-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on September 12, 2007 07:41 AM:
Last time I asked this sounded like a really difficult thing to do... does anyone know if I can get my account here deleted without having to manually remove all my posts?
Not trying to be dramatic, just feeling like my time here is done, and figured it'd be easier to make a clean break of it if I wasn't tempted to post.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on September 12, 2007 07:48 AM:
I don't know. Unless you want to contact the mod/janitor and ask them personally as an admin to delete you.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by Lissande (Member # 350) on September 12, 2007 07:50 AM:
You could always give your password to someone and have them change it and not tell you the new one.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on September 12, 2007 07:53 AM:
When I asked Papa Moose about it a few years ago, I think he said he couldn't do the post-deleting thing any easier than I could. I don't want to cause a lot of extra work for him. I'm not even sure how to access all my posts, though, the search seems to cut off after 50 or so. Maybe I have to search for 50, delete 50, then search again?
It'd be great if there was a way to just click "remove user" and have all record of me here disappear.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on September 12, 2007 08:02 AM:
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It'd be great if there was a way to just click "remove user" and have all record of me here disappear. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For a given value of "great," maybe.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on September 12, 2007 08:04 AM:
Even if you're going to leave, there's no reason to delete all your posts. That would make all the conversations you took part in unreadable. Have someone change your password, delete hatrack from your bookmarks, and clear your browser history. If you're not trying to be dramatic, just leave in a way that won't piss a bunch of people off. Deleting all your posts is acting like a jerk on the way out.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on September 12, 2007 08:07 AM:
Oh, the person who changes your password should change the email address in the profile, too, so you can't just request the password be reset.
Not that I want you to leave. I've always enjoyed your posts, and especially reading about the progress of your career. But if it's what you want to do, that's your call.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on September 12, 2007 08:13 AM:
Yeah - are you actually wanting to delete all your POSTS? Or just remove/disable your user account so you can't use it again? I don't understand the need to delete posts. You said you just don't want to be tempted to post. So just make it so you can't log in.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on September 12, 2007 08:52 AM:
True.... I just feel uncomfortable about the idea of losing control over all my old posts, which would happen if my account was disabled but the posts not removed. What if, 5 years from now, my opinions about people who spend 16 hours a day playing video games have changed, and I want what I've written now to be edited or removed? I understand why the community wouldn't necessarily want that to happen, but isn't it important that individuals here be free to both post and remove their posts at will?
I'm having trouble thinking of a real-world analogy. I mean, very few of your words or actions are enforceably permanent in the real world... marriage has divorce, crimes have statutes of limitations, bankruptcy only affects you for 7 years.... do we want opinions written on the internet to be iron-clad permanent, no recourse for changing your mind down the road?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on September 12, 2007 08:57 AM:
Basically, I think it should be about as easy for one to decide that they no longer want to be a part of this community as is the reverse, and have the option to remove their own account and all record of their presence here whenever they like. I know that's not necessarily a good thing for the community, but I think it's an important right for the individual, much like having the option to divorce is a bad thing for society but a good thing for the individual members who need it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by msquared (Member # 4484) on September 12, 2007 08:59 AM:
Grow up.
Marriage has divorce, but the record of your marriage is still out there. People say things on the record all the time. You migh be surprised.
So you said something when you were younger? Big deal. Tell the person that you changed your mind since then.
msquared
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on September 12, 2007 08:59 AM:
5 years from now, there is a possibility that the threads will not even be around because either Hatrack will have pruned them to save space or it may have moved to new software.
5 years from now, I really doubt anyone will really care about your opinions on video games (no offence) and then try to look them up to enforce(?) them on your future self.
Heck, I don't think even Google indexes these pages and the Internet Archive probably does not archive UBB, but I could be wrong...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on September 12, 2007 09:00 AM:
Then you have nothing to worry about. The forum prunes old threads, and you can be sure most of your posts will be gone in 5 years.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on September 12, 2007 09:00 AM:
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- but isn't it important that individuals here be free to both post and remove their posts at will? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think this idea has been heavily debated before on here. I'm still not sure how I feel about it.
There are LOTS of things in my past I wish I could go back and "undo" and "unsay" but that is not an option in most of those arenas.
(p.s. - and maybe it is GOOD that I can't undo things - that I am held accountable to my mistakes of the past. That way, it makes me more cautious about how I perceive things, and what I say, going forward)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on September 12, 2007 09:02 AM:
And if I don't want to entrust my wishes to the vagaries of self-pruning forum software?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on September 12, 2007 09:03 AM:
You are talking like you don't want any personal accountability for anything you may have said at any given point in time.
