[ May 29, 2007, 11:51 PM: Message edited by: Phanto ]
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
Is this really what America has become? Do people need their junk food fix THAT bad?
This is horrifying. And extremely disturbing. I think this story should be all over the news. Maybe not all of America is apathetic.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
Poor food usually equals poor behavior. Boy, if this doesn't prove the connection, I don't know what would.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
*shrug* Some evidence, maybe?
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Is this really what America has become?
Only if you think that America has become a huge cluster of livid, unrepresentative samples of attention-grabbing shocking behaviors.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
"Some evidence, maybe?"
You, for one.
My daughter also misbehaves a lot more when I let her eat crappy stuff.
I kind of thought sugar made kids hyperactive. You know, sudden rise of blood sugar, followed by sudden drop in blood sugar.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
People have been killing people for horrifingly inconsequential things ever since people got past the "inches from death by Nature" stage of our development.
People get killed for a pair of shoes, for five bucks, for looking at people cross-eyed, for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and any number of horrifingly trivial reasons.
I'm not saying it's not horrifying, but I am saying it's not new. It's not something America has "become". -------
quote:Poor food usually equals poor behavior. Boy, if this doesn't prove the connection, I don't know what would.
I honestly can't tell if you're being serious or not-I don't mean that in a snarky way, but it seems to me that a quick glance at the numbers of Americans who, say, eat at fast-food restaurants regularly compared to the number of Americans who are murderers shows that the "proof" you're talking about is, well, pretty darn stupid.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:Originally posted by steven: "Some evidence, maybe?"
You, for one.
So what's your excuse?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by steven: I kind of thought sugar made kids hyperactive.
Trouble is, studies have failed to verify this supposed link. And there have been a lot of studies!
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Here is a summary (from 1996, but the question was considered fairly well settled then): Hyperactivity: is candy causal? (Critical Review in Food Science Nutrition).
quote:...Parents and teachers alike attribute excessive motor activity and other disruptive behaviors to candy consumption. However, anecdotal observations of this kind need to be tested scientifically before conclusions can be drawn, and criteria for interpreting diet behavior studies must be rigorous. ... Feingold theorized that food additives (artificial colors and flavors) and natural salicylates caused hyperactivity in children and elimination of these components would result in dramatic improvement in behavior. Numerous double-blind studies of the Feingold hypothesis have led to the rejection of the idea that this elimination diet has any benefit beyond the normal placebo effect. ... Twelve double-blind, placebo-controlled studies of sugar challenges failed to provide any evidence that sugar ingestion leads to untoward behavior in children with Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder or in normal children. Likewise, none of the studies testing candy or chocolate found any negative effect of these foods on behavior.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Trouble is, studies have failed to verify this supposed link. And there have been a lot of studies!
Perhaps if there was a massively evident correlation between felony convictions and obesity, the notion could be credible at least on the surface!
Posted by Eduardo St. Elmo (Member # 9566) on :
quote:Perhaps if there was a massively evident correlation between felony convictions and obesity, the notion could be credible at least on the surface!
Such a correlation could also be explained by the logic that obese offenders would have more trouble staying out of reach of the long arm of the law. Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by steven: "Some evidence, maybe?"
You, for one.
My daughter also misbehaves a lot more when I let her eat crappy stuff.
I kind of thought sugar made kids hyperactive. You know, sudden rise of blood sugar, followed by sudden drop in blood sugar.
Raw shellfish = low brain activity and poor manners.
Read your own post for evidence. Or at least what passes for evidence for your rigorous standards. Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I was on the Feingold diet as a child, and while it didn't help me at all, it did seem to help my sister.
I guess I need to go buy a gun now, since the evidence is SO overwhelming.... Posted by the doctor (Member # 6789) on :
Not to return to the original topic, but if it was those little gold foil packets of chili sauce (really just spicy oil), I can totally understand wanting more. That's great stuff on practically everything.
I wouldn't harm another human being to get it, mind you, but I might be upset if I couldn't have as many as I thought I needed.
I put it on my Wendy's Double Cheeseburgers and it's wonderful.
Mind you, I usually wonder at why they hand out SO MANY of those packets when I only asked for one! I now specifically tell them "I only need one" so they don't dump 3 of them in there. Now I know why -- they have a limit of three, so they just hand them out in threes.
Hey Wendy's -- you should bottle that stuff and charge $5 for six ounces or something...
