Ok, just as I'm trying to back off Hatrack, this story comes out. Apparently, PETA has asked Ben & Jerry's to replace cow milk with human milk in their ice cream.
My first thought was... ew, then what would they name the flavor... Boobie Fruity (let me know if that is bad and I will edit it out, but I would say that in Mr. Cards living room)?
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
Ewww. Stupid PETA.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
We didn't have a separate topic, but it has gotten some discussion.
Posted by Shmuel (Member # 7586) on :
quote:Originally posted by brojack17: My first thought was... ew, then what would they name the flavor...
Probably either "Oh, the Humanity" or "Hello, Nurse!"
[Edited to note that this makes post #555. I feel good about that.]
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Personally, I find it odd that we actually prefer to drink milk from a completely different species, several species in fact if we consider other kinds of milk, but that we find it gross to drink human milk.
Technically, many of us did drink human milk at one point anyways ...
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Yeah it is funny that drinking milk from a cow seems natural and good and wholesome but drinking human milk sounds disgusting. =)
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: Personally, I find it odd that we actually prefer to drink milk from a completely different species, several species in fact if we consider other kinds of milk, but that we find it gross to drink human milk.
Technically, many of us did drink human milk at one point anyways ...
...when we were babies. Most of the things we did when we were babies get left behind. Losing the urge to feed on "mother's milk" is natural.
PETA's letter reminds me of a really creepy article I read back in 1998, written by a woman who saw nothing wrong with breastfeeding her five year old son, who wondered why people thought she was doing something unhealthy.
At one stage, yeah, it's great. But one grows past it... Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Five is a bit... well... But they do that in other countries. Breast feed until at least 4.
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
Mucus and Tatiana,
I eat beef too, but I don't eat people. I don't know what breast milk tastes like, so I don't know how the ice cream would taste. It may be perfectly fine, but I don't want any.
As far as PETA wanting to use human milk rather than cow milk because of the way cows are treated, what do they think would happen to people. This sounds like an opportunity to exploit the underprivileged. Plus, aren't they vegetarians and vegans? Wouldn't eating ice cream made from human milk be the same as that made from cow milk?
Posted by Xann. (Member # 11482) on :
So they like cows better than people? Or do they think cows don't want to give up there milk?
On you-tube there are news stories about breastfeeding until i think 10, and i know one of 8.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: Five is a bit... well... But they do that in other countries. Breast feed until at least 4.
In other countries they do a lot of stuff.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
I think the problem is we don't think of using fellow humans for food.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:I don't know what breast milk tastes like, so I don't know how the ice cream would taste.
Naturally sweeter than cow milk, often with a kind of fruity aftertaste (like after you eat a honeydew or canteloupe, that kind of aftertaste.)
And the flavor can vary with what you eat before the milk is produced.
For the record, I do not want to drink another woman's breastmilk, thank you very much, but I have licked it off my hand and then scrubbed my hand with a baby wipe plenty of times when I did not want to get up to wash them off... I'm lazy that way.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by Puffy Treat:
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: Five is a bit... well... But they do that in other countries. Breast feed until at least 4.
In other countries they do a lot of stuff.
But some of it kind of makes sense... Like weening after six months and baby wearing.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Those things make breastfeeding past infancy and into childhood make sense? Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Weaning after six months? Who does that?
Most countries that are traditional bastions of baby-wearing are also extended breastfeeding countries.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
quote:I don't know what breast milk tastes like, so I don't know how the ice cream would taste.
Naturally sweeter than cow milk, often with a kind of fruity aftertaste (like after you eat a honeydew or canteloupe, that kind of aftertaste.)
And the flavor can vary with what you eat before the milk is produced.
For the record, I do not want to drink another woman's breastmilk, thank you very much, but I have licked it off my hand and then scrubbed my hand with a baby wipe plenty of times when I did not want to get up to wash them off... I'm lazy that way.
So if they fed the hypothetical women chocolate it would taste like chocolate? Or if they fed them on a strict diet of vanilla and sugar?
That is just making me picture a futuristic nightmare movie full of women attached to milkers... getting stuffed with chocolate. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Ha, not quite. Chocolate imparts a bitter-sweet flavor when consumed in large amounts (at least in my case!)
Spicy food gives it a spicy kick when in large enough quantities, etc.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Weaning after six months? Who does that?
Most countries that are traditional bastions of baby-wearing are also extended breastfeeding countries.
Some seem to ween at 2 or when the kid is ready. (AP people on a site I'm on) I think I've read some books that advice starting solid foods at 6 months or something. But five is a bit... long. I saw some show where the kid was like, 6 or 7 or something. And he could make his own food.
