1. Smoke. You're holding a sign that says "Hungry, please help, GOD BLESS," but you've got money for cigarettes? Guess you don't need any of mine.
2. Sporadically use a wheelchair. Dude, you were standing last week, in the chair the week before, and standing the week before that, rinse and repeat. Bonus points for sprawling in the chair like it's a lawnchair in your backyard and you just wanted to be comfortable on the corner. Double bonus points for three or four people rotating through the same chair.
3. Be wearing headphones. Okay, I'm sure it's boring. But my sympathy just vanished.
4. Be a healthy looking 20-something with a hip backpack and a sign that says "Traveling cross-country, please help." Um, help fund your vacation? Why wouldn't I put that money towards my own? Triple bonus points for being part of a group who are standing on all four corners of the intersection.
I don't give to people on the street often, anyway, but I do occasionally. But not when any of the above apply. Or even better, 2 or 3 of the above mixed and matched!
Do you have any triggers that make you automatically not going to "help someone out"?
*Not that you were thinking of doing that or anything.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
When they RUSH at me on a nearly deserted parking lot going "Hey! Hey you! You have money for a bus ticket?"
That sorta dampens my willingness to give. No running. No "Hey you", please.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I had a guy come out of the convenience store at a gas station, come over to my car, and put air in my tires while I was filling my gas tank. I thought he worked at the station, but then he told me he was homeless and any spare change would be helpful, even if it as just pennies. I was a bit annoyed that I was ambushed, especially given the fact that I had to fix my tires afterwards because he'd overinflated them. But he seemed sincere so I gave him a couple dollars in spare change.
I never give more than a few dollars at a time, and mostly I base on whether or not I believe them. I can't think of any one thing specifically that'll disqualify them, it's just my overall impression.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
"Sporadically use a wheelchair. Dude, you were standing last week, in the chair the week before, and standing the week before that, rinse and repeat. Bonus points for sprawling in the chair like it's a lawnchair in your backyard and you just wanted to be comfortable on the corner. Double bonus points for three or four people rotating through the same chair."
Hee hee.
When I was in San Jose in Costa Rica I was repeatedly approached by the same panhandler. He was barefoot both times. The first time, his story was that his shoes, wallet, etc. were all stolen the night before, and that he didn't know anyone in town. After he walked up to me again, 4 weeks later, again barefoot, I didn't bother listening. I mean, what, in 4 weeks, you can't call home, get some money, and buy some shoes for yourself?
I admit I gave him 1200 Colones, which is about 3 bucks, the first time. He said he was hungry. Oh well.
Seriously though, an American making his living panhandling other Americans in Costa Rica?
[ July 12, 2007, 01:43 AM: Message edited by: steven ]
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
Meh, grifting is a job. There's a guy here in Seattle who sells Real Change in the same place, all day, every day. He's a fixture in front of this particular Safeway. He looks poor, but not necessarily homeless, and he's about 45-55, although I can't be sure.
I've watched him unlock and drive away in his ~2000 BMW 3 series.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
If they're wearing clothes or shoes that cost 5 or 10 x or more as much as anything I've ever been able to afford. (beggars in downtown Vancouver wearing Doc Martens.)
If they're parked right in front of the entrance to the liquor store. (But hey, at least they're being honest about what they want the money for, right? And also Vancouver.)
If they touch me, grab me, or pull on my clothes. (Tijuana & Sri Lanka.)
If they use a child that's been rotated through the other beggars. (Sri Lanka.)
If they follow me, yelling in my ear, and will not leave me alone. (Mexico & Sri Lanka.)
If they target me for being white while there are other much more obviously rich people around who are brown. (Mexico & Sri Lanka.)
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Also, if they curse at or spit at me after offering them food when they have a sign that says "hungry".
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
If they accuse me of lying when I tell them I don't have any money. Obviously I can't give to them (because I'm not lying), but it's just the principle of the thing. (Happened in Brazil)
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Oh, yeah. At my previous job, I worked and lived in downtown Minneapolis, and walked to work. Same panhandlers every day, and one woman, who had said she was hungry, said "I can buy my own food" when I offered to go into the store across the street with her and buy her lunch. I said 'Not with my money."
Lyrhawn, if someone tried to put air in my tires, or do anything else to my car, without talking to me first, I would ask them what they were doing and tell them to stop regardless of if I thought they worked for the station or not. That's a really bad shtick.
Posted by Earendil18 (Member # 3180) on :
When it's a group of young kids, dressed to (non)conform. Not likely.
Was there such a thing as begging? Now it's a nonchalant "hey would X Y Z?"
No, maybe if you were on your knees or even sounded worried about your own well-being. Convince me you're in need. No, I'm not going to just hand you my leftovers you pleasantly plump person.
Our city has a had a noticeable increase in panhandlers in the last year alone. At least I'll be somewhat prepared for when I move to SF.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
If they can't even bother to work out their own schpiel all the way.
A guy came up to me at Rutgers one day asking for some money because his car ran out of gas and he needed to drive back home to Verona. I told him I'd give him ten bucks if he could tell me what route he was using to get there.
He had no idea how to get to Verona. In fact, he looked nervous for a second and just said, "Forget it man..." and moved on.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by quidscribis: If they're wearing clothes or shoes that cost 5 or 10 x or more as much as anything I've ever been able to afford. (beggars in downtown Vancouver wearing Doc Martens.)
Just as an aside, I was always able to wear good quality items even when living in my car, but they were all purchased at Goodwill or the Salvation Army after judicious combing through other people's things.
Not that your panhandlers always did the same, of course.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I don't give money when I don't have money.
Otherwise, I'm a soft sell.
It's just money.
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
I don't give money. Period. Or gift cards or vouchers or anything like that. Because here, at least (and I'm sure this isn't unique to Chicago) once they've gotten money out of you, they remember you and hound you worse the next day.
Sometimes I'll give food. I'll often keep a couple granola bars or those cheese-n-cracker handisnacks in my briefcase, and there are a couple particular individuals I've come to recognize on certain street corners who, if my lemming-like chase of the green light happens to take me past them, I'm likely to help. Or I'll save half my lunch when I go out and give the doggiebag to someone. And the ones I do help have always been very thankful and appreciative, which goes a long way towards my decision to keep helping them.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
There's only one guy on the streets here I'd ever give money to: The Rapping Bum.
That's right, there's a black guy that stands across the street from campus and raps all day. If you give him a dollar and tell him your name, he'll put your name into a rap for you. To me, that's entertaining enough to merit a dollar. At least he's doing something, not just begging.
I can't stand the people that go down the lines outside the Newport Music Hall when there are concerts. There have been people who just walk u[ and down the line, multiple times- I watched it when I was in line for AFI, back in February, when it was about five degrees outside. They asked each person multiple times. I'm sorry, but annoying me won't get me to give you money- it'll get me to call the police for harassment.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
I've found a strong "No" with a slightly murderous look in my eye works wonders in keeping the riff raff at bay. Of course, I've also given rides to hitchhikers so YMMV.
Posted by AutumnWind (Member # 9124) on :
For me to get angry all they have to do is approach. Coming from Queens, NY and working in Manhattan I've grown accustomed to panhandling encounters. I rarely have given money, but will offer food when I have it. I used to do this a lot when I waitressed on the Upper West Side.
