Hi guys - I haven’t posted on here in a long time!
Before I start I just want to make it clear that I am not looking for advice on my personal relationship; I'm just looking for opinions on this sort of thing in general.
Anyway - So my partner and I went to a wedding on the weekend and had to put up with the statement that everyone loves to make whenever we go to any family gathering of this sort - "You'll be next!”. Well, Thomas and I don't WANT to get married - we are of the position that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" and don't really see any reason for to get married. (I must point out though - that this view is only for our own relationship - we are quite happy for friends and family to do whatever they like with their relationship, get married - don't get married, we are happy for them whatever they do.)
But, when I try to explain this to people they usually say two things:
a) "Yeah, you are still young - you still have a lot of things to do before you get married"
and/or
b) They think that we don't love each other enough......
Why does marriage seem to be the be-all-end-all? Why does it seem that people think that the relationship of a married couple is superior to a relationship like that of my partner and I?
Thomas' sister had been with her partner 1 and a half years before they were married, Thomas and I have been together for over 5 years - yet now that she is married, people think that her relationship is more stable and committed than ours...
It just seems a bit off to me - but it may just be because I don't like my relationship being judged that way.
What are your opinions on this sort of thing? If people get married after they have been dating 3 months - does that mean that they are more committed than the couple that are not married but have been together 10 years?
I don't like to pass judgement, in my opinion - its not really any of my business. However, from lots of experience, it seems that lots of other people do and I don't quite understand why that is...
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by stacey: ... If people get married after they have been dating 3 months - does that mean that they are more committed than the couple that are not married but have been together 10 years?
First, I suppose we need some form of metric for "commitment" Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
When you get married, you are saying publicly, "We are committed to each other; give us tax breaks!"
Until you get married, you have not made a public, formal committment. It is therefore reasonable for people to conclude that you are not as committed to each other.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
I wouldn't say reasonable, but certainly commonplace.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote:Originally posted by stacey: If people get married after they have been dating 3 months - does that mean that they are more committed than the couple that are not married but have been together 10 years?
You don't specify whether the couple who have been together 10 years have made any sort of commitment to each other or whether they've only stayed together because they haven't had any reason not to. And if they have made a commitment, have they made that commitment public?
The couple that gets married has made a public declaration of commitment. The other couple has not. They might be committed to each other, but an observer from the outside does not have access to that information. And, of course, the couple that has publically stated their commitment might not really be committed to the relationship. But it's generally considered good form to take people at their word for this sort of thing.
Posted by theresa51282 (Member # 8037) on :
I think that married people probably view it that way because it is how they felt about getting married. After my wedding, I felt closer and more committed to the relationship then I had prior to my wedding. There is something in publicly vowing to stay together and also something in how I view my commitment to my marriage that made it more permanent than the long term dating relationship it was previous to the wedding. I was committed and planned to stay with him prior to the wedding, but if things were to change and the relationship got really rough, I probably would have ended things whereas now, I would feel a deep responsibility to resolve issues if at all possible.
Posted by stacey (Member # 3661) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: When you get married, you are saying publicly, "We are committed to each other; give us tax breaks!"
In NZ, if you are living together - you are in a de facto relationship and get those tax breaks anyway and all the legal stuff is the same as if you were married....
So just the public thing huh? So its not commitment until your relationship is everyone elses business....? Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
Also, if you are married, it is a bit harder to back out of that commitment.
Posted by MattB (Member # 1116) on :
Hi, Stacey - I think Tom has put his finger on it. The way you speak of your relationship right now indicates that you understand it as something between you and Tom; a marriage, however, takes a broader view. It recognizes that your relationship has implications for the rest of your family, and for society as a whole. As the tax breaks indicate, in the US we understand a married couple to be a functional unit of society comparable to an individual.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
There are so many varying degrees of commitment among the married people I've known that this isn't a straight forward question to answer.
I've known people who married after 3 months together (or 4 years together) and remained happily married until their deaths. I've also known people who married after knowing each other 3 months and got divorced after another 3, people who married after they'd lived together for several years whose marriages ended in divorce and everything in between. So I have a hard time viewing marriage as a reliable sign of commitment.
I will say though, that I have come to view eschewing marriage as you and your partner are as a sign that there is some reticence to commit. I have close friends who had lived together for over a decade. We all considered them married even though they never made it legal. Recently they separated and it is the nature of the separation much more than anything they did while they were together which confirms that they didn't marry because they weren't fully committed to each other.
