quote:

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Can we rebuild civilization? Can we make a lightbulb or computers?

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quote:

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Can we create a literary collection?

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quote:

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Can we create Art? Music?

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quote:

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Can we rediscover science?

---

quote:

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Will the old religions of the world be represented? Changed?

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quote:

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Can we produce the modern "comforts" of the former age?

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No way.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
Those weren't really questions I expected to be answered, except by way of responses about what your (plural you) contributions would be to the society.

We are a diverse group, with many talents. We might be surprised at what certain ones of us would contribute and are capable of.

It's just supposed to be fun.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
I had fun answering the questions you asked.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
Good!
 

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Posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick (Member # 9302) on :
 
I would play and write music.
I would try to help teach and learn at the same time.
I would give Hatrackers hugs, and try to help them get through the pain of losing everyone they loved and the pressure of having to rebuild civilization. At least I would try, but I'm not sure if I'm a strong enough person to do so.
I would do my best to represent my faith, Maronite Catholic. I would also try to preserve and teach the English, French and Arabic languages.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
Oh shucks, I don't want anybody sad. Bring your families.
 

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Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
 
I would lead the pogroms to make ensure that our new civilisation is built on a rational-scientific basis.
 

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Posted by Sister Annie (Member # 8480) on :
 
I would rebuild the world through graphic design.

Of course, a heck of a lot of people have to spend aeons building stuff up before I'm relevant.
 

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Posted by Griffin (Member # 7166) on :
 
Can we rebuild civilization?
...no more condoms!

Can we make a lightbulb or computers?
Yes, but not energy efficent.

Can we create a literary collection?
Sure, but it would be from Ca - Ca. That could get old.

Can we create Art?

('.')
-------
-----
I I
[] []

Music?
"I wanna roll with the gangstas
But so far they all think I'm too White and nerdy"

Can we rediscover science?
no, we would have to Brain Drain www.science.org for that.

Will the old religions of the world be represented?
Yes, In God We Trust
Changed?
Viewed differently maybe, but no, they wouldn't change over night.

Can we produce the modern "comforts" of the former age?
We can't, but they can

What will we decide to change?
More Robots = less work.


What will your contributions be?
I'll help with the first question. :grin:
 

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Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
 
Oops. Sister Annie was me.
 

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Posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick (Member # 9302) on :
 
What about friends? Or countrymen? Or celebrities?
I know that's not the point of the thread (and I do believe that there are enough talented and diverse people on Hatrack to represent a good chance) but still.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
No celebrities! We'll have to have all new celebrities.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

quote:

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Oh shucks, I don't want anybody sad.

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quote:

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No celebrities! We'll have to have all new celebrities.

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Do we have to have new celebrities?
 

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Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
 
The question isn't could Hatrack do it, but should Hatrack do it? For all we know, Hatrack was the cause of the fall of civilization.
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
I'll be a celebrity!

-pH
 

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Posted by Snail (Member # 9958) on :
 
Well, all my relatives will probably have survived anyway as they're not part of civilization as such, instead they're small invertebrates who carry their homes with them while eating lettuce and producing slime in gardens.

Hmm... what I would do? I'd reinvent the French cuisine but leave out the bits that use escargots.

Also, I'd help hunt mammoths. I mean, if there's no civilization, then surely there ought to be mammoths? What's the point of getting rid of it otherwise?

I'd collect clams from the sea bottom.

I'd built boats. Because I've always wanted to sail them. I could rediscover America with the Hatrackers from this side of the pond.

I'd invent the wheel.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I'll keep us from getting cholera.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
I'll reinvent the crochet hook.

Will someone please figure out how to make yarn and thread?
 

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Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
 
I would devote as much time as possible to repopulating the earth.

When I'm not doing that I would help in the recreation/entertainment department by means of music and organizing sports activities. Unfortunately the rest of my abilities are poorly suited for non-civilized environments, well, except for my primary duty that I listed above.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
pfresh, maybe we could build a BETTER society.

Doesn't anybody know how to refine metals and make a circuit board?
 

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Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
I think scraping together survival will take precidence over art, music and culture.

We will all be farmers, fumbling and stumbling and trying to grow enough to eat over the winter.

We will all be hunters. Because we will fail to grow enough more times than not. Especially early on.

We will all be seemstresses, carpenters, and scavengers. We will all build homes and barns.

We will also all be soldiers, ready to defend what we've rebuilt from those with more might than forsight.

Then maybe, in the evening, when it's too dark to work, we can all sit around the fire and tell stories and sing.

Pix
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
Then somebody really needs to invent the garden plow.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

quote:

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I would devote as much time as possible to repopulating the earth.

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quote:

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Doesn't anybody know how to refine metals and make a circuit board?

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quote:

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This is why we can't have nice things.

---

 

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Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
 
Also, I know how to butcher and process chickens. And I can milk cows and goats.
 

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Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 
Can we rebuild civilization?

We can certainly try, and I intend to succeed.

Can we make a lightbulb or computers?
Depends on whether materials such as schematics and electrical components survived the cataclism that destroyed civilization in the first place.

Can we create a literary collection?
We could creat our own literary collection yes, logs from this forum could to some extent be consider literature.

Can we create Art? Music?
As long as human beings can sing/hum/whistle there will always be music to fall back on. I would be greatly interested in the music department. Art, I'd leave to the hatrackers with that talent.

Can we rediscover science?
We can certainly preserve some of the known truths of science, hopefully our faulty memories won't modify anything crucial. E=MC³?

Will the old religions of the world be represented? Changed?
Unless God himself came down and appointed a hatracker to restore his religion, the religion I subscribe to would effectively be deadl. I would have trouble reconciling the fact God promised in his scriptures that after Joseph Smith the truth and authority of God would never depart from earth again.

Still I would attempt to work with others in establishing a system of ethics and codes of conduct that would at least allow us to live together in peace.

Can we produce the modern "comforts" of the former age?
I would immedietly find somebodies hemp stash, harvest some seeds, grow some of my own, make some rope out of it and construct a hammock. I think that is the first crucial step towards reconstructing the comforts of a modern age.

What will we decide to change?

Well I can't say what WE would do, but *I* would probably setup my lodgings very close to wherever the Card Clan sets up. Lucky for them many of THEIR family are hatrackers. Since my wife is now dead I would probably spend some time mourning, building and creating my own home to take my mind off her death, down the road I'd probably remarry after running the gamut of cute single hatrackettes.

I'd probably nominate Dagonee to be some sort of chief justice of whatever judicial body we deem neccesary to establish. Chris Bridges would run the newspaper or rag, with Puffy in charge of the entertainment section

Claudia Therese would be head physician

KOM would be cheif scientist in residence, Blayne would probably be his henchman.

And I just realized I've painted myself into a corner as I don't have enough time to devote to giving everyone I think I know enough about a role in this society. I am not even sure what I would do. Perhaps its best to let somebody else decide what I would do.
 

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Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
 

quote:

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That means spending most of your time farming in order to feed your young'uns.

---

I'm not sure why we couldn't separate into specialized groups pretty quickly. A lot of organization would be needed; we would need strong leaders, but I think we would already have those. We wouldn't need to reinvent the many breakthroughs of the past like agriculture, domesticated animals, and tools like the wheel. It may take a little time to recreate some of the things, but at least we already have an idea of how things work.

---

Has everything been destroyed including the farms that exist now? Are the factories destroyed beyond hope of repair? I guess I was assuming that we would be able to pick up and put back together the pieces of the destroyed civilization, as opposed to having to start from scratch on a previously uninhabited island.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
Your wife is still alive! (And kinda ticked off about your running of the gamut.) (Maybe you missed my concession that our families survived.)
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
Wait-- who are we calling members of Hatrack?