One of the funniest ones was when my bf and I were in South Carolina and some guy stops us on the street. First he says he doesn't need our money and just wants to tell us that "God is good." I figure, I can spare a minute for that. Then the story changes to he works by digging horse manure, he has HIV (at that point he weakens his voice and adds a cough) and he will work for money..."Where is your car parked so I can wash it for you." 'Nuff said?
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
I generally give to Panhandlers who make me laugh or at least smile. I figure a laugh is worth something.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
For those of you who have posted here and are LDS, how do you reconcile what you have posted with Mosiah 4.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
There has to be something more than just begging.
When I lived in the UK and Ireland, the streets were loaded with buskers. They'd play instruments, perform tricks, etc. One guy just balanced upside down with his head in a bucket, with a sign that read "If this made you laugh or smile, please toss a coin." Others sold the Big Issues, which was a thin magazine written and sold by homeless people on street corners.
I saw very few people just ask for money.
In the US, my attitude is that you have to be working for your money. If you're playing an instrument, I'll toss you some change. If you're singing, or dancing, or you've come up with a really good story to tell, I'll toss something your way.
I'm not down with people just sitting with a cup out, though, or coming up to you while you're in your car.
As a side note, I'm not down with people forcing their services on you, either. You want to stand outside a supermarket and offer to take groceries to someone's car? Fine. You want to spray crap on my windshield and wipe it with a dirty rag without me asking? Back off, jack.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I never give money just because I'm female, and it makes me nervous to be approached by strange men while I'm stuck pumping gas. They always come up to me at the gas station. A lot of times, it's at night.
-pH
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Maybe panhandlers are just different in Hong Kong, but just about ALL of them either perform a musical instrument or are unable to work.
I always gave loose change in my pockets to panhandlers especially if they were missing a limb, there was one case where the man had no arms or legs, he just lay there on his stomach hitting his head lightly on the sidewalk.
My father had a specific beggar that he had taken the time to befriend and every year at Chinese New Year would give the man a substantial sum of money in a hong bao (licee packet) One year my dad gave him the traditional hong bao and upon walking away saw another begger run over and try to violently steal it from him, my dad came back and assisted his friend but still.
The hardest thing in the world for me however was to go to a poor district in southern China and not be able to give ANYBODY any money. They live in such abject poverty, it was such a sharp contrast to my own upbringing. But the moment you give a single person anything a huge crowd of people flock over and ask for money as well, how do you say no when you could say yes to the first person? The most touching thing that happened to me on that trip was a very old woman tapped me on the back and handed me my wallet saying, "You dropped this." All my money was in it, and not a dollar was missing, I tried to offer her money for the kindness but she said, "I've taken care of myself for 80 years, I'll take your money if you manage the same feat."
Occasionally in Beijing poor mothers will train their children to run up and hug your legs saying, "Uncle uncle, I love you, could you spare some change?" They often WILL NOT let go until some money comes their way.
My friend told me about a woman with a screaming baby who went from person to person begging for money. He noted that the baby suddenly stopped crying whereupon the mother slapped her baby on the cheeks to get it to start crying again.
I'm with Scott, I'm an easy sale, I've seen so much poverty I feel wrong not sparing some of my money, of which I've got plenty, to alleviate some of their suffering. If I don't give money to somebody it's because there are MANY beggars around or I don't have any money on me, which is often the case nowadays. I would offer to buy somebody food however if they asked it of me and I had nowhere I really needed to be.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
There was an expose done in a Vancouver newspaper years ago that showed that a lot of the beggars earned hundreds of dollars in a few hours of begging and were not, in fact, homeless. They just didn't feel like working a standard job, especially when they would typically earn much less than they could get in begging.
Similar investigations have proved similar things here, except not the earning several hundreds of dollars in a few hours. Many beggars here are transported via van to their begging spots, and are driven home at the end of the day. They rent children, usually babies but older children if the child is obviously disfigured or deformed, by the day to increase their take. The head honcho takes a cut of their earnings, and that head honcho gives a take of his earnings to the local organized crime person above his head, and so on.
Since I am not trained to recognize who is authentically in need and who is scamming, I give my money to recognized charities who are. It's not perfect, but it's better than me giving money to criminals and others who are unwilling to earn their living honestly.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
I always buy from the Spare Change Newspaper (Boston-based homeless paper) guys. a buck for every bi-weekly issue, and 75 cents goes directly to the vendor.
-Bok
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
Ooooh, my personal favorite was in Vancouver a few weeks ago for a friend's bachelor party, when two (not one, but two! a tag team!) bums started shouting racial epithets at our very mixed race group ("ching chong, you mother****, hiyaaaaaaaaah!" etc.). As we were passing them: "...got any change? Yeah, didn't think so, ****ers, go back to your own god**** country."
So, of course, I held up my wad of large bills, fanned it out and flicked them both off, with accompanying laughter.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I generally give if: A)there is no implication of threat B)the story isn't obviously false C)the beggar isn't approaching me on my own property. and D)I have money on me.
[Edit--Note--I generally don't carry cash while mowing my lawn. If you interrupt me while I'm mowing there is no chance that I'm going to give you money. Even if you plaintively tell me that you feel sad that you didn't get a birthday present. Two months ago.]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:it's better than me giving money to criminals and others who are unwilling to earn their living honestly.
For me, since I can't recognize the criminals from the truly needy, I do the opposite. I give whenever I can, to whoever asks.
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
quote: 2. Sporadically use a wheelchair. Dude, you were standing last week, in the chair the week before, and standing the week before that, rinse and repeat. Bonus points for sprawling in the chair like it's a lawnchair in your backyard and you just wanted to be comfortable on the corner. Double bonus points for three or four people rotating through the same chair.
A few years ago, a guy had a scam like that near where I work, according to the town paper. No wheelchair, but faked walking like he had cerebral palsy. A cop stopped him and said he'd seen him the other day walking just fine. The panhandler mouthed off -- saying he took home more in a week than the cop took home in a month. At that point, he was arrested.
Personally, I won't give money to people begging in wheelchairs - ever. And it's a personal prejudice.
For some reason, a depressingly large portion of the public gets the idea that *any* wheelchair user holding a cup of liquid, sitting on a sidewalk, in a park, etc. - is a panhandler. Most wheelchair users I know have had their drinks ruined by people dropping change in their cups (and it's never enough to replace the drink).
It's not the fault of the chair users who panhandle that some of the public can't resist generalizing the "crip as beggar" image, but I refuse to support it.
A couple of years ago, at the Blues Festival, Diane had to demand that a guy in a wheelchair begging get ejected. All panhandlers were relegated to spaces outside the festival, but the cops were making an exception for this young, well-fed guy in a fairly new motorized wheelchair. She demanded that either they let all the other panhandlers in or send him out to join them.
This wasn't just a snit - lots of families attend the Blues Festival. Many kids with disabilities were there. What message did they and their families get when the *only* begging allowed within the festival was a guy in a wheelchair?
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
I will also give some money for food. I had that happen to me in Boulder several weeks ago. I got the guy a sandwich, even though he decided that meant putting everything on the thing, including the extra cost stuff.
