My mom says she'll get me all the information I'ld need to apply for a loan but suddenly 2 weeks after I begun pestering my parents for the information about they say they're not going to sign for it. I cant live in this house much longer, my mom says "I'm not ready" my dad says its because I have a "behavior problem" ya riiiiight says the person with a temper.
I got a job, I'm tryoing to get into the reserves so I can support myelf I am even planning eveyrthing ahead but they're refusing the sign for it.
This is ridiculas.
<Edited topic --PJ>
[ November 20, 2006, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: Papa Janitor ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
It's their money and you're an adult. Any help you get from them is gravy, so not helping is NOT ridiculous. You are not entitled to putting them at risk.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
Is there anyone else you can get to sign it? I'm pretty sure it just has to be someone with good credit or something, so if you can find some adult who trusts you, and don't mind subverting your parents, you might still have a chance.
Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
What do you need the loan for? If it's for a place to live, Dude, reconsider what you are agreeing to pay. If it's school there may be other ways.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
its a school loan, the government can give me money this includes bursuries, as in free money i dont have to pay back and a loan specifically so that I can get a nw computer, 4k in loans and 3.6k in bursuries in total. Its not my parents money it would be MY money and only because they know i'll move out when I get it.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
It IS your parent's money, because if they sign for it and you are unable to pay the loan part back, they have to. So they have to decide if that's realistic for them before they sign.
Posted by jasonepowell (Member # 1600) on :
Dude, it's not YOUR money. It's BORROWED money. And if you don't pay, your parents would be responsible. How does that make it YOURS in any way?
This is part of being an adult - you have to make your own way. If you can't do it without help, perhaps you could choose another path? What sort of income are you going to be earning? Is it possible for you to save up for a while and then go to school?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I can't tell what he's asking them to sign. Blayne, can you please indicate whether you are asking them to co-sign a loan (as the title indicates) or to sign a financial information form to demonstrate eligibility for this program (as your opening post hints at)?
If the former, I don't blame them for not signing. If the latter, after you calm down a little, maybe some people here can suggest ways to approach them to get the needed signature.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
its the later and i have a job now, and im trying to get into the reserves as a second one.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
eating a cicken sandwhich so its hard to ype with one hand.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
OK, so they won't be responsible for your debt. This will be your starting point in convincing your mother to sign.
The first thing you need to do is talk to someone in the financial aid office and ask them what happens if your parents just refuse to sign. There must be some procedure for this situation. Find out what it is and see what steps you can take.
Then you need to think back to your parents' objections and how to answer them. Throwing back temper problems in their face won't help - you need to convince them on their terms. Above all, stay calm in front of them. Blow off steam here if you need to (within the TOS, of course), but do not address them on an emotional level here.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
ya I stayed within the realm of calmness then, I simply didnt reply whatsoever. I suspect its because my sister is home for the weekend os the reason, I had a huge fight/arguement/bad bad night on friday I told KoM a bit about it.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
Blayne, are you 18 or over yet?
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
19.
Posted by Mr.Funny (Member # 4467) on :
Hey, Blayne, I was wondering if you could edit your title. I don't have a huge problem with the language, even if it is acronymized, but I know that some people on the forum do. This is especially important because it's unavoidable - the title is right on the front page.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
If you are over 18, why would your parents have to sign any financial aid documents -- unless they are cosigning for a loan?
I just trained in this stuff last week. And AFAIK, Canadian law does not differ from US on this.
Even student loans should not require parental signatures.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
hmm, ill double check with financial aid on this it does sound fishy.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
In the US, if your parents claim you as a dependent, then you must include their financial information on applications for financial aid including student loans. Although I don't know the details of this case, parents are often required to sign a form verifying that the financial information given is valid. Its not an issue of age in the US, it is solely a question of financial independence. If a students parents claim them as a dependent for tax purposes, then financial aid requests are considered based on the parents income and not the child's. Some schools actually require documents proving that the parent did not provide any significant money or resources during the previous year.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
If it is part of a financial aid package, he might require their signature to demonstrate need, as with FAFSA in the US.
Posted by jasonepowell (Member # 1600) on :
When I went to school, the school loans required you to put down household income - so he'll need to know information about how much money his parents bring in, as well as social security numbers and that sort of thing.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Rabbit: even if parents don't claim a child as a dependent it is frequently required they report their status on the FAFSA, and also frequently required that their financial need be calculated with that status included.
Its quite hard for someone under 24 (I think that's the age), not married, not in grad school, without dependents, with living parents, not having served in the military to not have one's parents' income included in need calculations, even if they refuse to provide any money or other support.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by fugu13: If it is part of a financial aid package, he might require their signature to demonstrate need, as with FAFSA in the US.