Posted by Darth_Mauve (Member # 4709) on :
Puts a whole new meaning to Dairy Queen now, don't it.
Or "Milk Maid" for that matter.
Come to think of it, how would that look on your resume--2008-2009 Dairy Substitute.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Ha, not quite. Chocolate imparts a bitter-sweet flavor when consumed in large amounts (at least in my case!)
Spicy food gives it a spicy kick when in large enough quantities, etc.
Ew. not sure if I'd want spice to my ice cream.
Perhaps there's a way to be kind to cows and still have yummy chocolate fudge brownie ice cream which is what this topic is making me want
that and Cherry Garcia with the sugary texture I love that the rest of the world hates.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Puffy Treat: Those things make breastfeeding past infancy and into childhood make sense?
Depending on how you define "infancy," this is pretty common. The American Association of Pediatrics reccommends nursing until at least one year old, and the World Health Organization reccommends at least age 2. My just-turned-two year old still nurses 2-3 times a day and I don't see that stopping anytime soon.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Oh. I see.
Starting solids is not the same thing as weaning, in most cases. Posted by Hank (Member # 8916) on :
I think the issue with saying, "Hey, most of us have already done it!" is that most of us have already ingested secretions from our OWN MOTHERS--not some random person. Since, when we were doing the drinking, it was not that long since we had lived inside of the person now doing the lactating, we didn't really have room to get weird about it. As adults, though, it becomes more of an issue. I know that there are just as many sanitary issues with cow milk, but I think that the different-species thing is an important part of us feeling safe. I guess because the people milking cows are professionals, and the people we generally seeing milking women have no motor skills and smell like vomit.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
(Oh, and FYI-- to "ween" is to suppose or imagine. To "wean" is to discontinue something, as breastfeeding, usually gradually. )
Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
quote:Originally posted by Xann.: So they like cows better than people?
Of course. That's practically their motto.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hank: Since, when we were doing the drinking, it was not that long since we had lived inside of the person now doing the lactating, we didn't really have room to get weird about it. As adults, though, it becomes more of an issue. I know that there are just as many sanitary issues with cow milk, but I think that the different-species thing is an important part of us feeling safe. I guess because the people milking cows are professionals, and the people we generally seeing milking women have no motor skills and smell like vomit.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote: I guess because the people milking cows are professionals, and the people we generally seeing milking women have no motor skills and smell like vomit.
Yeah, but lactating women don't spend all day walking around in their own poop.
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
Well, if they can ask for it, you know they are too old.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
I actually don't think this was a serious proposal anyway -- it's an attention grabber and a way to make a point about "stealing" milk from baby cows.
And I wouldn't want to consume milk from an unknown donor or subject women to the kind of controls that would be necessary to insure a healthy milk supply.
And if it were possible to "harvest" large quantities of human milk I think it would be better used to feed babies whose mothers can't or won't breastfeed them, not to make ice cream.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
PETA is trying to get a rise out of people. Apparently, it's working.
Breast milk is sweeter than cow's milk, so given America's sweet tooth they'd probably actually like the breast milk ice cream -- so long as no one told them what was in it.
I've tasted my own breast milk and can't honestly say that I like it, but I am rather used to cow's milk. I gave some to my 2.5-year-old (weaned him at 1.5 so one year later) and he kind of made a face. Guess he got used to the cow's milk already, too.
quote:Originally posted by Puffy Treat: Those things make breastfeeding past infancy and into childhood make sense?
I try not to be judgmental of how long other people nurse. It's a personal decision and there are only 2 relevant players: mom and baby. As long as mom isn't forcing baby to nurse then I don't see the problem with nursing a 5-year-old. It actually takes years for the human immune system to mature and breast milk continues to provide antibodies that can help. The World Health Organization recommends at least 2 years of breast feeding.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elmer's Glue: Well, if they can ask for it, you know they are too old.
Um, no.
My oldest daughter signed for it at 2 months, and asked for it verbally at 5 months.
My current baby daughter is 5 months and has been signing for it for about a month now.
I draw the line at "when they are old enough they will have clear memories of it as adults," but that's a personal line which I do not seek to impose on others.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elmer's Glue: Well, if they can ask for it, you know they are too old.
Because my son is an early developer verbally I should wean him? Not a chance.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elmer's Glue: Well, if they can ask for it, you know they are too old.
What does walking and talking have to do with nursing? There is no medical, emotional, or biological rationale for this perspective. My 4-month-old is already signing for her milk. I guess it's time to quit!
