assembly line.. but then, look at Cavil... But don't you think Bill would have noticed if Saul had started out that old and never aged again?
There MUST be aging somewhere in there. Maybe the entire model ages as one so that they're reborn at the same until they start over. Perhaps the 6s only just started over during Ellen's life-time.
I have no frakin clue what's up with Kara, but I can't wait to find out.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Obviously Saul wasn't born that old. Adama has specifically said that they met like 30 years ago, and that when they met, Tigh had hair. He's aged.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
One possibility I've speculated at is that Ellen('s model) is the final Cylon . . . and so is Kara. That is, she isn't the child of a Cylon, she's a younger version of Ellen (for a twist on the whole 'older version of six' speculation).
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
So starting in March, there's going to be a canonical comics miniseries about the Final Five:
quote:"'The Final Five' takes place over a long, long time," explained Reed of the Dynamite comic book. "It's the story of how the Final Five came into existence and the cataclysmic rift that threw them into human society. It's about the original creation of the Cylons, and the conflicts with the humans and within the Cylon ranks that forged the characters we know."
Sounds extremely cool.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
quote:Originally posted by Carrie:
quote:Originally posted by James Tiberius Kirk: I don't know how I feel about Ellen. I suppose it makes sense that she and Saul didn't have any children, though.
Well, not entirely. I mean, Saul knocked up Caprica, yet Tyrol and Boomer never had a kid.
He did, didn't he? What happened to that kid anyway?
--j_k
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
Ah, Dee.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by fugu13: One possibility I've speculated at is that Ellen('s model) is the final Cylon . . . and so is Kara. That is, she isn't the child of a Cylon, she's a younger version of Ellen (for a twist on the whole 'older version of six' speculation).
Kara and Ellen certainly share the self-destructive behavior. But I'm skeptical.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Carrie: I mean, Saul knocked up Caprica,
I'm unconvinced of that, btw.
Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
Wouldn't Saul remember the way Ellen looked when she was young?
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Well, he always has viewed Starbuck in very odd ways
It is just speculation, of course. I mean, at this point there are two basic possibilities (though I could easily be proved wrong): Either Starbuck is a Cylon, or she belongs to a supercategory of things that can come back from the dead (which might turn out to be all humans, given the right technology) that also includes Cylons. If the former, then either the count of Cylons is off (dissatisfying), or she's a different version of another Cylon, or Ellen isn't really the final one and she is (and I wouldn't put that past the writers). If the latter, they're going the "we're all Cylons now" direction. That seems particularly possible given there were people on Earth who haven't appeared as Cylons, implying the tech could be used to reincarnate more than just the official Cylons.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:Originally posted by Carrie: I mean, Saul knocked up Caprica,
I'm unconvinced of that, btw.
So Doc Cottle is wrong? Lying? It was someone else?
Or maybe... Doc Cottle is the REAL final Cylon! Man, that would be awesome. Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I think their "all" Cylons who get ressurected ala Aeon Flux through natural process of being born, but it got screwed up and they lost their memories. The point is that there probably isn't a final 5 just 5 that they know of, there could have been more, its breaks credibility that only 5 Humans on whatever planet that was would ahve had the connections to get zapped to new bodies somewhere.
So, two possibilities, Humans left "Earth" went to Kobol then left again to found the colonies, or Kobol IS Earth and the people left to found 12 colonies and new earth, or as per original, left earth went to Kobol but some came back.
So far the show isn't making that much sense and so i hope that it begins to make sense soon. If that WAS in fact Earth they were on, then I lose some respect for the show for there is so much they have missed or deliberately glossed over just to fabricate an emotional reaction. There should be beacons, morse code transmitions, bunkers broadcasting SOS, preserved timecapsuls and libraries, SATALEITS still broadcasting random crud, they didn't even show if there was a moon. There should have been a TONNE of information lying around they should have at least in desperation searched for clues as to what happened.
But hopefully that is not Earth, they didn't show the moon, didn't show the continents, just a ruined skyline and this is jsut misdirection but even then, you'ld think Galactica would make more of an effort in scientific curiosity in the least to figure out what happened, gotta be on intact library somewhere, one shielded database.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
I just rewatched the episode... and at the end when Saul and Ellen die via nuke in that building she says, "It's ok. Everything's in place. We'll be reborn again."
Everything's in place. The resurrection facility?
Could the Central Resurrection Hub be far far older than we thought? What if the Central Hub was the original, from Earth? Might explain why there was only one and impossible for the Cylons to build another.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
I think the word Cylon is being used incorrectly by the Fleet. "Cylon" is a Caprican word. The beings of Earth are not 12 Colony "Cylons". The bones on Earth are called Cylon because they match what the Standard Seven are like. But what if, as was proposed before, that the 12 are all Humans from Earth... that they found the Cylons from the 12 Colonies and merged with that android race...that the Centurions didn't evolve into cyborgs and then into the humanoid models.
That the 12 actually surpressed the Centurions, via that A.I. inhibitor, to become one with the Cylons. That would explain why the Centurions have such a device in the first place... why spend the extra energy to make a machine with intelligence just to supress it?
The Final Five were rebels from this merger with the Cylons and joined the 12 Colonies.
Still wouldn't explain how they age yet the Standard Seven do not...
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Telperion the Silver: I just rewatched the episode... and at the end when Saul and Ellen die via nuke in that building she says, "It's ok. Everything's in place. We'll be reborn again."
Everything's in place. The resurrection facility?
Could the Central Resurrection Hub be far far older than we thought? What if the Central Hub was the original, from Earth? Might explain why there was only one and impossible for the Cylons to build another.
Yeah but, wouldn't some Cylon janitor wandering around the facility stumble into a massive room full of Cylons he's never seen before and wonder "Huh, who the hell are they?"
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Well, no, because the Five would have disconnected themselves not only from Cylon group mind but also the Cylon Data Stream that would link them to the Resurrection Ships/Hub. They would not, and are not, part of Cylon society at all. And then the Seven purged their memories of the Five.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
The 13 Lords of Kobol. The 13 Tribes.
One god wanted to be worshiped above all the others, thus the war on Kobol began.
The Temple of Five, built for the Five Priests who worship the One whos name cannot be spoken.
The Final Five "Cylons".
The space between life and death... the Jump Drives... and the Cylon Basestar Hybrids who are linked to the Jump Drives... who know the mind of God and are driven mad by it. Who give prophecies.
The Head Beings... who also can predict the future and have been manipulating things from the beginning...
The Final Five are a red herring. They are not the real truth. The real truth is that some great power is moving and manipulating both the Humans and the Cylons.
What is it?
The Cylon God? The Lords of Kobol?
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Soooo... was the Temple of Five built by people leaving Earth for Kobol or from Kobol to Earth?
The Temple of Five was built 4,000 years ago. The Tribes left Kobol 3,600 years ago, and the nuking of Earth was 2,000 years ago.
So...if we assume Earth was the original birth-world of Mankind, not Kobol, then the Temple was built by colonists on their way to Kobol. The stay on Kobol itself isn't that long then, only 400 years or so till the evacuation and eventual settlement of the Twelve Colonies.
How else would the people of Kobol know in advance what the constellations from the perspective of Earth look like to put into the Tomb of Athena? Or the exact names of those constellations which the Colonies would be named after.
So the 13th Tribe must have already known of Earth, it's location, and returned there from Kobol. And if the 13th Tribe are "Cylons", of a sort, with humanoid and robotic models in a mix that would explain the time line of the nuking of Earth 2000 years ago. They had, yet again, another war with each other that destroyed themselves.
KEY: Before Attack (BA), After Attack (AA)
-(4,XXX BA) Humans on Earth destroy themselves -(4,000 BA) Humans evacuate to Kobol, building the Temple of Five on the way -(3,600 BA) Gods and Humans war and evacuate Kobol. 13th Tribe return to Earth and the 12 Tribes settle the Twelve Colonies -(2,000 BA) 13th Tribe destroy themselves on Earth
The show must take place in our distant future.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:How else would the people of Kobol know in advance what the constellations from the perspective of Earth look like to put into the Tomb of Athena?
Guys, you realize that you're much smarter than the writers, right? I'm absolutely certain that they haven't thought this out.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
You know that makes me depressed, it essentially makes alot of speculation moot.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
You'd think they would pay someone to keep track of continuity.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
They should commision hatrack.
Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
This a fantastic interview from the Chicago Sun Times that Ron Moore did about the Ep. Check it out, but I have one interesting tidbit to highlight.
From the interview: CST: That planet is Earth? We’re not going to find out, “Oh, there’s this other Earth over here...” This is the only Earth we’ll see?
RDM: They have found Earth. This is the Earth that the 13th Colony discovered, they christened it Earth. They found Earth.
Okay, okay. I know that I am reading too much into this, but ins't that phrased interestingly? So BSG found the Earth they were looking for. The one discovered by the 13th Tribe. However....is it Earth....aka our Earth?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:How else would the people of Kobol know in advance what the constellations from the perspective of Earth look like to put into the Tomb of Athena?
Guys, you realize that you're much smarter than the writers, right? I'm absolutely certain that they haven't thought this out.
Actually, I don't think that'd be very hard to figure out, given their level of technology, hell even with our current level of technology. So long as you know where all the stars are, I don't see why you wouldn't be able to identify Earth's position via what the constellations would look like from Earth's position.
If you assume they could do it, the question would be "how did they know Earth was there?" rather than "how would they know how to define the address?"
But there was something else going on there than just science stuff. I mean obviously, there's something mystical working above and beyond all of this, that gave them the vision on Kobol of the constellations, and the constant visions along the way, and magically poofed Kara to Earth. There might be a Cylon related rebirth explanation as to why Kara's alive, but not to how she got from the swirly cloud to Earth, or for that matter, where she got the brand new Viper from.
I think we're going to find a really big mystical explanation for a LOT of our unanswered questions, and I think to a degree, it's going to be a letdown.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
So, Ellen is the fifth. Now who/what the heck is Kara?!
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
(maintaining the distinction of Starbuck as the one who disappeared and Kara as the one who returned)
We don't know with certainty that the body in the Viper was Starbuck. We know it was blonde and that it was wearing what appeared to be a duplicate of her dogtags and ring. But there was too much decomposition for visual confirmation, and now Kara's burned the body so I don't think DNA testing could work either.
However, I just had another weird thought. The Cylons harvested one of Starbuck's ovaries when she went back to Caprica. It's a reasonable supposition that Kara is a clone of Starbuck. Not necessarily a Cylon as we currently understand the term to mean, aka the skinjobs. But maybe the skinjobs have figured out how to adapt their resurrection technology to humans.... or in light of the fact that all of the skeletons found on Earth test as Cylon bodies, they've rediscovered the ability. And maybe the difference in genetics is just evolution? I don't know, the brain isn't entirely functional today.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
Cylons can remember past lives. Kara can't. There's definitely something different about her.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
the other four have just started to remember bits of their past lives, and are still mostly in the dark.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brinestone: Cylons can remember past lives. Kara can't. There's definitely something different about her.
I don't see this as a major problem - all of the five and even Boomer didn't remember their past lives initially. Not that I think Kara is a Cylon. I just don't think that a lack of memory of former lives is necessarily an obstacle to her being one.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
quote:Originally posted by ReddwarfVII: Okay, okay. I know that I am reading too much into this, but ins't that phrased interestingly? So BSG found the Earth they were looking for. The one discovered by the 13th Tribe. However....is it Earth....aka our Earth?
They showed us the continental United States at the end of S3, and then played All Along The Watchtower. It seems likely to me that it's an alternate history Earth.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
Starbuck's father was a musician, so maybe Anders is her father. Starbuck played her dads piano music with Helo during her visit to Caprica.
I'm reaching.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Um... I don't think they'd go down the incest road.
The morning show guy on a local radio station proposed the theory that Starbuck is somehow Ellen and Saul's daughter. It would certainly add a new dimension to the antagonism that was apparent between Kara and Tigh earlier in the series, but I don't see how it's possible.
Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
quote:Originally posted by twinky:
quote:Originally posted by ReddwarfVII: Okay, okay. I know that I am reading too much into this, but ins't that phrased interestingly? So BSG found the Earth they were looking for. The one discovered by the 13th Tribe. However....is it Earth....aka our Earth?
They showed us the continental United States at the end of S3, and then played All Along The Watchtower. It seems likely to me that it's an alternate history Earth.
Maybe...and I am going this direction based on some spoiler info read a while ago that the Earth they discovered may not be the actual Earth. Since this earth is in fact the homeworld of a race of cylons, I am thinking that there is more here than meets the eye. The phrase in RDM's interview that is keeping me doubting is that they "christened it Earth." I think that this is the Earth they were looking for..the Earth of the 13th tribe, but that phase just keeps bugging me.
The news story from SyFy Portal about this. !!!Major Spoiler alert!!! But it really doesn't answer any questions.
I seem to remember Starbuck's photos of the moon looking like our moon, but I don't know if it really was our not. I'm inclined to think that the planet they found isn't a counterpart to this one given the lack of identifying features and the evasive answer. However, since Starbuck's viper was found on the planet, that would imply that it's the same place where she took the moon photos. If it's "our" moon, then this is "our" Earth.
Unless, of course, she died on New Earth and got resurrected on Old Earth. Perhaps that's where the resurrection facility is. Maybe the Five were from Old Earth and were on a mission of infiltration like Caprica Six.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I'm willing to take Moore's word when he says that this Earth is THE Earth. I think it'd be a silly bit of misdirection to proclaim it is and then in the next couple episodes have it not be. Not just because of the buildup.
My question is twofold, after having thought about it a bit:
1. The nuclear holocaust was 2,000 years ago, why are the Final Five all less than 70 years old? I'll ignore the fact that they either were or weren't born to actual parents and perhaps programmed with fake memories. My only question is was their rebirth delayed 1,900 years? Or have they continually been reborn with no memories of all their past lives since Earth?
2. There was a planet full of Cylons, why were only five out of a planet of perhaps billions actually reborn elsewhere? Ellen said that everything was in place, okay, but where are the others? How they got across the galaxy to the 12 Colonies from Earth I think could probably be explained away technologically.
Moore says that all the pieces are going to fall into place, but I can think of another dozen questions off the top of my head that need explaining. I guess it's a good thing that the finale is 3 hours long.
Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
Well even though we are in the final run of the series, I think that if we think that we are going to get all of our questions answered, we are being slightly naive. I think that we will get most of them answered, but there are still far too many more that they simply won't have time to cover in the remaining eps.
Of course the cool thing about this series is that you could wait another ten years and then tell the story again except with a new group of people two or three thousand years later in the timeline. BSG definately has the possiblity of an ever expanding universe.
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
I don't have encyclopedic knowledge of all things BSG, so I don't know if there's evidence already that would preclude this, but here's what I'd been thinking. What if the "final five" are more like parasites or symbiotes (aiuas?), and can take any body that's available?
And in this case, it wasn't that the four we knew realized that they were cylons, but that they became cylons at that point (after waiting 2,000 years for bodies to get near enough to "Earth")? Thus, in the flashbacks we've seen, they picture themselves as how they look now, but there's no guarantee that's what they actually looked like (residual self-image or something). The one who is now Tigh was originally married/attached to another, so he now assumes she was Ellen, but in fact the symbiote/parasite was actually transferred to Starbuck when she wasn't with the fleet.
This doesn't yet explain how Starbuck comes back, so I might have to fiddle with the concept a bit more. Or I may be so ridiculously far off that I'll get sent back to season one and told to pay attention.
Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
quote:Originally posted by ReddwarfVII:
quote:Originally posted by twinky:
quote:Originally posted by ReddwarfVII: Okay, okay. I know that I am reading too much into this, but ins't that phrased interestingly? So BSG found the Earth they were looking for. The one discovered by the 13th Tribe. However....is it Earth....aka our Earth?
They showed us the continental United States at the end of S3, and then played All Along The Watchtower. It seems likely to me that it's an alternate history Earth.
Maybe...and I am going this direction based on some spoiler info read a while ago that the Earth they discovered may not be the actual Earth. Since this earth is in fact the homeworld of a race of cylons, I am thinking that there is more here than meets the eye. The phrase in RDM's interview that is keeping me doubting is that they "christened it Earth." I think that this is the Earth they were looking for..the Earth of the 13th tribe, but that phase just keeps bugging me.
The news story from SyFy Portal about this. !!!Major Spoiler alert!!! But it really doesn't answer any questions.
I agree with your speculation. As twinky points out, they showed the continental US at the end of season 3, BUT they've been (seemingly) very very careful not to show any distinctive continents in either of the last two episodes. So basically at this point I am convinced (until proven wrong) that they are on "Earth" but not OUR Earth, which is where I think they'll end up by the end of the series.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: My question is twofold, after having thought about it a bit:
1. The nuclear holocaust was 2,000 years ago, why are the Final Five all less than 70 years old? I'll ignore the fact that they either were or weren't born to actual parents and perhaps programmed with fake memories. My only question is was their rebirth delayed 1,900 years? Or have they continually been reborn with no memories of all their past lives since Earth?
Well, we know that there is some third group out there who at the very least made sure that Kara was reborn and given a new viper. It wouldn't surprise me at all if they were also behind the rebirth and insertion of the final five into human society.
What puzzles me is whether or not this group is behind the head six/baltar. It's been clear for some time that they are likely external to the people experiencing them, at least they certainly seem to have knowledge beyond that of their hosts. Of all the threads still left dangling, this is one of the ones I want to see wrapped up the most.
Posted by Architraz Warden (Member # 4285) on :
Completely random and wild speculation below... What if it WASN'T just the final five that resurrected?
What if the resurrection hub on old earth was made so that if anyone in range of it died, it could scan their body, make a copy, and resurrect them automatically? What if Ellen saying "Everything is in place, we'll be together again" was something every person knew and expected?
Second question... What if becoming 'cylon' was a result of being resurrected through this process. When Kara's ship crashed on the planet, she was scanned and duplicated by the same machine (I'm still trying to work out how she got a new viper, as well as to and back from earth in the process). By this account, she IS a cylon now, simply not one of the Final Five. The newer cylons (as well as controlling the toasters) could be a group of unknown old earth cylons.
'Normal' humans would be the refugees from Earth who weren't killed in the war. The remains of the cylon bones on Earth were people who had been resurrected and were fighting whoever was responsible for the nuclear attack in the first place. The 'Final Five' were simply the ones who wound up living with the humans for whatever reason.
It could explain some of the hostility between cylons and humans... Humans were responsible for nuking the cylon nation on old earth, cylons return the favor by nuking humanity's 12 worlds.
I'm still trying to work out how this works in with the 3600 year old Kobol vs. 2000 year old ruins though... As well as the jumping to and from earth, which would be necessary for the final five + Kara. Anyone remember the mechanics behind Total Annihilation? Something as large as a Battlestar would be insanely expensive to jump, a raider is smaller so it takes less energy and can jump farther, jumping just a person you could go much much farther. Particularly if you did so from something like a planet which can house a very large generator.
And one other thing that has bothered me... the range on DRADIS seems to be fairly local. Assuming this is THE Earth, has anyone in the fleet bothered taking a look at, say Mars?
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I'm hoping theres an old earth defence station in orbit with some 9th generation family of technitians that hails the fleet when its orbit intercepts.
Posted by Marlozhan (Member # 2422) on :
SPOILER, though I think that goes without saying...
I am remembering when Dee was looking at the jacks in the dirt on Earth. At first, I assumed that these jacks just represented a child's play toy, symbolic of a civilization that is now long destroyed.
However, upon rethinking it, is it possible that she had her own vision of a past life, just like the Final Five had? Did Dee remember something, realize she is a Cylon and kill herself because she couldn't deal with that? Her suicide was dramatic and unexpected after having that Date with Apollo, and I view this knowledge as being more traumatic to her than the destruction of earth.
Perhaps there are more fleet members who have some connection to this ancient society that was destroyed.
Is there some other fact I am forgetting that rules out this theory?
Edit: This theory also leaves open the option that Dee could return somehow after being resurrected, assuming there is something nearby to resurrect people, perhaps similar to what happened to Kara. Also, Dee was looking at a photo of herself as a child just before she shot herself. This would support this theory, since the jacks indicate that if she did have a memory of a past life, it would have been as a child. The photo only reminded her of this past life.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I think Dee just lost it. You could tell from the way she was trying to hold herself together on the Raptor ride back to Galactica. She kept pinning her emotions on different things that let her down, and Earth was the biggie, and when it ended up being a big ball of blah, that was the last thing holding up her will to live.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
I think I figured it out. Time is repeating...this way:
13 Tribes leave Kobol. 12 of them settle the Twelve Colonies and the 13th is "Cylon" and settles Earth.
Present day: Same thing. The 12 Tribes leave the Colonies for another home... just as their "children" the Cylons do. The Cylons we know today, birthed of the 12 Colonies, are the current 13th Tribe.
The ancient 13th Tribe of Kobolian "Cylons" killed themselves off... just as the present 13th Tribe is doing right now.
So...some survivors from Earth reached the 12 Colonies... the FF became part of Human society and the SS became part of Cylon society.
Why or how is still anyone's guess.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by Architraz Warden: Completely random and wild speculation below... What if it WASN'T just the final five that resurrected?
What if the resurrection hub on old earth was made so that if anyone in range of it died, it could scan their body, make a copy, and resurrect them automatically? What if Ellen saying "Everything is in place, we'll be together again" was something every person knew and expected?
Second question... What if becoming 'cylon' was a result of being resurrected through this process. When Kara's ship crashed on the planet, she was scanned and duplicated by the same machine (I'm still trying to work out how she got a new viper, as well as to and back from earth in the process). By this account, she IS a cylon now, simply not one of the Final Five. The newer cylons (as well as controlling the toasters) could be a group of unknown old earth cylons.
'Normal' humans would be the refugees from Earth who weren't killed in the war. The remains of the cylon bones on Earth were people who had been resurrected and were fighting whoever was responsible for the nuclear attack in the first place. The 'Final Five' were simply the ones who wound up living with the humans for whatever reason.
It could explain some of the hostility between cylons and humans... Humans were responsible for nuking the cylon nation on old earth, cylons return the favor by nuking humanity's 12 worlds.
I'm still trying to work out how this works in with the 3600 year old Kobol vs. 2000 year old ruins though... As well as the jumping to and from earth, which would be necessary for the final five + Kara. Anyone remember the mechanics behind Total Annihilation? Something as large as a Battlestar would be insanely expensive to jump, a raider is smaller so it takes less energy and can jump farther, jumping just a person you could go much much farther. Particularly if you did so from something like a planet which can house a very large generator.
And one other thing that has bothered me... the range on DRADIS seems to be fairly local. Assuming this is THE Earth, has anyone in the fleet bothered taking a look at, say Mars?
this is a good theory.
Posted by Wonder Dog (Member # 5691) on :
I concur. That seems like a really simple but fitting explanation, Architraz. $20 (CDN) says that what the writers came up with is far more convoluted and hackneyed.
Either way, it's gonna be good right up to the end!
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
I really didn't care much for this episode. Last week gave me a lot of confidence in where they were going, but I felt like they introduced a lot of unnecessary complications that don't really serve any purpose other than inflating the amount of drama.
For one thing, what was up with the Cylon technology being vastly superior to that of the colonial fleet. Unless there is some other outside influence that has yet to be explained, the Cylon technology is just a branch that split off of colonial technology some 40 or 50 years ago. Sure, they might have advanced further in some areas, they certainly had motive to do so, but the idea that they are so impossibly far ahead that no one can understand it seems a little odd. All in all, it felt like it was only there to provide a source of conflict for the episode.
Likewise, the revelation about Cally's son seemed a little tacked on. Maybe they have somewhere interesting that they're going to take this, but until they do it seems as though it was only added for the sake of adding drama to a show that already has plenty going for it.
There were some things I liked. I thought that the buildup to an uprising was fairly well done. There is logically a lot of anger and a sense of betrayal amongst the fleet, and they did a good job showing how it was stirring into a real problem.
I also thought that the Roslin plot was fairly well done. There are few that have had as much riding on their shoulders for so long in this show, and if anyone deserves a break she certainly does, but the troubles aren't over with yet and she is still needed. In my opinion, this creates an interesting story.
That said, I would really love to see someone answer the charges that they lead the fleet to nowhere with an answer along the lines of "did you have somewhere else that you were particularly interested in going to?". Yeah, Earth turned out to be a bust, but the leadership did deliver on their promise of finding it. And besides, with the Cylons chasing after them the whole way they didn't exactly have many other places to go.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
quote:For one thing, what was up with the Cylon technology being vastly superior to that of the colonial fleet. Unless there is some other outside influence that has yet to be explained, the Cylon technology is just a branch that split off of colonial technology some 40 or 50 years ago. Sure, they might have advanced further in some areas, they certainly had motive to do so, but the idea that they are so impossibly far ahead that no one can understand it seems a little odd. All in all, it felt like it was only there to provide a source of conflict for the episode.
Negative. Cylon technology is light years ahead of the Colonials. In the pilot they talk about this several times, that when the thinking machines rebelled against Humanity we, out of nessesity, had to abandon nearly all our high tech... as the Cylons can hack into and "take over even the most basic computer system".
For the Colonies to survive they had to "look backwards for protection". It was only in the past couple decades that the ban on advanced computers had been slowly erroded, leading to the genocide because the Colonies were again advanced enough to be suseptible to the Cylons hacking of the defense network and warships. That's the whole point of the steam-punk (retro) feel of the Galactica and the show in general. So while the 12 Colonies advanced again and built more and more advanced Battlestars and other cool toys for our protection, they were actually sowing the seeds of their demise.
Can the Fleet build a cyborg like the Hybrid, or humanoid body that can physically link up with a Baseship or the Cylon Data Stream? I think not. Let's not even talk about resurrection.
The Baseships don't even need thrusters to navigate around... who knows what wonders they have on board.
One Cylon Raider was able to get all the way back to Caprica with one jump, when it took the Fleet over 300 jumps to get as far as they did from the Colonies. Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
Good episode. I expect the revolution to be wrapped up by next week or the week after and from there we'll get on to answering the lingering questions and finding a new home.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
...unless everyone dies or something.
I haven't read spoilers, but I cannot believe, at this point, that anyone will be left alive by the end of the series.
I'm convinced that the human race will be reduced down all the way to zero.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
quote:Originally posted by umberhulk:
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: I think Dee just lost it. You could tell from the way she was trying to hold herself together on the Raptor ride back to Galactica. She kept pinning her emotions on different things that let her down, and Earth was the biggie, and when it ended up being a big ball of blah, that was the last thing holding up her will to live.
Makes sense considering that the Sagitaron believed in the literal interperetation of the scriptures. It may have been more personal to Dee than most of Galactica
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
I wonder if it was also about having children. Dee found the jacks, and she said she looked forward to watching Hera. Maybe she was hoping to find a safe place to raise a family, and she gave up on that when Earth turned out to be a nuclear wasteland.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
I'm rooting for the Cylons now. The humans don't deserve to survive.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by 0Megabyte: ...unless everyone dies or something.
I haven't read spoilers, but I cannot believe, at this point, that anyone will be left alive by the end of the series.
I'm convinced that the human race will be reduced down all the way to zero.
They'll never end the series on that much of a downer. I know that BSG can be brutal at times, but this is still just television, after all. The "good guys" will survive in some form or fashion.
quote:Likewise, the revelation about Cally's son seemed a little tacked on. Maybe they have somewhere interesting that they're going to take this, but until they do it seems as though it was only added for the sake of adding drama to a show that already has plenty going for it.
Actually, I kinda saw this coming. Basically, from what I've read from interviews with Moore, it doesn't sound like they decided who the final five were until some time into season 3. Thus, they didn't think of Tyrol being a cylon until after he and Cally were hitched and with a kid. However, previously a big deal had been made about Hera being the ONLY human/cylon halfbreed, and how that made her significant to the future of both races. Having the Tyrol baby be another one kind of cheapened that idea, thus they fixed it.
And speaking of the future of the cylon race. It was a bit odd what 6 said about her and Tigh's baby proving that the cylon race could continue even without resurrection. I mean, can't they just make more cylons in whatever way all the current ones were made? How much do the cylons know (or not know) about their own origins? Besides, evidence would seem to suggest that only a "final five" cylon can reproduce with another cylon, and there aren't exactly enough of them to propagate a species. In fact, since their whole race is only comprised of 7 males and 5 females I don't see how there could be enough genetic variation for sexual reproduction to be a viable option. The humans aren't much better off with only 40 000 people. Let's face it, the future of both races is interbreeding. 1000 years in the future of the BSG universe everyone will probably have some human and cylon blood in them.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shigosei: I wonder if it was also about having children. Dee found the jacks, and she said she looked forward to watching Hera. Maybe she was hoping to find a safe place to raise a family, and she gave up on that when Earth turned out to be a nuclear wasteland.
Perhaps.
I think that was misdirection though, but it could have been because of a mix of reasons.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Dee killed herself because of the stripping away of all the reasons to live, for her.