*reviews notes* Oh, you're right. He's under [edit] 24, not married, not in the military, and has no kids.
Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
I was a bit annoyed when my husband filled out his financial aid paperwork because the school required parental information. My husband is married (obviously), a grad student, 28 and has 33/40 of a child. I doubt the info was actually used in the calculations, but since I prefer not to let my mother in law know that we are taking out loans, I was quite upset. Apparantly, I am too irresponsible to buy a house, a car, get a puppy or have a baby so giving her more ammunition against me is the last thing I wanted to do. Luckily, we didn't need an actual signature, so we managed to get into without telling her why.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
If he is married OR over 24 OR a grad student (let alone all three), then it was not for federal guideline reasons that they requested the info. However, the school may have its own guidelines.
(Babies in utero do not count as dependents. Not even one day before birth, let alone 7 weeks. Nice try, though! )
Posted by jasonepowell (Member # 1600) on :
Yes, you're right rivka, but the pregnant wife should count double!
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Maybe they just neglected to say "not required if married, over 24, or in the military" (which is what my husband's forms said.)
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
kq, quite possibly.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
If Blayne were to move out, then I think his parent's financials wouldn't have anything to do with financial aid. My sister-in-law went through something similar, but she was 17 which made things worse. Her mother just didn't want her to leave the house and go to college as my sister-in-law did all the child rearing of her siblings.
Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
It was the school forms that required the info. The FAFSA let us leave it blank. The school ones were online so when I tried to leave it blank, it came back with an error and wouldn't let me continue. It could have just been the programming.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Stephan, I believe that the only exception when 17 is if you are married, enlisted, or are an emancipated minor.
scholar, I bet it was an oversight in the programming-- they should have had a box to check that said, "I am married, over 24, etc." that would have let you skip that part. I hope you informed the school of your problem so they can fix it.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stephan: If Blayne were to move out, then I think his parent's financials wouldn't have anything to do with financial aid.
I don't know for sure if Canada is different than the US in this regard (although I'm pretty sure it's the same). But in the US, it does not matter if you are living at home, in a dorm, in an apartment, or on the street (well, that last one might get you somewhere ): if you are
under 24
not married
not supporting children or other dependents
not a veteran of the armed services
have two living parents
not a (former) ward of the state
you are NOT independent for the purposes of financial aid. In very, very, VERY rare cases, you may be able to convince the financial aid department of your school to override your dependency status. But that almost never happens, and involves lots of proof.
At my school Utah Valley State College I JUST applied and was granted a FAFSA (SO HAPPY) if you are under 24 then you must include financial information on your parents so the government can gauge their grant accordingly. You definitely get more money if you are 24 than if you are 23 with parents that have any money to spare.
Yet another reason why I love Senator Obama, and yes its purely for selfish purposes.
I assume you mean you qualified for a Pell grant (and/or state grants)? FAFSA is the application, and it is free to everyone. (Hence Free Application for Federal Student Aid.)
You're married, and from what you have said, your income is not high. I would've been absolutely shocked if you had not qualified.
And the cap on Pells is still $4050/year, despite the efforts of Obama and others.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
Boy, this brings back memories.
Blayne:
Did they promise to sign the loan and then go back on their word?
My mother had told me through all of my young life that "I would not have to worry about paying for college" or some equivalent. Then when I graduated from high school, applied and enrolled in college, I handed her the bill and she asked what is was for. I said it was the bill, and she said "so pay it."
Obviously I couldn't pay it, so I went to financial aid, and they gave me a bunch of paperwork and told me to fill it out. One of the requirements was that my mother provide her tax forms for proof of income. She refused. After several trips to the financial aid office asking how I could be declared independant of my mother, she finally relented and gave me the tax forms. In 1981 she had made $34,000 in interest and dividends. I took the form to financial aid, and showed it to them. They laughed and said "tell her to pay the bill."
She didn't. Guess how close I am with my mother these days?
Blayne: Tell your parents that at some point in the future, they will be old and feeble and will need their son to help take care of them. They may not believe it now, but they need you more than you need them.
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
My mom didn't sign the Parent Plus Loan so I took out the Creative Loan. She was my co-signer for my first academic year but afterwards, my credit was good enough to be on a stand alone basis.
You're parents shouldn't have to pay for your education. I think that maybe you need help, but by no means should you expect them to support you.
You're an adult, take responsibility.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: I assume you mean you qualified for a Pell grant (and/or state grants)? FAFSA is the application, and it is free to everyone. (Hence Free Application for Federal Student Aid.)
You're married, and from what you have said, your income is not high. I would've been absolutely shocked if you had not qualified.
And the cap on Pells is still $4050/year, despite the efforts of Obama and others.