So here is my question for you. Why don't you and your partner want to get married? Clearly it would please your family and friends plus you could have a great party. If marriage really doesn't mean anything to you or about how committed you are to each other, why don't you want to do it?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I was just talking to a woman at work yesterday and she mentioned that her last partner and her had been together for 10 or more years but never got married because his last marriage ended badly and he didn't want to get married, and that was fine with her.
Marriage, to me, seems more like a legal formality than anything else, unless you're religious, in which case it has that bent to it. If people don't want to get married but still want to be together, then more power to them, I'll generally take anyone at their word unless I'm really good friends with them and I know there's something else to it.
But I could see how someone could assume that the lack of formal declaration might mean they don't care as much, because marriage is seen and referred to as the 'next step' or final step I guess, in a relationship. If you haven't taken the step, something must be wrong.
I say to each his own.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote:Originally posted by stacey:
So just the public thing huh? So its not commitment until your relationship is everyone elses business....?
Well, you asked about how "the public" views the relationship. If your view is that your level of commitment is no one else's business, then you can't really expect them to acknowledge that commitment, can you?
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
When you get married, you are saying "I love this person and I don't think I'll ever change my mind. I'm willing to bet half my stuff and a potentially expensive, frustrating, maddening and heartbreaking court trial that I will love this person until the day I die."
If you don't get married, you are saying "Eh, I could split any day, no sweat."
Even if you forgo every other benefit of marriage, this is reason enough.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Our U.S taxes would actually be worse if Steve and I were married, because neither can claim the other as a dependent due to nearly equal earnings. (I always run them that way in turbo tax to check)
Stacey, how long have you been with your partner?
Tom Davidson has also joked that Steve and I are more committed to not getting married than most people are to being married. (We've been together 8 years now) There are also studies that once you go over about 5 years (I think it was 5 years?) in a long term relationship the breakup statistics are identical between married and non-married couples.
Posted by stacey (Member # 3661) on :
quote:Originally posted by scholar: Also, if you are married, it is a bit harder to back out of that commitment.
How so? If you were in a de facto relationship - and then decided to seperate, how is that different from being in a marriage and deciding to seperate? You have to go through the same process - I would think it would be pretty much the same, not harder...
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: When you get married, you are saying publicly, "We are committed to each other; give us tax breaks!"
When do I get these tax breaks? I've been married for nearly 18 years and nearly every year we've paid more in taxes than we would if we hadn't been married. I have a marriage of inconvenience.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Divorce court can be more problematic, than an "unmarried" breakup.
Incidentally if Steve and I did get legally married, I'm not sure if I'd tell anyone, just because that whole implied "public" component of marriage bothers me so much.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote:Originally posted by BannaOj: There are also studies that once you go over about 5 years (I think it was 5 years?) in a long term relationship the breakup statistics are identical between married and non-married couples.
The studies I've seen are relative to divorce rates for couples who lived together prior to marriage. Couples who live together for over 5 years and then get married have divorce rates similar to couples who do not live together prior to marriage. Those who live together for less time have a higher divorce rate than couples who do not live together at all prior to the wedding.
Posted by stacey (Member # 3661) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: When you get married, you are saying "I love this person and I don't think I'll ever change my mind. I'm willing to bet half my stuff and a potentially expensive, frustrating, maddening and heartbreaking court trial that I will love this person until the day I die."
If you don't get married, you are saying "Eh, I could split any day, no sweat."
Even if you forgo every other benefit of marriage, this is reason enough.
Sorry - must be a different process in the US? Because the half your stuff/court thing works here even if you are not married....
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Rabbit, I guess that does put a monetary value on your commitment to the concept of "marriage".
I know that you believe in the concept of marriage for other reasons too, but it is an interesting idea as far as monetary value goes.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
(thanks dkw, I wasn't sure I had that stat right!)
AJ
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:When do I get these tax breaks? I've been married for nearly 18 years and nearly every year we've paid more in taxes than we would if we hadn't been married.
Have some kids. Of course, then taxes are no longer your biggest concern. Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
Like BannOj said- divorce procedures are a pain. Also, if you changed your name (which is in my experience more common among married folk then non), that is another big hassle.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by BannaOj: Divorce court can be more problematic, than an "unmarried" breakup.
Incidentally if Steve and I did get legally married, I'm not sure if I'd tell anyone, just because that whole implied "public" component of marriage bothers me so much.
I feel the same way. If by some fluke I GET into a committed relationship, how is it anyone's business? I do not want my family and society involved in MY relationships.