But then he also wanted money to get to Denver, I didn't feel comfortable with that since I had no way of knowing whether he was actually going to use the money for a bus. It didn't help that he acted/was drunk at 11AM on a weekday.
Glad I could get him some food though. Hope he made it home.
-Bok
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
I never, ever carry cash, so I never give to panhandlers.
However, Matt does - both carry cash and give it to people. I think it's sweet and I like what it says about him; I like it. Except the time he was on his way to buy me flowers and gave it to the panhandler instead. Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I've offered numerous times to buy food for people asking for money for lunch as I enter McDonald's, saying I don't have cash to spare but will put the lunch on my credit card. No one has ever taken me up on it. *shrug*
quote:
quote:Originally posted by Scott R:
quote:it's better than me giving money to criminals and others who are unwilling to earn their living honestly.
For me, since I can't recognize the criminals from the truly needy, I do the opposite. I give whenever I can, to whoever asks.
Quid described a process whereby she can more reliably differentiate between the two.
If the charities are chosen well, her donations are likely far more effective dollar-for-dollar than yours are.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: For those of you who have posted here and are LDS, how do you reconcile what you have posted with Mosiah 4.
There are better ways to request money for a bus ticket than running towards someone on a dark parking lot and shouting.
Doing it that way is scary and threatening because there -are- people who do bad things in the world, and I -know- King Benjamin never said anything about throwing caution to the wind.
If someone approaches me quietly, calmly, and nicely...then yes, if I have actual money to give, I will spare it.
Otherwise, I've been hurt and robbed before in situations like this. If someone is acting aggressive instead of peaceful, then I'm going to get out of there.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:Quid described a process whereby she can more reliably differentiate between the two.
If the charities are chosen well, her donations are likely far more effective dollar-for-dollar than yours are.
While I'd *like* for the money to be used well, in a socially conscious fasion, that's not the deciding factor of why I give.
Just to make it clear-- I'm not criticizing quid, or anyone else's tendencies. They've got their reasons for them, and I've got mine.
quote: For those of you who have posted here and are LDS, how do you reconcile what you have posted with Mosiah 4.
Here's (IMO, the pertinent parts of) Mosiah 4, for you non-Mo's.
quote:16 And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish. 17 Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just— 18 But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God. 19 For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind? 20 And behold, even at this time, ye have been calling on his name, and begging for a remission of your sins. And has he suffered that ye have begged in vain? Nay; he has poured out his Spirit upon you, and has caused that your hearts should be filled with joy, and has caused that your mouths should be stopped that ye could not find utterance, so exceedingly great was your joy. 21 And now, if God, who has created you, on whom you are dependent for your lives and for all that ye have and are, doth grant unto you whatsoever ye ask that is right, in faith, believing that ye shall receive, O then, how ye ought to impart of the substance that ye have one to another. 22 And if ye judge the man who putteth up his petition to you for your substance that he perish not, and condemn him, how much more just will be your condemnation for withholding your substance, which doth not belong to you but to God, to whom also your life belongeth; and yet ye put up no petition, nor repent of the thing which thou hast done. 23 I say unto you, wo be unto that man, for his substance shall perish with him; and now, I say these things unto those who are rich as pertaining to the things of this world. 24 And again, I say unto the poor, ye who have not and yet have sufficient, that ye remain from day to day; I mean all you who deny the beggar, because ye have not; I would that ye say in your hearts that: I give not because I have not, but if I had I would give. 25 And now, if ye say this in your hearts ye remain guiltless, otherwise ye are condemned; and your condemnation is just for ye covet that which ye have not received. 26 And now, for the sake of these things which I have spoken unto you—that is, for the sake of retaining a remission of your sins from day to day, that ye may walk guiltless before God—I would that ye should impart of your substance to the poor, every man according to that which he hath, such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and administering to their relief, both spiritually and temporally, according to their wants.
I act the way I do because of my understanding of this scripture.
I bet quid and the other Mo's feel they're doing right, too. And far be it from me to say they're not.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
I'm going to refer to myself as a non-Mo from now on.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Also, this is probably the only thing Rabbit and I actually agree on.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
I'm one of the people who offers food, but always has that offer declined. The first time I tried it, I was in college. I was carrying a bag of chick-fil-a food back to someplace with a friend, and a guy approached us for money for food. I said, "Well, I don't carry cash, but here's my lunch; you can have the fries." He said he didn't want to take my food and quickly walked away.
Otherwise, I don't carry cash. *shrug*
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
I have offered to buy people lunch and been taken up on it.
And of course I give people food and financial assistance regularly as part of my job. Generally I write the check to the landlord or utility company or pharmacy or motel. Once in awhile I've given someone cash.
And once I went to the store with a woman and bought her a bra (she needed to look more "professional" for a job interview and the thrift store didn't have anything in her size. As someone who has trouble finding that particular type of garment in my size, I sympathized.)
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
There's a guy that sits across the street from a local Wendy's with a sign that says "Hungry, please help. Double cheeseburger and diet Coke, please."
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
I do know from experience that some of the people out there really do want food. Sometimes they stand out by their obvious discomfort with what they're doing (which can also be faked by a very good pro).
One time when I lived in Denver, I came out of the grocery store with a bag of groceries. I was approached by a Latino man who didn't quite meet my eyes and stumbling explained he and his family had just gotten to town and wouldn't hook up with family for two days. They were all hungry. (This guy looked very tired and ashamed of having to ask.)
I took out a loaf of bread, a pound of bologna and a large bottle of juice (this was most of what I had in my bag). His eyes went wide and thanked me - he than ran excitedly to the parking lot where a woman was standing with a kid (I hadn't noticed them). When she saw what he was carrying, she burst into tears - the relieved kind.
There are plenty of scammers, but also plenty of hungry, hurting people.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
I do not give to beggars.
Most of them seem able bodied and if I have to work, why don't they? McDonald's is always hiring and if a new immigrant from Mexico can get cleaned up and show up for work then how hard can it be for a native who speaks english to do it?
If he makes more from begging than he could from honest work then people are giving TOO MUCH.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: I do not give to beggars.
Most of them seem able bodied and if I have to work, why don't they? McDonald's is always hiring and if a new immigrant from Mexico can get cleaned up and show up for work then how hard can it be for a native who speaks english to do it?
If he makes more from begging than he could from honest work then people are giving TOO MUCH.
What if the panhandler was not able bodied? What if the person IS trying desperately to find a job but perfectly normal circumstances have thus far prevented him from achieving that goal? People often find hunger LONG before they find a job.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
On a more positive note, I ran into a guy begging right outside the door to my house (my house was the only non-apartment residential building in a busy, mostly commercial area). I went out for a smoke and told him he couldn't do that on our porch, but he was welcome to sit on the grass of the lawn. It was a beautiful day and we started chatting about random crap and I ended up bringing my guitar out to the porch. We sat around and sang and people gave more money because, frankly, we sounded pretty damn good. We made so much that he offered me half, which I used to buy us a zesty pizza. Hours and hours later, he took off to go get some sleep. I never saw him again.
Posted by Seatarsprayan (Member # 7634) on :
I was approached by a guy once asking for money, I told him I was out of work and he gave me a dollar.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
That used to happen all the time in college. I'd get panhandled and I'd laugh a little and tell them I'm in college and they'd leave me alone, or I'd show them the handful of change I was gonna use to by a box a Family Value Mac & Cheese with.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:McDonald's is always hiring and if a new immigrant from Mexico can get cleaned up and show up for work then how hard can it be for a native who speaks english to do it?
