This is topic Palestinian TV Music Video: Child Praises Suicide Bomber Mom & Will Follow Her Steps in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.
With the Islamic and Palestinian contempt for the West and Israel, this video being shown on Palestinian TV does not surprise me. This fits right in this week's news that two children were used as decoys and then left in the car to die during a "suicide" attack in Iraq.
The video being shown on Palestinian TV obviously illustrates radical Islam's desire to use innocent children to further shahid (a martyrs death for Allah) and jihad and its view that shahid is a supreme virtue.
Horrific video of a child sending her suicide bomber mother to her death Daily Mail (UK) 3/23/07
quote:Palestinian TV is showing a music video in which a four-year-old girl sings the praises of her suicide bomber mother and vows to follow in her footsteps.
The little girl grasps a stick of dynamite from a drawer in her mother's dressing-table and says: "I will follow Mummy".
The shocking footage is being aired repeatedly on Al-Aqsa TV, the official station of the new Palestinian unity government headed by prime minister Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas, which seeks the destruction of Israel.
The video is shown between programmes without any accompanying commentary.
It shows a child actress playing four-year-old Duha Riyashi singing to her mother, Reem, as she prepares for a suicide bombing.
Reem Riyashi, a 22-year-old mother of two from Gaza, blew herself up at the entrance to a joint Israeli-Palestinian industrial zone in January 2004, killing four Israelis.
She was the first mother to join the grim death-roll of suicide bombers and the first woman despatched on such a mission by Hamas.
In the two minute video the young child sings as her mother prepares the bomb next to her dressing-table in the bedroom.
She sings: "Mommy, what are you carrying in your arms instead of me? A toy or a present for me?"
Suicide bombings on civilians are contemptible. Raising children to believe that that is acceptable is even more contemptible.
Just as a reminder, though, let's also remember this bit from the article for some context:
quote: For their part, 68 per cent of Palestinians told Near East Consulting they supported peace with Israel....
Posted by Krankykat (Member # 2410) on :
True, Storm, but in the BBC video you posted "Rageh in Iran" it was made very clear that the clerics are in charge. This is true in Palestin, Iraq, Syria and other Muslim countries too. The clerics goal is to convince the next generation that Isreal, the U.S. and the West are agents of "satan." Sixty-eight% of Palestinians now support peace, but what about in 20 years?
Hitler's use of cinema helped lead to the annihilation of six million plus Jews, Christians, Gypsies, handicapped people and others the Nazis saw as unfit in their scheme for an "Aryan" new world order.
The radical Islam's "cinema" is now in many Muslim people's homes and the their TV is state supported as directed by the clerics.
Beginning in the 1930s, Hitler’s Nazi Youth began to be brainwashed for his “Aryan” goals. Those kids grew up to be his soldiers and SS. I see definite parallels of the clerics desire to brainwash civilians and their kids for their terroristic anti-Jew, West and US goals.
Just as most Germans did not support the annihilation of Jews, most Muslims don't support global terrorism, but their cleric leaders do.
The following is 12 minutes of a documentary called "Obsession: Radical Islam's War Against The West". The disclaimer is that it is about the threat of radical Islam & most Muslims don't support terrorism. It is worth the watch.
[ March 23, 2007, 09:09 PM: Message edited by: Krankykat ]
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Actually, it was made pretty clear in my video that the clerics were only somewhat in charge and that Iran has liberalized over the years. You'll notice that the most liberal were often the most wealthy.
I am not denying that 'radical Islam' isn't a threat.
I am not denying that there aren't Islamic 'jihadists'.
What is important to factor in, though, is that they aren't the only Muslims. They aren't the only Persians or Arabs, Palestinians or Iranians. There are many who want peace and want to liberalize their societies. There are many who want to not be under the control of the clerics.
The clerics have had decades and centuries to sell their ideology and work their will on the people, yet it is telling that the large majority of Palestinians, who have suffered far more at the hands of the Israelis, legitimately or not, want peace with Israel. They don't want to suicide themselves against Israel. They want a better life for themselves. As they gain wealth and self sufficiency, they will turn away from the state and the clerics.
'We' 'won' in China because it is basic human nature to want certain goods and to want to be able to live like those mythical images you see in the West. We are winning in China because people are becoming more wealthy and have less need of the state to take care of them and protect them.
This is, along with a strong military (and some other things), what 'won' us the war against Russia. We won because it was clear to the Russian elite that we had the better product. We won because people wanted our life.
Which is not to say that they want to be us.
Our military leadership, in various papers, has recognized that it is not our military victories which win us good will with the Muslim world, and which will assure us peace and stability in the future, it is our willingness to help the Muslim world and make it clear that we aren't the enemy of Muslims. Our aid to Indonesia did more against the war on terror than all of our bombs.
Not making this point clear, and generalizing, makes it harder for those Muslims who want to help their countries be free and peaceful get out from under the influence of those who want war with us.
No greater evidence of what I'm saying exists than here in the U.S. American Muslims are, basically, patriotic Americans and have no desire to commit violence. Because they are free and it is clear to them that we are not their enemy, that they are free to live as they wish and to be prosperous, they get along with non-Muslims.
I think in Europe, it is clear that this is less true and, thus, you have more riots, crime, what have you.
In conclusion, I am not denying that your specific examples aren't true, I'm just saying that they don't tell all the story, and that we need to deal with the Middle East/Muslims with that understanding.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:I am not denying that 'radical Islam' isn't a threat.
I am not denying that there aren't Islamic 'jihadists'.
(...)
not denying that your specific examples aren't true
I don't think this isn't what you didn't mean to say.
Posted by SoaPiNuReYe (Member # 9144) on :
Catholic children went on Crusades against Muslims.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Suicide bombers are stupid. Especially if they have CHILDREN! What the hell?
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Man, we should grab the Jesus Camp people, these people, fly them all to Antarctica, arm them and let them fight it out. Give the rest of us some peace and quiet.
Why didn't God give the Jews a better Chosen Land anyways? Say... Algonquin Park? If you're going to fight over a place, at least make it a nice looking one Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: Suicide bombers are stupid. Especially if they have CHILDREN! What the hell?
If you come from the mindset that you automatically go to heaven when you die for God/Allah, then presumably you're going to meet up with your children in Heaven anyways. These people probably honestly believe that they're dying to create a better future by removing intruders into their lands. In their religion, they get honour, glory, and eternal life (with numerous virgins, does it work that way for women?) by dying in this manner.
How do we tell them that their religion is wrong?
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Flame them on Internet forums, yeah!
Israel was a pretty nice country back in the day; "Fertile Crescent" and all that. It's three thousand years of goats that have turned it into desert. And with irrigation, why, it's pretty fertile again.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
It's not even something that's a part of "REAL" Islam. It's not part of their religion, but something these fiendish clerics put into it to justify their deaths. I bet none of them are strapping bombs on themselves.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
KoM: Still, they could have gotten the Bahamas, or Algonquin Park, or sunny Florida, or any number of places. Heck, this is God, they could have gotten a magical land filled with gingerbread houses and sugar coatings. Instead they get a desert land surrounded by enemies. Can you get a refund on a covenant? Posted by Krankykat (Member # 2410) on :
SoaP:
"Catholic children went on Crusades against Muslims."
A minor knowledge of history would show that young European BOYS were Roman Catholic and served their knights as pages and then squires. They went to battle with the knights, but not into it. Show me where they were sent on suicide missions and/or were forced to fight Muslims before becoming knights during, before and after the Crusades.
Krank
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
I'm so lucky to have been raised in Virginia, with mountains, forests, rivers, and great weather. I just can't imagine being raised in the middle of the hot, dry desert.
I still don't understand what the suicide bombers want that they are being denied. What on earth would drive someone to want to kill themselves/their children? There's something I'm not being told, because it doesn't make sense to me right now.
