In an alternate Potterverse, Lord Voldemort, at the height of his powers, with all six of his horcruxes intact, is bored with his life. Experimenting with time travel, he arrives in a dark and forboding plain encircled by mountains, with only a large volcano and an enormous black tower to break the monotony. Assuming, as is his wont, that the world is his for the taking, Voldemort apparates to the top of the tower, where he is confronted by a huge form in menacing armor, contemplating him silently. Rather taken aback, Voldemort draws his wand. The huge form shifts his hands, and Voldemort's gaze is drawn to a ring on its index finger.
Who wins? Voldemort and his horcruxes or Sauron and his Ring of Power?
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Have Voldemorts horocruxes all survived how ever many years it has taken him to get to Middle-Earth?
I should think the ring would know who is stronger and end up killing the weaker of the two.
I go with whatever the ring decides.
Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
Your Sauron is the movie version, so I'd give it to Voldemort. The book Sauron would waste Voldemort.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
The Ring is the original horcrux. Riddle's are a pale imitation.
I'd say that Sauron's ring can control Riddle's horcruxes like it controlled the other rings.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
That's sort of like taking a knife to gun fight, isn't it?
Actually, it's more like taking a knife to a thermo-nuclear war. Voldemort couldn't beat Gandalf, let alone a ringed Sauron.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Agreed, Sauron owns. Hell I'd say Galadriel could take Voldemort if she was using Nenya, being one of the last of a House that fought of Melkor, who dwarfs Sauron's power, for an Age, I think she could take him.
Better question would be Gandalf vs. Dumbledore.
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
Or Dumbledore vs. the Hulk!
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Actually, it's more like taking a knife to a thermo-nuclear war. Voldemort couldn't beat Gandalf, let alone a ringed Sauron.
And that's true even if we give Tommy-boy the deathstick.
I doubt Voldemort could destroy a Nazgul, although it's likely he could escape them as needed.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Better question would be Gandalf vs. Dumbledore.
They'd both win, because love conquers all.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
If Gandalf and Dumbledore met they'd spend half an hour doing the ol' mirror routine before either of them could figure out they weren't the same person.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
The thing about this comparison is do we take everything at face value? Does a killing curse work on Sauron if it hits anywhere? Is Sauron aware of this curse or Voldemorts abilities? If horocruxes work wouldn't anything Sauron does fail to kill Voldy? Is Voldemort capable of being in awe of Saurons power and as a result learning from that branch of magic? Why can't Voldemort ask to be servant while plotting Sauron's demise?
I think if you simply threw Tom and Sauron into the arena, and assuming both are beatable, Sauron based on his vast greater experience and power would beat Voldemort who would not know what to make of Sauron as he has always fancied himself the most evil thing around.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Coming in late, here, but Sauron is among the most powerful (or is he the most powerful) of the Maiar. The Maiar are only minor gods, but even with his horcruxes, Voldemort is just a man. Sauron would bind him to his will faster than you could say "taters". That or just kill him.
[ July 30, 2007, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Noemon ]
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Wouldn't that depend on whether or not it's Dumbledore the White or Dumbledore the Grey?
Posted by GForce (Member # 9584) on :
I've been thinking about the differences between the portrayal of evil characters in LotR and HP. It seems to me that Voldemort is little more than a terrorist. In other words, he is bent on destruction for its own sake rather than domination. Also, he apparently has little influence over world events. While he certainly can, and does, go and kill people in other countries, these are isolated incidents, and he has no followers (that I know of) outside of the British Isles. In 7 we did get to see him begin his take over of England, and perhaps from there he would have gone on to form an empire with the goal of conquering the world, but that will remain unknown to us.
Sauron, on the other hand, was THE main influence in Middle Earth for thousands of years. He DID create an empire capable of conquering the world and he DID persuade the powers that be (Numenorians for the most part) to bend to his will. For this reason, Sauron wins.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Does a killing curse work on Sauron if it hits anywhere?
Sauron survived a divinely-created cataclysm that destroyed a large island. Avada Kadavra is like a sneeze compared to that.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee:
quote:Does a killing curse work on Sauron if it hits anywhere?
Sauron survived a divinely-created cataclysm that destroyed a large island. Avada Kadavra is like a sneeze compared to that.