If you don't want accountability for your opinions, maybe they shouldn't have been shared in the first place.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on September 12, 2007 09:06 AM:
And, actually, Google does cache this forum, so things written here are quite permanent.... unless they're removed, in which case a request can be submitted to Google for that particular cache to be cleared.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on September 12, 2007 09:08 AM:
I think the point that hatrack prunes threads is very important here. Yes, they might still be accessible through something like the Wayback machine, but they will be whether you delete them or not. If you just leave them alone, in a couple of years they won't be available on the actual forums.
And you can get divorced, but if your spouse wants to keep your wedding photos and show them to everyone, you can't stop him. Participation here is collaborative. If you don't want to give up the ability to change something later, just delete it from your bookmarks and clear your cache and don't actually do the password change. And then don't worry about it. If you manage to stop visiting for a month, you'll probably never come back, and if you suddenly realize you absolutely have to change your opinion on something, you'll be able to.
If you do, please clearly mark your edit.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on September 12, 2007 09:10 AM:
If you don't want accountability for your opinions, maybe they shouldn't have been shared in the first place. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I completely agree. I've grown a lot since I started posting here, and I do regret a lot of things that I've written in the past. It's one of the reasons I'd like to clear this slate and start over fresh. I honestly doubt that the community would be any worse off without the handful of opinions I've posted here, but I feel like I'd be much better off removing this forum from my life. And, more importantly, I think that the individual should be the one who gets to make that decision, justified or not.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on September 12, 2007 09:13 AM:
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you don't want to give up the ability to change something later, just delete it from your bookmarks and clear your cache and don't actually do the password change. And then don't worry about it. If you manage to stop visiting for a month, you'll probably never come back, and if you suddenly realize you absolutely have to change your opinion on something, you'll be able to. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've done this before, and I always end up coming back. Everyone does.
If my account is still here and my posts are still here, then I'm still here. And I don't want to be here anymore. If there were a way for me to erase my account, I would have already left.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on September 12, 2007 09:13 AM:
Actually you're right, this forum is indexed by Google. I didn't check the cache since pretty much by definition, when the forum thread is pruned the cache will be deleted too.
The Internet Archive is a bit tricker, it seems like the index pages are stored but not most of the threads.
Of course, we're getting a little hung up on the last sentence of my post, the sentences prior to that was my focus
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on September 12, 2007 09:13 AM:
Why delete beyond your profile? It's not as if a search could link Zeugma to your real identity.
Anyway, gonna miss ya. Have a really really really GOOD life.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on September 12, 2007 09:14 AM:
I think of Hatrack more as writing an open letter. Once it's been mailed you can't always get it back.
And other than that, I agree completely with msquared.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on September 12, 2007 09:20 AM:
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And, more importantly, I think that the individual should be the one who gets to make that decision, justified or not. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You do get to make that decision. Just go back and manually delete every single one of your 1673 posts you've made.
You don't want the option of deleting posts, you want the option of doing it with ease.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on September 12, 2007 09:23 AM:
oh - come'on! We've got to keep Zeugma engaged in this debate indefinitely so they can never, ever leave!
You know, this place IS kinda like the Hotel California.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on September 12, 2007 09:25 AM:
Wow, quite the warm goodbye.
Adieu, Zeugma!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on September 12, 2007 09:29 AM:
Zeugma, it's too late, you already were here. Just like I was in alt.astrology 13 years ago with some now head-smacking comments under my real name. I even had the chance to have them deleted out of Google Groups when Deja News got bought out, but I left them there. I bet they're more embarrassing than anything you've posted here (I can't think of anything that I would consider embarrassing from anything you've posted).
Do what you need to not come back, and move on. I don't begrudge you that. But take it as a reflection of who you were at the time, and accept that, while understanding you aren't like that any more.
-Bok
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on September 12, 2007 09:53 AM:
Goodbye fellow Cornell alum!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on September 12, 2007 10:26 AM:
Shouldn't this topic have "Mayfly" in it? Sort of by definition?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on September 12, 2007 10:42 AM:
There's no way to scrub the memories of your throwdowns with Leto from the universe's memory.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on September 12, 2007 10:47 AM:
By "universe", I, of course, am referring to myself.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on September 12, 2007 11:01 AM:
I don't think you can reasonably expect to be able to get rid of anything you put on the internet.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on September 12, 2007 11:23 AM:
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Zeugma:
If you don't want accountability for your opinions, maybe they shouldn't have been shared in the first place. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I completely agree. I've grown a lot since I started posting here, and I do regret a lot of things that I've written in the past. It's one of the reasons I'd like to clear this slate and start over fresh. I honestly doubt that the community would be any worse off without the handful of opinions I've posted here, but I feel like I'd be much better off removing this forum from my life. And, more importantly, I think that the individual should be the one who gets to make that decision, justified or not. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You don't want to leave; you want never to have been here. But you don't get that choice. Our pasts are indelible. You can disassociate ourselves from them, but they're always there. Pretending otherwise is immature. Sometimes understandable, but immature nonetheless.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on September 12, 2007 11:35 AM:
Isn't it wonderful that we, as human beings in this amazing modern world, have an almost infinite ability to re-invent ourselves? If I don't like my job, I can quit it and start another. If I don't like my education, I can dump it and get a new one. Don't like how I act around people? I can always move to a new town and give it another shot with new people.