Posted by Krankykat (Member # 2410) on :
Launchywiggin:
"What on earth would drive someone to want to kill themselves/their children... it doesn't make sense to me right now."
Or me, forever...
Krank
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
But that's my point, Kat--that we clearly don't understand what's going on or who these people are if we can't figure out what is driving them to suicide bombing.
I want to know what they want that they're not getting. The fact is that they're people just like you and me--they want to be happy, safe, and ALIVE, but something is so WRONG that they're sacrificing their lives in hopes of fixing whatever is wrong so someone else might be happy someday (but I can't figure out what's wrong!).
I'm tired of the media campaign to dehumanize Muslims. We're all just people, and when I see suicide bombers, I think they must be having pretty miserable lives, and I wish they didn't.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Poverty? Hopelessness? Some sort of weakness that these leaders can exploit and use for their aims? Their lives are horrible on earth, so they think the afterlife will be better? Ultimately they are people like us. I'm not sure if the usual tactics of war will work. You have to tap into the conditions that cause terrorism and target them... But few are willing to do that.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
KrankyKat: while there's considerable debate as to the details, the Children's Crusade (which did not get very far) probably involved a good number of young people (probably not any/more than one or two four year olds, but probably a good number between 12 and 18). It was a crusade of poor people, and none of them were knights (as far as we know).
The current best guess is they were sold into slavery before they got out of Europe.
Also, squires freqently participated in combat, usually in minor roles. However, that was a relatively common way for a squire to become a knight somewhat early -- a brave deed in battle.
Posted by Krankykat (Member # 2410) on :
fugu: Thanks for clearing that up.
I would like to point out though that teenaged boys in the middle ages were a lot closer to adulthood than teens of today, especially considering the short average lifespan. I would expect that 12-18 year old boys were no longer considered "children."
Have a good day, Krank
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Yes, by 14 or so they were still wards, but typically taking on more adult responsibilities.
However, taking on adult responsibilities at 14 or so is something that still happens today in many places outside the "first world", including palestine.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote:The clerics goal is to convince the next generation that Isreal, the U.S. and the West are agents of "satan." Sixty-eight% of Palestinians now support peace, but what about in 20 years?
I imagine that has a great deal to do with our actions. I absolutely agree that sucide bombers and other terrorists are horrific and that it needs to be stopped. But I think it's easy to label them as evil and give up efforts on trying to treat them like people. Because when there's such a massive number of people willing to kill themselves to hurt the West and even more that support it, it goes beyond an individual person making horrible choices. It speaks of a society that feels helpless against us and feels that this is one of the few options left to them.
Until our foreign policy changes and we stop treating Muslim countries like children (as somebody recently stated was their own attitude), I don't imagine terrorism will dissipate.
Posted by Krankykat (Member # 2410) on :
Amanecer: "But I think it's easy to label them as evil and give up efforts on trying to treat them like people."
Yes, 911 made it pretty easy to label the terrorists as evil and hard to think of them as just regular "people."
I don't buy into your premise that their societies (meaning just your everyday working guy) feel helpless against the US and the West. The radical clerics and terrorists goal is to convince the next generation of Muslims that Isreal, the U.S. and the West are agents of "satan."
I think the music video/TV ad is evidence of this.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amanecer:
quote:The clerics goal is to convince the next generation that Isreal, the U.S. and the West are agents of "satan." Sixty-eight% of Palestinians now support peace, but what about in 20 years?
I imagine that has a great deal to do with our actions. I absolutely agree that sucide bombers and other terrorists are horrific and that it needs to be stopped. But I think it's easy to label them as evil and give up efforts on trying to treat them like people. Because when there's such a massive number of people willing to kill themselves to hurt the West and even more that support it, it goes beyond an individual person making horrible choices. It speaks of a society that feels helpless against us and feels that this is one of the few options left to them.
Until our foreign policy changes and we stop treating Muslim countries like children (as somebody recently stated was their own attitude), I don't imagine terrorism will dissipate.
It's horrible to hear someone making these sort of excuses. Yes, not all Arabs/Muslims should be considered evil because of the terrorists. But the terrorists are absolutely fundamentally evil, and beyond redemption. And those in their society who support them, while not evil to the same degree, are morally bankrupt.
You assume that they do these things because they feel hopeless. But the fact is, their atrocities wax and wane according to their hopefullness. Every time they score a victory, they ramp up the violence. That's the opposite of what you'd expect if your evaluation had any correspondance with the reality of the situation.
You honestly can't wrap your mind around the idea that their culture is so fundamentally different from yours that they would do the things they do, not out of desperation, but out of cold calculation. But that's a failure of imagination on your part. And it's a failure that they count on.
The leaders of the terrorists tend to be people of means. People who studied in universities. In many cases, at Israeli universities, at Israeli government expense. Why? Because many Israelis thought the way you do. They thought, "Hey, raise their standard of living. Get them out of those refugee camps. Give them an education, and they'll be ambassadors for peace." And how tragically wrong they were.
They'll use their own people as cannon fodder. Not all Arabs are willing to be suicide bombers. But when their families are offered huge financial incentives (paid out of the billions of dollars of aid given to the Palestinians by the US and EU, which never gets to the average guy on the street except as a bounty for violent acts) or threatened, they'll do it.
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
It all makes me sick, but I refuse to believe that trying to understand them makes me morally bankrupt. Seeing your posts Lisa makes me want to understand them better.
quote: Every time they score a victory, they ramp up the violence.
That is pretty consistent with classical conditioning. Do what works with more intensity. It is sad that they consider it a victory.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
A couple thoughts...
I don't think suicide bombing is inherently evil. Do we think of the suicide bombers during WWII as inherently evil? I think the general feeling on them is sad, desparate, but still noble. I think suicide bombings against CITIZENS is deplorable. Against military targets I think it is a desperate, last option to be used if all other resources are exhausted.
The Children's Crusade like fugu said, wasn't quite what most people seem to think it is. It was the poor, some very old, some perhaps in their teens. Many thousands of them went home before ever even making it to Italy. The few thousands who actually made it onto ships were either sold into slavery in Africa or shipwreaked off Sardinia. For sure, none of them made it to the fight, and very few, if any were actually children. Less than half of the total number who tried to join (maybe 30%) the crusade ended up being sold into slavery. On advice from the King of France, many thousands of them dispersed and went home.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:But the terrorists are absolutely fundamentally evil, and beyond redemption.
I do not believe they are necessarily beyond redemption, but I also do not believe it is the responsibility of our government (or anyone else's) to redeem them.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by lem: It all makes me sick, but I refuse to believe that trying to understand them makes me morally bankrupt. Seeing your posts Lisa makes me want to understand them better.
That's sad.
quote:Originally posted by lem:
quote: Every time they score a victory, they ramp up the violence.
That is pretty consistent with classical conditioning. Do what works with more intensity. It is sad that they consider it a victory.
You misunderstand. Among these victories are any offers from Israel. When Israel offered to give away almost the entirety of Judea, Samaria and Gaza, and even half of Jerusalem, they responded with the second Intifada. When Israel pulled out of Gaza unilaterally, and rendered 9000 Jews homeless, they responded by launching missiles from the sites that used to be Jewish towns.
It isn't just when violence gets them something that they get more violent. It's whenever they gain anything at all. Whenever it seems to them that they are getting closer to their goal.
It is hope that causes their violence. Not hopelessness.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: A couple thoughts...
I don't think suicide bombing is inherently evil. Do we think of the suicide bombers during WWII as inherently evil? I think the general feeling on them is sad, desparate, but still noble. I think suicide bombings against CITIZENS is deplorable. Against military targets I think it is a desperate, last option to be used if all other resources are exhausted.