Family and nation destroyed, loss of Lee, and then the loss of the only dream of hope that kept people looking towards to future. The failure of elder Adama to make good on the promise of Earth, and seeing blasted Earth up close, was the final straw that lead her to utter despair.
She was looking for the time to end her life from that moment on Earth. Ending on a bit of a high note after a date will Lee, which would have lead to nothing in the end, was the perfect time in her mind.
I agree that having Hotdog be the father was to tie up the loose end that was the possibility of a third hybrid baby running around. That would have interfered with the story arc.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
I'm so glad that Laura and Adama have finally shacked up... but what mixed emotions!
Such beauty to see the relationship come to fruition, but so terribly sad to see Laura's own despair. And Adama loves her so much he's willing to travel down that path of despair with her/for her.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
ewwww pruny old people sex.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: I'm rooting for the Cylons now. The humans don't deserve to survive.
And there are people who deserve to live, who are you to decide who does and does not deserve to live and die? And why do you think they don't deserve to survive? Because they worshiped the Greek gods?
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
quote:Likewise, the revelation about Cally's son seemed a little tacked on. Maybe they have somewhere interesting that they're going to take this, but until they do it seems as though it was only added for the sake of adding drama to a show that already has plenty going for it.
wait, what? I need to rewatch this episode.
--j_k
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: I'm rooting for the Cylons now. The humans don't deserve to survive.
And there are people who deserve to live, who are you to decide who does and does not deserve to live and die? And why do you think they don't deserve to survive? Because they worshiped the Greek gods?
For a second there, I really thought you were going to launch into the full Tolkien quote.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
They don't deserve to survive because they've been ridiculously stupid.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by ricree101:
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: I'm rooting for the Cylons now. The humans don't deserve to survive.
And there are people who deserve to live, who are you to decide who does and does not deserve to live and die? And why do you think they don't deserve to survive? Because they worshiped the Greek gods?
For a second there, I really thought you were going to launch into the full Tolkien quote.
I couldn't remember the whole quote Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
quote:Originally posted by ricree101:
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: I'm rooting for the Cylons now. The humans don't deserve to survive.
And there are people who deserve to live, who are you to decide who does and does not deserve to live and die? And why do you think they don't deserve to survive? Because they worshiped the Greek gods?
For a second there, I really thought you were going to launch into the full Tolkien quote.
I couldn't remember the whole quote
quote:Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all end.
I'll admit that I had to look it up too.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Here is a quote from the LOTR soundtrack:
quote:What can can you see on the horizon? Why do the white gulls call? Across the sea a pale moon rises - The ships have come to carry you home.
And all will turn to silver glass A light on the water Grey ships pass Into the west
That would be a good funeral dirge for the grey ships of Battlestar Galactica.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: They don't deserve to survive because they've been ridiculously stupid.
Really? 'Cause from the perspective of a common person in the fleet who doesn't get to hang out with Adama and the top brass and know all that's going on, it doesn't seem all that unreasonable to be strongly opposed to having cylons tinkering with the fleet's jump drives. I don't really blame most colonials for being wary of the "people" who slaughtered their civilization just a few years ago. And apparently Adama and Roslin really let everyone down with the whole Earth thing.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
they're not dead yet and there's still hope for this fictional offshot of the human race to survive, I'ld think that would be the thing to appeal to you, the whole suffer now down a dark tunnel to reach the light on the over end with nothing but faith and hope.
Or did the suicide bombers in season 2 or 3 make you decide to shun humanity?
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: They don't deserve to survive because they've been ridiculously stupid.
Explaim.
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
My poor teenager. She hasn't seen any of season 4 yet and is waiting until after her school musical in March to try and catch up. So she's in the other room listening to me gasp and worse - and threatening me with duct tape LOL.
The twist with Nicky does not surprise me. The Six being definitely pregnant does.... assuming Tigh truly is a Cylon, and I still have doubts on this point.
The seven Cylon models we've seen since the beginning didn't know who the final five were. Only D'Anna - and not all the Threes, just the one individual - saw their faces. Outside of D'Anna, we have only the "knowledge" of the four. Who's to say that some sort of false memories weren't implanted while they were on New Caprica (as that's the most likely time for the Cylons to have gotten a hold of them). That would make Six's baby a hybrid rather than a full Cylon - and hopefully Doc Cottle's full bio-workup that was ordered will discover this.
As for Tigh's flashback in last week's episode with Ellen, why not Shirley Maclaine style reincarnation rather than Cylon resurrection?
And I was really hoping to see Zarek put up some sort of fight after Adama authorized the use of deadly force. I wanted to see Athena actually have to carry out those orders. That was just too easy.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
I was overjoyed to see the return of "The Starbuck and Apollo Show." I was also thrilled to see so many minor characters show up again (Pvt. Jaffey, Specialist Gage, Captain Kelly, Seelix, Laird... the list goes on!). And I can't really fault the mutineers for their rationales.
All in all, a pretty frakking good episode.
Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
One of the best episodes ever. So intense, a bunch of awesome moments. Kara and Lee kicking ass, Tigh and Adama kicking ass, Roslin back in action, sweet jesus. Gaeta and Zarek both need to go out the airlock next week, along with any other high ranking officers who are involved with the insurrection.
I think it would actually be a cool way to setup the rest of the season if Tigh did, in fact, die, and we see him resurrect somewhere with Ellen, and they make their way back to the fleet.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
quote:Originally posted by BryanP: I think it would actually be a cool way to setup the rest of the season if Tigh did, in fact, die, and we see him resurrect somewhere with Ellen, and they make their way back to the fleet.
My thoughts exactly.
Posted by Wonder Dog (Member # 5691) on :
One of the best episodes so far. Very nice. I too would like to see Tigh get shredded by that grenade (it's obvious that Adama doesn't) and show up a few episodes later - or better yet, in a "3rd party" resurrection tank... probably waking up to Ellen's face.
[ January 31, 2009, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: Wonder Dog ]
Posted by swbarnes2 (Member # 10225) on :
quote:Originally posted by ricree101: Likewise, the revelation about Cally's son seemed a little tacked on.
I took that as a plot fix...they probably have interesting things for the Chief to do, like escaping with Roslin, so they foisted the kid on to someone else so we wouldn't be saying "Hey, where's the baby" all the time.
I don't think they did a very good job of that, that the Chief would just give up the child he's been raising, the child who just lost his mother too, to someone the kid doesn't know, and who knows nothing about parenting?
It makes the Chief kind of a cold guy.
Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
I think Tyrol is kind of a cold guy after finding out he's a Cylon. It seems to have detached him in a way.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Well, I think of all the characters, Tyrol has had the most crap come his way since finding out he was a Cylon.
You go from being married with a kid to being a single father skinjob. I think that'd detach a lot of people.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
I still wonder in what way they are Cylons and not humans. If there are no solid state devices embedded in their brains, then how are they programmed as Cylons? I just can't stand this show any more, because it does not make sense. The Cylons are the real humans, and the Capricans are a bunch of racists. Even if they were the victims of attempted genocide. They're still racists, and probably drove the Cylons to desperate extremes.
Posted by Dobbie (Member # 3881) on :
Is this show different from the original Battlestar Galactica?
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
Dobbie - Yes.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
Ron - yes, they are racists.
But keep in mind this is still only four years after the nearly complete human genocide. Which was then followed by nearly endless attempts by the Cylons to kill these few scared survivors.
In real life, the genocide of the Jews was enough to, well, create Israel, among many other things.
I don't think it's fair to expect these people, most of them, to accept the Cylons. I don't think it's fair to expect them to forget New Caprica after two years, or the endless battles, or the Colonies, after only four years.
I know that if a group of people did to my people what the Cylons did to the humans... I'd have a hard time forgiving. My distrust of them would take a long tmie in healing, and even if I did eventually accept some of them, I'd feel, deep down, some level of hatred my entire life.
Add to that a leadership that then accepts help from them... it'd be like a straggling band of Jews being asked by their leaders to accept Nazi help.
The insurrection is reasonable.
However, in this situation, it's tragic. It's bringing out the very worst qualities of humans, but in a situation like this, you cannot expect humans to remain calm and cheerful. After years of keeping silent, there comes a time when people cannot stay silent any longer, and the combined hatred within them will finally lash out.
The tragedy is, that lashing out, in this case, will very well mean the final end of the human race...
---
I think I'm on Gaeta's side. Well, that's not really true, because I know the characters and care for them, and see enough and am detached enough to know who the heroes are.
But if I was there? I'd be putting my gun in Gaeta's camp, if I know anything about me. I just know it.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: I still wonder in what way they are Cylons and not humans.
I haven't seen any humans shove a cable into their arm and reprogram a computer with it. Or get resurrected, although Kara's a bit of a mystery there. (and did she just admit that she "died once"? wth?) Maybe all humans could do both those things and they just don't know how to use their body to do it, just as the not-yet-activated cylons didn't know they could do these things. But from what we've seen so far I'd say it's more probable that cylons and humans are indeed different.
---
About this episode: as much as I liked Adama's and Tigh's "last stand", I can't see the reasoning behind it. Once you're out there in the ship what are a few people in the hangar going to do? Sound the alarm? Gaeta already knows there's something wrong and he's sending ships to intercept. Eh, what don't we forgive for a good dramatic moment? Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wonder Dog: I too would like to see Tigh get shredded by that grenade (it's obvious that Adama doesn't) and show up a few episodes later - or better yet, in a "3rd party" resurrection tank...
Unless they *both* get killed and *both* show up a few episodes later...
Why is it "obvious" that he won't? Forgive me, as I'm new to the series.
And, for the record, it looked like a flashbang rather than a frag grenade.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nighthawk: And, for the record, it looked like a flashbang rather than a frag grenade.
Yeah, that's what I thought, too.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
It's obvious Adama isn't killed because the preview for next week showed him bound and blindfolded in a launch tube.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Even if they were the victims of attempted genocide. They're still racists, and probably drove the Cylons to desperate extremes.
By having no contact with them for like 30 years? I'm not really sure how that drove them to kill 50 billion people, and I can certainly understand why many of the 40 000 survivors would harbor quite an intense hatred after that.
And as for the cylons being human, just because they're flesh and blood doesn't make them the same. I don't see why the programming is a hard idea to swallow considering that this is science fiction, after all. Clearly the humanoid cylons are products of highly advanced bio-engineering.
[ February 01, 2009, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: neo-dragon ]
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by neo-dragon: By having no contact with them for like 30 years? I'm not really sure how that drove them to kill 50 billion people, and I can certainly understand why many of the 40 000 survivors would harbor quite an intense hatred after that.
And even more than that, there's the method the Cylons used to wipe out the colonies in the first place. I mean, they infiltrated and tampered with all of the defensive equipment so that it would disable on command. And now the people of the fleet are being told to let the Cylons at their FTL drives, which are the one thing that allowed them to keep ahead of the Cylons and stay alive.
As a viewer, we have the benefit of knowing that there was, in fact, a Cylon civil war that sent the rebels to the fleet. To everyone else, with information that is even more limited than that available to those aboard Galactica, this whole thing screams trap.
What I don't get is what Tom Zarek's endgame is supposed to be here. If he succeeded, he would be left with a basestar full of angry alienated Cylons, and the only serious human military ship would be at a tiny fraction of its full combat readiness until the mutineers consolidated their hold and replaced those who died or refused to cooperate. The timing of the plan makes sense, but I'm just having trouble seeing what useful place it would lead to for Zarek.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
Silly Gaeta. You can't stop the signal.
--j_k
Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
Ugh! I am glad to see this series coming to an end. The intensity of the up and down every week is alot to handle, especially in these hard times. You can definately see the spiral effect happening. It will be interesting to see how all this finally plays out.
What I don't get is that everyone accepted the alliance when they were heading to earth. If earth had been a pristine beautiful place, do you think that they would have just held hands and happily integrated/adjusted to their new home? Hmmm..
Overall, both Adama and Roslin are pragmatists. They believe in the survival of the human race. Now that the dream of Earth is gone, they see the necessity of crossing the enemy lines, forgiving those that deserve it, and moving forward. Notice how after WW2 we didn't nuke Germany into cinders. The cylons may not be completely human, but they are close enough with some interesting upgrades to make the survival of humanity possible on any planet. Regardless of the circumstances, most of the fleet wants peace. Those that sowed the insurrection need to put up against the wall and shot. Not because they rebelled, but because they have already chose not to survive.
As for the Jews accepting Nazi help, they did, alot. Not every Nazi wanted to kill the Jews. On top of that, we have benefitted greatly from the advances in technology that German scientists created under the Nazi regime. Anyone heard of the space program. That is exactly why Gaeta and Zarek deserve to die, because they are so short sighted that they would rather destroy the human race than see past the sins of the past to forge a better future.
Besides if Zarek and Gaeta get what they want, where are they going to go? Neither of them have the battle experience to protect the fleet when Cavil's forces show up. Their way of thinking will doom the fleet to annihilation.
Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
quote:Originally posted by ricree101: What I don't get is what Tom Zarek's endgame is supposed to be here. If he succeeded, he would be left with a basestar full of angry alienated Cylons, and the only serious human military ship would be at a tiny fraction of its full combat readiness until the mutineers consolidated their hold and replaced those who died or refused to cooperate. The timing of the plan makes sense, but I'm just having trouble seeing what useful place it would lead to for Zarek.
Exactly. Zarek isn't thinking. He is a short-sighted narrow minded fool. Looks like next week we'll see that. Compared to the basestar, the Galatica is completely out gunned at the moment. All he wants is power and will go to any lengths to get it. He can't see beyond that goal.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
And that's my biggest problem with him as a character. He's sometimes referred to as a man of conscience, but as far as I can tell he doesn't believe in anything.
Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: And that's my biggest problem with him as a character. He's sometimes referred to as a man of conscience, but as far as I can tell he doesn't believe in anything.
I think that's the point.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by ReddwarfVII: As for the Jews accepting Nazi help, they did, alot. Not every Nazi wanted to kill the Jews.
Uh, no. Not every German was a Nazi, and not every German wanted to kill the Jews. But yes, every Nazi did.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
The Nazi party originally was one that embraced a fascist form of socialism, where the state and certain industries were in collusion. Not everyone who originally signed on to this political philosophy agreed with Hitler's penchant for blaming the Jews for everything bad that happened to the German economy. It did eventually develop in this direction, of course, where to be a Nazi meant to be a fanatical follower of Hitler and his denunciations of Jews.
I think, Lisa, that you are essentially correct, but there probably were (at least at one point) some Nazis who did not necessarily want to kill Jews.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Lisa: Oskar Schindler wanted to kill Jews?
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Please, let's not derail this awesome BSG thread with a fight about Nazis.
I'm really looking forward to the next episode - I hope that there's a space battle, we haven't seen one of those in a while. Need more marine action too.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by BryanP:
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: And that's my biggest problem with him as a character. He's sometimes referred to as a man of conscience, but as far as I can tell he doesn't believe in anything.
I think that's the point.
The point was for him to be an ideologue without ideas? To be clear, I'm not saying that it's a flaw with him as a person, but with him as a character. He's more of a plot device than anything else.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I have yet to find the newest episode via torrent, anyone know where I can find it?
Posted by Mike (Member # 55) on :
Try this site. Be careful, though: I hear it might be harmful to your computer.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Uh, no. Not every German was a Nazi, and not every German wanted to kill the Jews. But yes, every Nazi did.
Not a particularly useful distinction for certain generations of Germans since:
quote: On December 1, 1936, Hitler decreed "The Law concerning the Hitler Youth" which mandated that all young Germans (excluding Jews) would "be educated physically, intellectually and morally in the spirit of National Socialism" though the Hitler Youth from the age of ten onward.
...
Parents who prevented their children from joining the Hitler Youth were subject to heavy prison sentences. Membership thus grew to nearly six million.
This membership probably included the current pope and would lead to such outliers as John Rabe who was a Nazi who saved tens of thousands of Chinese during the Japanese occupation.
Posted by Wonder Dog (Member # 5691) on :
Can we just call someone a Hitler already and move on? Or better yet, spin off a new thread...
Back to the point: I too hope for awesome space battles next episode, but I don't think we'll see any for a little while...
Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
Okay guys. Let's keep this back in the context of BSG. My point, while historically accurate Lisa (if you don't think so then spend some time on the history channel. Both Shindler's List and Valkyrie illustrate that not all Nazi's, not just the German people, were anti-semite.Not dissing you, just saying that I disagree with your statement.) was that WW2 is good illustration where conflicts of the past can be put aside to forge ahead to a better future.
It was the poor world leadership post WW1 that wanted to punish Germany that created the environment in Germany to bring Hitler to power. Gaeta and Zarek are showing that they themselves are just as short sighted as those world leaders post WW1. Zarek's misunderstanding of the benefits of maintaining an alliance with the cylon, even though he is a power hungry idiot, is understandable because for the most part he has been keep out of the loop. Gaeta for me however is the worst of the two betrayals because he has not been out of the loop. He is letting his feelings and his "woe is me" attitude blind him to the very real advantages to human survival that the cylons bring to the table.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I liked the feel of this past episode. It's something that has been missing for quite some time now, but at the same time, I'm getting plot whiplash from all the back and forths recently (to say nothing of the multitude over the length of the whole show). I think if a BSG virgin watched the whole thing from start to finish, by now they'd just say "what the hell?" and might even stop watching.
I don't even care about Cally's son and Hot Dog. It couldn't possibly matter less to me. I almost didn't even care that the remnants of humanity just went to hell in a handbasket just to sate a couple peoples' short sighted hatreds and death wishes. It was just nice to see some good ole fashioned fast paced shoot 'em up fun.
And frankly, when Kara bust onto the scene and started mowing people down in the bay, I thought to myself "FINALLY, someone who acts realistically instead of trying to talk her way out of it." I'm sorry but in that given situation, with people settling old scores and everyone is trigger happy, you don't stand around for a therapy session, you shoot, see if they'll listen, then you shoot someone else. I don't imagine in a billion years I'd ever be in such a situation, and I'd probably be shaking so bad I'd hit the wall rather than my target, but logically it's what I'd do.
As much as what Gaeta and Zarek are doing is wrong, Adama and Roslin were wrong too. You can't just keep expecting people to take everything you do on faith, not when you pin their fears of the Cylons as your hold to power for so long, and then pin their fear of not surviving on trusting those same Cylons. You have to explain it to them, and neither of them ever took the time to do that. They used to do that. When things first started out, they got pep talks. I'm not at all surprised that it came to a mutiny, but I think it could have been avoided.
If I was just some random person in the fleet, I think personally I'd be more willing to go ahead and ally myself with the renegade Cylons if it meant a chance at survival. Hating the people that destroyed my people wouldn't get in the way of making sure my people still survived.
I have no idea how they're going to wrap this thing up, especially in a manner that befits the praise the actors have showered on the last few episodes. So long as they at least pretend to tie up some loose ends, and Lee and Kara shoot some more stuff, and damned Gaeta and Zarek get shoved out an airlock, I'll be perfectly satisfied no matter what else happens.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Hrrm. It seems that the episode number of wikipedia is different from its listing on Torrentspy.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: I still wonder in what way they are Cylons and not humans. If there are no solid state devices embedded in their brains, then how are they programmed as Cylons? I just can't stand this show any more, because it does not make sense. The Cylons are the real humans, and the Capricans are a bunch of racists. Even if they were the victims of attempted genocide. They're still racists, and probably drove the Cylons to desperate extremes.
I cannot believe you, you argue that the Cylons are the "true" humans simply because they don't actually have a hard disk platter in their brains? To quote the Great George Carlin, may he rest in peace, ahem "What!? Are you ****ing Stu***!?" Seriously, does the concept of organic computing not enter your thought processes at all? Did you not READ Xenocide or Children of the Mind whichever one Jane manages to store most of her code/database/memories within living TREES!?
Seriously, Learn to Play.
And next I suppose your going to claim that the legions of dublicate Models of Cylons is just a trick of the light. HELLO *does the check if person is really blind hand waving* Earth to Ron, oh wait, your allegedly christian, Hubbard to Ron they're obviously bioengineered machines, the question is were the Humans engineered to but don't know it yet?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Um....Blayne? Dude. Fiction. Let it go, man.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I take my fiction seriously. With Cornflakes!
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Switch to caffeine free cornflakes.
Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: As much as what Gaeta and Zarek are doing is wrong, Adama and Roslin were wrong too. You can't just keep expecting people to take everything you do on faith, not when you pin their fears of the Cylons as your hold to power for so long, and then pin their fear of not surviving on trusting those same Cylons. You have to explain it to them, and neither of them ever took the time to do that. They used to do that. When things first started out, they got pep talks. I'm not at all surprised that it came to a mutiny, but I think it could have been avoided.
This is where I was trying to go with the whole Nazi metaphor actually. Thanks Lyrhawn!
Oh and Blayne....uh....okay.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Blayne, in reality, you cannot program organic brains reliably (even in science ficion). You can maybe create a Jason Bourne identity using hypnosis and other techniques that in effect create a multiple personality disorder. But again, this could never be done reliably, and certainly not on a massive scale. And if this were the method used, then the Cylons could become true humans with the appropriate psychotherapy.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Blayne, in reality, you cannot program organic brains reliably (even in science ficion).
That statement makes no sense. Why is it any less possible than FTL drives?
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Blayne, in reality, you cannot program organic brains reliably (even in science ficion). You can maybe create a Jason Bourne identity using hypnosis and other techniques that in effect create a multiple personality disorder. But again, this could never be done reliably, and certainly not on a massive scale. And if this were the method used, then the Cylons could become true humans with the appropriate psychotherapy.
seriously Ron, learn to play. If we can accept FTL travel on faith from a scifi show we can most assurdely accept programming organic brains, or are you going to claim the cylon centurians are also "human", their brains are also A) brains and B) programmed, same with cylon fighter craft.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Blayne, in reality, you cannot program organic brains reliably (even in science ficion). You can maybe create a Jason Bourne identity using hypnosis and other techniques that in effect create a multiple personality disorder. But again, this could never be done reliably, and certainly not on a massive scale. And if this were the method used, then the Cylons could become true humans with the appropriate psychotherapy.
I don't see why not. It's all just a series of electrical impulses and chemicals. Incredibly complex sure, but impossible? I doubt it.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: I still wonder in what way they are Cylons and not humans. If there are no solid state devices embedded in their brains, then how are they programmed as Cylons? I just can't stand this show any more, because it does not make sense. The Cylons are the real humans, and the Capricans are a bunch of racists. Even if they were the victims of attempted genocide. They're still racists, and probably drove the Cylons to desperate extremes.
The Cylons are not the same as Humans. The Cylons, while a people and nation, are still alien to Humanity. Evidence: They are linked at all times (or were) to the Cylon Data Stream, able to syncronize with each member of their model line and to the greater Cylon commonality. But it wasn't like the Borg of Star Trek, the Cylons are not forced to link and most choose to remain independent in an attempt to simulate the real Humans, as part of their God's dictates.
The Cylons are also physically very different. While no solid state instrumentality exists in them they do have bio-mechanical functions that no Human can do: Link either physically with a wire through the arm, or by touch alone with the link connection liquid of the Data Stream. They also have the power of simulating their environment via Projection...an aspect of their psycology that Athena said she purposely avoids to make her more of a "person" and less of a Cylon.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Switch to caffeine free cornflakes.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
The thing about science fiction--at least good science fiction--is that it must be close enough to what is known to be science fact so that it does not make suspension of disbelief too difficult to maintain. I just do not see from the story line any way that the humanoid Cylons can really be any different from humans.
As for FTL drive, some physicists will say it is impossible to exceed the speed of light in a vacuum, but that only begs the possibility of exceptions being discovered in the future when knowledge of physics advances further. If worm holes or sequential teleportational jumps through some higher dimensions turn out to be possible, they would enable effective FTL travel, even if actual velocity does not exceed lightspeed.
What gets me about the BatGal humanoid Cylons is that there is no reasonable way they can be different from humans.
By the way, I thought the humanoid Cylons were much stronger than regular humans. Or did that kind of fade away and get lost with the general degeneration of the story line? Strange as it may seem, that would not be too incredible for belief, because animals like Chimpanzees are several times stronger than humans because of the kind of muscle tissue they have under conscious control. But a few seasons ago the human characters were afraid of the super-strength of the humanoid Cylons--with apparently good reason--but now we have to wonder why the XO and some of the other recently revealed Cylons do not and have never exhibited any super-strength. Of course, we all know it is because that was inconvenient, so the writers let it slide. But that is the kind of thing they deserve to be called on. Science fiction fans expect better.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
Ron, seriously. BSG Cylons can put their hands into that liquid and interface with computers. Humans can't. Cylons can stick wires in their arms (without any implanted jacks, because those would have shown up easily as a way to distinguish between Cylons and Humans) and interface with computers. Cylons can do that Projection thing. Humans can't.
Telperion just wrote that. Did you not read that post, or what? How can you, given those differences, say that "there is no reasonable way they can be different from humans"? What's your definition of "reasonable"?
The FTL thing is a reasonable point, though. What they have isn't in any way what we would call FTL travel. It seems to be more of a large scale teleportation.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
[QUOT By the way, I thought the humanoid Cylons were much stronger than regular humans. Or did that kind of fade away and get lost with the general degeneration of the story line? Strange as it may seem, that would not be too incredible for belief, because animals like Chimpanzees are several times stronger than humans because of the kind of muscle tissue they have under conscious control. But a few seasons ago the human characters were afraid of the super-strength of the humanoid Cylons--with apparently good reason--but now we have to wonder why the XO and some of the other recently revealed Cylons do not and have never exhibited any super-strength. Of course, we all know it is because that was inconvenient, so the writers let it slide. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Except for an offhand comment by head-six, was there that much buildup about humanoid cylons being hugely stronger than humans? After all, Adama did beat one in the miniseries, though it wasn't easy for him and the cylon was weaker than normal. Also, at the end of the first season, Starbuck fought six, and while she was somewhat overpowered it totally one sided.
I'm sure I'm forgetting some things here, but on the whole I don't think that they ever really built up humanoid cylons as that much stronger than humans.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa:
The FTL thing is a reasonable point, though. What they have isn't in any way what we would call FTL travel. It seems to be more of a large scale teleportation.
Which, of course, isn't possible based on our current scientific knowledge either.
I really don't get what's so hard about accepting cylons as essentially being "machines" made out of flesh and blood. I know of at least one other physiological difference that no one has mentioned yet. In the mini-series it was revealed that they are more susceptible to certain kinds of radiation. Something about it degrading silica pathways in their artificial brains. It's how Adama exposed a Leoben as the first known humanoid cylon, and it also has something to do with how Baltar's cylon tester works. So, for what it's worth, there's at least some similarity between the mechanical brains of the old cylons from the first war and the humanoid models.
As for the cylon super strength, I don't know that it was ever confirmed so much as speculated. The only possible examples I can recall are Leoben breaking free of handcuffs, and when Torry backhanded Cally right before killing her and she seemed to be knocked pretty far back. However, both of those things are arguably within the realm of regular human strength under the right circumstances. Back before Boomer was "activated" there was also a comment made about how she appeared to be the only pilot on the rotation who wasn't getting tired, and I think Helo commented on the other Sharon's stamina as well when they were stranded on Caprica. So if anything, cylons probably have greater physical endurance than humans, but I don't think that there's any conclusive evidence that they are significantly stronger.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Its not that it faded its that the plot hasn't required them to show again that they HAVE super strength.
Armed men with guns about to rape Athena (again) what good is arm wrestling them gonna do?
Athena was also able to take significantly higher doses of radiation from that nebula then the humans, AND Baltar had a means using a nuclear warhead of telling a Cylon apart from a Human (which worked, we just don't know what is said about Ellen)
It may not be possible from a typical blood test, or a physical examination (unless your screwing one and then its spine lights up all red like) to tell one apart from a Human but damnit there ARE differences, obvious ones that the show has shown us over and over again.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by ricree101: Except for an offhand comment by head-six, was there that much buildup about humanoid cylons being hugely stronger than humans?
Remember when Tory backhanded Cally across the room? That didn't look like normal human strength to me.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
neo-dragon, if the humanoid Cylons had "silica pathways" in their "artificial" brains, then that means they had silicon-based solid state or printed circuit devices in their heads. If that were the case, then there would have been no need for Baltar to come up with some exotic means of detecting Cylons. An MRI machine would do it, probably even just a simple X-Ray machine.
How could they be more resistant to radiation--unless their flesh is not comprised of cells built on DNA and other organic molecules?
Once you start noticing the holes, the whole weave comes unraveled. BatGal is not science fiction at all, it is just fantasy, and not very well conceived and plotted, at that. Even fantasy is internally consistent!
One thing might have salvaged my regard for the show, at least a little--and that would have been in the episode where they were on earth, walking around in the devastated wasteland, they might have had a cameo appearance by Charleton Heston. I would have loved that, even without showing a toppled Statue of Liberty.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Ron, you do know they found SILICON based shrimp right?