Because there are REAL members, and there are people who post on this board.

I need to know!

I'm the only Jatraquero in my town, so I figure I'd have enough food to last a long while.

Avoiding Jatraquero picnics would be right out. I'm afraid I WOULD have to head north to meet with Dagonee, Karl, kwea, Katharina, MattB, et al...It's only a sixty mile walk or so from my home to the Capital; I think I can do that in a couple days if I'm bicycling.

What's the infrastructure look like? Are the roads passable? That makes a big difference...

Once at the Capitol, we'd invade all the petting zoos in the area and "liberate" the livestock. Instant healthy herds! And since kat works at the Library of Congress, anything we don't know about animals we can figure out by reading.

We'll turn the Mall into a huge communal garden. I'll bring my beekeeping knowledge to bear, and we'll have the most fruitful garden anywhere. Plus, honey!

See, this wouldn't be bad at all. I mean, I might go insane for a couple weeks, but I'd make it through. So would all of you.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

quote:

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I would immedietly find somebodies hemp stash, harvest some seeds, grow some of my own, make some rope out of it and construct a hammock. I think that is the first crucial step towards reconstructing the comforts of a modern age.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:

quote:

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No celebrities! We'll have to have all new celebrities.

---

Do we have to have new celebrities?

---

Sure. We've already got them. They'll be people like TomDavidson, and Papa Moose, and TanteShvester, and Rivka, and Dagonee. (A lawyer celebrity? <shudder>)

And the Cards will be our Royal Family.

I can see the screen name now: "A Prince Named Rat Named Dog".

If we could scavenge what's already here, like in "The Stand", hubby could make computers. But someone else would have to get electricity working first.

I could be a seamstress ... I'd have to practice a lot first. Wait. Only after we've got electricity running again - I'm not making everyone's clothes by hand.

[ March 13, 2007, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: JennaDean ]
 

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Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
Even if every store and factory is destroyed, we can find what we need in Landfills. People throw away the nicest things.

I was going under the assumption we'd have access to metal that can be easily beaten into a plow, seeds for grain and vegitables, domesticated animals, a fertile climate (Half Moon Bay California is *perfect* with a year round growing season) but no comforts of civilization. No houses, guns, computers, cars, electricity, etc.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
When I said hatrack, I meant anybody who has an account here.

And I was kinda thinking that we'd just magically be in the same area... But whatever... I'm not the law maker. Although I think I'd like to be. But that should be a community effort.
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
Hmm... I didn't realize that our families survived.

Still the plan doesn't change much. Head toward the civilization centers, help out as much as you can. Try to keep an even temper.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by camus:
[QB]

quote:

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That means spending most of your time farming in order to feed your young'uns.

---

I'm not sure why we couldn't separate into specialized groups pretty quickly.

---

quote:

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A lot of organization would be needed; we would need strong leaders, but I think we would already have those.

---

quote:

---

a fertile climate (Half Moon Bay California is *perfect* with a year round growing season)

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Scott R:
I'm an impeccable follower. But finding a leader who is worthy of me is a smidge more difficult.

---

That could be the mantra of bad followers.
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 

quote:

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If all the people were gone, I'd move to California in a heartbeat.

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quote:

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Most of the tractors are pretty damaged and need some serious repair.

---

quote:

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So you're going to try to convince somebody else to spend their time farming to feed your kids so that you can spend most of your time having sex? Good luck with that.

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quote:

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When I said hatrack, I meant anybody who has an account here.

---

quote:

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And I do think we have enough good followers. There are a lot of people that lurk here, and I would assume many of these ones do not have the dominant type of personality where they would feel the need to lead others.

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quote:

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My point was that I don't have many of the skills required to create a civilization. In actuality, I would be quite content doing whatever was necessary, whether that be farming, building, cleaning, plumbing, or waste removal. I just wouldn't be particularly good at any specific thing.

---

quote:

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Just because you don't have a dominant type of personality doesn't mean you're a good follower.

---

Fair enough. But I do think we would have enough good followers to at least recognize the need to attain the basic suvivial necessities.

Although, I can also see every responsibility turning into a semantic debate over what is meant by "farming" and such.

quote:

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I've got to say, I did not get that message at all from your earlier joke about repopulation.

---

Well, my point was that my skills are not particularly well suited for non-civilization, which is what I tried to imply with the last sentence of that post. I see where you're coming from, though, so I'll add "communication" to my list of things to not be in charge of if I ever intend on creating a civilization. Although, I must say that trying to explain a lame joke doesn't usually result in anything good.
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
I vote Slash the Berzerker for Chieftan.

He's perfect. (read: never around, lazy, and geographically far away from everyone)
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

quote:

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Although, I must say that trying to explain a lame joke doesn't usually result in anything good.

---

quote:

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I vote Slash the Berzerker for Chieftan.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Scott R:
Avoiding Jatraquero picnics would be right out. I'm afraid I WOULD have to head north to meet . . . kwea . . .

---

quote:

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Could Hatrack Rebuild Civilization?

---

quote:

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Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
Heh. Try to leave and we put you in the slave-labor camp. *eyes mph menacingly*

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quote:

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We can pretty much rule out fossil fuels and nuclear energy because way to much infrastructure is needed to mine/drill, refine etc.

---

quote:

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I'm an engineer and can do alot of things

---

I'm inherently suspicious of confident people. But it won't matter-- engineering type people are always the first to die in apocalyptic situations.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
We can scavenge materials, but largely have to rely on skill to get things moving.

I suppose if we can scavenge materials, we could also raid a library, no matter how demolished. But that kinda takes some of the fun out of it.

Survival isn't always fun, I guess.
 

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Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Before we start worrying about lightbulbs and computers, we need to think about where we are going to get the energy to run them. We can pretty much rule out fossil fuels and nuclear energy because way to much infrastructure is needed to mine/drill, refine etc. Solar photovoltaics are also out for the same reason unless would could manage to scavenge them from somewhere. Solar thermal and passive solar would be important. Wind power and hydropower would be obvious places to start because the technologies are alot simplier in most ways but they are only intermittent. Could we scavenge batteries from all the dead automobiles to store electricity for when the wend stops blowing?

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quote:

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just the act of trying to survive renders alot of religous practices and dogma probly irrelevent just because of the sheer effort of reconstruction

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quote:

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Originally posted by Scott R:
Why did I say kwea? I meant kwsni.

quote:

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I'm an engineer and can do alot of things

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I'm inherently suspicious of confident people. But it won't matter-- engineering type people are always the first to die in apocalyptic situations.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:

quote:

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just the act of trying to survive renders alot of religous practices and dogma probly irrelevent just because of the sheer effort of reconstruction

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I'm not sure what you mean by this. People generally tend to become less religious when life gets easier, not when it gets harder. I would imagine that religion would become more important to people who are struggling to survive, not less.

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quote:

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Originally posted by JennaDean:

quote:

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Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:

quote:

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No celebrities! We'll have to have all new celebrities.

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Do we have to have new celebrities?

---

Sure. We've already got them. They'll be people like TomDavidson, and Papa Moose, and TanteShvester, and Rivka, and Dagonee.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
Has she aside in her various alternate realities been in an post apocyptic enviroment yet?

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quote:

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Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
One thing I thought of is that our Orthodox Jews would probably have to become vegetarians...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
It depends on alot of circumstances, mostly on how much effort is needed to survive.

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quote:

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Do you have an example of a people who abandoned religion it became tough to survive? I can't think of any.

