There have been feral cats around our house for as long as I can remember. One problem we've always had is when they have kittens, the kittens tend to climb up into the engine compartment of the car (Or whatever it's called... The place with all the conveyer belts and the motor and stuff). We've had a couple die, and we've always tried to bang on the hood of the car, and do false starts in the car to scare them out so they won't get hurt.
I forgot. We hadn't seen kittens around, and I just got my drivers licence, so I started the car, heard thunking, and didn't think anything of it. I drove to the gas station and back, and then it dawned on me. I ran out to the car and popped the hood, and sure enough, there's a kitten caught in a conveyer belt STILL ALIVE.
I couldn't see a way to get it out, so I called my mom, and she was going to get home soon. We're dirt poor and can't afford a veternarion, so I just had to wait.
Well, the kitten limped out somehow, and now it's out of the car. There's a limp that's completely limp, but other than that, it's fine.
We took it to a neighbor who has a bunch of pets, and takes in sick animals and all that good stuff, and she said that the paw looked crushed, but the limb itself seemed fine. She said that she thought the kitten had severed some nerves, which is why the limb was so limp.
Well, she gave us pet pain pills, saline solution, and something to help healing, and we've been trying to keep the wound clean... You see, the limb is limp, but the skin and fur is stripped away and twisted in some places, and some of the muscle is exposed.
So, we checked today, and there were maggots all over the wound. There are pockets formed by the dead skin and fur, and the maggets and pooled in these 'pockets'.
We (my mom and I) got peroxide and cleaned out the wound, pulled out as many maggets as we could with tweezers (There are plenty left, believe me), and we now keep it inside in a cage that our neighbor lent us.
I don't know what else to do. We can't afford to 'put it down', or even take it to a vet. It's memorial day, nothing's open even if there was a place that would do it for free. I don't know any farmer or hunter country types with guns that could put it out of its misery. It could get better. But the leg is really infected, and I'm afraid it's going to die anyway.
Does anybody here have any clue what to do?
PS: This has happened over the course of two or three days. It didn't just happen or anything.
Posted by Alethea (Member # 10457) on :
It sounds like you've been doing the best you can - cleaning and disinfecting the wound, making the kitten as comfortable as possible.
There's a good chance the kitten might not die - kittens are very resilient, and can recover from some pretty serious injuries (being stepped on by cows, run over, etc.). My cat was crushed in a recliner when she was very young, giving her a broken back (as in, part of it was at an angle to the rest of her body), and she recovered completely - she's now seven years old.
And CSI fans can correct me if I'm wrong, but maggots only eat dead tissue, right? So maybe the maggots aren't necessarily a sign that the kitten is going to die - if the kitten is strong enough to recover, they might actually help...
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Take it to the animal shelter, like Zeugma said. Actually, if you email me your location, I will find a place to take it tonight* (if available) and pay myself if there is a charge.
Try me at goingtosteveston AT yahoo DOT ca (not yahoo.com!)
---
*sometimes there are 24hr animal rescue places at a university, for example
Posted by Valentine014 (Member # 5981) on :
Please call your local Kentucky Humane Society right away. The number is listed at the bottom of the page. If that one isn't located near you, you can call them to find that location. If they are anything like the one near me, they will come and get the animal or you can drop it off at their location, even after office hours or on holidays. Don't waste any time!
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
There is an option for "an animal whose life is in immediate danger" (press "3" when you hear the message) at that Kentucky Humane Society phone number. (502) 366-3355
I'd say this qualifies. They should be able to help you find someone open.
---
Edited to add: I'm happy to make the calls for you if I know your town/city.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
quote:Originally posted by Alethea: And CSI fans can correct me if I'm wrong, but maggots only eat dead tissue, right? So maybe the maggots aren't necessarily a sign that the kitten is going to die - if the kitten is strong enough to recover, they might actually help...
I think it depends on the type of maggot. There are some that can be helpful (the dead-tissue kind) and some that are indiscriminatory (eat-everything kind). I seem to recall learning that from the Outlander books, so don't quote me.
(((kitten))) I'll be praying. Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Um, Nathan, please put a "severe grossness" warning. I can't read your first post - it's too... difficult for us overly sensitive types to read. I want to cry and spew at the same time.
I hope the little kitten doesn't suffer too much. Posted by Nathan2006 (Member # 9387) on :
Er... SEVERE GROSSNESS:
When our dog got bit by another neighbor's dog in a fight (Because our neighbors don't put their dogs on a leash... <Sigh>), my aunt told me not to freak out about maggots because they'll clean out the dead skin. So we just cleaned it often and he was fine.
But there were just a bunch of the maggots, and quite honestly, although I know they're just flies, they are sooooo gross. My mother and I just kind of freaked out and tried to get rid of as many as we could, regardless of how 'helpful' they may have been.
Right now I'm going to clean it out and change the gauze around it. The guy for the emergency line of the Humane Society is gone until Wednesday, and the one 24-hour shelter charges a 62 dollar fee to check the kitten out, and more to actually *do* anything. It's also about an hour away.
I forgot to put all of that on my first post... But contacting the vets and animal shelters in the phone-book was one of the first things we did.
Also, the kitten's mom has been prowling around, so, eventually after letting the kitten out for a little while (While standing at a distance and watching), the mama came up and nursed it, and groomed it. I think that's a good sign.
The cats aren't completely wild... They kind of 'lurk' around, kind of used to us. We just can't walk around to quickly, or stare at them or anything.
As for the kitten, we just have dry cat food, so we softened it with water. Just in case the mama doesn't show up sometime.
So. Off I go. The leg actually does look better than the last time I saw it. I've got to clean it (Somebody who gave us the saline solution told me to do it 3 times a day.) out now.
Thanks for all the responses. I'll keep you posted. (And I'll warn appropriately)
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
I would have been happy to pay the $62+, but it isn't something I can force you to do (obviously).
Thanks for taking care of the kitten as best you can. Don't hesitate to let me know if I can help tomorrow. I'd also be happy to talk to your mother instead, given that it sounds like you are a minor.
----
Edited to add: You know, I'm pretty upset about this still.
[snipped out the unhelpful part]
I just can't stop thinking about this hurting creature. I also understand what it is like to be poor, as my own childhood was one of poverty. However, I do have resources now, and I would find a way to help you and the kitten. Like I said, I will cover costs. I can call wherever you would take the kitten and give my credit card number in advance to cover charges, even fax a signature if need be. Just let me know, and it will be taken care of.