Some people would rather hire an immigrant from Mexico than an American with a criminal record, or on the flip side, one they consider over-qualified.
I don't give to beggars because of drugs. I hate the drugs, and I can't support that habit. Now I understand that if you don't have anything else to look forward to except another day of begging, the drugs make all the stress of living go away and there really isn't a compelling reason not to get high, but I can't stand the thought of the money going to drugs.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
The beggars in Italy were crazy. They would kneel on the sidewalk, forehead touching the ground, and just pray quietly in a language I didn't understand. In the sun, in summer. For hours. I watched a guy once whilst I had a looong lunch, then felt bad enough to give him a couple euro. The only other time I gave money was to a young mother with her infant.
On the trains there were young kids you would run up to your seat with an accordion, and just mash on it until you gave them money or convinced them you wouldn't. Any attention only prolonged the process.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:I have offered to buy people lunch and been taken up on it.
quote:I do know from experience that some of the people out there really do want food. Sometimes they stand out by their obvious discomfort with what they're doing (which can also be faked by a very good pro).
I don't doubt it. I suspect a large part of it has to do with where I was at those times.
As someone who has had a relative buy drugs with pan-handled money, I do fear that I will be helping support a drug habit.
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
These days, I tend to keep a granola bar or a food coupon or two in my car.
I had acquaintance relationships with a couple of panhandlers while I lived in Seattle, one of whom seemed sincere and grateful, the other one of whom sadly became a persistant nuisance. And I know *exactly* the person in front of Safeway that eros referred to, though I never saw him climb into the car mentioned. Oh well. At least he's polite. (Is it wrong to prefer a polite low-level con artist to an aggressive panhandler with real need?)
I bought dinner for a person with a sign saying they needed food recently just as someone else showed up with the same idea. It's nice to be reminded that compassion hasn't vanished from the world.
One of my proudest moments has been giving bus fare to someone trying to hitchike in a questionable neighborhood.
I almost always give a dollar or some change to street musicians if I have it, so long as they aren't god-awful.
Obviously, you take things as they come. Sometimes I have to double back to give something after some consideration. Sometimes, it just doesn't feel safe to reveal the possession of anything of value.
I think occasionally I have to say "yes, this person might be lying... But I do this because I will feel right by myself if I do, and because I cannot live my life in constant suspicion."
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:1. Smoke. You're holding a sign that says "Hungry, please help, GOD BLESS," but you've got money for cigarettes? Guess you don't need any of mine.
One thing to keep in mind, if seeing a homeless person smoking plays an active part in your decision to help them, is that homeless who smoke are constantly bumming cigarettes. Even if I have no change (which is almost always), I'm generally willing to part with a cigarette.
quote: And I know *exactly* the person in front of Safeway that erso referred to
"Reeeeeal change? Have a good night, you!"
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
I simply don't carry cash with me. Not because of beggars (whom I only encounter when I go downtown, which is rare), but because I spend more when I carry cash (and then can't account for it).
Posted by porcelain girl (Member # 1080) on :
This guy is friends with one of my chick friends. His whole site is full of really interesting ideas and observations, many dealing with social problems.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
quote:One thing to keep in mind, if seeing a homeless person smoking plays an active part in your decision to help them, is that homeless who smoke are constantly bumming cigarettes. Even if I have no change (which is almost always), I'm generally willing to part with a cigarette.
Very true.
Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
I do not give my to panhandlers when:
1. They are using the gimmick of "why lie? it's for beer!" or other variants.
2. They are aggressive and/or scary.
In my college-town of Eugene, OR, there's a guy who is kind of a legend on campus. You see, he stands in front of the university book store and sells 'joke books'. I've never bought one nor seen the contents of one, so I have no idea whether they are actually worth it to buy. All I know is that this guy (a somewhat overweight old hippie with long grey hair and beard and tie-died shirt) is really aggressive. "Do you want to hear the world's funniest joke?" The strange thing is, panhandling in Eugene is strictly against the law. This guy operates out of an old newspaper selling box (it's where he locks up his jokebooks when he's not around) that is less than a block from the local police station. Odd.... Anyway, rumor has it that this guy, who's named Frog, by the way, comes to all of the UO football and basketball games, often times armed with a large amount of alcoholic beverage. Chances are, I won't be supporting his quasi-business.
On the other hand, I saw a panhandler on a cold December day on a street corner wearing clothes that were altogether too thin for that kind of weather. I had a wool blanket in the back of my car that I gave to him, and he seemed quite pleased with it. In the future, I even saw him using it, so I know that it was genuinely valued.
Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
I HATE the school organizations that panhandle. I understand that your soccer team needs money, but try an actual fundraising activity- like a carwash. If my little girl someday joined a team and standing on the street in team uniform was their fundraiser, I would forbid her from going.
I also refused to give money to the people who sat outside Reliant stadium with a sign "Katrina took everything from me, please help." The entire stadium was full of people in that same situation. I did contribute money and time though to help the masses in the stadium. Other than that, I decide based on cash and convenience for panhandlers. I contribute to other causes though. I have offered people food, but been refused.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
Oooh, that's a good one. Don't panhandle on the same two blocks you've been on for years and claim you're a Katrina victim. Practically every homeless person in Houston was claiming Katrina victim for a while.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by vonk: Oooh, that's a good one. Don't panhandle on the same two blocks you've been on for years and claim you're a Katrina victim. Practically every homeless person in Houston was claiming Katrina victim for a while.
Back when I worked at an eBay consignment store, we'd get questions from bidders about whether we could donate the items because they were Katrina victims. Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Scott, I think that is a wonderful attitude. We "non-mo" Christians have Scripture that addresses the issue as well:
quote:Luke 6:30 "Give to everyone who asks of you, and whoever takes away what is yours, do not demand it back.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quote:I HATE the school organizations that panhandle. I understand that your soccer team needs money, but try an actual fundraising activity- like a carwash. If my little girl someday joined a team and standing on the street in team uniform was their fundraiser, I would forbid her from going.
I absolutely forbid my kids from participating in these things as well. I tell the organizers that I will write a check for her portion of the proceeds directly to the organization, but I WILL NOT have my daughter out by street corners begging from strangers.
I never give to those either.
My charitable giving is through my church, exclusively because, as a voting member, I have a say in how it's spent and I know it's going to worthy causes. I'm another one that doesn't carry cash on most occasions. I do however, like the idea of keeping granola bars or something in my purse. That's a good idea, and it might help someone who is truly hungry, for a little while anyway.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
My husband and I generally give when asked because we can't know who has a real need and who doesn't, and it gives us a good feeling to give, anyway. So, it's really just selfish.
Now, I usually don't carry cash, but one night I was. We were in a 24-hour grocery store, and it was about 3am. We were at the self check-out and I went back to get some bananas so I was separated from my husband. This woman walking with a cane approached me and asked me for a couple of dollars because she was short. I gave it to her, but I made the mistake of letting her see the inside of my wallet. There wasn't a lot of money, but I had several more dollars.