If I'd been forced to remain the same person I was 5 years ago forever, I think it might have killed me. I make a huge effort every day to get closer to being the person I want to be, and part of that process means leaving the old me further and further behind. Which makes the idea of the old me being permanently enshrined on the internet rather frightening.
About 200 posts down, 1400 to go!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on September 12, 2007 11:42 AM:
But people will ask what you did before, and can likely find out half a dozen ways. Your new school will generally want to know about your old school.
Your "old me" never disappears, just hides itself in other places and other people.
Then, of course, there's the fact that without you being your "old me" at some point, you likely wouldn't be the "current me".
And in removing your old me, you make dozens of people look nonsensical if anyone wants to go back and read old threads that used to have you in them... And even then, so long as people quoted you in their posts, you'll never be really deleted.
So why go through all that work?
-Bok
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on September 12, 2007 11:43 AM:
You could take the easier and more pleasant path of just never opening Blayne threads.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on September 12, 2007 11:52 AM:
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Zeugma: Isn't it wonderful that we, as human beings in this amazing modern world, have an almost infinite ability to re-invent ourselves? If I don't like my job, I can quit it and start another. If I don't like my education, I can dump it and get a new one. Don't like how I act around people? I can always move to a new town and give it another shot with new people. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you quit your job and start another, it doesn't change the fact that you worked that job.
What you're doing now is cowardly and infantile. If you're a different person than you were, you should take pride in having changed, rather than vandalize a site you obviously don't care about.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on September 12, 2007 12:05 PM:
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Isn't it wonderful that we, as human beings in this amazing modern world, have an almost infinite ability to re-invent ourselves? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's rarely true. You can change your circumstances, but, for the most part, wherever you go, there you are.
Running from one situation doesn't generally change who you are. It may change the aspects of yourself that are most brought out in the new situation, but real personal change comes from confronting your past self, not running from it.
This pop-psych concept of re-inventing yourself is about as valid and helpful as most other pop-psych.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
What's the point of this?
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
If you really wanted to be petty you could go and copy over as many of her old posts as you could find, too.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
It's an object lesson. What I saw on this thread was a lot of people patiently explaining to Zeugma why doing a certain thing wasn't very nice, and Zeugma grinning back and saying, "I don't care; I'm going to do it any way." I'm hoping that maybe seeing how it feels to have ones wishes disregarded by others might inspire some empathy on Zeugma's part.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
Sure, because petty bullying will definitely inspire empathy instead of justified scorn.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by ElJay: If you really wanted to be petty you could go and copy over as many of her old posts as you could find, too.
Potato, potahto. I think this might also serve as a lasting memory, in case she does decide to come back some day. There really ought to be a listing of people whose threads it's likely to be a waste of time posting in. Serial thread deleters, people like Zeugma, et cetera.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote: I'm hoping that maybe seeing how it feels to have ones wishes disregarded by others might inspire some empathy on Zeugma's part.
Acting like a jerk is not a good way to get others to stop acting like jerks.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
Let go of the vicious malice, Lisa.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Acting like a jerk is not a good way to get others to stop acting like jerks.
Not even if you act like a bigger jerk?
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
It burns.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Idle question: I've been to other UBB-based boards that allow post editing and deleting. However, none of them seem to have as many conflicts about post/thread deleting as on Hatrack, possibly because while the feature is there not many people use it.
Why is this issue so prevalent here?
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
Because are convinced, convinced! that someone important somewhere is going to read the archives and realize that what we said as Harmonic57 on the subject of Gollum's innocence in LOTR should disqualify us from entering the monastery.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Wez senzitif.
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
I think Hatrack is 'more real' than other forums...people use their real names, know at least some members in real life, etc.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I don't care.
Man, it feels nice.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Javert Hugo: Let go of the vicious malice, Lisa.
Whatever. You think I'm enraged, but I'm just mildly irked, and mildly disgusted. There's no malice here; I just dislike Zeugma's attitude, and wanted to make a point. If Papa J wants to kill this, he can do it, but I don't see the problem.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
I don't think you're engraged. I don't know what you are, and I don't care.