[ May 28, 2007, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Update?
Posted by Nathan2006 (Member # 9387) on :
Okay... First off... It's still the school year for me. I have to do school, and haven't been able to post, and both my parents work. I've checked on the kitten periodically (I'm homeschooled), and have cleaned the wound once already today, this morning before school.
Claudia, I will be emailing you as soon as I finish the post. As you can imagine, I'm relunctant to give out personal information without the permission of my parents, and have just now gotten said permission (My mom called about the kitten from work. She was at work, not the kitten. I didn't feel like rephrasing the sentence, sorry.)
The Update. Again, severe grossness (Receding grossness, but still gross):
Good signs: There is red tissue growing around the leg. This means there's fresh tissue, which is good. Also, I've found out from my Aunt (She's a nurse, which is why I've kept quoting her thus far), that maggots are a *Very* good thing. They will eat dead flesh *and* infection. They remove debris in a wound quickly too. So. It's like a vet may have clipped away dead skin to help it heal, and cleaned the wound out regularly. Maggots do the same thing, essentially.
The mama's still around, and licking the wound. This is also good, because it hasn't given up (Which I'm told they do sometimes, if the kitten is in great danger of dying), and the kitten also licks the wound. I've heard that there are enzymes and stuff in the cat's saliva that can help with cleaning as well as grooming. I don't know how true this is, but I'd rather believe the positive. At the very least, it doesn't hurt.
And the best two for last: The kitten has started moving it's leg. Its limb is no longer limp. The movement is jerky, and not sustained, but it's movement. That's very good! Also, the kitten is feisty. This could be bad, you know, it's in such pain that it lashes out at everybody and everything, but that doesn't hold true. It lets us pet it, and hold it, and it lets the mama groom it. It's just tired of being in the cage. It moves around constantly. It also resents being held in a way so that we can wash out the wound.
This next development could be good or bad. On one of the wounds there's a thick goopy substance that's formed over it, essentially closing it. This could be bad if it's a sign of infection, but I don't think it is. Thing for a moment. It could be the wound healing itself, or it could be pus. Pus may not be considered a good sign, but it is. Pus is the aftermath of a fight between leukecytes (Excuse my spelling) and infection, whether it be bacteria or a virus. If there are leukecytes, there's blood, and if there's blood, there's fresh tissue, which means that the wound is healing, and then fighting infection whenever it comes across it. Sorry for all the pronouns, by the way.
The only bad sign, which has been developing ever since the kitten first got hurt, is that all of the paw is dead. It has been for a while, and it's just now started to hang limp. The bone is fine, but now the skin that formed the paw is off and hanging by the connection at the base of the ankle, near the back of the leg. Our neighbor, the one who gave us the saline solution and pain pills, told us that there was no help for the paw, even if we did come up with money to take it to the vet.
So. There's an update, and I'll update again this afternoon. But things are looking considerably better than yesterday.
I've also called an animal shelter (I couldn't before. Of all the times for this to happen, it happens over memorial weekend!) and they said while they have rudimentary skills, they can't work miracles, and it's just as likely that they would put the kitten to sleep. But if it's something as simple as consistently cleaning the wound, they could handle it.
So, after my mom gets home from work we should be able to clean out the wound again, and take it to the animal shelter. I'll have to double check about a charge, but it sounded as though it was free.
I'll update again soon.
*This was edited for grammatical errors and such*
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Thanks for the update, Nathan. I think you are making some good and important decisions.
Good wishes with your schooling. Posted by Evergreen (Member # 8410) on :
I work in a 24-hour emergency vet hospital, so here is my professional opinion:
Crushed paw + exposed tissue + maggots = badness. That kitten needs to be seen by a vet ASAP.
If the kitten is truly suffering and you can't afford any sort of treatment, euthanasia should be free (it is at my clinic, and I would hope it is everywhere else).
Luck to the little guy.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Nathan2006, I just sent another email about the 24-hr clinic.
Posted by Nathan2006 (Member # 9387) on :
Okay. There's not much more to say about the kitten. It's drinking fluids regularly, and it takes pain pills (For animals. A neighbor lent us some... Well, gave us some.), and the mama does prowl around the house, waiting for us to take the cage outside so she can check on her kitty.
The kitten has started to climb out of its cage, so now we have to actually use the lid.
And that's about it.
PS: I'll go check email first thing.
Posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick (Member # 9302) on :
Good job.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Did you get the kitten to the vet, Nathan2006?
Posted by Fusiachi (Member # 7376) on :
Sorry to intrude on a serious thread, but I just wanted to express my relief that this wasn't onanism-related.
Posted by Nathan2006 (Member # 9387) on :
I don't know what onanism means. But, I'm glad you're relieved. (Gosh. I feel so dumb sometimes.)
Okay. My mom is *completely* opposed to taking the kitten to the shelter to be put down. She's convinced it's getting better...
It might be. I just hate the idea of going at this blind and finding out it was all for nothing, and that the kitten may have been suffering.
Anyway, the maggots have all dropped out. A nurse friend said they'd do that when there was nothing left to eat, so, aparently the dead flesh is gone. It's all pink now, and skin is starting to grow back.
We're having problems with both the kitten and it's mama licking the wound too much, and making it bleed (Cat's have really rough tongues.). We have to wait for the peroxide and anti-bacterial ointment to dry before we bandage it, or else it sticks. In the meantime though, the kitten and mama effectively clean off a lot of what we put on the wound, and make it bleed.
The paw is still hanging off, and neither my mother or I are going to cut it off. That's just a bit much for either of us. The bone that formed the paw is still visible, and I don't know what will happen to it. I think that bones rot... But if it does, will it stop when it hits 'healthy' bone? Or will it just procede to go up the leg. This is by far the most serious problem I think we've faced as of yet. We can keep the wound and skin clean, but what do you do about bone?
But the kitten still seems to be doing better in terms of its being active, prowling around the cage, actively chasing after it's mama when she's around, and still climbing the cage every so often.
Oh yeah. The Humane Society lady on the phone told me about a non-profit organization... A funny one-liner about atheism has just popped into my head. Atheism is a non-prophet organization... Sorry... (By the way, I meant that in a completely harmless way, and in no way meant to offend or mock any kind of belief system... Or lack thereof.)