We finished our shopping, and I saw her by the ice cream display. By the time we had checked out, she was there ready to check out behind us and she had the nerve to ask me for yet another dollar--she was buying ice cream cones and brand name Oreo ice cream--not even the generic stuff. *sigh* I gave it to her, but I wondered what the freaking emergency was that she had to beg for her late night craving for ice cream. I wish now that I had refused--let her go back and get the generic cookies and cream. Oh well.
It's hard for me to keep that sense of optimism in giving without worrying how they'll use it later. In fact, I think next time I'll ask a few more questions or just ignore outright. I know it was only $3, but it annoys me to this day. She didn't even try to hide it.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
When I was in Toronto, there were a few panhandlers in my neighbourhood. One deliberately tripped my roommate when she didn't have change. One would swear at me every time I said "I don't carry cash" (and I honestly didn't). One would ask for bus money, but by the third or fourth time I ran into him, I was getting suspicious.
But there were some genuinely hungry, lonely people. One of them was Stan. I met him outside the 7-11 on my way home around midnight, and it was a very cold night so I asked him if he'd like a coffee or something to eat. He said he just wanted a small hot chocolate, but I bought him a bit more than that. He was so startled. Every time I saw him after that, I would pick him up a hot chocolate and a bag of fritos, and eventually we would talk a little. He was a nice guy. I was glad to see it when he and his sleeping bag made it through the winter.
I got approached a lot for money, and it would really break my heart. I'm not a mormon, but I always have the same sort of verses ringing through my head. "Whatever you did to the least of my brothers..." comes to mind. When I am asked for an accounting of my life, I'm not going to be asked if I supported a drunk. I'm going to be asked what *I* did. What the drunk does is a totally different matter.
When I had money, I would go to Tim Hortons and buy gift certificates. Timmy's is still one of the few places that let you buy gift certificates in very small denominations (5-packs of $1 certificates). When I was asked for money, I would offer a pack of those instead. Most of the time people took them, but sometimes I was turned down. Those people I feel no guilt over not helping.
If you've kicked my roommate, or you're standing around with ludicruously expensive clothes and drinking a gatorade, I probably won't give anything to you. If you swear at me, nothing doing. But if you honestly appear to be in need, I may be a really soft touch. I can't help it.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Eh, as for me, I usually give to the guys if I've got some spare bills at hand, even if I'm reasonably sure it's a scam. Particularly if I can tell they're homeless (and aside from The Man with the Twisted Lip, it's usually pretty easy to tell). Honestly, it's not because I suspect some spare change will help in any substantive way, but because homelessness is a miserable existence, and I'm incapable of alleviating that when I see them in any meaningful way, so I throw a...well, I dunno. Like giving candy to a kid who skinned his knee, I suppose, in terms of effectiveness.
And if they're going to use that money to buy some drugs...well then, I contributed a couple of bucks to the 'Stop that Guy from Robbing Someone' fund.
Then again, I'm a soft touch. I've also picked up hitchhikers.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
This may be hypocritical but I just do not pick up hitchhikers. I feel the potential risk outweighs the benefit they could gain from me picking them up.
But that applies to folks walking down the street with their thumb out, if somebody was was waving the arms distressfully I'd likely stop to see what all the hub bub was about.
I still am not sure if that is the correct attitude to have however.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
My rule of thumb for hitchhikers:
-If they have a sign and the destination is on my route, -and if they have baggage.
If someone is hitchhiking without a backpack and their thumb out, there's no way I'm picking them up.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Yeah, people who swear at me (or others) lose any chance to convince me that I should help them.
But if I do have change (or a spare dollar), they will get it if I am asked politely and don't feel threatened (I usually have my babies with me, you threaten my babies and you get nothing from me.)
And I have been known to approach homeless people sitting in Burger King or Jack in the Box, slowly sipping a drink to get out of the heat (or cold) and ask if they'd like a hamburger or a chicken sandwich or something.
I don't do hitchhikers because 1) there's never room in the car 'cause of all the carseats and 2) wouldn't do it with kids in the car (which there invariably are.)
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
In Jerusalem, near the Wailing Wall, there are incredible amounts of beggars. They are very aggressive and talented in their art. I realized the best way was to pretend not to speak English so they couldn't latch on to anything...
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
I'd never pick up a hitchhiker. Simply not worth the risk.
I have occasionally accepted offers of rides when I was walking to get gas after running out. I probably shouldn't do that. They were just so nice.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by Javert Hugo: I'd never pick up a hitchhiker. Simply not worth the risk.
I have occasionally accepted offers of rides when I was walking to get gas after running out. I probably shouldn't do that. They were just so nice.
Yeah, I only accept rides from folks I know. If I was stranded I would call a friend or AAA!
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
One time, I did turn down all the men who offered. However, it was Sunday, and one woman saw me walking on her way home from church. She drove the person home she was riding with and came back to see if I still needed help. I did, and she even tried to pay for my gas. She was so incredibly sweet. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by vonk: My rule of thumb for hitchhikers:
::groan::
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by Javert Hugo: One time, I did turn down all the men who offered. However, it was Sunday, and one woman saw me walking on her way home from church. She drove the person home she was riding with and came back to see if I still needed help. I did, and she even tried to pay for my gas. She was so incredibly sweet.
Well, that's not so bad.
I remember when our car broke down on the freeway once and my mom accepted a ride-- but made sure to point out to us that the lady we got a ride with was a nun. She told us to always be VERY careful about accepting rides from people we don't know, and that our rule of thumb should be "don't." But there are exceptions. Posted by Raventhief (Member # 9002) on :
<rant> Gah! Street performing is NOT one step above begging! In most countries it's a recognized profession, and absolutely EVERY part of the entertainment industry has its roots in street performing or busking. It bugs me when people talk about it this way. YES, I street perform. I'm not poor, I'm not homeless, I do pretty well. Yes, I know that I could get other jobs. Wait, no, I HAVE other jobs. Street performing is an excellent way to supplement my income and gosh darn it all, it's FUN. It is NOT begging. I perform, I make people smile and laugh, they pay me for it. Just because we didn't agree on a price up front and you aren't sitting in a dark room somewhere does NOT make it less respectable than "theater". And anybody who thinks it does can go do something unsavory with a nearby furry animal. </rant>
*pant* *pant* *pant*
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
Oh, I once accepted a "need to refill gas tank" ride from a disreputable-looking man in a swanky SUV. I clearly have no principles and am very happy with that.
Posted by Artemisia Tridentata (Member # 8746) on :
We once picked up a hitchhiker on the reservation. He had a long pony tail, and thin beard and no luggage. I had the kids with me, but we had one seat free in the van. My (then) teenage son spent the ride sparing with him about local politics and religion. That winter, we saw him again. He was a regular HS Basketball Referee in our league. I know my son got at least a couple of "overlooks" that season.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by Javert Hugo: Oh, I once accepted a "need to refill gas tank" ride from a disreputable-looking man in a swanky SUV. I clearly have no principles and am very happy with that.
This is why I get scared for you. Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
What does George Carlin say about the rules of the road and payment for hitchhiking in Jay & Silent Bob Strike Back?
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I'm not suggesting that statistically, a woman is just as likely to be victimized by a man as opposed to vice versa in this sort of situation...but truthfully, I believe the chances are still pretty low.
