Ok. So that you know, I follow a religion called Spiritism. It's largest following is here in Brazil, but even here, less than 2% of the population are Spiritists (although almost everybody know its existence and claims to know something about it). The thing is...this last weeks I've been coping with people who are very adamant in changing my Religious beliefs. I decided to create this topic because I'm so angry that I couldn't sleep well last night. So, I'd like to vent. Also, I know that Hatrack is full of smart people who can, maybe, offer some advice. As most of you probably know, Brazil is a mostly Catholic country. Having lived my whole life in cosmopolitan Rio de Janeiro, where you can easily find catholics, protestants, Jeovah Witnesses, spiritists, umbandistas (African rites), etc I never had big problems with religion acceptance (I was baptized a catholic, but changed my beliefs in late teens and never regretted it). Now I'm working in a small city called Itaperuna, where I'm a professor in a local University. Man...I never thought a community could be so deeply catholic as they are. See, I don't have a problem with that but, for many people there, it seems to be a big problem that I was raised as a Catholic, but chose later to abandon the Church. I don't know for sure how people actually discovered my religion (although I have my suspicions), but several groups of students and even other teachers are bothering me about it. I was mildly amused at first, but not anymore. It's borderline harassment already! This week, two guys and an old lady addressed me on my way to the hotel. They knew my name and said that I was in need of guidance, and that people who liked me very much as a teacher and as a person were very concerned with my spiritual well-being and wanted me to go back to the Church. They invited me to eat some pizza with them, nearby (although I was hungry, didn't accept) and offered me a Catholic Bible (as if I didn't have one) and some tracts. They were nice and well-mannered, but it just added to small cues and signs I've been getting and it was just...weird. But the cherry on the top was when a priest from Campos (a bigger city nearby) who comes to the University Chapel to oficiate twice a month asked to talk to me privately (because I am the newest teacher and he does not know me very well. He used to teach at the same University, years ago). What I could understand from the 10-minute chit-chat was like that: "Rio de Janeiro is very different from here, so I would keep a low profile about some of your private practices" - ok. He was more subtle than that. But I'm sure I only mentioned my religion two times, when someone asked me! To tell you the truth, the guy seemed to be talking to me only because someone bugged him a lot to do it. He almost excused himself for doing so.
I'm sure two meddling old female professors are behind all this, but I really don't know how to approach the situation. I enjoy my job, but this thing is becoming so...tiring each week... Does anyone have good ideas on the subject? Posted by airmanfour (Member # 6111) on :
Where I come from that is most definitely harassment. The way we're taught to operate is to discuss the situation once with the individuals involved and then take it up with a higher authority. Does your University have the academic equivalent of an Equal Opportunity representative?
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
I would also decline to respond to their commentary. Not answer questions. Not give additional information. Not even make any attempt whatsoever to justify. Not engage in any way. At most, smile or stare or say, "thank you. I'm not interested." Hopefully, they'll tire of your nonresponsiveness and move on to someone else more interesting.
Change the topic each and every time something is said. You could even have fun with that. I like the Lorelai Gilmore type of responses.
Good luck. Sounds like a pain. Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
That's good advice. I don't know why they can't let you do your own thing. I get that sometimes with my relatives. Or I would if I actually came out with my set of complicated beliefs they'd object to. Sorry you are going through that.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
They probably mean well, if I lived in a deeply religious community and I was not of their faith if they took pains to never bring it up when I was around for fear of offending me I'm not sure what I'd think, it wouldn't be good. I'd probably question the value of their religion.
But having said that I confess many Christians do not know when to shut up about their religion, or more accurately how to express it without actually speaking about it.
I sympathize with your plight I really do, going to a Lutheran private school growing up I cannot say that everyone tactfully explained to me why I needed their brand of Christianity. It was often something like the following exchange,
"You need Jesus to save your soul!"
"I believe Jesus is my savior."
"No you don't, Mormons believe in works and that Joseph Smith will save them, you're not really Christians."