Exactly, so we can't really take anything at face value. The magic in the Potterverse seems like it is orders of magnitude weaker then the magic you might see in Middle-Earth.
edit: Also Voldemort lived what 50+ years? Sauron counts his age in millenia? Maybe if Voldemort had an endless supply of magical tomes that he could spend his time studying he might have a chance once he reaches his 50th centenial millenial year.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Potterverse magic-users just aren't in the same class as Maiar!
On the other hand, Sauron -did- once suffer defeat at the hands (paws?) of a talking dog... Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:On the other hand, Sauron -did- once suffer defeat at the hands (paws?) of a talking dog...
Are you speaking concerning Hobbits?
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
No, I'm talking of Huan. Talking dog. He defeated Sauron once. Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Or are you venturing into Terry Brooks territory? Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Well... We get told a lot about how powerful the One Ring is, but we never actually see it do anything other than make its bearer invisible and attract the attention of his enemies. The Potterverse has this level of magic in gimmick items that are given out to school children! In a similar vein, the Nazgul are very scary magic creatures and all, but they seem to rely on swords to do any actual killing. There doesn't seem to be any death-curse equivalent in Middle-Earth, or presumably Sauron would use it; so it's unlikely he has any defenses against that sort of magic. I think Voldemort might have a pretty good chance.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Compared to magic-users in other fantasy lands all around, the Potterverse wizards seem a tad under-powered.
Jadis: Empress of Charn, later the White Witch of Narnia. On her home world her magic was incalculably powerful, including knowledge of a Deplorable Word that allowed her to destroy the entire population of her planet down to the smallest insect. Able to destroy buildings with a gesture, read minds, super-humanly strong.
After eating the Apple of Youth in Narnia became ageless. Able to command the very elements, turn enemies to stone, knew all manner of dark spells and tricks. Ruled with an iron grip for a century. Could only be defeated by the conditions of an ancient prophecy concerning four specific children of a certain origin and an omnipotent Lion being fulfilled. Though as we learn later: "But whoever heard of a Witch who really died?"
Compared to that, Voldie looks like a bit of a poser.
[ July 30, 2007, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: Puffy Treat ]
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: Well... We get told a lot about how powerful the One Ring is, but we never actually see it do anything other than make its bearer invisible and attract the attention of his enemies.
Galadriel explained that. The One Ring only will perform according to the strength of will and innate vitality of its current Bearer. She told Frodo if he wanted to do more with it, he'd have to become much stronger himself...and even then it would eventually use him up. In the hands of a Noldor or a Maiar though...
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Puffy Treat: No, I'm talking of Huan. Talking dog. He defeated Sauron once.
Now could he only speak but 3 times, or was the prophecy self fulfilling? Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Or are you venturing into Terry Brooks territory?
Hey, man! The Valar had their very own talking dog! Don't tell me that's not cool. Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by Puffy Treat:
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: Well... We get told a lot about how powerful the One Ring is, but we never actually see it do anything other than make its bearer invisible and attract the attention of his enemies.
Galadriel explained that. The One Ring only will perform according to the strength of vitality of its current Bearer. She told Frodo if he wanted to do more with it, he'd have to become much stronger himself...and even then it would eventually use him up. In the hands of a Noldor or a Maiar though...
Or in the hands of Aragorn, which is what Sauron was most afraid would happen.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Compared to that, Voldie looks like a bit of a poser.
There's no doubt that evil in the HP books is a much more human evil.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Yeah, one of Numenorean descent could conceivably have done great, terrible things with the Ring.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
quote:There's no doubt that evil in the HP books is a much more human evil.
True. Voldemort is really sort of an amped up serial killer psychopath.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by Puffy Treat:
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Or are you venturing into Terry Brooks territory?
Hey, man! The Valar had their very own talking dog! Don't tell me that's not cool.
That's not cool.
*flees*
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by Puffy Treat:
quote:There's no doubt that evil in the HP books is a much more human evil.
True. Voldemort is really sort of an amped up serial killer psychopath.
He shows signs of RAD.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
I dunno. Looking at the Gaunt family, I get the feeling that even if Merope had lived and raised him, he'd still have some serious mental and emotional health issues.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
For one, I doubt he'd have been head boy after he nailed a basilisk to the front door of Hogwarts.
Posted by GForce (Member # 9584) on :
This was fun. I think I'll do another one.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
May I suggest you rename this thread to a general ultimate showdown thread. You can update the title to reflect the current one. Maybe you'll have a never-ending thread. Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by Puffy Treat:
quote:There's no doubt that evil in the HP books is a much more human evil.
True. Voldemort is really sort of an amped up serial killer psychopath.