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Oh PETA, you've turned us against one another.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
quote: Five is a bit... well... But they do that in other countries. Breast feed until at least 4.
My wife breast fed our kids until they were about three.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Puffy Treat: Most of the things we did when we were babies get left behind.
As a baby, I breathed, cried, laughed, had my cells divide and multiply ... still do all of those at one point or another.
I believe what you mean is that many of the things that babies do *that adults don't do* get left behind, but in a way thats approaching circular as an actual reason to not do them as an adult.
quote:Originally posted by brojack17: ... This sounds like an opportunity to exploit the underprivileged.
You can hire midwives to breastfeed babies, does that count as exploitation too? Interesting.
quote:Originally posted by dkw:
quote: I guess because the people milking cows are professionals, and the people we generally seeing milking women have no motor skills and smell like vomit.
Yeah, but lactating women don't spend all day walking around in their own poop.
Plus, they can actually choose to milk themselves if thats any better, whereas the cows don't get a choice.
On second thought, I honestly have no idea if thats a good argument or a bad argument to convince people. Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
I think the term is "wet nurse". Midwives deliver the babies and wet nurses nurse them, I think.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
I accept your correction, I think you're right.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Indeed.
And doulas provide labor and/or postpartum support. Often including breastfeeding support and instruction for first-time moms.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Indeed.
And doulas provide labor and/or postpartum support. Often including breastfeeding support and instruction for first-time moms.
Neet. I hope I can get one of those when I have a baby.
Posted by Xann. (Member # 11482) on :
Well either way, it's not going to happen. Were a long way off for a giant company to start making breast milk ice cream because a grop asked them extra nice.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:Originally posted by Xann.: Well either way, it's not going to happen. Were a long way off for a giant company to start making breast milk ice cream because a grop asked them extra nice.
Heh heh. Grop.
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
There are so many babies whose mothers can't nurse that desperately need any donated breastmilk that I can't imagine ever using it to make ice cream. One of Aerin's NICU neighbors got breastmilk from a milk bank because his mother was on chemo and couldn't nurse him herself. That is who needs any spare breastmilk. It's not easy to get for critically ill babies, so I can't imagine giving (or selling) any to those who don't need it. This is a very precious and limited commodity and to suggest using it for commercial purposes, rather than to help sick children, is awful. I'm sure this is a publicity stunt, but it's pretty sickening.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
A thought occurs, inspired by those kosher food threads that seem to proliferate here.
Is human milk kosher? Is it a recursive thing? (i.e. If "you are what you eat" and you keep kosher, is your breast milk kosher?)
Posted by Xann. (Member # 11482) on :
Thats not fair! i can't go back and pretend like i can type now that you quoted me.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Mucus, I think rivka answered that already.
Ah, it was in the other thread.
quote:I have no problem with drinking breast milk in theory. But given that any "donor" might be sick, a smoker, etc., I think I'll pass.
Too bad, though. Breast milk is parve (neither meat nor dairy).
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
So if breast milk were made into cheese, could you use it to make a kosher cheeseburger?
Posted by Shmuel (Member # 7586) on :
Let's see, in no particular order... I don't think there's anything inherently gross about adults consuming human breast milk; whatever creepiness you bring to this is your own. On the other hand, I haven't tried it since infancy myself, and don't feel any particular desire to.
PETA is totally trying to get people to think about the comparative ethics involved, rather than really and truly wanting to get Ben & Jerry's to do this, and while I abhor 99.9% of their tactics, this one's actually rather ingenious. And effective, if this thread is any guide. Well done.
[ September 25, 2008, 12:44 AM: Message edited by: Shmuel ]
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I don't see animals and humans as on par with each other, so I would have no problem wearing a fur to a PETA meeting while eating ice cream, and then breaking out a burger.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
Last year I did pre kindergarten evaluations at the school my mom teaches at (and where I did my EDU Psych service learning). There was a boy there who still was breast fed in the morning and given a bottle of pumped milk at night. He tested high enough to go into a standard classroom. It had a few of the teachers slightly freaked out, I haven't heard how he's doing since school started.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
I would imagine it would be pretty easy for breast milk to turn to cheese. I've seen it curdle into curds back when my ex-wife used to pump her milk out for Skyler to drink later. Leave it out at room temp for a while, it will definitely curdle.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by steven: I would imagine it would be pretty easy for breast milk to turn to cheese. I've seen it curdle into curds back when my ex-wife used to pump her milk out for Skyler to drink later. Leave it out at room temp for a while, it will definitely curdle.