"No really we believe Jesus is our savior and besides him there is no other, Joseph Smith is a prophet, but still a man."
"NO that is not what you believe, you believe....etc."
Sure is nice to not only be proselyted to, but to have your own religion dictated to you for you own benefit apparently.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: Sure is nice to not only be proselyted to, but to have your own religion dictated to you for you own benefit apparently.
Here's a harder question: what if the beliefs they "dictate" to you are your beliefs, but just ones they clearly dislike or disbelieve? Does that make their criticisms less offensive or more offensive? Less effective or more effective?
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
You don't know how much I empathize...
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote: Sure is nice to not only be proselyted to, but to have your own religion dictated to you for you own benefit apparently.
Here's a harder question: what if the beliefs they "dictate" to you are your beliefs, but just ones they clearly dislike or disbelieve? Does that make their criticisms less offensive or more offensive? Less effective or more effective?
Actually its a step in the right direction as I can at least respect their opinions more as they are founded on truth rather then error.
Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
Oh, I totally empathize. I get that from Catholics, and I am a Catholic; I swear if one more person tells me I'm not a real Catholic I'm going to--um--be even more cross than I already am.
Although, different view on the very loud proselytizing fundamentalists: I read an article recently about a gentleman who was a very popular and talented preacher (hellfire and damnation all the way), and then he had an epiphany that there was no hell, and he got way much less popular. And he said it was such a relief not having to witness to people anymore. He said that every time he got on an airplane he knew that he was responsible for saving his seatmate's soul; and it was exhausting because it was going to take all this effort and passionate rhetoric, and he would only succeed in pissing off his seatmate and getting labeled as a crazy.
Not terribly relevant here, but it gave me something to think about.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
--baleeted--
[ November 25, 2006, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
Uhn? Porter...where did your quote came from?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
OK, it appears that I've had cut-and-paste difficulties. Let's try it again:
quote:Ok. So that you know, I follow a religion called Spiritism.
Mesa branca ou mesa preta?
From the link you provided, it's obvious that it's mesa branca, but I just had to ask it, since when I was in Brazil every mesa branca spiritualist, after saying they were spiritualists, made sure that I knew that it was mesa branca and not mesa preta.
[ November 25, 2006, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Eduardo, I got this all the time as a Catholic growing up in the evangelist protestant southern U.S. Then when I converted to LDS, it got even stronger. One boss who was formerly a good friend told me the devil had gotten hold of me, and his former friendship turned to suspicion and dislike. Turns out he had heard an anti-mormon speaker at his church, and believed every word of that. The things he had been told were all twistings of our doctrine that presented every belief in the worst light possible.
It's very human for people to misrepresent the ideas of other faiths in their own minds. Here's what I try to do.
1. Realize that the person is probably thinking mistaken things about your faith, and that they are seriously concerned for you. Realize their motives may be kindness and love, despite their ignorance. Respond in kind.
2. Never ever get defensive, despite the feeling of being assaulted from all sides. =) Just cleave unto the feeling of openness and faith and warmth and neighborliness.
3. Come up with a one-sentence or one-phrase encapsulation of what it is you love most about your religion. For me it's "the constant companionship of a living God". When asked why I am Mormon, that's what I say. Then if questioned further, I go into more details.
4. Live your religion, do your very best to live up to its ideals, and be a good example of it. This is the hardest part for me. You do a great job of this, from what I know of you. You're a one man walking advertisement for Spiritism. =)
5. If they persist, and if it's someone you really can't avoid, I would say that religion is a deeply personal choice, and that everyone should follow the religion that resonates most with their innermost feelings. That I would never presume to tell someone else their religion was wrong for them, and I would hope for the same consideration from others. I would thank them for their concern, and then turn the subject to something else.
6. I would *not* take it up with higher-ups. They are as likely to see you as being the problem. It most likely won't help. It's much better to handle it on a personal level with friendship. Kill them with kindness, is my suggestion.
