Were 't aught to me I bore the canopy, With my extern the outward honouring, Or laid great bases for eternity, Which prove more short than waste or ruining? Have I not seen dwellers on form and favour Lose all, and more, by paying too much rent, For compound sweet forgoing simple savour, Pitiful thrivers, in their gazing spent? No, let me be obsequious in thy heart, And take thou my oblation, poor but free, Which is not mix'd with seconds, knows no art, But mutual render, only me for thee. Hence, thou suborn'd informer! a true soul When most impeach'd stands least in thy control.
The sonnet a day site puts up a different Shakepeare sonnet every day. I just subscribed, and here is today's. I've never read this one before. I'm still trying to parse it.
Maybe I should start with defining the words precisely. Sometimes that helps.
Main Entry: sub·orn Pronunciation: s&-'born Function: transitive verb Etymology: Middle French suborner, from Latin subornare, from sub- secretly + ornare to furnish, equip -- more at ORNATE 1 : to induce secretly to do an unlawful thing 2 : to induce to commit perjury; also : to obtain (perjured testimony) from a witness
Main Entry: 1im·peach Pronunciation: im-'pEch Function: transitive verb Etymology: Middle English empechen, from Anglo-French empecher, enpechier to ensnare, impede, prosecute, from Late Latin impedicare to fetter, from Latin in- + pedica fetter, from ped-, pes foot -- more at FOOT 1 a : to bring an accusation against b : to charge with a crime or misdemeanor; specifically : to charge (a public official) before a competent tribunal with misconduct in office c : to remove from office especially for misconduct 2 : to cast doubt on; especially : to challenge the credibility or validity of <impeach the testimony of a witness>
Main Entry: ob·la·tion Pronunciation: &-'blA-sh&n, O- Function: noun Etymology: Middle English oblacioun, from Anglo-French oblation, from Late Latin oblation-, oblatio, from Latin offerre 1 : the act of making a religious offering; specifically capitalized : the act of offering the eucharistic elements to God 2 : something offered in worship or devotion : a holy gift offered usually at an altar or shrine
Main Entry: ob·se·qui·ous Pronunciation: &b-'sE-kwE-&s, äb- Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English, compliant, from Latin obsequiosus, from obsequium compliance, from obsequi to comply, from ob- toward + sequi to follow -- more at OB-, SUE : marked by or exhibiting a fawning attentiveness synonym see SUBSERVIENT
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Okay, I'm going to attempt a first paraphrase, to make sure I'm understanding his meaning.
If it meant anything to me whether or not I held up the sky honoring the external world with my outsides, or laid the foundations of the universe for eternity, which ends up lasting no longer than any rotting thing? Haven't I seen people who care about outward form and popularity lose everything they seek by trying too hard? Giving up plain enjoyment for fancy contrived sweetness, pathetic prosperers, used up from all their searching? No, I'd rather be humble and subdued in your heart, and accept my worship, simple but free, which isn't mixed with seconds(?) and isn't highflown, only mutual render(?), me for you, Therefore, you suborned informer, a simple honest person when most criticized, is the least under your control(?)
I'm still missing the main point, I think. Can anyone help?
More definitions:
Main Entry: 2second Function: noun 1 a -- see NUMBER table b : one that is next after the first in rank, position, authority, or precedence <the second in line> 2 : one that assists or supports another; especially : the assistant of a duelist or boxer 3 a : the musical interval embracing two diatonic degrees b : a tone at this interval; specifically : SUPERTONIC c : the harmonic combination of two tones a second apart 4 a plural : merchandise that is usually slightly flawed and does not meet the manufacturer's standard for firsts or irregulars b : an article of such merchandise 5 : the act or declaration by which a parliamentary motion is seconded 6 : a place next below the first in a competition, examination, or contest 7 : SECOND BASE 8 : the second forward gear or speed of a motor vehicle 9 plural : a second helping of food
Main Entry: 1ren·der Pronunciation: 'ren-d&r Function: verb Inflected Form(s): ren·dered; ren·der·ing /-d(&-)ri[ng]/ Etymology: Middle English rendren, from Anglo-French rendre to give back, surrender, from Vulgar Latin *rendere, alteration of Latin reddere, partly from re- + dare to give & partly from re- + -dere to put -- more at DATE, DO transitive verb 1 a : to melt down <render suet>; also : to extract by melting <render lard> b : to treat so as to convert into industrial fats and oils or fertilizer 2 a : to transmit to another : DELIVER b : GIVE UP, YIELD c : to furnish for consideration, approval, or information: as (1) : to hand down (a legal judgment) (2) : to agree on and report (a verdict) 3 a : to give in return or retribution b (1) : GIVE BACK, RESTORE (2) : REFLECT, ECHO c : to give in acknowledgment of dependence or obligation : PAY d : to do (a service) for another 4 a (1) : to cause to be or become : MAKE <enough rainfall...to render irrigation unnecessary -- P. E. James> <rendered him helpless> (2) : IMPART b (1) : to reproduce or represent by artistic or verbal means : DEPICT (2) : to give a performance of (3) : to produce a copy or version of <the documents are rendered in the original French> (4) : to execute the motions of <render a salute> c : TRANSLATE 5 : to direct the execution of : ADMINISTER <render justice> 6 : to apply a coat of plaster or cement directly to intransitive verb : to give recompense
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Does render in this case mean sense 3? 3 a : to give in return or retribution b (1) : GIVE BACK, RESTORE (2) : REFLECT, ECHO c : to give in acknowledgment of dependence or obligation : PAY d : to do (a service) for another
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
All these definitions are from mirriam webster online, btw. I thought I should say that.