Curdle as in spoil, yes. Form real curds suitable for cheese formation; no. Not enough casein, IIRC. (80% of cow's milk protein is casein, while only 40% of human milk is. Also, human casein is beta-casein, not κ-casein. Casein is what forms the curds.)
I have read about women managing to make a soft cheese, probably along the lines of thin cream cheese or what Israelis call "white cheese", from breast milk.
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: A thought occurs, inspired by those kosher food threads that seem to proliferate here.
They do? Have we had more than one (maybe two) in recent memory?
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: Is it a recursive thing? (i.e. If "you are what you eat" and you keep kosher, is your breast milk kosher?)
IIRC, technically no, but preferably yes. (But I'm basing that primarily on an extra-halachic source (for those who will know what I'm talking about, Moshe and the coal), and it's not really something that comes up too often!)
quote:Originally posted by Mucus:
quote:Originally posted by brojack17: ... This sounds like an opportunity to exploit the underprivileged.
You can hire [wet nurses] to breastfeed babies, does that count as exploitation too?
It can, and at certain times in history, it certainly did. These days I would be far more concerned about the relevant health risks, as dkw pointed out.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by breyerchic04: Last year I did pre kindergarten evaluations at the school my mom teaches at (and where I did my EDU Psych service learning). There was a boy there who still was breast fed in the morning and given a bottle of pumped milk at night. He tested high enough to go into a standard classroom. It had a few of the teachers slightly freaked out, I haven't heard how he's doing since school started.
How did that even come up???
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
"What'd you have for breakfast this morning?" Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
I was sitting with the kids not being tested at one point, and he told me he wanted a bottle, I casually mentioned it to the teacher who talked to his mom. It was obviously a comfort, and that mommy wanted to be close to her little boy (she had two younger girls).
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Ah, got it.
Even if my kids got pumped milk, after they turned one they wouldn't get it in a bottle! I am a firm believer in cup training by a year, no matter what's going IN the cup (in our case usually juice or water, not cow milk, since my kids continue to nurse past that point.)
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
One more name... Soylent Cream.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
That day really made me sure I don't want to teach kindergarten, it's all lines, snot and tying shoes.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by Xann.: So they like cows better than people? Or do they think cows don't want to give up there milk?
On you-tube there are news stories about breastfeeding until i think 10, and i know one of 8.
I'm reminded of that South Park episode....when PETA forces them to change their school mascot (which was a cow), and two of the options are Indians and Braves.
Wendy: But aren't Indians and Braves just as offensive? Mr. Garrison: Well, that's okay, Wendy. PETA doesn't care about people.
-pH
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Ha! That's funny, if I taught something it would be preschool, I think.
Emma has started kindergarten and loves it. She is sounding out short words now, and is about eight letters into her writing curriculum, and I'm seeing marked improvement. And she's learned that any number subtracted from itself is zero. Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
Awesome. I personally think preschool would be easier than kindergarten because there aren't standards that have to be taught so you do have an opportunity to combine those basic life skills with fundamentals of learning subjects and add in creative play.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Hmm, I remember a lot of that in kindergarten, though.
I had an AWESOME kindergarten teacher. I am trying to emulate her as I begin to teach Emma. She made everything both fun and interesting.
Amusingly enough, some of our most learning-rich activities, if not labeled as such, will make Emma whine that she "wants to do homeschool now!" By which she means, she wants her formal writing practice and phonics instruction and other workbook and textbook-y things, lol.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
Well I remember a lot of that in kindergarten too. It's that (in my state at least) the requirements from kindergarten have gotten much more strict in the last 15 years.
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
KQ, You could always supplement her teaching at home. This book is really meant for the bridge from PreK to K but it would proabably work for you.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Out of curiosity, would people be as disturbed by the thought of monkey milk? How about possum milk? I wonder how close the mammal has to be to human before people get weirded out.
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
I'm weirded out by it being human milk. I don't want to use milk product from ANY other animal though. I tried goat milk once and hated it.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
The problem, other than chemical ones that have been discussed such as cheese, is quantity. There just isn't enough breast milk in humans to sustain a product. I am not grossed out by the human milk idea considering pasturization is used. However, it is just insanely unproductive. There is a reason cows and goats are used vs. any other mammal on the planet. I can't say this for a fact, but I imagine it takes ten humans for one cow. Can anyone find production differences?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
On reason why it doesn't make sense to get all our dairy from human lactaion: humans aren't capable of digesting cellulose.