Mohammed the Prophet was accustomed to be heckled, screamed at, and spit at, by one mean and spiteful old woman from her house, as he walked past in going about his daily business. Day after day her anger never abated, until one day he walked past and she was not there. He grew concerned and went inside, only to find her deathly ill with nobody to care for her. She had no family or friends. He very tenderly took care of her during her illness, and when she returned to health her heart was changed. Perhaps when your Catholic ladies get to know you better as a friend, their hearts will also be changed. =)
[ November 25, 2006, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: Tatiana ]
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Tatiana! Hello!
I was just thinking of you yesterday.
---
By the way, excellent post. I really miss your voice.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Hi, CT! I miss you too!
Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
O...k...first: Spiritualist is not the same as Spiritist.
Second: what people call "mesa preta" are, in truth, African Rites called "Umbanda" and "Candomblé" or, still, "Macumba" (Witchcraft). Many people confuse Spiritism with the African Rites because both deal with incorporeal entities, but they're not the same.
Well don't you know? Christians don't particularly respect any religion other than the ours because it's against our religion to do so.
Look, there's a Jew! Let's kill it in the name of the Lord!
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Sorry for the confusion, Eduardo. I'm pretty familiar with both mesa branca and mesa preta. They were pretty hot topics for a while after a popular novella dealing with reincarnation. As far as spiritualist vs. spiritist goes, I'll take your word for it. The only term I'm familiar with ie espiritismo. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Alt, that's not exactly fair. Most of the Christians I know are respectful of other faiths.
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Alt, that's not exactly fair. Most of the Christians I know are respectful of other faiths.
Oh, you know I didn't mean that seriously. If I did, I doubt Raia and I would be good friends. Or anyone here, for that matter.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Oh, you know I didn't mean that seriously.
That's almost never a safe assumption.
edit: I'm not commenting on Tom. I'm commenting on the fact that without tone of voice, body language, and the like, it can be extremely difficult communicate nuances such as "I don't really mean what I'm saying."
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
I grew up Christian. Went to bible college for a year. Was going to be a pastor and everything. Now I'm an atheist.
So I've been on both sides of the "witnessing" shtick plenty of times. Here's the thing - I have no idea why this bothers people. I just can't understand why it bothers people to have someone of another religion question their own religion. I can't relate to the annoyance many people have over "prostelyzation."
The other day I was walking downtown and a pair of (exceedingly hot) LDS women stopped to do their thing. Even if they weren't hot, I just don't understand why that sort of thing might bother someone.
By the way, after my telling them that I've read the whole BOM (you should have seen the look of utter incredulity on their faces) they immediately asked when they could come to my home and speak with me again.
I said no, because, well, I'm a rake and I assumed it wouldn't actually have been those two women who came. They probably would have sent male missionaries to a man's house, right?
Or did I make a terrible mistake?
Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
Porter, I know the novela (soap-opera) you're talking about. It was called "A Viagem" (meaning something like "The Journey"). Yes. It was very popular, and there was a rerun, recently. (And Espiritismo = Spiritism)
Foust, I don't have a problem with casual proselitizers. I've always dealt with them in a calm and well-mannered way my whole life. What is happening there goes beyond casual proselitizing. I was singled-out for "salvation". The persistence of people doing it, even after I made clear to them my happiness with my current beliefs, is what makes it tiring.
Oh, yes. We, Spiritists, are Christians.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Porter, I know the novela (soap-opera) you're talking about. It was called "A Viagem" (meaning something like "The Journey"). Yes. It was very popular, and there was a rerun, recently.
Yup. That's the one. Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by Foust: Here's the thing - I have no idea why this bothers people. I just can't understand why it bothers people to have someone of another religion question their own religion. I can't relate to the annoyance many people have over "prostelyzation."
I've been musing over this a lot lately. Not so much my reaction to religious prostelyzation, but more generally speaking, why I react more negatively and more quickly to things than I did when I was younger.
I really do think it's because I'm not just reacting to the situation at hand, but rather to the history I carry with me of all other encounters like this (and thus what I expect to happen -- what I project as likely in this situation, based on history).
