My research continues. I stumbled on to some Anti-adoption LJs. I don't get it. On one hand, I can sympathize with the pain of these biological mothers who feel like they've been pushed into giving up their child, but on the other hand, I cannot understand being completely anti-adoption. I read a list of myths about adoption they had and totally disagreed with about all of them. Their arguments were too broad, not all adoptions and situations behind them are the same. Two families adopting from the same country will have different experiences. They can't just broadly say that adoption is a bad thing and that it damages mothers and children without looking at the whole picture. Am I wrong for feeling a bit frustrated?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Personally, I wish that there were more adoptions happening.
I wonder how much of a hypocrite that makes me.
Posted by stihl1 (Member # 1562) on :
I think if you gave up a child for adoption and had a horrible experience with it, you would be anti-adoption. I know I've read a lot of heartbreaking stories about women who had to give up children because they were young and single, even though they didn't want to. I imagine that would be a horrible experience to give up a child that you wanted to keep, and that experience would make you anti-adoption. I don't think those people are wrong, it's just their point of view. You can't out-argue them or change their minds, their experience is too profound and miserable to do so. That doesn't make the opposing view wrong either. I doubt adoption is going anywhere, too many people agree with the principle when done correctly.
I don't know that you're wrong for feeling frustrated, but you need to understand their point of view as well. Not everyone has entered into that situation with clear eyes or with total agreement.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
Online, you can find people on both sides of any issue.
Any issue.
--j_k
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
All too true.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
quote:Adopted children and adults are over-represented in psychological treatment facilities. Adoptees make up 2-3% of the American population and approximately 15% of the patient load under psychiatric care. 20-30% of the children and adolescents in treatment are adoptees.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
quote:I think if you gave up a child for adoption and had a horrible experience with it, you would be anti-adoption.
I think the two things have a correlation, of course, but I don't buy that it is necessarily a case of causation or even that the end of that chain logically follows from the beginning.
If someone has a horrible experience with giving up a child for adoption, that does not mean that they wouldn't have had an equally horrible or even worse experience trying to raise the child. This, to me, seems like yet another expression of a phenomenon rampant in America, which is the idea that if you are unhappy, it must be because of someone else or some external force.
It is very likely that some of these people have legitimate complaints about the way their adoption experience progressed, but that also doesn't mean that adoption itself is a bad thing, only that it was misapplied or poorly executed in their specific case, or in some specific way.
On the other hand, if for example, a young teen gives up her child for adoption and it severely traumatizes her, and the child she gave up grows up with less than ideal parents and is therefore "traumatized", it does not follow that this trauma was because of the adoption. They could very likely be completely separate cases of trauma. The mother's trauma could ultimately be traced to the circumstances that led her to get pregnant in the first place. The child's could be traced to simple poor parenting, or (heaven forbid the suggestion) to simple irresponsibility and willfullness on the part of the child. It also does not follow that anything would have turned out any better if the adoption had not taken place.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
It's possible to be anti-the-current-system-of-adoption and not be anti-adoption. I suspect many people who have suffered at the hands of the current adoption system have a hard time presenting their points in a manner that makes that distinction clear.
However, anyone suggesting reforms to our adoption system (as opposed to abolition of adoption) is almost certainly in the former camp. I suspect those who are simply stating "don't give up your child for adoption ever - it's wrong" are simply acting from a place of deep personal pain.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by stihl1: I think if you gave up a child for adoption and had a horrible experience with it, you would be anti-adoption. I know I've read a lot of heartbreaking stories about women who had to give up children because they were young and single, even though they didn't want to. I imagine that would be a horrible experience to give up a child that you wanted to keep, and that experience would make you anti-adoption. I don't think those people are wrong, it's just their point of view. You can't out-argue them or change their minds, their experience is too profound and miserable to do so. That doesn't make the opposing view wrong either. I doubt adoption is going anywhere, too many people agree with the principle when done correctly.
I don't know that you're wrong for feeling frustrated, but you need to understand their point of view as well. Not everyone has entered into that situation with clear eyes or with total agreement.
That's what I'm trying to do, but I feel like some of them need to focus their rage on the system and the way it's set up, but people don't always get angry at the right people...
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
quote:Personally, I wish that there were more adoptions happening.
Totally, 100%, completely agree!!!!!!
(waiting not to patiently for "the call" from Russia so we can find my new daughter)
Adoptions are traumatic for both parents and child. (Less so for the biological father because they often are idiots who don't care who they knock up etc.) However, most of the adoptees who are in therapy are not trying to come to terms with being adopted. They are trying to come to terms with being abandoned in the first place. There are many attachment issues that must be dealt with in even the best of homes.
However, the rate of good psyche's from modern adopted children is higher than those in adoption homes, foster homes, or who remained in abusive homes. If the mother is caught in a web of addiction it greatly limits her ability to care for and even love her child.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
I would think anyone who is anti-abortion would be pro-adoption. Not that others can't be pro-adoption too, of course, but adoption has a special status as a possible alternative to abortion, no?
So...I'm a little perplexed why mph would think it hypocritical for him to be in favor of adoption. I must've missed some posts of yours in another thread.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Maybe because he has bio-kids or something? I wish I could adopt RIGHT NOW! I envy all of these people who are going to get their child and bring them home, but first I got to have home worth bringing a child to... One that isn't so... messy... so chaotic. With hay on the floor and this darn rabbit chewed up my good vacuum's cord. I think things have improved over the years in terms of adoption. There used to be a time when a lot of the mothers were in these homes and most of them didn't even get to see their child. Bath then it seemed like a lot of people wouldn't tell the child that they were adopted, even if it was obvious, like in the case of a Korean child with a white family. But, I think things are a lot different now. Now when people adopt from Asia they try to get their child Asian role models and for older children they seem to be more aware of the issues. I think it can work out as long as the child gets all the help they need. But, dang do I wish I was 30 and married right now... Dan-Raven, will you post about that? I really like reading adoption stories for some reason.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: I would think anyone who is anti-abortion would be pro-adoption. Not that others can't be pro-adoption too, of course, but adoption has a special status as a possible alternative to abortion, no?
So...I'm a little perplexed why mph would think it hypocritical for him to be in favor of adoption. I must've missed some posts of yours in another thread.
I agree that it is natural for somebody who is anti-abortion to be pro-adoption.
What makes me wonder about my hypocracy is that while I want more adoptions to happen across the board (both giving more up for adoption and taking more in for adoption), I personally have not adopted a single child, instead opting for the biological approach to fatherhood.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
m_p_h, I wonder if it could be like, hmmm, the profession of music? On could think it was marvelous to have professional musicians in the world, but still find it not quite suited to what one does with one's own life. Same with any other sort of art, or engineering, or medicine, or what have you.