Rumens (cows, goats, sheep, etc.) are really nice food sources because they are able to convert inedible (to us) material and turn it into food (themselves, or their milk).
quote:I would have no problem wearing a fur to a PETA meeting while eating ice cream, and then breaking out a burger.
I'd have a problem with it, because if I did that, it would be to get a rise out of them. It's obnoxious when they do it, and it wouldn't be any better if I did it to them.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:There is a reason cows and goats are used vs. any other mammal on the planet.
Actually, some sheep are raised for their milk (to be made into cheese).
quote:I can't say this for a fact, but I imagine it takes ten humans for one cow.
I'd be really surprised if it were that low.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:I can't say this for a fact, but I imagine it takes ten humans for one cow.
I'd be really surprised if it were that low.
That depends.
Some women produce more than others.
Are the women feeding a baby or just pumping milk?
My baby probably gets 30-40 ounces a day. (Since it's direct nursing, I don't know for sure.) When I pump consistently every morning, I get about 5 oz. If I pumped more often, I could probably get more, but this would require a LOT of work.
If humans were milked the way cows were then I imagine we could produce a lot of milk. Humans are technically capable of nursing twins, triplet, even more babies -- whatever they demand. If you hooked a human up to a pump all day long and fed them some hormones....
But of course, that would be inhumane, which I imagine is PETA's point.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
This probably won't change the minds of people who see PETA as a bunch of crazy freaks, but it's certainly stirring up discussion. I'd have to echo the people saying it's a clever move on PETA's part. There's nothing inherently wrong with drinking human milk, it just has all kinds of cultural stigma against it. (Truth be told, that same cultural stigma I've been raised with since childhood makes me unlikely to try it myself, but I don't pretend I have any logical reasoning for avoiding it)
Regardless, this wouldn't actually work on the Ben and Jerry's scale. I think a small independent restaurant could do this relatively humanely without turning it into exploitation (not so sure about checking the health of the mother... if they get one doctor they trust and require the women to have a physical before signing on... dunno. Maybe).
But if it suddenly looked profitable, I'm pretty sure a large company would find a way to make it just as despicable as the way many cows are treated now. (For the record, I have no problem with hunting or traditional farming, but no matter how you see animals as compared to people, factory farming is terrible)
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
What does PETA think will happen to cows if humans didn't use them for meat and milk?
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I dunno what "PETA" the collective entity believes, but I if you just stop forcing cows to reproduce far beyond what they'll biologically supposed to, their population levels will drop down to what they'd be before human intervention.
To be fair... I'm not sure what happens after that. I think all cows in the US are domesticated at this point, and few people would want to take them in as pets without getting anything in return. But again, I'm not opposed to farming in general, just the way it's currently handled.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kwea: I don't see animals and humans as on par with each other, so I would have no problem wearing a fur to a PETA meeting while eating ice cream, and then breaking out a burger.
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: I dunno what "PETA" the collective entity believes, but I if you just stop forcing cows to reproduce far beyond what they'll biologically supposed to, their population levels will drop down to what they'd be before human intervention.
To be fair... I'm not sure what happens after that. I think all cows in the US are domesticated at this point, and few people would want to take them in as pets without getting anything in return. But again, I'm not opposed to farming in general, just the way it's currently handled.
Cows have been domesticated for about 9000 years. There is no meaningful "before human intervention". Cows as they are now, exist because humans found them useful. We can't exactly release them back into the wild. I suppose some could be kept as oddities in zoos or preserves (or religious icons) but that is about it as far as I can tell.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
kmb, I understand and agree with your general point. But, cows actually did survive "in the wild" reasonably well, even a hundred and 50 years ago. They are an extremely adaptable species. Current beef cattle (last 50 or so years), not quite as well because the calves are so big they often need human aid to give birth, because humans have been breeding them that way. But, especially in the southern areas of the U.S. after the Civil War there were lots of "feral" cows running around and multiplying just fine on their own. "Bushwhacker" came from someone who was running wild cows out of the bush to take to market. The cows survived pretty well without human intervention, the only reason why the humans intervened is because they wanted to eat them.
If I recall correctly the Fields museum has some other varieties of "wild" cow breeds on display, many of which are now extinct, because more "domestic" breeds have taken over with human intervention.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
We have neighbors that are more or less running cows wild with no intervention (other than a haybale in the field). They're obviously crossbreds, some angus, hereford, some type of tall dairy cow (probably holstein), maybe some sort of longhorn or brama. I know he doesn't intervene in births often, and they certainly aren't milked.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
My cousins in Ireland have cows that they don't milk as well, mostly so they can keep their cow license and their land. I suppose that some feral cattle could manage like the deer we see wandering around in the suburbs. A little longer in rural areas as long as the farmers didn't want to use the land for anything else. But talking about cows as if they weren't domesticated animals, which is what PETA is doing, doesn't make any sense.