I don't think that's all good or bad. It is useful to have life experience for context, but it can get in the way of addressing new situations in a productive way. Then again, I wouldn't want to address every situation de novo -- that, too, has its limitations.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I get annoyed because it violates my personal space at times. I feel that if I express an interest in it then it is OK to preach your faith to me, but since I rarely do then it is forcing me to listen to s meaningless (to me) recitation of your own viewpoint on religion.
It is usually accompanied by all the reasons you think my own views on religion are wrong and/or ignorant, not that I asked what your opinion on my views were anyway.
I DO participate in conversations, both here and IRL, about religion, but only when I know that the people involved are fairly intelligent people who are actually interested in conversations about religion rather than people who are just looking for converts. Here I can always walk away if I get annoyed, and no one follows me around attempting to "convince" me I am wrong.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kwea: I get annoyed because it violates my personal space at times. I feel that if I express an interest in it then it is OK to preach your faith to me, but since I rarely do then it is forcing me to listen to s meaningless (to me) recitation of your own viewpoint on religion.
It is usually accompanied by all the reasons you think my own views on religion are wrong and/or ignorant, not that I asked what your opinion on my views were anyway.
I DO participate in conversations, both here and IRL, about religion, but only when I know that the people involved are fairly intelligent people who are actually interested in conversations about religion rather than people who are just looking for converts.
I kind of feel the same way as you. It's an invasion of space in general, especially because if I'm in my home, I'm probably not expecting a visitor, and if I'm out in public, I probably have something to do. I also get annoyed when people try to stop me in the mall to sell me those nail shining kits or hand lotion or whatever. It breaks whatever train of thought I had, and it really does feel like an intrusion. I'm clearly on my way to do something, not standing around looking for someone to talk to.
-pH
Posted by andi330 (Member # 8572) on :
I remember when I was waiting tables, people used to leave me tracts all the time. Despite the fact that I believed those people were well intentioned, I often found it offensive. Not because I "had" to read the tracts (more often than not I just threw them out), but because people assumed that since I waited tables, I needed a tract telling me how to become a Christian. They assumed that I wasn't Christian, because I was a waitress. I suppose that if those same people had given me a tract when I was cashiering at my other job, I would have been less offended. I probably would have just assumed they were tract tossers...only the only time those people ever handed me a tract (or left one) was at the restaurant. I never got one cashiering.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Maybe that's because it's eaiser to leave tracks for waiters/waitresses/bust boys because you don't have to look them in they eye when you're doing it.
Just a thought.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
One time when I was bagging someone gave me a Jack Chick tract! I think i still have it.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Yeah, I've avoided looking up the Jack Chick tracts until now... I always suspected they were the same ones my grandparents gave out. Unfortunately, I was right. My, not being a Christian in their eyes, frequently received a half dozen or more different ones in with the birthday cards, Christmas cards, letters, whenever I saw them... Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
Come on! Chick Tracts are fun! After all that's why they're written, isn't it? Hmm...isn't it? Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Um, yeah, okay. Whatever you say. *backs away slowly* *runs for the door*
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I don't really have much advice to offer, Eduardo, except to say that you are cool and the people harassing you can go honk on bobo.
I would also like to at Tatiana.
And wish for a pony.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
right back!
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Um, can I just say that I love this phrase:
quote:go honk on bobo.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: I don't really have much advice to offer, Eduardo, except to say that you are cool and the people harassing you can go honk on bobo.
I would also like to at Tatiana.
And wish for a pony.
*sends pink My Little Pony*
-pH
Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
Alright, I havn't read the thread at all. All I read was "Why can't people respect others' religious beliefs?" The reason: Because it is so easy to laugh at other people for believing in a false god, and knowing that you are saved, and they are damned to an eternity in a fiery pit.
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
Maybe reading the thread would have been a good idea.
Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
Oh, yes.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Uh huh. Yup.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Alright, I havn't read the thread at all. All I read was "Why can't people respect others' religious beliefs?" The reason: Because it is so easy to laugh at other people for believing in a false god, and knowing that you are saved, and they are damned to an eternity in a fiery pit.