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quote:

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Do you have an example of a people who abandoned religion when it became tough to survive? I can't think of any.

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quote:

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41 But behold, because of the exceedingly great length of the war between the Nephites and the Lamanites many had become hardened, because of the exceedingly great length of the war; and many were softened because of their afflictions, insomuch that they did humble themselves before God, even in the depth of humility.

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quote:

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Do you have an example of a people who abandoned religion it became tough to survive? I can't think of any.

---

*A people* being a considerable group of people, not isolated examples of one to a handful.

Also it would certainly be insane if we gleaned our reality without the television telling us what to believe
 

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Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 

quote:

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As for myself what I would do when the shell shock faded would be to help in every way possible in reconstruction along socialist principles, free market entrepreneurship was all well and good but now we would need to pool together our resources and in the most efficient way possible utilize themtowards not only rebuilding the economy but also society, its destruction is like writing a blank check that will allow us to write up a new society, and hopefully one that will be better then before, the basic equality of human beings may possibly through mob violence mean people forgetting who and what we are so we will have to, must to, work together as one to build a new future we can all be proud of.

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quote:

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Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
Maybe Blayne could take those who agree with him and form their own commune and leave those who don't want to share their stuff with him alone.

But then, if his goal is to mold society to how he thinks it should be, having a competing viewpoint surviving out there might work against his goals.

---

And thus we see within moments factions have already begun to develop within the perfect hatrack civilization.

Why don't we just start creating boarders, and divide ourselves into competing tribes?

Porter you just killed our perfect society.

 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
Hey, I started this thing. If people get too crazy, I'll change the rules so that they didn't survive after all!
 

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Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
MPH: If they have someone elses labour to fall back on, they're not going to produce as much. If society is there to carry you, you don't work as hard. It's human nature. If it's work or die, it tends to be a different story.

When they're starving they'll come demanding from us.

I don't think it'll take long for Blayne to starve.
 

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Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
BB: Blayne killed it by asserting he had a right to other people's things.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by camus:
On a side thought, are there any examples where people representing many different religions were mixed together and then completely isolated from outside influence for an extended period of time? I'm wondering if religion would primarily create smaller communties within the whole that would eventually isolate themselves as soon as they become independent, or would there tend to be a diffusion of religious ideas and doctrines until there was basically one homogeneous religion, or some combination of those extremes, and if there are any examples of this happening?

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Pixiest:
BB: Blayne killed it by asserting he had a right to other people's things.

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No No No! We can simply put Blayne in the stocks for a day and still maintain the perfection of our society
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Personally, I think that some sort of communal living would drastically increase the chances of surviving. Anybody who insisted on strict capitalist ideals of only getting what you yourself worked for would have a much lower standard of living.

quote:

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Hey, I started this thing. If people get too crazy, I'll change the rules so that they didn't survive after all!

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quote:

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Originally posted by BlackBlade:

quote:

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Originally posted by The Pixiest:
BB: Blayne killed it by asserting he had a right to other people's things.

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No No No! We can simply put Blayne in the stocks for a day and still maintain the perfection of our society

---

What was that thing that every village needs?
 

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Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
BB: Well, remember without rule of law people's baser instincts take over. Public humiliation might lead to private revenge.

Even Banishment might lead to his return in the middle of the night to murder us in our beds.

It would be better if we could just convence him that he has to work to survive and barter for what he needs... rather than just have society take care of him.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
What's MCP?
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Master Control Program from the movie Tron.
 

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Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
 

quote:

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Why don't we just start creating boarders, and divide ourselves into competing tribes?

---

quote:

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Originally posted by BlackBlade:

Porter you just killed our perfect society.

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quote:

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So long as they were making a genetic contribution (however they chose to do that) to the future of humanity, I don't see it causing too much of a problem.

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quote:

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MPH: It all depends on the size of our society. Less than a hundred and communal living will work for a while. More than that and the deadbeat population becomes too great.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Katarain:
Pixiest, I missed the post about gay marriage. What can I search for to find it?

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It seems to have disappeared and/or been edited. The gist was that we'd all die from starvation while we argued over gay marriage.
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:

quote:

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We can pretty much rule out fossil fuels and nuclear energy because way to much infrastructure is needed to mine/drill, refine etc.

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I disagree. It would take quite a while to use up what's already been mined, drilled, refined, etc., especially if we were careful about it.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Icarus:

quote:

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Could Hatrack Rebuild Civilization?

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Puhlease. We'd all starve to death arguing about whether our homosexuals should be allowed to marry each other.

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quote:

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Unless civilization were destroyed by something like neutron bombs that killed of 99.9% of the population but left all the infrastucture in tact, its foolish to assume that we would have access to fossil fuels.

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quote:

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Why don't we just start creating boarders, and divide ourselves into competing tribes?

---

quote:

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Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:

quote:

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Unless civilization were destroyed by something like neutron bombs that killed of 99.9% of the population but left all the infrastucture in tact, its foolish to assume that we would have access to fossil fuels.

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That's pretty much what I've been assuming. :shrug:

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I guess I don't consider that the "utter destruction of civilization". That is an instantaneous dramatic reduction of the population. Infrastructure is perhaps the most important hallmark of civilization.
 

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Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
 
My contribution above and beyond the baby and food making would be mead. The new world will not be without this lovely, easy to make beverage.
 

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Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
 
Pixiest we are not stealing your stuff, Materialism would be long dead and buried so I doubt you would have "stuff" to want to keep, whatever small trinkets you have, like a pretty stone or a toy would not be something that contributes to survival and I doubt it would even come up, but if you had a collection of books on farming, or owned a combat knife which we could use to strip an animal of meat, or for that matter a hunting rifle, Im certain you wouldnt be so stubburn as to claim to own something that frankly is a must for others to have a chance at surviving, others would come during the night to kill you and steal it if you were to be so selfish as to demand services for anything you might happen to be carrying or is capable of making. Everyone would be freely making their labours or tools freely availiable for everyone else who needs them to aid in survival why would you hold out? The chances of survival and even better the standard of living would and should be higher if everyone lived by Socialist economic principles, Darwinian Capitalist principles would slow down reconstruction, adds numerous middle men for process of requisitioning and allocating resources, and will LOWER the standard of living as the reconstruction is slowed down.

If you make bread and someone else makes bread, if you both give bread freely for the community to partake in after working, we are all better off, if you demand we pay a service for it aside from the service we are already doing in addition it is selfish and capitalistic greed at work.
 

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Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
I've been assuming something like massive bombing followed by plague. Gets the population AND the infrastructure.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

quote:

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Infrastructure is perhaps the most important hallmark of civilization.

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quote:

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Im certain you wouldnt be so stubburn as to claim to own something that frankly is a must for others to have a chance at surviving, others would come during the night to kill you and steal it if you were to be so selfish as to demand services for anything you might happen to be carrying or is capable of making.

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quote:

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Im certain you wouldnt be so stubburn as to claim to own something that frankly is a must for others to have a chance at surviving, others would come during the night to kill you and steal it if you were to be so selfish as to demand services for anything you might happen to be carrying or is capable of making.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Pixiest:
It all depends on the size of our society. Less than a hundred and communal living will work for a while. More than that and the deadbeat population becomes too great.

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quote:

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Under Blayne's system, there's really no drawback to making a hammock and sleeping the day away. After all, if you worked to grow grain and made yourself some bread, I'm entitled to some of it.

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I think this civilization would be too small, and the bureaucracy too simple, for someone to get away with that. I'd assume that failure to contribute would be a crime punishable by hard labor.

--j_k
 

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Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
 
Rivka's only responsibility is to make children as brilliant as she is.
 