What exactly did you think we were talking about? Most of their suicide attacks are against civilians. Explicitly and intentionally against civilians. Pizza shops. Crowded marketplaces. Discos.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
What are you jabbering about? I was speaking in general about the practice of suicide bombing, obviously not specifically about Palestinians.
But I've seen several comments in this thread that appeared to be speaking generally about suicide bombing, so I'm commenting on it.
What's your problem with that?
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
Lisa,
quote:But the terrorists are absolutely fundamentally evil, and beyond redemption.
I don't think any person is fundamentally evil. Especially if they've been brainwashed. That makes them pitiable.
quote:You honestly can't wrap your mind around the idea that their culture is so fundamentally different from yours that they would do the things they do, not out of desperation, but out of cold calculation. But that's a failure of imagination on your part. And it's a failure that they count on.
I feel like I'm trying much harder than you are to wrap my mind around their culture. From your posts, I'm getting that you don't consider terrorists people, and you consider anyone from this different culture to be so far removed from our understanding of humanity that they might as well be a different species.
And while the evil leaders of these terrorists organizations might very well be calculating everything because they are inherently evil, do you not also reserve that same possibility for many of our leaders here in the West?
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
quote:Originally posted by Krankykat: Amanecer: "But I think it's easy to label them as evil and give up efforts on trying to treat them like people."
Yes, 911 made it pretty easy to label the terrorists as evil and hard to think of them as just regular "people."
I don't buy into your premise that their societies (meaning just your everyday working guy) feel helpless against the US and the West. The radical clerics and terrorists goal is to convince the next generation of Muslims that Isreal, the U.S. and the West are agents of "satan."
I think the music video/TV ad is evidence of this.
If I had your worldview based on your posts, I'd be making statements like "glass parking lot" or somesuch.
Posted by Krankykat (Member # 2410) on :
quote:Justa's quote:
If I had your worldview based on your posts, I'd be making statements like "glass parking lot" or somesuch.
If you are trying to imply that I want to "nuke-um" with your "glass parking lot" comment, that would be rather asinine of you.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote: You assume that they do these things because they feel hopeless. But the fact is, their atrocities wax and wane according to their hopefullness. Every time they score a victory, they ramp up the violence. That's the opposite of what you'd expect if your evaluation had any correspondance with the reality of the situation.
Actually, that's exactly what I would expect. They feel that the only way they can effectively influence their country/lives/whatever is via violence. That people place their only hope in violence is a sign of hopelessness.
quote:But the terrorists are absolutely fundamentally evil, and beyond redemption.
I do not accept that anyone is beyond redemption, but that's a significantly different topic. I think that terrorism is evil. I think that the invasion of Iraq is evil. I think that war is evil. But if a situation is bad enough, sometimes we feel like an evil act is necessary. If we were talking about a few isolated incidents, like the Oklahoma City bombing or other isolated acts of terrorism, I'd be inclined to call the people crazy and not need to understand them. But when you're talking about a society where 32% of people do not want peace, well, I consider that something that needs to be understood. It's certainly easier to digest when we can just say the other guys are evil/crazy, but it doesn't lead to an improvement of the situation.
quote:I also do not believe it is the responsibility of our government (or anyone else's) to redeem them.
I don't think it's our responsibility to redeem them. I do think it's our responsibility to stop messing with the internal affairs of autonomous countries.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:I do think it's our responsibility to stop messing with the internal affairs of autonomous countries.
That's an easy statement to make about an incredibly complex and gray subject.
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
While I do not believe anyone can be fundamentally evil nor beyond redemption, how do you dissuade without the use of force someone that truly believes that it is honorable to sacrifice the lives of a few innocent people for the good of the many, and who has the means to carry that out?
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by camus: While I do not believe anyone can be fundamentally evil nor beyond redemption, how do you dissuade without the use of force someone that truly believes that it is honorable to sacrifice the lives of a few innocent people for the good of the many, and who has the means to carry that out?
Perhaps persuading them with words and good examples that perhaps what they have been told is evil, perhaps is not?
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote:how do you dissuade without the use of force someone that truly believes that it is honorable to sacrifice the lives of a few innocent people for the good of the many, and who has the means to carry that out?
I'm not proposing the total elimination of force. There are times when there is no other option. I am proposing we try to discover why they believe that force/violence is necessary and what we can do to change that belief.
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
quote:Originally posted by Krankykat:
quote:Justa's quote:
If I had your worldview based on your posts, I'd be making statements like "glass parking lot" or somesuch.
If you are trying to imply that I want to "nuke-um" with your "glass parking lot" comment, that would be rather asinine of you.
I'm saying that you might be a few steps closer to it than I am.
Posted by Krankykat (Member # 2410) on :
Justa:
quote: Justa Quote:
I'm saying that you might be a few steps closer to it than I am.
First: The post you refer to was a reply to:
quote:Amanecer's statement:
"But I think it's easy to label them as evil and give up efforts on trying to treat them like people."
Second: Go back and read my reply to Amanecer's post in context and in addition to going back and reading what else I said previously. After you do that then explain your statement that what “I'm saying that you might be a few steps closer to it than I am.” and “If I had your worldview based on your posts, I'd be making statements like "glass parking lot" or somesuch."
Such terse statements by you could use some explaination for understanding.
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
... said the pot to the kettle.
I understand. You are disgusted by the inference that you could have that sort of cruelty in you.
Yet you'll post the news about the suicide bomber's girl. I don't think I've seen any positive threads regarding news in the middle east since I've been here, like the church that recently went up in the UAE or how Mahmoud Abbas and Ehud Olmert have decided to hold bi-weekly meetings to speed up cessation of hostilities between the two states. What about your thoughts on the US deciding to give $59 million to the Abbas-led government? No rounded look at the news over there, just the 'turriss' and the death. Well, there was that one thread on the building in Bahrain, not insignificant how that one dropped off the queue pretty quickly.
People hate it when it's said, but perception is a great deal of reality to the individual. You view the world through the lens in which you choose to look. You raise up or knock down depending on where you focus.
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
Ahh, funny. I guess you re-thought your demand that I "reconcile" for you. I see what you did there...
Posted by Krankykat (Member # 2410) on :
Justa note:
~And the "pot to the kettle"? What a confusing statement on your part.
~No "demands", just a rephrase.
~I don't see any American television ads promoting suicide bombings by American children against Muslims. Do you?
You said we "view the world through the lens in which [we] choose to look."
What I see is that "The video being shown on Palestinian TV obviously illustrates radical Islam's desire to use innocent children to further shahid (a martyrs death for Allah) and jihad and its view that shahid is a supreme virtue."
[ March 28, 2007, 07:44 AM: Message edited by: Krankykat ]
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
quote:I'm not proposing the total elimination of force. There are times when there is no other option. I am proposing we try to discover why they believe that force/violence is necessary and what we can do to change that belief.
Oh I completely agree. I was just wondering what methods of persuasion there are, if those ideas are being pursued, and how successful they might be.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
A senior official, or former senior official, I can't remember who, said that our approach to Iraq and the Middle East should be something like 40% Humint, 40% Aid and Economics, and 20% Military. Right now it's closer to 95% Military, and that military force should be smaller strike forces.
The current administration feels that all military is a better way to do it.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
A village in Gaza was flooded with sewage the other day. Why? The EU gave them a ton of money to use for modern sewage treatment. But they preferred to dig up the pipes to use as rocket launchers.
It's gotten to the point where the almost daily launching of rockets from Gaza into Israeli towns isn't even reported in the news any more, and people pretend that there's some sort of "cease-fire".
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
quote:Originally posted by Krankykat: Justa note:
~And the "pot to the kettle"? What a confusing statement on your part.
Yes, confusing after you shift gears and completely change your wording from accusational to pleading. Convenient, no?
quote:~No "demands", just a rephrase.