One could be pro-adoption-in-all-the-many-right-circumstances, and still not judge one's own circumstance to be of the properly fitting sort. So you do something else. Not hypocritical, in my book.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
That's not a bad analogy, CT. I think I like it.
I don't think I'm hypocritical about adoption. We've considered adopting before, but we never felt like it was the right thing for us to do at the time.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I'd like to do both in the future, to have a child of my own and adopt some, but there's so many children that need homes from so many places, including right here in the US so I'm agonizing every night about it. I'd love to adopt a waiting child from here, but it will be years before I am responsible enough. I imagine a child that has been in the system for that long would have quite a few problems they'd need therapy to deal with and that would cost money... I just know I'll have an unusual family. I seemed to be obsessed with the thought of creating a family these days. Seems like the biological appoard is so much easier... no goverment prying... but childbirth SCARES ME!
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
The major difference between foreign and domestic adoption is the role of the biological parents. Here in the US biological parents have rights to the children they give up to adoption. Further, there is a movement to make them part of the child's life. It is no longer uncommon for an adopting couple to help a pregnant woman with all the prenatal care, be there in the delivery room, and keep in touch with the mother for the rest of their lives. The mother becomes kind of a distant Aunt. On the other hand it is also possible, and the legal right of the biological mother, to change her mind and keep her child after the child is born. No longer are there allowed any pressures for the distraught mother to give away her child as promised.
With foreign adoptions the biological parents are either non-existent, or products of pure fantasy. One woman adopted from Guatemala, as told that her biological parents were a symphony cellist and a civil engineer who while unmarried, decided not to end their careers by keeping this child. As she grew up, her love of music was put down to her biological mothers genes, her good math grades were put down to her biological father. She went in search of her biological family when she turned 30. She discovered her biological parents were impoverished scratch farmers who couldn't afford another girl at home.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Syn, childbirth is easy compared to the enormous responsibility of raising the result.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by dkw: Syn, childbirth is easy compared to the enormous responsibility of raising the result.
But it seems so... painful *Shudder* And it seems like it could last for DAYS!!! Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
But raising a child lasts a lifetime.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
So true. it's what I've been thinking about constantly. I'm not sure I'm mature enough yet.
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
And there will still be lots of "experts" telling you it's not the right time to push, even though that's all you want to do.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
I was adopted.
Can't speak for either set of my parents -- never met the first set -- but I've never noticed the slightest traumatic residue from it. I had parents who wanted me. What more do you need?
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: That's not a bad analogy, CT. I think I like it.
I don't think I'm hypocritical about adoption. We've considered adopting before, but we never felt like it was the right thing for us to do at the time.
mph, I don't think that makes you hypocritical at all. It just sounds to me like you are in favor of parenting, regardless of how the child comes into their life.
That's a great place to be, IMO. Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I'm still doing research and reading a lot of stuff on the adoption forum and wondering what I can do to help any children of mine deal with this sort of trauma. When the time comes, will I have enough money or insurance to get them into therapy to help them? It's a bit ridiculous, they probably haven't even been born yet, but I really want to be a good parent to them and help them grow up to be strong, confident individuals who won't get their fragile little souls cut down so much...
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Raising a child is hard enough with two parents, I can only imagine how difficult it would be alone. I could never, in good conscience, adopt a child without having a full partner in the endeavor.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by James Tiberius Kirk: Online, you can find people on both sides of any issue.
Any issue.
--j_k
That's a lie... oh wait
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
I considered having children alone, and I rejected the idea for just the reason mph said. Single moms do a great job, many of them, in very difficult circumstances, and I have nothing but admiration for them. Life happens, and one can't be sure one won't end up a single mom by whatever route, but I just decided that I should not deliberately set out to become one. I felt like I owed my children at least a shot at a two-parent family. And I felt I deserved a real husband rather than someone who was a bio-dad of my children, someone whom I would probably choose because I loved him, but who would not love me or the children enough in return to be there for us as a real part of our family. That just seemed too cruel to my kids, that I would deliberately deprive them of a father.
Of course, so far I've deprived them of existence, instead, so I'm not sure they would agree with me, but then, you have to choose what seems best.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
As for adoption, that's totally different! I think it's a great idea for all concerned. Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I have to somehow get the sort of husband who is on the same page as me. Someone who will not HIT the kids. I got hit when I was a kid when I lived with my mother, and sometimes with my grandmother, and also when I lived with my uncle and other grandmother. I didn't think I really deserved it. But, at least when my uncle hit me with a belt, he'd explain why and talk to me. But still, no hitting them. It will be ages before I could find such a guy though ><. Someone cool. I don't have the maturity or the support system to be a single parent and I'd have to do all the cleaning myself.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by James Tiberius Kirk: Online, you can find people on both sides of any issue.
Any issue.
--j_k
No you can't!
Sorry I just had to....
Ok how about this
Cottage cheese is best eaten by itself and not smothered in root beer. Good luck finding somebody who disagrees with me on that.
edit: Bah Orincoro beat me.
Posted by dean (Member # 167) on :
Cottage cheese is nasty by itself. I'd rather have it with the root beer. At least then I can drink the root beer around the cottage cheese, and it's not as if the root beer can ruin the taste of the cottage cheese.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Cottage cheese is disgusting by itself, so I would guess that it can only be better with root beer. I would totally give it a shot.
-o-
quote:Originally posted by Dan_raven: The major difference between foreign and domestic adoption is the role of the biological parents. Here in the US biological parents have rights to the children they give up to adoption.
I don't think this is a completely accurate statement. Not all US biological parents have rights to their children. My childrens' biological parents have no rights. And most children adopted from overseas are not adopted from their biological parents, but from some sort of foster/orphanage system, which makes infant adoptions not the appropriate analog to compare to. Rather, the most analogous domestic situation to compare to is DCF adoptions.
[ December 24, 2006, 01:32 PM: Message edited by: Icarus ]
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
DCF?
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Department of Children and Families. Kids in government custody, usually because they have been removed from their parents due to abuse or, more rarely, because their parents have died and there is not a convenient relative to take them in.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Of course, in a few countries, bio parents have MORE rights than U.S. parents who give up their kids.
Posted by stihl1 (Member # 1562) on :
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: That's what I'm trying to do, but I feel like some of them need to focus their rage on the system and the way it's set up, but people don't always get angry at the right people...
That's life. You can't really change their opinions, and I'm not really sure you should. Not everyone has to agree with you, you just have to be comfortable and secure with your opinions. If you have that, it shouldn't matter if people oppose you. Like I said, people aren't going to stop adopting babies, and bringing attention to the problems with the system will only help to make that system better.