The thread is malicious.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Zeugma:
If you go over to the "How to delete an account" thread and address the issues of the people who didn't want you running through Hatrack with scissors -- and I mean address them seriously and respectfully and with an open mind -- I will consider deleting this thread.
No guarantees.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:There's no malice here
You are purposely and admittedly doing something precisely because you know it will bother someone.
quote:I don't see the problem
That's the problem.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:You are purposely and admittedly doing something precisely because you know it will bother someone.
She's like a member of ADAPT!
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
Does any good really come out of this thread? It just spreads hate and petty quarrels.
It is very un-Hatrack.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:If you go over to the "How to delete an account" thread and address the issues of the people who didn't want you running through Hatrack with scissors -- and I mean address them seriously and respectfully and with an open mind -- I will consider deleting this thread.
If you give into her demands, you're just encouraging further acts of terrorism.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I'm considering eating a baby right now. I wouldn't normally be a waffler on this particular issue-- but I've recently noticed that my pants are more snug than I'm comfortable with.
So I may eat a kitten instead.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:There's no malice here
You are purposely and admittedly doing something precisely because you know it will bother someone.
Someone who is doing something, fully aware, that it's bothering other people, and who refuses to so much as address those concerns, let alone listen to them. You make it sound like I decided, in a vacuum, "Gee, I think I'll do something to bother someone. Hey, why not Zeugma?" There's a context that you're ignoring.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
quote:Originally posted by The White Whale: It is very un-Hatrack.
Actually, as seen by recent attitudes and events, it is entirely a Hatrack thing to do.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Someone who is doing something, fully aware, that it's bothering other people, and who refuses to so much as address those concerns, let alone listen to them.
I think my ironymeter just broke.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
Cheap.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
Are you kidding? You're a poster child for what you're complaining about. A thousand times more than your erstwhile targets.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Lisa how can it be right to in effect force the very outcome a person wishes to avoid either rightfully or wrongfully?
Would the correct response to suicide attempts be to induce a coma in the patient and keep them on life support for as long as our machines can keep them living?
I mean give me a break, if Zeugma want's to leave hatrack, a simple goodbye suffices. If she wants to remove her entire record of posting from the forum then let her try to delete all her own posts or simply give up.
It's not your job to be a pseudo forum moderator on hatrack.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Javert Hugo: Are you kidding? You're a poster child for what you're complaining about. A thousand times more than your erstwhile targets.
Is it unreasonable to stick to the issues rather then point out each other's personal flaws? I am 100% sure that cries of hypocracy will not suddenly bring Lisa to a sense of regret culminating in a favorable outcome.
This thread should be deleted pending approaval of all those who posted, Lisa's character need not go through the ringer in the process.
I'd be very disappointed that in the wake of one hatracker leaving another is hounded out with her.
Posted by Architraz Warden (Member # 4285) on :
Wow, this thread is chock full of win.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:if Zeugma want's to leave hatrack, a simple goodbye suffices.
Or not even that.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
In this very thread Lisa has shown herself to fail by her own standards.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
There's one standard of hers Lisa is following: even though people are saying some pretty nasty things about her, she hasn't deleted other people's posts.
I'm not particularly fond of this thread or its underlying rationale, but the ability to copy threads and post them in new threads exists. I suppose we have to trust that people will use it responsibly.
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
quote:There's no malice here; I just dislike Zeugma's attitude, and wanted to make a point.
Ok, Zeugma's seen this thread so your point has been made. If that was your primary objective, then you can now remove the contents of your original post. If not, I don't see how you can honestly say that there is no malice here.
Added: Additionally, has Zeugma even started any threads in the past? Is the concern of thread deletion even an issue here?
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: I'm considering eating a baby right now. I wouldn't normally be a waffler on this particular issue-- but I've recently noticed that my pants are more snug than I'm comfortable with.
So I may eat a kitten instead.
A simple solution. Baby rabbits. Lean, succulent baby rabbits.
-Bok
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: I'm considering eating a baby right now. I wouldn't normally be a waffler on this particular issue-- but I've recently noticed that my pants are more snug than I'm comfortable with.
So I may eat a kitten instead.
Can't...resist...
The Tick: Eating kittens is just plain... plain wrong! And noone should do it, ever!
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
quote:Originally posted by Javert Hugo: In this very thread Lisa has shown herself to fail by her own standards.
Quick! Copy the thread and paste it into a new one before she deletes it!
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
I'd suggest that, if you don't want people to post things like this, that you may want to refrain from giving them exactly what they want in response to it.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
*laugh*
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
quote:Originally posted by TheTick: Eating kittens is just plain... plain wrong! And noone should do it, ever!
I read this as:
quote:Originally posted by TheTick: Eating kittens plain is just wrong... wrong! And noone should do it, ever!