It's interesting that he started out as a much more Sauron-like force in the world, and slowly got humanized as the series went on.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: For one, I doubt he'd have been head boy after he nailed a basilisk to the front door of Hogwarts.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: It's interesting that he started out as a much more Sauron-like force in the world, and slowly got humanized as the series went on.
He finally started turning up on-page enough that we got to know him beyond his self-created myth.
Posted by LargeTuna (Member # 10512) on :
ONE RING TO RULE THEM ALL, ONE RING TO FIND THEM. ONE RING TO BRING THEM ALL INTO THE DARKNESS BIND THEM!!!! Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
Sauron = minor god, and the most powerful of them at that. The killing spell would not work on him, he could only be destroyed by destroying the ring. Now maybe if voldy was smart, and apparated to the Cracks of Doom and then Accio One Ring...
But he's much more likely to be corrupted by it and then end up a mere wraith servant to Sauron
Hell even Gandalf was of the Maiar. Gandalf could have just stepped on Voldy. Gandalf took down a Balrog, another Maiar for crying out loud!
Posted by Crotalus (Member # 7339) on :
No, no, no. You've all got it wrong. See, Lord Foul would show up, having wrested the WHITE GOLD from Thomas Covenant, and unleash some wild magic that would just lay everything and everyone to waste.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote: Hell even Gandalf was of the Maiar. Gandalf could have just stepped on Voldy.
He was an artifically impotent Maiar. He had to be, for them to even let him come over to Middle Earth at all.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
I think the plural is Maiar and the singular is Maia. Just like the singular is Vala and the plural is Valar. Just sayin.
I wonder if that means the singular of Eldar is Elda?
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
Googlefight isn't working. How will we ever know the answer? (umm, the answer to the OP, that is, not to Tatiana's question!)
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
quote:He was an artifically impotent Maiar. He had to be, for them to even let him come over to Middle Earth at all.
He took down a Balrog! Balrog's weren't restrained by the rules of the Valar. And the Istari weren't completely impotent, they were just limited in the powers they could use. The Istari were sent by the Valar as the Valar's emissaries and as aid to the people of Middle earth in fighting Sauron. So they couldn't use the full power of the Maiar, but they were still wizards. They still had power.
Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee:
quote:Does a killing curse work on Sauron if it hits anywhere?
Sauron survived a divinely-created cataclysm that destroyed a large island. Avada Kadavra is like a sneeze compared to that.
While I agree with your conclusions, I feel compelled to point out that this cataclysm seriously screwed Sauron up. IIRC, he couldn't manifest himself in human form, and even when he could, he could no longer take a form pleasing to mortals. Sounds like what happened to Tom when he was left to survive on his horcruxes after his first failed killing curse. Who knows? Maybe the One Ring WAS the original horcrux!
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
Incidently, I believe this was pre-one Ring. Also surviving in that manner after facing the rage of the Valar (the gods) which sank an island and killed much of a people vs. surviving in that manner after a single killing curse (which, while we were initially told couldn't be blocked, later experience suggests that it can be blocked).
Hmm...
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by Puffy Treat:
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: Well... We get told a lot about how powerful the One Ring is, but we never actually see it do anything other than make its bearer invisible and attract the attention of his enemies.
Galadriel explained that. The One Ring only will perform according to the strength of will and innate vitality of its current Bearer. She told Frodo if he wanted to do more with it, he'd have to become much stronger himself...and even then it would eventually use him up. In the hands of a Noldor or a Maiar though...
Well, that doesn't make any sense. Frodo is the one character who has the strength of will to resist being corrupted by the Ring. And as for vitality, he marches through the blasted lands of Mordor on three crumbs of trail bread and a bit of encouragement from Sam.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: Well, that doesn't make any sense. Frodo is the one character who has the strength of will to resist being corrupted by the Ring.
Someone didn't read all of the trilogy!
Frodo failed! He fell to temptation and was corrupted! The only reason the Ring got destroyed in the end was because Fate ensured Smeagol was around to bite Frodo's ring finger off before toppling into the cracks.
The only character in Middle Earth we -know- was beyond being corrupted by the Ring is Tom Bombadil...and that's because he has no desires, he just -is-.
Edit to add:
And furthermore, Galadriel's explanation never mentioned resisting temptation as a way to exercise the ring's full power. Quite the opposite.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Sauron is a divine being, albiet fallen. Voldemort is a mortal.
Sauron wins.
Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
Yeah, but what about Superman vs Spiderman??