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
My biggest annoyance with the State of Florida is that they don't adopt anyone under the age of 5 alone. They're all part of sibling groups they won't seperate.
Now, how can every child 5 and under possibly be part of a group of siblings? Sure, the state helps with medical, therapy, and college. But when I adopt at almost 40 and become a first time mother, I'd really just like one.
So I'll be looking for which countries can guarantee me that the birth parents can't come back and take my child my child away from me. That's probably my largest concern.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
It's not that every child under the age of 5 is part of a sibling group, it's that those that are not get snapped up right away (if they are white or whitish, and if they have no glaring special needs). Also, there are very few children under the age of five, period. It takes years to terminate parental rights, so for a child under five to be there, either the abuse was especially heinous, or DCF was called in for the abuse of an older sibling and the younger one(s) were taken away at that time, or DCF took the children away temporarily but the birth-parents did not feel like going through the necessary steps to get their children back, and gave them away willingly at that point. So yeah, if you're looking for children under the age of five, it helps to be willing to take siblings, or to be willing to take black children, or to be willing to take children with more extreme needs. Beyond that (and I totally understand if that's not what you're looking for) I would suggest waiting. If you wait long enough, and keep nagging your caseworker, and look online for children awaiting adoption yourself, you'll probably get what you want sooner or later. Of course, in the meantime your caseworker will keep trying to tempt you with what you didn't want to take on because her/his job is to place children, not to please you. (Sad, I know, that they don't realize those need to be synonymous, but that's the pressures of their job. Almost nobody's first choice is a child with Down's syndrome, say, but somehow they have to convince someone to take those children.)
But I have personally seen single children under the age of five get adopted from Florida DCF custody.
(They will eventually split siblings, but for children that young the need to do so is not as glaring, because someone will likely be willing to take them as a group, and splitting siblings is problematic and traumatic. After the age of five, they start feeling a little more desperate to place the kids and are more willing to split them up, if necessary. They will be much more likely to split off a young sibling, though, if they get a group of, say, seven kids--which sometimes does happen.)
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
Interseting that none of that is on their website. You'd think they'd want all the info out there so people can make an informed decision. My half-informed decision was not to bother with them.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by AvidReader: My biggest annoyance with the State of Florida is that they don't adopt anyone under the age of 5 alone. They're all part of sibling groups they won't seperate.
Now, how can every child 5 and under possibly be part of a group of siblings? Sure, the state helps with medical, therapy, and college. But when I adopt at almost 40 and become a first time mother, I'd really just like one.
So I'll be looking for which countries can guarantee me that the birth parents can't come back and take my child my child away from me. That's probably my largest concern.
There's China to consider, most of the children there are abandoned and since it's illegal to abanadon children there, they don't come back to seek their child. If the parent doesn't come back after a month, the child belongs to the state. Other countries are like that as well, I'm still looking into them.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
Icarus, you are a great father and a great guy.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
*blush* Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Syn, I'll say this, because someone really should and I'm the designated mean guy here. The time you're planning on spending on looking into adoption would be much better spent with you focusing on getting yourself into a place where you would actually be a candidate and in a good place to adopt. Right now, from what I've seen, you are far from being there, financially or - I'll be the super bad guy and say - emotionally/maturity-wise.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: Syn, I'll say this, because someone really should and I'm the designated mean guy here. The time you're planning on spending on looking into adoption would be much better spent with you focusing on getting yourself into a place where you would actually be a candidate and in a good place to adopt. Right now, from what I've seen, you are far from being there, financially or - I'll be the super bad guy and say - emotionally/maturity-wise.
This is not the sort of statement I need because don't you think I'm aware of this already? Why do people persist in pointing out stuff I already know? It's not just now, it's been like this for ages. I know that I don't have a permanent job. I know i don't have a house yet and I cannot drive yet. I am aware of this! Why do you think that the moment I decided to do this, my life shifted and now every decision I make will lead me to doing this thing! I'll probably end up getting the same sort of thing from my relatives (which is one reason why I haven't told them yet.) I hate when people point out the obvious. Especially since in this topic and in the last topic I made about adoption I said I wasn't mature enough to be a parent, so why even bother telling me this when I KNOW!
Also, I'm still wondering if I should be mad at a friend for saying they wouldn't give me a child, but really, it's so irratating when people insist on lecturing a person about the obvious. It's really not helpful at all.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
I adopted my daughter, but only as a legal technicality. My partner and I decided we wanted a child, and we did everything together. Had I been male, no one would have disputed that she's my daughter, despite the lack of genetic connection. But because I'm not, I had to do the adoption in order to have the law recognize that I'm her mother.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Also, do you honestly think I'm going to go out and adopt a child right now? It's tempting, I really want to do it more than almost anything, but there's no way I'm in the position to go out and care for a child. This involves a lot of thought, a lot of research, a lot of soul searching and a total transformation that started just a few weeks ago. There's a process. You have no idea how much I lay in bed just wondering if I can do right by a child and raise them differently than I was raised. You have no idea the sort of thought i put into things. I never just go out and do stuff inpulsively with no thought to the consequences. Hell, even before adopting a rabbit I did a ton of research, read a great deal of books and websites about the proper way to care for rabbits rather than just go out and get one and feed them supermarket food (Which is just about the worse stuff you can give a rabbit, filled with fat, seeds and nuts and not nearly enough fiber) and lock one in a tiny little cage. I know that adopting a child is filled with challenges, that it won't be easy, especially adopting someone overseas that could have a lot of issues that will need to be addressed. Taking care of a child will be hard enough, but how can I make sure that any child of mine doesn't suffer from low self esteem or feel ashamed about where they come from? The anti sites bother me, but they did bring up a lot of issues I never even thought about, how a person can grow up in a family and feel like they don't belong. Which is odd, because I was raised by my biological family and never felt like i totally fit in. It doesn't seem like it, but i seldom do anything without putting a lot of thought into it or looking at every angle but in the future, I will adopt and that is one thing that is totally set in stone unless the need for it disapears and I doubt it will in two years.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Because, Syn, I'm trying to help. You have a way of posting that leads me to think that you often have a very surface way of looking at things. It's my personal opinion that you are probably using things like your adoption kick or watching TV shows you hate and then ranting about them to avoid some of the hard/sacry/tough things out there.
My advice was pretty clear, but I'll reiterate it. You would be better off if you stopped fanatsizing and putting research into adoption and redirected that effort and time into getting yourself to a point where adoption might actually be seomthing you'd be eligible for and could handle.