But the tax breaks would be nice. I need tax breaks.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Well Tom, you might get tax breaks, but you're also more statistically likely to be broke and depressed.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Iloved my husband before I married him, but I think there was something powerful (for me) in standing up in front of my family and friends and saying, "Here we are together, and together we shall be."
I certainly think it was a line I needed to cross, being a child of divorce and somewhat committment-phobic. We had a long engagement, and even during that I went out a few times with other people. I, personally, really needed to make that final decision publicly, to choose this one man over any possible other men. That was 15 years ago, and I haven't regretted it.
Heh. But now I introduce him to people as "My lover" just to freak people. Posted by stacey (Member # 3661) on :
So I guess the trend coming through is that people see it as a sort of final "step", that they need a line drawn in the sand to say "that side is where we weren't committed and this side is where we are committed". So can commitment built over time or is it always just a jump from not committed to committed? Is time a reliable measure for commitment or just marriage?
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I'm sure my personal aversion to marriage (aside from the financial aspects) also has to do with my family always tending to be up in everyone else's bidness where relationships are concerned.
Since my relationship isn't "legitimate" they can't acknowledge it to the same extent, therefore they stay out of my life in that area at least.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:When do I get these tax breaks? I've been married for nearly 18 years and nearly every year we've paid more in taxes than we would if we hadn't been married.
Have some kids. Of course, then taxes are no longer your biggest concern.
I guess you've missed out on the threads where I've revealed that we have been trying to have kids for over 15 years without success and the fact that this is a sore point with me.
Posted by Troubadour (Member # 83) on :
I always thought as you do stacey - in fact, I believed (still do, to a degree) that for many people the piece of paper is an excuse: 'We're married, we've got the piece of paper to prove it, we don't have to try now'.
My wife and I were together exactly five years to the day before our marriage. For so long I didn't think I'd ever marry due to all the religious connotations and my own perception that it was more honourable & romantic to make the commitment without having the 'fallback' of the marriage certificate.
Then again, my wedding was the happiest day of my life, by such a long margin it's unbelievable.
Initially I didn't want to, but was happy to for Jus' sake. Then I got excited about the whole proposal thing - it gave me a chance to do some really romantic stuff! Turned out that after the proposal and all that it entailed, we felt changed and closer for it.
Then the wedding. The whole lead-up to the wedding was so stressful that I developed a skin condition that required makeup on the day. But if you've seen the shots (they'll be on page 3 or so by now) you'll see me the happiest and proudest I've ever been and my wife just looked absolutely stunning.
And again, we feel changed and closer for it.
Having said all that, I'm not advocating it - it's right for some, wrong for others. I just wanted to share how someone could go from your position to thinking that being married is wonderful in the space of a few years.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
I'd say it is not a reliable measure for committment. All I said was that it was one I needed to take, something I set in my mind as a point of no return. Something to tell myself that things had changed, and it was no longer okay to go out with other people. *shrug* It's always been very important to me not to be an oath-breaker. I don't have any idea why. I would not have taken the oath if I wasn't committed in the first place.
But you shouldn't take a measure by just me. My relationship is wierd. Awesome, but atypical. On teh other hand I know many people who have been married a number of years who should never have done it. They're miserable.
I think people can be miserable with any choice, if it's the wrong one for them.
Posted by stihl1 (Member # 1562) on :
Just quit being stupid and arguing semantics. If you want people to treat you as a serious married couple, get married. If not, quit whining.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote:Originally posted by stacey: So I guess the trend coming through is that people see it as a sort of final "step", that they need a line drawn in the sand to say "that side is where we weren't committed and this side is where we are committed". So can commitment built over time or is it always just a jump from not committed to committed? Is time a reliable measure for commitment or just marriage?
I don't see anyone on this thread saying that. I think you are projecting.
And again I wonder why, since you're so adamant that your commitment is none of anyone else's business, that you care what other people think of it. If you want public acknowledgement, make a public commitment. If you don't care about public acknowledgement then stop asking for it. You can't have it both ways.
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
If your family wants to ask nagging, incessant questions, they'll always find something new to bother you about. If you get married, they'll want to know when you're having kids. When you have a kid, they'll want to know when each and every milestone has been reached, and are you doing enough to get him there, and have you tried that thing your cousin did?