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:I'd suggest that, if you don't want people to post things like this, that you may want to refrain from giving them exactly what they want in response to it.
Isn't that the suggestion that started all this?
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
Seriously, you gotta use catsup.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bokonon:
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: I'm considering eating a baby right now. I wouldn't normally be a waffler on this particular issue-- but I've recently noticed that my pants are more snug than I'm comfortable with.
So I may eat a kitten instead.
A simple solution. Baby rabbits. Lean, succulent baby rabbits.
There's just one problem with both the kitty and the bunny idea: hairballs.
Go with the baby. Anyway, kittens and bunnies aren't kosher.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
And if it's calories you're worried about, just have a preemie!
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Primal Curve:
quote:Originally posted by Javert Hugo: In this very thread Lisa has shown herself to fail by her own standards.
Quick! Copy the thread and paste it into a new one before she deletes it!
<shrug> Feel free. I wouldn't do such a thing without the consent of the people in the thread. The only time I can recall having deleted a thread was when I forgetfully posted a duplicate thread. The very first response pointed out that it was a dupe, and gave the link. When I saw that it was a duplicate, I immediately deleted the thread before anyone could post anything of substance.
I know there are a lot of one-liners here, but a lot of people give a lot of thought to many posts, and I don't think it's nice to delete those. It's a chance we all take, but that doesn't mean it's okay.
Zeugma is threatening to delete not only her own posts, but the posts of everyone who has ever posted in a thread she started. That's really inappropriate. As is her refusal to speak to that issue.
If certain immature types want to hold grudges against me for things I've posted that they didn't like, fine. That says worlds more about them than it does about me. But it has nothing to do with the situation at hand.
Every time someone has deleted threads that people have spent considerable time posting in, I've wished there were some way to go back in time and preserve the thread in question before the originator had a chance to delete it. In this case, I actually had that opportunity, because it was obvious that Zeugma was going to delete a thread.
I didn't consider it worth my time to track down all the threads she may have started. If there had been an easy way to do so, I would have copied those over as well.
If she wants to delete her own posts, she should be allowed to do that, even if it's not particularly nice. But she should not be allowed to delete what other people have posted. And in this one small case, I've made sure that she can't.
The hysteria about this is really kind of funny. It explains an awful lot about why some of you find my posts offensive. We're clearly coming from radically different world views. Those of you who aren't riding high on your hypocrisy horses (and for the record, it can hardly be hypocrisy when I dispute the parallel) seem to be irked that I'm doing something to thwart someone else. But I think it's okay for me to do that to someone who is doing that herself. For all I know, she may already have deleted posts of mine today. And whether or not she has, in fact, done so doesn't really matter. What matters is that she's acting in an irresponsible way with regards to the time and efforts of others. Something, btw, that I am not doing. I'm preserving things; not destroying them.
I honestly do not understand the objections to this thread. Not even a little bit. I can maybe understand those of you who just don't like me and see this as a chance to attack me. But a lot of you would never behave that way, which makes your reaction here a huge puzzlement to me.
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
quote:Originally posted by camus: Additionally, has Zeugma even started any threads in the past? Is the concern of thread deletion even an issue here?
Yep.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Lisa, this thread and your comments are really hurting me. This is the last thing I wanted. I can't tell you how upset I am that this is such a freaking difficult process, I would be infinitely happier if I could just click a button and be gone without a fuss. Unfortunately it looks like it's going to take days for me to clear this account.
I feel like I've already done a pretty good job of explaining what my motivations are in the other thread. And when it comes to the wishes of some of the members here to never see a thread deleted.... well, why aren't you guys out rallying against the pruning process? Several of you made it clear that my posts would dissappear anyhow in a few years, all I'm doing is hastening the process so I can finally be done with this place. I don't want any part of me to remain here, I want to be gone NOW.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Because pruning is a somewhat natural process, that reflects disinterest in the topic. However, there may be reasons to bump them.
And you'll never be gone, because the people here will remember you. And plenty of us want to remember you, even if you don't want to remember us.
-Bok
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Zeugma, what on earth happened that makes you so anxious to erase any trace of being here?
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: I honestly do not understand the objections to this thread. Not even a little bit.
Do you actually mean "do not understand" here or rather that you "do not agree with" the objections?
For example, starting from the beginning, the first clearly stated objection is mph's, expressing doubts about the efficacy of your chosen method. What part of that objection did you not understand? Or rather, do you just disagree with it?
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
Zeugma, for the threads that you started, would you consider just editing out all the contents of the initial post instead of deleting the entire thread?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:I honestly do not understand the objections to this thread. Not even a little bit.
