Link. That's just depressing.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
I think what bothers me the most is when the administration told HIM he just needs to be more forceful in rejecting their attempts. Thats BS, you should have to only say once, "I'm not interested" and they should leave you alone.
There is a comment from a user on that page saying it is their right to attempt to convert people because it is part of their religion. That right ENDS when the person says no.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Depressing, and infruriating. There is no reason why he should not have had his beliefs respected. The food thing really gets to me - any hospital should be able to serve kosher meals, and if they can't then why not allow his rabbi to bring him food?
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Link. That's just depressing.
I'm not sure why its depressing. I think the appropriate responses are being persued and I am confident that if things are the way they were described the justice system will take care of it.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
It doesn't say that they wouldn't let his rabbi bring food, it says that they wouldn't contact him themselves.
Which makes me wonder -- after that happening the first time, why didn't he contact his rabbi himself?
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
Some of the things desribed are very difficult to prove, like what was said in private conversation.
IMO, the worste part would be the hospital administration refusing to call a Rabbi. That's unbelievable.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Link. That's just depressing.
I'm not sure why its depressing. I think the appropriate responses are being persued and I am confident that if things are the way they were described the justice system will take care of it.
It depresses me because it happened in the first place. 21st century America shouldn't have this in its hospitals.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I would be very interested in knowing what happened, exactly. There is this quote:
quote:Kosher meals are available to Jewish VA patients in Iowa City, Sickels said.
that seems to contradict something he said. I'm sure something happened, but I'd like to know what, exactly. I don't think his example of someone playing hymns on the piano in the waiting room counts as a religious harassment.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
I don't see how it contradicts what he said. He said they wouldn't serve him Kosher meals, not that there were no Kosher meals available. I don't think you can start dismissing everything the man's said, just because the VA PR guy gave a blanket statement like that.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I'm not dismissing everything (or anything). However, I don't think this was a very well-written article and we are DEFINTELY bereft of information. I'd like to know what actually happened. I don't think we do.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stephan:
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Link. That's just depressing.
I'm not sure why its depressing. I think the appropriate responses are being persued and I am confident that if things are the way they were described the justice system will take care of it.
It depresses me because it happened in the first place. 21st century America shouldn't have this in its hospitals.
Bigotry is not something I suspect will disappear ever as long as human beings exist. I agree its sad this happens, but I do not get depressed at the idea that it will never cease to exist.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
I have to wonder, if this had happened to an atheist, would it be news? Certainly Lisa wouldn't be the one to link to it.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I don't think he has any right to complain about the singing in the waiting room. (Would it have bothered him if they were singing something loud and patriotic?)
But I believe the majority of his complaints, not so much because of what he said but because of this:
quote:Sickels said it is standard practice within hospitals nationwide to conduct a spiritual assessment of each patient upon admission. Ministry and pastoral counseling are available, but "it is always the patient's right to decline any of these services."
I'm sorry, but that is nonsense. Most hospitals inform patients that there is a staff chaplain (or whatever options there are) and allow them to opt in. Spiritual services should NOT be opt out, where the default is that they will be provided, wanted or no.
That the center's spokesperson is claiming that doing otherwise is a national standard disturbs me greatly. (Not because I think it's true, but because clearly he does.)
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
The only "spiritual assessment" I've ever received was a spot on the admission forms to indicate what religion I prefer.
I've been hospitalized 5 times that I remember, and had children hospitalized 4 times, so I have spent some time in hospitals. ONCE we had a hospital chaplain come by to see how we were doing, if there was anything we needed, or anything he could do for us. He offered to pray with us as he was leaving. That's the only "formal" religious anything that was even offered in 9 hospital stays.
However, private conversations do happen all the time: doctors will tell you that some things are miracles, or that a patient's recovery is in God's hands; nurses might ask you about your religious practice if they notice it's different than they're used to. I don't think it's fair to expect to never have anyone comment on your religion (or lack thereof), or express surprise or ask questions. To expect your religion to be completely private when you're living it openly is kind of ridiculous. It's just human nature to be curious, surprised, etc. I don't think that's bigotry. It might not feel good, but it's not bigotry.
However if they really refused him food, or the hospital chaplain really pressured him to convert, that is just wrong. Their job is to support the patient at this time in the way HE needs support, not convert him!
[ May 25, 2007, 08:12 PM: Message edited by: JennaDean ]
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by JennaDean: However, private conversations do happen all the time: doctors will tell you that some things are miracles, or that a patient's recovery is in God's hands; nurses might ask you about your religious practice if they notice it's different than their used to. I don't think it's fair to expect to never have anyone comment on your religion (or lack thereof), or express surprise or ask questions.
I don't think any of that would be unreasonable. I also don't think that's what happened.
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
Rivka, right there I was referring to this part of the article:
quote:Over the past two years, Miller said, he has been asked over and over by the Iowa City VA medical center's staff within its offices, clinics and wards, "You mean you don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah?" and "Is it just Orthodox Jews who deny Jesus?" He said one staffer told him, "I don't understand; how can you not believe in Jesus; he's the Messiah of the Jews, too, you know."
Sounded like those could be (inappropriate) private conversations, expressions of surprise and curiosity on the part of medical staff; rather than the hospital trying to convert somebody.
(Going back to fix my spelling now, ugh.)
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
When such inappropriate conversations are the norm, it most certainly IS a problem.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
When I saw the link pop up as the Des Moines register I was worried because I spent a summer as a chaplain at a hospital in Des Moines. But that sort of thing would not have been tolerated there (and it was a Methodist hospital, not a government-owned one).
Part of our job as chaplains was to be liasion between the patients and the staff on issues regarding their religion and to contact clergy of other religions if needed. If this man had been at our hospital it would have been the chaplains' job to make sure he got kosher food (if there was a problem -- hopefully it would have been taken care of at check-in and we wouldn't have needed to get involved), to ask him if he would like us to contact a rabbi, and to run interference if the hospital staff were being insensitive about his religion.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
And that has been in norm in every hospital I have ever stayed in or visited friends/relatives in, regardless of the religious affiliation of the hospital. This hospital definitely sounds like an aberration. And as you point out, the fact that it is government-owned makes the issue more egregious.