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
quote:Maybe the One Ring WAS the original horcrux!
It almost certainly is, don't you think? After all, the Ring keeps Sauron alive after he is dead, corrupts those who possess it, and can't be destroyed except through the rarest of means. It sounds almost exactly like Voldemort's horcruxes - except Sauron appears to be much more adept at making them. Voldemort may have gone with the "quantity" approach to horcruxes, but you'd definitely go to Sauron if you wanted a quality Horcrux.
Posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick (Member # 9302) on :
Wow, a Horcrux that significantly increases its user's power. I guess practice makes perfect.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:The only character in Middle Earth we -know- was beyond being corrupted by the Ring is Tom Bombadil
Sam was tempted, but overcame the temptation.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Sauron alive after he is dead
Sauron can't die. The destruction of the Ring doesn't kill him, but makes him so weak and insignificant that no one can foresee him rising again. This happens because Sauron placed some of his power into the Ring, and that power was destroyed.
The Ring made Sauron both more powerful and more vulnerable than he otherwise would have been, but it didn't affect his mortality.
BTW, the Ring was created before the fall of Numenor, but Sauron did not take it to Numenor when he surrendered.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: Sam was tempted, but overcame the temptation.
For the brief time he carried it, yes. If he had had to carry it as long (or longer) than Frodo did, would he have lasted indefinitely? Evidence in the text points towards "no"...the ring wears out any mortal in the end. Some it just needs longer to work on.
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
quote:Sauron can't die. The destruction of the Ring doesn't kill him, but makes him so weak and insignificant that no one can foresee him rising again. This happens because Sauron placed some of his power into the Ring, and that power was destroyed.
Where does it say this in LotR?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
At the Council of Elrond Gandalf runs through the choices, including that destroying the Ring would "make him so weak and insignificant that no one can foresee him rising again."
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
Ahhh... so perhaps it operates differently with immortal minor gods. Still sounds like a horcrux though...
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
It has a lot of similarities. HOwever, there are a lot of different rings, and they all extended life while making their owners more powerful.
Also,, in the Silmarillion it goes into better detail regarding Sauron's nature, although he is a very minor player at that point.
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
This is the most geeky thread I have seen in a long time. I love it!
quote: If Gandalf and Dumbledore met they'd spend half an hour doing the ol' mirror routine before either of them could figure out they weren't the same person.
Thanks for forcing me to spit my drink through my nose!
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
What are some other examples of a device where someone puts their soul/essence/power (or part of it) into an object, making them stronger/immortal/etc.?
The One Ring from Tolkien
Horcruxes from JKR
in the book Taran Wanderer, a magician put his soul in his finger, then cut off and hid that finger.
In D&D, there's a spell called Magic Jar which lets you put your soul into a jem.
What are some more examples?
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
There are some Russian folktales that have some wizard/magician placing his soul in some object outside of his body.
Here is an excerpt from a Wickipedia article on "Koschei":
"Koschei cannot be killed by conventional means targeting his body. His soul is hidden separate from his body inside a needle, which is in an egg, which is in a duck, which is in a hare, which is in an iron chest, which is buried under a green oak tree, which is on the island of Buyan, in the ocean. As long as his soul is safe, he cannot die. If the chest is dug up and opened, the hare will bolt away. If it is killed, the duck will emerge and try to fly off. Anyone possessing the egg has Koschei in their power. He begins to weaken, becomes sick and immediately loses the use of his magic. If the egg is tossed about, he likewise is flung around against his will. If the needle is broken (in some tales this must be done by specifically breaking it against Koschei's forehead), Koschei will die."
I hate to say it, but it looks like the Russians invented this idea first!
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Dorian Gray, kinda.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Who wins? Voldemort and his horcruxes or Sauron and his Ring of Power?
Goku.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
SSJ4?
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
quote: Frodo failed! He fell to temptation and was corrupted! The only reason the Ring got destroyed in the end was because Fate ensured Smeagol was around to bite Frodo's ring finger off before toppling into the cracks.
...but he succeeded by earlier taking pity on Gollum.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:And furthermore, Galadriel's explanation never mentioned resisting temptation as a way to exercise the ring's full power. Quite the opposite.
Well, duh. The point was strength of will, which can be used either to resist the Ring, or to command it. Plainly, Frodo has vast amounts of strength-of-will. I can see you're right about failing in the end, but still, he is clearly the mortal character best able to resist the effect - recall that Galadriel is strongly tempted from holding the dang thing for two minutes; Frodo carries it around his neck for months on end.