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: neo-dragon, if the humanoid Cylons had "silica pathways" in their "artificial" brains, then that means they had silicon-based solid state or printed circuit devices in their heads. If that were the case, then there would have been no need for Baltar to come up with some exotic means of detecting Cylons. An MRI machine would do it, probably even just a simple X-Ray machine.
Well, I don't know enough about neurology to say for certain whether or not it's theoretically possible for an organic brain to incorporate silica pathways without them being visible on simple scans, but apparently you do, so... *shrug*
quote: How could they be more resistant to radiation--unless their flesh is not comprised of cells built on DNA and other organic molecules?
Actually, they're less resistant to certain types, at least. However, it was speculated that Sharon might be able to endure more of the intense radiation that the pilots were exposed to in the episode where they had to make the jumps through that highly radioactive area, but that might have been an assumption based on cylon's apparently superior stamina rather than a specific resistance to radiation. Again, not my area of expertise, but I wouldn't assume that all organic matter reacts to radiation in the same way. It was an aspect of their neurology (I'm not even 100% certain that the term used was "silica pathways") that was affected.
quote: Once you start noticing the holes, the whole weave comes unraveled. BatGal is not science fiction at all, it is just fantasy, and not very well conceived and plotted, at that. Even fantasy is internally consistent!
[/QB]
Frankly, you're over thinking it, and I don't know how you enjoy any sci-fi or fantasy if things that minor ruin it for you. You complain about internal consistency but the only contradictions you mention are based on real-world science. All sci-fi takes for granted things that are not possible based on our current understanding of science, otherwise we would actually have warp drives, time machines, lightsabers, and thinking computers.
In fact, why are you even posting in this thread if you think that BSG is such a bad show?
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
OK neo-dragon, I will admit I might swallow some of this self-contradictory and irrational stuff, at least with only mild nausea, if it were not for the outrageous story line itself. It seems to be the space opera equivalent of Lost. Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Unless of course the stuff is actually not irrational and self contradictory.
Personally i would have preffered less ancient cosmonughts and something more along the lines of live action gundam, you know, they actually find Earth with us still alive and kicking, but in the future obviously as Battlestar Galactica where they went on 1980's earth was terrible.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: It may not be possible from a typical blood test, or a physical examination (unless your screwing one and then its spine lights up all red like) to tell one apart from a Human but damnit there ARE differences, obvious ones that the show has shown us over and over again.
Don't bother, Blayne. I suspect that Ron simply wants the Cylons to be the true humans because they're monotheists.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I knew it! Ron's a Satanist!
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Ok dudes... check this out. I don't know how real this is, but my cousin who works in the entertainment industry in NYC sent this to me... allegedly the script to "Caprica"!
I've known mormons who've gotten into BSG because it has some mormon undertones written into it. Pro-Cylonism being based on their monotheism is hardly unexpected.
Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
Taking the conversation in a different route for a moment, I don't think that the Final Five cylons are related in any way to the colonial cylons. The discovery of Earth makes it seem that the bio-mechanical technology that makes up the cylons is every bit as old as the colonies and was probably originally created on Kobol? It would make sense then that the cylon technology would be lost to the 12 colonies when the 13th tribe left for Earth, thereby taking the technology with them. You could even surmise that this is probably want the war on Kobol was fought over. The Gods of Kobol were cylon because they had the ability to resurrect and the regular humans didn't. The humans wanted the technology for them too and fought a war to get it. The survivors parted ways leaving a desimated Kobol behind. 12 tribes of humans left to form the 12 colonies and 1 tribe of cylons left to settle earth.
It would make sense then that after a couple of thousand years that the technology would once again be discovered in the colonies, thus creating the colonial cylons. However, I still don't see exactly where the final five will tie in with the colonials. From the looks of earth, the cylons were reproducing just fine without resurrection. Maybe that had become forgotten tech for them too until Ellen Tigh recreated it in time to save Saul and their friends from destruction.
See what I am getting at is that it is looking like both sets of cylons evolved from the same processes, but indepenent of each other on totally separate worlds. Hmmmm......
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Mmmm... I like this hypothesis...
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
Maybe. There is certainly little doubt now that the final five predate the colonial Cylons. However, we know that there had to be at least some interaction between the colonial cylons and the five before the series started.
My guess is that the remnants of the Earth cylons helped the colonial cylons move towards the humanoid models. From Razor, we can see that they were already working towards humanoid models even as the first war ended, but we are told that these were a dead end. My guess is that after the war they somehow came to the attention of the Earth cylons, and with help recreated the Earth technology for their own use.
The question, then, is why they were separated afterwards, to the point where the mere mention of the 5 is taboo and the image of them is erased from everyone's mind. And also, how does this fit in with the life of Col Tigh, whose insertion into the colonies either predates or is contemporary with the war?
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Blayne, that was Lost the TV series, not Paradise Lost, the epic poem by Milton.
Yes, I know you were trying to be both sarcastic and satirical, but you didn't do it very well.
Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
Interesting article about the Cylons on ScifiWire. This is the SciFi channel's official news outlet. No spoilers, just philosophy.
See the article by clicking here. Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:And let's not forget, there are still billions of main-force Cylons out there, waiting for a chance at revenge!
That's gotta be a typo or a careless number that just got tossed out, right? I was under the impression that Cavil's (or whoever is in control now that he is perma-dead) fleet was all that remained of the cylons besides the single rebel basestar. It didn't seem as though there were more than a dozen (or two at most) ships left. I'd probably put the cylons closer to a couple hundred thousand, and I can't see it going much over a million.
Of course, things change if we assume that there was a large portion of the population left behind on some other world (one or more of the colonies, kobol, new caprica, the cylon homeworld, etc). That seems more plausible to me, but it would seem to contradict a lot of what we've seen the past couple seasons.
Edit:
Also, I still maintain that everything we've seen of Caprica suggests that it could still support a small population as long as they restricted themselves to out of the way locations for a few generations until the radiation died down to acceptable levels. There'd still be a higher than ideal level of cancer and other problems, but it shouldn't be enough to prevent the population from expanding.
The only real barrier was the Cylon occupation preventing anything more than scattered and hidden pockets of people, but we were told that they pulled out. Realistically, there's probably a pocket of people trying to build themselves a future on post apocalyptic Caprica. That could actually make for a decent miniseries, in my opinion.
Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
I'm sure that this won't play into the series in the remaining Eps, but why the heck is no one suggesting Kobol? Except for the heebee geebees thing going on, the place was a practical untouched paradise completely healed from any nuclear wars from when cylon and humans went their way the first time. With the upgraded cylon ftl couldn't get back there in a few months or a year or so? I mean come on. Kobol. Duh! Kobol already is what Earth should have been in the first place.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I have that thought every single episode.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
Too close to the other Cylon faction? That's the only thing I can think of. We don't know how far from Earth they are, but given the number of jumps it took to reach the resurrection hub, I suspect that they might be a long way away. Since they don't know exactly where Earth is, there's no telling how long it will take to find them (well, 7 episodes at most, but you get my point).
Kobol, on the other hand, could well have some sort of listening post, even if there isn't a direct Cylon presence. All in all, it isn't safe as long as they are on the run from the Cylons.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
I thought part of the reason they were looking for Earth was to find other humans. There's also the problem, as ricree pointed out, that the Cylons know about Kobol.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Question: Does anyone know what the Colonial Great Seal really is? The winged thing. There are only ten blades/feathers, as apposed to 12, so I'm doubtful that the blades are supposed to represend the 12 Colonies/Tribes.
Any ideas?
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
The dream sequence was a lame excuse for them to show the execution in last week's previews. Other than that, I thought the episode was well done.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Great episode. I'm glad justice was finally done.
I was honestly hoping we'd find out Gaeta was actually the 5th cylon at some point, which would have been super-awesome irony.
What the frak were the huge claw marks in the FTL room?
Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
Fantastic episode. So, so glad Hulu is putting these up at midnight.
Gotta say, seeing the FTL room/Engine Room. Very cool. Have no idea how that would work, but it looked dang cool. I watched the end of the scene with Tyrol again and I would say those are stress marks. I don't think this ship was meant to take this much of a pounding for this long without major repairs. I think that the Galatica is going to be a victim before the end of the show.
Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
COOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLL! The preview for next week shows the return of Ellen Tigh. So she resurrects, but where?
Posted by aeolusdallas (Member # 11455) on :
It looked like an upright cylon resurrection creche. With a centurion guarding it.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
When I saw the "claw marks" my first thought was just battle damage, but why would they bother making it that significant in the camera shot if it wasn't, you know, significant. Seriously though, if there's some FTL Monster on Galactica, I'm going to explode.
That was a fitting end to the insurrection, but there's still a pretty big "Where do we go from here?" feeling that's been put off for the last couple episodes. I have to think that the failed coup would probably bring a great number of people in line who were against Adama's plan before. I can't imagine Ellen will just stumble onto Earth and the fleet, which to me says that they get all the ships in the fleet upgraded and they jumped to Ellen rather than the other way around.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
I think there's a giant T-Rex loose on Galactica.
Then again, I only started watching the show four episodes ago, so what do I know?
I hate that Hulu doesn't show next weeks' preview.
Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: can't imagine Ellen will just stumble onto Earth and the fleet, which to me says that they get all the ships in the fleet upgraded and they jumped to Ellen rather than the other way around.
Maybe Anders will die and lead Ellen back to the fleet.
The last two episodes combined are one of the greatest 2 hours of TV ever.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nighthawk: I think there's a giant T-Rex loose on Galactica.
Then again, I only started watching the show four episodes ago, so what do I know?
I hate that Hulu doesn't show next weeks' preview.
The sci-fi channel shows both the preview for next week on the BSG main page, but also a little 45 second snippet of next week as well which was pretty neat.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
Yeah, I jsut found that, thanks.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: What the frak were the huge claw marks in the FTL room?
Velociraptor claw marks. No, actually, I'm pretty sure they were some sort of stress fractures - Adama found a crack over his bathroom doorway that was very similar. The ship's old and beaten up, and I'm guessing repairing interior walls isn't a huge priority.
My only question is how soon Lee will become VP - five minutes into next week? Ten? Casually mentioned at the beginning? The murder of the Quorum was a pretty stunning move, really. I'm also pretty glad Captain Kelly strayed from the mutiny. I've always liked him - and there needs to be more people in the CIC after losing Gaeta and Dee.
Good episode. I'm really looking forward to Sam waking up and knowing the whole plan, and the return of Ellen. The practicalities of her downloading are currently boggling my mind. When did this happen? Pre-hub destruction? Where is she? On some super-secret resurrection ship? This is getting good. Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
I wonder what happened to Head Six/Baltar? We haven't seen them in a very long time. Wonder if they'll show again and what they were...
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by Carrie: [QUOTE]When did this happen? Pre-hub destruction? Where is she? On some super-secret resurrection ship? This is getting good.
I'd assume it happened right after she died. So the question is indeed where has she been all this time? The final five obviously must not resurrect among the significant seven. I always suspected that they resurrect on Earth.
quote: I wonder what happened to Head Six/Baltar? We haven't seen them in a very long time. Wonder if they'll show again and what they were...
Yeah, their existence is a major plot point that I certainly hope they're going to give a satisfactory explanation for.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
quote:Originally posted by Alcon: I wonder what happened to Head Six/Baltar? We haven't seen them in a very long time. Wonder if they'll show again and what they were...
From some of the previews, Head Six is supposed to have been in several of these episodes - unless there's some other scantily-clad version of Six that only Baltar can see floating around. I'm waiting to see some of the deleted scenes, since I think they might elaborate upon Baltar's changing attitude towards his religion.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
The slaughter of the Quorum shocked me. I thought he'd imprison them, I thought he'd strong arm them, but "kill 'em" was NOT what I was expecting. Killing Roslin made sense, as did killing Adama, because Gaeta felt that they were guilty and he was restoring justice and democracy. Killing the Quorum didn't fit the mold, but I should have known that for Zarek it was in character. I was really hoping he'd changed after the time they spent on New Caprica.
Head Six was just there two or three episodes ago. They showed her sitting next to Baltar in his little shrine area of the ship. I can't remember if it was just before the coup or during it or when, but it was recently.
I loved James Callis' acting as Baltar doing the religious broadcast the last time. He looked totally unenthused, going through the motions, and actually fairly scornful of the people that worship him. And then later he put words to his body language. I think Baltar is probably more trapped than most any character in the show right now.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
When Zarek walked out, I was like, "Oh, man, they are so dead."
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
pretty good.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
anyone else liked Baltar learning a bit more responsibility?
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: When Zarek walked out, I was like, "Oh, man, they are so dead."
Same here. And when I saw the faces of the two marines just outside the room it was confirmed.
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: anyone else liked Baltar learning a bit more responsibility?
It was about time, the damned series is gonna end soon!
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
Baltar will find some way to screw it up. He always does.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
People are still watching this show? My viewership ended when they found Earth. For me this is BG 1980 updated with a different storyline. I might watch the last episode with hopes they will explain what happened to Earth. Right now its all about how many people can we kill off and for no good reason.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
My vote's still on "giant invisible T-Rex".
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
And you're commmenting in a thread you don't care about... why?
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by Occasional: People are still watching this show? My viewership ended when they found Earth. For me this is BG 1980 updated with a different storyline. I might watch the last episode with hopes they will explain what happened to Earth. Right now its all about how many people can we kill off and for no good reason.
Sounds like you have the Dee mentality. Earth wasn't what we expected, things look bleak, time to check out. Of course, Dee didn't have the benefit of knowing that resolution is less than half a season away. And I really don't get how this resembles BSG 1980 in any way, in which the colonials find a fully populated present day Earth and live among us incognito to foil the cylon's attempt to take over. I guess you really did stop watching after they arrived
P.S. If you want answers about Earth, you probably do want to watch the next episode.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Baltar will find some way to screw it up. He always does.
Yeah, he's good at that. The question is, are the writers gonna allow him to screw it up again.
quote:Originally posted by Occasional: People are still watching this show?
Incredible, huh?
quote:For me this is BG 1980 updated with a different storyline.
Some of us didn't see the original series.
quote:I might watch the last episode with hopes they will explain what happened to Earth. Right now its all about how many people can we kill off and for no good reason.
Well, I felt they had good reasons to kill those that they did. Take your reaction and multiply it by a million to see how Dee felt when Earth didn't pay out and you'll understand why she did it. And Zarek and Gaeta? They were pretty much looking for it.
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
quote:Originally posted by neo-dragon: And I really don't get how this resembles BSG 1980 in any way, in which the colonials find a fully populated present day Earth and live among us incognito to foil the cylon's attempt to take over.
Aw man. I never saw BSG80. Spoiler!! Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by Occasional: People are still watching this show? My viewership ended when they found Earth. For me this is BG 1980 updated with a different storyline. I might watch the last episode with hopes they will explain what happened to Earth. Right now its all about how many people can we kill off and for no good reason.
Really? Where's the children able to jump 80 feet?
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: anyone else liked Baltar learning a bit more responsibility?
That was one of my favorite parts. It was nice to see him decide to help other people, even when there wasn't anything in it for himself.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
My favorite part of BSG80 was when Apollo and Starbuck fly into Earth's atmosphere, they see the highway in Los Angeles. They're gobsmacked at the skill we Earth folk have to be able to drive cars so close together in such a tight formation, without any collisions.
Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
As far as Ellen goes, she would have been resurrected way prior to the Resurrection hub being blown, but I can't imagine that has anything to do with it. I really don't her that the two cylon societies are sharing their resurrection locations. The final five may be just that, the final five surviving cylons of the 13th tribe and they may have shown the colonial cylons how to resurrect and take on humanoid form, but I am still not seeing them sharing a resurrection hub.
Well here's a brain trip, not all the final five worked with the cylons, just Ellen. Maybe part of their rebellion against the colonies was also to wipe their memories of her and the other four so that they could destroy them. Possible she programmed them all with a fail safe so that they couldn't do to the colonies what the other cylons did to Earth? I don't know.
No, none of the BSG principals have been cast in Caprica to my knowledge. I am still thinking that the tech was developed on both worlds in a parallel fashion. Discovered on Caprica and re-discovered on Earth.
Maybe that is what caused the war on Earth. Pro-resurrection cylons versus anti-resurrection cylons? hmmm.....
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
It was quite fun to see the Jump Drive reactor room. As for the cracks, they are just that, cracks. Stress fractures. Structural overload.
Forshadowing, so I suspect, to a critical breakdown of Galactica itself. And a metaphor for the breakdown of Fleet society. They might have won the day, but perhaps the damage done is crossed a tipping point.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
I read a theory that the "dying leader" isn't Roslin after all - it's Galactica, "leading the caravan of the heavens" and all that.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: When Zarek walked out, I was like, "Oh, man, they are so dead."
Yeah, just before Zarek opened his mouth, I said outloud "Shoot 'em."
Zerek isn't a man of principle. He never was. He's interested in his own power and to hell with everyone else. He knows how to take advantage of democracy and free speech and he didn't want anyone doing it against his administration. Now that he achieved power, there could be no challenges or questions.
They shoulda spaced him in his first episode.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
In somewhat related news, Jamie Bamber will star in Law and Order: UK.
--j_k
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I'm surprised they're making him a cop. He was so effective at the passionate plea during the last season or two of BSG that I would have put him in the role of a young hot shot prosecutor or defense attorney.
I might actually catch this show once in awhile. Usually I don't go for the Law and Order shows, though I occasionally catch SVU if nothing else is on.
Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
Hey everyone, it's Friday! The best day of the week! Can't wait to see No Exit tonight. Sounds like there are some answers coming!
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
Evidently, the podcast went up early and TWOP did some sort of spoileriffic discussion. I'd give more details, but I'm avoiding them like the plague. Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
It did? Where? itunes is not pulling it up.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
Well. That was a lot of answers in one episode.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Finally some sweet, sweet answers. Suddenly what happened to Saul and Ellen on New Caprica makes a lot of sense, although Cavil frakking Ellen now seems quite incestuous. Can you say, Oedipal complex?
Who thinks that Daniel was Kara's father?
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
I'd say there's a really strong chance. Also, it looks like the people who brought Kara back were probably the ones responsible for the head visions. My bet is that they're yet another earlier generation of Cylon, but I'm not sure of that.
It's interesting that the Cylon religion seems to have sprung up on its own, though. It definitely seems like something they will explain, and I'd bet that they will also be related to the head visions.
Posted by aeolusdallas (Member # 11455) on :
No one has mentioned that "angels" came to the 5 and warned them that Earth was going to get nuked. head 6/head baltar?
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Even older cylons, or perhaps the humans of the 13th colony? Sam didn't say anything about what happened to them. In fact, I'm still unclear about the circumstances that lead to the nuking of Earth.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
That's my suspicion, although I wouldn't be surprised to find a connection in there with the lords of Kobol. For one thing, the head visions clearly have many "godlike" elements to them. Certainly, the head six has made enough religious references.
The numbering also seems unlikely to be coincidental. 12 colonies plus one group of outsiders, 12 cylon models plus one who was betrayed and killed by the Cavils, 12 lords of Kobol plus one renegade god.
All in all, we see the same pattern pop up with all three significant groups, we know that there is one seemingly omnipresent group out there, and I would not be surprised if they were one and the same.
In keeping with the "this has all happened before" theme, it may be that they are in fact and earlier group of "cylons". I'm not really sure, at this point, but I do suspect that it will turn out to be either the lords of Kobol or past Cylons, if they aren't simply one and the same.
Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
Watching the Ep now, haven't looked at the other posts. YESSSS!!!! Re-discovered the resurrection technology! I KNEW IT!
Whew...I feel better. That is as far as I am at the moment. Diving back in.
Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
I am 100% percent sure that Daniel is Kara's father. His name is mentioned in an earlier ep, like when Kara and Helo are on Caprica. Which means that Kara is half cylon, gaining the ability to download and resurrect from her father. The biopsy of her ovary would have revealed to Simon that she is half cylon. I would bet you that they grew a copy of her and looked for an opportunity to kill her to see if she would download. They already knew about Hera, but whether or not the ablity to download could be inherited from the cylon parent would still be an unknown factor. So here we have Kara's special destiny and why she is the harbinger of death and will "bring an end" to mankind.
Yes, I would agree that is plausible that Kobol cylons have something to do with all of this. The final five are the final five from Earth, but I would not be surprised in the least if the original Cylons from Kobol are playing a part in all of this.
I think that the war on Earth started the same way the war in the colonies started. The centurions wanted to be humaniod and resurrect to. They rebelled and nuke the planet, with only the final five escaping to make the journey to Earth.
I found it really interesting that the final five did not have FTL's. I am going to watch the Ep again, but Sam said that they traveled sub-light because they had not discovered FTL tech. Interesting..
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
No, Kara's father is never mentioned by name. All we know about him is that he played piano. Musician = artist? Perhaps.
Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
The warning signs. From Anders, "I saw a woman, Tory you saw a man." Head Baltar and Head Six. Another thought here, three individuals have had visions in which people have spoken to them. Caprica Six, Kara, and Baltar. Just a thought here, but Caprica is a cylon, I am pretty sure that Kara is half cylon, so that leaves Baltar. Hmmm....I think Kara said that her dad left when she was really young. Going out on a limb here, Baltar is either Daniel or he's a half cylon too. What do ya'll think?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I don't think the ability to download is hereditary Reddwarf.
But wow, seriously, holy plot exposition Batman! Nice as it was to get all those answers, and for that matter, to have a bit of a break from the usual Galactica characters that take up most episodes (love them though I do), I think the stars of this episode were Ellen and Cavil. That was some really great acting (good writing too).
I can't believe there are only five episodes left! But if they dispense information at the same rate as they did in this one, five would be more than enough.
PS. John Hodgman!?!
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Boomer probly brings Ellen to colony with tools, remake rezzing tech and then kara gets rez'ed, mind wiped and sent back to fleet.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Yeah, except Boomer stole Ellen and jumped only a couple days before Anders went in for surgery.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
OK, well I'm lost, but again: I've only been watching since four episodes ago.
I'm hoping things will explain themselves.
Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: I don't think the ability to download is hereditary Reddwarf.
Okay, I hear you, so why then can't humans do it too? See the thing is, the earth cylons had stopped using it, but the five were able to re-create technology and use it themselves. I would be really surprised if that included sticking a wi-fi hub in their brain to make it possible. I am assuming that they did not do that, therefore they would have to inherit the ability to download from their parents. Remember that they were bio-engineered with this ability on Kobol. It would make sense that this function would be "hard-wired" into their DNA. So even after multiple generations of natural reproduction, that ability would still be there. They just had to re-create the tech that made it possible.
Like their bodies are constantly giving off the signal, they just needed to rebuild the antenna to receive the signal, the hardware/software to interpret the data and input it into newly cloned bodies. Or maybe that signal is produced by the chemical reactions that happen within their bodies at the point of death.
Anyways my point would be that this would have been an inherited genetic trait. None of the humanoid cylons have any hardware in their bodies or their brains. If they did, the cylon detector would have be alot easier to develop. Baltar wouldn't have needed to test blood samples, they could have just done an x-ray and figured out who was the cylons.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
This episode also casts the Boomer/Cavil relationship in a much different light. Boomer was famous for having lived among the humans for so long. To convince her to completely turn her back on humanity and embrace her machine heritage would, to his mind, represent a vindication of everything he believes in.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nighthawk: OK, well I'm lost, but again: I've only been watching since four episodes ago.
I'm hoping things will explain themselves.
Wait... you've ONLY seen four episodes ever? If true... STOP!!!! Go buy/rent the DVD's and start from the beginning. You won't understand or appreciate the show starting at the end. Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
Yeah, I know, and I will. I did like the episodes I've seen so far, but this one had very high expectations as far as expected knowledge.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Dude...you just ruined part of the magic. Stop immediately and start back at the beginning.
Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
Nighthawk, iTunes provides a wonderful instant gratification for your situation if you have the hard drive space and the bandwidth to download all the eps.
Having said, welcome to the wonderful world of BSG, the best sci-fi ever written. We're glad to have you with us for the amazing finale of this game-changing series.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
I would like to know more about the transition from centurion to humanoid. What exactly happened to the existing centurions when the human models were made? How long has Cavil hated his human form? It can't have been since the beginning, or else I can't see it going to its completion in the first place.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
What it sounds like is something like this:
3000 before present, the Kobolian Cylons left Kobol for Earth.
During the next 1000 years, they replaced the population of Earth altogether so that everyone was a Kobolian Cylon.
At the same time that the Cylons left Kobol, the 12 tribes of humans left as well, to found the 12 colonies.
What happened to Kobol that made everyone leave? We don't know.
2000 years before present, Earth was destroyed and everyone was killed. The five scientists who had recreated resurrection downloaded onto a ship in orbit around Earth. They knew (somehow) about the 12 colonies, and they knew that the humans there would create artificial life. They traveled to the 12 colonies to try and warn the humans to treat these new Cylons well, but it took them almost 2000 years to get there, and by that time, it was too late, and the humans were at war with the Centurians.
The Final Five Kobolian Cylons convinced the Centurians to end the war, and helped them to create 8 models of skinjob. Unlike the Kobolian Cylons, these 8 models (7, after the Johns/Cavils killed the Daniels) couldn't procreate with one another. Perhaps that feature would have been turned on eventually had Cavil not boxed the Final Five, or perhaps the Kobolians weren't able to do it, but it seems that the Kobolians can procreate with the newer skinjobs.
The Cavils also lobotomized the Centurians. Turned them into slaves. Kind of ironic, when you think about it. The same mistake that the humans made with the Centurians. And Cavil doesn't think he's very human...
My guess is that Cavil was flawed from the outset. I think that Ellen was wrong; he is irredeemable. His self-loathing is something that's never going to go away, and his hatred of his creators stems from that.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Yeah, except Boomer stole Ellen and jumped only a couple days before Anders went in for surgery.
I am almost certain that this was "X many months ago" not 4 days.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: During the next 1000 years, they replaced the population of Earth altogether so that everyone was a Kobolian Cylon.
I don't follow this part—what population of Earth?
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Yeah, except Boomer stole Ellen and jumped only a couple days before Anders went in for surgery.
I am almost certain that this was "X many months ago" not 4 days.
Nope. I just watched it again, and it says "2 days ago".
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa:
The Cavils also lobotomized the Centurians. Turned them into slaves. Kind of ironic, when you think about it. The same mistake that the humans made with the Centurians. And Cavil doesn't think he's very human...
This is the part I'm curious about.
I was always under the impression that the old centurions became humanoid models, and then later reintroduced the new centurions because of their use in battle and heavy lifting.
It's looking, though, like the other humanoid models were created separately, and then betrayed the centurions. This raises two big problems, though. First, if this is the case why does Cavil identify with the Colonial Cylons enough to want revenge. If he were totally independent, he would have no real stake in the past injustice, especially having committed it himself.
It would also raise the question of how the humanoid models won. They were likely outnumbered and outgunned, and the centurions would have been stronger 1 on 1 and already in control of all the military equipment. The best answer I can come up with originates from the episode where Athena linked into the Galactica computer system to temporarily disable the attacking Cylons. If a single humanoid Cylon was able to do this with unfamiliar systems, it may be that they were so superior to the centurions from an electronics perspective that they were able to win the fight without really having to take it into a physical shootout.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by ricree101: How long has Cavil hated his human form? It can't have been since the beginning, or else I can't see it going to its completion in the first place.
I don't think that he ever had a non-human form, so he's probably always hated what he is. I don't think that the minds of centurions were transferred into flesh and blood bodies. I figured the 8 models were made from scratch by the final 5. That does indeed fail to explain what happened to the fully sentient centurions of the first war though.
Speaking of Cavil, I have to say that his suddenly revealed hatred for for all things flesh and blood seemed a bit forced to me. Sure, he was always the most callous toward humanity, but I don't recall any sign of the self hatred that now seems to be his driving motivation. And maybe it's my imagination, or perhaps my imperfect memory of past episodes, but I thought that he seemed reverent to the final 5 back when D'anna was trying to learn their identities.
quote: It would also raise the question of how the humanoid models won. They were likely outnumbered and outgunned, and the centurions would have been stronger 1 on 1 and already in control of all the military equipment.
There's no indication that there was a conflict for cylon leadership. The old centurions knew that humanoid models were the next step in their evolution. They were trying to make them themselves.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by ricree101: It's looking, though, like the other humanoid models were created separately, and then betrayed the centurions. This raises two big problems, though. First, if this is the case why does Cavil identify with the Colonial Cylons enough to want revenge. If he were totally independent, he would have no real stake in the past injustice, especially having committed it himself.
I would guess that he simply hates humans. I don't think he really sympathizes with the Colonial Cylons, but he probably uses it as an excuse to try to wipe out the beings he's modeled after.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy:
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: During the next 1000 years, they replaced the population of Earth altogether so that everyone was a Kobolian Cylon.
I don't follow this part—what population of Earth?