Sorry you have about an 90% chance that I will go back on my posts an omit errors and correct spellings. That was a 10% post. Yes I know the bill did not pass, I thought it was too bad it didn't. But I am glad Obama pushed that agenda.
Incidentally, they scare the crap out of you when you complete the form as they have an "Estimated Amount of Aid" or something like that and since they will not give you aid until they get some confirmation from your school that you are being accurate that value was 0 for me. So here I am finished with the application and it says, "Estimated Amount of Aid = 0" and thinking, "well that's not good."
After about 5 minutes of fretting I just assumed they could not estimate anything until they verified my information, but even still I think its silly. Then again its the US govt we are talking about.
Still I can't complain about their generosity, the money has seriously helped Tiffany and myself alot.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Blayne: Tell your parents that at some point in the future, they will be old and feeble and will need their son to help take care of them. They may not believe it now, but they need you more than you need them.
Reminds of a time my mom was going to dicipline me and I said, "Just remember mom, I choose the nursing home."
I was amazed when my mom stopped dead in her tracks but within 5 seconds she diciplined me anyway. My sister nearby said, "Don't worry mom you can stay with me." Pff! that little suck up.
My mom still thought the comment was hilarious and told her friends I had said it.
I saw it in Calvin in Hobbes one day, it was still funny then.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Alt, why don't you qualify for a Stafford loan? You should, AFAIK.
I don't think Blayne is expecting his parents to support him. But as a dependent (as defined above), he needs their (well, one of 'em) signature on his financial aid application, as well as on any follow-up forms.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Incidentally, they scare the crap out of you when you complete the form as they have an "Estimated Amount of Aid" or something like that and since they will not give you aid until they get some confirmation from your school that you are being accurate that value was 0 for me. So here I am finished with the application and it says, "Estimated Amount of Aid = 0" and thinking, "well that's not good."
Actually, it says Expected Family Contribution -- that is, the amount YOU are required to pay. An EFC of 0 is as good as it gets!
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
My family and I had similar issues about the paperwork for me to apply for student aid. It was my family's policy that the children had no business knowing the financial details of the parents' lives.
So, after going round that bush a few times, I ended up working a compilation of various parttime jobs (at one time, there were six at once -- 4 little bitty ones, e.g., working in another church's nursery 2 hrs every Sunday for $15/week, and 2 large ones of 15-20hrs/week each) and surviving on scholarship money for the rest. It was a tough, tough time.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese: It was my family's policy that the children had no business knowing the financial details of the parents' lives.
No problem. Let the parents fill out the FAFSA (have the kid fill in their info first) and send it in.
(Actually, I know some parents who do precisely that.)
Yeesh. I don't expect to be in a position to help my kids out a lot with college expenses, but I can't imagine not helping them get whatever federal/state aid they might qualify for!
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Alt, why don't you qualify for a Stafford loan? You should, AFAIK.
I don't think Blayne is expecting his parents to support him. But as a dependent (as defined above), he needs their (well, one of 'em) signature on his financial aid application, as well as on any follow-up forms.
I did qualify for both Unsubsidized and Subsidized Staffords and I'm using both. The thing is that my tuition cost exceeds what both of these loans cover, so the Creative loan supplies whatever is needed after that.
Wait a minute, so Blaine's parent won't even supply their tax forms? Are they insane? How exactly is Blaine supposed to apply for financial aide then? I understand that if Blaine wouldn't keep his payments his parents would have to legally, but you mean they put their credit scores before their son's own future?
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese: It was my family's policy that the children had no business knowing the financial details of the parents' lives.
No problem. Let the parents fill out the FAFSA (have the kid fill in their info first) and send it in.
This is what my dad did. Not so much because he didn't want me to know, but because he wanted to do as much research on it as possible. In retrospect, I wish we'd filled it out together. I'm 21 and don't understand the basics of finance (well, other than credit cards = BAD!), and I think filling out the FAFSA would have been a good educational experience. It did pay off, though, since I'll graduate from college with no debt, and costing my parents very little every year.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: No problem. Let the parents fill out the FAFSA (have the kid fill in their info first) and send it in.
(Actually, I know some parents who do precisely that.)
Yep, that's how my parents did it. My father doesn't want me to know exactly how much he makes (although I have a vague enough idea). So when it came time to do the FAFSA, I filled out my stuff then handed it over to him. He filled out the rest and mailed it in. It all worked out.
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
My mom was my co-signer even when my tuition was like 80k and she makes less than 30k a year.
When my family found out that she had signed up for all that, they freaked because they couldn't understand why my mother would do such a thing. It was too much money to them. My mom told them that it was my future, and she had faith that I would succeed.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese: It was my family's policy that the children had no business knowing the financial details of the parents' lives.
