Havah and I took Tova to Kiddieland yesterday. It was cool, though for the first time in my life, the Tilt-a-Whirl made me a little bit queasy. That was depressing.
So we're waiting in line for this Pipeline ride, and there are a few 10-ish kids in front of us, and one of them says to another (who may have been chickening out about going down the pipe), "You're such a woman." I wanted to smack him. And then he said it to a girl (his sister, I think), and she just laughed at him.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
"become"? You never heard of the "you throw like a girl" taunt?
Questioning another male's masculinity and calling them female as a taunt has a long if inglorious history.
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
Pussy is also an insult, and we don't say "grow some ovaries," do we? And good ol' Freud with "penis envy..."
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
And the odd thing is women use them as insults to. My wife called me a woman when I was discussing pants with a friend.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
The Iliad has a "you're a woman" insult in it. I'm pretty sure the Bible uses "womanly" insultingly a couple times, too.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Isn't Freud largely considered to be Dr. Wacky Quack these days?
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
It's frequently an insult to be called something you're not. That's why the guys sister laughed at him. He tried to make it an insult, but it's not.
I'd be insulted if someone called me a "man." Wouldn't you?
Phanto: "D*ck" is also insult regardless of one's gender. It implies the worst stereotypes of men (insensitivity/assholery), just as "P*ssy" implies the worst stereotypes of women (weakness).
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
I don't know of any passages where "woman" is used to insult somebody in the bible. I do know of one instance where a man asks his aide to slay him after he is mortally wounded by a woman as he does not wish to suffer the shame of dying by a woman's hands.
See I've heard girls get angry at being called women even in a friendly manner. For instance, "This is my woman;" it's in the exact same vein as a woman saying, "This is my man," and yet, I've yet to see a man get upset over it. Women however think it like saying, "This is my b*tch," or some sort of inferior conotation. And don't say its the tone of voice, I've seen guys say it with affection and the woman turn to him and tell him off.
However on occasion I have seen men jokingly address their girlfriends/wives as "woman," as in, "woman, fetch me a beer." It depends on the girl, some take it in stride and laught while others see it as a step back to "women as nameless slaves" mentality and get upset.
I've always given the word "woman" a certain reverance that I do not give the word "man."
But if I am with my buddy I have known to say, "Dont be such a girl." Substituting woman into that phrase does not make sense to ME.
Posted by Qaz (Member # 10298) on :
Calling a woman mannish is an insult, and calling a man womanly is an insult.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: I don't know of any passages where "woman" is used to insult somebody in the bible. I do know of one instance where a man asks his aide to slay him after he is mortally wounded by a woman as he does not wish to suffer the shame of dying by a woman's hands.
See I've heard girls get angry at being called women even in a friendly manner. For instance, "This is my woman;" it's in the exact same vein as a woman saying, "This is my man," and yet, I've yet to see a man get upset over it. Women however think it like saying, "This is my b*tch," or some sort of inferior conotation. And don't say its the tone of voice, I've seen guys say it with affection and the woman turn to him and tell him off.
However on occasion I have seen men jokingly address their girlfriends/wives as "woman," as in, "woman, fetch me a beer." It depends on the girl, some take it in stride and laught while others see it as a step back to "women as nameless slaves" mentality and get upset.
I've always given the word "woman" a certain reverance that I do not give the word "man."
But if I am with my buddy I have known to say, "Dont be such a girl." Substituting woman into that phrase does not make sense to ME.
If my wife didn't let me occasionally jokingly refer to her as a "wench", I wouldn't have asked her to marry me. Your spouse should share your sense of humor.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
I recall that years ago whenever my sister was a bit miffed at something our mother had said, she would call her "-Woman-..."
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
That is because in the old days women were property. To refer to a woman as "My Woman" if inflected and interpreted in such a way as to harken back to those days is insulting.
Like wise "WOMAN! GET ME A BEER" is insulting because it treats the woman like an object or a servant. Further, it de-individualizes your target by implying "You're not an individual. Your name is irrelevant. You are just a woman, and therefor beneath me." Once again, this goes back to the bad-old-days when we were property of men.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:Like wise "WOMAN! GET ME A BEER" is insulting because it treats the woman like an object or a servant. Further, it de-individualizes your target by implying "You're not an individual. Your name is irrelevant. You are just a woman, and therefor beneath me." Once again, this goes back to the bad-old-days when we were property of men.
I'd imagine a large percentage (if not most) contemporary uses of the term in this way (at least in the US) are done in a humorous way, intended to be ironic.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stephan:
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: I don't know of any passages where "woman" is used to insult somebody in the bible. I do know of one instance where a man asks his aide to slay him after he is mortally wounded by a woman as he does not wish to suffer the shame of dying by a woman's hands.