I guess we'll never know, since we only have your word on what was there when I responded versus what is there now.
quote:~I don't see any American television ads promoting suicide bombings by American children against Muslims. Do you?
So, that must mean we're better, right?
quote:You said we "view the world through the lens in which [we] choose to look."
What I see is that "The video being shown on Palestinian TV obviously illustrates radical Islam's desire to use innocent children to further shahid (a martyrs death for Allah) and jihad and its view that shahid is a supreme virtue."
Ahh, and that video is indicative of what, exactly? You seem to qualify with "radical Islam" for that but you counter with "do Americans do that?" to me. In fact, there are some Americans who are just as hate-filled with a holy-inspired self-righteousness and celebrate the deaths of those they call enemy. I can think of one televangelist who even has his own show who makes comments not unlike that. The Phelps gang is another good example. The hate is still there, the 'righteous' anger is just as present, but the venue, wording, and technique is different.
But at least we don't have commercials with little girls telling us how they're going to suicide bomb people, right?
Posted by Krankykat (Member # 2410) on :
quote:Justa quote
"I guess we'll never know, since we only have your word on what was there when I responded versus what is there now."
Justa: For the record, what I originally wrote in that post is: "Such terse statements by you could use some reconciliation for understanding."
I changed it to read: "Such terse statements by you could use some explaination for understanding."
I went back within about 60 seconds of the post (I guess while you were replying) and changed the wording because my original word choice simply did not fit what I was saying.
No "shifting of gears," no changing from "accusational to pleading," no "convenience", and no attempt at "conconfusing" you.
And yes, "at least we don't have commercials with little girls telling us how they're going to suicide bomb people, right?"
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
That means we're better than them, does it not?
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:Originally posted by camus: While I do not believe anyone can be fundamentally evil nor beyond redemption, how do you dissuade without the use of force someone that truly believes that it is honorable to sacrifice the lives of a few innocent people for the good of the many, and who has the means to carry that out?
Perhaps persuading them with words and good examples that perhaps what they have been told is evil, perhaps is not?
Not a big fan of force, but I don't think your approach will work either.
I may be sympathetic to the view that the leaders may be manipulative and coldly calculating when they send out these suicide bombers, maybe.. However, if as Lisa says that these people have been educated in universities and Western environments, they're pretty much (as in realistically rather than say theoretically in an ideal case) a lost cause as far as argumentation and persuasion.
The bigger problem are the suicide bombers themselves. Given the information in this thread, news, portrayals of the suicide bombers in their own words, and so forth, I have no doubt that their actions are heavily influenced by religious indoctrination. Indeed we can look at cases of the 9/11 terrorists who spent a lot of time in the United States before their attacks or homegrown Islamic radicals in Canada and Europe, to demonstrate that exposure and eduction is no panacea for religious indoctrination. Indeed, the very origin of the concept of religiously motivated Assassins (from Hashshashin) has a long history in Islam/the Middle East.
Even in other examples, if you look at the zeal demonstrated by Japanese kamikaze pilots or Nazi pilots in similar airplanes, their degree of indoctrination can only be described as religious. You need that level of faith and righteousness to give up your own life in such a manner.
I guess what I'm trying to say in a very-long winded way, is that if there are no atheists in foxholes, it is doubly true that there are no atheist suicide bombers.
The question really becomes, how can you convince these people that their religion is wrong? The great irony of this thread is that we have Lisa railing against suicide bombers that kill maybe 10 to 100 people at a time, saying that they are "absolutely fundamentally evil." Meanwhile, as demonstrated in a recent thread, her own religion forces her to view an act of genocide of thousands (or more) as morally justified, indeed, required.
How can we possibly convince suicide bombers that their religion is wrong in condoning and rewarding *murder*, given our limited contact and communication, when we can't even convince people that we have much more contact with that *genocide * is wrong?
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
Oh, no. Not this shi'ite again.
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
quote:How can we possibly convince suicide bombers that their religion is wrong...
If that were our goal, then we deserve to lose.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
That's not what he said. Nice ellipsis, though!
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
quote:I have no doubt that their actions are heavily influenced by religious indoctrination. Indeed we can look at cases of the 9/11 terrorists who spent a lot of time in the United States before their attacks or homegrown Islamic radicals in Canada and Europe, to demonstrate that exposure and eduction is no panacea for religious indoctrination.
quote:... (paraphrase: if they were Western educated) they're pretty much (as in realistically rather than say theoretically in an ideal case) a lost cause as far as argumentation and persuasion.
quote:I guess what I'm trying to say in a very-long winded way, is that if there are no atheists in foxholes, it is doubly true that there are no atheist suicide bombers.
quote:The question really becomes, how can you convince these people that their religion is wrong?
quote:How can we possibly convince suicide bombers that their religion is wrong in condoning and rewarding *murder*
In case anyone skips the previous page, there are the pertinent quotes.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
So you don't think we should try to convince Islamic suicide bombers that their religion* is wrong?
*It's not perfectly clear whether or not Mucus is saying the one or the other, but it seems to me that Mucus is saying that an interpretation that supports suicide bombing and murdering civilians is wrong.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus:
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:Originally posted by camus: While I do not believe anyone can be fundamentally evil nor beyond redemption, how do you dissuade without the use of force someone that truly believes that it is honorable to sacrifice the lives of a few innocent people for the good of the many, and who has the means to carry that out?
Perhaps persuading them with words and good examples that perhaps what they have been told is evil, perhaps is not?
Not a big fan of force, but I don't think your approach will work either.
I may be sympathetic to the view that the leaders may be manipulative and coldly calculating when they send out these suicide bombers, maybe.. However, if as Lisa says that these people have been educated in universities and Western environments, they're pretty much (as in realistically rather than say theoretically in an ideal case) a lost cause as far as argumentation and persuasion.
The bigger problem are the suicide bombers themselves. Given the information in this thread, news, portrayals of the suicide bombers in their own words, and so forth, I have no doubt that their actions are heavily influenced by religious indoctrination. Indeed we can look at cases of the 9/11 terrorists who spent a lot of time in the United States before their attacks or homegrown Islamic radicals in Canada and Europe, to demonstrate that exposure and eduction is no panacea for religious indoctrination. Indeed, the very origin of the concept of religiously motivated Assassins (from Hashshashin) has a long history in Islam/the Middle East.
Even in other examples, if you look at the zeal demonstrated by Japanese kamikaze pilots or Nazi pilots in similar airplanes, their degree of indoctrination can only be described as religious. You need that level of faith and righteousness to give up your own life in such a manner.
I guess what I'm trying to say in a very-long winded way, is that if there are no atheists in foxholes, it is doubly true that there are no atheist suicide bombers.
The question really becomes, how can you convince these people that their religion is wrong? The great irony of this thread is that we have Lisa railing against suicide bombers that kill maybe 10 to 100 people at a time, saying that they are "absolutely fundamentally evil." Meanwhile, as demonstrated in a recent thread, her own religion forces her to view an act of genocide of thousands (or more) as morally justified, indeed, required.
How can we possibly convince suicide bombers that their religion is wrong in condoning and rewarding *murder*, given our limited contact and communication, when we can't even convince people that we have much more contact with that *genocide * is wrong?
I do not see any substance to your argument that my way would not work. Jesus, Gandhi, Martin Luther King, and an older Malcolm X all used my method. It didn't convince everyone but it got the wheels moving.
Suicide bombers do not view the civilians they kill as human, they are taught to dehumanize them so much that it becomes possible for them to want to kill them even at the cost of their lives.
These suicide bombers are just like children who are taught to hate something, and grow into adulthood bearing that burden on their shoulders.