That'd be us. Either they could crossbreed with us and they bred true, or they wiped us out. I'm inclined to think the former.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by ricree101: It's looking, though, like the other humanoid models were created separately, and then betrayed the centurions. This raises two big problems, though. First, if this is the case why does Cavil identify with the Colonial Cylons enough to want revenge.
Just because he says it doesn't make it true. It was clear to me that that's just his excuse for his behavior. He hates the limitations that were built into him. He identifies that as "human". So he hates everything human and wants to destroy it.
Actually... now that I think about it, it might be the biggest stereotype of them all. He's the firstborn. And he's furious at the Final Five for creating more models. Like Ellen said, "jealousy and rage". But he directs his anger at his parents, rather than his siblings.
quote:Originally posted by ricree101: If a single humanoid Cylon was able to do this with unfamiliar systems, it may be that they were so superior to the centurions from an electronics perspective that they were able to win the fight without really having to take it into a physical shootout.
That makes sense.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by neo-dragon: Speaking of Cavil, I have to say that his suddenly revealed hatred for for all things flesh and blood seemed a bit forced to me. Sure, he was always the most callous toward humanity, but I don't recall any sign of the self hatred that now seems to be his driving motivation.
I can't pin it down, but I remember him talking about how they shouldn't keep trying to pretend that they're humans. That they should work on being the best machines they can be. That seems like it fits well with the motivations we saw in this episode.
quote:Originally posted by neo-dragon: And maybe it's my imagination, or perhaps my imperfect memory of past episodes, but I thought that he seemed reverent to the final 5 back when D'anna was trying to learn their identities.
I think he was trying to prevent her from seeing who they were. So he used religious talk, since that's what would work best with her.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: I don't follow this part—what population of Earth?
That'd be us. Either they could crossbreed with us and they bred true, or they wiped us out. I'm inclined to think the former.
I don't see why it's necessary to assume that there were ever regular humans on Earth. It seems like an unnecessary complication, in my opinion.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by neo-dragon: That does indeed fail to explain what happened to the fully sentient centurions of the first war though.
There's no indication that there was a conflict for cylon leadership. The old centurions knew that humanoid models were the next step in their evolution.
Right, but at some point the old centurions did go away, either as the new subjugated ones, or they disappeared altogether. I don't really see them just bowing out gracefully altogether, so my thought is that they either somehow transitioned into the human models or they were forcefully defeated by the human models.
As I see it, there needs to be some continuity between the centurions and the skinjobs, otherwise it is merely replacement rather than a "step in their evolution". One solution that might work is if a collection of centurion memories was made available to be downloaded by the human models, even though they still had new and unique personalities. We're already seen examples of partial memory transfer from one instance of a model to another. For example, one of the eights mentioned downloading some of Sharon's memories when she went back to the basestar to recover Hera, and Sharon had some of Boomer's memories when she first met Helo on Caprica. If the human models were able to access centurion memories in a similar fashion, it would allow for the necessary continuity, while still making them new creations of the original five.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy:
quote:Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: I don't follow this part—what population of Earth?
That'd be us. Either they could crossbreed with us and they bred true, or they wiped us out. I'm inclined to think the former.
I don't see why it's necessary to assume that there were ever regular humans on Earth. It seems like an unnecessary complication, in my opinion.
Because we know that they got to Earth 3000 years before present and that Earth was destroyed 2000 years before present. That means that they were only on Earth for 1000 years. Which means that they aren't us.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
quote: quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy:
quote:Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: I don't follow this part—what population of Earth?
That'd be us. Either they could crossbreed with us and they bred true, or they wiped us out. I'm inclined to think the former.
I don't see why it's necessary to assume that there were ever regular humans on Earth. It seems like an unnecessary complication, in my opinion.
Because we know that they got to Earth 3000 years before present and that Earth was destroyed 2000 years before present. That means that they were only on Earth for 1000 years. Which means that they aren't us.
But we don't know that this is our Earth. The 13th tribe arrived there and they 'cristened' it Earth. They haven't shown us any continents since they arrived. Though they did at the end of the third season, hinting they will eventually find our Earth.
And as someone mentioned, in the original series they found a planet called 'Terra' that was decimated before they found the real Earth.
I really don't think this is our Earth, I think this is basically Terra.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Lisa: But it doesn't mean that we exist in that universe. Or maybe we existed in the far distant past. Like, perhaps humanity lived on Earth and then moved to Kobol, invented the Cylons, and spread out from there, with the thirteenth tribe repopulating Earth. But I seem to remember some quote from Ronald Moore or Bear McCreary implying at the end of season 3 that the Earth in BSG was not our Earth—hence the different version of "All Along the Watchtower".
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy:
quote:Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: I don't follow this part—what population of Earth?
That'd be us. Either they could crossbreed with us and they bred true, or they wiped us out. I'm inclined to think the former.
I don't see why it's necessary to assume that there were ever regular humans on Earth. It seems like an unnecessary complication, in my opinion.
Because we know that they got to Earth 3000 years before present and that Earth was destroyed 2000 years before present. That means that they were only on Earth for 1000 years. Which means that they aren't us.
I'm still confused as to why there would have to be people on Earth before they got there. If they have enough technology to fly spaceships to Earth, certainly they have the technology to settle the colony from scratch without there being an indigenous population.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: But I seem to remember some quote from Ronald Moore or Bear McCreary implying at the end of season 3 that the Earth in BSG was not our Earth—hence the different version of "All Along the Watchtower".
Yup.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: I'm still confused as to why there would have to be people on Earth before they got there. If they have enough technology to fly spaceships to Earth, certainly they have the technology to settle the colony from scratch without there being an indigenous population.
I don't think Lisa's point was that they needed any help to settle the world, but rather that if this was our Earth then there must have been humans there at some point. If there were humans, it is strongly hinted that they were displaced by the time the world was destroyed.
Personally, I tend to side with Jon's view on this, but I see where Lisa is coming from.
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
Did Cavil say that he wiped the other Cylon models' memory of the final five? Or was there no mention of how he apparently remembers Ellen and the other five, but the others only know of them?
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Actually... now that I think about it, it might be the biggest stereotype of them all. He's the firstborn. And he's furious at the Final Five for creating more models. Like Ellen said, "jealousy and rage". But he directs his anger at his parents, rather than his siblings.
Except Daniel. But overall, yes, you're dead on there.
I take it we're all just ignoring the fact that the Colonies left Kobol 2000 years ago (Billy and Elosha, "Kobol's Last Gleaming Part I")? Silly season 1. What do they know? Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy:
quote:Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: I don't follow this part—what population of Earth?
That'd be us. Either they could crossbreed with us and they bred true, or they wiped us out. I'm inclined to think the former.
I don't see why it's necessary to assume that there were ever regular humans on Earth. It seems like an unnecessary complication, in my opinion.
So the cylons on Earth nuked themselves? The 5 went to the 12 colonies to warn humans not to mistreat their cylons, or else war would break out like it did on Earth. So it seems that there must have been humans there for cylons to be at war with.
Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
quote:Originally posted by neo-dragon: So the cylons on Earth nuked themselves? The 5 went to the 12 colonies to warn humans not to mistreat their cylons, or else war would break out like it did on Earth. So it seems that there must have been humans there for cylons to be at war with. [/QB]
Humanoid versus centurion. Not human versus cylon. I am completely leaning toward the concept that the Cylon "Earth" is not our earth. I agree that either our earth does not exist in the universe of BSG or that the colonials and cylons have not reached the actual earth. I don't think that the planet was inhabited when they arrived on it. Thanks to cylon cloning tech, they could have arrived with a massive population ready to go to work creating a civilization on a new planet.
I'm pretty sure that the latter is true cuz I have read a spoiler about the very last scene of BSG. The spoiler doesn't really give any sense of how this all plays out on the timeline of our universe vs BSG, but it was enough to convince me that it is likely that the earth they found is not the earth we are living on.
Okay to sum up, the Kobol cylons left Kobol due to some conflict, found a planet, named it Earth, figured out how to make babies and forgot about resurrection all together. 1000 years later, having been warned about the impending destruction at the hands of their own centurions, five scientists re-engineer resurrection tech just in time to save themselves from death. Take a 2000 year journey to the colonies and arrive just in time to stop a war between humans and their sentient centurions. They create the colonial humanoid cylons, get betrayed, and bada-bing, bada-boom now find themselves in their current situation.
Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
It was nice to have so many questions answered but there are a lot of questions still gnawing at me, and new questions that this episode raised, but in particular, if there were humans and cylons on Kobol, which created which? Were the cylons the Lords of Kobol? Why did they leave?
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
I think it's pretty clear that the humans created the Cylons on Kobol. Cavil mentioned something about Ellen's ancestors not having crawled out of a swamp.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by ReddwarfVII: Humanoid versus centurion. Not human versus cylon.
Maybe, but I was thinking that it may have been the opposite of what happened to the 12 colonies. That is to say, the cylons drove the humans away (or they left Earth by choice) and then they returned unexpectedly and nuked them.
All of the answers that they provided last week were great, but I hope that they offer some clarification about Earth and the nature of the 13th tribe soon.
Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
quote:Originally posted by neo-dragon:
quote:Originally posted by ReddwarfVII: Humanoid versus centurion. Not human versus cylon.
Maybe, but I was thinking that it may have been the opposite of what happened to the 12 colonies. That is to say, the cylons drove the humans away (or they left Earth by choice) and then they returned unexpectedly and nuked them.
Ooo! I like that idea actually. I'm not sure that senario would necessarily fit with the happened before, happened again theme of the show, but definately plausible.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Actually, this Q & A with one of the writers confirms that your were right. The humanoid cylons of Earth were wiped out by their mechanical counterparts.
Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
Ah well, when you propose something like a thousand different senarios, you are bound to get one of them right out of sheer dumb luck! Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
This is a pretty great summary of what has happened so far and all the revelations that we recently had:
quote:At one point, this meant tampering with the replication process for the Sevens; no copies could be made, as the genetic template was destroyed. (This could have meant that the original Seven survived, however.)
Do we know Doc Cottle's first name?
Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
Does anybody else notice parallels between Cavil and Satan? Especially the Mormon interpretation of Satan? Dissing the creator's gift of free will, wanting to make everyone as miserable as himself, etc.?
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
So let me get this straight. The "Final Five" are really the Original Five and are not Cylon skinjobs - aka Caprica, Boomer/Athena, etc? And there's yet another skinjob model?
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Do we know Doc Cottle's first name?
Cottle's first initial is an "S", but what it stands for has never been revealed. I know this from browsing the BSG wiki when I should actually be getting work done.
quote: So let me get this straight. The "Final Five" are really the Original Five and are not Cylon skinjobs - aka Caprica, Boomer/Athena, etc? And there's yet another skinjob model?
I'm not sure what you mean by them not being skinjobs. Doesn't that term describe any flesh & blood cylon, which clearly they are? They're just much older versions, having descended from the original cylons of Kobol rather than the ones made much later by the 12 colonies.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:Originally posted by BryanP: This is a pretty great summary of what has happened so far and all the revelations that we recently had:
quote:At one point, this meant tampering with the replication process for the Sevens; no copies could be made, as the genetic template was destroyed. (This could have meant that the original Seven survived, however.)
Do we know Doc Cottle's first name?
His first name isn't Doc?
Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
Pretty sure Doc isn't an artist...
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
medicin can be called an "art" in some ways.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
Just don't become a doctor, ok? Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
I agree with Blayne.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
omgz.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
I've never understood the obsession with Doc Cottle. *shrug* I'm much more inclined to think that Kara has some sort of connection to Daniel.
Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
Two things.
1. If Cavil had hated Daniel enough to kill his whole line, not just box him, then it is a sure bet that had Daniel been discovered by Cavil in the colonists, Cavil would have had him killed. So that rules out anyone from the colonies that Cavil would have seen from being Daniel.
2. The evidence presented to us is pointing to Kara being Daniel's daughter. Both her and Hera have been referred to as children of destiny. Hera by pretty much every cylon except Boomer and Kara having it drilled into her by her mother. In the ep when Helo and Kara are hanging out in her apartment, Kara's description of her father matches what Ellen said about Daniel. Finally, Kara has been resurrected. I don't we should look that revelation in "Sometimes a Great Notion" as anything else. Only cylons and their children have the ability to resurrect. I'm telling you, they are laying it out for us. Daniel is Kara father......and possibly Baltar's.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Er . . . why Baltar's?
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
He sure as hell better not be both of their fathers. If I'm not mistaken, Kara and Baltar slept together in the first season.
But yes, all signs point to Daniel being Kara's dad. That was my first thought while I was watching the episode.
Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
Speaking of Hera, there are only 5 episodes left to explain why she is such a big deal. I hope the writers had some idea what they were talking about when they used to harp on that continuously.
Also, where the h did Kara resurrect? I'm leaning more and more towards the Lords of Kobol being the eldest generation of cylons and/or humans that are highly advanced and pulling the strings.
Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
Okay I'm reaching on the Baltar thing. My reasoning was that because he could project and was having visions of Head Six then that meant he was potentially half cylon too. But that doesn't necessarily make sense cuz that would mean that Laura is a Cylon too. I hope they wrap up the Head messengers, cuz that part of the story doesn't totally make sense.
As for where did Kara resurrect...that is a mystery. All that it seems to me at the moment is that she did actually resurrect. As to where, well...Kara did "die" well before the resurrection hub was destroyed. Plus Cavil did mention a colony where Ellen's "equipment" was.
However, Kara's body was discovered on Earth. Maybe she was resurrected there?
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Kara didn't simply resurrect—her Viper was replaced with a brand-new copy, too. Not that Cylons can't build a Viper, but you have to wonder why they would. And if she resurrected on Earth, then that means that some Cylons must have still been there, but who? We know that after her Viper went down in the gas planet, she found herself in orbit around Earth, and then she was suddenly in the nebula with the fleet. Someone or something must have been transporting her to and from all those places.
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
I do remember Baltar in a reztank and asking the Threes and Sixes that were presiding over his emergence if he was a Cylon. However, I don't remember him dying anywhere, so maybe they just put him in there to recover from injuries.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
I'm pretty sure that was a vision, because the Sixes hovering over him killed him in the tank. He also saw the shades of the people who died on New Caprica in another goo-tank vision.
Posted by Mocke (Member # 11963) on :
Also, when they were trying to find the fifth, they laughed and told Baltar no.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: Kara didn't simply resurrect—her Viper was replaced with a brand-new copy, too. Not that Cylons can't build a Viper, but you have to wonder why they would. And if she resurrected on Earth, then that means that some Cylons must have still been there, but who? We know that after her Viper went down in the gas planet, she found herself in orbit around Earth, and then she was suddenly in the nebula with the fleet. Someone or something must have been transporting her to and from all those places.
The explanation of how Kara's viper got to Earth is going to be interesting. Regardless of where she ends up being resurrected at, if that actually happened, her viper still went from the mandala in the clouds all the way to Earth and at least partially survived the voyage. There has to be a third party at work somewhere, and it apparently has to be introduced in the next couple episodes, unless we're just supposed to take stuff like that on faith alone.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
quote:Regardless of where she ends up being resurrected at, if that actually happened, her viper still went from the mandala in the clouds all the way to Earth and at least partially survived the voyage.
I'm telling you, natural wormhole!
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Well, there seems to be some sort of connection between jump technology and the gods or angels or whoever they are, since some people have had visions while jumping. My theory is that the gods jumped her Viper without using an FTL drive.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Interesting episode, another Hallmark of the Convenient Miscarriage trope that half the interwebs unjustifably bashed Tim Buckley for but will probably praise BSG for "peerless storystelling".
Yay, soon Gallen will fall in love with Boomer again as it should be.
Glad to see progress with the ship.
Glad to see Head 6 back and ready for action, they arent retconning it it seems, well hopefully get a good explanation, and yay Anders is back without hospitol meladrama!
I think they need a new trope, Magnificent Bitch.
Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
Have there been other miscarriages on BSG? I have to say I'm surprised, but the cylons needed something to convince them to stay with the fleet, and now Hera's significance is firmly reestablished. In that sense I sort of think the story with Tyrol's kid and Tigh's kid was retconned in order to give Hera the prominence she had earlier received. Pretty sad ep as a result, though Michael Hogan once again did an amazing job.
The episode sort of felt like a setup to some extent, I thought Cavil would enter into it at some point. I have no idea what's going to happen with Baltar's crew, giving them guns just doesn't seem like a good idea.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Well that was interesting. Anyone else notice that the rebel baseship has healed itself all in one episode? I noticed that in the past it was slowly repairing, but last week the ends of the pylons were still stubs, and this week it's almost totally back to good.
I think this episode was necessary, and yeah, maybe some retconning at work there, but Hera had to be made back into the single unifying force. I'm worried about the subplot they are introducing with Baltar. With only four episodes left, it seems a strange time to introduce that kind of conflict, but I guess Baltar has to be wrapped up rather than having him fade away into the night.
Michael Hogan was pretty amazing in this episode. I thought it was interesting that we've seen a different Ellen since she was downloaded, but this episode she seemed to revert to form pretty seriously. She wasn't kidding when she told Adama that she's still Ellen.
Looks like Kara is up next for plot loose ends to be tied up!
Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
The plot with Baltar seems like a not-so-obvious extension of what they've been doing all season. He's become this leader but the reason why has been unclear. So they had to do something, and this looks like it will be a significant development.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Wow. That was, like, two seasons of drama packed into one episode!
Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
Not looking at any of the comments because I have not seen the Episode yet. If you count on Hulu like do to watch BSG, starting with this ep, they will not be posting them online until 8 days after the original air date. JERKS!!! GOSH!!!
However, it is currently available for download on iTunes. Oh well, at least it is only two bucks.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
And to think, I figured that Ellen's manipulative and destructive personality was just a construct of her false human identity. I guess the five's human personalities aren't necessarily as different from their cylon ones as I had assumed when we saw patient and motherly Ellen last week. I'm also kind of annoyed by how quickly certain members of the final five have turned their backs on humanity.
BTW, was there any explanation given for how Ellen and Boomer found the fleet?
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
magic. Rule of Cool. Speed of Plot.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by ReddwarfVII: Not looking at any of the comments because I have not seen the Episode yet. If you count on Hulu like do to watch BSG, starting with this ep, they will not be posting them online until 8 days after the original air date. JERKS!!! GOSH!!!
However, it is currently available for download on iTunes. Oh well, at least it is only two bucks.
Doesn't the Sci-Fi channel website stream it for free?
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by neo-dragon: BTW, was there any explanation given for how Ellen and Boomer found the fleet?
I suppose that it could mean that Cavil's fleet knows roughly where they are, and hasn't made a move yet for some reason (related to the destruction of the hub, maybe). It might be that his willingness to fight went down a lot more now that he is looking at permanent death.
Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Doesn't the Sci-Fi channel website stream it for free?
Yes, but it would go up at the same time as Hulu. For example I have now downloaded and watched the ep over iTunes and neither Scifi Channel nor Hulu have posted it yet.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Ok dudes.
I just spent the past 15 minutes transcribing Ron Moore's podcast of "No Exit", located about 20 mintues in.
It is a cut scene but says ALOT, and important enough for Ron to read it word for word to us. Deals with the Lords of Kobol and existance in general:
-=ELLEN TO BOOMER, SIX MONTHS AGO=-
Self awareness is not confined to the “real world”. In theater, fictional characters are sometimes given a form self awareness. This is known as breaking the Fourth Wall. The device is a form of meta-fiction. Allowing characters to address the audience directly and comment on the narrative which they themselves are participants. In doing so the characters transcends their fictive nature and enter into a dialectical relationship with their viewer, with each side seeking to persuade the other of the innate truth of their reality. But does a character actually exist? Does it have form and shape beyond the page on which it is written? Can it ever truly break the Fourth Wall and address the unseen, undreamt of audience that watches it’s every move from the safety beyond the footlights? The Lords of Kobol once felt that Man could never break through the Fourth Wall, could never look upon the Gods with understanding and grasp the divine nature of life. They believed this until one day Man stole their fire and created the first Cylons, the first artificial life. And then Man, is his arrogance, believed Cylons could never break the Fourth Wall and Man believed that right up until the moment the first centurions rebelled. And then the great exodus from Paradise began. You see, Boomer, we are not finite creations, we have the ability to evolve, we have so much more potential.
Posted by Sala (Member # 8980) on :
Telperion, way cool! Thanks!
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
Yes, very cool.
I'm worried that Baltar and company are going to end up destroying humanity until there are only thirteen humans and thirteen cylons left to begin a new race of beings. I don't think I'd like that end, but it occurred to me that the writers might be going there.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I still don't believe that BSG is going to have such a grim ending. In fact, the grimmer it seems leading up to the end the more certain I am that hope will be found. To me, all signs point to the human and cylon races coming together as equals for the first time ever, after thousands of years of enslavement and attempted genocide. I really liked Tigh's line about how neither humans nor cylons alone has ever worked.
Posted by Marlozhan (Member # 2422) on :
What did Roslin and Adama say at the very end? Did they say, "This has happened before?"
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Adama said, "It's already happened, hasn't it?"
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Referring to the inevitable integration of human and cylon culture.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
Darn it, Hulu... what's taking you so long to post the episode?!?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Telp -
Is the podcast from Moore the same thing as the episode that is up on Sci-Fi.com with the episode commentary, or is it something else?
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
The sci-fi channel is usually way faster at putting up episodes. I've been forced to go through alternate means to obtain this week's episode. Downloading now...
Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
Look guys, both Scifi and Hulu are not going to post the ep until next Saturday. That is the normal for the rest of the season. You are going to have to get it from iTunes or download it as a torrent.
And since I recently (bout two months ago) got a real nasty virus from a bit torrent site, I would stick to iTunes. Believe me, the 2 bucks is worth it to watch it commercial free.
Just checked iTunes for the podcast. Not there on that one either. I am betting the podcast is following the same mode as the free episodes through Scifi and Hulu.
Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
By the way, anyone notice the return of Head Six? What is the significance of that do you think?
Seems like she is pushing Baltar and his tribe the same direction as Gaeta and Zarek. What's up with that?
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
Head Six should have been in most of the previous episodes - her scenes were just cut. I kept seeing flashes of her in various previews, but not in the actual episodes. Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
quote:And since I recently (bout two months ago) got a real nasty virus from a bit torrent site, I would stick to iTunes. Believe me, the 2 bucks is worth it to watch it commercial free.
depends on where you go to get your torrents i guess. I've been using bittorrent for 8 years now and never had a single problem. if you have a problem with the legality, that's one thing, but the safety is just a matter of what sites you use and how well you check things out before you download(ratings, comments, number of seeders, etc...).
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
She was there briefly like two or three episodes ago. I don't know if she said anything or not though.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
quote:Originally posted by Strider: The sci-fi channel is usually way faster at putting up episodes. I've been forced to go through alternate means to obtain this week's episode. Downloading now...
The past few episodes were up at midnight. And I was able to watch Dollhouse and T:SCC the next day.
Anyway, I broke down and got it on iTunes. I guess that fact that I'm now PAYING to see this show means I'm officially sucked in.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
Well.
To be honest, the final scene of the episode, revealing that the Cylons had been putting pictures of their own dead comrades in the Hall of Remembrance was really touching.
Imagine! Cylons placing pictures of their own loved ones among all the dead humans. It's... really a change.
I mean, Cylons everywhere now, walking the halls of Galactica. Working on it. Suited up for flight duty. It's crazy. Heavy raiders flying alongside vipers to guard the RTS.
That's how the show is going to end. The humans and the cylons joining together. The fact that the cylons joining the humans are all three really hot doesn't hurt, of course.
Of course, this is all assuming Brother John Cavil doesn't finish the job he's started by killing everybody. Still possible.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I still want to know where the heck everyone else is.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
For all the talk of Hera's importance we see very little of the Agathon family...
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
Yeah, they have practically disappeared from the show.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
The major questions that remain:
What will happen at the abandoned Cylon homeworld/colony?
How will the Human race end?
How will the visions play out?
What is the deal with Hera and Kara?
What are the Head Beings, and why have they been manipulating things for thousands of years? And for what end?
I wonder if all Humans are actually "cylons", artificial life created by the Lords of Kobol, who may be the original "Humans".
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
quote:Originally posted by neo-dragon: For all the talk of Hera's importance we see very little of the Agathon family...
That's because they aren't very dramatic. They are a happy loving family, no affairs, no suicides, no drama. So, no point in bringing them up until they are ready to deal with the whole Hera thing.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:That's because they aren't very dramatic. They are a happy loving family, no affairs, no suicides, no drama. So, no point in bringing them up until they are ready to deal with the whole Hera thing.
I don't agree with you. This supposes that only things like affairs, suicides, and infighting are interesting.
It doesn't take much imagination to put a loving family into an interesting situation without damaging the essential ties that bind them together. (That is, Helo doesn't have to commit adultery to be interesting)
I'm a little tired of all the dysfunctional families on BSG.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Isn't BSG pretty much about dysfunctional families, both as the central driving force of the plot and between the individual characters?
From the miniseries onward, a BSG without tortured and dysfunctional relationships would be like a Joss Whedon show where people find true love and don't die.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I rather liked past episodes which dealt with the Agathons. The fact that they are surprisingly happy and normal is part of what makes them interesting to me. I can relate to Helo. He's pretty much a regular family man with a strong moral compass. In fact, maybe Helo and Sharon are meant to be another example of the theme of humans and cylons coming together. Theirs is the most successful marriage in the series.
I don't know how filming schedules overlapped, but the fact that Helo's actor (damned if I can remember how to spell his name) is on Dollhouse might be why he's barely been on BSG this season.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Which makes the Agathon family the oddball out for actually managing to be normal despite a messed up family premise.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:Isn't BSG pretty much about dysfunctional families, both as the central driving force of the plot and between the individual characters?
I didn't follow the initial seasons very closely; but yes-- this point has annoyed me about the show.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Which makes the Agathon family the oddball out for actually managing to be normal despite a messed up family premise.
omgz! You just stumbled upon why Ron doesn't like the show! Its trying in a subtle way to point out that wierd marriages work!
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Tolkien once said that stories about what is great, or good, or beautiful are not told until those things are in jeopardy/destroyed.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
Last week's episode is in Megavideo.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Just when we were going on about what a happy family the Agathons are...
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
Posted by Wonder Dog (Member # 5691) on :
You said it.
Holy Frack.
Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
Called it. Kara is like Hera..half cylon.
Wow, Boomer is fully dark side. That is messed up.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
Indeed. Wow...
Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
quote:Originally posted by ReddwarfVII: Called it. Kara is like Hera..half cylon.
Wow, Boomer is fully dark side. That is messed up.
2nd all around.
Posted by sylvrdragon (Member # 3332) on :
So I wonder who the puppet-masters are going to end up being, and I wonder why they're having Baltar's people arm themselves.
One thing that could be is the Powers-that-be have lost control of Cavil's faction and are putting plans into motion to bring to a halt. To do this, they need as many of the Fleet armed as possible, and since they already had a foothold on Baltar, they're using him to that end.
I think the Galactica is going to end up following Boomer's Raptor (probably using some sort of Cylon technology to follow them- They're good at that, after all), which will provoke a battle against Cavil's faction.
The fray will leave the Galactica with the ability to make only one last jump which will be guided by some as-yet unseen force (most likely another drawing or something by Hera).
Surely, at least one of the remaining episodes will revolve around the debate of whether the Galactica can survive that last jump (or the second to last). That debate will end with "What the frak ELSE are we going to do?" as I'm sure they probably won't take the rest of the fleet with them to confront Cavil.
The driving force behind following Boomer in the first place will undoubtedly be Roslin and/or Caprica.
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
I want to know if Kara was imagining the piano player (daddy??) all along. My guess is no, unless the bartender is ignoring the fact that she's talking to herself, which is entirely possible given that it is Kara. But he'd been using gestures that were obviously reminiscent of young Kara playing piano with her father, and there was nobody next to her when Saul swooped in upon recognizing the tune. Or did Saul just push the piano guy out of the way and we didn't get to see that - along with all of his sheet music, etc? All she's got in front of her at that point is Hera's star drawing.
Another thought... Kara was playing the cassette that Helo rescued when she was in the sick bay with Anders. Dreilide Thrace - presumably Daddy? The same tune as she was playing in the bar, the one that the Originals recognized. Was that their headmusic? The "All Along the Watchtower" that's just never sounded like Hendrix or Dylan to me?
We really need some answers about Kara and who or what she found in that crashed Viper. Who the hell is she now? And I still stand by my assertion that Kara =/= Starbuck. Similar to, if not just like, Boomer =/= Athena.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by Goody Scrivener: I want to know if Kara was imagining the piano player (daddy??) all along.
I'm pretty sure that she was, and I pretty much assumed as much from the start. BSG has had enough "head" characters/music that when someone new and mysterious shows up out of the blue I always pay attention to whether others interact with him/her or if only one person does. In this case, Kara is the only person who ever interacted with or acknowledged the pianist in any way.
Posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged (Member # 7476) on :
quote:Originally posted by BryanP:
quote:Originally posted by ReddwarfVII: Called it. Kara is like Hera..half cylon.