My sig-o and I are thinking about finally tying the knot this fall. We've been together 11 years and living together for 5. We've made a commitment to each other already, we know we're not going anywhere, so the piece of paper isn't about that. I think for me it's mostly a peace of mind thing. I'll be his next of kin and won't have to worry about fighting his parents on treatment if he's in the hospital. Anything not in both our names is mine if anything happens to him.
It's like a security blanket. We don't need it to be fully committed to each other, but it'll be nice to have it.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
AR: I was with a guy I thought was committed to me. We lived together for three years. I didn't need that peice of paper either, then he left.
Probably the single brightest moment of my life was the day my husband asked me to marry him. Because I knew he wouldn't be leaving me like the last guy did.
Posted by stacey (Member # 3661) on :
quote:Originally posted by dkw: And again I wonder why, since you're so adamant that your commitment is none of anyone else's business, that you care what other people think of it. If you want public acknowledgement, make a public commitment. If you don't care about public acknowledgement then stop asking for it. You can't have it both ways.
I asked about this topic because I think it's an interesting one (not because I wanted advice about my relationship - I only used that as a background to start off discussion). I don't understand why you seem a bit angry at me for wanting to discuss it?
quote:Originally posted by stihl1: Just quit being stupid and arguing semantics. If you want people to treat you as a serious married couple, get married. If not, quit whining.
I didn't think I was whining about anything. Sorry if you thought I was. I thought I was asking questions about peoples opinions. So it was great to see your opinion on the matter as that is why I posted but the great thing about opinions is that they don't always have to be the same (Like you thinking I'm being stupid for example - I disagree )
Cheers
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
Pixiest, I appreciate your concern, and I'm sure your comment is meant as nothing but a cautionary tale in the kindest sense. However, you should probably be aware that married people always feel the need to do this to single people. And I mean always - as in every single conversation I've ever had on this subject.
On the bright side, you didn't feel the need to explain to me why your divorce wasn't your fault. That's my least favorite lecture on why we should go ahead and tie the knot. I'm not even sure why that one makes sense to the people telling the story. It's ok to get fooled? Life is unpredictable so why even try to find a toe hold of certainty? I don't get it, but I don't like it.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
I didn't get a divorce. I was living in sin and got dumped.
Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
I'm also the kind of person who doesn't feel the need to get married. My husband wanted to, though, so I was glad to do it for him since it means so much to him. (Not that being with him doesn't mean the world to me, of course - it does! But marriage itself was very important to him while I would have been just as happy to be with him unmarried if that's what he'd wanted. I really had no preference.)
However, I cannot deny a major benefit to being married: Much better tax refunds. If you're already with somebody who you adore and have a great, strong relationship with, might as well let the government reward you a little bit for it.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
Yay Libbie, it's so nice to see you around.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I guess you've missed out on the threads where I've revealed that we have been trying to have kids for over 15 years without success and the fact that this is a sore point with me.
Yes.
--------
quote:Is time a reliable measure for commitment or just marriage?
Honestly? For most people -- although not all -- I think marriage is a much better measure. Because I know lots of unmarried couples who've been together for 10 years or more mainly because they're, well, inert.
For what it's worth: I had lived with Christy for three years before our marriage, and I did not expect our relationship to be changed by the piece of paper. I was actually quite surprised when it was. It's fairly difficult to explain, but there was in fact a perceptible difference in the way we treated our relationship.
Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
I think there is something to the fact that after marriage, you are a wife or husband. Marriage changes your classification. Part of your identity is the commitment you have made, which while dating isn't true.
Posted by stacey (Member # 3661) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:Is time a reliable measure for commitment or just marriage?
Honestly? For most people -- although not all -- I think marriage is a much better measure. Because I know lots of unmarried couples who've been together for 10 years or more mainly because they're, well, inert.
Ah, so its kind of a keeping the relationship moving forward process rather than staying in the same place?
So I guess people could think that your relationship was kind of static if you weren't going through the steps (dating, moving in, marriage, babies) (thinking out loud here ) What if the relationship was moving forward - moving in together, having kids etc etc - but missed out the step of marriage. Would that still not be enough to make you think that they are committed to one another?
(Genuine questions here, I don't mean to be abrasive at all! Sorry if it comes off sounding like that.)
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote:Originally posted by stacey: I don't understand why you seem a bit angry at me for wanting to discuss it?
Nope, not angry at all. I just think the answer to "Why do people treat married couples like they have more of a commitment than unmarried couples" is pretty obvious.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Ah, so its kind of a keeping the relationship moving forward process rather than staying in the same place?