See I've heard girls get angry at being called women even in a friendly manner. For instance, "This is my woman;" it's in the exact same vein as a woman saying, "This is my man," and yet, I've yet to see a man get upset over it. Women however think it like saying, "This is my b*tch," or some sort of inferior conotation. And don't say its the tone of voice, I've seen guys say it with affection and the woman turn to him and tell him off.
However on occasion I have seen men jokingly address their girlfriends/wives as "woman," as in, "woman, fetch me a beer." It depends on the girl, some take it in stride and laught while others see it as a step back to "women as nameless slaves" mentality and get upset.
I've always given the word "woman" a certain reverance that I do not give the word "man."
But if I am with my buddy I have known to say, "Dont be such a girl." Substituting woman into that phrase does not make sense to ME.
If my wife didn't let me occasionally jokingly refer to her as a "wench", I wouldn't have asked her to marry me. Your spouse should share your sense of humor.
Oh if I said something like that to my wife, she'd respond light heartedly, "I'm so sorry! I should of had that beer ready for you without waiting for you to ask."
Incidentally I don't drink beer, less'n it come from a root, but you get the idea.
I'm very careful about employing ironic humor when it comes to people I do not know, there are much safer forms of humor when it comes to meeting somebody for the first time.
Posted by porcelain girl (Member # 1080) on :
quote:I recall that years ago whenever my sister was a bit miffed at something our mother had said, she would call her "-Woman-..."
Truth.
Posted by porcelain girl (Member # 1080) on :
If a guy called me "My Woman" when I was a teenager I would have been offended. I was constantly navigating through what was acceptable and what was not to my idealistic nature.
Now I would rather like it, so long as it was being used affectionately.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:Originally posted by Stephan: If my wife didn't let me occasionally jokingly refer to her as a "wench", I wouldn't have asked her to marry me. Your spouse should share your sense of humor.
Oh if I said something like that to my wife, she'd respond light heartedly, "I'm so sorry! I should of had that beer ready for you without waiting for you to ask."
BlackBlade, do I recall correctly that you had said you were working on teaching your wife to speak more properly and become more sophisticated in general?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
"My woman" in some contexts is fine, same as "my man" in some contexts is fine, while in others either can be insulting.
I put "Woman, get me a beer!" on a par with "Boy, go fetch me that frying pan!" in terms of insultingness. A bit of an insult if intended to be so, but quite possibly said in jest, with good humor, and possible to be taken as such by the recipient.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese:
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:Originally posted by Stephan: If my wife didn't let me occasionally jokingly refer to her as a "wench", I wouldn't have asked her to marry me. Your spouse should share your sense of humor.
Oh if I said something like that to my wife, she'd respond light heartedly, "I'm so sorry! I should of had that beer ready for you without waiting for you to ask."
BlackBlade, do I recall correctly that you had said you were working on teaching your wife to speak more properly and become more sophisticated in general?
Become more sophisticated? No I don't believe that has ever been my goal. I do occasionally correct her grammar, but I am more concerned with her being aware of what is correct, not so much she speak that way at all times. I have been known to play with the English language when in the company of friends, but I try my best to speak properly if I am at a job interview.
Why do you ask?
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
I was trying to remember if you were the same person involved in a different conversation of which this conversation reminded me.
As to why I cared, there were things about that conversation which reminded me of my marriage as a young woman, as did this. It doesn't mean anything in particular about your marriage, or you, or your wife. I was just curious.
From what you said above, I cannot tell for sure whether it was a conversation of yours or someone else's.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
It irritates me when my male friends insult each other that way. In my experience, it isn't common for females to insult each other for being too mannish. Even descriptors like "tomboy" aren't generally negative.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese: I was trying to remember if you were the same person involved in a different conversation of which this conversation reminded me.
As to why I cared, there were things about that conversation which reminded me of my marriage as a young woman, as did this. It doesn't mean anything in particular about your marriage, or you, or your wife. I was just curious.
From what you said above, I cannot tell for sure whether it was a conversation of yours or someone else's.
Its possible. When I first dated Tiffany I was initially taken aback by the manner of her speech. It took some time or me to find a good way to bring it up, but since getting married we have a good system for communicating.
Maybe it's the genes, my own father sent my mother's love letters back to her with corrections on her grammar and spelling.
My dad, the veritable casanova. Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Marriage is a long conversation, eh?
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese:
Marriage is a long conversation, eh?
Indeed, but hopefully without others interupting, or either of the conversers getting bored and getting up to leave.
I just spent half an hour trying to locate the thread where I mentioned that I was trying to improve my then girlfriend's grammar, but it has eluded me. This will bug me all day.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Maybe it's the genes, my own father sent my mother's love letters back to her with corrections on her grammar and spelling.