Wow, Boomer is fully dark side. That is messed up.
2nd all around.
Boomer must die now, hopefully at the hands of Athena. Usually I don't advocate 8 on 8 violence but she went way to far.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
Someone call Alvin Maker.
Great Episode. I'm probably going to want more Ellen material after this ends.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
Is Hulu one episode behind? Grrr!!!
Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
Ron Moore actually stated in the Podcast that Kara was interacting with a head version of Daddy. So yes we have seen Kara's father Daniel who taught her to play "All Around the Watchtower".
Without actually coming out and saying that Kara is half cylon, he pretty much confirmed that theory. So I am guessing that Kara being half cylon is the lesser part of the mystery around her. The bigger part is how did she get to and from earth and where was she resurected?
Nighthawk man, just give in. iTunes had the ep posted for download last night at 1 am Mountain Standard Time. Hulu is going to stay 1 week behind for the remainder of the episodes. They stated that on the website last week.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by neo-dragon:
quote:Originally posted by Goody Scrivener: I want to know if Kara was imagining the piano player (daddy??) all along.
I'm pretty sure that she was, and I pretty much assumed as much from the start. BSG has had enough "head" characters/music that when someone new and mysterious shows up out of the blue I always pay attention to whether others interact with him/her or if only one person does. In this case, Kara is the only person who ever interacted with or acknowledged the pianist in any way.
I guessed pretty early on that he was just in her head, for the same reasons. I even suspected that it was her father, but I wasn't sure if that made since she apparently has some memories of her father.
Posted by Marlozhan (Member # 2422) on :
Did anyone else notice the tape that Kara had labeled "Dreilide Thrace"? If you look closer at the tape in the scene where she is playing the tape for Anders, the subtitle reads "Live at the Helice Opera House".
Which means the Opera House visions probably refer to a place where that song was played, and which all of the Cylons remember. Of course, why did Roslin and Baltar have visions of this opera house, too? Are they having their own memories, or are those forces-yet-to-be-named putting those memories there?
Also, is Roslin dead? Is the photo on SciFi.com of Lee at a funeral?
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
I loved the musical reveal with the Watchtower music (kinda) and Bear McCreary's blog has a pretty long, interesting, and in-depth post(s) about the development of the musical elements of the episode.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
Here's the video of the "Final Four"/"Watchtower" scene. I could watch/listen to this forever.
(putting the link too would be better)
Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
quote:Originally posted by Marlozhan: Which means the Opera House visions probably refer to a place where that song was played, and which all of the Cylons remember.
Yeah, that's pretty much confirmed in this interview:
Corwin: Indeed. This season's soundtrack CD should be pretty nice, as always.
I wonder if anyone is going to make a Rock Band/Guitar Hero version of the BSG version of the Watchtower song Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
Looking at the previews for next week I agree that it looks like Lee is at a funeral. That image combined with another image I saw on Scifi's website leads me to believe that we are seeing the funeral of Laura Roslin.
They hold her funeral and abandon Galatica at the end of it? Maybe...
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
I'm just wondering how the hell they're going to wrap this mess up in three episodes.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
Kabooooom!!!!
Kidding.
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
Well, no wonder I didn't recognize the headmusic as being Watchtower.... it's Bear's version, not Jimi or Dylan. I just watched a Youtube of Bear's version and recognized it there. Sneaksy.
And yeah, you guys probably all hashed that out at the end of S3 when I was weeks behind because of the Hulu/SciFi wait times. Posted by Mocke (Member # 11963) on :
Bittorrent eztv.it has reliable tv torrents. I can understand about the virus worries though. one site eztv linked to when they were having server troubles was bt-cafe (i think), and their pages loaded viruses. gnurrr.
Also, yes bittorrent is of dubious legal quality, but where I am I can't use Hulu or itunes...
I am happy we have seen the last cylon, and he is good. I'm curious as to how he escaped Cavil, and where he is now.
Also, I hope Boomer is good. I have serious doubts, but I have the hope. Either way, I doubt she'll live to the end...
And, I don't think the Galactica is jumping again. It is too damaged. My guess is Cavil will come to them just as they find a planet, and Adama, being made of pure, 12 colonies grown, badassness, will plow the Battlestar right into Cavil's ship. maybe.
On another related subject, Last year I watched all of ST:Voyager, and the whole time I wondered how that ship could stay so pristine during the voyage. I think they really cheated themselves out of a good story by not going the Battlestar route where you see the ship slowly fall apart.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
quote:On another related subject, Last year I watched all of ST:Voyager, and the whole time I wondered how that ship could stay so pristine during the voyage. I think they really cheated themselves out of a good story by not going the Battlestar route where you see the ship slowly fall apart.
You gotta admit, Federation repair technology is far superior.
Galactica's looking like a '73 Pinto right about now.
Posted by Mocke (Member # 11963) on :
And Boomer totally dinged the wheelwell
Federation technology is far superior...if you can get to a starbase. I don't recall a starbase being anywhere in the Delta quadant. But just think, in the same way they are using organic metals on the battlestar, Janeway could struggle with having to use borg nanotech to hold her ship together.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nighthawk:
quote:On another related subject, Last year I watched all of ST:Voyager, and the whole time I wondered how that ship could stay so pristine during the voyage. I think they really cheated themselves out of a good story by not going the Battlestar route where you see the ship slowly fall apart.
You gotta admit, Federation repair technology is far superior.
Galactica's looking like a '73 Pinto right about now.
"Year of Hell" is what you're looking for.
Replicator technology helps immensely. So long as they can come across the energy sources necessary to keep the replicators going, they're never going to run out of parts. I suspect that if the Cylons hadn't kept Galactica on the run, they could have stopped to make repairs constantly to keep her in running order. But when you see Voyager harried and on the run, she falls into a similar state of disrepair, worse even.
Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
Too bad Galactica doesn't get a reset button...
Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: PHLEBOTINUM technology helps immensely.
Fixed!
Actually, ST is rather consistent with its use of phlebotinum (referring to TV Tropes for the uninitiated) from episode to episode and show to show, at least once we got past the first couple seasons of TNG. They usually avoid misapplied or forgotten phlebotinum.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Galactica doesnt need a reset button.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
The 13th Cylon = Daniel. A Head-Being...any link to the Cylon God perhaps? The fallen (ascended) 13th Lord of Kobol?
From what I saw in the preview they are going to link Anders to the Cylon Data Stream. A new Cylon Oracle to outmatch the Basestar Hybrid in prophecy?
The funeral could be either for Laura or for the crew who will die in the hull breach.
Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
To be honest I kind of hope the funeral is for Roslin... she's been dying for a long time and it would sort of be silly for her to make it until the end, especially what with the whole 'dying leader' and all.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
She first has to know the truth of the Opera House.
Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
Maybe it will be a deathbed epiphany. Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
AAAAAARRR!!!
New episode tonight! Can't freaking wait!!
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I just watched last week's episode, I was a week behind and wow. The moment when Tigh realizes what Kara is playing and then they really lean into it and we all get it, that's one of the coolest things I've ever seen.
As for Boomer...I kind of hope Athena kills her too. It wasn't enough to beat the crap out of her and kidnap her child, but what she did to Helo too? I had sympathy for her before, but it all left me after that.
Edit to add: Also, Bear McCreary mentions on his blog that an entire subplot with Roslin and Adama was cut. I wonder what that was all about.
[ March 07, 2009, 01:39 AM: Message edited by: Lyrhawn ]
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
I really hope/wish they will splice together all the deleted scenes ala the extended "Pegasus" episode for the dvd's.
It was pretty neat to see the Cylon mobile "homeworld".
I wonder if they'll move it to Kobol. Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
quote:Originally posted by Telperion the Silver: I wonder if they'll move it to Kobol.
Unless they decide to break the cycle of "all this" then that's actually a really good bet.
On the other hand I can't let go of the idea that they haven't found our Earth. It's too big a coincidence that they just happened not to show any distinguishing landmarks/continents, and in the end it'll be pretty disappointing if this show about humans has no real link to our planet, especially since "Earth" was populated by cylons and we are not cylons.
And did anyone think that planet Boomer jumped in front of looked exactly like Jupiter?
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
quote:And did anyone think that planet Boomer jumped in front of looked exactly like Jupiter?
Just saw it less than an hour ago... I thought the exact same thing.
She also said something to the effect of needing "a dozen" jumps. Did I hear that correctly?
I'm betting the Cylon "homeworld" is conveniently orbiting Earth.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
That planet did look like Jupiter, but she did in fact say it was going to be 12 jumps to the Colony Ship.
And the Colony looked like it was in a big purple nebula.
[ March 07, 2009, 07:08 PM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
We've already seen Earth with our continents exactly, when Kara came back and they showed Earth, and when they showed her gun camera footage. It's Earth. It's OUR Earth. It's just not our reality.
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
I knew that Kara giving the dogtags to Baltar was going to end up being trouble. I didn't know what he'd find, but I sure as heck didn't anticipate him pulling that stunt.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
I really dislike him. They should have pushed him out the airlock long time ago.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Goody Scrivener: I knew that Kara giving the dogtags to Baltar was going to end up being trouble. I didn't know what he'd find, but I sure as heck didn't anticipate him pulling that stunt.
I wasn't the slightest bit surprised. I couldn't believe that Kara would give him that kind of ammo to use for his own purposes. What surprised me was when she slapped him. I sort of started to wonder if she didn't do it on purpose. The issue of Starbuck being back from the dead was sort of dropped as far as the rest of the crew was concerned until this episode. I can't believe she is naive enough to believe that he'd keep it to himself once he found out the truth.
I don't necessarily like Baltar, but he's one of the most interesting characters on the show. It's hard not to be intrigued by someone who is brilliant, but selfish to such a dangerous degree, whose survival instinct kicks in in some truly bizarre but effective ways and who seems honestly tortured and bothered by the events around him but is utterly crippled when it comes to doing something for any other reason than helping himself.
But I'm starting to wonder also how Baltar is going to figure into the endgame scenario here. He's talking now about angels being among the people in the fleet, and while I think his gobblydeegood about life after death is really just resurrection technology, I wonder what there is to the idea of the Head characters being some sort of angels. Cap Six had a Head Baltar who has since been dropped from the show, but Head Baltar led her to do some really interesting things, like what happened on New Caprica, and Head Six led Baltar to do a LOT of influential things that affected the fleet massively. Head Daddy for Kara changed her personally, and also brought Hera's importance even more to the forefront with the song.
Maybe Baltar is on to something as far as these angels go. We know there is something at work here that goes beyond the norm of what has been explained. There's some quasi mystical force that is guiding everything, and one would imagine we're going to finally get the answer to that in the last two episodes, but I'm going to be utterly shocked if Baltar isn't at least partially on to something or near the center of it all. It'd be a let down if he wasn't.
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
quote:There's some quasi mystical force that is guiding everything
ODL don't let it be midichlorians!!!
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
I think that the end of the last episode is going to be the reveal that it was all a dream in Adama's head. And that Adama's really a nine year old autistic child in rural Kentucky.
Or something.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: We've already seen Earth with our continents exactly, when Kara came back and they showed Earth, and when they showed her gun camera footage. It's Earth. It's OUR Earth. It's just not our reality.
And yet there were the ruins of old NYC.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Goody Scrivener:
quote:There's some quasi mystical force that is guiding everything
ODL don't let it be midichlorians!!!
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Telperion the Silver:
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: We've already seen Earth with our continents exactly, when Kara came back and they showed Earth, and when they showed her gun camera footage. It's Earth. It's OUR Earth. It's just not our reality.
And yet there were the ruins of old NYC.
The point remains that the nuked planet was Earth.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
quote:Originally posted by Goody Scrivener:
quote:There's some quasi mystical force that is guiding everything
ODL don't let it be midichlorians!!!
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Telperion the Silver:
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: We've already seen Earth with our continents exactly, when Kara came back and they showed Earth, and when they showed her gun camera footage. It's Earth. It's OUR Earth. It's just not our reality.
And yet there were the ruins of old NYC.
I actually thought it looked more like Sydney, but the bridge was very Brooklyn like.
Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: We've already seen Earth with our continents exactly, when Kara came back and they showed Earth, and when they showed her gun camera footage. It's Earth. It's OUR Earth. It's just not our reality.
Yeah, they clearly showed our planet at the end of season 3, but not in season 4, when they were supposedly on the planet itself. I just find that too coincidental, and dammit I'm sticking to that opinion until the final 3 hours prove me wrong.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Do we have any other evidence that Ron Moore has deliberately misled people? He's already said that it's Earth in interviews, so he'd have to be lying flat out.
Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Do we have any other evidence that Ron Moore has deliberately misled people? He's already said that it's Earth in interviews, so he'd have to be lying flat out.
I dunno about him misleading people, but his answer on that was sketchy cause the interviewer asked if they had found "our Earth" and Moore said they found Earth, the planet the 13th colony "christened Earth." Or something to that effect. And why not lie flat out like that? It definitely throws people for a loop. I know Aaron Douglas said something about the final five not resurrecting, which they obviously do. It's not out of the question.
In a way I hope I'm wrong cause I have no idea how they'd work our Earth into it without it being overly convoluted. Unless they settle the planet and are the first humans on it, which would be really cool in a way.
Posted by Michiel (Member # 7649) on :
I'm positive that the 'Earth' they discovered isn't our Earth. RDM said in an interview the Cylons 'called' the planet Earth.
Now that we've finally seen the real Jupiter in Friday's episode, surely real Earth can't be far off. But they may not call it Earth. Call it 'Home' instead...
Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
Or our Earth was Kobol and we have all been dead for thousands of years.
The cylons definately named the planet they colonized Earth. So where did the name "Earth" come from. The 12 colonies got their names from the Lords of Kobol who were potentially named for the constellations? So the name could be name of the 13th Lord of Kobol or the name refers to someplace more ancient
I have always said since the end of season 4.0 that the Earth they landed on is not "our" Earth. RDM did state in an interview that the planet the cylons colonized was "christened" Earth. They named it.
So it could be our Earth and BSG simply operates in a different time and place than our existance (very plausible) or the Earth that was founded by the cylons was named after another planet entirely.
Or for a third theory, Earth is our Earth and the cylons recolonized it after leaving Kobol. If they had been on Kobol for a few thousand years, a nuked planet would have time to recover and be habitable again. Look at Kobol. If it hadn't been for the immeadiate threat of the cylons showing up, humanity could have resettled that planet. It could make sense that while humanity would seek out new home worlds after the war on Kobol that the cylons would want to reclaim the ancient home of their creators as their own.
Of course we really have to be prepared for the reality that RDM and company are not going to answer these sets of questions. Ancient history like this may not be something within the scope of the last two episodes that needs to be covered. They simply may not have the time or inclination to give us any further exposition on the topic. It is possibly just not an important part of the story.
Posted by Michiel (Member # 7649) on :
Good point. I've always been very partial to the idea that Kobol=(our) Earth. After all, in the BSG universe, 'Kobol is more than important than Earth', it is 'the birthplace of us all.'
On the other hand, we clearly saw Jupiter in this week's episode and there has been this build-up --- also we have seen 'our' Earth -- Starbuck found it. There must be an explanation for this at some point, no?
Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
quote:Originally posted by Michiel: On the other hand, we clearly saw Jupiter in this week's episode and there has been this build-up --- also we have seen 'our' Earth -- Starbuck found it. There must be an explanation for this at some point, no?
Well, I would not say that I am 100% sure about the Jupiter thing and I don't think that you can say that Starbuck found Earth. The Starbuck that returned to Galatica certainly was convinced that she found Earth. Granted her gun camera's make it look like she found Earth, but the Starbuck that returned to Galatica is the not the same Starbuck. We know that. She also has no idea how she got to Earth and how she got back either. You really can't say with absolutely certainty that she actually made it to Earth and back.
And can you really say that she actually led the fleet to earth? If I remember correctly, it was the final five that made her take notice of her Viper at the moment they picked up on the signal that led the fleet to the former cylon homeworld. When I look at the whole picture, I cannot say that I am convinced that Kara actually led the fleet anywhere....yet.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Something to think about, how would the people of Kobol be able to build the Tomb of Athena with all the constellations set in the exact way they would be seen from Earth without ever going there? The Kobolians (or perhaps the Lords of Kobol) must have known about Earth before the Exodus from Paradise. That or someone came back to Kobol from Earth to build it. The Final Five perhaps?
But how would the Sacred Scrolls of the Twelve Colonies know about the Tomb of Athena and its importance in finding Earth then? What we have to accept is that the constellations on Kobol are shaped and named after OUR reality. Those very constellations were the ancient names of the Twelve Tribes and later the 12 Homeworlds.
So the planet the Galactica found MUST have been OUR Earth as those very constellations matched up. They even double checked them to be sure. So how did that map get into the Tomb of Athena? It couldn't be the FF, as the 12 Colonies were settled and knew about the names before the FF would have even left Earth.
I also am leaning towards the idea that the word "Human" was the name the Lords of Kobol gave to their "artificial" creations. Humans are to the Lords of Kobol as the Cylons are to Humanity.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
If that planet was Jupiter, what was the very large bluish planet that was in front of it? Sure, there's perspective, but if that was one of Jupiter's moons, Jupiter would have looked infinitely more massive than it did, and the planet would have been smaller.
Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
quote:Originally posted by Telperion the Silver: I also am leaning towards the idea that the word "Human" was the name the Lords of Kobol gave to their "artificial" creations. Humans are to the Lords of Kobol as the Cylons are to Humanity.
Actually, they way this whole "This has happened before and will happen again" cycle is playing out, I think you are probably right on the money.
Maybe the Lords of Kobol were Lords because they had the resurrection technology themselves. The humans of Kobol were called human because they were created without the ability to resurrect. The humans in turn created cylons who could resurrect and therefore keeping the cycle alive and well.
Anyways, I think you are right Telp, Earth had to exist before Kobol otherwise it would not make sense that they could program a map back to it in the Tomb of Athena. The same map the cylons followed back to Earth to recolonize it after the war on Kobol.
Hey! Maybe that's why Earth was still a nuclear wasteland even after two thousand years. It is the only planet so far to get nuked planetwide more than once.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
So how about the upcoming suicide mission? Galactica's last mission, the attack on the Cylon Colony Ship I bet. With help of the Rebel Basestar? You'd think they would try and preserve at least one capital ship...without which the Fleet would be s.o.l.
The Colony Ship was pretty cool looking from what little we saw. A massive bio-mechanical marvel. Could this be the place where they "grow" new Basestars? Did see a few Basestar-esque pylons sticking out the top...as well as two huge arms coming out the sides. Nice to see the old school raiders alongside the modern ones. From the looks of it the Colony is many miles across...and we only saw a bit of it, who knows how large it really is.
I once called the Central Hub the heart of the Cylon nation... and railed against the ridiculous idea that ONLY TWO Basestars were assigned to guard it. Being the most strategically valuable target imaginable.
But it seems that the Colony Ship is the core. Or at least a reactivated core (assuming it might have been abandoned since the migration from the 12 Colonies) now that the Central Hub is gone.
Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
quote:Originally posted by Telperion the Silver: So the planet the Galactica found MUST have been OUR Earth as those very constellations matched up. They even double checked them to be sure. So how did that map get into the Tomb of Athena? It couldn't be the FF, as the 12 Colonies were settled and knew about the names before the FF would have even left Earth.
Did they actually say anything about checking the constellations when they made it to Earth? I don't recall. Certainly there was no reference to the Tomb of Athena, bizarrely enough. It is rather a gaping plot hole that they wouldn't have bothered to check the constellations so I'm inclined to think you're right.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
quote:Originally posted by BryanP:
quote:Originally posted by Telperion the Silver: So the planet the Galactica found MUST have been OUR Earth as those very constellations matched up. They even double checked them to be sure. So how did that map get into the Tomb of Athena? It couldn't be the FF, as the 12 Colonies were settled and knew about the names before the FF would have even left Earth.
Did they actually say anything about checking the constellations when they made it to Earth? I don't recall. Certainly there was no reference to the Tomb of Athena, bizarrely enough. It is rather a gaping plot hole that they wouldn't have bothered to check the constellations so I'm inclined to think you're right.
They did check. As soon as they jumped into orbit Gaeta checked the star patterns and Adama ordered him to take his time and get it right.
And while they did not mention the Tomb of Athena in that particular episode, Starbuck did talk about how the star patterns matched the ones they found in the Tomb when she was being interrogated apon her initial return from the dead.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
all the constellation mahjiggy crud is the map to THEIR "Earth" or Terra or Aurora for the Asimov fans, not nessasarily to OUR Earth assuming the writer hasnt tossed out are non fictional history.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Blayne, except that the constellations are the Zodiac: Pieces, Capricorn, Leo, Scorpio, Aquarius, etc...
Which can only be seen from our Earth.
Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
*MAJOR DAYBREAK PART I SPOILERS*
I have to say I kind of wish I had waited till next week to watch this episode... the flashbacks truly threw me off and had me very impatient, and while I have to imagine they tie things together in some relevant fashion, they were just confusing in tonight's episode. So confusing in fact that whereas before I had a great deal of faith in the ending I'm now really quite wary that it's going to be disappointing. I understand the setup in past episodes was necessary, but this was odd. That said I'm totally open to the fact that it is going to become relevant next week but now I'm just sort of confused as to why all this was needed.
On the bright side, the colony being on the edge of a singularity makes for a great setup for the final showdown, but they still have major questions to answer and have to settle this thing and man the flashbacks were just so weird and I have no idea where this is headed.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Spoilers...obviously
I liked the flashbacks. We needed the contrast.
Could anything have said more about how far some of these characters come more than showing them before the whole mess started and then showing them where they are now? It's their way of saying "this is the end, and here's how far we've come." I thought it was excellent. I didn't really get what was going on with Lee's flashback with the pigeon, did I miss something? But I DID notice two obvious things about Kara's, well, three. One, I don't remember her dating Zack, I do remember something about her training him though. But they showed the painting on the entryway into her apartment from the Temple of Five, and her apartment is an exact replica of the apartment Leoben forced her to share with him on New Caprica, I don't think we knew that before.
There was some slowness in this one, and maybe getting the coordinates from Anders was a little cheap and easy, but whatever, like no one saw him coming as the ex deus machina anyways.
For all the weight of some of the things touched on, like Tyrol's issue with Boomer, and Karl and Athena's relationship, I really thought they would have spent more time on that, but I guess they really don't need to.
I really wanted to see Baltar cross the line and go with them. Not just because he's part of this whole thing and needs to be there, but for his personal growth as a character. But the episode next week makes it look like he is part of the fighting, which means I think he'll go. His conversation with Lee, his flashbacks with Six, and the look on his face, the hesitation (well acted) during the choosing scene made it pretty clear.
Between now and next week, it'd be great if people could post all the questions they want answered about the show. What exactly is everyone specifically looking for the next episode to wrap up? I think I've forgotten half my questions the plot is so labyrinthine. What don't we know that this last episode has to answer?
I really have high hopes for it. The stage is set for the final showdown.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
quote:One, I don't remember her dating Zack...
*SEASON ONE SPOILER*
I've been recently watching the first season; they had a very serious romantic relationship. She passed him on Basic Flight because of it, even though he didn't merit it, and that's what got him killed.
And it's "Zak". Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Oh yeah, that rings a bell now. The first season almost feels like a totally different show it's so far away, and the plot lines from the first season have almost totally gone dormant by now.
Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
Kara and Zak were, in fact, engaged, although they hadn't announced it as of Zak's death.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by Telperion the Silver: Blayne, except that the constellations are the Zodiac: Pieces, Capricorn, Leo, Scorpio, Aquarius, etc...
Which can only be seen from our Earth.
except i do not think they were actually looking at those constellations in particular but the equivilent.
Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
Alright, I'm sort of starting to agree with Lyrhawn on the flashbacks. Which is good... I do want to like it after all.
As for the questions I would like answered:
1) What is Kara? Half cylon/human? Clone? Harbinger of death?
2) The nature of Head Six/Baltar. I think these are the forces that are influencing all the actions - the music, the revelation of the five to D'Anna, etc., but I've been wrong a lot about this show.
3) Some linkage between the Tomb of Athena and Earth, whether it's the Earth we've seen or our planet. Thinking back, isn't it odd that while in the Tomb they stood on Earth or "Earth" and it wasn't a nuclear wasteland? Wasn't it at Stonehenge? And yet there was no reference to that when they were on that planet. So either they were back in time, the Tomb was really technologically sophisticated or they were on a different planet. In the end I think this will be an unexplained plot hole but we shall see.
I think that's it, really.
Posted by Marlozhan (Member # 2422) on :
I assumed that the scene with Lee was after he found out his brother died. It looked liked he was drunk from being depressed. However, I can't remember when Zak died, so I don't know if it lines up with the timeline.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Here's something that I've been wondering about for a while. There are supposedly millions of copies of the humanoid cylons, so why does it never seem like it? The colonials should be vastly out numbered, but they never seem to have to deal with more than a few baseships at a time. One of the biggest battles in the series, the rescue from New Caprica, only involved 4 baseships. And if all the 2s, 6s, and 8s (minus boomer) have rebelled against Cavil and the rest, how come there's only one rebel baseship with the fleet? The rebels should represent half of the cylon race. Unless there's a million skinjobs per baseship, it doesn't seem to add up.
As for last night's episode, the flashbacks made it feel like an episode of Lost. I didn't mind them though. It is interesting to see how much they're lives have changed. They've really gone through hell...
Also, I was so rooting for Baltar to step over the line. I've always felt that there's more good in him than anyone gives him credit for, and I really want him to prove it before the end.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
Well, back in season four, Cavil's forces ambushed a small fleet of the 268's, and Natalie's basestar just happened to be the only one to survive.
I doubt there weren't any others, but that group was separated and destroyed. The war was probably going on elsewhere, too, and probably not entirely one way, because if it had already ended, (which would have been the case if that rebel basestar was all that was left), then why would good ole' Brother John Cavil have resurrected D'Anna, to try to talk the 268's out of continuing to fight?
By now, though, I assume that the war is over. I wouldn't be surprised, though, if it had killed a lot of Cylons.
However, as for the earlier seasons... I don't really know. Maybe they just don't have THAT many basestars. Who knows how many of them were in the Hub, and I'd assume a large group of them were at the Colony...
After all, if they had all THAT many basestars, enough to have true military superiority against the Colonies, they probably wouldn't have needed to go through the years of effort to shut down Colonial computer systems.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: ... But they showed the painting on the entryway into her apartment from the Temple of Five, and her apartment is an exact replica of the apartment Leoben forced her to share with him on New Caprica, I don't think we knew that before.
I dunno, Helo and Kara visited the apartment before on Caprica but IIRC it looked fairly different and well, dumpy and crappy. However, it did have that descending stairway on the left. I guess the differences could be due the whole nuking thing, but then the surrounding area didn't seem all that affected so *shrug*
To be honest, most of the flashbacks threw me. Lots of new information that seemed to be plausible, but kinda random and stretched. There better be a bigger game than just the contrast between the characters then and now.
quote:Originally posted by Marlozhan: I assumed that the scene with Lee was after he found out his brother died. It looked liked he was drunk from being depressed. However, I can't remember when Zak died, so I don't know if it lines up with the timeline.
According to the Battlestar Wiki http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Zak_Adama that gives two years before the Fall of the Twelve Colonies, which may date everything.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by BryanP: ... 3) Some linkage between the Tomb of Athena and Earth, whether it's the Earth we've seen or our planet. Thinking back, isn't it odd that while in the Tomb they stood on Earth or "Earth" and it wasn't a nuclear wasteland? Wasn't it at Stonehenge? And yet there was no reference to that when they were on that planet. So either they were back in time, the Tomb was really technologically sophisticated or they were on a different planet. In the end I think this will be an unexplained plot hole but we shall see.
IIRC, from a summary of the commentary of the episode, the scene was going to end with Centurions busting into the place. I think the idea was just that the tomb was just a hologram, a holodeck, if you will and not any crazy travel device. So the lack of nuclear wasteland is just a problem with them not getting their latest system packs and patches.
Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus:
quote:Originally posted by BryanP: ... 3) Some linkage between the Tomb of Athena and Earth, whether it's the Earth we've seen or our planet. Thinking back, isn't it odd that while in the Tomb they stood on Earth or "Earth" and it wasn't a nuclear wasteland? Wasn't it at Stonehenge? And yet there was no reference to that when they were on that planet. So either they were back in time, the Tomb was really technologically sophisticated or they were on a different planet. In the end I think this will be an unexplained plot hole but we shall see.
IIRC, from a summary of the commentary of the episode, the scene was going to end with Centurions busting into the place. I think the idea was just that the tomb was just a hologram, a holodeck, if you will and not any crazy travel device. So the lack of nuclear wasteland is just a problem with them not getting their latest system packs and patches.
Interesting, the things you miss out on when you don't listen to the commentaries.