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
But Frodo clearly couldn't use it so well cuz he got beat up by Gollum; didn't burn Gollum dead or something like that.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
And the trick with putting your heart in a separate place is fairly common in European folk tales.
Edit: Which, indeed, is where Tolkien was deliberately fetching his inspiration, so it is perhaps not too surprising.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Again: Resisting the One Ring for a long time was never given as the key to commanding it. Having innate supply of personal power, like a Wizard/Elf Lord/Numenorean type was also a factor. Hence Galadriel's reference to Frodo's need to become much "mightier".
The strength of will referred to in this case refers to the exercise of magical power, not just Frodo's stern moral backbone and inborn halfing toughness.
If he had the knowledge and power that Galadriel, Gandalf, etc had...he could have done far more with the ring. But he didn't.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Yup. The power that Frodo had inside him was enough to let him become another gollum with the ring, but that's about it.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Exactly, which is why the least of all peoples were the only ones who could (somewhat) safely handle the Ring, as the great "magic" users of Middle-earth would be able to tap more of the power of the Ring and thus be more tempted.
Posted by anti_maven (Member # 9789) on :
Voldemort vs Sauron ?
Nil-nil after extra time, with the victory going to Sauron on penalties.
How about Molly Weasley vs Rambo?
*ducks and runs*
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
One more comment as "The One Ring" as a Horcrux.
I can see it now.
Frodo visiting the elves happens across a rare Evil book in the library. Glancing through it, and going into more and more details, suddenly he screams...
"A basilik fang! A stupid basilik fang would have destroyed it? No Mordor. NO F'n Mt Doom. No stupid dry Lembas coming out of my ears!!!!
Gandalf you #@$@#$@#!!! Haven't you ever heard of RESEARCH!"
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
In fairness to Gandalf, I believe that book was in the Restricted Section, and Madam Pince wasn't buying his forged teacher's note.
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
Dan: Not to mention some idiotic spell that Hermione conveniently doesn't mention.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
There's a whole slew of LotR vs. HP matches that would be fun to see.
Gandalf vs. Dumbledore. A Ring Wraith vs. A Dementor. A Cave Troll vs. Grawp. Wormtongue vs. Wormtail. The Old Forest vs. Hogwart's Forbidden Forest. Shelob vs. Aragog. Smaug vs. A Hungarian Horntail Eowyn (protecting Theoden) vs. Molly (protecting Ginny). Gollum vs. Kreacher. A Warg vs. Lupin (in wolf form)
Someone should do a graphic novel or something.
Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
I'm pretty sure Rand al'Thor would destroy them all.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Just like he has done to any possible enjoyment of any readers above the age of 15.
Posted by JaneX (Member # 2026) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: I think the plural is Maiar and the singular is Maia. Just like the singular is Vala and the plural is Valar. Just sayin.
I wonder if that means the singular of Eldar is Elda?
Yup. It is.
I am also really enjoying the incredible geekiness of this thread.
~Jane~
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
quote:Gandalf vs. Dumbledore. A Ring Wraith vs. A Dementor. A Cave Troll vs. Grawp. Wormtongue vs. Wormtail. The Old Forest vs. Hogwart's Forbidden Forest. Shelob vs. Aragog. Smaug vs. A Hungarian Horntail Eowyn (protecting Theoden) vs. Molly (protecting Ginny). Gollum vs. Kreacher. A Warg vs. Lupin (in wolf form)
In answer:
Gandalf vs. Dumbledore.
Gandalf is the clear winner here. Dumbledore may be awesome, and a powerful wizard. But Gandalf is a powerful wizard and a minor god to boot. I just don't see Dumbledore winning that. Of course, I really can't see a scenario where they'd fight and not just sit down and laugh with each other over a cup of tea.
A Ring Wraith vs. A Dementor.
Ring Wraith. Ring wraiths and dementors both have fear stuff going for them, but ring wraiths have a lot more than that. They have the power of the nine rings, they have morgul blades, their fell-beast rides, etc. All dementors have going for them aside the fear thing is the soul sucking kiss. Cept I'm pretty sure wraiths don't even have souls to suck anymore (probably open to debate).
A Cave Troll vs. Grawp.
That one's a tough call. I think I'm gonna have to go with Grawp since he went head to head with not one, but two fully grown giants that were around 20 ft tall. Cave trolls top out at around 16 ft and are considerably dumber than the giants of HP (which is saying something).