No. Rather, I'm saying that a lot of the long-term unmarried couples I know are only together because they're inert; they're lazy and afraid of dating again, so they stay together as long as they're comfortable with that arrangement. That's not really a commitment; it's convenience.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: Probably the single brightest moment of my life was the day my husband asked me to marry him. Because I knew he wouldn't be leaving me like the last guy did.
Would that my ex had that sense of commitment. Being married is no guarantee you won't be left.
Posted by stacey (Member # 3661) on :
quote:Originally posted by dkw:
quote:Originally posted by stacey: I don't understand why you seem a bit angry at me for wanting to discuss it?
Nope, not angry at all. I just think the answer to "Why do people treat married couples like they have more of a commitment than unmarried couples" is pretty obvious.
Ah I see - whereas I don't think its obvious I don't think people should be treated differently in that respect...
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I don't think people should be treated differently in that respect...
Why not? If you want the public to respect your commitment, you should make a public commitment.
Posted by stacey (Member # 3661) on :
I think that we differ in the fact that I think time is a better indicator of commitment rather than a public ceremony. I think that if a couple has been together for a certain amount of time - then they deserve to be treated as if they are in a committed relationship (whether they are married or not).
I also think your comments re long-term unmarried couples can apply to married couples as well.
Its not as if unmarried couples keep how long they have been together a secret, it's not as if they keep their relationship under wraps. Is that not a public enough commitment?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Is that not a public enough commitment?
No, it's not.
Let's turn it around: why wouldn't you get married?
Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
If someone is actually judging the integrity of your relationship based on whether or not you're married, then you probably shouldn't take their opinion too seriously.
That said, I like how Tom put it.
It seems to me like you're currently looking for a way to justify your own decision. If you don't want to get married, then don't. But be prepared to be judged for it, regardless of whether or not it's right.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
My sister lived with her boyfriend for almost 10 years. When he left, it was definitely easier for him to call it quits than it would have been if they had been married. He just took his stuff and moved out.
The reason he left? She wanted to get married, he didn't.
Posted by stacey (Member # 3661) on :
My way of thinking is that - Why should I? (the whole "why?" - "why not?" argument, it can go round and round )
Didn't really want to make this about my own relationship but - in my particular case I feel that we are there already. We are already committed; we don't need a piece of paper to make us feel as if one of us is not going to run off (as if marriage would guarantee that anyway...). I think that people we know should be able to respect that we are in a committed relationship because we are! We prove that everyday by supporting each other, living together, making big decisions together etc etc etc.
But that is still not good enough? We could remain together (happily together! not just out of convenience) until we died and it still wouldn't be accepted that we were in a committed relationship because we weren't married?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Well.
For me it's a religious issue, but I wasn't really going to bring that up.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
stacey: One note, completely separate from the issue of what other people judge is the question of why you should even care what other people think. If your personal situation is committed with your partner (and I honestly have no reason to doubt you on that) then why bother trying to convince the people that you meet? It just seems less relevant than what you and your partner judge.
Sometimes people will disagree with you, and thats ok Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by stacey: But that is still not good enough?
For whom?
As dkw said, you're trying to have it both ways.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:We could remain together (happily together! not just out of convenience) until we died and it still wouldn't be accepted that we were in a committed relationship because we weren't married?
Maybe not. So why not get married?
Posted by stacey (Member # 3661) on :
quote:Originally posted by rollainm: It seems to me like you're currently looking for a way to justify your own decision.
Sorry but like I said before, I wasn't after advice or opinions on my own personal relationship, just on the subject in general. I'm sorry that I did use my relationship as an example but it was just a way of introducing the topic... I don't need to justify anything (to me, my partner, or anyone else for that matter). It was JUST an interesting topic.
Posted by stacey (Member # 3661) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:We could remain together (happily together! not just out of convenience) until we died and it still wouldn't be accepted that we were in a committed relationship because we weren't married?
Maybe not. So why not get married?
*Removing myself from the example because its getting too much about me and not enough about the topic*
Why would that couple need to get married?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
They wouldn't need to. But if they wanted public appreciation of their commitment, marriage would make that easier.
Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
Wrong question. You - excuse me, that couple - doesn't need to do anything.
Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
I think that when you are going against a societal norm, people are likely to ask you "why?"
It is currently the norm for people to get married at a certain point in their relationship. Why is that the case? There are many reasons...but overall...it is done because that is just how the society is currently set up. If you are going to go against society, people are going to wonder why.