I've picked up hitchhikers...oh, I guess something close to half a dozen times in my life, and given some money to panhandlers quite a few times more than that, and have never once been attacked. Granted, a long, careful, scrutinizing look coupled with listening to my instincts went into play in all of those-and there have been times I haven't helped because there was almost a palpable bad vibe.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I "hitchhike" every day to work. Except, we call it "slugging."
That's...amazing.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
It really is.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
It's fairly neat. I do a lot of my writing in the back seat of someone else's car. I save on gas. I get home faster. I save wear on my own car. I help not pollute the environment.
The cost is standing outside in sometimes not pleasant weather, and maybe not getting a comfortable seat all the time. It was a no-brainer decision to start slugging.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Every time you mention slugging, Scott, it blows my mind a little more. I mean, it makes sense for everyone involved, but . . .
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Slugging is... interesting.
Here, as Fahim has explained to me, we could buy rice & curry packets for people begging for food, but the recipient then usually turns around and sells the food packet back to the vendor and takes the money in exchange. So no better than giving change.
Beggers here are also extremely aggressive. They latch on to me, they follow me sometimes for hundreds of feet, they do not take no for an answer, they yell in my ear or keep shaking their coin jar over and over, and they do not give up. They do, however, leave obviously rich Sri Lankans alone out of respect for them, or so I'm told.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Rivka--
But what?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
This looks like a better way to ask for money.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
*handles pan*
No, this is not an Onanism post.
OK, yes it is.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: I "hitchhike" every day to work. Except, we call it "slugging."
That's awesome!
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: This looks like a better way to ask for money.
Also awesome.
Posted by Luet13 (Member # 9274) on :
While attending Columbia College Chicago, I was repeatedly approached by a man known as 'The Toad.' Initially I found him funny because he would bow, talk in a phony English accent, and say things like, "Greetings my lovely lady. I am the ugliest toad that ever walked this earth." Then he would tell stories about his crazy girlfriend or wife or whatever. I enjoyed his shpiel until a certain day.
He often told me I was beautiful and I would smile, sometimes give him change, and go my merry way. One day I walked out of the music department and he greeted me by saying, "You are one fine spring chicken!" I replied, "What? Did you just call me a spring chicken?" He said, "Yeah, you a fine cut of meat." That ended our civil relationship and from then on no money and no conversation from me.
I can't really explain why that changed my attitude towards him. I guess I was offended a bit, and it made me nervous. Chicago beggars can be extremely aggresive, and like Goody said, if you give once, they'll find you again. And again. And again. I used to give money to a guy seven years ago and he still asks me for money.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: Rivka--
But what?
But . . .
strangers! In my car! They could be crazy people!
Or worse yet, Hatrackers!!
mph, that's very Posted by AutumnWind (Member # 9124) on :
quote: By the time we had checked out, she was there ready to check out behind us and she had the nerve to ask me for yet another dollar--she was buying ice cream cones and brand name Oreo ice cream--not even the generic stuff. *sigh* I gave it to her, but I wondered what the freaking emergency was that she had to beg for her late night craving for ice cream. I wish now that I had refused--let her go back and get the generic cookies and cream. Oh well.
My thought is why give her the extra dollar. If you already spared what you wanted/could/needed to spare, why not say I'm sorry but I gave you what I could. It is ok to say no. What bothers me is that when you have already gone out of your way to do something nice and then you're guilted into even more. That's just not acceptable.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:strangers! In my car! They could be crazy people!
Well... I don't drive. I ride. So they're not in my car, I'm in theirs.
I did have some safety concerns, starting out. But I've got a cell phone, and both my starting point and destination point are very well defined. I suppose someone COULD do something nefarious, but I think the randomness and atmosphere of slugging kind of dissuades the possibility.
It's not for everyone, but it really has been a boon for us.
quote:Or worse yet, Hatrackers!!
Yeah, that'd be...very odd. I'd probably be all fidgety and nervous and hyper-tense. I'd probably have to swear off slugging forever, just to avoid meeting anyone again...
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
The rubbish dude is great. Thanks for linking, mph.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
I've seen the trash guy around, but I had no idea he was making such a splash. Then I stumbled across an editorial yesterday where the author speculated about making it more widespread. The verdict, after going out and recruiting a few street people? They were keen on it, or at least willing to give it a try, but the unionised city workers would probably object to it being so widespread. Ironic, in a city where the mayor declared a 2-hour city-wide trash clean-up, and encouraged everyone in the city to stop what they were doing and pitch in.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
I would totally give that guy money.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
The thing I've found interesting about slugging in the DC area is what an excellent track record it has. I don't know that any official statistics have been kept but in this case its perception and statistical safety that matter. I expect that even one highly publicized car jacking or kidnapping associated with the slug lines would be enough to shut the system down. In fact several of the websites on slugging acknowledge this and others note that not one single crime has been associated with the slug lines. The slug line demonstrate that hitchhiking isn't inherently dangerous and suggests that the widespread (at least in America) fear of it is overblown.
I've never picked up a hitchhiker when I was alone but I will when my husband is with me and we have room. I have hitchhiked myself on several different occasions. Once when we had a tire blow out on the Navajo reservation, once when I got stranded in the Salzkammergut due to a misleading bus schedule and numerous times associated with hikes. There are alot of places in the west even in the canyons just outside Salt Lake City where its common for people to begin a hike at one trail head, come out a different place and then hitch back to their cars. People seem to be more willing to pick up hikers trying to get back to their cars than they are to pick up generic hitchhikers.
Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
There were a bunch of beggars in Rome who got money by having a cute puppy. I guess people would feel bad for the dog and gave money so it wouldn't starve, but I always wondered what happened when the dogs got big and less cute.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
On the slugging track record, it goes back to at least 1989, so it's a good long record. It was already well established at that point, when my carpool used to pick up slugs if people didn't show up and we needed more to get on HOV.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by Luet13: He often told me I was beautiful and I would smile, sometimes give him change, and go my merry way. One day I walked out of the music department and he greeted me by saying, "You are one fine spring chicken!" I replied, "What? Did you just call me a spring chicken?" He said, "Yeah, you a fine cut of meat." That ended our civil relationship and from then on no money and no conversation from me.
I can't really explain why that changed my attitude towards him.
I think I understand why that changed your attitude. There can be a fine line between funny and playful and creepy. We rarely know exactly where the line is until someone crosses it and sets off our internal alarms. When he was calling you lovely and beautiful he was complimenting you in a harmless and playful way. But 'spring chicken' and 'cut of meat' were sufficiently objectifying or perhaps had too many sexual overtones to be insulting and perhaps a bit threatening.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I think slugging benefits from a certain atmosphere as well.
Bad drivers don't get slugs. There was a gentleman that used to pick up slugs at the Pentagon to go to down to Fredericksburg; he was a terribly reckless driver, and he got a reputation. Fredericksburg slugs passed the word around amongst themselves, and within a couple weeks, no one would take him up. So he started going to the Falmouth lots, and the same thing happened.
I haven't seen him drive through the slug lines in a while now.
Lots of slugs frequent the forum on slug-lines.com; they can get word around pretty quickly about drivers to avoid.
Someone could feasibly kidnap me on the way home, or on the way to work; but that could happen anywhere, I guess.