I don't say these things because I like saying them. I am not mean out of personal inclination. I certainly don't do it to be liked or thanked for it. I say these things, I'm mean, because I think they need to be said and experience has shown me that I'm one of the few people on the Rack that is willing to say mean things but still be trying to help someone.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Synethesia: Thank you for being willing to take a child into your home and work hard towards that child living a wonderful life with you. And thank you for being aware that taking care of a child is no small thing. Best of luck in preparing your home for your future children Try not to get bent out of shape when somebody urges caution. Your smart, but there are folks who think good intentions and love will solve every problem. Mr S rubbed you the wrong way, don't let it get to you too much. Just assure skeptics that you are aware of their concerns, its really all you can do.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:You have no idea how much I lay in bed just wondering if I can do right by a child and raise them differently than I was raised. You have no idea the sort of thought i put into things. I never just go out and do stuff inpulsively with no thought to the consequences. Hell, even before adopting a rabbit I did a ton of research, read a great deal of books and websites about the proper way to care for rabbits rather than just go out and get one and feed them supermarket food (Which is just about the worse stuff you can give a rabbit, filled with fat, seeds and nuts and not nearly enough fiber) and lock one in a tiny little cage.
This is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about.
edit: Syn, there were Hatrackers that were trying to help you with your work and living situation (both of which you were complaining about pretty heavily) that walked away when you stopped wanting to talk about any of that and only wanted to focus on your rabbit.
In this case I'm telling you, stop planning out the adoption thing. Stop laying up pondering the situation. You've got a ton of hurdles you need to get through before you get anywhere near adoption and these ar the things that you should be focusing on. If you don't, you will likely never adopt a child, so all this thought won't amount to anything.
[ December 26, 2006, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: MrSquicky ]
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky:
quote:You have no idea how much I lay in bed just wondering if I can do right by a child and raise them differently than I was raised. You have no idea the sort of thought i put into things. I never just go out and do stuff inpulsively with no thought to the consequences. Hell, even before adopting a rabbit I did a ton of research, read a great deal of books and websites about the proper way to care for rabbits rather than just go out and get one and feed them supermarket food (Which is just about the worse stuff you can give a rabbit, filled with fat, seeds and nuts and not nearly enough fiber) and lock one in a tiny little cage.
This is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about.
edit: Syn, there were Hatrackers that were trying to help you with your work and living situation (both of which you were complaining about pretty heavily) that walked away when you stopped wanting to talk about any of that and only wanted to focus on your rabbit.
In this case I'm telling you, stop planning out the adoption thing. Stop laying up pondering the situation. You've got a ton of hurdles you need to get through before you get anywhere near adoption and these ar the things that you should be focusing on. If you don't, you will likely never adopt a child, so all this thought won't amount to anything.
I'm aware of this. The frustrating thing is currently- I do not have the money, adoptiong costs a great deal of money. I have a one room apartment, I'd need a house. I also need a husband too. It could take between 3-5 years before I'm able to adopt. If I'm aware of this, then why do I need you to point this out to me? Really want it does is just undo me. It just... knocks down my confidence and takes the wind out of my sails and that's not what I need right now. What I need is to focus on a way to make this happen and doing the research, looking at it from every angle helps me to focus. It helps me to see the path a bit clearer, it's the way my mind works. Knowing that it's a hard road, being aware of the issues I have to face will help me work on getting a steady better job, and will help to give me the confidence to work on that one hurdle I have... But when I try to explain myself, it will only make me sound flaky, like I don't think things out, and i really don't need this. I get enough of this sort of thing from relatives when I make the slightest stupid mistake or when something happens that I have no control over. Nagging, lecturing, pointing out my faults, that doesn't work with me. It's not like I need someone to say, go for it and do it because I am determined to do what I want within reason after looking at every angle, trying to find out what I need to know to form a framework or sorts that might help out when the time comes. it's like knowing how to get to a place without knowing how to give directions. I just can't help getting angry because I've had to put up with this sort of thing for years and i'm at my breaking point right now. But, at least for the first time in a long time i know what my path is and nothing is really going to deviate me from it, but the criticism... It just crashes me down, sometimes people think people need that, that reality check, but I don't think I need that.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:It could take between 3-5 years before I'm able to adopt.
That seems like a very optimistic estimate, from what little I know.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:It could take between 3-5 years before I'm able to adopt.
That seems like a very optimistic estimate, from what little I know.
Realistic it will probably be a lot longer... More like 10 years -_- I'm hoping about 5 years though, but it depends on a lot of factors.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
As I've noted before, adopting doesn't always cost a lot of money. It cost me a grand total of about $400 in lawyer fees, IIRC. And then I got a $1000 tax credit for two straight years--again, IIRC. I also get paid every month.
(Not that I'm encouraging anybody to get into it for the money.)
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
MrSquicky, you need to be introduced to the concept of stewardship. It means this, that for each action, decision, need, there is a person whose natural stewardship that falls under. Counseling people tends to fall under the stewardship of people they've asked for counsel, close friends, and those with particular experience in the area they need counseling.
I understand that you want to be a help, but guiding people can always be done with love and not condescension. For instance, you might think about taking time to read sources about adoption, what all is required, and link Syn to things of interest that you find, as a help to her. You might, instead of putting Syn down, have phrased your point as, "There are lots of tough requirements that will be difficult to meet. Have you thought about how you're going to achieve 'x'?" And then made helpful suggestions on achieving it.
Since you care, since you are wanting to help, why not add to the helpful content of your posts, and omit the parts that are put-downs? Why not take more trouble and actually deliver aid, instead of discouragement? I think that would make all the difference in the world in how you were received, and in what you were actually able to accomplish.
Because we all know that for any enterprise of merit, there are always naysayers. Anyone who accomplishes anything must overcome the discouragement and negativity of the naysayers. If all you have to offer is discouragement, you risk people lumping you with them, and therefore ignoring you.
[ December 26, 2006, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: Tatiana ]
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Tat, I think you may have missed the entire point of what I had to say. I think you may also be letting your "No one should ever be mean." filter affect your impression of what I was trying to do.
You are in no position to judge either my conception of stewardship or my concern for Syn.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
What I judge is the amount of helpfulness I felt when I read your post, vs. the amount of condescension and put-down I read in it.
Its intended recipient seems to agree with me.
If you meant for it to be helpful and not condescending, I'm thinking maybe you weren't very successful in achieving that goal. That's what I wanted to point out. along with suggesting some possible reasons why that might have been the case.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
While I do agree that Squick's post has clearly not had the affect he wanted, I don't think all -- or even most -- of the blame lies with him.
I also think that posting on a public forum is inviting comment, all notions of stewardship aside.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote:I think you may have missed the entire point of what I had to say. I think you may also be letting your "No one should ever be mean." filter affect your impression of what I was trying to do.