It seems odd to me that a couple would want to NOT get married, but still expect society to think of them as if they were married. If society thinks that marriage is a sign of commitment, it makes sense that society would see a lack of marriage as a lack of commitment. I don't think that a couple should feel the need to get married...but they should realize that if they don't go along with society's sign of commitment, that they will be treated as if they are not committed.
If you (or the hypothetical couple) don't provide a reason as to why you are choosing to not go through with society's sign of commitment, then people are going to assume that the reason is that there is a lack of commitment.
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
Religious or not, committing to something in front of people one cares about is a powerful thing. I suspect it's the same experience society tries to achieve in "swearing in" before a jury or promising to uphold laws or constitutions before taking office.
I think it's more than "my word, all these people are going to remember that I promised to do this and hold it against me if I screw up"; with the right group of people, one essentially has an entire group willing for things to work.
(Which is not to say there aren't weddings that have someone muttering "I give him and that sleazy tart six months", but that's not what one hopes for.)
In the U.S., aside from tax issues, there's also inheritance and insurance matters... My sister freely admits that the conversation that led to her marriage began with talking about medical insurance.
You can believe that you love someone so much that you want the people close to share in and recognize the joy you feel in that love, and that's great. You can also believe that you love someone so much that you don't care how the people around you regard that relationship. Arguably, that's all right, too... But I wouldn't argue that it's quite the same.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
I think Jerry Seinfeld hit the nail on the head when he said:
quote:Originally posted by Jerry Seinfeld: I'm really enjoying this marriage thing. You think about each other, you care about each other. It's wonderful. Plus, I love saying 'my wife'. Once I started saying it, I couldn't stop. 'My wife' this, 'My wife' that. It's an amazing way to begin a sentence.
Posted by SC Carver (Member # 8173) on :
Well as a chronically single person I have not really noticed any difference between long term unmarried couples and married couples. They act the same. I understand the whole public commitment thing, but how they act as couple doesn't really change. It really depends on the couple. These days marriage is easy to get out of, easier in some states than others. Some married people cheat, some leave, some don't. The same goes for unmarried people. So the only way to get any sort of gage to their commitment is to really get to know them. Even then you can’t really know.
The only thing I’ve noticed that really changes how couples act seems to be kids. Once kids inter the picture their entire lifestyle changes, and even if they choose to leave they are legally required to support the children. So to me children are much better gauge of a couples commitment to the relationship. Not saying couples without children aren’t committed, just say that ones with kids are committed on some level whether they want to or not.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by stacey: My way of thinking is that - Why should I? (the whole "why?" - "why not?" argument, it can go round and round )
You've already given us a reason why. Get married so that family and friends will give you the same recognition they give other married couples.
I will admit this is not very weighty reason, but if you are fully committed and think your relationship should be recognized as such, it is A reason. If there are not reasons to counterbalance that reason, then it is reason enough.
Tom wasn't asking a simple rhetorical question. In our society Marriage is the traditional way we publicly recognize a life time commitment between a man and a woman. So if you are avoiding getting married is naturally a sign that you are not seeking public recognition of your commitment. There could be many reasons for this.
Maybe the couple doesn't want public legal recognition of their commitment to each other. Of course if that is the case, then there shouldn't be a surprise that people don't think of them as committed.
Maybe the couple just eschews tradition. Of course whenever you choose to eschew tradition you must accept that your choice won't be viewed favorably by traditionalists.
And maybe the marriage means more to the couple than the consciously recognize. Maybe it has negative connotations. Maybe they aren't ready to fully commit. Maybe their are financial, family or cultural reasons that they don't want to get married. But there are always reasons even if they are not clearly thought through.
Is marriage necessarily a good sign that people are fully committed -- clearly not or divorce would be unheard of?
But I think if you look at any given couple, getting married is evidence that they are choosing legal and public commitment to each other.
Are you less committed to your partner than you would be if you chose to get married? Most likely yes. After all if you really thought marriage would have not change your relationship in any way, why not do it and make your mother happy?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I understand the whole public commitment thing, but how they act as couple doesn't really change.
I dispute this, actually. It's directly contrary to my experience.
Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
Words matter. A husband is different then a boyfriend, and a wife is different then a girlfriend. Every time you say "my husband," you are referrencing your commitment, in a way reminding yourself of it. It is part of you.
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
When I was a fresh RM on my scholarship to BYU I got married like most Mormons do at that stage in their life at that place.