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Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
They borrow my book and I don't get it back. Now I'm going to starve.

They borrow my hunting rifle and break it. Now we're all hosed. (Even if they don't break it, Ammunition is limited and we should be learning how to hunt with bow and arrow)

They eat my food, now I don't have enough to survive the winter.

I'm not interested in shiny rocks. Give me a bag of seed rice or wheat. Give me a cow (or a cow and a bull!) Or help me till my field. Trade, Barter, not socialism.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
Blayne, seriously, you'll have to find like-minded individuals and go live somewhere else.

Because if you or others like you try something like that with my family, you will be eliminated. In the permanent way.

It may not be pretty, but these are serious times, and until we can build a prison, there's no real good way to deal with violent, dangerous, and unreasonable people.
 

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Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
 
I think it would take a long time before we had the ability to punish people with anything other than shame or banishment.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
Rivka's only responsibility is to make children as brilliant as she is.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Amanecer:
I think it would take a long time before we had the ability to punish people with anything other than shame or banishment.

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quote:

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if you have a gun we will use it, if it breaks we will fix it

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quote:

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Who's with me?

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quote:

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There are also not nearly enough people on Hatrack willing and experienced in doing violence.

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quote:

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Knock yourself out, but no thanks. I'll be a farmer and raise a whole passel of kids.

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quote:

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We would have the ability to punish with death, but perhaps that's not punishment, since you can't learn anything from it.

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quote:

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I don't think most Hatrackers are tough enough-mentally or physically-to cut the mustard.

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quote:

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Who's with me?

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Ohhh... sounds tempting. I'm considering.
 

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Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
 
If Blayne fixes my gun I'll let him use it.

Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Blayne is starting with the general assumption that the majority of people in his neocivi already agree that universal sharing is a good thing, so it wouldn't be taking, it really would be sharing. If he is suggesting that he, or a small percentage of the majority, could sway the whole to his way of thinking, well, I think he'd be unpleasantly suprised.
 

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Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
 
I expect that any civilization-destroying disaster will kill me. Since we're assuming for the purposes of this thread that I, being a Hatracker, will survive the initial cataclysm, I guess I'd die soon after.

Most of us depend on modern society to keep us alive. What happens when the myopic among us run out of contact lens solution or break their glasses? My eyesight is bad enough that I would be unable to recognize people at any sort of distance, let alone forage or hunt. And the skills I have require the support of a technologically advanced society in order for me to be productive. Add to that the fact that I have a lot less energy than most people, and it's almost certain that I would require more resources than I could produce in order to stay alive.

So here's a question: are we going to let the less-capable among us starve? I'm not talking about choosing to be lazy, but inability to work. Also, if we have a limited supply of medical equipment, how will we ration it?
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 

quote:

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What do you mean by violence, (I've found that I often misunderstand people when they use that word.) and why do you think that it would be a necessary survival skill?

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quote:

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I think people are amazing at rising to the occasion. If we had good leaders, and I can think of a few excellent candidates, I think most would be able to make it. There's no doubt the transition would be rough though.

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quote:

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So here's a question: are we going to let the less-capable among us starve? I'm not talking about choosing to be lazy, but inability to work. Also, if we have a limited supply of medical equipment, how will we ration it?

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quote:

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I think Blayne is starting with the general assumption that the majority of people in his neocivi already agree that universal sharing is a good thing, so it wouldn't be taking, it really would be sharing.

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quote:

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Better defined as ruthlessness.

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quote:

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Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:

quote:

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I think Blayne is starting with the general assumption that the majority of people in his neocivi already agree that universal sharing is a good thing, so it wouldn't be taking, it really would be sharing.

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Yes, that would still be taking, unless the person you're taking it from agrees.

You cannot agree to share my stuff without my consent, no matter who agrees with you. That's not how sharing works.

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quote:

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I guess I was assuming that there would be some sort of democracy where the majority decides the rule. It's odd that I rebel against that in the pre-cataclysm days.

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quote:

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What happens when the myopic among us run out of contact lens solution or break their glasses? My eyesight is bad enough that I would be unable to recognize people at any sort of distance, let alone forage or hunt.

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quote:

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I define violence as I used it there as the use of physical force to achieve one's goals, usually against another person, animal, or thing. For instance, staying up late at night with a rifle to watch over your herd and shoot wolves or other predators that try and eat their fill. Shooting an unnanounced trespasser onto your family's land at night, in self-defense-and shooting to kill, none of this Hollywood shooting to wound nonsense.

And most especially the willingness to use pre-emptive violence against those who would use violence against you and your family, and have stated so openly in the past.

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quote:

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I'd do the first two, no problem.

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quote:

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I suppose so, but I'd prefer banishing somebody to killing them.

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quote:

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Originally posted by camus:

quote:

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I suppose so, but I'd prefer banishing somebody to killing them.

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But what if banishment is essentially a death sentence, meaning that the chance of survival is very small when completely isolated? I'm not sure if I'd be willing to do that either. Maybe a temporary banishment, or a banishment from certain benefits of being a part of the community.

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quote:

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But no. I'm not willing to [edit: kill someone]. But I'd be willing to bet that there's someone willing to. Maybe I'll be on their side.

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quote:

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Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:

quote:

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I'd do the first two, no problem.

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No problem for you. But a lot of this community would have problems them.

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quote:

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If you're willing to support the killing of those who don't submit, how are you any better than the person who swings the club?

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quote:

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Originally posted by El JT de Spang:

quote:

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Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:

quote:

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I'd do the first two, no problem.

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No problem for you. But a lot of this community would have problems them.

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They'd have a problem with me protecting my herd from predators and defending myself against trespassers? That doesn't sound like a community, that sounds like a monastery.

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quote:

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But what if banishment is essentially a death sentence, meaning that the chance of survival is very small when completely isolated? I'm not sure if I'd be willing to do that either.

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quote:

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Man, I'm thinking about this in a whole different light. I'm thinking of one person in a new-built civilization refusing to share when sharing is the tenant on which the civilization survives.

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quote:

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Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:

quote:

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Originally posted by El JT de Spang:

quote:

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Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:

quote:

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I'd do the first two, no problem.

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No problem for you. But a lot of this community would have problems them.

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They'd have a problem with me protecting my herd from predators and defending myself against trespassers? That doesn't sound like a community, that sounds like a monastery.

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I meant that there are many people, myself included, who would have difficulties killing others, especially people, to protect our own stuff.

We're all used to think of deadly force as something that the government wields, not us. It would take quite a while to come to grips with the fact that if I don't kill that interloper, there's a decent chance that I don't live to see sundown, but if I do kill him, there's a decent chance that I'm killing somebody unnecessarily.

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quote:

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I suppose people could use artificial insemination to get around most of the sexual morality and sexual orientation issues, but pregnancy is dangerous for women.

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We couldn't use AI for pregnancy, at least not for very long.

In a situation like you describe where population growth is essential for the community, I imagine that having large number of children would become very important to people's social standing, and we'd see a reemergance of stigmas against the unmarried and childless.

Well, possibly not, but I don't see how the community could survive past a handful of generations unless something like that happens.
 

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Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
 
MPH, I said that I suppose that Blayne was starting with this assumption. And I happen to think that if it were the case it would probably work pretty well, better than most other options. But that's just my opinion. Obviously, almost everyone here doesn't agree and so the assumption is not valid. So yes, of course I agree that neither he nor anyone else should kill someone to take something that they don't share with him.
 