Anyway, the non-profit organization is called alleycat advocates, and their around specifically for strays and feral cats. So. I've yet to hear back from them yet, but maybe they will be able to help.
I'll keep ya'll posted.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nathan2006: Okay. My mom is *completely* opposed to taking the kitten to the shelter to be put down. She's convinced it's getting better... ... The paw is still hanging off, and neither my mother or I are going to cut it off. That's just a bit much for either of us. The bone that formed the paw is still visible, and I don't know what will happen to it. I think that bones rot... But if it does, will it stop when it hits 'healthy' bone? Or will it just procede to go up the leg.
Having rotting dead flesh hanging off one's limb is, indeed, a risk for infection. Think about it.
I cannot continue to be involved in this thread, and I will not be checking the yahoo account you have been using, Nathan2006. Having offered to pay for either shelter or clinic, having actually called both the veterinary clinic and the shelter myself and given them my phone and credit card numbers so that you wouldn't have to pay a single dime, and having watching this drag out for days and days -- enough.
I think this is absymal. I have tried to be as supportive as possible and bite my tongue, but I cannot bear this any more. I can't believe you and your mother are so blase about this -- sure, you may be too squeamish to deal with the dead paw yourself, but all you'd have had to do is walk through a veterinary clinic door with the kitten and the dead paw would have been taken care of for you.
Theere is no excuse for that. Enough.
If I knew more details, I would report this to the Animal Cruelty unit. As it is, I can't even bear to talk with you anymore.
For that kitten's sake, I hope it doesn't end up living with your family, if it does survive.
---
Edited to add: All I can imagine is that you did not start this thread for help, but merely for attention. Nothing else explains this. And since I can't drive down there and take that kitten out of your hands myself, well, you've had enough attention from me.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nathan2006: The paw is still hanging off, and neither my mother or I are going to cut it off. That's just a bit much for either of us. The bone that formed the paw is still visible, and I don't know what will happen to it. I think that bones rot... But if it does, will it stop when it hits 'healthy' bone? Or will it just procede to go up the leg. This is by far the most serious problem I think we've faced as of yet. We can keep the wound and skin clean, but what do you do about bone?
Jebus. Get a f***ing clue. You're being incredibly stupid at this moment. Stop it. Stop posting here if you're going to do and say things so significantly ignorant. The kitten is going to die. Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Agreed. If it has an open wound, exposed bone, and a paw that's hanging off, it's only a matter of time before it dies. It needs real help immediately. But from the description, I'd guess that it's too late for that and that it needs to be euthanized.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
It may well squeak through. Sometimes critters are more resiliant than we expect. [It sure would be nice to have a professional opinion about what it's going through and what it's odds are.]
That doesn't change the fact that it will still have gone through a lot of needless suffering.
(Okay, I am out now. I won't be checking again. It just drives me crazy for no good purpose whatsoever.)
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I suggest taking this kitten to the vet immediatly... I wouldn't mess with such things, especially after the hideous m word thing...
Posted by JonnyNotSoBravo (Member # 5715) on :
Personally, I don't think the kitten exists. It's a hoax.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Kinda like the rabbit from savetoby.com?
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
Jeez, it's just a stray kitten. I think some people are getting a litte too upset about this. I'm impressed by Nathan's resillience in trying to care for the kitten. Attacking him for trying to do what he can and accusing him of having alterior motives seems like overreacting to me. Some cats suffer, some don't, but blaming Nathan for not trying to alieve the pain the same way that you would is pointless. Nathan and his mom are very adverse to having the kitten put to sleep, which I agree is almost a sure thing with a stray in that condition. They believe they can help it back to health and avoid it's death by their own personal care. I think that's honorable. If it ends up dying anyway, well, there's lots of other injured strays out there. Heck, I'd bet there's half a dozen within two blocks of my house. Anyone volunteering to pay for all of them to go to the vet too?
[ June 01, 2007, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: vonk ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Vonk, if Nathan had found a young girl dying in his yard, and someone offered to pay for her medical care, would you still applaud him for trying to nurse her back to health even after her arm had rotted down to the bone?
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
Golly, no. If a pregnant teenage girl gave birth in a cardboard box in your home and one of her quintuplets died very soon after would you bury it in a shoebox?
ETA: Cats and humans are different and to expect equal compassion for the suffering of each is, IMO, ridiculous.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by vonk: Cats and humans are different and to expect equal compassion for the suffering of each is, IMO, ridiculous.
Absolutely agreed. However, given that someone else has not only volunteered to pay for the cat to get professional medical attention, but actually MADE THE FINANCIAL ARRANGEMENTS with two local shelters, I cannot understand why you are defending what amounts to torturing a defenseless animal.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
From what I gathered based on Nathan's posts, both he and his mother will do anything to keep the kitten from dying (not my priorities, but more power to 'em), and bringing the kitten to the vet or a shelter is tantamount to killing the kitten.
Also, cats and kittens aren't really defenseless. Their defenses aren't great, but still, there's a difference.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
vonk: Nobody is arguing that human beings and cats are the same in all respects.
But in ONE respect they are IDENTICAL. They both experience pain in a physiological and psychological manner.
So in regards to allowing a sentient being to experience pain, it IS the same thing as finding an injured girl and doing what Tom described.
People are indignant about the needlessly prologned suffering that the cat is being made to experience, nothing else.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by vonk: From what I gathered based on Nathan's posts, both he and his mother will do anything to keep the kitten from dying (not my priorities, but more power to 'em), and bringing the kitten to the vet or a shelter is tantamount to killing the kitten.
If the kitten can be saved, a vet (and most shelters) is a FAR better option than two well-meaning but untrained people. And if it cannot, then having it put down is far more merciful. (And that is because it IS a cat, and not a person. I absolutely do not believe in euthanasia for people.)
quote:Originally posted by vonk: Also, cats and kittens aren't really defenseless.
Against what is being done to it, this kitten is absolutely defenseless. What is it supposed to do, limp to the shelter by itself?
Posted by Damien.m (Member # 8462) on :
quote:Originally posted by vonk: From what I gathered based on Nathan's posts, both he and his mother will do anything to keep the kitten from dying (not my priorities, but more power to 'em), and bringing the kitten to the vet or a shelter is tantamount to killing the kitten.