Wormtongue vs. Wormtail.
Wormtail. He cast a spell that killed 13 people. One spell! Wormtongue hasn't shown ability to do much more than talk Theoden into a stupor and backstab Sarumann.
The Old Forest vs. Hogwart's Forbidden Forest.
The Old Forest. No contest. Hell, Old Man Willow all by himself could take on the Forbidden Forest!
Shelob vs. Aragog.
Shelob. Unless Aragog's family joins the fray and then it's Aragog by pure numbers.
Smaug vs. A Hungarian Horntail
Smaug. No amount of work by the Ministry of Magical Creatures could hide the existence of the Great Wryms of Middle Earth. They are way smarter, way more powerful and way harder to kill than the dragons of HP. Smaug would roast a horntail in a picosecond.
Eowyn (protecting Theoden) vs. Molly (protecting Ginny).
Molly. Eowyn, while awesome, is still just a girl with a sword. Molly has a crapload of spells up her sleeve. But again, can't concoct a situation where they'd go at each other.
Gollum vs. Kreacher.
Kreacher, unless Gollum has the ring, but even then it's iffy, Kreacher'd probably win. Kreacher has all the magic of the house elves. Gollum's just a corrupted hobbit ancestor.
A Warg vs. Lupin (in wolf form)
A warg. James as a stag and Serius as a big black dog were able to control a wolfed out Lupin. A warg would shred him. Now a wizard Lupin would win hands down.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I agree with you on every match-up except maybe Lupin vs. Warg. I thought that Serius and James could control Lupin because they were his friends and knew how to handle him. I don't think that they overpowered him.
Regarding The Old Forest vs. Hogwart's Forbidden Forest: I was originally going to say Fangorn, but I figured THAT would really be no contest.
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
Shelob and Aragog would join and start a breed of super hybrid giant spiders.
Posted by SC Carver (Member # 8173) on :
You guys do realize this is how really bad movies get made...
I can't decide if I want to completely give in to my inner nerd and love this thread or run screaming and pretend to be cool.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Re Shelob vs. Aragog: Shelob has a whole bunch of descendants as well. And besides, we should really be comparing Aragog and Ungoliant, not Aragog and Shelob.
Re Hill Troll vs. Gorp: Why are you comparing a ME troll with a PV giant? Both worlds have both trolls and giants, and I'd say they're probably pretty evenly matched.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Ungoliant isn't a fair match for Aragog. She was pretty much a demon in spider form that devoured light itself. Aragog is just a giant spider, and an old one too.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Just like Gandalf isn't a fair match for Dumbledore, and Smaug isn't a fair match for Norberta.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
It's actually kind of an interesting comparison. All of the removed, powerful characters from LOTR would mop the floor with their equivilents in HP, but all the more average people in HP would destroy all the more normal characters in LOTR.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I'd say that's generally correct.
Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: It's actually kind of an interesting comparison. All of the removed, powerful characters from LOTR would mop the floor with their equivilents in HP, but all the more average people in HP would destroy all the more normal characters in LOTR.
That's deep man....
(In all seriousness, I think the literary explanation for this has a lot to do with the fact that the HP books are about how great events relate to the title character, whereas LOTR focuses on the events leading to the culmination of centuries of strife and warfare. In LOTR those who brought about victory were, for the most part, of little reckoning in their world (at least until all was said and done). From a wide perspective, in LOTR we see everything in proportions great and majestic. In HP the audience regards it all in how it relates to a pubescent teenage boy. There's really not all that much grand about that!)
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Just like Gandalf isn't a fair match for Dumbledore, and Smaug isn't a fair match for Norberta.
Yes, but in the case of Ungoliant a closer match exists (ie. Shelob).
I reached the same conclusion as MrSquicky when I was making the match-ups. The fact is that all of the regular people in the wizarding world of HP are... well, wizards. Whereas in ME only certain people have any notable magical powers, but those that do are immortal and/or semi-divine. So yes, your average HP person (not counting muggles, of course) can easily beat your average LotR person, but the powerful entities in LotR are peerless in HP.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
quote:Aragog is just a giant spider, and an old one too.
But because she lives in the HP world, her venom is fabulously valuable.
Also, I don't think LOTR had mermaids, unicorns and centaurs. Just sayin'.
Posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick (Member # 9302) on :
Re: Lupin vs. warg.
