His Holiness Pope Benedict, Pope and Metropoliton of Rome, Patriarch and Primus inter Pares of the West
The Most Rev. and Rt. Hon. Dr. Rowan Williams, Archbishop and Metropoliton of Cantebury, Primate of All England and Head of the Anglican Communion
His Divine Beatitude, Theodoros II Pope and Patriarch of of Alexandria
His Holinesss Antonios Naguib, the Coptic Catholic Patriarch and Pope of Alexandria
His Beatitude Patriarch Ignatius IV (Hazim) of Antioch and all the East
His Beatitude Patriarch Theophilus III of Jerusalem
His Holiness and Beatitude, Archbishop of Mtskheta-Tbilisi and Catholicos-Patriarch of All Georgia
His Holiness the Archbishop of Pe?, Metropolitan of Belgrade and Karlovci, Serbian Patriarch Pavle
His Beatitude the Archbishop of Athens and All Greece Christodoulos
His Beatitude Archbishop Dr Anastasios of Tirana and All Albania
His Beatitude Monsignor Michel Sabbah, Latin Patriarch and Archbishop of Jerusalem
His Holiness the seventy-sixth Patriarch of Antioch and the Whole Levant, Cardinal Mar Nasrallah Boutros Sfeir
His Holiness Karekin II, Catholicos of Armenia and of All Armenians
His Holiness Baselios Mar Thoma Didymos I, Catholicos of the East & Malankara Metropolitan
Rev. Mark S. Hanson, Presiding Bishop of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and President of the Lutheran World Federation
Rabbi Brant Rosen, President of the Reconstructionist Rabbinical Association Board of Directors
Imans from Mecca and Jerusalem
Representitives of the Druze and Bahai faiths
All praying at the Cave of the Patriarchs for peace Posted by Luet13 (Member # 9274) on :
Is there a reason you didn't include the Dalai Lama, or any Hindu spiritual leaders?
I'm just saying that if you're going to get all those folks together, you might as well include some of the leaders of Buddhism and Hinduism. After all, those faiths are followed by billions of people. And they could certainly help in any peacful prayer endevors.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I think he's naming the leaders of the groups more commonly associated with violence, and specifically, violence influenced by religion.
Posted by Luet13 (Member # 9274) on :
Ah. Thanks for the clarification.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
There's so many things wrong with that I don't know where to start.
Singling them out to pray for peace presupposes that they are endorsing the violence now and/or their prayers would be more effective than his own. And so my response is: what on earth? are you kidding?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I wonder what would happen if all of them excommunicated everyone who claims to be of the religion they lead.
Either way, I don't think he is necessarily blaming the church/mosque/temple fathers (etc.) for the violence. I think he's idealistically hoping that if the leaders of religions that are often at odds with each other were to get together, team up, and show a united front for peaceful coexistance, that the rest of the world and their followers would fall in line.
I think they'd get further with excommunications, it removes the umbrella they work with, and might get the real faithful to stand up to them. Everything else is just ignorable words.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:if the leaders of religions that are often at odds with each other were to get together, team up, and show a united front for peaceful coexistence, that the rest of the world and their followers would fall in line.
This hasn't exactly happened for anything else, unfortunately.
My impression is that there is a perception that leaders have much greater control over the actions of the members of their flocks than they actually do.
Most churches don't have real active excommunication policies, the idea being, I think, that keeping someone within the fold leaves a chance to reach them while exile is washing one's hands of them.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:This hasn't exactly happened for anything else, unfortunately.
Such as?
quote:My impression is that there is a perception that leaders have much greater control over the actions of the members of their flocks than they actually do.
Agreed, mostly. Some religious leaders really DO have that kind of control and power, especially in the Muslim world. I can't say one way or the other about Jewish religious leaders, I really have no idea, and it's all over the board in Christianity. But I agree that on average, on the whole, the perception of influence is far from the reality of influence.
quote:Most churches don't have real active excommunication policies, the idea being, I think, that keeping someone within the fold leaves a chance to reach them while exile is washing one's hands of them.
As you said, that isn't the reality though. I understand the theory, but I think it's about as idealistically flawed as the idea that praying for peace is going to wave a magic wand and fix it. If they aren't listening, and don't respect the religious leaders, those leaders need to recognize that, rally what true followers they have, and kick the other guys out. They need to stop associating with people who don't share their beliefs.