Israel has done many many things to try and treat the Palestinians humanely. What do the leaders of the terrorists tell their disciples? "Its just a trick from the Jewish Satan to lull us into compromising our standards, they will stab us in the back once our guard is down, we must not relent!"
You must attack that belief that those they are seeking to destroy also seek to destroy them. You must make sure that those who seek to destroy you see more and more the nobility inside you, this will cause them to see their leaders as the monsters, not you.
You stand and ask for peace, if they molest you, you take it without complaint. If they hurt you even unto death, you remain peaceful until the end. Another man steps up to take your place, and sue for peace, your enemies are not as willing to hurt him because you are not acting as they had been told you would. Their sense of decency is already telling them that what they have done is evil. Say they somehow conjure up the courage to kill the 2nd man. A third stands up to take his place, and by then its no longer a question of who is acting as a human being and who is acting as a monster.
Men will start to leave saying, "I won't be a part of this slaughter." Support wanes, and its effect snowballs.
I only wish suicide bombers could not kill instantaneously, and that their victims would all have a chance to tell a would be bomber their stories, and to have a chance to ask for mercy or forgive him.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I'd be surprised if the situation is solved anytime soon without third party troops coming in as a security force. Whether it's the US, or a Middle Eastern force, or a combination of the two.
If both sides end up with a sustainable country, with realistic, defensible borders, and there's a few years of peacekeeping by a third party that the insurgents are hesitant to attack and the Israelis trust enough to not rock the boat by taking things into their own hands, and if the money keeps flowing (and that same third party ensures it goes where it's intended), I think they could make some real strides, real quick.
Of course, that's a lot of ifs. Still I don't think it's impossible.
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
Suicide missions are borne of a cultivated desperation. The way to stifle the activity is to diffuse the desperation. So far there are very few instances of any nation successfully managing to accomplish that. Currently, Ireland seems to be making the most progress of the groups in our most recent century or so.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Ireland has made remarkable process from what I've read recently. A power sharing government, the IRA possibly on the verge of disarmament. The problem is that there's no one size fits all solutiont to terrorist grievances.
Palestine/Israel seems to only have three options. Either you do what is going on now, which is Israel mostly restraining itself at the demand of the world body whilst continual terrorist attacks are lobbed at them from Gaza and such, or you give them what they want, or you do what Lisa has suggested in the past and you force march them to the border then drop the iron curtain.
I think the Palestinians are slowly moving towards peace, but maybe too slowly, slower than that world can accept, but I don't know how you'd speed them up. It's almost a good thing that they are in charge of the Palestinian government. If they had been left out of the discussions of peace and a Fatah was allowed to do all the bargaining, you'd still have a lot of trouble after it was all over. But they are in control now, as was the will of the people. They do more for the Palestinian people, civil service wise, than Fatah ever did (Fatah being the party that funneled millions of dollars into a black hole). And progressive elements in Hamas are trying to inch them closer to recognizing Israel and changing their charter so it doesn't require Israel's destruction. They realize that doing so is the only way to achieve real lasting peace, so they push.
Generally I don't think you can really force terrorists to do much of anything. You either eliminate them Medieval style, or you wait them out and convince them to try another course. The middle ground gets you Iraq.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jutsa Notha Name: Suicide missions are borne of a cultivated desperation.
Why are you so sure about that? Just because it's "common knowledge"? Or because you can't imagine anything else that would cause someone to behave that way?
If you're out hunting, and you go to shoot an animal, and you realize that your gun isn't working, is it desperation that leads you to pull a different weapon and shoot the animal with that instead? I'm assuming that the animal isn't charging you, or anything. It's just sitting around in a pizza parlor or dancing at a disco, or shopping for vegetables in an open air market, and doesn't even know you're there.
That's what they're doing. Attacking us frontally doesn't work, for any number of reasons. But desperation would be if we were in the process of attacking them. It's not desperation when it's simply a matter of them wanting what we have. There's no desperation here; no urgency. Just what they want, and they think that doing this will get them what they want.
Basically, they're willing to commit mass murder, and even through their lives away, out of greed, envy, jealousy and hate. That's not desperation; that's evil.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:Suicide missions are borne of a cultivated desperation.
On the face of it, this does not seem to bear out the idea many suicide bombers hold, that they ascend straight to heaven after dying, while taking many hated enemies along with them.
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
Lyrhawn, the Palestinian and Israeli leaders just recently agreed to meet every other week in an effort to hash out some workable relations. The US has agreed to give the Palestinian government some money to help it pay for some basic necessities (like workers' salaries). Steps are being made, but you are correct that Ireland's solution is not a one-size-fits-all. I was more using Ireland as an example of one of the few places where there was not only efforts, but what looks to be results that will last. I don't know if Gaza and the West bank will follow suit in the foreseeable future, but even if it did that would only be two instances in over a century where a government (or part of a government, or group of governments) successfully reconciled with an enemy willing to die fighting them.
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:Originally posted by Jutsa Notha Name: Suicide missions are borne of a cultivated desperation.
Why are you so sure about that? Just because it's "common knowledge"? Or because you can't imagine anything else that would cause someone to behave that way?
Behave what way? Do you understand what I meant when I said "cultivated desperation"?
quote:If you're out hunting, and you go to shoot an animal, and you realize that your gun isn't working, is it desperation that leads you to pull a different weapon and shoot the animal with that instead? I'm assuming that the animal isn't charging you, or anything. It's just sitting around in a pizza parlor or dancing at a disco, or shopping for vegetables in an open air market, and doesn't even know you're there.
I do believe that this is the first time I've seen someone use reversed dehumanization as an argument tactic that wasn't part of some speech from some organization.
quote:That's what they're doing. Attacking us frontally doesn't work, for any number of reasons. But desperation would be if we were in the process of attacking them. It's not desperation when it's simply a matter of them wanting what we have. There's no desperation here; no urgency. Just what they want, and they think that doing this will get them what they want.
There's no desperation and no urgency to you, as far as you can tell. Since I'm not going to fall into the rhetorical trap of arguing who's the aggressor and who's the victim in this situation, all I can reply with is that just because you don't conceive of it does not make it reality for someone else.
quote:Basically, they're willing to commit mass murder, and even through their lives away, out of greed, envy, jealousy and hate. That's not desperation; that's evil.
Well, since you've already decided, we don't have to really argue about it, do we? Posted by Krankykat (Member # 2410) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jutsa:
Suicide missions are borne of a cultivated desperation.
Yup, and the cultivation is being done by radical Islam and its clerics.
Example:"Palestinian TV Music Video: Child Praises Suicide Bomber Mom & Will Follow Her Steps"
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
quote:Originally posted by Krankykat:
quote:Originally posted by Jutsa:
Suicide missions are borne of a cultivated desperation.
Yup, and the cultivation is being done by radical Islam and its clerics.
Example:"Palestinian TV Music Video: Child Praises Suicide Bomber Mom & Will Follow Her Steps"
It has been cultivated by many different groups in different areas for different reasons. It has even happened in America, with abortion clinics as an example. Once again, the techniques have been different and the environment completely different, but something impressed in each person who performed the act that such a thing was not only a viable alternative, but the viable alternative. It's not always going to be the same thing. One day it's a speaker at a rally, the next day it's a flyer passed around, the next day it's a commercial, the next day it's a radio spot. I'm not arguing that what you point out isn't monstrous, I'm arguing that there is enough monstrosity to go around, and I can't think of a first world nation who could justifiably claim superiority unless one is willing to accept some hierarchy of monstrosity that allows for "different from me" to equal "more evil."
Good catch on the emphasis, though.
Posted by Krankykat (Member # 2410) on :
Justa:
Good point. I definitely agree with you that I “can't think of a first world nation who could (and/or should) justifiably claim superiority." Your post shows me that you are eloquent enough to explain your position w/o personal jabs and disparaging remarks toward other posters. Well thought out arguments work much better. Now I’m going to go do yard work and cultivate my garden. Have a good afternoon/evening.