I honestly don't believe you.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
quote:Originally posted by Zeugma: And when it comes to the wishes of some of the members here to never see a thread deleted.... well, why aren't you guys out rallying against the pruning process?
This certainly doesn't reflect my position, which is that only mods, admins, or automated pruning should be able to delete threads or edit/delete posts after the expiry of a 10-minute labelled edit window.
One possible way to resolve your initial problem without removing your posts would have been to ask that your account be banned.
[Edited to remove a stray comma.]
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
quote:Zeugma, what on earth happened that makes you so anxious to erase any trace of being here?
I've been wanting to do this for years. This morning I simply wanted to leave, but seeing how this warm, loving community has responded to my decision makes me want to scream from the rooftops that I'm no longer involved with this place.
I'll try to edit out the half dozen thread-starting posts I've made instead of deleting them from here on out, but to be honest it's taking a lot of energy just to delete them, and I'm quickly losing my ability to about what the community here thinks. Lisa's right, I'm just an immature snot after all.
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
quote:Lisa's right, I'm just an immature snot after all.
Weeeeelllll...
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Well...lots of people just "go away" for a while. I did for several years. And nothing says that you have to come back if you don't want to coma back.
It may do you a world of good to stop posting here for a while (though I believe you would be missed), but, as gratifyingly spectacular as the flames might be, burning bridges usually ends up being something to regret.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
For what it's worth, here are the concerns:
1) When you remove your posts from the forum, you're not just leaving. You're killing yourself. I will mourn you as if you had died, and will miss your contributions.
2) There are people who have posted in your threads and in replies to you who do not want their contributions deleted or rendered meaningless, and deleting your words without taking their feelings into account is, IMO, fairly insensitive.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Zeugma, I was curious about how many threads you'd started, so I checked. (Thank you for at least making the attempt to not delete your thread starting posts, by the way.) It's over 50, and one of them is actually about someone else deleting a thread, because you were unhappy your post was deleted. I found that somewhat amusing, in a sad way.
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
I know it probably won't mean anything to you, but it makes me sad that this particular turn of events is the note you want to go out on. I'd rather not have this kerfuffle / massive post deletion be my last memories of you. But, well, I guess that's not really my choice.
I'll miss ya, poly/alr/zeugma.
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
Besides, it sure seems like a lot of work for nothing. I'm sure there are plenty of places where you've been quoted, so your words are preserved regardless of what you do. And there have probably been people going off and saving threads you started since you announced this. So it all seems kind of pointless to me.
The heads up was nice, though. I was able to go save a thread that I had participated in and didn't want to lose. I would have been sad if I'd only discovered that it was gone when I'd tried to search for it.
--Mel
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus:
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: I honestly do not understand the objections to this thread. Not even a little bit.
Do you actually mean "do not understand" here or rather that you "do not agree with" the objections?
For example, starting from the beginning, the first clearly stated objection is mph's, expressing doubts about the efficacy of your chosen method. What part of that objection did you not understand? Or rather, do you just disagree with it?
Fair enough. That's a great example. No, I honestly do not understand how disagreeing about the efficacy of my actions is grounds for objecting to them. Maybe you can explain that to me. That's like me objecting to someone's post because I would have phrased it differently.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:I honestly do not understand the objections to this thread. Not even a little bit.
I honestly don't believe you.
I'd say that I'm honestly concerned about whether you believe me or not, but honestly? I'm not.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
As others have said, it isn't the leaving, it's the manner in which you want to leave that has people ruffled.
You could have left with a simple good-bye thread, or nothing at all, and I doubt anyone would have faulted you. Been a little said, perhaps.
-Bok
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:That's like me objecting to someone's post because I would have phrased it differently.
I think most people who are upset that this thread exists are objecting to it precisely because they would have phrased it differently.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by ElJay: Zeugma, I was curious about how many threads you'd started, so I checked. (Thank you for at least making the attempt to not delete your thread starting posts, by the way.) It's over 50, and one of them is actually about someone else deleting a thread, because you were unhappy your post was deleted. I found that somewhat amusing, in a sad way.
And for those who've been abusing the word "hypocrisy", that's a correct example of it.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:That's like me objecting to someone's post because I would have phrased it differently.
I think most people who are upset that this thread exists are objecting to it precisely because they would have phrased it differently.
How is that possible? I mean, I didn't "phrase" anything at all at first. I copied it without comment, no? Anything I've said since then has been... well, it's been since then.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
The thread was from almost two years ago. People are allowed to change their minds without being hypocrits.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
I've tried "going away". I always get drawn back. I've always thought that completely removing myself from the forum would fix that, and I'm ready to do it.