And you could market it as the sauce people would commit attempted murder in order to get. Of course, that assumes the manager survives his wounds.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
I wonder who funded that study, Sara?
I've heard a lot of anecdotal reports of child molesters and serial killers eating terrible diets. John Wayne Gacy was said to be addicted to candy, even up until his last few days of life.
I myself find that my mood, and, consequently, my interactions with other people, tend to be much more even, smooth, and calm when I'm eating a better diet.
I'm guessing there have to be at least a few mothers here who have seen the effects that a poor diet have on their child's behavior.
I honestly don't see why you folks don't have the courage of your convictions--feed yourselves and your kids nothing but white sugar for about 3 years.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
People, let's not turn this into "the steven show," okay? We know he's a flake; we don't need to drive the point home.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
I love the elephant story. My friend told me about it the other night and it cracked me up. That is the first naturally run toll road. The animals have learned capitalism! Your lives, or at least your fruit, are no longer safe!
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote: I honestly don't see why you folks don't have the courage of your convictions--feed yourselves and your kids nothing but white sugar for about 3 years.
Yeah! Also, if you think water isn't bad for you, perhaps you should try breathing it!
Posted by the doctor (Member # 6789) on :
Hmm...
There are many reasons for eating a healthy diet, but concerns about criminality is probably not among them.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
Proof isn't entirely the issue. People don't, and can't, live their lives entirely by science. Every time they try, you end up with eugenics/sterilization, or something similar. Did I really have to point that out? The opposite is also a giant sad mess--witness radical Islam. Somewhere in between is where we all survive.
It's not insane to look at Dr. Price's work and the diseases that modern people have and traditional groups DON'T, and make your diet accord with traditional diets as much as is practical. I might take it to an overly intense DEGREE. Might. However, I also am not on multiple medications. That says something. Lots of Hatrackers who trash me every time I bring all this up, in fact, ARE. Lots of my relatives are.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
steven, that probably says more about how you feel about medications than anything else.
---
The trouble with saying "but a lot of bad people eat a lot of candy" is that a lot of good people eat a lot of candy. There isn't a greater proportion of bad people eating candy than good people eating candy.
Haven't you seen college students and Mountain Dew, aka liquid candy?
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
"steven, that probably says more about how you feel about medications than anything else."
I have nothing against medications used for acute issues. I think it's less-than-perfectly-wise to use them as a way to combat the effects of a modern diet. It's stupid to take a medication every day for the rest of your life when you can change your diet instead. Why? Because many of these medications make it onto the market without sufficient testing, like Celebrex. Traditional diets are proven. A drug that's maybe 10 years old is not as proven, or safe, on average. yeah, I see that I come across as crazy. I also see that my teeth are in great shape and I can run up 6 flights of stairs without breathing hard, whenever I feel like it, without having to do regular exercise to keep that ability. That was not true on a poorer-quality diet.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
steven, thalidomide and viagra and the negative effects of cholesterol medications versus everything else? I think you focus on the incidental without any focus on proportion. Yes, small amount = bad. But large amount = good. If you like, I can list some. I can be exhaustive, though, because that other list is so freakin' big.
---
I agree with you that a good diet is a cornerstone of a healthy life. I'd add to that regular cardiovascular exercise, sufficient and restful sleep, and a healthy social support system. Doesn't mean it is everything, but I will agree that these are a good place for everyone to start.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
steven: Since we are going on anecdotal evidence, my grandmother is quite possibly the nicest and most caring woman in the world I have ever met. She'd feel bad if a dog had to be put down for biting her.
She eats a diet that consists of TONS of steak, roast beef, potatoes, corn, peas.
That and TONS of icecream/anything sugar.
Its incredible but her pancreas works just fine, and she is incredibly frail, she does not gain any weight.
There are simply far more factors that go into a person's behavior then just food.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
For what it's worth, I am currently on a diet of primarily fresh vegetables, small amounts of high quality meats, some complex high-fiber carbs, and virtually no processed sugar. I think I had 1/2 a candy bar this weekend, but other than that, it's rye crispbread for me. *grin
---
Edited to add: Oh, and lots of beans and lentils. Black beans, chickpeas, navy beans, pintos, romanos, on and on and on with the beans. Good thing my body adjusted quickly. *prim
[ May 30, 2007, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:I think I had 1/2 a candy bar this weekend, but other than that, it's rye crispbread for me. *grin
It was you who punched me in the face on Saturday, wasn't it?!