Also, cats and kittens aren't really defenseless. Their defenses aren't great, but still, there's a difference.
Theres trying to keep a cat alive and then theres torture. First of all I assume these people have no traing in dealing with animal injuries. Secondly, the kittens paw is hanging off and the bone is showning. So unless Im mistaken this kitten is walking around on a bandaged stump.
I dont mean this post to sound condecending its just I love all animals and Im disgusted at the way these people are so ignorant about the fact that this kitten needs serious medical attention.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
quote:But in ONE respect they are IDENTICAL. They both experience pain in a physiological and psychological manner.
So in regards to allowing a sentient being to experience pain, it IS the same thing as finding an injured girl and doing what Tom described.
Sure both experience pain physiologically and psychologically, but that they experience them in the same way, or to the same degree is unproven to my knowledge and incorrect in my opinion. I just can't see how abandoning a little girl in your front yard to die alone is the same as what Nathan's doing.
rivka - Maybe there is another option that would be better, but that's a judgement call. Other options would have been to leave the cat where it was. Let it limp back to its mother and it'd go the way all cats go. Another option would have been fill a bucket of water and put it out of it's misery. I probably would have left it alone, but then, I'm a monster. I think Nathan and his mom made a pretty nice decision.
Damien - I don't think I'm reading Nathan's descriptions of what's going on the same way as you are. It seems to me like the kitten is active, playing with its mother and eating. Its wounds are clean and taken care of and it has pain pills to keep the pain at a minimum. Kittens that are being tortured by pain don't act like what Nathan is describing.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
The pain pills won't do much once gangrene sets in.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
vonk: Whether pain for cats is identical to the pain that human's feel is not something that can be asbolutely proven. Nobody can crawl into the skin of a cat, and find out.
But we can scientifically prove they feel pain, and their response to it is very similar, if not identical to ours. The most reasonable conclusion is then that they feel pain, and have an aversion to it more or less as strong as us.
Anybody who has stepped on a cat can attest to violence of the response.
Also anybody who has owned a cat and paid reasonable attention to it can tell you that a cat in pain is one of the most miserable and depressing sights that can be conjured up.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
CT has offered better options for the kitten. It sounds like Nathan is viewing this as a science experiment. He asked for help in the thread title and has been ignoring all the help he has been given. The only reasons I can see for not taking the kitten for professional help are ego or curiousity.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
I agree with vonk. Nathan's clearly trying to do the right thing here. I'm not sure what the point of berating him is. CT's offer is incredibly kind, but I (as an adult) would feel extremely uncomfortable with an internet stranger paying a vet bill. As a minor, the discomfort level would increase dramatically.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
Based on Nathan's desription, the cat is not acting in any of the ways that would indicate extreme pain or torture.
quote:In recent years, however, maggot therapy has regained some credibility and is sometimes employed to great effect in cases of chronic tissue necrosis.
source Gangrene very well may not be a problem. If they didn't eat the other tissue, blood must be flowing.
Nathan did not ignore the help offered, he responded politely and with reasons why he did not take a particular piece of advice, or why he couldn't. Just because you can't see any good reasons for the actions he's taken, doesn't mean they aren't there. I can see them.
Jeez, the guy's mom refuses to take the kitten to the shelter, for reasons I quite understand, and he gets attacked for what? Not sneaking out of his house and doing something some strangers on the internet told him to?
Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
While I might be uncomfortable with an internet stranger paying the vet bill, I'd be far more uncomfortable with not getting it any professional attention and simply waiting to see what happened.
The disconnect I don't understand in this whole thing is that professional attention = death sentence. I can understand it being a concern with a county animal shelter, but there are many other options - private vet clinics, no kill shelters, etc. Just because a pet is in less than perfect health does not automatically mean it will be killed. I have never personally experienced a vet advising me to simply put an animal down (much less forcing me to do so) - even with very ill pets (ones that the vets themselves admitted they did not expect to survive). It is certainly an option, but not one that is automatically forced.
Posted by SoaPiNuReYe (Member # 9144) on :
I would be totally surprised if Nathan ever posted on this forum again.
Congrats.
Posted by Chanie (Member # 9544) on :
This is not a random stray that he found wounded in his yard. This is a kitten that he (accidentally) wounded himself. He has a responsibility to right that wrong, if he can. ClaudiaTherese made it possible.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
He has asked his mother, and she won't take the kitten to the vet. What do you suggest a 15-year-old boy do, given that stricture?
Posted by Chanie (Member # 9544) on :
His mom is opposed to getting the kitten put down. He didn't say anything about whether she is opposed to it getting medical attention.
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
And if his mother doesn't want to deal with the situation, isn't there a neighbor who would perhaps be willing to take the cat in?
There are so many options here, and I'm just not seeing how "waiting and hoping for the best" is the optimal one.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
No, he didn't address that directly. Given they had the conversation about taking the kitten somehwere, however, I have hard time believing that taking the kitten to the vet hasn't come up or that it hasn't occurred to his mother and been rejected for some reason.
I completely agree that the kitten should be taken a vet immediately, but don't rag on Nathan for what his mother won't do.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
quote:And if his mother doesn't want to deal with the situation, isn't there a neighbor who would perhaps be willing to take the cat in?
There are so many options here, and I'm just not seeing how "waiting and hoping for the best" is the optimal one.
That's not what's happening. They are giving it the best medical treatment they can including disinfectants and pain medication. They are taking care of the kitten and it is getting better. With time, they may well have a healthy cat with a limp on their hands. It's not like they put it in a glass box and are sitting around eating popcorn.
Posted by just_me (Member # 3302) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: He has asked his mother, and she won't take the kitten to the vet. What do you suggest a 15-year-old boy do, given that stricture?
Let's see - he just got his driver's license, so maybe take the cat to the vet himself. Since, after all, it was his carelessness that hurt it to begin with.
(out of curiosity, what state(s) still give licenses at 15?)
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
She's "completely opposed" to it, not she doesn't feel like doing it herself. If he were to take it, it would be going against the wishes of his mother.
You may be right vonk in that we are reading into this in different ways but Nathan has said "The paw is still hanging off, and neither my mother or I are going to cut it off." This strikes me as saying that this cat is not in good shape. Nathan and his mother didnt cut it off beceuse they are squeamish about doing it. But when a cats paw is hanging off to the extent that cutting it off is even an option then there is something seriously wrong.