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Posted by Stray (Member # 4056) on :
 
I know how to spin wool into yarn, and how to knit. Once, with my pupils still dilated after an eye appointment, I discovered that I can still knit even if I can't focus my eyes And I think spinning would work much the same, a lot of it can be done solely by touch, or mostly touch and just a little bit of sight. So I think even if I lost my glasses and contacts I could still contribute in some way.

I take a daily medication for depression, but I'm curious whether that condition might not disappear in the face of something so fundamentally life-changing as the end of civilization. If I didn't have time to think about anything beyond day-to-day survival, I don't think I'd mope so much.
 

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Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
MPH: The Turkey Baster method is a nice, low tech and traditional means of artificial insemination amongst "My People"
 

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Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
 
Yould be surprised how easily a large group of people can be swayed do a certain way of thinking given the right circumstances, ever read The Wave? I am starting from the assumptin that in such an enviroment capitalistic selfishness is soemthing that I highly doubt very few people will hold onto, the betterment of the coommunity should be an obvious goal, the few who think overwise can be pressured into realizing what is best for survival for as many people as possible and my system at least leaves the hope that even people who medically cant contribute much initially can still render services to society as a whole later when theyre particular set of skills become needed.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

quote:

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the betterment of the coommunity should be an obvious goal

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quote:

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Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:

quote:

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the betterment of the coommunity should be an obvious goal

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I think the goal for most people will be the betterment of their own family and loved ones, not the entire community.

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quote:

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I think rational people will realize that creating a stable community will be absolutely necessary for the survival of their families. If most people have the goal of bettering their own families and not the entire community, then we can pretty well kiss humanity good bye.

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quote:

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In fact, I'd imagine that if a disaster left me alive while killing the rest of my family and destabilizing society to the point where life was harsh, I'd be very tempted to kill myself, or at least allow myself to die.

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quote:

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I don't know, humanity survived many thousands of years with precisely that mindset once already, hasn't it? Granted, it would be much easier for total disaster given a very small population.

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quote:

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Originally posted by vonk:
I think we should forget about rebuilding civilization. We'll all treck to the mildest subtropical climate with plenty of nearby vegetation to provide easily harvestable foodstuffs and seafood that just washes up on shore or is easy to catch. Then we'll go with the hammock idea and just sit around in our hammocks, go swimming, eat boiled clams and crab and fresh mangos and berries. As long as we keep the population under control, there would never be any need to do anything other than pick food off of the trees and the earth and walk a bit aways before dropping a load.

Who's with me?

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quote:

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I think rational people will realize that creating a stable community will be absolutely necessary for the survival of their families. If most people have the goal of bettering their own families and not the entire community, then we can pretty well kiss humanity good bye.

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quote:

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Interesting thought, Stray. I'd assume that my depression would get worse during a severe crisis. I find that stress sets it off, and the situation we're describing is pretty much the mother of all stressful scenarios.

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quote:

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I sorta think disaster would stimulate our will to live. Sorta like when you're feeling all suicidal and suddenly you're in a life threatening situation and instead of letting that truck hit you you swerve out of the way, heart pounding, sweat on your forhead, happy to be alive.

I also think a lot of our malaise is due to our easy lives.

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quote:

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I vote for banishing Samprimary.

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It is good that you express your contempt for me so openly! Pufnstuf hungers for blood sacrifice.
 

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Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
 
He doesn't seem the sort that would back down because you voted.
 

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Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
 
Samprimary:

Shogosei-

If the community had armed guards (which they should) and we did not believe he could garner significant support, I think banishment would be best. If we did think he'd get a lot of support, I wouldn't step in Rakeesh's way.
 

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Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
 
There fixed some errors.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Shigosei:
MPH, why don't you just share your spelling ability with him?

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quote:

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If the community had armed guards (which they should) and we did not believe he could garner significant support, I think banishment would be best. If we did think he'd get a lot of support, I wouldn't step in Rakeesh's way.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Shigosei:
I was just trying to make a joke given all Blayne's posts on Communism.

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quote:

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vonk Posted: But I'd be willing to bet that there's someone willing to [kill someone]. Maybe I'll be on their side.

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quote:

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Samprimary Posted: This cowardly lot will never accomplish anything remotely resembling true civilization until they are yoked under the just hand of warrior empire.

God willing, through force and fire I plan to gather the strongest among us and get us at least to the level of feudal warlordism, chained by obsequience to blood pacts in religions I have named myself prophet of.

We will live off the spoils of the weak until we have conquered the most fertile lands for our own use. Neighboring hegemony will be pillaged, razed, and salted to keep dissident factions from becoming a threat to our existance in future years. Women shall be captured to serve as a breeder helot class alongside the Defectives. Bloodsport will placate our masses, as will faithful, totemic, costumed, fire-illuminated re-enactment of The Sid and Marty Kroft Show. Verily, H.R. Pufnstuf will be our dark god.

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quote:

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If the community had armed guards (which they should) and we did not believe he could garner significant support, I think banishment would be best. If we did think he'd get a lot of support, I wouldn't step in Rakeesh's way.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
ketchupqueen, What if the leaders of the Church directed you to share with other people? I have heard several statements by church leaders indicating that this would happen in case of a major catastrophe. That is exactly what has happened in recent floods, Hurricanes and the like so I don't see any reason to expect we won't be asked to share with everyone if a major global catastrophe happens.

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quote:

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Once things are really underway, and we've dealt with some of the more dangerous enemies, I would of course assassinate him, blame it on my rival or the most dangerous remaining enemy, and take control, thus handily avoiding the pesky high initial failure rate for small businesses and warlords.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Icarus:
Samprimary, can I have a position of power within your empire?

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quote:

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Cant you see that sharing and pooling resources is far better for improving the odds of survival for everyone

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quote:

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And if there was no church authority left?

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Is every active male member of the church of sound mind over the age of 12 dead? I don't think so. I know just counting people on Hatrack we have enough for a good, strong priesthood organization.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
I've got to disagree with you there, KQ. While we would certainly have priesthood authority, what priesthood keys would we have?
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
Maybe it would be given from on high. It has been before. In any case, I would think that there would be enough for quorums to act as groups and that direction would be given.

Besides, we don't really know that President Monson doesn't lurk here, do we?
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
Also, if as stipulated before we are all living in the same area, I'd bet we'd even have a surviving bishop. Maybe even part of our stake leadership.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
KQ -- see my earlier post about having an apostle lurk on HR.

There would be doctrinal difficulties with anything other than an apostle, as receiving all the keys of the priesthood from on high again would basically constitute a new dispensation, and we've been promised that this is the last dispensation.

Neither a bishop nor a stake president have all the keys of the kingdom. IIUC, Not even general authorities do -- only the apostles.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
Oh, I know. But I was just saying that a bishop or stake president would have the keys to look after their flock, right?

And while it's true that this is the last dispensation, we also are imagining a reality where only Hatrackers and their families survive.

(Earlier post? Missed it. Where?)
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

quote:

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Oh, I know. But I was just saying that a bishop or stake president would have the keys to look after their flock, right?

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quote:

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Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:

quote:

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Will the old religions of the world be represented? Changed?

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Unless there's an apostle from the LDS Church lurking here somewhere, my religion would probably not be able to continue unchanged.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
But if we were a pre-existing ward we'd have a bishop called before we were left all alone, right?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Shigosei:
Do the apostles make sure they're never all in the same place at once to prevent a disaster killing them all at once?

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Nope.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
Well, if the Lord wants to kill off everyone but Hatrackers, I'm sure He can manage to call an apostle who is a member of the forum (or get an apostle to register) before hand.
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Euripides:
I could design stuff. And maybe build it haphazardly.

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What, you haven't taken Thatched Hut Design 201 yet?