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
*laughing
No, my husband and I went to a movie together at 11:30am and then walked through a harbortown, letting the warm breezes dance around us as the kids flew kites and the old folks sat in the sun. It was absolutely lovely, and we are looking for a house there now.
No face-punching for me. Rather, standing at the edge of the world overlooking the ocean, tasting the first ripe raspberry of the local season, and dreaming of days to come.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Rather, standing at the edge of the world overlooking the ocean, tasting the first ripe raspberry of the local season, and dreaming of days to come.
The truth comes out in the end.
In other news, I had a slice of pizza (chicken/bacon/mushroom), popcorn with cheddar topping and a Sprite for breakfast/lunch. Yesterday I had...four chocolate chip cookies, the entire day. I can already feel the violent urges rising up from the blackened depths of my malnourished soul.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Mind you, I don't argue that one feels better when one eats a healthy diet. For some people, at least, this does mean avoiding refined sugar. I recall quite vividly my overzealous support of the Snapple company during the first year of medical school.
Start classes at 7:30am with a strawberry tea Snapple. Delicious! So sweet! And buzzed on caffeine and sugar for about 1 1/2 hrs. Then I crashed -- groggy, tired, just wiped out. Another strawberry tea Snapple to the rescue. Zing, whizz, bang! Up and at 'em ... for about 1 1/2 to 2 hrs. Rinse and repeat throughout the day, every day. It was exhausting.
However, I'm not sure that observation can be readily extrapolated to the extent one might want to go with it. There is a world of difference between getting groggy at one's studies and being a serial rapist and killer.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
As an intimidating tactic, if I was a boxer or a pro wrestler in the WWF I'd pour a bag of white sugar down my gullet before every match, and periodically lick myself during the fight.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
"Welcome to..." ***BLAM! BLAM! BLAM!!!*** "Miami... Can I help you?"
BTW: If you ask for BBQ sauce at a Wendy's and are not ordering chicken nuggets, they will try to charge you $0.25 per packet.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
I wonder why that man felt the need to shoot someone over something so trivial. Was he mentally disturbed? Did he just not see the manager as a human being? I'm glad that apparently the injuries weren't life-threatening, but the poor manager is probably pretty traumatized over the whole thing.
Also, I love the elephant story! That's pretty clever thinking.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
Right? I like that nobody can do anything. They just let the elephant do what it wants, and try not to bother it too much. I hope the rest of the animals are paying attention, cause they could make a killing off of fruit taxes.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nighthawk: "Welcome to..." ***BLAM! BLAM! BLAM!!!*** "Miami... Can I help you?"
BTW: If you ask for BBQ sauce at a Wendy's and are not ordering chicken nuggets, they will try to charge you $0.25 per packet.
That really is contingent on the store. The franchise owner sets things like prices.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
I think BlackBlade has found the ultimate anti-steven measure. Fight anecdotal evidence with anecdotal evidence!
Anyways, I hope no chili sauce got into the wound. That would hurt like H-E-Double Hockey Sticks.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
My current obsession is healing clays. I eat about 2-4 oz. of clays a day. I have to say, the clays have done more for my teeth and my state of mind than any food has. They have also helped my skin too. I have had dry flaky skin most of my life, and the clays have really helped. Check out this page on healing clays.
Primal, I think the only anti-steven is laughter....I sure was laughing at some of these posts.
"I wonder why that man felt the need to shoot someone over something so trivial. Was he mentally disturbed? Did he just not see the manager as a human being? I'm glad that apparently the injuries weren't life-threatening, but the poor manager is probably pretty traumatized over the whole thing."
Kind of like a junkie, isn't it?
OK, I'll shut up. I know there's no direct, one-to-one correlation.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
There a lot of crazy people in the world.
This thread drives it home to me once again.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Proof isn't entirely the issue.
For the purpose of your claims, then, what else is the issue?
Anecdotes? "Gut feelings?" Isolated, discounted minority views?
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
As far as my diet goes...I'm really not as fanatical as I come across here. I am pretty much anti-processed foods, and haven't had anything containing sugar or flour in at least 6 months or more, but I eat cooked food on an almost-weekly basis. I also eat cold-pressed oils and, because I don't have easy access to fresh seafood, I often eat frozen shrimp, crabs, etc. although I greatly prefer fresh. None of those foods are, strictly speaking, completely unprocessed, but I currently am eating them. I do think my health would be a little better, if I ate more totally fresh.