This isnt an attack on Nathan or his mother it just seems obvious to me that seeking medical attention is the only solution. As Leonide has said "Wait and see" is not a viable option.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I completely agree that the kitten should be taken a vet immediately, but don't rag on Nathan for what his mother won't do.
Against my better judgment, I'm back.
Look: I'm not ragging on this young man for what his mother won't do. I would and have ragged on him for continuing to post about graphic details here in a "gee, I wonder what's going to happen" kind of way.
His mother isn't typing for him, katharina.
If he'd said, "you know, my mother isn't comfortable with having anyone else involved," then so be it. Not his responsibility. But that isn't what happened.
What did happen:
1. He posts a request for help because the "kitten may die" on Memorial weekend.
2. I offer to help out by payment and/or by helping arrange things. I do not email him directly, but leave an email he can contact me at if he chooses. I also offer to speak to his mother if she prefers.
3. He emails me after checking with his mother first, using her email.
4. Then follows some three days of sporadic emails, commitments to take the cat in but then "things come up," and a few posts on the original thread.
5. Then he posts here, again going into graphic detail and musing how far the rotting will spread. That is what made me angry. It is the blase approach to suffering for which he had requested help and had taken further steps to seek out. If I hadn't been directly contacted myself and had spent hours pulling this together (predicated on promises to follow through) and just sat here and read this nonchalant redescription of protruding bone and decaying flesh -- well, I certainly wouldn't have been angry at him for having accidentally mutilated a kitten, or for having a mother who doesn't want to take it in for treatment.
That isn't the issue.
---
Edited to add: Sure, I can also see having reservations about getting involved with strangers. That is why I didn't email him directly, but waited for him to check with his mother and email me instead.
And other than a general location to figure out what clinics and shelters are available, I have asked for no identifying details -- no last names, no phone numbers, nothing. The payment would have been arranged without any direct contact between me and the family.
[ June 01, 2007, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
quote:I completely agree that the kitten should be taken a vet immediately, but don't rag on Nathan for what his mother won't do.
Nathan may not be an "adult", but he sure is old enough to think for himself. This cat needs professional help, his mother can't force him to not help it. Our parents aren't always right.
The part of this that is absolutely outrageous to me is that he caused this injury himself. By accident of course, but I don't think that should absolve him of all responsibility. And the fact that someone has volunteered to pay for should make this a no brainer. Some of you are harping on the fact that some random stranger on the internet has offered to pay for it and you would be uncomfortable accepting that, but I don't understand why. So what? What does it matter if it's a stranger, or Bill Gates, or President Bush offering to pick up expenses? Nathan and his mom don't need to meet her, take her out to dinner, invite her over their house, give her any personal information...NOTHING. All they would have to do is drive the cat to vet and leave it there. The vet can only recommend euthanasia, they can't just perform it on their own. They can always take the cat to a no kill shelter if they are in any way worried about that possibility.
As much as Nathan is doing from his end, it's not enough. And I'm pretty sure what's going on DOES meet the definition of animal cruelty.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
So your angry because he broke a tacit internet agreement with you and seems too blase about the incident? He's not allowed to be curious about what is going on with the cat he's trying to save or discuss on a forum what effects different symptoms will have?
It's a judgement call. You think what you think is the best. He thinks what he thinks is the best. His mom thinks what his mom thinks is the best. He and his mom have the kitten, so that's what matters. They are doing the very best they can to help the cat and are making their decisions based on what they think is in the cat's best interest. You don't agree with them. Fine, but that doesn't necessarily make them wrong and you right.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by vonk: She's "completely opposed" to it, not she doesn't feel like doing it herself. If he were to take it, it would be going against the wishes of his mother.
The vet or the shelter would have sent someone out to pick the kitten up.
Again, I can understand making the decision not to take the animal in for treatment. I think that is the wrong decision, but I wouldn't lose my temper over it. I did lose my temper over having been invited into the situation and then no follow through while these graphic reports keep getting posted.
I haven't checked that email account since I left an angry post here, but I checked it before I posted. No message from him for the prior day and a half -- no "My mom doesn't want to do this anymore," nothing. Just a meandering post here:
quote:[excerpted] The paw is still hanging off, and neither my mother or I are going to cut it off. That's just a bit much for either of us. The bone that formed the paw is still visible, and I don't know what will happen to it. I think that bones rot... But if it does, will it stop when it hits 'healthy' bone? Or will it just procede to go up the leg. This is by far the most serious problem I think we've faced as of yet. We can keep the wound and skin clean, but what do you do about bone?
What's the point of that?
In retrospect, I always hate it when I lose my cool, and I regret this. I just was fed up with the Adventures of Nathan2006, Young Frontier Veterinarian, coming in technicolor to a screen near you.
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
vonk, I can appreciate that you don't have quite the emotional reaction to hearing of an injured kitten that many of us do, but your excuses for Nathan are wearing thin.
The bottom line is, the kitten needs more help than Nathan and his family can give it. And it should be taken to the vet for additional care and help. There's no use arguing semantics, "does Nathan mean this, should he have done that, is it his fault" when there is an animal that needs help.
Zeugma, I don't think your argument applies to this situation. On this I will argue semantics, because if a starving Sudanese child fell on your doorstep, you'd feed her and do everything you could to prevent her suffering. But that doesn't mean you're doing anything for the thousands of starving Sudanese children half a world away. Does it lessen the impact of helping one individual when you're not doing anything to help the larger suffering population? I submit that it does not.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by vonk: So your angry because he broke a tacit internet agreement with you and seems too blase about the incident?
You need to look up the definition of "tacit," vonk.
quote:He's not allowed to be curious about what is going on with the cat he's trying to save or discuss on a forum what effects different symptoms will have?
Allowed? Sure. I didn't stop him. It is -- in my judgment, granted -- reprehensible behavior, giving that it is predicated on prolonging unnecessary pain and suffering. But I won't stop him from doing it or reporting it. Speaking out against it isn't stopping him.
quote:It's a judgement call. You think what you think is the best. He thinks what he thinks is the best. His mom thinks what his mom thinks is the best. He and his mom have the kitten, so that's what matters.
No quibble on my part, other than a note that "thinks is the best" is likely predicated on a lot of things other than the kitten's welfare, which would not be [unexpected]. [This is true for most decisions in life -- they are multifactorial.]
quote:They are doing the very best they can to help the cat and are making their decisions based on what they think is in the cat's best interest.