I don't have a no one should ever be mean mentality, and I didn't think your post was exceptionally helpful. I agree with Tatiana, that instead of "you're not mature enough to adopt and you should work on that", it would be far more constructive to say "before seriously considering adopting, you want to make sure you have done..." whatever it is you think needs to be done. The way you worded it seemed more of an attack than a help.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
This is how I operate. I like doing research before I do something, it motivates me. I know it's premature to want to prepare for something that won't happen for years, but it's encouraging for me. It gives me a goal to work towards. The problem is, when you say, "stop doing research on this and instead focus on doing this, you don't realize that doing research and planning is what helps me to make the next steps! It gives me the confidence to push for a perminant job, which will mean eventually being able to make over $30,000 a year and to have the sort of job that will give me time off when I do adopt or maybe even reimburse me for some of my fees. That's how my mind works! It may not be logical to other people, but it makes sense to me!
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
For some reason, Tatiana's post ("You need to be introduced to the concept of..." and the description of how Squick should have worded his post in particular) to Squick sounds more condesending to me than Squick's post to Syn did. I don't think it means her post is more condescending. I just think it means that different things sound condescending to different people and in differing amounts.
Assuming Tatiana meant her post to exhibit the qualities she's advocating, then I think it's clear that too much of this depends on individual preference for one way to be considered actually "condescending" and the other to not.
I also think that trying to word it in an manner unnatural to the author makes it more likely that the final product will be taken badly, because the writer will not be as comfortable with the format. In other words, if Squick tries to give advice in the manner that comes naturally to Tatiana, it is more likely that he will offend those who prefer Tatiana's style and those who prefer his own, rather than just one or the other.
Given the importance of what Squick had to say, I'm glad he just said it.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: So true. it's what I've been thinking about constantly. I'm not sure I'm mature enough yet.
But if I already stated right here that I don't think I'm mature enough yet, and the same thing in the other topic, do I really need someone to say it? I'm not going to run out adopt a child right now. That wouldn't be logical. I wouldn't even pass a homestudy with the pigsty I live in right now. I'd wait until I got a house, a better paying job, until I had more structure, all of which take years! But, I see no reason why I shouldn't get ready now. Why I shouldn't continue to have no criminal record, no major drinking problems, or why I should lose weight? A lot can happen in several years, but at least I am on the PATH. When folks point out the obvious like my friend did yesterday (I should have gotten pissed at her for that) all it does is undo years of hard work with one harsh remark. It's like a kid getting a B in math when they are horrible in math and having a parent say, "Why didn't you get an A plus?" The fact is, that what people think doesn't matter completely. I will simply work hard, get a better job, save up money and use every major decision I make to lead me to the point where I can be a good parent for a child or more than one child. I wouldn't do stuff like this without thought, without preperation, especially while living in a scronky one room apartment. I will use the mistakes I made in the past to become a better person. These sort of criticisms just don't help. There really is enough negativity in the world, why add more? There has to be some sort of way to build a person up and make them stronger without rubbing their noses in their mistakes all the time.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:When folks point out the obvious like my friend did yesterday (I should have gotten pissed at her for that) all it does is undo years of hard work with one harsh remark.
Why would that undo years of hard work?
quote:These sort of criticisms just don't help. There really is enough negativity in the world, why add more?
Sometimes negativity and criticism is the less of two evils, especially if you're afraid that a friend is going to make a mistake which whill have dire consequences. Sometimes it is wrong to just sit by and be supportive.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:When folks point out the obvious like my friend did yesterday (I should have gotten pissed at her for that) all it does is undo years of hard work with one harsh remark.
Why would that undo years of hard work?
It just, crashes me down. I go from being a competent adult on the right path to an awkward stupid jr high student. I can't stand that feeling. I really don't want to go back to say, November of 2000, or Spring of 2001 and people talking to me like I don't have any sense, like I haven't thought of all of these issues just makes me feel like that all over again.
quote:These sort of criticisms just don't help. There really is enough negativity in the world, why add more?
Sometimes negativity and criticism is the less of two evils, especially if you're afraid that a friend is going to make a mistake which whill have dire consequences. Sometimes it is wrong to just sit by and be supportive.
This would be helpful if I was going to go out tomorrow and adopt without thinking abd becoming mature first, but I'm not, so if I'm not, then why do I need the criticism? If I wanted to be criticised I'd tell my relatives, and if I wanted advice, I'd ask for it, but people give it to me for free. I hate to sound hostile, but I've put up with this sort of thing for years, constant criticism without really deserviing it. Yes, I've made a lot of mistakes, but the useful thing about making these sort of mistakes is that it has taught me what NOT to do and what doesn't work. Sometimes there's a pattern. I'm not just sitting around slacking and doing nothing. If there's overtime I'll work 10-12 hours a day to pay my own rent. Usually criticism just hits me right where it hurts, right where I am vunerable, and I'm not sure if that is completely helpful... It's been happening for too long, and I am snapping, so I am sorry if I am a bit harsh.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
It seems to me that posting about one's plans on Hatrack is implicitly asking for advice.
If you didn't want to know what the folks on Hatrack think about it, why did you tell them?
[ December 26, 2006, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I don't know. I haven't even told my relatives, and it really is something I'm going to do years down the line, folks did get that I'm doing this YEARS FROM NOW and not right now, right? They don't think I'm that stupid, do they? This is me, currently getting on the path to make this a reality.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
Syn,
I don't see anything wrong with having long term goals, so long as they don't take over your life and take time away from other things that need doing. I think people are focusing more on the second part of that than the first part and I think that's unfortunate. Like you, I find long term goals motivating to getting the short term things done. I find having a big picture in mind helpful. For what it's worth, I think it's really cool that you want to adopt and are trying to change your life so that you are able to take on that responsibility.
quote: I also get paid every month.
Icarus, I meant to ask about this earlier. What do you get paid for? I was under the impression that foster parents recieved payment, adopted parents did not. I'm probably mistaken. Could you illuminate this subject for me?
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Thanks. It just kind of hurts to be criticised this way because it makes me seem like I'm not thinking things through and I am. I feel like my life has shifted in a way. But if I could just keep things to myself instead... So folks don't say stuff like, "I doubt they'd give you a child." or stuff like that><
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Amanecer, I receive a subsidy to defray the added expenses incurred by caring for special needs children. I don't know to what extent I actually do have added expenses, because I can't really compare. But I sure am grateful for that little check every time I see it.
EDIT TO ADD: Since I've commented on other harsh DCF realities in this thread, I might as well go ahead and say that, from DCF's standpoint (not mine) it is probably an incentive, because they know they have a difficult time placing special needs kids.