It does bother me that some of you would be upset by the disappearance of the threads I've started, especially those of you who aren't trying to jab a sharp stick in my eye. However, I also know that, if I'd been able to just click a button and make them all vanish, none of you would ever have noticed. The relative value of those few threads is insignificant in the sea of content here.
And yes, it's very fitting that one of the threads I started was about thread deletion. Exactly what I mean when I say I don't want the old me hanging around here anymore. Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:No, I honestly do not understand how disagreeing about the efficacy of my actions is grounds for objecting to them.
The complaint is that you're acting like a jerk. That you're acting like a jerk in order to stop somebody else from acting like a jerk doesn't ameliorate it.
When I said "Acting like a jerk is not a good way to get others to stop acting like jerks.", I didn't merely mean good as in effective. I also meant good as in right, proper, and good.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Zeugma, are you going to erase posts from your previous screen name also?
I for one will miss you either way. But I think you have my "real" email address, if you'd like to keep in touch.
AJ
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Zeugma: However, I also know that, if I'd been able to just click a button and make them all vanish, none of you would ever have noticed.
Not true. Wouldn't have noticed today, sure. Probably not even this week. But I have looked up old threads of yours (mostly the animation ones) before, and I probably would have again.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Zeugma: I've tried "going away". I always get drawn back. I've always thought that completely removing myself from the forum would fix that, and I'm ready to do it.
You've been offered several solutions to that objection that don't involve you attempting to erase your very existence. Most of them don't even require any self-discipline on your part.
To be honest, I don't believe that you really just want to 'go away'. I think it's more that you want to make a dramatic exit. It's also been my observation that people who mainly want to make a dramatic exit aren't the ones who really want to go away -- they want people to talk them into staying.
The people who really want to go away just go.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
But Porter, you always think I'm a jerk. I could post my shopping list, and you'd find a way to hit me for it. It kind of devalues the criticism a bit, don't you think?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
That is gross misrepresentation of me and my behavior towards you.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
quote:Zeugma, are you going to erase posts from your previous screen name also?
I for one will miss you either way. But I think you have my "real" email address, if you'd like to keep in touch.
This post exhibits: 1) How Banna is a kinder, sweeter, warmer person than I am. 2) Why she's such a treasure of a friend. Don't lose the e-mail, Zeugma.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Okay, look, I'm sorry, but I'm done discussing this, I've got way too much on my plate right now. I'm very sorry that I've caused such a fuss.
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
No you're not. You obviously love the attention.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Well crap, it looks like I can't delete this many posts without bringing Hatrack down while I do it. I don't want to do that to you guys.
This freaking sucks. I wish I'd never come here in the first place.
But you get your wish, Lisa, I won't be able to remove much more. At least the last 12 hours have cemented my desire to leave. Bye.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Lisa, you ARE being a jerk here.
-pH
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
quote:Originally posted by Zeugma: Bye.
See you soon! Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
Gonna miss hearing your animation stories.
Take care
--j_k
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Zeugma, not that I am anywhere near as nice as BannaOj, but I would like to hear from you. My email is the same as my username at hotmail.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
I hate it when people want to leave and don't just leave. Why the drama?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Zeugma: Well crap, it looks like I can't delete this many posts without bringing Hatrack down while I do it. I don't want to do that to you guys.
Appreciated.
It does rather make obvious the point that I and others were trying to make: Your posts are woven into the fabric of this place, and ripping them out leaves holes and gaps that matter and are noticed.
It's also seriously messing with the markers. Your recent post history now contains several thread that aren't yours -- presumably because the multiple deletions have affected the database. Hopefully this won't cause any further problems.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: It's also seriously messing with the markers. Your recent post history now contains several thread that aren't yours -- presumably because the multiple deletions have affected the database. Hopefully this won't cause any further problems.
So besides the drama, Zeguma's exit also has the added bonus of bug testing. Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
And if the database is corrupted, they'll have to restore from backup and all the posts Zeugma did delete will be back! Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bokonon:
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: I'm considering eating a baby right now. I wouldn't normally be a waffler on this particular issue-- but I've recently noticed that my pants are more snug than I'm comfortable with.
So I may eat a kitten instead.
A simple solution. Baby rabbits. Lean, succulent baby rabbits.
-Bok
Simple? Perhaps. Solution? Nooooo!!!
Posted by SoaPiNuReYe (Member # 9144) on :
I honestly didn't even know who Zuegma was until about a month ago, and now she's leaving...
Oh well...
Stay Chill Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
I'll miss discussing animation news with you, Zeugma.
Best of luck with whatever life has in store for you.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Vi sitter här i venten och spelar lite DotA. (I hear you man.) Vi sitter här i venten och spelar lite DotA. (I feel you man.)