I think, and this is without foundation, just a wondering, that many are afraid that kicking out that many people is admitting defeat, and possibly could be construed as a statement that religious leaders aren't what they used to be.
They NEED to wash their hands of them, rather than guarding them in the hems of their robes, which more often than not seemed to be stained by the blood their false followers spilled.
A thousand years ago, those that claimed to be part of a religious group that didn't really follow the rules, that in fact patently broke them, defied church leaders, and went on killing sprees were kicked out, and usually much more violently than a simple slap on the wrist and a pink slip.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Prometheus -- if you want to get a Christmas present from each of those men, what are you getting them?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I'm thinking this, this, or this. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: I think he's naming the leaders of the groups more commonly associated with violence, and specifically, violence influenced by religion.
So does that mean that I should be glad or annoyed that while some dozen Christian sects are represented, the only Jewish "representative" is from the smallest and least-accepted (because it isn't really a religious group at all, really) so-called Jewish group one could think of?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
You should just be grateful you were remembered at all.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
My point is that I wasn't. Of all the things that take the label "Judaism" but have nothing to do with a religion actually resembling Judaism, Reconstructionism has to be highest on the list.
They don't even believe in the existence of God!
Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
oh my...I'm gonna stay out of this. I don't think this is a good way to start after introducing one's self.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
If they don't believe in the existence of God, then hoping that they'll pray for peace is probably futile.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: I think he's naming the leaders of the groups more commonly associated with violence, and specifically, violence influenced by religion.
So does that mean that I should be glad or annoyed that while some dozen Christian sects are represented, the only Jewish "representative" is from the smallest and least-accepted (because it isn't really a religious group at all, really) so-called Jewish group one could think of?
That's a question for the new guy, but if you want me to take a stab at it...
I'd guess that referencing Jews at all refers to Palestine/Israel, and the most that MOST Americans know about it is whatever they see on the evening news, if they even bother to watch that. I'd say he just tossed it on there because the only other person to blame would be someone in the Israeli government, who wouldn't be a religious leader. That doesn't mean there aren't Jewish religious leaders out there to try and pin down, I just doubt he knows who any of them are, so he tossed the one he did know (or more likely bothered to google), and that's who became the Jewish representative.
Just a guess.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: If they don't believe in the existence of God, then hoping that they'll pray for peace is probably futile.
Oddly enough, they have a prayerbook, I think.
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: I just doubt he knows who any of them are, so he tossed the one he did know (or more likely bothered to google), and that's who became the Jewish representative.
Oh, probably. Except Google seems relatively unlikely, unless he used a rather odd set of keywords.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: [qb] If they don't believe in the existence of God, then hoping that they'll pray for peace is probably futile.
Oddly enough, they have a prayerbook, I think.
In any case, expecting a Christmas present from a Jew seems odd.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
There is that.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: If they don't believe in the existence of God, then hoping that they'll pray for peace is probably futile.
The Recon definition of God, as set down by their founder, Mordechai Kaplan. Note that this is blasphemy (a rabbi I once knew told me I should preface it with that warning in the future).
"God is a functional, rather than substantive noun, thus denoting that power in the cosmos, including man, that makes for the salvation of men and nations."
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:I think he's naming the leaders of the groups more commonly associated with violence, and specifically, violence influenced by religion.
I don't think that's it at all, and I hope he comes back and clarifies it.
First, Hinduism certainly has its share of violence. If this were the criterion, it was poorly applied.
Second, all the people he mentioned are connected to religions that honor Abraham. It is considered a holy place by Muslims, Jews, and Christians. I don't know if Druze and B'hai consider it holy, but I could see why someone would think so, as both have Islamic roots.
In this light the choice makes sense if one takes a superficial knowledge of Judaism into account.
quote:Most churches don't have real active excommunication policies, the idea being, I think, that keeping someone within the fold leaves a chance to reach them while exile is washing one's hands of them.