Posted by stihl1 (Member # 1562) on :
I didn't think Squicky was being critical or condescending at all. In fact, it was the first thing I thought of when I read Syn wanted to adopt a child. It's brutally honest, but imo right to the point. Syn obviously has a lot of issues to work through. She grew up in an abusive household, that will damage anyone. Before she can start to raise a kid she needs to work through that and understand how that affects her, in every aspect of life. To push ahead without that, and simply get a child to show she can raise one without the abuse is misguided. It seems to me that she thinks adopting a child will solve her problems. It won't. Raising children is incredibly difficult, it's not going to solve any problems just create more. I see no difference between her wanting to adopt a child and a young girl who wants to get pregnant to have a child so someone will love her. Either way, a young woman with so much anger and so many problems should be focusing on becoming whole and dealing with her issues before dragging another soul into those problems.
And these constant claims of researching and focusing on this long term goal seem like nothing more than a way of avoiding the issues you have with yourself and your own health now. By focusing on something so long term you take the focus off yourself and the issues you have. That's not healthy. You keep saying the criticism doesn't help, that's because it makes you think about yourself and your problems instead of focusing on adopting a kid. No one's saying you can't adopt a kid or shouldn't plan for it. You can do that, but you really need to take care of your own issues as well.
Sorry Syn if you don't agree with that. The best thing for you would be to read and understand that, not lash out and try to prove that opinion is wrong. Getting angry at criticism is a sure sign of immaturity. I'm not trying to tell you this to be right, or put you down, or whatever motive you might think. I'm trying to tell you this because you're paper thin and I can see right through to that problem. Take a minute, listen, and understand. I don't know you, I've only read your posts, it's just advice. I'm not trying to prove you wrong or put you down. Just trying to help. Sometimes you gotta be upfront and honest to help.
PS I agree with Dagonee. The post by Tatiana was far more condescending and critical than Squicky's.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
If getting angry at criticism is a sure sign of immaturity, I have an awful lot of growing up to do . . .
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
I have a hard time with criticism too, in either direction. I get sick to my stomach at compliments, and get very agitated when people point out faults in me that I already know about. Because I know this about myself, and have had very little success at mediating the emotions/behaviors in my reactions to commentary, I just try to avoid situations where I have to be exposed to direct commentary at all. I'm not sure if that is immature, since I can't ever see a way to mature out of it (and here I am setting myself up...)
On the other hand, I agree that Syn is probably being too "day dreamy" but also that mph is handling it in a way that I personally would find more damaging than useful. In particular, since it does come off as somewhat attacking, if Syn was TRULY immature she might respond by doing something stupid and inviting over the next guy she sees just to prove she could be a mom. As long as Syn isn't going to go out and bring home a child tomorrow, I see no harm in her daydreaming about it, or even asking us for interactive support in the dream.
As far as adoption goes,I would love to do it if I could afford it someday. As it is, I'm in the same boat as Syn, barely scraping by with money, energy, and orginization and I've already got my own biological son to take care of.
As a child I always thought I could NEVER adopt. A few months before my fourth birthday my parents adopted two mentally retarded boys that were just a little younger than me. During the adoption, my mom found out she was pregnant. I went from being a prodigious only child to having three little brothers in less than half a year. To top it all off, two of these new brothers looked like kids, but couldn't do ANYTHING I considered fun. Growing up with them was very difficult, espescially since it turned out the doctors were wrong about my father being infertile, and they managed to have two MORE sons later in my childhood. However, the adoption of my two MR brothers truly made my childhood extremely difficult. I was annoyed at always standing out as being an even "weirder" family because of them, at having to make excuses for their behavior, at having to pretend to think they were no complete morons, things like that. On the other hand, I did care about them, very much. I had nightmares where one or the other of them died, and it always devistated me. I was riddled with guilt because I couldn't figure out if the reason I didn't love them the "same" as my other brothers was because they were retarded or because they were adopted, and neither was a good answer. However, as I grew up, I came to appreciate them more. Still, I never thought I would be capable of adopting, because I didn't think I could manage that much stress again.
Then I met my ex, and his little girl, and I began to think that God makes even stranger plans in the universe. Anne-Marie wasn't even two yet then, and was severely handicapped suffereing from an undiagnosed illness. I knew this before I got serious with my ex, and could have just turn way and run... but I couldn't bring myself to do it. I fell in love with him, and truly loved her like a daughter. I was trying to adopt her, but it didn't manage to happen before my ex left me. Even so, one day I hope to have enough money to "grease" all the legal wheels and adopt her. She lives with her grandparents right now, but they're old, and I don't see how they can raise her for another 13 years. It is a little different, I suppose, because she is my son's half-sister, but my ability to take her into my heart has made me rethink my views on adopting in general.
Now I believe that if I ever do get re-married, I would like to consider adopting a needy child, either from the US or abroad. I also have considered doing it as a Single Mom if my economic state gets secure enough. I know the difficulties there, but if I did that I would be adopting an "older child" and I think even a single parent home is better than most foster facilities.
Oh, and as a last note, most states do provide monthly "stipends" along with Medicaid to adopted special needs children so that parents will not find the possibility of daunting medical bills, home modifications, and possible therapies a barrier from adopting. On one of those TV news shows last year they showed a couple who had adopted fully 30 handicapped children, and the state was "paying" them like 17k a month or something like that. It was neat, because it wasn'a business to them, they really were a family, and they loved and cared for the kids, but they needed every penny of that money just to keep the house running. If not for that couple, most of those kids would be in state hospitals... ick!
Posted by stihl1 (Member # 1562) on :
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: If getting angry at criticism is a sure sign of immaturity, I have an awful lot of growing up to do . . .