I can introduce you to dozens of friends online who eat a Weston Price-inspired diet. Many of these people are degreed scientists, stable, productive members of society, and deeply interested in scientific proof for their diets. They run circles around me in discussions of scientific minutiae, sometimes. I can also introduce you to at least a couple dozen who eat a raw or mostly-raw Price=inspired diet.
I've pretty much given up on being able to present this diet well here. I'm not sure I'm willing to engage in serious, drawn-out discussion of it here. If you are curious about whether or not the people who eat this way are crazy, head on over to another group I frequent, the "native nutrition" yahoo group here . The archives are public, or, if you want to post questions, you can join the group--being a member of Yahoo groups is free. The ads are annoying, but you get used to them, or at least I have. Particularly look for posts by Chris Masterjohn, Paul Idol, and Mary Enig, there's a great search function. I'm also on there as well sometimes.
There are other message boards for people who eat this way, but that yahoo group is very busy, has archives going back several years,often has seriously substantive posts, and has some real heavy-hitters on there who can answer your questions in a non-steven way. I have considered the idea of inviting 1 or 2 of them here, but, you know, whatever. I leave that up to the group. If you say it's a good idea, I'll do it. I would suggest somebody read those archives first, to get an idea of who you'd like. But whatever.
I hope I've made it clear that I'm probably done discussing this here, unless I get some serious help with the task. I'm not sure my approach is productive, although I feel that I know the science well enough.
I don't want to bore anybody with all this.
If you're interested in human studies, Dr. Price did two small-scale ones with a couple dozen people in each. You can access them here, or I can summarize. Basically, he took people who had dozens of cavities in their teeth, changed their diet, and basically completely halted the formation of new cavities. In some cases, particularly in the children, the cavities filled in. In some cases, other improvements in health/behavior were apparent. Quite a few of the children were noticed to become much better students by their teachers. When he took them off his special diet, cavity formation started again. I'd say that's a good summary, check the link to see if you disagree.
Posted by the doctor (Member # 6789) on :
steven...just a bit of a clarification -- Price implemented dietary improvements on severely malnourished people and saw changes in their dental health (along with lots of other health improvements). That's not anything like changing the diet of the average "healthy" person.
Also, Price refers to improvement of the density of the teeth -- that doesn't mean that the cavities filled in, but that the living tissue inside the tooth was able to repair itself when the infection and vitamin deficiencies were reversed or treated.
Price also used case studies in his writing -- that's fine as far as it goes, but it obviously isn't a well controlled study with double blind assignment to treatment and control groups. For the people he talks about as case studies, the evidence appears to point to an effect of his special diet, but that doesn't prove that the diet is the right thing for every person or that it will mean that nobody gets cavities while on that diet. Extreme cases are just that -- extreme, abnormal, i.e., not the norm.
That's not to say that diet doesn't have an impact on dental health, of course it does. It just means that a treatment devised and proven under extreme cases isn't automatically going to have the same dramatic effect for everyone.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
"Also, Price refers to improvement of the density of the teeth -- that doesn't mean that the cavities filled in, but that the living tissue inside the tooth was able to repair itself when the infection and vitamin deficiencies were reversed or treated."
Price "counted cavities" in all the groups he visited. In many of the groups, the only "cavities" he found were ones that had filled in and repaired themselves. In some groups, he found no cavities at all, healed or open. He specifically says this at least 2 or 3 times at different points. In my first read-through, I didn't catch this. In other words, cavities can and do self-repair, on a good-enough diet.
" For the people he talks about as case studies, the evidence appears to point to an effect of his special diet, but that doesn't prove that the diet is the right thing for every person or that it will mean that nobody gets cavities while on that diet. "
Right...different groups that Dr. Price studied had widely-varying diets. Some ate no grains, some ate lots of them. Some ate almost no meat, some ate almost nothing except meat. Some ate lots of seafoods, some ate very little seafoods. Some had lots of raw dairy, some never ate dairy. You have to find what works for you. The guiding principles though, are
1. the best teeth/health/skeletons he found were in the groups that tended to emphasize seafoods, particularly shellfish and fish eggs. Some people are deathly allergic to shellfish, and they ARE bottom feeders, so that leaves fish eggs. IMHO. I eat lots of them, and have found that they really seem to help my teeth.