We quickly realized it was a mistake. We knew within a year it was not meant to be. Due to tax reasons,grant reasons, and because we maintained an amicable relationship, we postponed the divorce another year.
When it came time for the divorce it was simple. She had already moved out of state and I transferred to a different school. It was 50 bucks and not messy. We contested no property and had no kids.
Later on in my life I had a girl friend who moved in with me. We wanted to stay together and lived together for a time. Eventually I left her. It wasn't meant to be.
More recently I dated a girl for a year and we got married. We now have a 3 year old and a newborn. We are committed. We are married. We are happy. It is meant to be.
With that experience I would like to make 2 points.
First I want to back up what SC Carver said. The truest form of commitment is kids. A divorce now would be messy and emotionally and financially devastating. Whether we are together or not we are bound in commitment. Thank goodness we were both ready.
Second I would like to back up what Tom said. Even when I was married to my first wife and we knew it would be over, there was a qualitative difference between that relationship and my live in girl friend who I, at that time, wanted to stay with.
It was just different. Even tho our marriage commitment was failing, we had made a public and sincere commitment. It failed, but there was a difference.
As easy and as necessary as the divorce was, it was still...not that easy. We had hoped. We had failed. We are both better off now. The best part of my experiences with my live in girlfriend were different on in internal level of commitment then the worst times in my first marriage.
Altho we said we loved each other and were committed to our relationship, missing that final public commitment did leave some things unchanged.
It is very fair to not use marriage as a test of the strength of a relationship. True friends will "get" you. However, it is unfair to expect the public to value your relationship as strong or stronger then a marriage when you never made that public commitment.
If you don't value that public recognition, good on ya. I certainly don't believe there is only one correct way to live.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
quote:Originally posted by BannaOj: Well Tom, you might get tax breaks, but you're also more statistically likely to be broke and depressed.
Anecdotally, I'd say this doesn't apply to me. Having kids gives me a purpose (supporting them). Having a purpose keeps me on track with work and other personal things. Keeping me on track allows me to excel (I always excel, but the little things tend to keep me down). Being awesome at stuff helps me feel good about myself which is the polar opposite of being depressed.
I'm still broke, though, but I'd be broke anyway if I was single because I probably wouldn't have a job.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I really dislike the words wife and husband and how they taste. I have trouble seeing myself as a future wife. It has weird connotations for me. Maybe I'd rather be a partner or something like that. I don't know.
Posted by Stray (Member # 4056) on :
I also think the only life-changing irrevocable commitment in a relationship is kids. For sure the only way I'd ever get married again is if I found someone and we decided we wanted to have children together. I just don't really see any point to it otherwise, for myself that is.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: I really dislike the words wife and husband and how they taste. I have trouble seeing myself as a future wife. It has weird connotations for me. Maybe I'd rather be a partner or something like that. I don't know.
OMG Syn.. that's so horrible and sad =(
Posted by Stray (Member # 4056) on :
Why? I don't much like those words either, 'wife' especially. I don't like thinking of myself as somebody's wife, I'd much rather be a partner.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
I like being a wife, being called a wife and being introduced as one, in my current marriage. In my previous marriage, the term wife came with a huge ball and chain and a mean ogre.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
I think marriage is, on the functional level, how you enter mainstream society and strengthen it. You do give others a piece of ownership in your relationship--a chance to be a part of it. You gain your spouse's family, and they welcome you into theirs. There is a uniting factor that happens across many lines, not just between you and your new spouse. And I think that unity is very important to society. It is the cement that holds society together.
How you get married isn't as important--whether it's a full-on bridesmaids and best man ceremony or just a short ceremony where you publicly recognize your commitment to each other. What's important is that you are bringing your families, friends, and society together through your relationship. Basically, you let them recognize your relationship along with you.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Between this thread and the "good enough" thread I'm starting to wonder if maybe we shouldn't outlaw straight marriage(*). Y'all have farked it up more than the gays ever could.
Pix
(*) I'm obviously not serious because I'm in a straight marriage and lovin' it.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I think it is one way to enter mainstream society, but it is certainly not the only way.
You don't think that all unmarried people are not actually part of society, do you?
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
No, of course not. However, there is a certain level of acceptance into the fabric of established societal organization that doesn't come until you are married. You become part of the glue of society, in other words. A stabilizing force, something the rest of society centers around. And are treated as such, more than you were before you were married. I am, of course, speaking of how it felt to me, and what I've observed of family and friends getting married.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I think it (especially Mormon society) can be that way, but it doesn't mean it's right and it doesn't reflect truth. Saying it like it is only perpetuates the error.