Vi sitter här i venten och spelar lite DotA å pushar på å smeker, med motståndet vi leker. Vi sitter här i venten och spelar lite DotA å springer runt å creepar, och motståndet vi sleepar.
(DotA!)
(Don't worry, be happy.)
[ September 12, 2007, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: Blayne Bradley ]
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Blayne, you're violating the no more than 3 lines of copywritten material rule. Please edit.
Posted by Threads (Member # 10863) on :
Is it really illegal to post lyrics?
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
It's a grey area, but we've been asked by the mods to keep it to 2 (?) lines.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Considering how the lyrics of this song including the song itself is so easily availiable on Youtube and other sites that I really dont see the point of editing it.
Posted by Architraz Warden (Member # 4285) on :
Illegal yes. Does it matter? Who knows. Do we only post two lines at a time here? Yes.
The general consensus is that we don't want to risk getting OSC in trouble in case the RIAA gets really militant about posting lyrics. So, we stick to the strictest interpretation of the copyright law and limit it to two lines here (under penalty of... um, being voted off the island and perhaps being edited by Papa in case of extreme stubborness on your part).
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: It's a grey area
Only if "gray area" means "no one is currently doing much to stop it."
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Considering how the lyrics of this song including the song itself is so easily availiable on Youtube and other sites that I really dont see the point of editing it.
The point is that the extremely gracious owners of the site have asked us not post more than three lines of lyrics. Which you post still violates. They don't ask much of us, is remembering this one really that hard?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
That seems like pretty good definition of grey area to me.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
It's illegal. That's not gray at all.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
It's not clear at all that it's illegal to post the copyrighted lyrics to a song - it very much depends on the context, including many factors. Fair use is pretty much the textbook example of "gray area." (Edit: To be clear, it is very often illegal to post copyrighted lyrics.)
What is clear is that our hosts have asked that we avoid the gray by following a bright-line rule of 3 lines.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
The exact number of lines that you can quote from a song and still be within fair use and not be infringing on copyright is definitely a grey area.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Right. The proportion of a copyrighted work copied is 1 of 4 factors used to evaluate fair use. Sometimes copying the entire work is fair use. Sometimes less than one tenth of a percent is not fair use.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: Sometimes copying the entire work is fair use.
Hmm. Example, please?
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Haikus for academic commentary.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Ok. A haiku or other very short work, especially for academic use, I buy. I am not convinced that the full lyrics (or a large fraction thereof) of a song, for non-academic use, is in the same ballpark.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
A very simple song, consisting of a short melody and a repetitive refrain, could be similarly okay.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Feliz Navidad.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Thinking about it, even a more complex song would probably be okay, reproduced piecewise throughout an analysis or somesuch.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Happy Birthday To You.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Ok. A haiku or other very short work, especially for academic use, I buy.
That's black-and-white fair use.
quote:I am not convinced that the full lyrics (or a large fraction thereof) of a song, for non-academic use, is in the same ballpark.
You're right - it's out of the trivial case and into the gray area.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Reproducing Happy Birthday To You in many settings is not generally fair use. That's why restaurants who'll do birthday parties for kids generally sing their own little made up ditties. While it is probably fair use to sing for someone's birthday at home (at least, the copyright holder would never dare go after random people for it), reproducing it in print is probably generally not okay.
I suspect the copyright holder of Feliz Navidad has mostly given up trying to enforce it in many situations, either out of benevolence or exasperation .
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Oh, I forgot some big ones. Google (and other) internet caches. To distribute copies of the song for study to a class. Copies of almost anything you've already purchased, for limited personal use.
Posted by Threads (Member # 10863) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Happy Birthday To You.
quote:Reproducing Happy Birthday To You in many settings is not generally fair use.
I suspect that reproducing the lyrics of the two-line song is.
X = "Happy Birthday to you" Y = "Happy Birtday dear " + name
print X print X print Y print X
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Don't take my word for it, take the courts' (check out the Snopes link). People routinely pay thousands of dollars for the right to present renditions of it (notably in movies).
edit: I do not mean to imply the courts have ruled against reproducing the lyrics. They have ruled on who owns the copyright, and that there is a copyright.
Notably, the song Happy Birthday is based on (Good Morning to All) is in the public domain, so you can sing that all you want. You could even describe the differences between the two lyrics, most definitely.
The courts might even agree you could reproduce the lyrics completely, but I woudn't call it certain.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I didn't call it certain either. I said that I suspected it.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Hah. There's threads in poor taste, there's threads in really poor taste, and then there's this.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
And then there's subject/verb agreement!
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Noemon: And then there's subject/verb agreement!
This moment is preserved on the internet forever >:[
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
There seems to be a lot of snark around here lately Posted by Dobbie (Member # 3881) on :
quote:You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by this BB.
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