For me, the convenience of slugging has overcome the theoretical dangers of it.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
In the US so many of the homeless suffer from mental illness that I try very hard not to judge anyone on the streets harshly. I've heard many anecdotes about the cadillac driving beggars, but I strongly suspect they are myths and that most of the people pulling tricks like standing one day and sitting in a wheel chair the next are likely to suffer from some type of mental illness or deficiency.
In the US, if you suffer from serious psychological problems your chances of ending up in prison or living on the streets are frighteningly high. They are the lepers of our era which I find deeply tragic.
I try to give generously to homeless shelters, food kitchens and other charities that offer help to these people. I figure this money is likely of more benefit than the loose change I might put in a beggars cup. But I also give change to beggars if I have any available. If I were better organized, I'd remember to move some change out of my purse and into a pocket when I know I'll be walking in an area with panhandlers. I don't feel safe pulling out my wallet when there are beggars around.
I know there are some homeless people who are too paranoid to accept help from shelters and the like. I'd rather give my loose change to someone who didn't need it than fail to give to someone who really did. There aren't really that many beggars in the areas where I've lived and it would hardly break me to give them all my loose change.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
I have heard that as well - something 90% of the chronically homeless have deblitating mental issues. In the 80s there was a serious effort to get the mentally ill out of hospitals and on their own, but what happened in a lot of cases was that they were shoved out the door and left to fend for themselves.
I think about all the people that function only because of the medications, and it's not a big jump to imagine that if one were poor and sick, it's not a very long road to being homeless.
You know that saying "At least you have your health"? I think for me, it is more applicable to having your mind. Being mentally ill is probably my worst fear - I can handle anything in life, because I can trust myself. If I can't do what needs to be done myself, I know where to go for help. If that was taken away - if my brain was no longer trustworthy to myself - that's an absolute nightmare.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:I know there are some homeless people who are too paranoid to accept help from shelters and the like.
Rabbit, you are very right about that. Eve and I tracked down the group that fed Eve's brother in the months before he died. Their whole operation was to bring meals to homeless people on the streets, which meant they could reach the many that would not go to shelters or soup kitchens for any reason.
The whole issue of mental illness in this country is heartbreaking to me. I know there are many who can't get the treatment they need. There are also some - anecdotally, many - who end up on the street despite the willingness of their families to pay for treatment. Without involuntary commitment, I can't think of anything that would have saved Eve's brother. The whole family has beaten themselves up unmercifully about the right words they could have said to convince him to enter treatment. Perhaps such words existed, but it's not a failing to be unable to have discovered them.
So barring a revelation about the right way to convince him, forcing him seems the only alternative. And making involuntary commitment easier scares the willies out of me from a civil liberties perspective - it's far more abusable than the criminal justice system is.
You do well to remind people of the mental illness aspect of much homelessness. Part of the problem is an inherent discomfort with mental illness that I'm not willing too judge too harshly.I think it would be better if such discomfort did not exist, but I can understand where it comes from even while wishing it weren't there. Reminders like the one you gave are always good, though.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:I have hitchhiked myself on several different occasions. Once when we had a tire blow out on the Navajo reservation,
Can I just say that if you've gotta be stranded and hitchhike from necessity, the Navajo reservation is a good place to do it.
I had a good experience when we needed help at the Navajo reservation when we were on our honeymoon-- not hitchhiking, but a cool experience.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
I'd give money to the litter guy. He's doing something. He's working in a way that benefits everyone.
We have slugging out here but we don't call it that, we just call it Carpooling. There are lots of places, especially in the east bay, to pick up carpoolers to SF or SJ. Traffic here is possibly the worst in the nation so getting to use the carpool lane is a huge boon. Though things have gotten a lot better, traffic wise anyway, since the Dot-Bomb.
Still, I wouldn't do it. I'd never put myself in harms way like that.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
*nods*
Organizations like Dagonee mentions are very important, and participating in them can be very eye-opening.
I was a team leader and later on the board for a student organization that was very similar, fixing food that we would then bring to the homeless in downtown Saint Louis, after which we would go to a shelter and help them serve the food they had prepared.
The range of what it means to be homeless is astounding, but most of the persistent homeless (who are luckily the minority) have some sort of mental or physical health issue, frequently the former.
Posted by Artemisia Tridentata (Member # 8746) on :
quote:People seem to be more willing to pick up hikers trying to get back to their cars than they are to pick up generic hitchhikers.
I was driving to an Army Reserve school in Dublan CA, several years ago. It was early in the morning, Fathers Day and the family had gone to Grandma's for a vacation while I studied. I took the route over Tioga Pass and through Yosemite park, as I didn't have to be at school until mid-day. Just outside of Lee Vining I stopped for a large pack with a thumb sticking out. The hiker turned out to be a very attractive young lady who had attempted to hitchhike to San Francisco to see her Father, but had fallen short of the goal just outside of the park. I took her to Hayward where there is a BART station, and she was able to get to Dad's house on time. When I called my Bride to tell her I was safely at school, she asked how many times I had stopped to nap. I explained about the "Beautiful Blonde" traveling companion. She never did believe the story. Neither did the other solders at the school. However, it's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Posted by Wussy Actor (Member # 5937) on :
This scene from Sports Night (pretty much my favorite show ever and of course it was cancelled after two seasons, much like Studio 60. What do you people have against Aaron Sorkin?) basically spells out how I feel about giving to people.
Dan: (knocking on open door) Isaac, you got a second?
Isaac: Sure. What's on your mind?
Dan: (comes in and sighs) You make a lot of charitable donations, don't you?
Isaac: I try.
Dan: Who do you give your money to?
Isaac: I used to donate money to the Democratic Party.
Dan: Not anymore?
Isaac: Well, you get your heart broken enough times, you learn your lesson.
Dan: Who do you give your money to now?
Isaac: I give it here and there. There are plenty of good causes.
Dan: That's the problem.
Isaac: Hmmm. Danny, every morning I leave an acre and a half of the most beautiful property in New Canaan. I get on a train and come to work in a 54-story glass highrise. In between, I step across bodies to get here. (sits behind desk) Twenty, thirty, fifty of 'em a day. So, as I'm stepping over them, I reach into my pocket and give 'em whatever I've got.
Dan: You're not afraid they're gonna spend it on booze?
Isaac: I'm hoping they're gonna spend it on booze. Look, Danny, these people, most of them, it's not like they're one hot meal from turning it around. For most of them, the clock's pretty much run out. They'll be home soon enough. What's wrong with giving 'em a little Novocaine to get 'em through the night?
I hope posting this doesn't sick the intellectual property cops on my butt.
Posted by Wussy Actor (Member # 5937) on :
Plus the line about the democratic party cracks me up.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: Someone could feasibly kidnap me on the way home, or on the way to work; but that could happen anywhere, I guess.
For me, the convenience of slugging has overcome the theoretical dangers of it.
Being in someone's car gives them far more opportunity than being in my own, or walking down the street.
You're not a woman. I am a big girl (in both senses) and I can take care of myself. But I would be very wary about getting in a car driven by a man I do not know.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
I love that scripture that Scott quoted! I give to all panhandlers. I regard it as a superstition. If I always give to panhandlers, I won't ever have to BE a panhandler. It's my bargain with karma.