I cannot see how this follows from the information available, but I understand this is your belief, for whatever reason.
quote:You don't agree with them. Fine, but that doesn't necessarily make them wrong and you right.
As is always the case, I'd think.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Perhaps the request for help in the thread title was the cause of confusion. Maybe it wouldn't couse such a problem if it were something like, "Kitten May Die...Come watch!". Then people would have known what to expect.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I don't think he should be giving the cat pain medicine without experience....
also, what a nauseating description....
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
Zeugma, having been a veterinary technician student, I am familiar with the scenarios you describe. I don't think killing an animal in a supervised, sterile laboratory environment, with proper anesthetic and with a specific purpose, is quite the same as inadvertantly mutilating an animal trapped in your car and then not taking it for proper medical care, instead deciding to watch the spread of infection and the eventual falling off of the limb for the sake of knowledge. (if we use your hypothetical, and assume this is what's happening)
Cats are *incredibly* resistant to certain kinds of pain, in that they can hide hurt very well. This is a learned, evolved reaction, to prevent them from seeming injured to possible predators. That's not necessarily what's occurring with this kitten, who Nathan describes as not seeming in pain, but it might be.
There's a reason we all cringe reading about Peter gutting the squirrel in the woods in Ender's Game, even once we understand that he was learning from it. You can't just take it upon yourself to decide an animal is a good science experiment.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Nathan, if you're still reading this - and I wouldn't be surprised if you weren't, can I just suggest one thing?
Call an animal rescue service that will come get the cat and take it off your hands. You and your mom have done an admirable job, and I appreciate your mother not wanting to contribute to the death of the cat, but let someone who is a professional make the determination. I'm going to be blunt and honest here - regardless of how active it seems right now, regardless of all the good signs you've seen I feel pretty confident that kitten is going to die, and probably in a very painful and excruciating process.
Let someone who does this type of thing every day handle the situation. What happened was an accident, you didn't hurt the cat on purpose, but at this point, it's time to let the cat die as humanely as possible, or if it can be saved, get it into the hands of professionals that will be able to properly care for it.
What happens if the cat lives? It will need constant care and attention, it won't be able to adequately fend for itself as a feral cat, and unless you're willing to invest the time and money to care for a disabled animal the rest of its life (and that cost will be considerable), then the best thing to do is put the animal down.
I guess what I'm saying is, make a decisions. Quit sitting on the fence. Either decide you will be devoted to this animal's welfare and will save it and care for it the rest of its life or let it die. If you choose the first, you will, as a responsible pet owner, need to get it veterinary attention. That attention is going to be very expensive. If you're not willing to make that investment of time and money, then you are not prepared to be this cat's owner and you need to let one of the organizations that offered to come pick it up come get it so it can be put down.
Please consider acting though, instead of this observatory inaction which I fear will only lead to suffering and death for the animal.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
There is an exposed bone. Expecting gangrene to not be a problem is a pipe dream.
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
quote:I don't think you get to suddenly start getting holier than thou at someone for making the wrong choice in an issue you didn't give a darn about 5 minutes before you read his initial post. If you care about the welfare of kittens, then get your butt down to the animal shelter right down the street instead of wasting time vilifying some random kid on the internet.
You don't need to personally attack me. And we're not talking about the "welfare of kittens" we're talking about the welfare of THIS ONE kitten. And i do volunteer at my local no-kill shelter. Do I need to be actively involved in a cause to have an opinion on it? I don't think there's enough time in a life-span to devote oneself to solving all the problems in this world. I'm not being holier-than-thou. I think this situation is a lot less grey than we're making it out to be. Your mileage may vary.
I had a kitten that I fostered for a few months that had no back left leg. That is, the leg ended at the knee. Some days this stump would get her own feces on it, and litter would cling. One day I guess the litter actually sliced open the stump of her leg, and then further feces and litter got in the wound and made it bleed. I could have cleaned the wound, bandaged it, and let her run about. Cats do have their own natural protections, just as someone mentioned earlier in this thread. However, instead I took her to the vet. Because I'm not qualified to decide that a wound is within my means to heal.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
Well, it seemed tacit to me. Did he state that he would take it to someone, or that he would see about it, or call later, or hear back from them soon? It seemed like the latter to me.
I guess I just disagree that it's reprehensible. It seemed fine to me, if a little gross. I also don't think it is predicated by suffering. I think you're assuming the cat is unnecessarily suffering. But you're right in that you're free to comment however you like.
I meant "thinks is best" for the cat. I cannot see how you cannot see how this follows. It seems obvious to me.
quote:The bottom line is, the kitten needs more help than Nathan and his family can give it.
In your opinion. The reason my arguments are wearing thin is because I have to repeat them in response to the same accusation over and over again.
quote:Perhaps the request for help in the thread title was the cause of confusion. Maybe it wouldn't couse such a problem if it were something like, "Kitten May Die...Come watch!". Then people would have known what to expect.
That's kinda mean. I think all of the insinuations that Nathan is doing this for thrills or as an experiment or to learn from the pain or whatever are over the top and insulting. If I were Nathan I would be incredibly offended.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I wonder if the squirrels ever thought, "this kid's going to grow up to be Hegemon some day."
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
quote:In your opinion.
Is Nathan or his mother qualified to dispense anethesia to an animal? To prescribe medication? Do either of them know how to stitch a wound? Amputate a limb?
Based on what Nathan has told us about this particular situation, he is not qualified to give the kitten help. Things might pan out fine anyway, just because of the nature of the wound, which of course I have no first-hand experience with. Based on his statements, though, and his own admission, his family is not competent enough medically to treat or diagnose this kitten.
edit: Tom: Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
Deliberately harming an animal and harming an animal through purposeful inaction aren't very much different, in my mind.
I don't think the beagle puppies reason at all, so I'm not sure I understand your question. I think it's necessary to euthanize animals to further our knowledge of the brain, AND i think it's necessary to train future veterinarians to be able to perform their jobs in helping animals in pain.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
I don't know whether there really is exposed bone, though. Nathan isn't trained to assess clinically, and he could be seeing (for example) the taut white sheen of a thick muscle fascia, which can look like bone to the untrained eye. That is why I really think the kitten should be assessed, and a professional opinion could be rendered.