Most Catholic excommunications are levied with the express hope that the person will come back, and the mechanism for doing so is an inherent part of the excommunication. It's true that excommunication is pretty rare, but it's not incompatible with leaving a chance to reach them and it's not washing one's hands of them.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:Most Catholic excommunications are levied with the express hope that the person will come back, and the mechanism for doing so is an inherent part of the excommunication. It's true that excommunication is pretty rare, but it's not incompatible with leaving a chance to reach them and it's not washing one's hands of them.
Oh, I believe that. The LDS church does excommunication as well, with the same idea in mind. I was guessing as to why other churches don't.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:This hasn't exactly happened for anything else, unfortunately.
Just because something hasn't happened before isn't any reason not to wish for it to happen in the future. It just means the wish is not likely to come true.
That said, I haven't a clue what the OP is trying to say here, or why.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:"God is a functional, rather than substantive noun, thus denoting that power in the cosmos, including man, that makes for the salvation of men and nations."
Many times I have heard similar descriptions of God from the mouths of religious characters created by atheist writers.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang:
quote:This hasn't exactly happened for anything else, unfortunately.
Just because something hasn't happened before isn't any reason not to wish for it to happen in the future. It just means the wish is not likely to come true.
Wasn't it Einstein who said that the definition of insanity was doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I don't mind other people expecting unlikely things, such as perfect obedience of members of a religion. I do mind implying that various religious leaders are failing in their responsibility for not producing that unlikely thing.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:"God is a functional, rather than substantive noun, thus denoting that power in the cosmos, including man, that makes for the salvation of men and nations."
Many times I have heard similar descriptions of God from the mouths of religious characters created by atheist writers.
Yeah, but Kaplan really did write that. Which is why it's hard for a lot of Jews to take the Recon movement seriously.
Some people have joked that the Recon creed is "There is no God, and Mordechai Kaplan is his prophet."
Posted by PrometheusBound (Member # 10020) on :
quote: Is there a reason you didn't include the Dalai Lama, or any Hindu spiritual leaders?
I included only leaders from Abrahamic religions as I couldn't think of any site sacred to both Abrahamic and Dharmic religions. The Tomb of the Patriarchs is a holy place for all religions which trace their roots to Abraham, but had little or no significance for other religions.
quote: I don't think he is necessarily blaming the church/mosque/temple fathers (etc.) for the violence. I think he's idealistically hoping that if the leaders of religions that are often at odds with each other were to get together, team up, and show a united front for peaceful coexistance, that the rest of the world and their followers would fall in line.
Right. The thing is, these are all very good men, men whom I respect enormously and men whom the world holds great esteem for becouse they are in fact good men. I have greater faith in them than in the more disreputable politicians.
quote: the only Jewish "representative" is from the smallest and least-accepted (because it isn't really a religious group at all, really) so-called Jewish group one could think of?
Sorry, I meant to include Conservative and Reform Rabbis as well, and Rabbi Sir Jonathan Henry Sacks, Chief Rabbi of the U.K.
However, while Reconstructionist Judaism is by far the smallest branch, I have always felt it was well-accepted. Not by the Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox maybe, but by both the Reform and Conservative movements.
I am far from an expert in Jewish studies, but as far as I know, Reconstructionist Jews do believe in God. I know that they reject the idea that the Jews are a choosen people of God, but I didn't think they rejected the existence of God.
In adition to Reformed and Conservative Rabbis, I meant to add representitives from the Methodist and Prespyterian Churches.
I struggled with the inclusion or non-inclusion of various leaders. In the end, I decided not to include any Patriarchs thought to have been Soviet stooges.
Posted by PrometheusBound (Member # 10020) on :
"Of all the things that take the label "Judaism" but have nothing to do with a religion actually resembling Judaism, Reconstructionism has to be highest on the list."
Don't Reconstructionist Jews place a higher emphasis on traditional Jewish practices than Reform? Yeah, they are fairly Theologicaly liberal, but so are many Christians and even a few Muslims.
Like I said, I am not an expert nor even Jewish, but that was the impression I got.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:Wasn't it Einstein who said that the definition of insanity was doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results?
Yep. Of course, he was talking about experimental procedure. I'm not sure he meant for it to apply to hope.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Prometheus -- if you want to get a Christmas present from each of those men, what are you getting them?
I think he should get them Chia Pets. Everybody loves Chia Pets!