Good luck with that.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I didn't grow up in a totally abusive household, my mother, when I lived with her, on and off for about two or three years would hit me, my grandmother, who I lived with more didn't for the most part, she was more stable, but she could be verbaly abusive at times. I do not want to adopt a child because I think that will solve all of my problems, that's not completely logical. I want a chance to raise a child that doesn't have parents to take care of them, this will be years from now because I know I don't have the maturity yet, but I sure as hell wouldn't abuse them. I don't think my parents abused me, but my father was indifferent for the most part and my mother grew up in the "old school" where hitting a child for the slightest thing was common place. I hope I'd never do that. It doesn't make sense to me to hit a child because of your own anger and there has to be better ways to handle it. It's just you do not know enough about me to judge me, that's why I get so angry. Because I have put up with this sort of thing for so long and have repressed the rage I feel in order to be polite and respectful towards people. yes, I have issues to work through, who doesn't, but you are making me sound like some sort of scatterbrained teenager who's just going to get pregnant right away without thinking of the consequences. This is what I resent. Being talked to like I'm stupid, like I don't think things through. I can't put up with that sort of thing from people anymore. I have to find some sort of polite way to tell them to back off and bother me if I were about to get knocked up tomorrow or something, but not to bother me when I'm planning for something that will happened years from now and using that time to prepare for it. Plus, I need to add that this is a personal decision. It's not something that will be rushed into as the adoption process when I'm old enough to adopt can take years to finish. It's a time consuming, money consuming process. I don't thing getting enraged is a sign of immaturity. You have no idea how long I've had to put up with this, it's ridiculous. I've graduated through college, I didn't experiment with drugs or get pregnant young the way some of my cousins have, and yet I've had to put up with judgement for years. I've seen friends around me do and behave in ways that frustrate me, yet I've had to keep silent as they'd go, "Do you know what your problem is?" I know I'm not perfect, but I'm working on becoming a better person and evaluating why I want to adopt a child and all of those things. I do not need any more criticism unless people have done more than judge me by a handful of posts or by the mistakes I made back in 2001.
quote:Originally posted by stihl1: I didn't think Squicky was being critical or condescending at all. In fact, it was the first thing I thought of when I read Syn wanted to adopt a child. It's brutally honest, but imo right to the point. Syn obviously has a lot of issues to work through. She grew up in an abusive household, that will damage anyone. Before she can start to raise a kid she needs to work through that and understand how that affects her, in every aspect of life. To push ahead without that, and simply get a child to show she can raise one without the abuse is misguided. It seems to me that she thinks adopting a child will solve her problems. It won't. Raising children is incredibly difficult, it's not going to solve any problems just create more. I see no difference between her wanting to adopt a child and a young girl who wants to get pregnant to have a child so someone will love her. Either way, a young woman with so much anger and so many problems should be focusing on becoming whole and dealing with her issues before dragging another soul into those problems.
And these constant claims of researching and focusing on this long term goal seem like nothing more than a way of avoiding the issues you have with yourself and your own health now. By focusing on something so long term you take the focus off yourself and the issues you have. That's not healthy. You keep saying the criticism doesn't help, that's because it makes you think about yourself and your problems instead of focusing on adopting a kid. No one's saying you can't adopt a kid or shouldn't plan for it. You can do that, but you really need to take care of your own issues as well.
Sorry Syn if you don't agree with that. The best thing for you would be to read and understand that, not lash out and try to prove that opinion is wrong. Getting angry at criticism is a sure sign of immaturity. I'm not trying to tell you this to be right, or put you down, or whatever motive you might think. I'm trying to tell you this because you're paper thin and I can see right through to that problem. Take a minute, listen, and understand. I don't know you, I've only read your posts, it's just advice. I'm not trying to prove you wrong or put you down. Just trying to help. Sometimes you gotta be upfront and honest to help.
PS I agree with Dagonee. The post by Tatiana was far more condescending and critical than Squicky's.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:I don't think my parents abused me, but my father was indifferent for the most part and my mother grew up in the "old school" where hitting a child for the slightest thing was common place.
How could "hitting a child for the slightest thing" be anything other than abuse?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:PS I agree with Dagonee. The post by Tatiana was far more condescending and critical than Squicky's.
To be clear, I specifically said that her post was not more condescending. I said it sounded more condescending to me. The difference between those two statements is at the heart of what I was trying to say.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Not to distract from the beating up of Squicky, but I do have an anecdote about adoption.
My step-siblings are adopted, because my step-mother's first husband couldn't have children. They are happy and part of the family. The daughter did search for and find her birth mother during a chaotic period of her life that included two divorces and the rediscovering was a bit traumatic - the birth mother she found was NOT the kind of person she had been hoping to find.
The son is perfectly happy, never wondered or searched for birth parents, and is the joy of his mother.
The two kids are very different, which my stepmother used to chalk up to genetics. Now that she's married my dad and noticed that my dad's four kids are as different as we could possibly be, she is just chalking it up to native personalities.
I have heard that some people are nervous about adopting because the child might not be much like them in looks, temperament, or gifts. My three siblings and I look nothing like our parents and are all wildly different from each other, so if my parents were hoping for mini-mes they were out of luck, despite the genetics.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by stihl1:
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: If getting angry at criticism is a sure sign of immaturity, I have an awful lot of growing up to do . . .
Good luck with that.
Oh, look! Another sign of maturity!
Posted by stihl1 (Member # 1562) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by stihl1:
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: If getting angry at criticism is a sure sign of immaturity, I have an awful lot of growing up to do . . .
Good luck with that.
Oh, look! Another sign of maturity!
No, that's called sarcasm.
And as far as Syn goes, I rest my case. Anyone trained to deal with childhood abuse would eat that last post up.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I give up. You've already made my mind about me, anything i say will just confirm your belief in me. But, I have to admit, things have gotten better for me over the years. Now to work on making things even better.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:But, I have to admit, things have gotten better for me over the years. Now to work on making things even better.
That is something that I don't think anybody in this thread would disagree with. Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I see two things.
A) one can have long term idealistic goals and dreams, that are just talk and never lead to action.
B) one can have long term idealistic goals and dreams, that motivate to one to action, in order to make the goal become reality.
All of us have way too many in the A category and not enough in the B category. I guess there is a C) option of failing to dream and set goals at all, and that would be even worse.
AJ
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
And I'm talking about D) Goals and dreams that we devote time and effort into fantasizing about, instead of focusing on the things we need to do today to bring those things about.
It's like devoting a lot of time towards figuring out what kind of deal you are going to set up with an agent after writing a best-selling novel instead of sitting down to write the thing.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Isn't D the same as A? It is in my brain.
AJ
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I would have interpreted it that way without the example. But with the example, the difference is that A involves no effort, and D involves the wrong effort.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Dreaming about something to begin with implies a time investment to me. And talking about it also involves a time investment as well. I wasn't really categorizing it in that sense.
I spent a great deal of time figuring out once how I would build an aquarium in my backyard, based on the number of cubic meters of water it would require to keep a dolphin. The aquarium walls would have dwarfed the house. But I don't regret dreaming about it. Or putting in the hours of thinking about it that I did. Maybe it was wasted, maybe not.
AJ
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
It depends. In a literal sense, I guess you could say that D is a subset of A. In this specific case, I think A carries a conotation of being, at the very worst, harmless while D can be something that is very detrimental.
To quote the sages:
1) A dozen hot air balloons.
2) ??????
3) Profit!!!