See, that's what I keep telling them. They could be saved by the glory of Ahura Mazda if only they would open their hearts to the divinity of the true prophet Zoroaster.
Oh well, we'll ride the Fravarānē to heaven while the Angra Mainyu consumes the souls of the nonbelievers.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Tatiana! I'm so happy to see you!
Posted by TheGrimace (Member # 9178) on :
Sam, you get extra points in my book for bringing up Zoroastrianism it's my favoritest fringe religion ever (no disrespect to the religion, just referring to its small number of adherents)
As for the initial question, I don't have any particularly good advise to give other than what's already been said. In fact, a large part of why I'm not currently going to church (though I still consider myself to generally be Catholic) is because of my negative experiences with fellow parishioners who were overly/poorly preachy for my taste.
As for the question of why people are bothered by evangelism, it's pretty clear. Most evangelist encounters bother me for exactly the same reason that telemarketers bother me. They force themselves upon you, taking up your time trying to convinve you that your current existence isn't sufficient without X (being their religion, their product, their charity...)
That being said, thoughtful discussion of why I am Catholic and why they think X religion is the way to go is fine and good as long as I've invited the discussion. Heck, one of my good friends in Grade-Middle-school was Mormon, and every birthday his parents would give me a book of Mormon as a gift. While I didn't take great offense, I did find it quite tacky, but I enjoyed the discussions we would have on the bus regarding each other's religions.
If you can't see why the typical evangelism bugs people, I have to question your logic. If people stop me while I'm on my way about town, or make me get up to answer the door or telephone when I didn't want to do either I am going to be annoyed.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
I've run across 5 types of evangelist out in the world, all desparate to get me to change my views. Each kind needs a different stategy to get them to stop.
1) People protecting their own rep. These are pious-proud people who see your being a member of their family, circle, business, association, etc and not being of thier faith to be an insult to them. THese are usually petty people who may hold some position of power over you, your heart, or your future. Treat them gently, but hold your ground.
2) People looking to make a rep. These are people who are out to convert others just so that they look good, not in the eyes of God, but in the eyes of thier ministers, co-believers, other gung-ho recruiters. To them, faith is a numbers game. Best defense, nod your head approvingly, take lit, and point out others in need of conversion.
Do not antagonize. They may take it personally and become a #1 type.
Best argument to deflate them, "I wonder, are you doing this for me, or for you. Don't answer me. Just think about it."
3) The self-evangelizers. These are the most violent, most strident, most abusive of all. They are the ones who have doubts and questions themselves, but see those doubts as steps toward sin. To fight them, they must convince themselves, and they do that by convincing others. Their thoughts go, "If Eduardo can believe, then it must be true. When I convince Eduardo, I'll convince myself."
Best way to handle, run away. These people are nuts. Most will calm down after they leave their church. A few, however, become violently atheistic and will evangelize that worse than they evangelized their faith.
Best counter attack, "Who are you trying to convince, really, you are me?"
4)The drafted. These are people who have been told by others to go out and spread the word. They are the ones that leave tracts on tables for the waiters because they can then count their lunch as working for the church. They usually are working for the #1 types, and hate the #2 types who ridicule thier lacadasical attitude. They are easy to handle. Say thanks for your caring, take the hand out, and try not to throw it away until after they have left.
5)People of true faith. These are people who do care about you. They don't use pressure or tricks or word games. They don't threaten with damnation or with God's vengeance. They simply state what they believe, and that they really believe your life would be better if you accepted their faith.
There is little you can do about these people that would not be heartless. Attacking their faith would only silence them for a moment, and hurt them a bit.
Thank them for their concern, and possibly show just as deep a concern for thier souls unless they changed their faith.
Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Angst]](graemlins/angst.gif)
![[Wave]](graemlins/wave.gif)
at Tatiana. ![[Hail]](graemlins/hail.gif)
Dan.