Krank
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jutsa Notha Name:
quote:Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:Originally posted by Jutsa Notha Name: Suicide missions are borne of a cultivated desperation.
Why are you so sure about that? Just because it's "common knowledge"? Or because you can't imagine anything else that would cause someone to behave that way?
Behave what way? Do you understand what I meant when I said "cultivated desperation"?
I think so. You're implying that the leaders are keeping the average guy on the street in a state of desperation so that he'll be willing to engage in such atrocities. I disagree.
quote:Originally posted by Jutsa Notha Name:
quote:If you're out hunting, and you go to shoot an animal, and you realize that your gun isn't working, is it desperation that leads you to pull a different weapon and shoot the animal with that instead? I'm assuming that the animal isn't charging you, or anything. It's just sitting around in a pizza parlor or dancing at a disco, or shopping for vegetables in an open air market, and doesn't even know you're there.
I do believe that this is the first time I've seen someone use reversed dehumanization as an argument tactic that wasn't part of some speech from some organization.
Funny what happens when someone is being honest, and not trying to engage in rhetorical tricks.
Then again, most people know that analogies explicitly do not include the concretes. Had I analogized the Arabs to animals, I would not have been calling them animals, but dishonest or ignorant people would have claimed that I was. In this case, I wasn't calling us animals, either. It's an analogy. Go and look it up.
quote:Originally posted by Jutsa Notha Name:
quote:That's what they're doing. Attacking us frontally doesn't work, for any number of reasons. But desperation would be if we were in the process of attacking them. It's not desperation when it's simply a matter of them wanting what we have. There's no desperation here; no urgency. Just what they want, and they think that doing this will get them what they want.
There's no desperation and no urgency to you, as far as you can tell.
Nor as far as you can tell. You're simply positing it. And claiming it as a matter of bald fact. "Suicide missions are borne of a cultivated desperation." How do you know?
quote:Originally posted by Jutsa Notha Name: Since I'm not going to fall into the rhetorical trap of arguing who's the aggressor and who's the victim in this situation,
Because God forbid such a distinction should be made. The moment we stop insisting on moral equivalency (and damn the facts), we might actually be faced with some difficult decisions.
quote:Originally posted by Jutsa Notha Name: all I can reply with is that just because you don't conceive of it does not make it reality for someone else.
And just because you do conceive it doesn't make it reality for someone else.
quote:Originally posted by Jutsa Notha Name:
quote:Basically, they're willing to commit mass murder, and even through their lives away, out of greed, envy, jealousy and hate. That's not desperation; that's evil.
Well, since you've already decided, we don't have to really argue about it, do we?
Pot, I'd like you to meet Kettle. He's black, too.
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
Except the difference is that you're still arguing with me about it. I have no desire to argue it with you. You seem to want to, but the way you worded things earlier seems to me like you're way too emotionally invested for it to go anywhere but badly.
You hate Palestinians. You made your point very clear in previous threads. Good for you.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jutsa Notha Name: Except the difference is that you're still arguing with me about it. I have no desire to argue it with you. You seem to want to, but the way you worded things earlier seems to me like you're way too emotionally invested for it to go anywhere but badly.
You hate Palestinians. You made your point very clear in previous threads. Good for you.
Pretty sure that Lisa hates that Palestinians are to any degree systematically trying to violently remove her people from their country.
I am quite certain that if to a reasonable degree Palestinians did not attack Israelis she would be happy to live next door to them.
Posted by airmanfour (Member # 6111) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jutsa Notha Name: Except the difference is that you're still arguing with me about it. I have no desire to argue it with you. You seem to want to, but the way you worded things earlier seems to me like you're way too emotionally invested for it to go anywhere but badly.
You hate Palestinians. You made your point very clear in previous threads. Good for you.
Justa, can I ask your background? We all know that Lisa is a very nationalistic Israeli, and what she believes comes from direct interaction with the forces being argued about here. Where do your ideas come from?
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Pretty sure that Lisa hates that Palestinians are to any degree systematically trying to violently remove her people from their country.
I am quite certain that if to a reasonable degree Palestinians did not attack Israelis she would be happy to live next door to them.
Yes, and I've had people say to me, point blank: "it's not that I hate black people, it's that I can't stand niggers."
There is a certain ground where I refuse to tread. Lisa is currently standing squarely in it. I'm not implying Lisa is a racist, but I will say that racism also stands on that soil. I know she feels justified in her stance, and I neither wish to challenge that nor debate her justifications. There are problems with that which go beyond the futility of such an exercise, but some of those problems are not really up for discussion.
quote:Originally posted by airmanfouor: Justa, can I ask your background? We all know that Lisa is a very nationalistic Israeli, and what she believes comes from direct interaction with the forces being argued about here. Where do your ideas come from?
I really don't see how that is going to change the usefulness of the discussion. Establishing relevance from that sort of position is one of the parts of a discussion like this that I would rather avoid. While useful in social topics, it could only serve as being divisive in this kind of topic.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:Originally posted by Jutsa Notha Name: Except the difference is that you're still arguing with me about it. I have no desire to argue it with you. You seem to want to, but the way you worded things earlier seems to me like you're way too emotionally invested for it to go anywhere but badly.
You hate Palestinians. You made your point very clear in previous threads. Good for you.
Pretty sure that Lisa hates that Palestinians are to any degree systematically trying to violently remove her people from their country.
I am quite certain that if to a reasonable degree Palestinians did not attack Israelis she would be happy to live next door to them.
Amen. Other than the terrorism and support for terrorism, they're good people. Of course, that's like saying that Hitler painted lovely pictures. It may be true, but the bad makes it very hard to really appreciate the good.
I think Jutsa Notha Name would rather play his ad hominem games than address this seriously. He can make blanket statements that have no basis, and when I object to them, he says, "Well, you're a poopy-head, so I don't want to discuss it with you." It's not very mature, but whatever.
The bottom line is, he can make a bald statement about desperation, and it cannot be questioned. And anyone questioning it must have his or her honesty or humanity called into question. Those are the tactics of a thug.
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
Interestingly, Kranky agreed with me but you don't see Lisa tearing into him for agreeing.
You go ahead and play the victim, Lisa. However, you are the only poster in this thread who has previously stated openly that genocide is okay if it is justified. I've watched previous threads on this topic where you actually drove people to the point where they would no longer discuss the topic here. Whine and moan all you want, but I have no desire for a replay of events.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote: However, you are the only poster in this thread who has previously stated openly that genocide is okay if it is justified
For the sake of honesty, I must say you are not accurate in this statement.
Incidentally would you say ANYTHING is still not OK even if it is justified.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:In case anyone skips the previous page, there are the pertinent quotes.
Although the thread didn't go down that path it could have done, for the sake of honesty I'd like to say that I think you missed one of an important part of what Mucus said:
quote:Even in other examples, if you look at the zeal demonstrated by Japanese kamikaze pilots or Nazi pilots in similar airplanes, their degree of indoctrination can only be described as religious. You need that level of faith and righteousness to give up your own life in such a manner.
He does not limit his condemnation to the religious, only to those who have a religious-like zeal, something that does arise more often within religions. It is the higher ideal and the blind faith to fulfill it that is the problem.
I like the "cultivated desperation" quite a bit, but I'd still like to elaborate on my own ideas.
I believe that suicide bombers begin as desperate, disillusioned, idealistic, possibly slightly obsessive people- or some combination of the factors. (The last arises merely out of a speculation about the fact that clearly not everyone becomes a suicide bomber). Poverty I do not think is a factor; many suicide bombers come from middle class or wealthy families.