2. Organ meats, particularly liver, were highly prized in all groups. They usually ate it raw. Yeah, I know, it's disgusting. However, it worked. You have to be very careful about your organ sources, though. Conventionally-raised animals often do not have acceptable organs, IMO. They're too full of pesticides, etc.
3. Among those who tolerate raw dairy, it seems to be an excellent health food, to the degree that it comes from healthy animals. I have survived healthfully for weeks at a time on nothing but raw goat dairy. I can drink up to a gallon a day or more. Several of the groups Dr. Price studied could drink a gallon or more of milk a day per person. The ones that did had excellent teeth. These were healthy cows, though, eating very mineral-rich grass.
Price did find 2 groups that had no crooked teeth and no cavities. They both highly emphasized seafoods. He specifically mentions one of them, the Maori of New Zealand, who went from having the best teeth of any group on Earth to the worst, after the coming of the white man.
I would also like to note that healing clays have done more for my health than any single food. many of the groups Dr. Price studied used healing clays on a daily basis, and several animal species eat them as a regular part of their diet, as a mineral supplement and to bind toxins in their foods. Termite mound clay is still sold in Africa today as a prenatal supplement for pregnant women, as it has been for hundreds of years.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
You're bonkers, steven.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
Whatever.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
KTHX BY!!1
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
"KTHX BY!!1"
Does that mean something in Leetspeek? I Googled it but didn't find anything.
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
I must confess that when I read the article, one of the first things that came to mind was how much it would bite to have to tell the story of how you got shot.
"You got shot?" "Yeah." "Wow! Were you walking down the street? Was it a fight? Were you protecting your home? Your spouse?" "Um, no. I was protecting the chili sauce of the Wendy's I was working at."
It's awful it happened. I'm glad the victim's injury wasn't life threatening. But I fear I'd still be thinking, "Jeez, why didn't I just let the idiot have the chili sauce?"
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I would insist that my name tag get some special chevron to indicate that I had bravely defended the sauce from the foe.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by steven: As far as my diet goes...I'm really not as fanatical as I come across here. I am pretty much anti-processed foods, and haven't had anything containing sugar or flour in at least 6 months or more, but I eat cooked food on an almost-weekly basis. I also eat cold-pressed oils and, because I don't have easy access to fresh seafood, I often eat frozen shrimp, crabs, etc. although I greatly prefer fresh. None of those foods are, strictly speaking, completely unprocessed, but I currently am eating them. I do think my health would be a little better, if I ate more totally fresh.
I can introduce you to dozens of friends online who eat a Weston Price-inspired diet. Many of these people are degreed scientists, stable, productive members of society, and deeply interested in scientific proof for their diets. They run circles around me in discussions of scientific minutiae, sometimes. I can also introduce you to at least a couple dozen who eat a raw or mostly-raw Price=inspired diet.
I've pretty much given up on being able to present this diet well here. I'm not sure I'm willing to engage in serious, drawn-out discussion of it here. If you are curious about whether or not the people who eat this way are crazy, head on over to another group I frequent, the "native nutrition" yahoo group here . The archives are public, or, if you want to post questions, you can join the group--being a member of Yahoo groups is free. The ads are annoying, but you get used to them, or at least I have. Particularly look for posts by Chris Masterjohn, Paul Idol, and Mary Enig, there's a great search function. I'm also on there as well sometimes.
There are other message boards for people who eat this way, but that yahoo group is very busy, has archives going back several years,often has seriously substantive posts, and has some real heavy-hitters on there who can answer your questions in a non-steven way. I have considered the idea of inviting 1 or 2 of them here, but, you know, whatever. I leave that up to the group. If you say it's a good idea, I'll do it. I would suggest somebody read those archives first, to get an idea of who you'd like. But whatever.
I hope I've made it clear that I'm probably done discussing this here, unless I get some serious help with the task. I'm not sure my approach is productive, although I feel that I know the science well enough.
I don't want to bore anybody with all this.
If you're interested in human studies, Dr. Price did two small-scale ones with a couple dozen people in each. You can access them here, or I can summarize. Basically, he took people who had dozens of cavities in their teeth, changed their diet, and basically completely halted the formation of new cavities. In some cases, particularly in the children, the cavities filled in. In some cases, other improvements in health/behavior were apparent. Quite a few of the children were noticed to become much better students by their teachers. When he took them off his special diet, cavity formation started again. I'd say that's a good summary, check the link to see if you disagree.
I will re-post your last, horribly failed attempt at defending Price's work tomorrow so we can all rehash it a 7th time (or so).