Posted by Loren (Member # 9539) on :
I'm in the middle of studying for my Permission to Proceed Exam next week. The exam includes Shakespeare's sonnets and is keeping me much too busy to waste time doing things like explicating individual poems or posting on internet forums.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Alas, too bad you're gonna do it anyway, eh Dante? Posted by Loren (Member # 9539) on :
Pfft.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Awwww c'mon! You know you can't resist!
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Oh well, good luck on Obtaining Permission to Proceed.
Tomorrow: a new sonnet!
Posted by Eduardo St. Elmo (Member # 9566) on :
I might be out of line here, but I think the main point the Bard's making in this particular sonnet is the same as can be found in Nirvana's "Come As You Are". Basically, he says you can spend an inordinate amount of time creating this wonderful character about yourself, but there's a big chance you're missing out on a whole lot in the meantime.
read "not mix'd with seconds" as unchanged by time, and "knows no art" as having nothing artificial.
But of course I could be mistaken...
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
I read "not mix'd with seconds" as "pure" as in "a pure offering", not one mixed with "left-overs unfit for other uses", which is another definition of "seconds". I like Eduardo's read, though, too.
I think "mutual render" is referring to "obsequious in your heart" and "my oblation" mutually rendering (def 4a) only "me for thee". In other words: "May I be so sweetly attentive in your heart that this attentiveness and my humble offerings make it so that, for you, there is only me."
Or perhaps, more precisely: "Let me be sweetly attentive in your hear, and please accept my humble offering, and may this attentiveness and humble offering together turn your heart to me and no other."
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Karl Ed, I like your interpretation.
Today's is one of my favorites! Enjoy!
My mistress' eyes are nothing like the sun; Coral is far more red than her lips' red; If snow be white, why then her breasts are dun; If hairs be wires, black wires grow on her head. I have seen roses damask'd, red and white, But no such roses see I in her cheeks; And in some perfumes is there more delight Than in the breath that from my mistress reeks. I love to hear her speak, yet well I know That music hath a far more pleasing sound; I grant I never saw a goddess go; My mistress, when she walks, treads on the ground: And yet, by heaven, I think my love as rare As any she belied with false compare.
I studied this one in lit class, and I remember that reeks has a neutral meaning in Shakespeare's time. It wasn't meant as an insult. Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
Rather witty poem; amusing first line. Brings a fuzzy sensation in that mass of flesh and blood called the heart.
Posted by jehovoid (Member # 2014) on :
Maybe, in the first one, his woman is accusing him of something and he's trying to squirm out of it. This is always great inspiration for the imagination.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
I like this one. There is something to be said for clear-eyed appreciation for ones love. It's almost purer, for he doesn't have to import any images to explain his attraction.
In East of Eden, a recurrent theme is love for another as the other is vs. love for the image and dreams one has super-imposed on the other. I thought this a cunning distinction when I read the book, and in reading this poem, I appreciate that the writer loves in the better way.
Posted by dean (Member # 167) on :
I think by render, he actually means definition 2A. And I read the part about seconds as KarlEd did, using definition 4A.
Therefore a "mutual render" would be each giving all of his all.
And "isn't mixed with seconds" would be each giving all his best rather than some good stuff and some "seconds" which doesn't quite qualify as the good stuff.
I'm still not sure I understand the first quatrain. Why is it a question? It sounds both in the original and in your paraphrase as though it is a subordinated clause unattached to a complete idea.
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
Always liked 130. Did it in a Drama class. Read a Cliffs' Notes summary on it that felt the speaker was insulting his love, and felt that Cliffs completely missed it.
In some ways, I think the real message is "When every overly-romantic buffoon has come down to earth about their "goddesses", I'll still love this woman, because I've always loved her as she actually is."
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Sonnet #131
Thou art as tyrannous, so as thou art, As those whose beauties proudly make them cruel; For well thou know'st to my dear doting heart Thou art the fairest and most precious jewel. Yet, in good faith, some say that thee behold Thy face hath not the power to make love groan: To say they err I dare not be so bold, Although I swear it to myself alone. And, to be sure that is not false I swear, A thousand groans, but thinking on thy face, One on another's neck, do witness bear Thy black is fairest in my judgment's place. In nothing art thou black save in thy deeds, And thence this slander, as I think, proceeds.
Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
The essential misunderstanding of 130 comes from modern meanings of "wires" and "reeks." She's not ugly and smelly; she's just human, like every other woman anyone ever wrote a poem about. No one has perfumed breath or musical voice.
I've never read 131 before. "To say they err I dare not be so bold,/ although I swear it to myself alone" -- basically the opposite of the bold statements in 130. Neat.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
quote:Originally posted by dean: I think by render, he actually means definition 2A. And I read the part about seconds as KarlEd did, using definition 4A.
Therefore a "mutual render" would be each giving all of his all.
And "isn't mixed with seconds" would be each giving all his best rather than some good stuff and some "seconds" which doesn't quite qualify as the good stuff.
I'm still not sure I understand the first quatrain. Why is it a question? It sounds both in the original and in your paraphrase as though it is a subordinated clause unattached to a complete idea.
deany, I agree with your readings. I don't know why the first quatrain is phrased as a question when it's just a clause. I took it for poetic license.
Maybe it's sort of like "as if!"?
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
We've been all curious about the meaning of the words so far, but please let me point out the music of the words in all these! Shakespeare has the best music in his poetry of anyone who has ever written in English!
Listen to the music in this line:
And yet, by heaven, I think my love as rare
It just dances. =) You can hear how thrilled he is about her.
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