Whether they are educated religiously in the Middle East or in Western Europe as atheists, it does not matter. I think that it is more that at some point in his or her life the person, who may feel that he or she has been missing something- a purpose, an ideal- meets someone or reads something that is like a spark. To a desperate or lonely person, a friend, a belief or a purpose- if it is looking after cats or following a religious/zealous movement- can be something that makes the world come alive.
When we think about suicide bombers we often think about the death and destruction they bring with them and we ask "how can they kill so many people?" I think we should remember that they are suicide bombers. They do not have to live with themselves. When they press the deteonator, their life ends. It is almost as if it never happened.
And they are told they will get glory, recognition- in heaven and on earth. And it is true. Has anyone heard the name of a suicide bomber before he or she kills? Rarely. Those with the power to make themselves heard may carry the same ideals but they do not have the same desperation because they are already recognised. They are leaders of a community with many friends, power, influence. It is my belief that a suicide bomber has much fewer of these things and even if he or she does have a family, children, a wife or husband, friends, there has possibly always been a gulf which only the promise of glory and purpose can fill.
I think that we should think of suicide bombers more often not as serial killers, who go from person to person, premeditatively attempting to get away with it, but more as people who simply commit suicide.
Of course, this should not be interpreted as an excuse or a way to not call them murderers and killers; they are. However, we need to remember when thinking about their motivations that they are committing suicide.
We are all familiar with copycat murders and copycat suicides. Combine the two. Add what amounts to one of those sites that encourages suicide.
In my opinion, it is the person who controls and encourages the suicide, who runs the site if you will, who is the serial killer at heart, who can truly hold the zealous, quasi-religious ideals up above everything else.
Aside from everything though, I believe that no one suicide bomber, or even the controller or encourager of them, has the same motivation. They are all merely assignment themselves to the same ideal in order to fulfill individual or idealistic needs.
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
quote:In my opinion, it is the person who controls and encourages the suicide, who runs the site if you will, who is the serial killer at heart, who can truly hold the zealous, quasi-religious ideals up above everything else.
This part I agree with.
quote:I think that we should think of suicide bombers more often not as serial killers, who go from person to person, premeditatively attempting to get away with it, but more as people who simply commit suicide.
Of course, this should not be interpreted as an excuse or a way to not call them murderers and killers; they are. However, we need to remember when thinking about their motivations that they are committing suicide.
This I do not, at least not with regard to the suicide bombers in Israel/Palestine or Iraq.
Those (the ones in Israel/Palestine and Iraq) definitely start disillusioned and idealistic, however they don't have to start out desperate. That is ingrained in them after they are convinced that not only are they the victim, but that they are the victim with teeth. It is pounded through rhetoric that their 'kind' (be it Muslim, Palestinian, Iraqi 'freedom fighter', and so on) is at the edge of the maw, backed up to the edge by the beast (the enemy), and even with the inevitability of their individual destruction (and this inevitability is important) that they can strike the beast a blow.
From interviews with anonymous handlers (who coach and keep the person focused on the target), it seems that inevitability and that blow are the key. It doesn't even necessarily have to be a mortal blow, because their cause is just and the more targets that are hit the weaker the enemy's resolve will be. It is righteous fury and individual defeatism, whipped into a calculated frenzy meant to take what is assumed to be an inevitable meaningless death by the enemy's attacks and turning it into a meaningful example akin to "we will not go quietly into the night" multiplied by as many deaths as the suicide bomber can cause with their own willful (their choosing, their terms, not the enemy's) demise. It is not insignificant that these people aften need someone to coach them along, to separate them from friends and family, to sometimes present them with 'special' ceremonies steeped on beliefs the individuals already hold, affirming their sense of self-righteousness and steeling their resolve for the task that requires a cold and detached focus.
Think of it as cult programming times a thousand, for the sole purpose of convincing the bomber that their death is inevitable, their sacrifice has meaning, and their cause is the most just and right thing they can do in the face of eternity.
But these people aren't suicidal. They are convinced to celebrate their 'worthiness'. Their resolve. The promises in the afterlife are just a frosting on the cake of how important their assumed martyrdom will be to the cause that they've been indoctrinated to. They aren't struggling with feelings of inadequacy or meaninglessness, they are fed feelings of empowerment and relevance. They aren't trying to make some suffering go away, they are encouraged to absorb the sufferings that have been inflicted on them and give back tenfold. They aren't convinced it's the only way out, they are convinced that this is the best, most esteemed, highest way out.
And then they go out to commit their act of what they have been convinced is the ultimate act of righteousness. Not long afterward, the handler who coached the person through the process moves on to the next volunteer, to assess whether they will be fit for the indoctrination they need to go willingly into death for the cause.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote: However, you are the only poster in this thread who has previously stated openly that genocide is okay if it is justified
For the sake of honesty, I must say you are not accurate in this statement.
Incidentally would you say ANYTHING is still not OK even if it is justified.
Well I don't know how I feel about that as quoted. But Lisa is the only person on this board I've ever seen advocate a form of, or something very similar to, genocide.
Posted by Krankykat (Member # 2410) on :
JUST A QUOTE NOTE:
quote:Justa quote:
"Interestingly, Kranky agreed with me but you don't see Lisa tearing into him for agreeing."
[quote]Krank quote:
"I definitely agree with you that I “can't think of a first world nation who could (and/or should) justifiably claim superiority."
About the only thing I agree on with Justa is that. Justa bet that Lisa would not disagree on that point, but I side with Lisa's position on justa about everything else.
Krank
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Well I don't know how I feel about that as quoted. But Lisa is the only person on this board I've ever seen advocate a form of, or something very similar to, genocide.
Weasel words. I've never done any such thing. Your "or something very similar to" is a way of accusing me of having done something that you know I didn't do.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I've seen you suggest that they should be forced marched out of their homes, and if they refuse, whatever means necessary should be taken to move them, and you don't much care if they die when they hit the border.
That's the closest to genocide I've ever seen anyone on this board say before.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:I've seen you suggest that they should be forced marched out of their homes, and if they refuse, whatever means necessary should be taken to move them, and you don't much care if they die when they hit the border.
That's the closest to genocide I've ever seen anyone on this board say before.
That's really not genocide, or close to it.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Alright, I'll amend it to "potential, probable gateway to genocide." Just to be fair. Depending on how such a scenario were to play out, it would indeed be a very real genocide.
On the scale of 1-10 of crimes against humanity, I'd put genocide at a 10. I'd put what Lisa has suggested at maybe an 8.5, possibly an 8.0. I'd put an average murder at a 1.
I consider it fairly close. But I admit that's just me.
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
quote:Originally posted by Krankykat: JUST A QUOTE NOTE:
quote:Justa quote:
"Interestingly, Kranky agreed with me but you don't see Lisa tearing into him for agreeing."
Krank quote:
"I definitely agree with you that I “can't think of a first world nation who could (and/or should) justifiably claim superiority."
About the only thing I agree on with Justa is that. Justa bet that Lisa would not disagree on that point, but I side with Lisa's position on justa about everything else.
Krank
Then you have another post you need to re-word:
quote:Originally posted by Krankykat:
quote:Originally posted by Jutsa:
Suicide missions are borne of a cultivated desperation.
Yup, and the cultivation is being done by radical Islam and its clerics.
What's the "yup, and the cultivation" there for? What in the quote of mine that YOU used are you agreeing with, Kranky?
If you don't agree, that's cool. I'm just letting you know you might want to change your post. I've already detailed more on that particular sentence you've quoted, and based it on written and vocal interviews I've seen/heard from people who actually engage in the activity. Given the alternative to choose between those testimonies and the opinions of someone thousands of miles away in a completely different environment, I'm somewhat compelled to put more credence in the person who is there. It isn't some touchy-feely psychoanalysis thing, it is more visceral than that, a grand delusion based on specific prompting by others to perform the deed.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:But these people aren't suicidal. They are convinced to celebrate their 'worthiness'. Their resolve.