The vast majority of them would starve or freeze or just plain die if humans didn't have a practical interest in cultivating them.
Posted by Shmuel (Member # 7586) on :
quote:Originally posted by brojack17: One more name... Soylent Cream.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mrs.M: There are so many babies whose mothers can't nurse that desperately need any donated breastmilk that I can't imagine ever using it to make ice cream. One of Aerin's NICU neighbors got breastmilk from a milk bank because his mother was on chemo and couldn't nurse him herself. That is who needs any spare breastmilk. It's not easy to get for critically ill babies, so I can't imagine giving (or selling) any to those who don't need it. This is a very precious and limited commodity and to suggest using it for commercial purposes, rather than to help sick children, is awful. I'm sure this is a publicity stunt, but it's pretty sickening.
I agree. I am a huge fan of breastmilk, and I have made homemade ice cream from it ( for my very allergic daughter's first birthday). Had to stay away from garlic for days, too, though it had nice mocha undertaste. But this is a sill publicity stunt, and if PETA actually wanted to use less moo milk, they'd ask them to add soy or coconut milk desserts to their repetoire.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:I would have no problem wearing a fur to a PETA meeting while eating ice cream, and then breaking out a burger.
I'd have a problem with it, because if I did that, it would be to get a rise out of them. It's obnoxious when they do it, and it wouldn't be any better if I did it to them.
I didn't say I would do it, but that I had no objections to doing it on moral grounds.
If I did that specifically to get a rise I would agree with you. My point was that I could care less what their ideas are as long as they don't try to force me to act as they do.
If you can't distinguish why humans and animals deserve different rights then the problem is with you, IMO.
And if any of them tried to throw animal blood one me I would pelt them with pig's ears and rawhide chips from the pet store...then spray them with pepper spray......made from organic peppers.
Oh, the horror! Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by romanylass:
quote:Originally posted by Mrs.M: There are so many babies whose mothers can't nurse that desperately need any donated breastmilk that I can't imagine ever using it to make ice cream. One of Aerin's NICU neighbors got breastmilk from a milk bank because his mother was on chemo and couldn't nurse him herself. That is who needs any spare breastmilk. It's not easy to get for critically ill babies, so I can't imagine giving (or selling) any to those who don't need it. This is a very precious and limited commodity and to suggest using it for commercial purposes, rather than to help sick children, is awful. I'm sure this is a publicity stunt, but it's pretty sickening.
I agree. I am a huge fan of breastmilk, and I have made homemade ice cream from it ( for my very allergic daughter's first birthday). Had to stay away from garlic for days, too, though it had nice mocha undertaste. But this is a sill publicity stunt, and if PETA actually wanted to use less moo milk, they'd ask them to add soy or coconut milk desserts to their repetoire.
OK, I am insanely curious...how do you make ice cream out of breast milk? (I've got a huge emergency freezer stash that may expire before I get to use it anyway....might experiment. )
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
quote:If you can't distinguish why humans and animals deserve different rights then the problem is with you, IMO.
And why is that, precisely? Because humans are smarter? Then what about retarded or braindead people?
Because humans have souls? Prove it.
Anything capable of feeling pain deserves, at the very least, to not suffer unnecessarily, which is something the food industry fails miserably at.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by breyerchic04: Well I remember a lot of that in kindergarten too. It's that (in my state at least) the requirements from kindergarten have gotten much more strict in the last 15 years.
Oh, yeah, that's true, for sure. They went to a mandatory full day in the district I grew up in *wince*
I don't believe in full-day kindy.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by brojack17: KQ, You could always supplement her teaching at home. This book is really meant for the bridge from PreK to K but it would proabably work for you.
We're homeschooling. Posted by Darth_Mauve (Member # 4709) on :
quote:how do you make ice cream out of breast milk?
You start with a really, really, cold pump....
Posted by RackhamsRazor (Member # 5254) on :
Just in case anyone was wondering, cows average about 80lbs of milk per day.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Wha? Seriously? That's... a lot. How much does a cow even weigh?
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
80lbs is about 10 gallons. 10 humans might be able to make a gallon each if they pumped like mad and had special diets and everything, but it wouldn't be easy.
I think human ice cream would be insanely expensive.