And I think that the idea of getting leaders of faith communities - or any communities - to pray for/work for/express a desire for peace is a hopeful and brave wish whatever the details.
Posted by PrometheusBound (Member # 10020) on :
Looking it up, Reconstructionist Jews do have a clear belief in God.
quote: Mitzvot are our particularly Jewish ways of responding to the universal God. We perceive God as demanding sacredness in general, and the Jewish mitzvot are our people's way of bringing that universal sacredness to the minutiae of daily life in our own specifically Jewish context.
From the Reconstructionist Rabinical College.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by PrometheusBound: I am far from an expert in Jewish studies, but as far as I know, Reconstructionist Jews do believe in God. I know that they reject the idea that the Jews are a choosen people of God, but I didn't think they rejected the existence of God.
They use the word, but they've redefined it to mean something foreign to any religious concept of God in any religion ever. It's like me saying that God means a hollow truncated conical object made of styrofoam, and then claiming that I really do believe in God because I drink out of him every day.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by PrometheusBound: Looking it up, Reconstructionist Jews do have a clear belief in God.
quote: Mitzvot are our particularly Jewish ways of responding to the universal God. We perceive God as demanding sacredness in general, and the Jewish mitzvot are our people's way of bringing that universal sacredness to the minutiae of daily life in our own specifically Jewish context.
From the Reconstructionist Rabinical College.
It means something a little different when you take their definition of the word into account.
Like in The Princess Bride. "You keep saying that. I don't think that word means what you think it means."
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Prometheus -- if you want to get a Christmas present from each of those men, what are you getting them?
I think he should get them Chia Pets. Everybody loves Chia Pets!
And I think that the idea of getting leaders of faith communities - or any communities - to pray for/work for/express a desire for peace is a hopeful and brave wish whatever the details.
Does anyone remember Fuzzy Wuzzy Soap? It was like soap chia pets.
I may have to get some now. Link Posted by PrometheusBound (Member # 10020) on :
quote: They use the word, but they've redefined it to mean something foreign to any religious concept of God in any religion ever.
Lots of people believe in that definition of God, many liberal Christians and Hindu intellectuals for instance. It is even pretty close to the orthodox Quaker view. So, while it may be different from other Jewish schools of thought, it is not "foreign to any religious concept of God in any religion ever."
I will not deny that it is substantialy different from most orthodox religious views.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally Posted by Dagonee: I don't think that's it at all, and I hope he comes back and clarifies it.
First, Hinduism certainly has its share of violence. If this were the criterion, it was poorly applied.
I think he's focusing on what we commonly see in the news, which is Big Three violence. Yeah I know there are more Hindus than there are Jews (well, probably anyway), but for the sake of the argument, consider this the Abrahamic Big Three, as they are the ones constantly in the news for bombings, assasinations, etc.
So yes, I think he's naming leaders of the groups attached to religious violence, specifically, in conflicts we see on tv all the time.
I'd like to see him be more specific too. Maybe he's focusing on individual problems rather than going for peace on earth in its entirety.
Posted by PrometheusBound (Member # 10020) on :
I already said that I choose only leaders of Abrahamic faiths becouse the Tomb of the Patriarchs has religious significance to them alone. I did not draw only from the "Big Three" but included Druze and Bahai.
Leaders of Dharmic religions should also be active in promoting peace. There is no one place anywhere that Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs and Jains all consider holy. Perhaps they might do as well to be seen praying together in the streets of Mumbai and New Delhi.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: So yes, I think he's naming leaders of the groups attached to religious violence, specifically, in conflicts we see on tv all the time.
Except that the Recon movement doesn't even exist in Israel. It's a purely American phenomenon.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
PrometheusBound: Indeed. Perhaps we should find all leaders of all religions and have them pray/wise/advise for peace in some neutral location. The ISS, the United Nations, or the center of Antarctica.
Posted by PrometheusBound (Member # 10020) on :
"The ISS, the United Nations, or the center of Antarctica."
Hmm....
I think the UN building would have to be bigger. The other two are just fine.... Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: So yes, I think he's naming leaders of the groups attached to religious violence, specifically, in conflicts we see on tv all the time.
Except that the Recon movement doesn't even exist in Israel. It's a purely American phenomenon.