At that point, it would have been up to the family with the kitten to decide what to do. But at least the wound could have been properly cleaned and a accurate assessment of prognosis given, regardless of what they chose to do next.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by vonk: Well, it seemed tacit to me. Did he state that he would take it to someone, or that he would see about it, or call later, or hear back from them soon? It seemed like the latter to me.
vonk, I don't think you have been reading my posts since you started this line of questioning. I have been corresponding with him via (his mother's) email, and he stated he would be taking it in.
Each time he said he would be taking it in ("when my mom gets home from work," or "tomorrow," or what have you) I would call again to make sure the current shift at the vet's office had my contact information.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
CT, consider you own supply of emotional energy - don't let this incident drain it. You did all you could, you cannot force people to do what you think is right (if only we could), so walk away.
I don't want to see you upset over it any longer. *hugs*
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
I was basing what I said on the first hand information in this thread. Even if it wasn't tacit, my point still stands. I understand getting upset about someone leading you on and giving you cause to do research that turns out to be useless, but I don't think that necessarily merits attacks on what he's actually doing to help the cat, or his motives behind posting about it here.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:If I were Nathan I would be incredibly offended.
And if you were the kitten, you'd be damn near dead. What's your point?
The kid's not qualified to assess the severity of the injury or to treat said injury. He's responsible for the accident (however indirectly), and even though every one of his objections against taking the kitten to a professional have been met he still refuses to do so (offering the excellent excuse, "Man, yesterday was hectic...wow, that bone's really coming through now!").
Not only that, but he continues to post graphic accounts of the kitten's condition, and musings about whether or not it'll get better.
In an instance like this, the only humane thing to do is to take the animal to someone who knows what the hell they're looking at, so they can make a professional diagnosis and decide whether or not the injury's treatable.
I'm sure Nathan and his mom mean well, but they're doing a good thing badly.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
If I were the kitten I wouldn't give a crap. I'd be a kitten and without the mental capacity to dwell on things like self-worth and an emmanent end to my being.
I still don't think he's responsible for the incident in the first place. The kitten climbed in his engine. He turned on the car. I think it's the kitten's fault and it should have to clean the blood stains off his belt. (ETA - Apologies for the snarkiness, but assigning blame in this case is unfair. It was a coincidence and not Nathan's fault)
quote:Not only that, but he continues to post graffic accounts of the kitten's condition, and musings about whether or not it'll get better.
Why is this a bad thing? I guess if you don't like graphic stories it offends the sensabilities, but he put severe grossness warnings up once asked to.
I'm not gonna bow out of this discussion or anything, but I'm really not terribly emotionally involved in this. I don't want to upset anyone or anything so I'm gonna try to stop getting too involved. I just wanted to get in here an let Nathan know, if he's still around, that not everyone thinks he's doing something horrible. Hey Nathan! I think you're doing a good job!
[ June 01, 2007, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: vonk ]
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by Belle: CT, consider you own supply of emotional energy - don't let this incident drain it. You did all you could, you cannot force people to do what you think is right (if only we could), so walk away.
I don't want to see you upset over it any longer. *hugs*
I know. And my own emotional reactions do not aid the situation, regardless.
*hugs back
Thanks.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
you are a nice person CT, I have not forgotten about that money....
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:(ETA - Apologies for the snarkiness, but assigning blame in this case is unfair. It was a coincidence and not Nathan's fault)
Blame and responsibility aren't the same thing. This is a blameless accident, IMO. But Nathan does bear some responsibility for this. Of that there's no doubt.
I think his attempt to take care of the kitten was very honorable, and his actions since then have been less and less so.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote:I think all of the insinuations that Nathan is doing this for thrills or as an experiment or to learn from the pain or whatever are over the top and insulting. If I were Nathan I would be incredibly offended.
I totally agree. People are being incredibly unfair to Nathan. Telling him to take the cat to the vet is one thing. Insulting his character and reading unwarranted motivations is another.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
Wow, just read the Gossip thread on Sakeriver. Whenever the responses in a thread seem WAY over the top, you can usually trace it back to the groupthink stupidity that flares up in that thread. I find it shocking and disappointing how ugly some of you guys can be.
Nathan's intent is clearly good. I read his descriptions of the cat as being scientically interested, but not removed from compassion. He's obviously going out of his way to take care of the cat. A vet would be good, but not going to the vet doesn't make him this heinous villain. It certainly doesn't merit the kind of treatment he's been getting.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Most of the people who posted on that thread have refrained from posting here. (Yes, I counted.) Some of the people who have posted here expressing concern don't post there. It's also quite possible that this is just a devicive issue that people have strong opinions on.
I also think part of the problem here is a rural/urban divide as to what sort of measures/expenses are appropriate with domestic animals.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
Even if they're not posting in the Sake thread, I think you're wrong if you're saying the responses on that thread don't impact the people who read it (which is likely a substantial number of people that have posted in this thread). When somebody held in high esteem by a perceived private group is hurt/angered, I think the other people in that group tend to try and be supportive- sometimes to the unmerited detriment of the person that hurt or angered the first person.
And I agree with the rural/urban divide hypothesis.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
I agree with you to a point, which is one of the reasons that I have not been participating in this thread. I have nothing new to add, and if the people who have already posted don't sway Nathan my voice probably won't help. I do think that there are a couple of people who have posted here expressing concern who don't read sake at all, and I will point out that there are three who are members of sake (four, including you!) who have spoken on Nathan's behalf. So while I can see where you're coming from, I still disagree that it's as strong an influence as you think.
Because really, the kitten's paw is hanging off. You don't think a considerable number of people would be upset by that regardless of if CT was or not?
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
I don't think chalking the comments here up to "groupthink" is doing anyone justice, in fact, don't you think it's comparable to assigning unverifiable motives to Nathan?
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Or some of us can't express our thoughts about this without violating the TOS here.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
Well I wish it were only being discussed in one place, so we could all join in. I don't want to be involved in the same argument in two different forums at the same time. At least you can curse people out over there without having to be involved in the conversation.
[ June 01, 2007, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: vonk ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Me, I'd just rather see Nathan take the cat to the friggin' vet already, and not discuss this any more than necessary.
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
This is Hatrack, Tom.
We are required by law to beat every topic, its underlying concepts and premises, and any ancillary semantical and personal arguments that might crop up to a bloody, submissive pulp.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
You know, I'm actually fine with that. But can we beat the topic to a pulp after we have dealt with the dying kitten?