Posted by RackhamsRazor (Member # 5254) on :
A Holstein might weigh about 1400 lbs.
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
quote:Originally posted by breyerchic04: Well I remember a lot of that in kindergarten too. It's that (in my state at least) the requirements from kindergarten have gotten much more strict in the last 15 years.
Oh, yeah, that's true, for sure. They went to a mandatory full day in the district I grew up in *wince*
I don't believe in full-day kindy.
I keep hearing people say this is better for the kids, but it seems so wrong to me. I think we are overloading the poor kid's brains so they learn less.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Oh, but scholarette, you know if you don't enroll your child in preschool at 2 and send her to full-day kindy at 5, she will never get into the good colleges.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
I like it to be a choice. At the school I've worked with extensively they have one class of full day and two half day classes (most years the same teacher, this year different half time teachers). It is a Title One that does literacy groups and reading recovery. Reading recovery helps the bottom third of students in first grade. Literacy groups are done with all kindergarten and first grade students and the lowest third of second graders. Last year nearly all of the students in Reading Recovery and second grade Lit groups had been in half day kindergarten. After that most of them are at grade level. Obviously the half day kindergarten worked for some kids, but for others full day would have been a better choice. I don't think it really corresponds to the good colleges. It's just more time in school (my state also has one of the latest start ages in the country so we're getting older kindergarteners anyway).
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I don't mind it being a choice, though for non-high-risk or specially abled kids I don't think it's usually the best choice.
I do mind making it mandatory, especially in a population of very low-risk kids (the district I grew up in is mostly high-income with very low ESL and low-income populations; many of the parents are professionals or scientists. About a third of my class in elementary school had parents who worked at JPL.) From what I hear from parents and teachers at the school I went to, kindy since NCLB is nothing like kindy when I was going. And that makes me sad.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
quote:Originally posted by Christine:
quote:Originally posted by romanylass:
quote:Originally posted by Mrs.M: There are so many babies whose mothers can't nurse that desperately need any donated breastmilk that I can't imagine ever using it to make ice cream. One of Aerin's NICU neighbors got breastmilk from a milk bank because his mother was on chemo and couldn't nurse him herself. That is who needs any spare breastmilk. It's not easy to get for critically ill babies, so I can't imagine giving (or selling) any to those who don't need it. This is a very precious and limited commodity and to suggest using it for commercial purposes, rather than to help sick children, is awful. I'm sure this is a publicity stunt, but it's pretty sickening.
I agree. I am a huge fan of breastmilk, and I have made homemade ice cream from it ( for my very allergic daughter's first birthday). Had to stay away from garlic for days, too, though it had nice mocha undertaste. But this is a sill publicity stunt, and if PETA actually wanted to use less moo milk, they'd ask them to add soy or coconut milk desserts to their repetoire.
OK, I am insanely curious...how do you make ice cream out of breast milk? (I've got a huge emergency freezer stash that may expire before I get to use it anyway....might experiment. )
We have an ice cream maker, we just used the ice milk recipe and replaced it with breast milk. Now we use the maker for the aforementioned coconut milk desserts.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Care to share the coconut milk recipe? Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
quote:Originally posted by brojack17: KQ, You could always supplement her teaching at home. This book is really meant for the bridge from PreK to K but it would proabably work for you.
We're homeschooling.
Or just do that. Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by romanylass: We have an ice cream maker, we just used the ice milk recipe and replaced it with breast milk. Now we use the maker for the aforementioned coconut milk desserts.
Ah, well, I was afraid of that. I'm not sure I want to invest in an ice cream maker. Although I do really enjoy ice cream. Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
You can make ice cream without an ice cream maker, it just makes it easier (I don't know if romanylass is talking about some electronic machine or the hand-cranked one my family uses).
You'll probably want to google the instruction but the general gist is:
Small bag - contains milk (preferably whole milk, dunno how it works if you're using breast milk), some sugar, some flavors and something else I'm forgetting, probably cream.
Larger bag - contains ice, salt and the smaller bag.
Shake the Larger bag for a lot. A LOT!!! And ABSOLUTELY MAKE SURE THE SMALL BAG IS COMPLETELY SEALED, OR YOU WILL GET SALTY ICE CREAM WHICH TASTES LIKE CRAP.
If you have a hand-cranked ice cream machine, you use that instead of the larger bag.
Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
I've thought about making breastmilk yogurt seriously enough to look up the recipe online. It seems pretty easy. I'm exasperated with the impossibility of finding organic full fat yogurt without sugar and a whole buncha other crap in it. (For those wondering, the yogurt would be for the baby. I've tasted my own breastmilk so I'm not squicked out by it...but it's hard work to pump. Lots easier to buy MY food at the grocery store!)