I think it would depend if there was a full moon out, and if Lupin had access to Wolfsbane potion. As a wizard, Lupin would demolish the warg. As a feral werewolf, he would be owned, as he can't overpower the warg with brute strength. With the potion, Lupin can think clearly, and I'd give him an even chance.
Posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick (Member # 9302) on :
Also, I'd say that the Forbidden forest would win, but I would include all the creatures that reside in the Forest, as I believe them to be part of the forest itself.
How's this for a fight: Hogwarts vs. Barad-dur.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
In that case you'd have to include Tom Bombadil in the Old Forest. Second we don't really know what all lives in the Old Forest, some pretty scary stuff by the account of Tom Bombadil. Third the trees of the Forbidden Forest haven't shown any real sentience per-se the way the trees of the Old Forest have. So when I said Old Forest hands down I was thinking the OF would pretty much just go in and knock over all the FF trees, much the way the Fangorn Hurons pretty much ate the orcs (the Fangorn and the OF were once part of the same world forest and both still have trees old enough to remember it). So even though the FF has centaurs and unicorns and Aragog's offspring and all that, I'd still give it over to the OF. Those trees are scary, plus Bombadil can kick anything's butt.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
quote:How's this for a fight: Hogwarts vs. Barad-dur.
That rests on whether we include Sauron (and in what state of power) and the ring wraiths in Barad-dur. If we do, then Hogwarts doesn't stand a chance, if we don't, then the wizards of Hogwarts will simply mow down the orcs of Barad-dur. Sauron with the one ring alone could just about take out Hogwarts, seeing as, until the ring was removed from his finger, he was mowing down the last alliance.
Posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick (Member # 9302) on :
quote:Originally posted by Alcon: That rests on whether we include Sauron (and in what state of power) and the ring wraiths in Barad-dur. If we do, then Hogwarts doesn't stand a chance, if we don't, then the wizards of Hogwarts will simply mow down the orcs of Barad-dur. Sauron with the one ring alone could just about take out Hogwarts, seeing as, until the ring was removed from his finger, he was mowing down the last alliance. [/QB]
I'm not actually including any of those. No wizards, no Orcs, no Sauron, no nothing. Hogwarts is a living castle (or close to living, anyway), and Barad-dur has it's own evil power. Both have some capability to defend themselves.
Posted by anti_maven (Member # 9789) on :
A la Bag-end vs Privet Drive?
You am a twisted puppy Mr Toad on a Stick...
Howsabout Nearly-Headlesss Nick et al. vs. The Dead Men of Dunharrow?
or indeed:
The Orcs of Moria vs. The Goblins of Gringotts?
One fall, two holds or a submission. No biting, gouging or hitting below the belt...
[ August 06, 2007, 05:12 AM: Message edited by: anti_maven ]
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
quote:No biting, gouging or hitting below the belt...
But that is the Orcish Manual of Arms.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: What are some other examples of a device where someone puts their soul/essence/power (or part of it) into an object, making them stronger/immortal/etc.?
The One Ring from Tolkien
Horcruxes from JKR
in the book Taran Wanderer, a magician put his soul in his finger, then cut off and hid that finger.
In D&D, there's a spell called Magic Jar which lets you put your soul into a jem.
What are some more examples?
The Red Crown of Omadon from "Flight of Dragons".
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
A lot of Russian folk tales had magicians cutting out their hearts and hiding them to protect themselves, IIRC.
I would agree that Dorian Gray was an good example as well.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
The Potterverse vs. the Frodoverse:
The Frodoverse. It actually has a well-constructed background and magic with some semblance of rules.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by anti_maven: The Orcs of Moria vs. The Goblins of Gringotts?
It depends. With the exception of a few subtypes, Tolkein's orcs tended to be pretty weak and stupid. However, there were pretty much always a lot of them, so numbers might tip the scale.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
What I find interesting is that Rowling used the bastardized idea of the Elves as short things with little power. One thing Tolkien despised was the fall of the perception of the Elves of mythology to diminutive silly sprites, and even went as far as voicing his anger with Shakespeare with contributing to this idea in “Midsummer Night”. Tolkien said that another place the trend began was in “Canterbury Tales” when one of the characters was talking about the Fair Folk and how they have “diminished” in the face of Christianity. What was meant that the belief in them was dying out, or that the Elves’ influence was fading, but readers took it as the Elves shrank in stature.