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Unfortunately, until Nathan posts again, no, we can't.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
At this point, he may well have taken the kitten to a vet. I certainly hope so.
Posted by Dead_Horse (Member # 3027) on :
I think it is very generous of CT to arrange payment for the kitten's professional medical treatment. I would have been grateful and taken the kitten to the vet. It seems to me the longer the time between the injury and the professional treatment, the more expensive the treatment will be, and that waitingand/or procrastinating is inconsiderate to CT. Injuring the cat may have been an accident, but it is still Nathan's responsibility to do all that he can to repair the damage done. I just don't see where prolonging the recovery or death of the kitten is the responsible thing to do.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
I have whistled my angry post and have asked Papa Janitor to review the thread, consider my possible violation of the TOS, and consider locking the thread.
Just FYI so that he doesn't get a gazillion requests to deal with.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote:Because really, the kitten's paw is hanging off. You don't think a considerable number of people would be upset by that regardless of if CT was or not?
No, I get your point. People can have strong opinions about an emotional issue without any secondary source. But I think there is a level of vitriol in this thread that seems hightened beyond the information that is presented in this thread alone.
What really angered me enough to write the post that first mentioned Sake was reading JT's comments to vonk on Sakeriver as well as the general attitude there that Nathan must be a horrid human being. You can see the difference between my reactions in my posts after reading this thread and after reading the Sakeriver thread. That thread was just nasty.
quote:I don't think chalking the comments here up to "groupthink" is doing anyone justice, in fact, don't you think it's comparable to assigning unverifiable motives to Nathan?
Perhaps it was not completely just. I do think that thread tends to encourage more negative than positive behaviors.
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
quote:What really angered me enough to write the post that first mentioned Sake was reading JT's comments to vonk on Sakeriver as well as the general attitude there that Nathan must be a horrid human being
I haven't seen anyone on that OR this thread call Nathan a "horrid human being." I think quite a few of us are shocked at his choices in handling the situation, and in relaying the information to us here. Regardless of his age or his mother's reticence against veterinary care and/or euthenasia, they obviously care enough about the kitten to give it a modicum of care: why do they stop at self-administered medications?
Disagreeing strongly with someone's actions is not even in the same REALM as thinking they are a horrible person.
quote:I do think that thread tends to encourage more negative than positive behaviors.
You are not the first to say so. I still don't see what that has to do with the topic at hand.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I don't think he's a horrible person. He is only young and inexperience. I don't know how many animals I've bought into the house as a teenager wanting to save them, with less than favourable results. There was that seagul to consider... They would not let me take it into my school And the squirrell a cat of mine tried to eat that didnt' survive, but a bird that was in shock I found did... It's hard to know what to do in these situations...
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amanecer: What really angered me enough to write the post that first mentioned Sake was reading JT's comments to vonk on Sakeriver as well as the general attitude there that Nathan must be a horrid human being.
I have read and reread that thread -- as well as this one -- and I don't see anyone saying that Nathan2006 must be a "horrid human being" or "questioning his humanity" (which has also been attributed to this discussion). The only person who makes claims about Nathan2006 himself is Zeugma, who is characterizing the position opposing hers.
I do, however, see a lot of people criticizing his behavior. That is not the same as calling him a "monster" or a "horrid human being."
I can understand why calling someone a "monster" or a "horrid human being" -- especially given his probably youth -- would elicit responses such as "disgusting" or "nasty." But you are attributing those words to criticism of his behavior, which I do not think is warranted. I don't think saying someone's behavior is "appalling" and "has no excuse" -- when we are talking about a situation like this -- is beyond the pale.
---
Edited to add: Or, what Leonide said more succinctly.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote: Perhaps the suffering of a small helpless creature is secondary in importance to the attention one gets by describing it?
quote:Holy crap. What is wrong with people??!
quote:Any other explanations for this behavior... are just too sick to contemplate.
quote:The original poster is probably getting descriptions from books and enjoying grossing us out, or not telling us the whole truth, and/or embellishing.
I think this goes far beyond disagreeing with someone's actions and goes into character attacks.
quote:You are not the first to say so. I still don't see what that has to do with the topic at hand.
It has to do with the topic at hand because I suggested the extremeness of responses might be related to the poor behaviors encouraged by the thread.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amanecer:
quote: Perhaps the suffering of a small helpless creature is secondary in importance to the attention one gets by describing it?
quote:Holy crap. What is wrong with people??!
quote:Any other explanations for this behavior... are just too sick to contemplate.
quote:The original poster is probably getting descriptions from books and enjoying grossing us out, or not telling us the whole truth, and/or embellishing.
I think this goes far beyond disagreeing with someone's actions and goes into character attacks.
I don't see raising possible interpretations ("perhaps," "probably") as the same as specifically calling someone a "monster" or a "horrid human being", although I accept that you do.
The only quotation you listed that is mine -- "Any other explanations for this behavior... are just too sick to contemplate" -- was taken out of a list of other possible explanations, which I thought were both more likely and stated I hoped to be true instead. That's very different from what you imply above.
---
I also have stated that I regret having flown off the handle and wish I had dealt with it better. I still do. That hasn't changed. But I have not called anyone a monster, although I have said I find given behaviors appalling and/or incomprehensible.
Posted by JonnyNotSoBravo (Member # 5715) on :
quote:The original poster is probably getting descriptions from books and enjoying grossing us out, or not telling us the whole truth, and/or embellishing.
This one is mine and correlates directly with the post I made in this thread:
quote:Personally, I don't think the kitten exists. It's a hoax.
I question the veracity of his statements in both. It's the internet, and I don't know this kid, and kids make things up sometimes, possibly for attention. He tells his story and he posts updates, yet conveniently there's no way to resolve the issue so the story (and the attention) continues. Just my opinion. I could be wrong, but I don't think I'm wrong for voicing it or for suggesting he might not be telling the whole (or any) truth.
Posted by Papa Janitor (Member # 7795) on :
I think I'm going to time-out this thread for a day. There's not a specific post that drives me to lock it, but I think some energy needs to drain off it before it should continue.
I'm aware of the thread referenced on the other website, but what happens there frankly isn't in my purview.
--PJ
Edit -- slightly more than a day.
[ June 04, 2007, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: Papa Janitor ]
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