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
You can also make ice cream by mixing the ingredients well, putting them in a sheet pan in the freezer, and after it is frozen, mostly, you take a hand blender to it or whip it in the mixer, then re-freeze. You have to do it a few times to get the right texture but it turns out quite edible. Our ice cream maker broke one year at the height of plum season and we really wanted plum ice cream, we just did it that way and it worked well!
You can also try Freecycle, your local thrift store, and yard sales. It shouldn't be more than $10 if you get it at a yard sale or thrift store.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
Liz, can you get Nancy's yogurt where you are?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Doesn't Trader Joe's also send organic whole milk yogurt without sugar?
I thought there was one more, too, that you can get in the regular grocery store, but I'm blanking on the name.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
Yes, I'm thinking of TJ's Greek gods yogurt.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Why did I write send? I meant have.
That's what I get for typing while watching NCIS. Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
LOL.
Posted by Wendybird (Member # 84) on :
quote:Originally posted by breyerchic04: That day really made me sure I don't want to teach kindergarten, it's all lines, snot and tying shoes.
{hijack} My 6yo was talking about being a teacher when he grows up. At first he wanted to teach 1st grade then he said "No, Wait. I want to teach 2nd grade - they don't pick their noses!" {/hijack}
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
When PETA compared chicken-raising methods to the Holocaust, I lost any remaining respect for them or interest in what they might have to say. It's pretty much on the level of monkeys throwing poo, now.
I think UN health standards recommends breast feeding until age 2?...
Also, not sure about diseases passing from mother to child (or other recipient) through nursing. On one hand, the cross-species thing sounds weird; on the other, it's a kind of protection.
Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
No to Nancy's yogurt--at least not in our regular grocery stores. And the nearest TJs is...pretty far. I'm going to try the farmer's market tomorrow...I know there's a lady who has yogurt, but she's often sold out by the time I get there.
I'm also going to try our local health food store. Or I may give up and just do YoBaby.
*** iirc, the WHO recommends breastfeeding until at least age 2. I fully intend to continue until at least then.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Stonyfield Farms does make a plain whole milk yogurt, not sure if it has sugar though.
One I did find in our local store and was able to read the ingredients on was Brown Cow. You might check for that one.
I'm sure there's another one but I can't remember the name...
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
If you really can't find it in-store, here is a site that will deliver. They have Strauss plain organic whole milk yogurt, just cultured milk. Delivery is $25 + $1.25/lb., though, and if you want Saturday delivery it's an extra $10. So that would be a last resort (although you could stock up since yogurt keeps unopened for about forever in the fridge...)
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Yogurt is ridiculously easy to make. Mine has tended to turn out a little runnier than comercial yogurt, but I think a lot of commercial brands use geletin to make it firmer.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
To go back to the original topic, I just read Ben and Jerry's response to the suggestion and loved it:
quote:Ben & Jerry's spokeswoman Liz Brenna says that while the company applauds PETA's novel approach to bring attention to this issue, the company believes a human mother's milk is best used for her child.
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
A rather gracious way of saying "Kindly stop trying to use our reputation as a sounding board for your nonsense."
Liz- right, WHO, not UN. Mind-muddle. Thanks.
Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
I got some at the farmer's market today...not certified organic, but they use organic practices. So thanks everyone, and yay!
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: To go back to the original topic, I just read Ben and Jerry's response to the suggestion and loved it:
quote:Ben & Jerry's spokeswoman Liz Brenna says that while the company applauds PETA's novel approach to bring attention to this issue, the company believes a human mother's milk is best used for her child.
Love it.
Posted by Sachiko (Member # 6139) on :
I now have a recurring mental image of women hooked up to milking machines and being fed chocolate.
If I told most of my friends about that, I'm guessing at least 30% of them would mistake the human dairy's offer of payment as the entrance fee. Especially if they're being force-fed Godiva.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sachiko: I now have a recurring mental image of women hooked up to milking machines and being fed chocolate.
If I told most of my friends about that, I'm guessing at least 30% of them would mistake the human dairy's offer of payment as the entrance fee. Especially if they're being force-fed Godiva.
I have that image too -- sometimes when I open my eyes it's true. I hate pumping, but I do love chocolate. :=)
Posted by Sachiko (Member # 6139) on :
Heck, the chocolate would BE the payment.
"And all I have to do is pump milk? Really? Pass the ganache."
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