What do they teach architects these days?!
 

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Posted by Euripides (Member # 9315) on :
 


Cardboard house anyone? No need for sewage plumbing; there are colonies of worms and beetles to take care of that.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
$35,000? The land to put it on would cost more than that! I'm sold.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
actually the tropics are potentially even worse for long term survival, deasiease, insects, unpredictable tropcial storms etc.

This is why I advocate a Socialist Society, that way, those who are physically weak and cant do the hard labour are still entitled to a fair share of what the community produces because they contribute through other means, Beekeeping is for example a must, we need honey.

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You're assuming that members of a bartering society wouldn't help their neighbors. I certainly would. Most people can do *something* to generate something to barter, but if they can't or are too old or infirm, and they don't have family, they could be adopted into another family.

But taking someone into your family shouldn't be forced.

And on the topic of killing where necessary... there are those of us who would do it, and what are those who disagree going to do about it? They can't kill us to stop us... So, the ones who are willing to kill become the leaders. And I don't think that's so bad... as long as they're fair and only kill when absolutely necessary. I suggest those people quietly take out the crazy murderous megalomaniacs first.
 

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Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
 
I think I will take the role of the guy who warns everyone about what not to do, but is promptly ignored, and is later tragicly proven to be right when things go disasterously awry.
 

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Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
 
But, a barter society isnt efficient for directing the resources effectively, remember its not just a matter to survival, we are aiming for the ability to do reconstruction as well and only with 100% of the resources being utilized to their fullest extent can we begin reconstruction at an efficient steady pace. Some people in a straight off barter society WILL NOT help their neighbours long term, Adam Smith once said that the product is worth whatever the purchaser is willing to pay for it, barter society will always transform sooner or later into a capitalistic society because once you are able to delagate someone else to do the job for you and make a profit off his or her labours it becomes capitalism and once it is capitalism you have no need to help anyone, if people are starving to the capitalist it only means that they will PAY MORE for an essential good and as such charge them more for it.

Scientific Socialism is the only correct way to manage a new society, socioeconomically. It insures that the people who would not be able to fend for themselves will not die off but also prosper. Everyone contributes and everyone ha access to what is contributed.

The idea that it is wrong to steal or that it is theft, that the majority will not go for it, or that if you need to eventually resort to force to ensure it works, is laughable, there is something called a government, they take your taxes and return an essential services and AFAIK 99.9% of people accept this, why? Because it works.

And as for taking people into your family? what do you mean? where did I say this? No one would force you to take care of someone, if you had the skills say as a nurse to take care of the sick villagers then you would already probably have volunteered to take care of them, if your a couple with no child and theres an orphan you will probably take care of them, the idea is that if there are people who are infirm, or old or young or without family the community as a whole will do something to insure they prosper because it is not only the right thing to do, but it also contributes to our long term survival.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
Re: Tresopax

Aaah. The blind prophet who really sees.

Tragic!
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
What's REALLY tragic is the reason we don't listen to him:

Disastrous, even.


 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 

quote:

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Scientific Socialism is the only correct way to manage a new society, socioeconomically. It insures that the people who would not be able to fend for themselves will not die off but also prosper. Everyone contributes and everyone ha access to what is contributed.

---

quote:

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Scientific Socialism is the only correct way to manage a new society, socioeconomically. It insures that the people who would not be able to fend for themselves will not die off but also prosper. Everyone contributes and everyone ha access to what is contributed.

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quote:

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though I'd want to be involved with writing the charter of our new little community.

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quote:

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What's REALLY tragic is the reason we don't listen to him:

Disastrous, even.

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I warn thee, future hatrack civilization, that thy attention to grammar and spelling shall be thy downfall.....
 

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Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
 
I should add that the civilization that slowly grows out of every catastrophe will inevitably be significantly coloured by things that we cannot predict. If we have problems of succession of leadership we might institute a voting process, thus making the voting process, however we deal with it, would naturally become the basis of the new civilization that grows out of the early days.

And this is assuming that we get that far in the first generation. If its our children, or our children's children, or etc. then the process becomes even more unknown.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

quote:

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And on the topic of killing where necessary... there are those of us who would do it, and what are those who disagree going to do about it? They can't kill us to stop us... So, the ones who are willing to kill become the leaders.

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quote:

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When did 'presently unarmed' get turned into 'lifelong pacifist?'

---

I was just going off or Katarain's scenario where some people were willing to kill where necessary, and there were others who disagreed.

My point was that there are things non-violent majority can do besides roll over and take their lumps.

Personally, I don't think a completely non-violent society like that would arise from Hatrack, and even if it did, I don't think it could survive.
 

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Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
 
Primal Curve would probly strangle me the moment I gained power.
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
You say that like it's a plausability.


 

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Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
Helping people voluntarily is completely different than socialism. You don't have the RIGHT to the fruits of someone elses labour, but they share it with you because they like you or might need your help in the future.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Or because they're just good people.
 

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Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
mph: I wasn't going to make a value judgement
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Why not? Being willing to share with others is a good thing. It's nothing to be ashamed of.
 

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Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
MPH: What I typed out, then deleted was "Or because they get a good feeling." I think good people get a good feeling out of helping others. I didn't want to open that debate.
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 

quote:

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You don't have the RIGHT to the fruits of someone elses labour, but they share it with you because they like you or might need your help in the future.

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quote:

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I think that Jatraqueros are all mature enough to share.

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quote:

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??

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Personally, since they're your bees, I think you have to make that tough decision.
 

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Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
Ya know, with this thread I think we have the start of some interesting collaborative fiction if someone wants to actually serialize it.

"Group of philosophers, geeks and artists go on a weekend retreat in the hills. When they try to return home they find the world has ended. Can they stop arguing long enough to rebuild the world?"
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 


That's the thing. I don't think they're *my* bees. They're my responsibility to the community; they're my goodwill. The skills I use to take care of them are mine; the equipment I use might be mine too.

But the bees serve the community.

I think one way to handle this situation would be to require from Pixiest a larger-than-normal share of her crop for the use of my bees, which could then be distributed to MPH's theorhetical family to make up for the deficit. Also, some planning so that next year, we either have enough hives to go around, or there's enough diversification of crop so that two people's fields don't need pollination at the same time.

Or we could work on reviving wild honeybee hives, and make me redundant...

What I was TRYING to go for, though, is an encoded system of law-- how do we go about that? How do we ensure that our lawmakers keep the common touch?
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
In case of a Hatrack-only surviving post-apocalyptic frenzy, I'll happily pitch in with y'all and set bones, birth babies, cook off the land with my mad herbal skillz, and jerry-rig various mechanical items. At least, until I need antibiotics for an infection (with rationed antibiotics and my unstellar heart valve, I may well become one of the first unfortunate sacrifices). And since I am flagrantly allergic to penicillin, I cannot grow my own bugjuice from moldy Wonder Bread.

But I'm already planning for the everyone-surviving post-apocalyptic scenario, which necessitates me and Dave buying a sailboat (in the works for the years-distant future) and learning the near-extinct Haida language (working on it). Pop in the sailboat, take off up the Inside Passage to the Haida Gwaii islands (aka "the Galapagos of the North," note that they survived the last Ice Age immune from glacialization due to an astonishing microclimate -- nice for post-nuclear war possibilities) and try to barter my medical training for shelter. If I speak the language and can birth babies, I figure I have a shot.

We will need to equip the sailboat with LDS-style provisions and a water purifier that runs on sunlight, of course. Hmmm ...

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Edited to add: Better make sure the sailboat is at least 35 feet long and blue water ready, in case we run into the inevitable maritime piracy that will eventually develop. Safer initially than roads, though.