That way you can get all the attention you desire....yet again. Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
This isn't an attack, but I'm pretty sure you told me that you were done discussing your diet on Hatrack. What made you change your mind? Just curious.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Kwea, please don't. Just let it drop, for God's sake.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
"I would insist that my name tag get some special chevron to indicate that I had bravely defended the sauce from the foe."
He'll for sure have a story to tell his grandkids.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Enjoy. Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
"Tell me lies. Tell me sweet little lies."
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
"This isn't an attack, but I'm pretty sure you told me that you were done discussing your diet on Hatrack. What made you change your mind?"
I am willing to let the subject drop, as you can see by my last post, which I made before I saw this. I don't care to defend my diet all that much. The only reason I brought it up was specifically because people seemed shocked and I thought they were looking for context.
I realize at this point that, when it comes to diet, hatrack and me are talking at cross-purposes, largely. The truth really is, I made a promise to myself to not participate and/or start in any more Price threads about 8 months ago. The only reason that I participated in the one that Kwea just linked was because I was asked by several people, including you yourself, Porter. I definitely see addictive behavior patterns in people who eat a lot of junk food--I thought that was sort of a given. Granted, there had to be something else going on with this guy, as well.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I don't discount a link between diet and behavior myself, just so you know. I just don't believe the link points to the same thing as you do.
I bumped it, but other than that I have nothing else to say on the matter.
Night!
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
Kwea, that wasn't my attempt at all. I was asked, invited, call it what you will, to participate, by you, as well as others. I complied. I did not start the thread, was happy when it died, and still have no idea what your point is. I suspect you haven't examined your own motivations in the situation too clearly. By motivations, I mean your reasons for starting that thread, and reposting it now. No, seriously, what ARE your motivations? I wait with bated breath.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I told you then....you kept promising not to bring this up, over and over again....then you would delete the thread, including the promises, and start all over again in a few months.
You always said you wanted to have a chance to defend your beliefs, and the thread didn't even make it past ten posts before you began attacking people again.
My purpose was twofold. First I wanted to give you a chance to prove your beliefs, and second, I wanted a thread YOU didn't start, because then you couldn't delete it.
I bumped it because you began preaching it again.
It is false, unprovable, and contains dangerous advice posing as medical advice. The research it is based on is faulty and has been disproven more than once, and doesn't take into consideration the most basic of controls.
Best of luck with the not talking about it here again....again.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
Kwea, I am trying desperate to understand your objections. I don't...fully understand them. What I am specifically not suggesting is that people forego conventional medical treatments for major diseases. Did you think I was suggesting that? What I am suggesting is that your chances of getting such diseases are much lower, and recovering from them are much higher, if you stick with a simple, unprocessed diet that includes a variety of good-quality foods. If I ever get cancer, I'll happily go with whatever therapy seems to be the going thing. I'll also be eating a Price-style diet.
Kwea, this isn't your message board, so....be nice.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:If you're interested in human studies, Dr. Price did two small-scale ones with a couple dozen people in each. You can access them here, or I can summarize. Basically, he took people who had dozens of cavities in their teeth, changed their diet, and basically completely halted the formation of new cavities. In some cases, particularly in the children, the cavities filled in. In some cases, other improvements in health/behavior were apparent. Quite a few of the children were noticed to become much better students by their teachers. When he took them off his special diet, cavity formation started again. I'd say that's a good summary, check the link to see if you disagree.
Dude. Weston Price. Let's talk about Weston Price. Price is decidedly in the 'perish' section of the Publish Or Perish system of scientific review. This is for good reason; his work was crap. His studies were crap. He invented a wack pseudoscientific form of dentistry based on shoddy limited scientific analysis he made before 1940, one that holds among its core concepts a number of completely bogus claims that led to great numbers of patients receiving bogus care and dental neglect.
His study of natives was absurdly superficial and did not account for confounding variables or misguided preconceptual assumptions used to gauge positive results. He would use such cursory anecdotal observations as 'not personally observing cancer' in one tribe to determine that cancer rates were greatly lower in that demographic. He never made sufficient variable control considerations to account for observational bias. It was total crap. He was so bad that he was even caught stating unequivocally that his work helped prove direct causation between certain phenotypical characteristics and lower IQ, often through the same specious reasoning that led to some of his bigger scientific failures. The best had to be his theories on 'focal infection' which resulted in many needless operations.