Focusing on step 3, creating elaborate plans for what you are going to do when you reach that step, makes it so that you're never actually going to get to step 3.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Hmm. I guess in my own life I'm too stubborn not to get from 1 to 3 in most realistic cases. (I realize that building an aquarium in the backyard was unrealistic... I also gave up on the horse corral)
However, if I actually want something bad enough step two doesn't matter. I will get to step three regardless, even if it means a couple of false starts or wrong turns. I'll get there.
But, I have to have the imagination of A in order to come up with a goal to begin with. I'll have a thousand (maybe more) hairbrained ones before I find one worth pursuing.
AJ
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I've wasted a day or two recently looking at ferret and herpetology rescues. But I still haven't decided, if I really want to rescue an animal yet. I don't think I'm at the D stage yet (although my boyfriend might disagree...)
AJ
Posted by stihl1 (Member # 1562) on :
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: I give up. You've already made my mind about me, anything i say will just confirm your belief in me. But, I have to admit, things have gotten better for me over the years. Now to work on making things even better.
No, I've formed an opinion about you. I think you need to work on yourself first. Your posts, the things you write, just reinforce that opinion. I see an angry young woman that has a lot of issues that directly trace back to your problems in childhood.
Saying I've made my mind up about you implies I've judged you. I'm not judging you, I'm just pointing out the things you do, how you act and behave are direct indications of your issue. I don't think you're a bad person, or shouldn't have goals, or shouldn't adopt, whatever. I think you need to work on yourself first, and once you come to a better place with yourself, all those other things will fall into place. That's not a judgement, that's advice.
When I was in my early 20s, I was an extremely angry young man. I still don't know how I made it out of that time without ending up dead or in jail. Some of the things I did were stupid, and in fact just acting out because of my problems. My personal life, my work life, my interactions with people, all were a wreck because of my hatred of everyone and everything. Once I started getting a bit older, and working through those problems, and understanding why I was so angry and the root of that anger, everything else started falling in place. Once I understood why I acted the way I did, and the reasons for my anger, and what my place in life was, everything else fell into place. Too often I see people who don't take that step to understanding, and go through life just screwing things up because they aren't at peace with themselves. They don't understand their problems, so they can't understand why they act the way they do and where the root of their behavior comes from. So they keep stumbling through, screwing up their lives and often their children's lives because of that.
All I'm saying is learn to understand who you are and why you do the things you do and come to a peace with yourself before you start leaping into major life changing decisions. Focusing on dreams for the future just deflects from you focusing on the problems you have today.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by BannaOj: I see two things.
A) one can have long term idealistic goals and dreams, that are just talk and never lead to action.
B) one can have long term idealistic goals and dreams, that motivate to one to action, in order to make the goal become reality.
All of us have way too many in the A category and not enough in the B category. I guess there is a C) option of failing to dream and set goals at all, and that would be even worse.
AJ
B is how i work. It's like with the story, I wasn't ready to write it when I started it, because I waited so long there's all these great ideas that are going into it that wouldn't have if i wrote it back in 1999. But, I can't just say, maybe it will be better when I'm 40. I got to WRITE this thing, but I don't even want to talk about that... But, to me at least it's coming together so well!
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I think it is great to have goals. Syn says she wants this, that she knows she's not ready, and that she will work to get ready. In fact, there are worse motivations than desire to able to fulfill responsibility for someone getting themselves together.
I think adopting a kid right now would be a bad idea, but then, so does Syn. It's good to have something to work for.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
The only reason why I'm angry is, to me it seems like every time I try to improve, try to make things better for myself someone has to point out the obvious thing that I'm already aware of, or they have to bring up something stupid that I did in the past and instead of working on the present and being a stronger person I have to go back to being some depressed frustrated person and it's a major set back. It's enervating. Can't you realize I'm already at the stage of looking back on my childhood and the things from the past (Which is another reason why I'm angry, my relatives and their behaviour towards me over the years and stuff like that just reminds me of that, of how it seems that I can't really win.) have effected me and that it's time to be determined to change all of that? Plus, I can't spend the rest of my life going, "I had a miserable childhood." It wasn't that bad, but is there really a point to blaming my parents or my grandmother or relatives that were limited by their circumstances? I can't do much for them, they have lived their lives, they are adults now, but i sure can see the things that were wrong with how they raised me. I can be determined not to make those same mistakes. I'm not some robot that will just do things that have been done to me verbatim. I am a person that wants to live live with my eyes open. To be aware. To not get so caught up i the mundane things that I forget what really matters. So the next few years are devoted to burning away all the junk that doesn't matter and focusing on what does and that's doing the things I've been wanting to do since I was six. Maybe it doesn't make any sense, perhaps there is a pattern that has led me to want to do this and in the future, whether I give birth to them or adopt them, I will have children and I'm not going to raise them blindly. It may sound illogical and irrational to most of you, but I am working on myself every day... It doesn't seem like it, but I am, so I can't help getting angry at being forced back into that stupid teenager role when I was hoping to have left that behind me so I can move on to the next stage!
quote:Originally posted by stihl1:
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: I give up. You've already made my mind about me, anything i say will just confirm your belief in me. But, I have to admit, things have gotten better for me over the years. Now to work on making things even better.
No, I've formed an opinion about you. I think you need to work on yourself first. Your posts, the things you write, just reinforce that opinion. I see an angry young woman that has a lot of issues that directly trace back to your problems in childhood.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
quote: I am a person that wants to live live with my eyes open. To be aware. To not get so caught up i the mundane things that I forget what really matters. So the next few years are devoted to burning away all the junk that doesn't matter and focusing on what does and that's doing the things I've been wanting to do since I was six.
AJ
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I think it is great to have goals. Syn says she wants this, that she knows she's not ready, and that she will work to get ready. In fact, there are worse motivations than desire to able to fulfill responsibility for someone getting themselves together.
I think adopting a kid right now would be a bad idea, but then, so does Syn. It's good to have something to work for.
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
I sometimes think people like to point out flaws in other people's plans because it makes them feel better about having moved past that in their own lives.... that's why 80-year-old women always know EVERYTHING there is to know about how much TV kids should watch even though when they were raising their own kids, TV wasn't around. :-) It's not always bad, experience does lead to wisdom, but it's usually more useful when they don't shove it down your throat.
Just yesterday my uncle gave me a very LONG an informative lecture about the propper ways to bore out an engine of a cars built back in the 1950's, because obviously that is something everyone needs to know.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
and this darn rabbit chewed up my good vacuum's cord.![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Angst]](graemlins/angst.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Try not to get bent out of shape when somebody urges caution. Your smart, but there are folks who think good intentions and love will solve every problem. Mr S rubbed you the wrong way, don't let it get to you too much. Just assure skeptics that you are aware of their concerns, its really all you can do.
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
![[Kiss]](graemlins/kiss.gif)