There are lots of self-centered married unmakers of society and lots of community- and family-centered unmarried makers of society.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
I think it's still true of society in general, although not as explicitly acknowledged in most places anymore. I am biased toward a predominately Mormon culture now, true, but I don't see it as that different than the roots of society outside the intermountain west (is there any society that's the baseline?). I grew up well away from the Wasatch range and didn't see it much differently then.
I agree that married people can be a much more destructive force in society. They are given a lot of trust, and don't always use it well. It is disruptive to many more people when a married couple in some way betrays the trust society has placed in them.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
quote: What's important is that you are bringing your families, friends, and society together through your relationship
And that is the best explanation I have as far as "why not" get married, when it comes to my relationship.
I have no desire for any of those things to be brought together through our relationship!
And we are arguably benefiting society, because we are homeowners and pay property taxes even though we have no kids.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: Between this thread and the "good enough" thread I'm starting to wonder if maybe we shouldn't outlaw straight marriage(*). Y'all have farked it up more than the gays ever could.
Pix
(*) I'm obviously not serious because I'm in a straight marriage and lovin' it.
I know you weren't being serious, but I like the idea of making all civil ceremonies civil unions, not marriages -- for straight as well as gay. We can leave the blessing of marriage to the churches to bestow.
I had a religious wedding ceremony in a synagogue, so I'm married. In addition, I have a civil marriage certificate. It wouldn't bother me in the slightest, nor would it affect the quality of my relationship with my husband if that civil marriage certificate was a civil union certificate.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:And we are arguably benefiting society, because we are homeowners and pay property taxes even though we have no kids.
Practically everybody pays property taxes,directly or indirectly, whether they own a home or not.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
From the experiences of me and my friends, I can attest that the legal recognition of a relationship does make you feel differently. It's real, then.
As for reasons, ask gays who aren't allowed to marry about the reasons. I think they have a whole list of them. One I can think of is if your partner is in an accident or incapacitated, his or her family gets to make their medical choices, not you. Another is insurance. Families pay less per person. Another is family plans on everything from gym memberships to cell service.
Be aware that in some states, if you put the person down as your spouse on insurance forms and stuff, they automatically become your legal spouse. Also, living together as husband and wife for a certain length of time makes you legally husband and wife in most states. The time varies I think.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Exactly - except I don't get to deduct part of my rent from my taxes.
<-- did taxes this morning
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Be aware that in some states, if you put the person down as your spouse on insurance forms and stuff, they automatically become your legal spouse. Also, living together as husband and wife for a certain length of time makes you legally husband and wife in most states.
Common-law marriages are only recognized in certain states -- only 12 don't have limitations that exclude most.
Posted by dabbler (Member # 6443) on :
I won't be getting married until I feel my parents are ready to accept my choice in a husband. This may take another 3-5 years. I've been with my boyfriend for three years. I don't know when I'd choose to get married if they had always been supportive. Before this? Later? That's another life I didn't live. My sister dated her husband for nine years before their marriage which was pushed onto her by her friends and my parents. She did it to appease them. The big benefit for her since her wedding a few years ago is that her husband is now publicly, to my parents, living at their house instead of secretly as before.
A friend of mine has been living with her boyfriend for several years. I asked her what her parents thought of this and she replied in an amused way that her parents are "hippies" and aren't married so they don't mind one bit. In her mini-culture, there is no expectation of marriage and the public-acceptance aspect.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Tante: I agree, that's the best compromise.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I don't get to deduct rent from my taxes. There's a long standing argument over whether the standard deduction as it currently exists favors married people or not.
Posted by Seatarsprayan (Member # 7634) on :
Well the standard deduction sure favors married people with one income. By being married, the standard deduction doubled, but the income didn't because my wife is a stay-at-home mom.
Then again, the higher standard deduction is only barely higher than what my itemized deductions would be.
Before marriage, itemizing was always higher, mostly because of charitable contributions. Now the standard deduction is higher, which is almost a demotivator to contribute to charity!
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: Between this thread and the "good enough" thread I'm starting to wonder if maybe we shouldn't outlaw straight marriage(*). Y'all have farked it up more than the gays ever could.
I know this is supposed to be a joke, but the argument here really bothers me. If something is broken, shouldn't we try to fix it instead of throwing it away?
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I just want to make it clear that I am not looking for advice on my personal relationship; I'm just looking for opinions on this sort of thing in general.![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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