[I've been thinking about this too much.]

[ March 14, 2007, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]
 

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Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
Scott: In a few years, without pesticides, I think wild honey bees would thrive even if we didn't want them to. Pollination won't be a problem then.

Still, we don't get stung if we buy our honey from you. And given our bland diet, we're going to NEED your honey.

As to your example, in a socialist society, my fields get pollinated and my crops get divided amongst society. In a capitalist society, I bid higher, get my fields pollinated and hire MPH to help me tend them. I come out ahead, MPH gets fed, you come out ahead and next year you get more bees.
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
My LDS-style provisions consist of a couple jars of fruit, and 800 pounds of unground wheat.

I suggest you take up somone else's example.
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
I heard something about dried watermelon rinds.
 

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Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
 
When my thyroid pills ran out, I would be so much wasted space.

Sorry guys.
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
Bet we'd be tasty, though.
 

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Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
Cannibalism is the tastiest way to get rid of the body.
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
I'd just like to point out that without readily available antibiotics (penicillin isn't the only thing that grows on moldy bread, of course, and you might make things worse by assuming it is), you all are going to need that honey to pack wounds for disinfection.

Preserve your beekeepers.
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 

quote:

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In a few years, without pesticides, I think wild honey bees would thrive even if we didn't want them to. Pollination won't be a problem then.

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Pesticides aren't really the problem NOW. Diseases are. Don't get me wrong, some pesticides contribute (and have contributed) to the decline in wild bee populations; however, they're not the big killers.

Mother nature (via imported varroa mites) is the killer.


 

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Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
 
"My fields" is an abstract notion of belonging, they are the communities fields, your the one however who is incharge and responsible for that field, as for whose field so my for the sake of speedy conversation is appriobiat. gets first dibs on the bees Im not sure how farming works or if it works that way but whoever has the biggest field should get it first or rather needs it first. To each to their abilities to each to their needs.

A simpler way would be a hierarchy of priority, Scott, being the Bee keeper knows how best to use the bees so it would be first his decision I agree to decide whose fields not only needs to be pollenated first but also wuld best thrive when pollinated. If Scott cannot come to a decision a higher circle of authority will stud the matter and come to a reasonable conclusion and of course allocate to whoms field they believe needs to bees first.

Although situations will probly hardly be that simple, for example what if if Pixiests fields were a fruit farm and the other guys is a wheat field, how do we decide whats more important a balanced diet of fruits and/or vegetables or insuring our staple? Hopefully well have the needed experts to come to the correct conclusion.
 

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Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
 
Im certain we can find the ruins of an abandoned hospital somewhere and find more pills WCS.
 

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Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 
Can our government be a anarcho-syndicalist commune, where we take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer of the week. But decisions by that officer would have to be ratified at a special biweekly meeting. A simple majority would suffice in purely internal affairs, but a 2/3rds majority in more major decisions?

Or I suppose we could all go down to the lake and see who gets a scimitar lobbed at them.
 

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Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
Im certain we can find the ruins of an abandoned hospital somewhere and find more pills WCS.

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Not to mention once we found a militia's headquarters or a government armory we would have plenty of guns and ammunition for hunting. The contents of the armory would have to be under the strictest guard however.

I am not sure how to keep the arms secure without worrying about who is guarding the guards.
 

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Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
 
Like the one in Monty Python? Im thinking due to size, itld have to be a bit longer then biweekly, i have a council of appointed representatives will suffice. Ild say 1 rep per 500 people. Assuming a pop of 5000 that should be 10 reps, although 1 per 250 sounds better and is more flexible so 20 reps.

Anyone skills wood and stone working? Were gonna need a special building constructed.
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
For some of the health problems people here are suffering, finding the right pills isn't enough. We'd have to know how much to give them. And how often.

Pixiest's response bothered me a bit, and I couldn't figure out why. I think I know now-- the capitalist solution hangs on MPH being forced to work for her. (Not being forced, I know...but for lack of a better phrase...)

Otherwise, our solutions are about the same: Pixiest pays more in both scenarios, and MPH doesn't go hungry. In my solution, MPH has to rely on the charity of the organized government; in Pixiest's he has to rely on an individual.

Hm... it's an interesting conundrum. I don't like the idea of having to rely on the goodwill of either; but to rely on the goodwill of the individual means a certain amount of stratification may occur. I think that's something to be avoided.

On the other hand, I didn't post anything about MPH having to work for his charity from the government... and I'm concerned that he might lose some personal dignity unless he gets to work.


 

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Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 

quote:

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As to your example, in a socialist society, my fields get pollinated and my crops get divided amongst society. In a capitalist society, I bid higher, get my fields pollinated and hire MPH to help me tend them. I come out ahead, MPH gets fed, you come out ahead and next year you get more bees.

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quote:

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Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
Of course, that presupposes that A) you'll pay me enough for my family to live off of and B) there are other options for me to grow/hunt food, or C) between working for you and in other options, I'll be able to feed my family.

If those don't pan out, I still starve no matter how hard I work.

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quote:

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I am not sure how to keep the arms secure without worrying about who is guarding the guards.

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quote:

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As scary as the idea is, I think in such a situation the arms should be split between all of the residents. A stockpile of weapons sounds scarier. And the idea of having to guard it sounds inefficient.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Scott R:
My LDS-style provisions consist of a couple jars of fruit, and 800 pounds of unground wheat.

I suggest you take up somone else's example.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Amanecer:

quote:

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I am not sure how to keep the arms secure without worrying about who is guarding the guards.

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As scary as the idea is, I think in such a situation the arms should be split between all of the residents. A stockpile of weapons sounds scarier. And the idea of having to guard it sounds inefficient.

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But what if there are a limited number of say flame throwers, or say an antiaircraft cannon? Who gets those? Firearms and grenades I can see easily being divided as best as possible but generally speaking, the more powerful the weapon the fewer there are around.
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
Dagonee: market economies only rely on the goodwill of people with property in edge cases (and edge cases can be significantly reduced in a well-regulated economy), for most of their efficiency and benefit to participants they rely on the self-interest of people (not just those with property) -- on mutually-beneficial exchanges.

Furthermore, socialist systems rely not just on the goodwill of people doing the assigning, but their access to all the information and ability to process that information correctly. In any beyond the smallest economies, the amount of information to achieve efficient allocation quickly grows beyond the ability of people to collect and process all of it.
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
dkw--

What's your whole wheat doing in my honey?


 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by BlackBlade:
I have no intention of working to preserve somebody else's life if their contributions to the society are insignificant.

But honestly there is no place in a survivalist society for the indolent or idle. If somebody says "Please all I want is food/water."

Unless his philosophical work somehow provides crucial stability within the society then he/she is worthless.

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quote:

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Originally posted by dkw:

quote:

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Originally posted by BlackBlade:
I have no intention of working to preserve somebody else's life if their contributions to the society are insignificant.

But honestly there is no place in a survivalist society for the indolent or idle. If somebody says "Please all I want is food/water."

Unless his philosophical work somehow provides crucial stability within the society then he/she is worthless.

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So once someone is beyond productive working age we send them out to die in the woods?

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Nope, their good example of supporting the community while they were able is productive to the society's work ethic as a whole. Allowing them to starve sends a bad message to the community, better to let them live as good examples of a good citizen.

But if food/water/basic necessities were limited they would be the first to go unfortunately.
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
There's nothing preventing a market economy from having a social support system. In fact, many strong free-marketers have been for social support systems, provided they are minimally distorting, both for moral reasons and market reasons (a free market does not mean there are no rules; it means the rules are set up to support a system of mutually beneficial, non-coercive exchanges; people starving to death, for instance, is not conducive to mutually beneficial exchanges taking place). Randian principles are not the same as free market principles.