Hence we go from tall, powerful beings living in hills or in the train of the Gods, blessing swords and whatnot, to Santa’s helpers, the Keebler elves, and now house elves, etc…
Granted Rowling isn’t an anthropologist and was just using the myths as they are popularly thought of, as apposed to the real sources of that myth. Another example is how she used the Goblins instead of the Dwarves/gnomes. As far as I am aware the root of the word goblin means demon, however many translators in olden days would group dwarves, gnomes, and goblins as the same thing. This inaccuracy would have then spread to the general population and thus giving the goblins the same characteristics as the dwarves.
Of course, on second thought, she might very well know all this and decided to use the versions that she did on purpose. Not the choice that I as a Tolkien sympathizer and Elf lover would have chosen, but heck, it's not my story.
[ August 06, 2007, 05:11 AM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:The Potterverse vs. the Frodoverse
*stones AFR for using the abominable word "Frodoverse"*
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
:::throws a second stone:::
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Yes, it's clearly "Frodo of the Nine fingerverse"
P.S. House Elves were small but had magic that was more powerful in different ways or something.
[ August 06, 2007, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: pooka ]
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Oh no, how could I have killed the Sauron v. Voldemort thread?
Okay, what about Arwen v. Fleur? Who is sexier?
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
Arwen.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Arwen/Luthien.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Wait-- Arwen of the movie, or Arwen of the book?
Arwen of the book didn't do much, that I remember...
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
That's why I said Arwen/Luthien. Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:The Potterverse vs. the Frodoverse
*stones AFR for using the abominable word "Frodoverse"*
You're just answering my question. Notice how you didn't get up in arms about "Potterverse" because it's a universe you don't care about. So nyah.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quote:Notice how you didn't get up in arms about "Potterverse" because it's a universe you don't care about. So nyah
"Potterverse" accurately identifies the milieu of that story. "Frodoverse" is demeaning because it implies that Middle Earth is simply Frodo's story. Not true. Not even remotely true.
The Harry Potter books, on the other hand, exist to tell Harry's story, so "Potterverse" is accurate. Middle Earth does not exist to tell Frodo's story however, there are many powerful, deep, rich tales set in Middle Earth that don't involve Frodo at all.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Not to mention the fact* that Middle Earth already has a name.
*What the heck does this phrase mean? Pretty much the opposite of what it says?
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
Don't look now, but I'm posting something.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Frodoverse:Middle Earth::Dobbyverse:Potterverse
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Middle Earth is actually a little too specific to mean the entire sphere of Tolkien stories set in that (this?) universe. The undying lands, sometimes called Valinor, are outside ME, of course, and much of the cycle is set there.
Arda is the word that means the whole world, and Ea (with dots over the a) designates the entire material or physical universe, which was created with the song of the Ainur. There's no word, as far as I know, for the whole of everything including the realms in which Eru Illuvatar dwelt before the Ainur were created out of this thought, and where they were when they sang Ea into being.
Ea means "it is" or "that which is". That's probably the closest translation of "universe" that exists in the languages of Arda.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Illuvatar and the other Ainur reside in the "Timeless Halls" (strangely which is what the palace of Manwe & Varda at the summit of Taniquetil, Ilmarin, is called at times) and Eä is Everything else.
So Eä and the Timeless Halls. Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Or just Middle-Earth. It's not technically correct, but it's a heck of a lot better than Frodoverse.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
And while it isn't technically correct, most people will know what you're referring to if you call it Middle Earth. Eä and the Timeless Halls--not so much.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
And you won't get stoned for it either.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:Originally posted by Telperion the Silver: Illuvatar and the other Ainur reside in the "Timeless Halls" (strangely which is what the palace of Manwe & Varda at the summit of Taniquetil, Ilmarin, is called at times) and Eä is Everything else.
So Eä and the Timeless Halls.
Great band name. Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: And you won't get stoned for it either.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
I usually use 'Tolkienverse' when I want to refer to the stories Tolkien created.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
OK, how's this.... Tolkien Orcs v.s. Klingons (TNG or later editions).
OK, easy. Klingon's.
So what would happen if we put up a couple Klingon's VS a Tolkien Troll...
(well, for one thing, the Klingon's would have an instant Wargasm and begin hacking away to their own delight.)
Posted by Mike (Member # 55) on :
I think the Uruk-hai would be about even with Klingons. The troll would squash the Klingons. Then again, I'm not including phasers and similar technology.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Klingons, both times, against both opponents, with or without phasers.
And I'm not a fan of Star Trek. But Klingons are smarter and much stronger than orcs; and are smarter than trolls.
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