Lisa, I don't think that's true any longer.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Yeah I know there are more Hindus than there are Jews (well, probably anyway), but for the sake of the argument, consider this the Abrahamic Big Three, as they are the ones constantly in the news for bombings, assasinations, etc.
So yes, I think he's naming leaders of the groups attached to religious violence, specifically, in conflicts we see on tv all the time.
They are also Abrahamic, and he picked the spot where Abraham is buried.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Hinduism is Abrahamic? Since when?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
The Big Three are.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Which is why I said "Abrahamic Big Three."
Was I not clear?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
It appears to me that when Dag said "They ar also Abrahamic", he was referring to the Big Three, not to Hinduism.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Okay...
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
You would think a lawyer would know how to express himself clearly. Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Hinduism is Abrahamic? Since when?
Brahma is obviously derived from Abraham.
(Yes, I'm kidding)
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Except that the Recon movement doesn't even exist in Israel. It's a purely American phenomenon.
Lisa, I don't think that's true any longer.
Ugh. Another American invasion. <sigh> Well, it's tiny and marginal there, in any case.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Good luck on getting your Christmas present next year. Just remember, if a lot of people land up wanting the same thing, you may have to camp out on the sidewalk outside the Cave of the Patriarchs overnight so that you can be first in line when it goes on sale the day after Thanksgiving.
Be sure to link to this thread for the annual Hatrack Gift Exchange, so that we'll know what to get you, too. Don't forget to include your favorite colors, and any allergies!
Posted by PrometheusBound (Member # 10020) on :
Oh, what an ass I am.
How could I forget His Highness Prince Karim al-?ussayni Aga Khan IV, one of the greatest and wisest religious leaders of our time?
Oh, well I don't think he will be offended as I doubt he spends his time reading Hatrack.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
At first, I held my tongue, mainly because I prefer to avoid contentiousness. However, I've heard from some here that they get all us Orthodox Jews mixed up, and I don't want my silence to imply agreement with what has been said here about Reconstructionist Jews. So, here I go, with unaccustomed contentiousness.
I think that it is a mistake to criticise and marginalize Jews who worship in un-Orthodox movements. By setting ourselves as arbiters of who is properly Jewish and who is not, we risk alienating our fellow Jews and making them feel as if they are less than full Jews.
This is utter nonsense. According to Jewish Law, you are either Jewish or not. How you worship has no bearing on your Jewishness.
There are 613 commandments pertaining to the Jewish people. There is no Jew here who follows all of them. And there is no Jew here who follows none of them. That pretty much puts us all somewhere in the middle.
I personally don't believe in the different "denominations" of Judaism, although I use the shorthand "Orthodox" to describe my practice of the religion. I prefer the term "observant Jew", meaning that I try to follow the commandments that I can.
Jews who don't follow the laws of Kashrut (kosher food)? Still Jews. Jews who don't follow the restrictions of the Sabbath? Still Jews. Jews who don't pray? Still Jews. And Jews who pray differently than I do? Certainly, still Jews.
Any Hatrack (or non-rack) Jew out there who thinks that I judge him negatively because he doesn't put his "Jew" on as in-your-face as I do, has got it all wrong.
And I just wanted to make that clear.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Which is why I said "Abrahamic Big Three."
Was I not clear?
"They are also Abrahamic" was to contrast your continued insistence in saying the selection was based on violence that we see on TV all the time.
You named the distinguishing feature that was actually related to the site of the prayer, then went on to pick some imagined connection between the three of them that was unrelated to the site. And you still haven't given a reason for doing so, even after the Abrahamic connection was pointed out to you.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I have no idea what you're saying. Might be because I worked 12 hours today and I'm no longer firing on all cylinders, but I don't understand what your point is.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
That you ignored the obvious connection between the site of the prayer and those invited and leaped to a totally different conclusion with absolutely nothing to base it on.
Posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick (Member # 9302) on :
Tante, if that was you being contentious, then I certainly hope you do it more often, because I (a non-Jew) though that was plain awesome.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Tante, I really appreciate that post. I was wondering how what seems to be the different kinds of Jews viewed each other. It seems like there are a variety of views, which makes sense with what I know of human beings in general.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
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