The Price methodology resulted in some absolute dental quackery. He was even less of a behavioral specialist. If he's your source for determining the validity of your selection of psychological claims involving diet, then they have no merit and are based on a thoroughly discredited authority who wasn't even working in his field, just making stuff up.
Everything you are asserting in this thread has obviously been punishingly explained to you over and over again without any apparent capacity or willingness to admit the validity of counterpoint. If you continue to assert this diet-mentality theory based on Price's studies, then you're just doing the same stuff that made all your other price threads an experiment in reasoning failure.
[ June 01, 2007, 02:24 AM: Message edited by: Samprimary ]
Posted by the doctor (Member # 6789) on :
I also think we should change the subject.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
So, chili: beans or no beans? Is added cocoa powder an abomination?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Chili without beans is no chili at all. Cocoa powder is an interesting, but ultimately optional, addition.
Posted by the doctor (Member # 6789) on :
I'm thinking chili in two batches, one for those who like beans and the other for those who don't. I would definitely try cocoa powder at least once. I'm thinking cocoa and chili powders together always make a nice flavor combo.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Chili without beans is no chili at all. Cocoa powder is an interesting, but ultimately optional, addition.
I've never thought of that! Ill have to give it a shot.
At the risk of sounding like a rice nut, in light of my comments as of late in another thread,
Heat up the chili and put it on rice. Add sour cream, grade some cheddar cheese, and take a handful of cool ranch doritos, crush them and sprinkle it all over the chili, serve. YUM YUM.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
Wow! That sounds awesome! I am definitely trying that soon.
Posted by the doctor (Member # 6789) on :
Chili over spaghetti noodles is actually quite nice too.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Chili over macaroni noodles with shredded old cheddar on top is my favorite.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: grade some cheddar cheese
Sharp cheddar gets an A; plain white cheddar gets an A-, and mild orange gets a B, maybe a B+.
Personally, I prefer to grate my cheese, rather than grade them. Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Well grading MUST take place before you can grate, surely you cannot dispute this!
Also I agree that sharp cheddar wins hands down.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Well grading MUST take place before you can grate, surely you cannot dispute this!
Actually, I do. I buy some of my cheese pre-grated, and therefore do any grading after it has been grated. Posted by DarkKnight (Member # 7536) on :
quote: Chili over macaroni noodles with shredded old cheddar on top is my favorite
I had forgotten all about this food combination! I am definitely making this tonight!!! This is my absolute favorite comfort food! thanks for bringing back really great memories
Posted by Artemisia Tridentata (Member # 8746) on :
quote:I'm thinking cocoa and chili powders together always make a nice flavor combo.
These flavors have been used together since the Aztecs discovered them. (side note: English word Chocolate is ultimatly derived from Aztec) The most common modern use is for Mole. I haven't tried it in my "Scoutmaster" Chili yet. I always use brown sugar or molassas and a cup of the best cider vinager I can find. The very next pot will have some cocoa, or perhaps some Chocolate Abulita instead.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Well grading MUST take place before you can grate, surely you cannot dispute this!
Actually, I do. I buy some of my cheese pre-grated, and therefore do any grading after it has been grated.
You have utterly discomfited me!
*Runs back to the drawing board*
Posted by the doctor (Member # 6789) on :
quote:Originally posted by Artemisia Tridentata:
quote:I'm thinking cocoa and chili powders together always make a nice flavor combo.
These flavors have been used together since the Aztecs discovered them. (side note: English word Chocolate is ultimatly derived from Aztec) The most common modern use is for Mole. I haven't tried it in my "Scoutmaster" Chili yet. I always use brown sugar or molassas and a cup of the best cider vinager I can find. The very next pot will have some cocoa, or perhaps some Chocolate Abulita instead.
Yes, but have you had chocolate, jalapeno ice cream with almonds, topped with hot fudge and whipped cream?
YUM!!!
I bet the Aztecs would have approved.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
My wife likes her chili without beans.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
So, what's in chili without beans? Meat, tomatoes...anything else to distinguish it from meat sauce that you might put over spaghetti (other than spices)?
I suppose the chili that goes on a chili dog usually doesn't have beans, come to think of it.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Chili eaten with fritos crushed in it: the world's most unfairly delicious combo?
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
How many times am I going to have to post my chili recipe afore you guys know just how good cocoa powder can be in chili?
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
I would ask you to post it because I want a good recipe...
I'm always down to try something new, and it sounds good, so by all means PC, post away.
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