I am a grammar/spelling/usage nitpicker. And I find this absolutely horrifying. No insult intended to either of your parents -- apparently this works for them.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
(BTW, it's "should've.")
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Maybe it's the genes, my own father sent my mother's love letters back to her with corrections on her grammar and spelling.
I am a grammar/spelling/usage nitpicker. And I find this absolutely horrifying. No insult intended to either of your parents -- apparently this works for them.
No offense taken! My mother told us as children that our father had done this while they were dating and it was in the vein of, "Hell should freeze over before you do this."
Incidentally to this day my mother still speaks using double negatives, and incorrectly juxtaposes phrases together to form new ones, "Off her rocker + whacked out = Off her whack, (she actually said this once,)" its hilarious, we all try to point them out. My mother however is not going to change in this regard now, or probably ever.
Posted by JenniK (Member # 3939) on :
I sometimes find it funny that someone should be offended after being compared to a woman. When my mother was in college she had to take physical education, and in one particular tennis outing her roommate's boyfriend was being picked on by his opponent for hitting the ball "like the women". The instructor came by and told them that they needed to hit the ball hard. My mother, who was raised on a farm, took his advice. The next volley had her returning the shot....over the fence enclosing the tennis courts, and across the highway next to what is now UMASS Lowell . The boyfriend of course then thanked his opponent for the compliment as it obviously meant that he was hard hitting! My mother's response was "he said hit the ball hard, so I did. If he didn't mean it he shouldn't have said it!" It all depends on the situation and how one perceives the intention I guess.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
Your mom's a woman.
OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
In a tennis setting if I was told I was hitting the ball like a woman, I would take it to mean that I was making loud sometimes high pitch grunting noises every time I swung my racket.
Posted by baduffer (Member # 10469) on :
Now days the men too; ever watched Nadal. Then, there ARE those "shorts". Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by baduffer: Now days the men too; ever watched Nadal. Then, there ARE those "shorts".
I call grunting the "Bruce Lee Style" of playing Tennis. There was talk about punising overtly loud yelling amongst players during a match.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Incidentally to this day my mother still speaks using double negatives, and incorrectly juxtaposes phrases together to form new ones, "Off her rocker + whacked out = Off her whack, (she actually said this once,)" its hilarious, we all try to point them out. My mother however is not going to change in this regard now, or probably ever.
Your mother isn't, by any chance, my mother-in-law? Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
When I was a kid, "girl" was used from time to time to tease a boy for being timid and weak. I'm sure boys have always done that. I never would have used "woman," though, because it (and "man") connoted adulthood and power more than the bad side of femininity to me.
I think both "woman" and "man" are sometimes used toward a member of the same sex to mean that she or he has all the bad traits of that sex: "You're such a woman," "What can I say? He's a man," etc.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
quote:Incidentally to this day my mother still speaks using double negatives, and incorrectly juxtaposes phrases together to form new ones, "Off her rocker + whacked out = Off her whack, (she actually said this once,)" its hilarious, we all try to point them out. My mother however is not going to change in this regard now, or probably ever.
Your mother isn't, by any chance, my mother-in-law?
Quite impossible, only my older sister and I are married out of her 6 children. So either I am married to you and somehow unaware of it, or my sister lives a remarkably complex double life where she has a husband and two children and lives in Layton, but also finds time to live at your home.
Which scenario would make a better movie?
Oh I suppose there is additionally the similar scenario where my mother all this time had another family complete with children, and you married one of these alternate family's children.
Not that I'd have any objections to being kin with you mind you, but such a truth would rock my world anyway you slice it, and I like stability in my world.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I was teasing, dear, as I'm sure you're aware. But just in case, I was teasing.
Not that I'd have any objection to being related to you, either-- except that my mother-in-law drives me crazy sometimes. Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: I was teasing, dear, as I'm sure you're aware. But just in case, I was teasing.
Oh I was quite aware of that fact.
quote: Not that I'd have any objection to being related to you, either-- except that my mother-in-law drives me crazy sometimes.
Hmmm, another indication that we are speaking of the same woman, this is getting eerie!
Posted by anti_maven (Member # 9789) on :
Could you Mother be leading a wierd and twisted triple, transatlantic existence becuase it sounds like my mother in law too.
Worryingly like my wife's too. This get's weierder by the post.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Hat]](graemlins/hat.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
I am a grammar/spelling/usage nitpicker. And I find this absolutely horrifying. No insult intended to either of your parents -- apparently this works for them.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
. The boyfriend of course then thanked his opponent for the compliment as it obviously meant that he was hard hitting! ![[Taunt]](graemlins/taunt.gif)
My mother's response was "he said hit the ball hard, so I did. ![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
If he didn't mean it he shouldn't have said it!" ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)