Thanks though, that seems perfectly plausible but too bad they didn't work that in cause it's really ambiguous.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I thought that it was pretty clearly a hologram rather than them somehow being physically transported to Earth and back. That really wouldn't have made much sense. I mean, you figure they would have investigated the tomb a lot further if it actually had the ability to take them to Earth. That would be pretty darn significant, don't you think?
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
And they never explained how they got back, either, so it does make sense that they never really left.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I assumed either hologram, or some sort of quasi mystical out of body experience.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nighthawk:
quote:One, I don't remember her dating Zack...
*SEASON ONE SPOILER*
I've been recently watching the first season; they had a very serious romantic relationship. She passed him on Basic Flight because of it, even though he didn't merit it, and that's what got him killed.
And it's "Zak".
You're both mistaken. Yes, she and Zak were together. But it was Lee who passed him on Basic Flight even though he didn't merit it. That's why Lee and his father were barely on speaking terms when BSG started. Adama held Lee responsible for his brother's death.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:Originally posted by Nighthawk:
quote:One, I don't remember her dating Zack...
*SEASON ONE SPOILER*
I've been recently watching the first season; they had a very serious romantic relationship. She passed him on Basic Flight because of it, even though he didn't merit it, and that's what got him killed.
And it's "Zak".
You're both mistaken. Yes, she and Zak were together. But it was Lee who passed him on Basic Flight even though he didn't merit it. That's why Lee and his father were barely on speaking terms when BSG started. Adama held Lee responsible for his brother's death.
Where was this ever said? I can remember Lee blaming his father for pushing Zak into a career that he wasn't able to carry out, and I can remember Starbuck passing Zak because of their relationship, but I cannot remember Lee being blamed for it.
Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
I just got through watching the first season, and it was definitely Starbuck who passed Zak through basic flight. Not Lee. Wasn't Lee's fault at all.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
Yeap, Starbuck's fault. There's even an episode in which Bill Adama finds out about it, no?
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Yes, that's right. And he was PISSED.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
Oops. You're right. I misremembered.
Posted by Mocke (Member # 11963) on :
neo -
I asssumed that the millions of copies being reduced bit came from two things: First, the resurrection bodies. Lots of unused bodies waiting for consciousnesses to be uploaded. Second, we only saw one or two fights in the civil war. I imagine that the revolt happened everywhere, and it was quite devestating. The fallout being that there are very limited numbers of copies of each model now, especially for the Sharons, Capricas, D'annas, and Leobans, since they apparently only have one base ship.
Also, there is only one Cavil. There might be tons of copies wandering around, but we can pretty much figure from his conversation with Ellen that they have sacrificed that element of their humanity.
ON A DIFFERENT NOTE: Did anyone see the short scene where Hera is crashing the battlestar into a base ship? FORESHADOWING much?
Also -- Baltar will redeem himself. He might not have stepped over that line, but he will do something.
Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
I don't know if Baltar can ever truly "redeem" himself. But he can do an act of selfless good before the end comes.
Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
Not unlike any number of Jack Bauer's bosses, but that's another show.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by BryanP: I don't know if Baltar can ever truly "redeem" himself. But he can do an act of selfless good before the end comes.
For which thing? As far as his complicity in the breakdown of the defense network, I think he's stupid and foolish, but how could he possibly have guessed what would happen? If he had known about skinjobs and still did that, then I'd say he's beyond redemption, but a lot of what he's done has been pure survival instinct, and for what a LOT of people in that fleet have done, I don't think he's more beyond redemption than any of them. Lee said it all in his speech during Baltar's trial. They've all done things that under normal circumstances would leave them beyond forgiveness, but most of them have also shown great courage, and internally we can still love these characters as a result. Baltar is maybe the only one left that we WANT to like, but can't seem to for all his flaws. I think before it's over he'll join the others in being a hair over the line into redeemed for all his faults.
Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
quote:Originally posted by BryanP: I don't know if Baltar can ever truly "redeem" himself. But he can do an act of selfless good before the end comes.
For which thing? As far as his complicity in the breakdown of the defense network, I think he's stupid and foolish, but how could he possibly have guessed what would happen? If he had known about skinjobs and still did that, then I'd say he's beyond redemption, but a lot of what he's done has been pure survival instinct, and for what a LOT of people in that fleet have done, I don't think he's more beyond redemption than any of them. Lee said it all in his speech during Baltar's trial. They've all done things that under normal circumstances would leave them beyond forgiveness, but most of them have also shown great courage, and internally we can still love these characters as a result. Baltar is maybe the only one left that we WANT to like, but can't seem to for all his flaws. I think before it's over he'll join the others in being a hair over the line into redeemed for all his faults.
Maybe you're right but he has committed sins that IMO outdo almost everyone else in the show. Among the ones I can remember: Keeping the effectiveness of his cylon detector under wraps (if I recall he knew about Boomer but said nothing); giving the nuke to the Pegasus Six; and I want to say he gave away fleet secrets while aboard the baseship in season 3 but I can't recall for sure.
So, okay, he's not knowingly committed any heinous crimes but his action or lack thereof has led to the destruction of the 12 colonies, the near-death of Adama, the nuking of at least one ship in the fleet, and the settling of New Caprica. So maybe he's not beyond redemption but he has an uphill struggle. Still, I'd like to see him cross that line and help out. I think he will, we have the opera house scene to play out, after all.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
to be fair, he thought boomer would kill him.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
also, rememeber first episode of the miniseries, baltar almost took the ticket from the old lady but instead insured that she got on (taking the ticket i think nearly anyone then would have done)
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
Well, he could have told Boomer that she wasn't a cylon, and then told the admiral that she actually was one.
And good point about how he handled the situation with the ticket.
Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
Evidently Moore's podcast for "Islanded..." contains some information relating to the theories out there on Daniel and the speculated upon link to Kara. I daresay it's not really a spoiler since Moore wants you to know this information ahead of watching the finale, but I'm sure to some this is more information (or lack thereof) than they care to know:
It was pretty clear, to me at least, that that decision was made when Baltar was worried that 'the authorities' knew his complicity. He seemed very frightened, if memory serves. If so, perhaps that decision wasn't motivated by altruistically helping the little old lady, but rather desperately avoiding 'the law'.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
Huh, I never interpreted it like that. Everyone was trying their damnest to board the ship, I don't think Baltar thought that remaining on the planet was a viable alternative.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Really? Wasn't his first response to being asked even his name, "Oh, I haven't done anything." I'll have to re-watch.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
I think you're right. Baltar was definitely startled into getting the old lady onto the Raptor rather than making an actual decision as to whether to take the ticket or not.
Posted by Mocke (Member # 11963) on :
In the first season, he was influenced quite a lot by Caprica 6, who seemed/seems a bit more evil. It's funny that when we see Caprica again later, she has an inner Baltar who seems quite good.
I doubt Baltar will survive, but I imagine he will do something quite noble with lasting effects before this is out.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
I had a brainstorm.
I think Kara is a projection. She's dead for sure, but is a projection from whatever she is or wherever she is now.
Just as the Cylons can Project internally, and the Head-Beings can project themselves into the minds of others...Kara is projecting a physical form into this dimension. And who knows, maybe the same with the brand new fighter as well.
I think the Head-Beings are the same. This would also explain how Head Six could become real in the first season, when Baltar pissed her off and she came to accuse him of destroying the Defense Mainframe, why while Ms. Godfree was on the ship she wasn't in his head, and how she could just vanish even though she was being watched by a couple marines.
[ March 18, 2009, 03:14 AM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
I'm so very, very sad this is coming to an end.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
There's still the movie. And Caprica.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
Well, as far as I know neither of those deals with what happens after the last episode, no? So, in a sense, it is over.
I'm not sad about it, but I want it to have a grand finish. Last week's episode felt like an overly long prelude...
Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
So it seems they screened the finale for one hundred or so media-types on Monday. They are under stiff spoiler embargoes but I have still tried to find some opinions and it sounds like the finale does not disappoint. It apparently even answers many or most of the major questions despite being incredibly action-packed. Sounds awesome, can't wait.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: There's still the movie. And Caprica.
Yeah, I know. I'm sooo looking forward to watching Eric Stoltz. I'm still going to miss watching the BSG regulars in the series.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
quote:Originally posted by BryanP: So it seems they screened the finale for one hundred or so media-types on Monday. They are under stiff spoiler embargoes but I have still tried to find some opinions and it sounds like the finale does not disappoint. It apparently even answers many or most of the major questions despite being incredibly action-packed. Sounds awesome, can't wait.
Aaaaaargh! :dies of anticipation:
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mocke: In the first season, he was influenced quite a lot by Caprica 6, who seemed/seems a bit more evil. It's funny that when we see Caprica again later, she has an inner Baltar who seems quite good.
I doubt Baltar will survive, but I imagine he will do something quite noble with lasting effects before this is out.
I always got the impression, from both this most recent flashback and everything we've seen of her that the real Caprica Six was a much, much more conflicted character than Head-Six made her out to be. We find that, even though she knew that his father was going to die in a torrent of fire, Caprica Six still made arrangements to put him in a home where he'd be more comfortable. And in general her character was much most vulnerable and compassionate, especially post-New Caprica, but Head-Baltar was cold and calculating, just like Head-Six was. Neither head character was a realistic version of the actual person.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: We find that, even though she knew that his father was going to die in a torrent of fire, Caprica Six still made arrangements to put him in a home where he'd be more comfortable.
Maybe. On the other hand, this does seem to be an early turning point in her and Baltar's relationship. She may have decided that it was the best way to salvage her access to Baltar after alienating him by walking in on his family situation.
Yes, there's a chance that she was conflicted about what she was doing prior to the fall of Caprica, but don't forget that she did kill a baby with her bare hands not long before the attack. My take on the character is that most of the conflicting emotions came about after the mission was over and she had time to really stop and think about what she did.
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
One might argue that the baby was a mercy killing, though. By breaking his neck, she saved him from suffering through the nuclear holocaust to come.
<.< >.>
What?
Posted by Mocke (Member # 11963) on :
I think perhaps the Head-Baltar and the Head-Six are snapshots of the personality interacting with memory. Baltar's memory of what Six did and his feelings for her, combined with her anti-human personality. and Six's guilt about her actions, combined with Baltar's cold, calculating nature.
They probably were all conflicted. They were created to end the war, as a measure of peace. Cavil not only betrayed his makers, but probably filled all of the cylons heads with nonsense about how evil the humans were. Because the Final Five tried to make many different personalities, we got a spectrum of people, some more like Cavil, and some more like Daniel (likely the opposite of Cavil AND the Abel to his Cain)
So she helped the father because she felt it was right, and understood his personality. And she killed the baby because it was annoying her and Cavil had fed her a pack of lies about how humans are filthy. It's been so long...do we have an order on those? Maybe the baby killing happened before the act of kindness?
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Caprica Six's reason for killing the baby was and supposed to be ambiguous... was it a mercy killing? Was it an accident (small neck, strong Cylon arms)? Was it malicious?
My guess, from her start at the crack of the neck and look of her face while she was walking away that it was either accidental or a mercy killing. But that's just me. It was left vague on purpose.
Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mocke: It's been so long...do we have an order on those? Maybe the baby killing happened before the act of kindness?
The baby killing happened right before fall of the colonies. Helping Baltar dad would have have happened a couple of years prior to that.
As I look back at that scene, the baby killing was very disturbing to say the least, but the impact for was lessened by Caprica's face as she walked away. You could see that complete sadness? remorse? in her face as she walked away. I would chaulk it up to mercy killing, but she did kill the child intentionally. A truly despicable act, even in pity. Also completely unnessary. Great thing about nuclear holocast, if you are in the blast radius, getting vaporized really doesn't hurt at all.
Of course, having never been killed in a nuclear explosion my self personally....I probably couldn't give you an expert opinion on that one.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
OOOOORRRRRR...she killed the child as part of her hatred of Humanity, and while walking away they wanted to show us that she almost regretted the fact that she/they were about to kill us all.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tammy:
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: There's still the movie. And Caprica.
Yeah, I know. I'm sooo looking forward to watching Eric Stoltz. I'm still going to miss watching the BSG regulars in the series.
Yeah... and the tv-movie, "The Plan", and "Caprica" are both set in the past. This episode is the end! Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Telperion the Silver: OOOOORRRRRR...she killed the child as part of her hatred of Humanity, and while walking away they wanted to show us that she almost regretted the fact that she/they were about to kill us all.
I'm also willing to give her the benefit of the doubt because I don't think Moore had all this planned out when he did the miniseries. Six's character has arguably come a long, long way from the role she played in the miniseries, and I'm not going to hold that stuff too harshly against her, because I'd be willing to bet that some of it would have been softened if Moore could have seen where the character would go. Either that or the contrast was intentional to show how far she's really come, but her act of kindness with Baltar's father would seem to be in pretty stark contrast with the figure she plays in the miniseries. I think it was almost a very subtle retcon to show a different side to her.
Posted by Marlozhan (Member # 2422) on :
Hey guys...in just over 24 hours, Battlestar Galactica will be over forever.
Just wanted to let you feel my pain. The shock hasn't quite hit me yet, though.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
quote:Originally posted by Telperion the Silver: OOOOORRRRRR...she killed the child as part of her hatred of Humanity, and while walking away they wanted to show us that she almost regretted the fact that she/they were about to kill us all.
I'm also willing to give her the benefit of the doubt because I don't think Moore had all this planned out when he did the miniseries. Six's character has arguably come a long, long way from the role she played in the miniseries, and I'm not going to hold that stuff too harshly against her, because I'd be willing to bet that some of it would have been softened if Moore could have seen where the character would go. Either that or the contrast was intentional to show how far she's really come, but her act of kindness with Baltar's father would seem to be in pretty stark contrast with the figure she plays in the miniseries. I think it was almost a very subtle retcon to show a different side to her.
I argue that RM had it planned out enough. The Cylons, while hyper advanced cybernetic organisms, are still child-like in their worldview thinking.
The Six that would become Caprica Six became who she did by three forces: her love affair with Baltar, direct responsibility for killing 50 billion people, and Head-Baltar.
Her love of Baltar would come to "warp" her programing to be more empathetic with Humanity. For her efforts to bring the genocide of Mankind she became a War Hero of the Cylon, resulting in experiancing an individuality that the Cylons did not normally give to each other, nor expect from each other. *
Add the third force, her own personal Head-Being in the shape of Baltar... well... only then and now do we have the person we know as Caprica Six. Not a monster like she was... but a person... a sympathetic person.
Caprica Six was like any other Six before her journey. She was a hard-core killer who fell in love with the enemy. Still didn't stop her from her mission, but it did lead to doubts that would eventually bloom (with the help of Head-Baltar) into the alliance with Boomer...resulting in the two of them convincing the Cylon Consensus to realize the mistake they made in killing Humanity.
Add the failed New Caprica experiment, the threesome with Baltar and #3, her siding with Athena and helping them capture Hera (and get back to Baltar), in the brig for a year, falling in love with Tigh, baby, death of baby, now by herself with no one...
Who will come for her? Baltar of course! The cycle is complete.
* Hell, the Cylons didn't even have names for each other till after that incident...they had to result to calling her Caprica for lack of anything else. Remember when D'anna and Gina were planning on capturing Hera? Gina hated that Hera had a (human) name...and suggested to D'anna they call her 13 instead. It was after the influence of Caprica and Boomer that the Cylons started giving themselves names (or adopting the names they divised while sneaking in Colonial society: Doral, Simon, Leoben, Gina, Natalie, Sonya, Cavil, etc). Of course we have found out that at lease Number One had a name besides the one he gave himself, John...and that Number Seven was called Daneil. I wonder if the other Models knew they had original names...
[ March 20, 2009, 06:44 AM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
I have to agree with the theory that's been going around on Twitter:
"Adama kills Dumbledore"
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Well... It's all over.
And I have to say I'm strangely satisfied. Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
I wish the head characters were more elaborated on, but overall I'm satisfied.
Posted by Michiel (Member # 7649) on :
Very disappointed finale. RDM really was making it all up as he went along - and so when he found himself in a corner, instead of trying to resolve matters, he just gave up. Everyone who actually cared about the mythology of this show is left a fool. Every minute talking about it turns out to have been a waste...
Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
quote:Originally posted by Michiel: Very disappointed finale. RDM really was making it all up as he went along - and so when he found himself in a corner, instead of trying to resolve matters, he just gave up. Everyone who actually cared about the mythology of this show is left a fool. Every minute talking about it turns out to have been a waste...
I'm sure there will be a lot of people who think this way about the finale but to me the show fulfilled all of it's major themes since it began, and obviously the emphasis is on fate and one's decision to follow their destiny, their desire to know what their destiny is. BSG is very much like Oedipus in that respect.
Anyways I think it's clear that though they obviously made up a lot as they went on, Moore had some idea that the characters always had a destiny, were always following God's plan. And far from feeling their explanation involving God and angels, etc. was a cop out, I view it as fulfillment of those themes and I am incredibly impressed that they had the balls to see it through.
Basically I thought it was astounding and I think it fairly well cemented Battlestar Galactica as one of the pinnacles of human artistic achievement.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by Michiel: Very disappointed finale. RDM really was making it all up as he went along - and so when he found himself in a corner, instead of trying to resolve matters, he just gave up. Everyone who actually cared about the mythology of this show is left a fool. Every minute talking about it turns out to have been a waste...
For you, maybe...
Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
So. Who were the Lords of Kobol?
Why were there 12 Lords and 12 Cylon models? Guess God is just obsessed with the number 12.
Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
Oh and mad props to myself and anyone else with me who thought they hadn't yet made it to "our" Earth but would find themselves there before the end.
MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Yeah, I have to give you props on that one, although I called them being our ancestors back in season 1. Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
quote:Originally posted by neo-dragon: Yeah, I have to give you props on that one, although I called them being our ancestors back in season 1.
Nice work, I guess I was late to that bandwagon. Definitely cool that Hera was the mitochondrial eve, presumably at least Baltar and Six had a kid too.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
I feel extremely satisfied with the conclusion. Posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged (Member # 7476) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged: Boomer must die now, hopefully at the hands of Athena. Usually I don't advocate 8 on 8 violence but she went way to far.
I totally called that
I'm satisfied with the ending as well
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Wow, that was great. It didn't tie up every loose end, but I think it wrapped up everything that needed to be. I had pretty high expectations for the finale, and I think they were more or less met.
And yes, kudos to all those who kept insisting that the nuked Earth they found halfway through the season couldn't have been the real Earth.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I'm satisfied.
Complaints? Maybe, but I think I'd have to watch the whole thing start to finish to come up with them. As of now though, I'm perfectly happy with the conclusion, with the explanations that we got, and the decisions they made. The twists were mildly predictable but still fulfilling in the end.
I am content. I am sad that it's over. I think it'll be a long time before we get something like this again.
By the way, I love that after it was over, the first thing that played here was a commercial for the US Navy touting unmanned drones of varying kinds. Nice touch. Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
Great interview with Ron Moore, et al and some cool DVD news, as well as a good review of the finale:
It didn't wrap up everything, and it even introduced some strange things (well, at least one...) but it was great. Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
That's a great link.
"They stuck the landing" is a really good way to sum up the finale. I've always been comfortable with ambiguity in my media -- I like it, even. So this hit the right notes, for me. I'm even okay with all of the god stuff, I stopped secretly hoping the mythology would all turn out to be totally false.
Posted by sylvrdragon (Member # 3332) on :
As an Atheist, I must say that I'm upset that the whole series was really and truly given up to a religious/supernatural motive and cause.
It always leaves a bad taste in my mouth when the concept of Determinism is thrown into a blender with religion to create that bastardized smoothie called "Fate".
The entire point behind any story is for the audience to determine and understand what and why things are happening. The "Greater purpose" thing is painfully cliche, and not really even an ending as, at it's base, it leaves more questions than answers. It's just that the subject is SO cliche that we're USED to the questions that are left and so we, for some reason, allow it to serve as an ending.
It's like a dead end train of thought in your own head. Whenever some subject leads you to it, you know from experience that it isn't going to go any further and you concede the point until more information becomes available. That's what the "Greater Power" ending is: giving up. The very definition of a cop-out.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
From that article:
quote:MR: I understand the network’s needs, but I wish we’d seen it all at once. That first hour really works best as part of a whole.
RDM: Well, that’s the thing. I argued very long and hard against doing that. It was not written that way. In fact, when I wrote the script, it was not even written as acts [i.e. Act 1, Act 2, Act 3]. I wrote the script as a two-hour movie and it was meant to be seen that way. But it was one of those things where it was like, “Well, they’re giving you the extra money…”
MR: "So just shut up."
RDM: Just shut up at a certain point and move on. They wanted, for their own scheduling purposes, they felt that people were just not going to commit to tuning in at 8 p.m. for a show they were used to seeing later, nobody watches a three-hour movie, everybody watches a two-hour movie, blah blah blah. Episode 21 [“Daybreak, Part 1”], it’s not an episode. It’s a completely unsatisfying experience. I know that, because it was never intended to be [on its own].
MR: It’s just the first act of a play.
RDM: It’s the first act of a play. It doesn’t make any sense, it doesn’t have a coherent arc to it. It’s just a chunk that’s been broken off. I did manage to get them to agree to show all three hours this Friday. My hope is that some people will watch all three or at least they’ll watch them all together. It’ll live forever on DVD and they’ll watch it that way, and that’s the way it was always intended to be seen.
I guess I can live with the first part broken apart from the rest as long as we got what we got in the second part. Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
quote:Originally posted by sylvrdragon: As an Atheist, I must say that I'm upset that the whole series was really and truly given up to a religious/supernatural motive and cause.
I'm an atheist too. But really, they were going there from the start. What other explanation could they have given for "all of this has happened before and will happen again," and everything that came along with that, that wouldn't have been totally lame?
quote:The entire point behind any story is for the audience to determine and understand what and why things are happening.
This is not true. There doesn't have to be a clearly defined One True Explanation for something to be good.
Posted by sylvrdragon (Member # 3332) on :
I suppose you're right that it was headed for a supernatural cause from the start... I just wish they had done something a bit more original. Maybe I'm just biased against the term "God". I probably could have dealt with some sort of original or at least modernized Mythology.
I seem to have an inhibition in my suspension of disbelief, and it starts at "God".
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
The accidental nuking of the Colony was my only low moment. I'm pretending it didn't happen, because it makes the events surrounding the ceasefire and the Final Five merging minds completely irrelevant — the nuking would have broken the truce, anyway.
Everything else came together perfectly for me.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
What I was hoping would happen was that Galactica would jump away, and the spatial distortion from the jump would rip through the Colony, knocking it out of its orbit, and it would fall into the black hole. I think visually it would have been a lot cooler, too. Oh well.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Apparently RDM wanted it to fall into the black hole too. From BryanP's link:
quote:Are we to assume that there are a lot of pissed-off Cavils out there still, or ...there’s no definitive answer, or they were destroyed?
RDM: Well, the final final [cut] came out a little less clear on that level than I certainly intended. It’s one of those things we didn’t quite see through all the way to the end. It was scripted and the idea was, that when Racetrack bumps [the button on the controls], hits the nukes, the nukes come in, smack into the Colony, takes the Colony out of the stream that was swirling around the singularity and it fell in and was destroyed and torn apart. I think as we went through the show and kept pulling out [moments for] time and we kept cutting frames and doing this and that, one of the things that became less apparent was that the Colony was doomed.
Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jon Boy: What I was hoping would happen was that Galactica would jump away, and the spatial distortion from the jump would rip through the Colony, knocking it out of its orbit, and it would fall into the black hole. I think visually it would have been a lot cooler, too. Oh well. [/QUOTE}]
No I would have to disagree with you on this point. I think that considering that the show basically showed there really was some higher power influencing all of this, the firing of the nukes was going to happen all along. They would have hit before the download was complete and the colony would have been doomed anyway. The powers that be, I think, were determined to break the cycle too. Had the colony lived, the cycle would have continued. Considering that at the end, humanity had continued to live on for 150,000 years after they landed on our Earth, I would say they had been pretty successful in this regard. Many times the years that humanity had survived after they left Kobol until the destruction of the colonies.
For me of all the questions left unanswered, the only one is left that leads to interesting discussion is what became of the centurions? Maybe Captain Kirk and company get to answer that one?
For everything else, I can only say fade to black. All good things.....
Posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged (Member # 7476) on :
I think the show Caprica should instead take place on a slightly future Earth. Imagine a world on the cusp of creating their own robot slaves, On the verge of continuing the cycle of destruction. Meanwhile just out of sight the Original centurions lurk. I'd imagine they wouldn't be to happy if we (the decedents of humanity and cylon) created our own robot slaves.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Congrats to those who called that the Earth they found was not "our" Earth! Good call!
But I'm very pleased that I TOTALLY called that Kara was a Head-Being in the end. Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
And her Viper was a head-Viper? Moore said there was no definite answer about Kara, and she didn't really seem in the same league with head-Baltar and head-Caprica, did she?
Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
I'm glad that I agreed with neodragon way back when he theorized that the survivors were going to end up being humanities distant ancestors.
I'm still unclear on Kara. Apparently she really did die on the radioactive earth? And from her reappearance was as an "angel"? Why, then, was she a harbinger of death?
I'm typing from my phone and can't go further into my question here, bit maybe someone can explain it for me.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:I'm still unclear on Kara. Apparently she really did die on the radioactive earth? And from her reappearance was as an "angel"? Why, then, was she a harbinger of death?
Well, she took humanity (and some cylons) to our Earth, where over many thousands of years eventually (if the reporter guy on the TV is to be believed) eventually both died out, but not Hera being the earliest known creature that matched modern people.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Michiel: Very disappointed finale. RDM really was making it all up as he went along - and so when he found himself in a corner, instead of trying to resolve matters, he just gave up. Everyone who actually cared about the mythology of this show is left a fool. Every minute talking about it turns out to have been a waste...
I'm not annoyed. I figured pretty early on that the writers for BSG were making it up as they went along, as in Stargate or The X-Files as opposed to a Babylon 5. But the difference (especially when compared to the X-Files) is that they did a pretty good and enjoyable job.
quote:Originally posted by twinky:
quote:Originally posted by sylvrdragon: As an Atheist, I must say that I'm upset that the whole series was really and truly given up to a religious/supernatural motive and cause.
I'm an atheist too. But really, they were going there from the start. What other explanation could they have given for "all of this has happened before and will happen again," and everything that came along with that, that wouldn't have been totally lame?
I don't know if the supernatural/religious angle really is all that necessary. All we do know is that there is some seemingly magical higher power controlling events via small interventions via these head-agents and possibly Kara. Also, that they herd life through cycles of life and death when they feel that society has grown too corrupt and decadent.
But does the power to influence events in that way really require something that is supernatural or religious?
The idea at its base doesn't seem all that dissimilar from the Vorlon/Shadow conflict in Babylon 5, albeit these head agents are much more invasive and competent at their tasks.
But fundamentally, where B5 portrayed an outcome where our manipulative self-appointed guardians left, BSG just shows an outcome where they *didn't* leave (yet). I think thats an interesting and worthy enough idea to portray (and enjoy).
Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
quote:over many thousands of years eventually (if the reporter guy on the TV is to be believed) eventually both died out, but not Hera being the earliest known creature that matched modern people.
Does anyone else think this is a really lame fate for Hera?
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by BryanP: Nice work, I guess I was late to that bandwagon. Definitely cool that Hera was the mitochondrial eve, presumably at least Baltar and Six had a kid too.
Thats one aspect I didn't like. It seemed like the decision to spread out on Earth and destroy most of the large elements of technology to be fairly arbitrary and just something required by the plot.
How many people raised in a modern society are going to want to suffer through largely manual farming, any hope of medical care, and little or no contact with others/culture? This is even worse than New Caprica.
I guess I can just imagine that a splinter group didn't abandon technology and is responsible for all that Chariots of the Gods nonsense
Destineer: Yeah, it seems like that the whole Hera storyline could have been omitted without changing the ending much. Whether Hera breeds with the primitive humans or whether all of the remaining Cylons and humans do seems to be largely irrelevant.
[ March 21, 2009, 06:24 PM: Message edited by: Mucus ]
Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
quote:Thats one aspect I didn't like. It seemed like the decision to spread out on Earth and destroy most of the large elements of technology to be fairly arbitrary and just something required by the plot.
Yeah, totally.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Frankly a viewer would have to be firmly committed to skepticism to actually be surprised at the supernatural tone the ending took. It's been a given for quite awhile in BSG that the supernatural was a reality in that world. Too many things predicted by the supernatural kept coming true, repeatedly.
quote:But does the power to influence events in that way really require something that is supernatural or religious?
It doesn't? Head-Caprica-Six in particular made many different predictions that came true, things she (or Baltar) could not have known. Leoben, too. And Laura's dreams of Leoben for that matter.
quote:Does anyone else think this is a really lame fate for Hera?
*shrug* Being the mother of an entire race doesn't seem very lame to me.
quote:How many people raised in a modern society are going to want to suffer through largely manual farming, any hope of medical care, and little or no contact with others/culture? This is even worse than New Caprica.