Same with waiters, and hotel housekeepers. I am a generous tipper to anyone who performs any sort of personal service for me. Also, I straighten up so the hotel housekeepers don't have so much to do. Somehow my mother instilled in me the understanding that your true worth as a person is more honestly reflected by what the people who serve you think of you than by what your bosses think. I try to be a grateful and sensitive servee. Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
I always remember the studies that have established the effectiveness of cigarette smoking as a (partial) self-medication for schizophrenia. It's cheap, can be bummed from other people, doesn't require paperwork or a regular prescription, and it helps with the psychosis.
Mental illness is hard, hard stuff.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese: I always remember the studies that have established the effectiveness of cigarette smoking as a (partial) self-medication for schizophrenia. It's cheap, can be bummed from other people, doesn't require paperwork or a regular prescription, and it helps with the psychosis.
Mental illness is hard, hard stuff.
I just edited a medical journal where one of the articles was schizophrenia and smoking. It said those with schizophrenia were something like 5 times more likely to be smoking (and chain smoking at that) then the average person in America.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Yes, indeed.
Of course, that doesn't mean that everyone who panhandles has mental illness (or schizophrenia in particular), or that those who do have it and smoke are purely doing it to self-medicate. I don't mean to imply anything of the kind.
What I do mean to say is that I am never sure what reasons a homeless and/or panhandling person has for smoking, and I hesitate to attribute it purely to recreation, given what has been established about its use in mental illness and the prevalence of such mental illness in this population.
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
Well, the scariest thing that ever happened to me was when I was like 20. My friend and I had gone to dinner, and it was dark when we got out. This guy came up to us with this sob story about not being able to afford a bus ride home. It was dark, and we had to cross the street to get to our car, so he was kinda freaking us out. Neither of us had any cash on us (or we probably would given it to him just to get him to GO AWAY), and we told him so. Then he pulls out a machine and says "Hey, I can take credit cards". At that point, we ran, and my friend pulled her pepper spray out of her purse while I unlocked the doors.
However, I generally DO feel sorry for homeless people. I like that here in San Antonio, alot of them don't just beg, but they sell papers at the intersection. At least it's an honest job, right? When I do have cash in the car, and it seems safe, I'll try to give it to them, but that's not often. What I do try to do is have bottled water in the car (also helps avoid paying for fast food drinks) and sometimes some sort of dried snack as well. I try to offer them a bottle of water and a snack. If they take it, I know they're sincere, and will probably do the same thing if I see them again. If they don't.... well, then I figure they really aren't in THAT big of need, and I avoid rolling down my windows at that intersection.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:I like that here in San Antonio, alot of them don't just beg, but they sell papers at the intersection. At least it's an honest job, right?
Not always. It's fairly common for someone to take all the newspapers out of a machine after paying for one, then selling the papers. Invest 35 cents, make several dollars.
I have no idea what percentage of people who do that are homeless or would otherwise be pan-handling.
Edit: wanted to add that CT's points about self-medicating are very well taken and important to keep in mind.
[ July 15, 2007, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
I like the guys that sell papers in the morning. I pretend they're Newsies and whenever I'm not watching they sing and dance. It must be such an exciting life. So I try to buy their pape's when I can.
Also, around here you can tell who's legit by the dingy Houston Chronicle aprons they wear. I guess they could steal them, but you gotta start trusting somewhere.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Rabbit, JH, and Dag make excellent points about mental illness and homelessness. I have a very close relative who is homeless and mentally ill. We tried to help, but couldn't really. We tried Baker Act-ing her, but on one occasion the state decided she wasn't a danger, and on another occasion they (the hospital) felt she was, but ultimately decided it wasn't worth the hassle of continuing to pursue commitment when her court-appointed lawyer got a couple of delays (sorry, I can't remember the legalese). It was a tragic and eye-opening situation.
I wish I had something of substance to add to this conversation, but all I have is my personal anecdote.
Some of you are nicer people than I am. I used to be more generous, but I kept having family members tell me it was stupid to give to pan-handlers. I resolve to be more generous.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
A couple of friends of mine are part of an organization that runs programs for the homeless.
My friends have made the point, which they say are backed up with fancy studies and everything, that giving money to beggars not only leads to a more negative outcome than donating the same money to shelters or programs (such as theirs *nudge* *nudge*), but it can be worse in terms of effect than not giving money at all.
My solution, when someone asks me for change, I decline and then donate the amount of the change I have in my pocket to my friends' program.
I have been known to offer people food (most take it) and I'll keep a public trans token on me for people who actually look like they've gotten stuck and need to get somewhere (I've had that happen to me and it really sucks).
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Squick, if you get a chance, could you find a link to some of those studies? I can't come to a firm conclusion on this myself, and additional info would be helpful.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
I'll ask them and see what they have.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Thanks!
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: My friends have made the point, which they say are backed up with fancy studies and everything, that giving money to beggars not only leads to a more negative outcome than donating the same money to shelters or programs (such as theirs *nudge* *nudge*), but it can be worse in terms of effect than not giving money at all.
Squicky, If you have a chance, I'd also be interested in looking at those studies. I'd like to see what kind of controls or comparisons they did. I'm concerned that such studies might have a built in bias because those who are homeless because of substance obuse or severe mental illness are less like to seek or accept help from such organizations. I also suspect that giving to a beggar who is mentally ill will likely have a different outcome than giving to one who is a heroin addict or one who is a teenage runaway.
With that said, I'm fully in favor of organizations that help the homeless and the poor and try to give generously to them. I'd simply like to know how solid the evidence is supporting the idea that giving to beggars is worse than not giving.
[ July 17, 2007, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
Posted by Wendybird (Member # 84) on :
I personally have decided when I have the spare change I give it. I'm not going to be judged on what they decide to do with the money only for what I decide to do with what God has given me. I have given food as well. I even made some Christmas treats one year and took them to the "regulars" on this one corner. I had a friend who gave a woman who was on the corner some clothes for her kids. Personally, I give what I can give and then let it go. What they use it for is on their heads. (I do also give to charities as well when I can)
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I basically agree up to a point. However, there are some reasons to make a judgment based on likely use.
For example, if one only has a certain amount to give, then giving it to someone who does not need it prevents giving to someone (or as much) who does need it.
More importantly are those instances where providing the money will enable self-destructive behavior. I haven't arrived at a solid conclusion about where responsibility lies in that situation, but if one has the means to tailor one's giving in a way that reduces self-destructive behavior, including means of discernment to allow that judgment to be made more reliably, those means ought to be considered. In that sense, I think we are responsible for how donations are used, because we are deciding how to use what God has given us.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Wendybird: I would also add that some of us give for reasons quite separate from whether or not we will be judged by a deity. In that case, it makes sense to at least have some idea as to whether one's donation is effective if only to efficiently allocate resources.
General: I will also add (although BlackBlade implied this on the first page) that outside of North America that child slavery and forced begging still exists. I myself suspect that I encountered this many times in Beijing and Shanghai in areas where many foreign/rich tourists go.
While this is probably not what Squick referred to, outside of North America one must be careful. In these cases, a donation may very well cause harm (directly) and (indirectly) subsidize an industry that profits by exploiting many.
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