But they do commit suicide, even if they believe they will be immediately ushured into a new celebrated life in the kingdom of heaven.
quote:Those (the ones in Israel/Palestine and Iraq) definitely start disillusioned and idealistic, however they don't have to start out desperate.
I think desperation comes in many forms.
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
quote:Originally posted by Teshi: But they do commit suicide, even if they believe they will be immediately ushured into a new celebrated life in the kingdom of heaven.
There is suicide and there is sacrifice. Which do you really think they believe they are doing?
quote:I think desperation comes in many forms.
I agree. Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote:But they do commit suicide, even if they believe they will be immediately ushured into a new celebrated life in the kingdom of heaven.
I agree with Justa on this. If a person runs in front of a truck to push somebody else out of the way, I think it would be silly to call them suicidal. They were motivated by noble values. I think that suicide bombers feel that their actions are as heroic as the person who runs in front of the truck.
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
Not to say that such feelings aren't born of manipulated delusion. I've already come close to being called a traitor in one thread. Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amanecer:
quote:But they do commit suicide, even if they believe they will be immediately ushured into a new celebrated life in the kingdom of heaven.
I agree with Justa on this. If a person runs in front of a truck to push somebody else out of the way, I think it would be silly to call them suicidal. They were motivated by noble values. I think that suicide bombers feel that their actions are as heroic as the person who runs in front of the truck.
Except that the explosive device is being used as a way to kill many infidels without suffering capture by those same infidels. As concealing weapons, just isn't working anymore, they explode themselves as its MUCH harder to see it coming. To more accurately use your analogy,
They see the truck coming and know that by attempting to save the life of a person in the path of the truck they will likely be killed and go to heaven, so they act.
They may think the act of dying seals the deal for them getting into heaven, but I am pretty sure even according to THEIR theology God wants people to live his gospel not die for it. Its much harder to live a life of obedience then it is to throw your life away in one grand noble act of sacrifice.
The early Christians had this problem, where people actually antagonized the Roman authorities so that they could be thrown into the fire or put in the arena with wild animals. The belief being that to die as a martyr assured one of entrance into heaven.
The Christians got over it, it is to be hoped these Muslims can do the same.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
(I mean, more than a pterodactyl, or a broach, or a hat.)
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
Awesome reference, Storm Saxon.
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
Honestly, I think that this is far more disturbing than the original video.
Posted by SoaPiNuReYe (Member # 9144) on :
It's the radical clerics that are the root of these things. The young and uneducated are easily swayed by their powerful orations and eventually they get brainwashed. You cannot really blame the individual bombers as much as the clerics. Most of the people just come to the clerics thinking it will strengthen their relationship with God, much as some people go to Youth Group activities that are held out of church. When they start to listen to the clerics then the problem starts. The whole concept of suicide bombing is based on the idea of afterlife, and the clerics know that. That is their form of control.
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
Interesting, but I didn't see any three year old saying stuff like, "They (Jews) are apes and pigs." Just a whole bunch of old people with closed minds and rotten hearts. I consider instituting blind hatred on a child far more frightening and disturbing than "darksided people".
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
quote:Originally posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion:
quote:Originally posted by Jutsa Notha Name: Altáriël,
Interesting, but I didn't see any three year old saying stuff like, "They (Jews) are apes and pigs." Just a whole bunch of old people with closed minds and rotten hearts. I consider instituting blind hatred on a child far more frightening and disturbing than "darksided people".
Oh, so it's only when they say "apes and pigs" that televising hatred is wrong. My mistake. I didn't realize you were being so specific.
You should look up Westboro Baptist Church some time. Then do a YouTube search for "Jesus Camp" to see some more heavy indoctrination. There are plenty of examples of these hate-mongers spreading their doctrine to children. Funny how it's just "people with closed minds and rotten hearts" when it's in the figurative mirror.
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jutsa Notha Name:
quote:Originally posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion:
quote:Originally posted by Jutsa Notha Name: Altáriël,
Interesting, but I didn't see any three year old saying stuff like, "They (Jews) are apes and pigs." Just a whole bunch of old people with closed minds and rotten hearts. I consider instituting blind hatred on a child far more frightening and disturbing than "darksided people".
Oh, so it's only when they say "apes and pigs" that televising hatred is wrong. My mistake. I didn't realize you were being so specific.
You should look up Westboro Baptist Church some time. Then do a YouTube search for "Jesus Camp" to see some more heavy indoctrination. There are plenty of examples of these hate-mongers spreading their doctrine to children. Funny how it's just "people with closed minds and rotten hearts" when it's in the figurative mirror.
Ok, what's your beef?
I'm just saying that it's far more disturbing to see hatred being taught to an innocent child than it is to see it played out in adults.
You seem to be bashing on Christianity because it seems like you think I was bashing on Islam, which is SO not what I was doing.
You're showing me these things as if I didn't live in Republican Southern California where you can find a Jesus freak in your front porch every day.
EDIT: I have also watched many responses and I think this this was probably the most respectful, and mature.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Say what you will about Reverend Phelps, I don't recall him blowing up any pizzarias lately.
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Say what you will about Reverend Phelps, I don't recall him blowing up any pizzarias lately.
That too...
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
I also watched this one, and sadly I find it so true. The man here talks about how we just go from part A to part B all our lives...he can explain it better than me. link Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Ah, smug anti-Americans.
Posted by Krankykat (Member # 2410) on :
Stormy:
The article clearly indicates Ahmadinejad’s failure as a leader, economically and politically (internationally and locally), in the eyes of the Iranian people as well as China, Russia, , the EU and the UN, Iranian college students, the Grand Ayatollah Hossein Ali Montazeri, and Iran's supreme leader, the Ayatollah Khamenei. It says that he hates the US and Israel and he has failed to “deliver on his promises” to the Iranian people.
The article also says that "People [Iranian] say it's Ahmadinejad who's the problem. Even the supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, favors some kind of deal. But this is Ahmadinejad's flagship issue: People [Iranian] like the way he has stood up to the Americans and he isn't going to throw that away, (his downfall?)" a Western diplomat argues. He was even warned by Grand Ayatollah Hossein Ali Montazeri not to provoke “Iran’s enemies” (Western powers, the US and Israel).
Khamenei’s newspaper, the Islamic Republic, even warned: "Our advice to the president is to speak about the nuclear issue only during important national occasions, stop provoking aggressive powers like the United States (THE ENEMY!) and concentrate more on the daily needs of the people, those who voted for you on your promises."
Clearly the article shows that Ahmadinejad is a radical Muslim who hates the US and Israel, and the clerics, who are in charge of the country are in agreement. Ahmadinejad is a bully who desires a nuclear bomb at his disposal. The clerics and the people of Iran seem to agree that .Ahmadinejad is out of step with what is best for their country right now. Iran could be a stabilizing force in the middle-east if they rid themselves of this despotic leader and work to normalize peace with the west. Only time will tell.
It should be noted that in Iran and other Islamic countries ultimately base their political beliefs and government on the Koran’s religious doctrine, its dogma and jihad. There is no practice of “making no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” and there is truly no belief that “Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.”
EDIT: On the positive side "So far, Ahmadinejad has firmly rejected the idea that the sanctions could hurt his country. On Sunday, while delivering a speech on his next budget to the Parliament, he argued that that the price of tomatoes was lower than reported by some people.
[ March 30, 2007, 02:57 AM: Message edited by: Krankykat ]
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Ah, smug anti-Americans.
Aw. I agree with the eye roll half-way for the first video but I think the one I linked to last was actually making a good point.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Hat]](graemlins/hat.gif)
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
was lower than reported by some people.