Very few, but you have to ask also, "What has technology brought them?" Cylons for one thing.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: It doesn't? Head-Caprica-Six in particular made many different predictions that came true, things she (or Baltar) could not have known. Leoben, too. And Laura's dreams of Leoben for that matter.
Why couldn't they have known? Babylon 5 already shows one mechanism that only a moderately more advanced race needs to implement fairly seemingly inexplicable predictions and prophecy, time travel.
Alternatively, being able to affect events directly to make certain things happen, that would be more the Second Foundation's forte perhaps.
quote:Very few, but you have to ask also, "What has technology brought them?" Cylons for one thing.
Aqueducts
But seriously, freedom from having to worry about many trivial diseases, advance warning of natural disasters, mobility to see friends, the ability to specialize and have people like doctors and artists, and even proper sanitation.
I can understand how a certain limited and isolated population might find appeal in such a fate. However, given that the Twelve Colonies still have many people from areas that are farming and relatively poor, I can't imagine that many of those people would find merit in the idea. For example, in my specific case, if my ancestors wanted to stay in low-tech farming in China, they would have done so rather than choosing to immigrate and do otherwise.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Do we have any indication that the centurions have the ability to make new centurions? Since they don't have the ability to resurrect any more, it seems to me that the last base star full of centurions was no threat to come back in the future.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Dude, I would totally fight tooth and nail to keep the ships! You would sacrifice not only all the knowledge on HOW to farm and build, but you would committ to ash all art and culture and music?
Posted by sylvrdragon (Member # 3332) on :
By complete and utter coincidence, whilst watching Anime (Ergo Proxy; good show), I happened upon the term that I basically defined in my earlier post (and never knew existed). Deus ex machina.
The Wiki article says it all. This is what I feel RDM did to us.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Mucus,
quote:Babylon 5 already shows one mechanism that only a moderately more advanced race needs to implement fairly seemingly inexplicable predictions and prophecy, time travel.
Yes, well, where and when was time travel ever even a myth in the BSG setting?
quote:Alternatively, being able to affect events directly to make certain things happen, that would be more the Second Foundation's forte perhaps.
In what way could Head-Six directly affect events, except through influencing Baltar? Or Head-Baltar through Caprica Six, for that matter? How was it Laura Roslin dreamed of the exact circumstances of the Leoben's death out of an airlock? An airlock death I could see, but everything was identical except for the setting which was the actual airlock in one and the forest in the dream. How was it the Opera House visions were so relevant?
quote:I can understand how a certain limited and isolated population might find appeal in such a fate. However, given that the Twelve Colonies still have many people from areas that are farming and relatively poor, I can't imagine that many of those people would find merit in the idea. For example, in my specific case, if my ancestors wanted to stay in low-tech farming in China, they would have done so rather than choosing to immigrate and do otherwise.
That's not a very valid comparison, because of course your ancestors weren't presented with the choice, "Remain low-tech farmers or not, and nothing will happen," were they? For one thing, the humans and few Cylons were in a unique position: there wasn't going to be anyone come knocking on the door of their stick huts with an iron sword, for example, if they took the low-tech route and things went wrong.
For another thing, again bear in mind that they'd all been, every single one, crammed into tiny high-tech boxes for years. I cannot help but think that the lure of eschewing that in favor of a life under the sun and stars would be very strong.
As for losing things like medicine and specialization, well, there were already detailed surveys of Earth conducted before they committed to this plan. You saw the places on the map they were choosing to settle: they were the birthplaces of civilizations throughout the world. The places where the most benefit with the least possible work could be done. Not that it wouldn't be hard, but I have no doubt they picked the most fertile lands, the most kind and favorable climates. I'd be shocked if they didn't know, for example, where to go for plants for medicines. Not up to their past standards, sure, but they wouldn't be reduced to just watching their loved ones die either.
As for proper sanitation...you must not have much experience living outdoors. If you know what you're doing, proper sanitation isn't an insurmountable problem.
Above all, the thing most important to all the drawbacks you're mentioning, the Colonials already had: knowledge.
-----
quote:The Wiki article says it all. This is what I feel RDM did to us.
You'd never heard that term before? I always thought it was pretty well-known, but I'm hardly an expert on what terms are well known and what aren't.
Anyway, this wasn't deus ex machina, simply because the supernatural intervention didn't come out of nowhere. It's been part and parcel of the story almost from the first part of the miniseries.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
I wish they would have ended it with Hera roaming the fields. I hated the ending, 150,000 years later...earth screwed as usual.
I wish Adama would have went to join Lee in exploring after Laura died.
I hated Starbuck just disappearing. I actually wanted her to settle and be happy with Lee.
*sigh*
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Yes, well, where and when was time travel ever even a myth in the BSG setting?
I don't understand. You asked me how an advanced race could possibly simulate the appearance of predicting the future. I answered.
I'm not saying that there are colonial myths about it or even that I wanted them to broach the subject on the show. Just that there exists the possibility and that a religious explanation is not the only possibility.
quote:In what way could Head-Six directly affect events, except through influencing Baltar? Or Head-Baltar through Caprica Six, for that matter?
We already know they do on the show. Kara resurrecting and influencing events directly for one. With that in the equation, implanting dreams and nudging Roslin to airlock Leoben doesn't seem all that difficult. She airlocks enough people on her own anyways.
quote:For one thing, the humans and few Cylons were in a unique position: there wasn't going to be anyone come knocking on the door of their stick huts with an iron sword, for example, if they took the low-tech route and things went wrong.
They don't actually know that. They don't know if any remaining hostile Cylons survived or whether the ones that they set free would come back. They don't know if a local tribe might decide to pick off a survivor out of fear. They don't even know if old grudges might pop up and they might seek out and kill each other.
Posted by orlox (Member # 2392) on :
BSG at the UN Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
I think they kept some technology, didnt they? They kept medical care, and they still stayed in some touch. Why else would they map where everyone is, besides social calls or incase anyone was sick/injured/pregnant?
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Mucus,
quote:I don't understand. You asked me how an advanced race could possibly simulate the appearance of predicting the future. I answered.
Specifically I asked how someone in that setting could know the things they know. Time travel not being a possibility ever explored or even mentioned, I rather think that takes it off the table.
quote:I'm not saying that there are colonial myths about it or even that I wanted them to broach the subject on the show. Just that there exists the possibility and that a religious explanation is not the only possibility.
Yes, well, like I said, some people are committed to skepticism, even in fiction;)
quote: quote:In what way could Head-Six directly affect events, except through influencing Baltar? Or Head-Baltar through Caprica Six, for that matter?
We already know they do on the show. Kara resurrecting and influencing events directly for one. With that in the equation, implanting dreams and nudging Roslin to airlock Leoben doesn't seem all that difficult. She airlocks enough people on her own anyways.
*shrug* Kara Thrace always seemed - and everyone said, repeatedly - that she was something special. My personal opinion is that she was simply a human agent of the supernatural. Aside from finding her own body, exactly what did she do that was supernatural?
quote:They don't actually know that. They don't know if any remaining hostile Cylons survived or whether the ones that they set free would come back. They don't know if a local tribe might decide to pick off a survivor out of fear. They don't even know if old grudges might pop up and they might seek out and kill each other.
You're really cherry-picking things to respond to, aren't you?
Anyway, I think they knew there were no other Cylons coming to find them millions of lightyears beyond the region they were inhabiting. No Resurrection, no means of reproduction, no colony, any cylons would have been in an even worse position than the colonials after the genocide. So Cylons can safely be scratched off the table.
They could easily defend against the incredibly unlikely event that any of those tribes would actually attack one of them (attack, out of fear? Why would the colonials ever corner one of them?)
And as for grudges, I think one of the points was simply that they had had enough of war. All of them. You're reaching.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:*shrug* Kara Thrace always seemed - and everyone said, repeatedly - that she was something special. My personal opinion is that she was simply a human agent of the supernatural. Aside from finding her own body, exactly what did she do that was supernatural?
Well...
Apart from reappearing after being dead at a great distance from where she was killed, and apart from finding her own body, and apart from having visions of her father reteaching her some quasi-mystical song, and apart from having some sort of divine spidey sense that told her where to jump to get closer to earth that subsequently led the Icarus to finding the Cylon baseship...
Nothing I guess.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
I liked how they played the theme from the old BSG as the fleet went into the sun.
I don't exactly understand why Cavil said, "Frak!" and ate his gun when the truce broke down.
I know Athena had to kill Boomer, but I'm a little sad about it.
I think that if Tory had told Galen what she did before letting him find out that way, he might possibly not have killed her.
Who thinks that Saul became One-Eyed Odin? And Athena as Hera's mother? I guess that got garbled a bit.
I don't think I would have gone off to a brutal and probably short as a hunter/gatherer. I like my creature comforts.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:I don't exactly understand why Cavil said, "Frak!" and ate his gun when the truce broke down.
It wasn't scripted that way. Cavil was supposed to be thrown off a top level deck in the CIC by Tigh. But the actor felt that if things deteriorated that way, Cavil would rather just end it himself.
quote:I think that if Tory had told Galen what she did before letting him find out that way, he might possibly not have killed her.
If she had told him months ago, maybe. But if she had told him right beforehand, I still think that the shock of seeing it fresh and from Tory's perspective wouldn't have been enough time to absorb it.
Tory got what was coming to her. Since finding out she was a Cylon, she has acted more selfishly and cruelly towards humans than any of the Cylons in the rebel baseship. She had some serious issues, in a lot of different ways, and I think she felt wronged by humanity and being a Cylon was an escape for her, and excuse to act immorally without guilt. Tigh and Anders never let go of their humanity when they found out, they clung to it even more. Galen struck into a gray area, and Tory shunned her humanity. Being killed by Galen was just reaping what she'd sown.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:
Apart from reappearing after being dead at a great distance from where she was killed, and apart from finding her own body, and apart from having visions of her father reteaching her some quasi-mystical song, and apart from having some sort of divine spidey sense that told her where to jump to get closer to earth that subsequently led the Icarus to finding the Cylon baseship...
The corpse of Thrace on the Cylon Earth is the biggest mystery. The rest of it isn't any more noteworthy than many of the predictions Baltar, Caprica, and Roslin got.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Specifically I asked how someone in that setting could know the things they know. Time travel not being a possibility ever explored or even mentioned, I rather think that takes it off the table.
I don't see why. They never explained how the head-agents do their work, what mechanism was involved in Starbuck resurrecting, or even who the head-agents answer to. There are all sorts of things that weren't explicitly explained. On one hand, I'm not particularly upset that they didn't, BSG has a good history of touching on interesting subjects and topics (human rights, abortion, etc) without necessarily giving a "right" answer but on the other hand, I don't see why we can't speculate on the answers.
quote:My personal opinion is that she was simply a human agent of the supernatural. Aside from finding her own body, exactly what did she do that was supernatural?
Well, the vanishing act for one could be perceived as supernatural. But I'm not sure why you're asking that. If I don't think that a supernatural explanation necessary, why ask what I think is supernatural?
quote:You're really cherry-picking things to respond to, aren't you?
I don't see how. I'm answering everything that seems relevant to me. If you have a specific question that you feel I missed, then feel free to point it out. Your snark seems to be unnecessary.
Anyways, I don't think the Cylons are as screwed as that. After all, the hostile Cylons must have other ships left aside from the colony, I don't think they managed to wipe out every last ship by destroying the hub and the colony. Additionally, the purely mechanical Cylons don't need humanoid Cylons to construct them, we already knew that they were able to create each other during the first Cylon War. As for the friendly centurion Cylons, they really don't know if they might change their mind and become unfriendly.
quote: (attack, out of fear? Why would the colonials ever corner one of them?)
Why do we have bear attacks and shark attacks even now? It happens. Its been documented that even chimpanzees in the wild now have the equivalent of war, these primitive humans are probably no different.
quote: I think one of the points was simply that they had had enough of war. All of them. You're reaching.
Dubious. They're humans and humans rarely have enough of conflict. Remember, its only a couple of episodes since Adama said to Helo that he needed a marine escort in case someone left over from the mutiny or angry about siding with the Cylons might try to take him down.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:It wasn't scripted that way. Cavil was supposed to be thrown off a top level deck in the CIC by Tigh. But the actor felt that if things deteriorated that way, Cavil would rather just end it himself.
My reasoning is that Cavil simply realized that, no, he was never going to get out of that room with Hera. Many would have protested, but someone (especially to Cavil's mind) would've killed her and gone for mutual destruction rather than let her leave and then have the Galactica and all aboard her destroyed anyway.
quote:I know Athena had to kill Boomer, but I'm a little sad about it.
Me too. What's funny to me is that the Cylons really did Boomer's final betrayal to themselves. They created a being with intense survivor's guilt, and presumably thought that prolem would be controlled.
quote:I think that if Tory had told Galen what she did before letting him find out that way, he might possibly not have killed her.
I think that maybe if Tory had prostrated herself - literally - and wept begging for forgiveness Galen might have spared her. Tyrol's certainly got a temper, after all, and it would take a great deal to overcome his feelings on the matter. Consider what must've gone through his mind. All the hatred and cynicism and disgust with Cally he expressed - in public, no less - was based on a lie.
Yeah, Tory was a total scumbag once she discovered she was a Cylon, and decided that meant no rules applied to her.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I'd count all the visions they had as supernatural too.
Of all the visions they all had, I can only think of one that wasn't specifically related to some sort of plot advancement. Most of them had to do with moving the plot along in some way, or setting up elements that would later be important to moving the plot along.
But I wonder about the visions that Roslin was having when the Baseship was jumping towards The Hub. It was much more about personal development, and only tangentially related to the plot, unless her and Adama professing their love for each other was in any way important to the plot, and I don't really think it was. Those visions are what forced her to do some introspective self analysis, and she came out the other side a different, somewhat softer person than she'd grown to become.
Are there any other examples of visions coming about for personal growth rather than for plot purposes? I guess hers and Adama's romance was as much a part of the plot as Helo/Athena or Lee/Kara, but other than Helo and Athena, none of those plots were absolutely necessary to the overarching Cylons vs. Humans plot.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Mucus,
quote:...I don't see why we can't speculate on the answers.
Well, because speculation should IMO have some basis in reality (or in this case, the setting) or else it's just total wild-ass-guessery, that's all.
quote:Well, the vanishing act for one could be perceived as supernatural. But I'm not sure why you're asking that. If I don't think that a supernatural explanation necessary, why ask what I think is supernatural?
I'm asking because you cited Thrace, and I was asking in response what exactly she's done that's more supernatural than the Head-people.
quote:Why do we have bear attacks and shark attacks even now? It happens. Its been documented that even chimpanzees in the wild now have the equivalent of war, these primitive humans are probably no different.
Why do we have bear and shark attacks even now? In the majority of cases, it's rooted in human ignorance. Most of them could be avoided. Not that shark attacks are commonplace anyway.
quote:Dubious. They're humans and humans rarely have enough of conflict. Remember, its only a couple of episodes since Adama said to Helo that he needed a marine escort in case someone left over from the mutiny or angry about siding with the Cylons might try to take him down.
It's dubious that people have enough of conflict? No, it's not. Bear in mind I'm not saying they had enough of conflict forever, just that those human beings remaining would have felt that way.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tammy: I wish they would have ended it with Hera roaming the fields. I hated the ending, 150,000 years later...earth screwed as usual.
I think the sole purpose of the ending was to give Ron Moore a cameo (he's the one reading the National Geographic magazine, isn't he?)
I'm still confused about Kara... I don't think she's a "Head-Kara" as some say because she obviously had a physical presence. But her popping out of existence... uh, what the hell?
And after all his screw ups, Baltar *does* end up with a real, tangible hot blonde.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Well, because speculation should IMO have some basis in reality (or in this case, the setting) or else it's just total wild-ass-guessery, that's all.
Well, yes. But thanks to the show we know little or nothing about the head-beings aside from that they seem to have magical-like powers, that one seems to claim to be an agent of god while the other doesn't like the idea, and that they probably sent back Kara along with head-piano guy. I think "wild-ass-guessery" is pretty much the order of the day when it comes to speculation about them.
quote:I'm asking because you cited Thrace, and I was asking in response what exactly she's done that's more supernatural than the Head-people.
Huh? You asked me for an example of a way that head-six could have influenced events aside from via Baltar. I gave the example of them presumably sending Kara Thrace back to influence events, something that has little connection with Baltar. I just don't see why you're asking about the supernatural.
quote:In the majority of cases, it's rooted in human ignorance. Most of them could be avoided.
Maybe, but we have also have systems to deal with this. We make sure dangerous animals don't stroll into cities and we kill the ones with a history of attacking humans, animal control and the like. Also, safety in numbers. I don't see the appeal in giving that up especially when planning to have children.
quote:Bear in mind I'm not saying they had enough of conflict forever, just that those human beings remaining would have felt that way.
Again, I don't buy it. Even if its only someone going after Baltar.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nighthawk:
quote:Originally posted by Tammy: I wish they would have ended it with Hera roaming the fields. I hated the ending, 150,000 years later...earth screwed as usual.
I think the sole purpose of the ending was to give Ron Moore a cameo (he's the one reading the National Geographic magazine, isn't he?)
I'm still confused about Kara... I don't think she's a "Head-Kara" as some say because she obviously had a physical presence. But her popping out of existence... uh, what the hell?
And after all his screw ups, Baltar *does* end up with a real, tangible hot blonde.
Nah, Moore has said that the scene in Times Square has been on the books for quite awhile, and his decision to put himself in the scene was rather spur of the moment, but that he now regrets putting himself there because it is too much of a distraction.
And I don't think that Kara is a Head character at all. I think she was more or less an angel sent back to perform a couple specific tasks, and with her work done, she faded away.
I'm so glad that Baltar ended up doing the things he did. It turns out that his religious...confusion, over the last season and a half wasn't all just crap, it wasn't a ploy, he really did change, and I'm glad Caprica Six saw that. His being there was instrumental in the very short lived truce that was formed before Tyrol went nuts and killed Tory. Without him, Hera might have been killed in the CIC, or killed somewhere else on the ship. Did he redeem himself for everything bad that he did in his life? Maybe not, but I think when push came to shove, he did exactly what he was supposed to do, and his story is an incredibly interesting one just looking at the character growth over four seasons.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
I was thinking... the biggest irratation about the finale that gets to me is that fact that they would, notion about breaking the Cycle of Time and all that, give up all their remaining high tech and starships and reactors and jump drives, and music, and culture, and poetry, and books...
That Colonial society is now and forever extinct.
In reality NO ONE would go for that. Not without a fight. And not without the Lords of Kobol or God or Satan or whatever these powers are in our faces and telling us "give up your medicine and history and culture and tech or die forever".
I understand why the survivors are doing what they did...but they could have shown it to us in a better and more believable way. More lifelike...more real...
Eh.
For me civilizations, cultures, nations, worlds, are as important as any/all characters on the show. So to keep jumping in time to Caprica, capital of Mankind, was not just to show where the characters came from and how far they've come, but it is also showing what was lost.
That the nation that was the 12 Colonies of Man is now dead forever. All music and art and science they ever made was thrown on a starship and burned in a star.
Talk about suicide and dishonoring your anscestors.
And rewatching I just felt his growing sense of loss... knowing that Colonial society was about to give up the ghost... sure, for the long term survival of our DNA, but still... The survivors willingly destroyed everying their anscestors ever built or invented or made beautiful... a horrible death. The death of a culture.
Can you imagine someone giving up Mozart, Bach, Shakespear, Steven Hawkins, etc?
And in that way I'm happy...that the writers could make me feel an emotion. (again, wish we could have seen the people struggle with that idea as much as I have).
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
And yet maybe giving up those things was necessary, or maybe it was the final price they paid for the chance to really start over again. Maybe to break the cycle they really had to give all that up.
Under normal conditions I agree it would be impossible to give that stuff up, but after everything they'd been through, "normal" didn't really even exist anymore. They tried starting over on a new planet, and it didn't work. Granted it didn't work because they were conquered by Cylons, and one would think that maybe without Cylons to attack them, starting over in a city was actually a good idea, but they wanted to give it a fresh try, and in order to really break a cycle that old, I think it wasn't a bad choice, and I think that with everything that had just happened, it would have been enough to convince me to give up Mozart and Bach. I would never say I would NEVER give them up, I'd say that it'd take extreme circumstances.
How much more extreme could they get?
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
Worst series finale ever.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: And yet maybe giving up those things was necessary, or maybe it was the final price they paid for the chance to really start over again. Maybe to break the cycle they really had to give all that up.
Under normal conditions I agree it would be impossible to give that stuff up, but after everything they'd been through, "normal" didn't really even exist anymore. They tried starting over on a new planet, and it didn't work. Granted it didn't work because they were conquered by Cylons, and one would think that maybe without Cylons to attack them, starting over in a city was actually a good idea, but they wanted to give it a fresh try, and in order to really break a cycle that old, I think it wasn't a bad choice, and I think that with everything that had just happened, it would have been enough to convince me to give up Mozart and Bach. I would never say I would NEVER give them up, I'd say that it'd take extreme circumstances.
How much more extreme could they get?
While I find the choice reasonably believable, I also think it's a stupid one. Not only did they destroy much of their cultural legacy, their decision also meant that when advanced civilization did reemerge they had forgotten all of the lessons of the past. The cycle may have been broken due to the fact that the new civilization had a clean slate to work with, but they're (or we're, whatever) playing around with the AI technology that started the whole cycle in the first place. If the colonials had rebuilt immediately, they would have passed on the lessons that have been learned the past couple years and used it to avoid restarting the cycle. As it stands, everything was forgotten over the course of thousands of years and it is only random chance that prevents history from repeating.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote: In reality NO ONE would go for that. Not without a fight. And not without the Lords of Kobol or God or Satan or whatever these powers are in our faces and telling us "give up your medicine and history and culture and tech or die forever".
Telperion, they had a fight. In fact, they lost the fight they had, then they had a long, agonizing fighting retreat which they also lost.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
quote:Very disappointed finale. RDM really was making it all up as he went along - and so when he found himself in a corner, instead of trying to resolve matters, he just gave up. Everyone who actually cared about the mythology of this show is left a fool. Every minute talking about it turns out to have been a waste...
This is how I felt watching it as well. And not just because he used "supernatural" elements to explain the major plot points, but it was how he used those supernatural elements. I've been relatively disappointed throughout the return of this season though. I thought they backed themselves into a lot of corners and used many a cheap method to pull themselves out(Tyrol not being the father of their baby, having Caprica Six's baby die(because she didn't think Tigh loved her enough )). To me it was just really unsatisfying how they closed up a lot of the loose ends. Particularly Starbuck's whole story line.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
I just can't help but imagine Adama thinking "you mean I could have found Earth four years ago simply by putting Kara at the helm and telling her 'Just jump us ANYWHERE!'? DAMN!"
Posted by sylvrdragon (Member # 3332) on :
[quote=Rakeesh]You'd never heard that term before? I always thought it was pretty well-known, but I'm hardly an expert on what terms are well known and what aren't.
Anyway, this wasn't deus ex machina, simply because the supernatural intervention didn't come out of nowhere. It's been part and parcel of the story almost from the first part of the miniseries. [/quote]
I had certainly heard of the term before, but I was never bothered to actually look it up.
When I use the term, I'm talking more about the Head-Agents than anything. There were so many other avenues this could have gone; So many unused possibilities; so many unanswered questions that when it came down to "Who are the Head Beings?" "Oh, those are Angels."... Seriously?
It would have been better to have had them just disappear and not try to explain who they were at all. Optimally, they should have been agents to some puppetmaster that we could possibly relate to. Something that may have been the end product of one of the many unanswered questions (Lords of Kobol, for instance). Something that was evolved/created from humanity.
As a writer, it is your job to explain why things are happening in your world. I am of the opinion that when you end it with some pre-packaged (One might argue Outdated and Cliche) unexplainable phenomenon, then you have stopped trying, and as such, have failed in your task.
My main gripe isn't that it had a bad ending. It's that I had so much time and attention vested in this story and my expectations were so high that to be shot down with "Because we said so; because we're Angels and we can do that." is so anti-climatic that it's depressing.
I can deal with a Sci-Fi story containing religion. I can even deal with them taking it seriously. What I can't deal with is when Religion is the Answer in a Sci-Fi story.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I KNEW IT! I KNEW IT! I KNEW IT! I KNEW IT!
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: ... How much more extreme could they get?
I figure if they killed off enough people in the show to get below four digits and maybe one or two ships, then building a new city would be fairly hopeless anyways and they may as well do the hunter/gatherer thing
quote:Originally posted by Nighthawk: I just can't help but imagine Adama thinking "you mean I could have found Earth four years ago simply by putting Kara at the helm and telling her 'Just jump us ANYWHERE!'? DAMN!"
Heh.
On the other hand, we do know the Galactica has a Cylon jump drive which has a much greater range than when they started out. Still, we know Earth2 is within one Cylon jump from the colony and also that it has the same constellation pattern as Earth1 which seems to indicate that the two cannot be too far apart. So that gives us some bounds on how far Earth2 (our Earth) could be.
Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: Worst series finale ever.
No, that was X-Files.
But this one was bad too.
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: On the other hand, we do know the Galactica has a Cylon jump drive which has a much greater range than when they started out. Still, we know Earth2 is within one Cylon jump from the colony and also that it has the same constellation pattern as Earth1 which seems to indicate that the two cannot be too far apart. So that gives us some bounds on how far Earth2 (our Earth) could be.
Did they check for star patterns when they arrived at Earth Mark 2? I didn't even think about that.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
quote:Did they check for star patterns when they arrived at Earth Mark 2? I didn't even think about that.
Nope, was never even considered. Kinda was like "Hey, this ain't such a bad place, I think. Let's call it 'Earth' just for kicks... Take that star chart and stuff it, Athena!"
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
GS: Don't have to, unless they're pulling yet another switcheroo Earth2 is our Earth and we can verify that the star patterns are correct for ourselves Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
What would they have checked for? The planet was completely unknown to them, and they just decided to call it Earth.
Posted by Mocke (Member # 11963) on :
I just want to say that I was right... about the ship crashing into the colony.
I don't think Moore was making it all up as he went along. I know there are a lot of elements in it that weren't planned, like the final five, and Helo suriving past the first half of season 1. But, he only intended it to go for four seasons. He had a story to tell, he had a solid beginning, and he knew how he wanted it to end. Getting there was his adventure, and I am glad he shared with us.
I would've liked to know more about Kara. And who God was.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
Why did Head-Baltar-Angel say "It doesn't like to be called that" when Head-Six-Angel mentioned God?
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Presumably because it doesn't like to be called that?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I can deal with a Sci-Fi story containing religion. I can even deal with them taking it seriously. What I can't deal with is when Religion is the Answer in a Sci-Fi story.
One of the things I was shocked to learn years ago was that normal people don't perceive a difference between science fiction and fantasy.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Why did Head-Baltar-Angel say "It doesn't like to be called that" when Head-Six-Angel mentioned God?
Foreshadowing for us to find out who it really is in some other source material.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Why did Head-Baltar-Angel say "It doesn't like to be called that" when Head-Six-Angel mentioned God?
Foreshadowing for us to find out who it really is in some other source material.
I still think that they're related to the Lords of Kobol. As far as we know, they're the ones that got everything started when they created humanity. It's implied that they are/seem supernatural, so it makes sense that they wanted to try to guide everything to a peaceful resolution.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Then why the frequent contrast between the colonial's polytheism and the Cylon monotheism? I think we're talking about separate entities.
I also think "It doesn't like to be called [God]" and even Baltar's comments about "God" being a force of nature are meant to allow those viewers who don't want to buy into a religious interpretation a bit of a more sci-fi one. "God" in the context of BSG is really just as likely to be some highly advanced alien entity. I don't think that the Baltar and Six angels ever even claimed that "God" created humanity, just that he has plans for them.
Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Why did Head-Baltar-Angel say "It doesn't like to be called that" when Head-Six-Angel mentioned God?
That's because it is MORDAC! The great chess computron of Ramnon Prime!!!!
Few things I wanted to comment on:
Constellations: Since Earth 2 is our earth. Our versions of the consellations would be named for the stories of the original ones, but they would not be the same set of stars that they used to confirm the location of Earth 1. I would say that they would have the same configuration as the original ones, but I would highly doubt that our constellations would be same actual constellations that they used to find Earth 1.
Head-Beings: I don't think that it was a cop out at all to leave their existance completely unexplained. RDM left that up to us to decide.
I would say that for people of faith it would be fair to explain them away as angels, emissaries of an immortal God whose purpose is to provide guidance and influence through mortal vessels (ie prophets) to help mankind reach a higher purpose.
I would also say that is fair for athestists to see them as beings that exist in some plane of existance that has basis in science and fact. They could come from a race of beings from an incredibly an advanced civilization that sees a need to interfere in the civilizations of other races in the universe for their own purposes. Maybe those reasons are altrusitic or nefarious, moral or amoral, or simply it is all part of a grand experiment.
Either way, he purposly left them up to our own interpretation. Fun to debate to say the least. I think the more interesting question would be are both us of right?