On the other hand, there's lots preventing a command economy from making enough food to support its population (we can observe this from history), much less making people significantly better off.
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
mph -- I love it. I haven't used it in awhile, though.

It's a dia-somethingorother. I got it online from a store that caters to the Amish (figure that one out.)

I'll try to find the exact model for you. I also have a book that rates different brands/models. (The Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book -- If you don't have it you should, Bev would love it.)

Edit: it's the last one on this page
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Scott R:
I have a better idea: we hold a riotous fourth of July party in which all the weapons that can be destroyed are destroyed.

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quote:

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Not to mention once we found a militia's headquarters or a government armory we would have plenty of guns and ammunition for hunting. The contents of the armory would have to be under the strictest guard however.

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The part that would worry me would be knowing there is an armory out there and wondering what type of person is going to find it first.

Which brings up the question of ownership. What would the policy be? Would everything begin as being community property, which would make MPH's piece of scrap something that he wouldn't have the right to offer to Scott? What about property claims or luxury items that remain from the old civilization? And what could be done about thieves (which would probably be harder to prove) when they can simply go to some other community and start over with a brand new identity?
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
Well, I would think that anything that was in your possession before would have to be yours. And anything that you worked for/found would be yours unless it was of such significant value to the community (weapons cache, medical supplies) that it should be held in common ownership and distribution should be communally decided on. There can be a degree of communal property/helping while still preserving individual ownership; see common lands for an example.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
*wraps arms protectively around DVD collection*

Who am I kidding. *claims the Library of Congress*
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by camus:
[QUOTE] And what could be done about thieves (which would probably be harder to prove) when they can simply go to some other community and start over with a brand new identity?

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quote:

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Originally posted by katharina:
*wraps arms protectively around DVD collection*

Who am I kidding. *claims the Library of Congress*

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Now, that, we're going to have to confiscate. It could provide valuable resources for the community's survival.
 

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Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by katharina:
*wraps arms protectively around DVD collection*

Who am I kidding. *claims the Library of Congress*

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Then the Widener Library is all mine.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
I disagree. With approximately 10,000 hatrackers surviving, I think it would split up into several smaller communities.
 

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Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
 

quote:

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But what if there are a limited number of say flame throwers, or say an antiaircraft cannon? Who gets those? Firearms and grenades I can see easily being divided as best as possible but generally speaking, the more powerful the weapon the fewer there are around.

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quote:

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My LDS-style provisions consist of a couple jars of fruit, and 800 pounds of unground wheat.

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quote:

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Unless of course we can still raid Walmarts. And if that's the case, we wouldn't really NEED to farm for a very long time. In order to properly hypothesize we need to decide how much stuff is still usable. Is this The Stand or Alas Babylon?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Amanecer:

quote:

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My LDS-style provisions consist of a couple jars of fruit, and 800 pounds of unground wheat.

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Hmmmm, I forgot about this angle. I suppose at first there would probably be only one community and that the leaders would be the Mormons with food storage. ?

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The average farmer has a heck of a lot more grain (and likely canned fruits & veggies) than what Scott is describing. The Mormons are not the only ones with food storage.
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
I am totally with Blayne Bradley. In fact my native instincts are so strongly for cooperation rather than competition that I am shocked when I discover people who disagree.
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by The Pixiest:
Scott: I would think it's pretty clear. Our fictional MPH could sit on his butt and still get fed in the socialist example. (unless they FORCED him to work against his will. *cracks whip*

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quote:

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[/qb] In the barter society example, He can choose to work for fictional-me, starve, or find some other way to grow/hunt food. [/QB]

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quote:

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The amount of food stored in Walmarts and other grocery stores is truly negligible in comparison to the needs of the community they serve. When I lived in Seattle, the shelves of the groceries went bare every time they forcast a major snow storm. Unless we are talking about a neutron bomb scenario that kills people but leaves everything else in tact, the Walmart and Cosco shelves will be empty within the first day.

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quote:

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You are making the big assumption that there will be enough basic resources (land, water, minerals, wild game etc.) that there will always be some available that no one has claimed. This is an assumption that has rarely been true anywhere in the world.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Chuck Norris:

During the workweek, I plow fields using only my beard. After dinner, I will unwind by roundhouse kicking trees into perfectly formed 4"x4"s, to be used for building. Expect the first generation of younglings to all be fathered by me, as everyone know Chuck Norris impregnates women by his mere proximity. There's no need to worry about mutation due to inbreeding in the succeeding generations, though, as Chuck Norris's DNA is perfect.

It will be utopia. And for anyone who disagrees with any of the above, well, you can guess what they've got coming, right?

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by fugu13:
KoM: some communal living experiments on that scale worked out well. Most failed, and often due to things like free-rider problems.

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quote:

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they either leave the community figuring they can do better on their own, often taking key community resources with them, or they start "skimming the cream of the milk" for themselves (has anyone read "Folk of the Fringe".) In the end thats what ends up tearing communities apart.

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quote:

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the real issue will be species sustainability. The few people remaining after a couple of winters may be able to live comfortably for a time, but will there be enough of a population base to ensure expanding population beyond a single generation, or will the pool shrink to zero? The population of 'hatrack' may not be sufficient enough to ensure the continuation of the species.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Scott R:

quote:

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they either leave the community figuring they can do better on their own, often taking key community resources with them, or they start "skimming the cream of the milk" for themselves (has anyone read "Folk of the Fringe".) In the end thats what ends up tearing communities apart.

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I'm trying to remember which story lines up with your hypothesis, and I'm drawing a blank.

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quote:

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I read somewhere that the human race can repopulate itself if more than 60 humans survive.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ketchupqueen:

quote:

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Originally posted by Scott R:

quote:

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they either leave the community figuring they can do better on their own, often taking key community resources with them, or they start "skimming the cream of the milk" for themselves (has anyone read "Folk of the Fringe".) In the end thats what ends up tearing communities apart.

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I'm trying to remember which story lines up with your hypothesis, and I'm drawing a blank.

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I forget the name, but the one with the teacher who reports the people who are selling stuff on the black market.

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quote:

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Porter, it appears from recent genetic research that humans have only 2 ancestors, 1 male and 1 female.

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quote:

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Originally posted by steven:
Porter, it appears from recent genetic research that humans have only 2 ancestors, 1 male and 1 female. The more complex the organism, the less genetic diversity exists within the species. Sponges are the least complex and most genetically diverse multicellular creature. Humans are the opposite. All other species are in between.

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quote:

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This certainly does not mean that she is the ancestral mother of all who came after her; during her time and even before her time there were many women and men who contributed to the nuclear genes we now carry. (To see how this can be, check out Tracing Ancestry.) It also does not mean that the mtDNA originated with this "Eve"; she and her contemporaries also had their own "most recent common ancestor though matrilineal descent," a woman who lived even further into the past who passed on her mtDNA to everyone living during "Eve's" time. (We get our mtDNA from that same, older ancestor. She's just not, to us, the most recent common ancestor.)

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quote:

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even in tiny communes like the family, freeloading is a problem.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Pixiest:
Actually, even in tiny communes like the family, freeloading is a problem. I love my hubby but he doesn't pull his weight around the house. We both work but I do the cooking and laundry and I'm lucky if I can get him to lug the trash to the dumpster.

I don't think this is an uncommon problem. In fact, I'd go as far to say that it's a cultural problem (though I think it's getting better.)

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