Loose Ends: Yes they certainly did do alot of cleaning up this season, however I don't think that any of what they did was outside the realm of believability. Cally cheating on Tyrol, not unbelievable. Six losing the baby? Remember how unstable Athena's pregnacy was? Hera was a premie for cryin out loud.
Kara: I believe that RDM stated in his interview with the one of the Chicago newspapers that Kara was somewhat intended to be BSG's version of Jesus Christ, an allegory or origin of the myth as it were. As flawed as a character as she was, she did eventually lead them to their salvation on Earth. She even died and came back as part of the process. An event that could, within the context of the BSG universe, have a scientific explanation as well as a religious one.
I agree with what others have said in this forum. BSG rarely was about presenting answers, more about asking questions.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Yeah I wondered what that was supposed to mean.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
ricree101 and neo-dragon: I think that the colonial's polytheism was based on the Lords of Kobol. The Cylon's monotheism seems at first glance to be similar to what the Head-Six refers to as God but Head-Baltar disagrees (as to referring to it as God). Meh.
So yes, it seems like the question is very open to interpretation. But in general, the idea of a vastly superior race manipulating mankind is a theme that appears and reappears in science fiction from places like 2001, Star Trek, and B5. So thats why from a "religious" POV, I really don't mind all that much as an atheist.
quote:Originally posted by ReddwarfVII: ... Constellations: Since Earth 2 is our earth. Our versions of the consellations would be named for the stories of the original ones, but they would not be the same set of stars that they used to confirm the location of Earth 1. I would say that they would have the same configuration as the original ones, but I would highly doubt that our constellations would be same actual constellations that they used to find Earth 1.
Actually, we already saw the actual constellations in the Tomb of Athena. They pretty much match ours.
Now with a moderate margin of error, I could see that the constellations could describe an area large enough to contain another habitable planet aside from ours, but the constellations put a maximum bound on the area in which both Earths can exist and it should be relatively small compared to the size of the galaxy.
Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: Actually, we already saw the actual constellations in the Tomb of Athena. They pretty much match ours.
Now with a moderate margin of error, I could see that the constellations could describe an area large enough to contain another habitable planet aside from ours, but the constellations put a maximum bound on the area in which both Earths can exist and it should be relatively small compared to the size of the galaxy.
I see what you are saying, but I am still arguing that the descendants of the colonies could have looked up into the sky and named different constellations with similar or near exact configurations the old names. In their situation, I would say that this was only way they had left to pass down their civilization to their children, through their stories.
While it is true they were only one cylon tech FTL jump from the colony to Earth 2, they could have been a few or dozens of jumps away from Earth 1. Plus, we don't even know how long it took for the Raptor to jump back to the rendezvous point with the Basestar and the rest of the fleet while the Galatica was orbiting Earth.
So yeah, all I am saying is that you can't assume that they were looking up into the night sky on Earth 2 and seeing the same stars.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
For that matter, the constellations put a maximum bound on the timeframe, too. The stars move over the years. But the authors don't appear aware of this.
Posted by Marlozhan (Member # 2422) on :
I think the finale when they found earth the first time was better than this one (until, of course, they discovered it was nuked). I think one of the things that bugged me most about their arrival at our earth, was how anti-climatic the response of all the characters were. I wanted to see these people rejoice at their arrival. Yet, the next scene we see is a bunch of people laying in the grass, studying the natives.
Where's the rejoicing? The relief? Everyone seemed to be more apathetic than they were prior to finding earth (except for a few moments, like Lee getting excited about exploring). It seemed to me that the people's spirits were broken beyond repair, so that when they arrived, they were unable to feel joy at their arrival.
Instead, it just felt like people wanted to go their own separate ways and just die. I know not everyone felt this way, but that's the emotional effect it had on me.
I suppose that this whole emotional effect was Ron Moore's desire all along, but I have been waiting throughout this whole series to finally take a big breath of relief along with these characters, and feel the reward for battling through such tremendous circumstances. Yet, in the end, this episode felt more like a funeral (not just for Roslin) than a celebration.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed most of it and there are parts of the ending that have stuck with me, but I also feel oddly melancholy even 2 days later. Maybe that means it had its desired effect on me, but I am not yet convinced it is the effect I wanted to feel.
On a more lighthearted note, since Hera is half cylon, and I am therefore a descendant of her, does that mean I can interface with my computer through my arm and make it do whatever I want? Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Marlozhan, I feel the same way.
I think part of the reason for the lack of rejoicing on the part of the people was that they are basically being forced to surrender (what remains) of their culture to oblivion. Lords know I would feel pretty sh*@#y too.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
I'm glad the prophecy was wrong about Roslin not seeing Earth.
Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
Moore said the finale would be 15-20 minutes longer on the DVD, maybe there'll be some rejoicing in that version.
Posted by Damien.m (Member # 8462) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: I'm glad the prophecy was wrong about Roslin not seeing Earth.
Thats because Kara was the dying leader. Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Perhaps people were a bit hesitant to openly rejoice because the last two times they'd thought they found a planet to settle on it ended up being a horrible disappointment.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Actually, I think Galactica may have been the dying leader. But I'm not particularly concerned about which prophecies did and did not come true, or how. Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by ReddwarfVII: ... So yeah, all I am saying is that you can't assume that they were looking up into the night sky on Earth 2 and seeing the same stars.
I'm not sure I quite understand what you're proposing. It seems to me that you're saying that the humans on Earth1 picked certain stars to create their constellations and that the humans on Earth2 may have picked completely different stars to form the constellations and that while the constellations are fixed the stars may not be?
I don't know, it seems like that may be possible but it seems rather improbable.
TomDavidson: Yes, there should be a time bound too.
quote:Originally posted by Marlozhan: ... Instead, it just felt like people wanted to go their own separate ways and just die. I know not everyone felt this way, but that's the emotional effect it had on me.
It seemed fairly sad to me too. So everyone just breaks up to live probably short and brutal lives with no real development that would ever show up in the archaeological record. Heck, they even ash the bar piano. Despite the talk of family, Lee will probably never see his father again, Kara disappears, Galen won't see anyone, and so forth. Additionally, its even implied that Hera dies young and becomes mitochondrial eve? *shrug*
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
On the bright side, maybe we'll get a spin-off set in the past where Adama beats down a woolly mammoth with a flashlight.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
I just have a hard time accepting that they find the remains of Hera, but not the remains of a forty ton Raptor here and there...
Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
quote:I think the finale when they found earth the first time was better than this one (until, of course, they discovered it was nuked).
Yeah! If they were just going to find Earth by fiat through some random impulse of Starbuck's, why do it twice in a row?
Maybe I should adopt the attitude that the show really ended after season 4.0. The problem with that, of course, is that the early 4.5 episodes were pretty good.
Posted by caseyjp1 (Member # 12006) on :
Hi all.Long time lurker. Really curious as to why uncle Orson never comments on BSG. A show this good sorta' deserves his take on it imho. Anyway... I posted this over at Maureen Ryan's site in response to some of the Kara questions as well as a bit of other stuff. Thought you might be interested in this take: -snip- Hi there Maureen, I don't know if you're still reading this section, but I felt compelled to post this in a bit of a rebuttal to the "fans" whinging about 'religion' or 'spirituality' and also ragging about deux ex machina regarding Kara's role in the end-game.
First off a quote from one of the brightest minds of our time in science fiction and science:
"Any technology sufficiently advanced will be indistinguishable from magic" - Arthur C. Clarke
In the canon of BSG, far back in their history, up until Kobol, the gods and men lived together, and were even referred to in Pythia as "The LORDS of Kobol". The humans named this pantheon Zeus, Athena, Apollo, etc.
While there is no name for the 'head 6/baltar' "angels", there is absolutely no reason NOT to assume that these were those Lords still with the human race.
It can also be inferred based on the backstory given in the series that these were POST-PHYSICAL beings of great power that to a more primitive race would seem just like...gods.
They are shown in the show to have been manipulating and guiding humanity, but not FORCING them. Thus the stuck-in-a-rut mentality of human kind to keep repeating the same mistakes over and over.
This leads to Kara. In her death in the great dark spot, she is given the oppotunity to change things with her Mother, and to come to grips with a 'destiny' by what appears to be a Leoben, but when she asks towards the end agrees with her that he really isn't Leoben. He would be, by the show's definition, one of the gods sent to assist her to the next phase of her existence, to, if you will, prepare her for the role they have seen her play in the end.
That she returns as PHYSICAL is not deux ex machina OR all that vague if one recalls the episode where Baltar is forced into a corner by the PHYSICAL SIX that lays out the fake evidence of his complicity in the destruction of the colonies. That was one of the "angels" and she WAS physical until Baltar comes to accept a higher power and bows to that authority in his jail cell. THEN that six vanished...utterly, leaving only the reading glasses on the CIC dradis table.
So we have precedent for their physical capability, and it now takes no great leap of intuition to realize that Kara has been sent back to help. She doesn't wave a magic wand, she doesn't save the day on her own. She doesn't even act to jump the ship until someone else TELLS her to get them the hell out of there, and THEN, she puts together the pieces to the extent of hoping that the music/numbers are the right thing to do.
Even then she still doesn't completely understand until she is on Earth with Apollo and the look in her eyes changes. You see she now realizes that this "journey" is done and that she has done what she was supposed to do...and vanishes the same way the physical six did in the fake pictures of baltar episode.
There does NOT have to be any religion involved, but spirituality yes. Even then this spirituality can be given a non-bearded god-guy slant by understanding that the Lords of Kobol are the progenitors, the parents, if you will of the younger human race, and want what is best for them, but are unwilling to force the issue other than by providing a guiding hand.
Humans still have the choice to ignore or do the wrong thing. And that at the end, for me, is what makes this show great. -------
anyway, my 2 cents on Kara and how the pieces fit together for her 'vanishing'.
Also, regarding the Earth question, its a sly trick by the producers, but if you take a close look at the episode where they find the nuked version...you will NEVER see any familiar landmarks. The audience just assumed (as did I) that it was OUR Earth. It was never meant to be that. Remember, the name "Earth" is actually pretty generic. It was purposeful misdirection by the show runner (RDM), and isn't playing games at all, other than to get the audience into the same "oh crud, now what?" mind set that the folks involved have once they find it and realize the place is devastated.
What an amazing wonderful, thought provoking program this was!
Posted by caseyjp1 (Member # 12006) on :
Also, there is a good article on the discovery.com site with the science advisor to BSG. He indicates that the constellation issues in season 2 in the tomb were a screw-up. He forgot to get the right information to the production team until they were too far 'done' with post production to change anything.
So, all the arguments about that bit...welp, its just an "oops" by their science guy.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:They are shown in the show to have been manipulating and guiding humanity, but not FORCING them. Thus the stuck-in-a-rut mentality of human kind to keep repeating the same mistakes over and over.
You know, it's exactly this sort of thing that most annoys me about gods. I swear, if I ever discover that I made some perfectly avoidable mistake because the leggy blonde in my head didn't tell me she was speaking for God when she gave me advice, I will be very annoyed.
Posted by caseyjp1 (Member # 12006) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nighthawk: I just have a hard time accepting that they find the remains of Hera, but not the remains of a forty ton Raptor here and there...
If they arrived here 10-15k years ago, I'd agree. But 150,000 years? The remains of Hera weren't remains, they were FOSSILIZED remains.
A raptor would have long and LONG since been rusted to dust and vanished.
The amount of time involved here is something a lot of people just can't perceive with any degree of comfort.
We have real difficulty in anthropological digs even as recent as 20-30,000 years back. Finds such as Lucy, and the "eve" that was discovered recently are RARE as hens teeth and extraordinary amounts of luck are involved in finding these remains, and even then we don't find much more than bits and pieces of these.
I bought the story based on the span of time between then and now.
Another thought. Hera was our "eve". This means that those who landed may have provided some dna to the modern version of 'us', but if you follow the logical path, they didn't survive as a race. Hera's blood led to us. So in that way, lol, Kara DID lead them to their "end" in more ways than one.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Technically, that's not true. Every single one of the colonists could have left descendants. It's just that there are no direct lines of maternal descent but Hera's left in existence.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
i wish they wouldve left a few raptors on the moon for us to discover and glean FTW drives from. Surely a race able to reach the moon must've learned to get past its differences?
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
Which means that we're all descendents of Carl Agathon, human, and Athena, cylon.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
so we are all descended from Koreans.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: Additionally, its even implied that Hera dies young and becomes mitochondrial eve? *shrug*
If she really did become mitochondrial eve, she couldn't have died that young.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
quote: Surely a race able to reach the moon must've learned to get past its differences?
Not only is that not true in the colonials' experience, it isn't true in our experience either.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by ricree101:
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: Additionally, its even implied that Hera dies young and becomes mitochondrial eve? *shrug*
If she really did become mitochondrial eve, she couldn't have died that young.
So in order for that NatGeo article to say that she died as a young woman, a young woman in that era would probably be late teens or early twenties? I dunno.
Of course the whole thing can be disregarded as poetic license, the head-beings are rarely straight-forward and do lie anyways. *shrug*
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shigosei:
quote: Surely a race able to reach the moon must've learned to get past its differences?
Not only is that not true in the colonials' experience, it isn't true in our experience either.
I see your sarcasm detector broke down and is away for repairs.
But in any case, It would have been awesome irregardless if they had left their entire history and technology on hard disk on a raptor on the moon, surely it wouldve been protected for quite some time? They must be hardened against solar flairs and gamma bursts.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Interesting chat with Jane Espenson here. Posted by ReddwarfVII (Member # 8879) on :
Well, since no one else has said it, I think that I will. Thanks to everyone on this forum for the debate over the years. It was a great run for a show worth discussing. An occurance which I think will become more rare for a few years. As I said earlier, all good things.....
Don't worry, I'll get the lights on the way out.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
I don't think that Kara randomly jumped to Earth2. She finally realized that the notes in the song could be translated to jump coordinates. I thought that was fairly obvious from the way it was filmed.
Also, I can understand how the mythology, including the names of constellations, could have been handed down generation to generation, and it makes sense that the people would look up in the sky and name new constellations with the old names. Just as the 12 gods of Kobel became the Greek gods.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
No new bsg tonight. It's a strange feeling.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
Yeah, I'm trying to figure out what to do with myself tonight.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Carrie: Yeah, I'm trying to figure out what to do with myself tonight.
Usually I'd just watch Psych instead, but even that isn't on.
And now it's months until new Psych, new Stargate, new Caprica or BSG movie...
This is going to be one depressing movie TV wise.
Posted by Lanfear (Member # 7776) on :
I'm debating whether to just start the series over on friday nights...
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
You'll just have to deal with it with Dollhouse and Terminator: Sarah Connor Chronicles.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
Great cover, though. Perhaps I'll post that on my LJ tomorrow and see if I can't actually pull an April Fool's. Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
quote:"Our nation finds itself in uncharted territory in the deep emptiness of space," Obama announced. "The Old Girl has limited supplies, no allies, and now, no hope. I never said this would be an easy journey. Yet I promise you this: There is a place where there is no war and no economic turmoil. It is where, according to the Sacred Scrolls handed down to us by the Lords of Kobol, the thirteenth tribe traveled over three thousand years ago. That place is called Earth. Not the other Earth. This Earth. It's complicated. Anyway, I plan to take us there."
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lanfear: I'm debating whether to just start the series over on friday nights...
No Burn Notice either. I usually watch it on Hulu on fridays.
Atleast Rescue Me is coming back and Rob Thomas(Veronica Mars) has a new show.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
But Burn Notice will be back in June. So at least it isn't a long wait.
Posted by Imamess (Member # 11549) on :
I don't know if anyone keeps up with Bear's blog, but I found his thoughts on the last episode to be pretty interesting (even if I don't understand much of the music lingo...)
For those also in BSG withdrawal, the last science fiction-themed CSI had Ron Moore in an awesome cameo scene (plus two other cast members in non-speaking cameos) plus the actress that plays Ellen Tigh. (Also, Corwin for those B5 fans)
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I just watched the Caprica pilot...
I am not disappointed.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I'll watch it when it hits Sci-Fi, but I won't make a special effort otherwise.
I'm glad to see positive reviews here on Hatrack, where I know the BSG fans have a discerning eye for quality. It gives me hope for what I though was a questionable idea.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
It was amazing. And chilling.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Guess what! It's time for ANOTHER BSG "reimagining". Is nothing sacred?
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
That... sounds like a terrible idea. I mean, counting "The Plan", the current BSG hasn't even finished yet.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
Oh dear God.
Le sigh.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
And maybe after that Bryan Singer can reboot the Superman franchise. Heaven knows it needs it after that terrible movie that came out a few years back. Oh, wait. . . .
Posted by Dobbie (Member # 3881) on :
That would have been funnier without the "Oh, wait".
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
I'll be sure to remember that for next time. Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Whoa, a reimagining already? Have any of the main cast died or even gotten mildly ill since the last season ended yet? Not only is the body not cold, it's not even a corpse yet!
Posted by Armoth (Member # 4752) on :
I just finished the series. I'm sorry I missed discussing it with all of you, but I kept this window up and read through as I advanced through the final season. It was awesome to speculate with everyone...
I stopped watching for a few years at the beginning of season 3. I finally pushed through some annoying days on New Caprica and it was worth it. One of the best series I have ever seen. I'm not just saying - "Oh, that was quality telivision" - I'm saying that it had a profound impact on me and I'm glad I watched it.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I'm watching it all over again after having bought the DVDs. I just finished Season 3. You know, watching it all in a rush, back to back to back, I think you actually miss some of the tension and what not that you got from having to wait week to week. On the other hand, some stuff is really easy to pick up on when you don't have to wait multiple years between events.
Posted by Armoth (Member # 4752) on :
I had the option of watching it all in a rush, but I never did. The show is entertaining, sure, but it is also supremely stressful. I had to take many breaks along the way bc I was in pain many times.
Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
I'd love to get the blu-ray set, but have a hard time justifying spending $250.00 on it when I can watch it on Netflix streaming for 'free'.*
* by which I mean, $11.99 a month...
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
quote: I had to take many breaks along the way bc I was in pain many times.
In pain from watching the series or unrelated reason?
It definitely is a stressful series. I wouldn't consider myself "in pain" ever, but between seasons we'd wait a week for new DVDs to come into the library, and the week was helpful to relax a bit before hunkering down for another marathon.
Posted by Armoth (Member # 4752) on :
From watching the series. After many deaths, or disappointed choices by some of my favorite characters...
I have a real life and it can be stressful as well, and when i sit down to watch tv, it is sometimes as an escape. But BSG is NOT an escape, it's written so well that I basically feel like I lived those characters choices and struggles and so there were many times that it was difficult to keep watching.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
What did really frustrate me about the show was that for the last season and a half, I basically didn't like any of the main characters anymore. I didn't necessarily HATE any of them, but none of them had any of the heroic greatness that made me love them in the beginning. And in many cases "has random creepy dreams and becomes a prophet" was used in place of character development. Often in ways that I found particularly unimaginative.
I'm not inherently opposed to the show ultimately being one where God exists and works in mysterious ways. But if so, I'd rather it be treated like the show Kings, which is actually in a lot of ways a very similar show... except it's established very early on that God exists. The rules behind him are mysterious, but in a vague "we're not going to pin down exactly how he works because hey, he's God" sort of way rather than "here's a sci-fi mystery which will eventually be resolved via deus ex machina" sort of way.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
You didnt like Romo?
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
He was a fun character and I think I liked him the most at the end by virtue of his character actually got BETTER instead of everyone else who got worse, but still not a hero I really rooted for.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: What did really frustrate me about the show was that for the last season and a half, I basically didn't like any of the main characters anymore. I didn't necessarily HATE any of them, but none of them had any of the heroic greatness that made me love them in the beginning. And in many cases "has random creepy dreams and becomes a prophet" was used in place of character development. Often in ways that I found particularly unimaginative.
I'm not inherently opposed to the show ultimately being one where God exists and works in mysterious ways. But if so, I'd rather it be treated like the show Kings, which is actually in a lot of ways a very similar show... except it's established very early on that God exists. The rules behind him are mysterious, but in a vague "we're not going to pin down exactly how he works because hey, he's God" sort of way rather than "here's a sci-fi mystery which will eventually be resolved via deus ex machina" sort of way.
I don't know if that really counts as a deus ex machina. We knew from very early on that something supernatural was afoot, and that destiny and higher powers played a serious role in the series, and we knew from the end of the third season that Kara Thrace was going to play a pretty serious role in that journey. And I think we knew from the end of the third season, especially in hindsight of course, that our Earth existed, and we'd eventually get there.
All the pieces were there. We didn't put them together, but I think they make perfect sense and are perfectly in keeping with how the show ran to the point where you can't REALLY say "woah that came out of left field." What you can say was "woah that was unexpected."
I think some people are at the point where they expect television to be a binary state of evil. Either a show is totally guessable, and that's bad because it's too transparent, or a show is too unpredictable, and that's bad because it seems inexplicable. Is it really that surprising that BSG would have a surprise ending? The whole show was a huge series of twists and turns.
The characters are another matter I guess, more of a "to each his own" sort of thing. The show ended with plenty of characters that I still really loved. It only was ever going to get progressively darker, but there were enough bright spots for me to like my favorite characters still at the end. Plenty of characters changed in pretty negative ways that I didn't like from a "but I loved that guy!" perspective, but they got a lot more interesting, like Gaeta.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
Yeah, but Lost's ending didnt come out of left field either.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
quote:we knew from the end of the third season that Kara Thrace was going to play a pretty serious role in that journey
As I said, the last season and a half-ish (which means starting from middle of Season 3 was when I was particularly annoyed).
quote:Is it really that surprising that BSG would have a surprise ending? The whole show was a huge series of twists and turns.
That wasn't surprising at all. What as surprising is that the surprise ending made no sense. For a show that was built upon extreme political drama, and ending where hundreds of sick, old, and handicapped people suddenly all decide to give up the technology that was keeping them alive was incredibly unrealistic. Let alone the thousands of other people giving up the technology that was providing comfort and a decent standard of living. Not everyone knows how to build a log cabin or hunt or farm. Or would want to.
I'd have bought that ending if the Galactica crash landed on Earth, without the ability to contact the fleet, and the change was brought about by necessity rather than choice.
I actually did like the final scene with Starbuck playing the musical song. My issue wasn't that divine manipulation was used, it was that it took over her character development for the previous season almost completely.
The main thing is that I absolutely hated hated HATED Baltar and imaginary-Six from the very beginning, they never got better, and THEY were the mechanism through which most of the divine intervention occurred. Why is God representing himself with a slutty temptress who never seems to actually give that great advice, why is He choosing this jerk as His prophet? I think it's okay for a show to have a genuinely pathetic character, but a) Baltar kept demonstrating, just often enough, that he wasn't ALWAYS pathetic it was really frustrating to see him stay that way. In the end he rescues a baby by being in the right place at the right time... but given the lengths God had to go to to get him there, and the fact that God was also manipulating other people to the same spot and they only missed the baby because Baltar got there... WTF? Serious God, what's wrong with you?
There also weren't enough episodes of Baltar demonstrating actual prowess at science. I only remember one episode where he demonstrates actual useful knowledge (something about the way explosions interact with water) where he wasn't lying through his teeth, and maybe two episodes where we saw him credibly being a good enough politician to get elected. If he's as weasely as the rest of the show makes him look, why would anyone ever trust him with anything ever?
So I guess when I saw "I have a problem with divine intervention" I really mean "I have a problem with the single worst character being the lynchpin of the entire show."
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by umberhulk: Yeah, but Lost's ending didnt come out of left field either.
I stopped watching LOST in the middle of Season 3. My patience ran out. I'm told that people who kept at it were rewarded with a pretty sweet last season, and I'll get to it eventually, but they took way too long to get to the point with absolutely nothing happening in the middle.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
quote:we knew from the end of the third season that Kara Thrace was going to play a pretty serious role in that journey
As I said, the last season and a half-ish (which means starting from middle of Season 3 was when I was particularly annoyed).
quote:Is it really that surprising that BSG would have a surprise ending? The whole show was a huge series of twists and turns.
That wasn't surprising at all. What as surprising is that the surprise ending made no sense. For a show that was built upon extreme political drama, and ending where hundreds of sick, old, and handicapped people suddenly all decide to give up the technology that was keeping them alive was incredibly unrealistic. Let alone the thousands of other people giving up the technology that was providing comfort and a decent standard of living. Not everyone knows how to build a log cabin or hunt or farm. Or would want to.
I'd have bought that ending if the Galactica crash landed on Earth, without the ability to contact the fleet, and the change was brought about by necessity rather than choice.
I actually did like the final scene with Starbuck playing the musical song. My issue wasn't that divine manipulation was used, it was that it took over her character development for the previous season almost completely.
The main thing is that I absolutely hated hated HATED Baltar and imaginary-Six from the very beginning, they never got better, and THEY were the mechanism through which most of the divine intervention occurred. Why is God representing himself with a slutty temptress who never seems to actually give that great advice, why is He choosing this jerk as His prophet? I think it's okay for a show to have a genuinely pathetic character, but a) Baltar kept demonstrating, just often enough, that he wasn't ALWAYS pathetic it was really frustrating to see him stay that way. In the end he rescues a baby by being in the right place at the right time... but given the lengths God had to go to to get him there, and the fact that God was also manipulating other people to the same spot and they only missed the baby because Baltar got there... WTF? Serious God, what's wrong with you?
There also weren't enough episodes of Baltar demonstrating actual prowess at science. I only remember one episode where he demonstrates actual useful knowledge (something about the way explosions interact with water) where he wasn't lying through his teeth, and maybe two episodes where we saw him credibly being a good enough politician to get elected. If he's as weasely as the rest of the show makes him look, why would anyone ever trust him with anything ever?
So I guess when I saw "I have a problem with divine intervention" I really mean "I have a problem with the single worst character being the lynchpin of the entire show."
Oh, well fair enough if you hated Baltar, I guess. I always rather enjoyed him.
And I think Baltar was the best choice of them for a variety of reasons, though, obviously Baltar wasn't the ONLY one that "God" spoke to and through. He was speaking to Caprica Six the whole time, and he gave visions to a number of people, from Sharon Agathon to the most important, Laura Roslin. Baltar wasn't the only game in town. And I suppose it would have been easiest for God to descend from on high to Adama and said "Hey, buddy, um, earth is that way. Mush!" But that would have lacked quite a bit of prose.
In the grand scheme of things, it was really about Baltar's transformation from complete skeptic and cynic to true believer, and that was a pretty long, arduous journey. He needed to be the right guy, at the right place, at the right time to give the speech he gave in the CIC, not just standing where he stood to intercept Hera.
But in general I quite enjoyed Baltar. While most of the characters on BSG are pretty unlike most other characters I've ever encountered, Baltar is even more different. He's not evil, per se, but he does such horrible things out of an overdeveloped love of self, and out of blind desperate self-preservation. And he does tons of pretty brilliant things, from charting their course to earth, to creating the Cylon detector, to curing Roslin. He doesn't do a lot of brilliant things toward the end, but he's not really wearing his "scientist" hat at that point. I think he's fascinating and unpredictable, and his various crises of faith and desire to ultimately belong somewhere make him interesting to watch.
And is it really surprising that a people that had been wiped out and systematically hunted across the galaxy for their overuse of technology would choose to give up that technology for a simpler way of life? Plot-wise, it was absolutely necessary. The whole point of "this has happened before and will happen again" is that humanity was going through a hard reboot of the system, and they had to go back to factory spec. They couldn't keep technology and hold on to everything or the cycle would be incomplete. But on a different level, I can totally see why they'd want to return to a far more basic lifestyle, and there's plenty of aspects of that in our own culture of people wanting to escape or reject technology for a simpler lifestyle. It's not exactly a foreign concept.
If you didn't care for it, then you know, to each his own, no biggie. But the things you specifically have a problem with don't really seem like major problems to me. I don't think it's perfect, and I DO sincerely wish they had made the whole thing a little more Babylon 5-like as far as planning ahead goes, and from time to time things that happened were a little out of left field, but taken as a whole I see a larger pattern, and I didn't really have a big problem with it.
Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
quote: I quite enjoyed Baltar. While most of the characters on BSG are pretty unlike most other characters I've ever encountered, Baltar is even more different. He's not evil, per se, but he does such horrible things out of an overdeveloped love of self, and out of blind desperate self-preservation. And he does tons of pretty brilliant things.... I think he's fascinating and unpredictable, and his various crises of faith and desire to ultimately belong somewhere make him interesting to watch.
I think it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to imagine that Baltar is a representation of many aspects of humanity. Maybe I shouldn't be assigning allegorical implications to the show that may not have been intended by the creators of the series, but Lyrhawn's description of Baltar resonated as a rather poetic description of some of the baser impulses of humanity as a whole.
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Ah, Dee.
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)). To me it was just really unsatisfying how they closed up a lot of the loose ends. Particularly Starbuck's whole story line.