No problem. Let the parents fill out the FAFSA (have the kid fill in their info first) and send it in.
(Actually, I know some parents who do precisely that.)
But -- and I say this delicately -- you did not know my mother. What one person may consider to be a sensible provision may not be seen so by another.
Good point, though. It might well work for some families. [as can be seen above]
Posted by TheGrimace (Member # 9178) on :
quote:Originally posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion: My mom didn't sign the Parent Plus Loan so I took out the Creative Loan. She was my co-signer for my first academic year but afterwards, my credit was good enough to be on a stand alone basis.
You're parents shouldn't have to pay for your education. I think that maybe you need help, but by no means should you expect them to support you.
You're an adult, take responsibility.
The problem with this stance is in the case of families where the parents refuse to contribute to their child's education, but have the money to do so.
Case in point: my best friend's family was well off enough that they would not have a problem paying for him to go to school, however, they wanted him to pay for school entirely on his own as a matter of his independance and teadching hardwork etc... however, he was not able to recieve federal aid because according to their estimation his family COULD pay if they so chose. I see this as unfortunate, but it is the way the system seems to work.
Now with Blayne's case it seems more that he can qualify, but just needs his parent's signature on the forms. That being the case it's quite bad form for them not to.
As others have said though, it's a whole different case if he's asking them to cosign a loan.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I hear you CT. I had to fight with my parents to stop claiming me as a dependent for tax purposes too, even though they *weren't* contributing the minimum amount to my upkeep to call me a dependent without some serious finagling. Grad school was a relief because then they stop asking about your parents finances.
AJ
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese: But -- and I say this delicately -- you did not know my mother. What one person may consider to be a sensible provision may not be seen so by another.
Oh, understood! But I think you would agree that she was not the average parent, or even the average unwilling-to-let-child-know-their-financial-status parent?
Unfortunately, my impression is that neither are Blayne's.
Blayne, have you tried discussing the situation with your financial aid counselor? Perhaps your parents might respond better to a call from her (or him), requesting their signature to ensure that the financial aid package not be lost? The semester will be over before all that long . . .
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
In Canada, to apply for student loans & bursaries, it used to be that until you were 21, you had to provide financial information on the parents. It may have changed, but likely it'll only be the age of the student that's changed, if anything.
Blayne, I know of other students who had problems with their parents similar to yours. They had other paperwork to fill out - and no, I'm sorry, I don't know what it's called or what the process is. It's not the emancipation of a minor since you're no longer a minor. Contact the student loan offices and ask for advice (politely, of course - the more polite you are, the more likely they'll help). You'll likely have to provide some sort of statement indicating why you're having problems having your parents fill out the paperwork.
If you need more help, then contact your MP, who may be able to push things through for you.
There IS a way through this.
Good luck. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Oh, good. Someone who knows how the Canadian system works!
Listen to quid, Blayne.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion: I did qualify for both Unsubsidized and Subsidized Staffords and I'm using both. The thing is that my tuition cost exceeds what both of these loans cover, so the Creative loan supplies whatever is needed after that.
Ouch. Expensive school! But it's an investment in your future, so that's a good thing. Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Oh, understood! But I think you would agree that she was not the average parent, or even the average unwilling-to-let-child-know-their-financial-status parent?
For sure. You do give good advice for the typical family, and this does not surprise me, since 1) you are you, and 2) you are trained in these matters.
So nice to have experts around.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese: 2) you are trained in these matters.
For almost a week now! Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion:
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Alt, why don't you qualify for a Stafford loan? You should, AFAIK.
I don't think Blayne is expecting his parents to support him. But as a dependent (as defined above), he needs their (well, one of 'em) signature on his financial aid application, as well as on any follow-up forms.
I did qualify for both Unsubsidized and Subsidized Staffords and I'm using both. The thing is that my tuition cost exceeds what both of these loans cover, so the Creative loan supplies whatever is needed after that.
Wait a minute, so Blaine's parent won't even supply their tax forms? Are they insane? How exactly is Blaine supposed to apply for financial aide then? I understand that if Blaine wouldn't keep his payments his parents would have to legally, but you mean they put their credit scores before their son's own future?
Aqaaaargh! Universe is gonna asplode! my name is spelt inccorrectly once again. *boom*
They say they're willing t give me the tax form info stuff but say they will not "sign for it" I'll talk to my financial advisor about it today.
Posted by airmanfour (Member # 6111) on :
Did you just comment on someone else's spelling? You know what? You're absolutely right. The Universe is gonna asplode!
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: They say they're willing t give me the tax form info stuff but say they will not "sign for it" I'll talk to my financial advisor about it today.
It's good that they're willing to give you the tax stuff. They may simply not understand that (or why) their signature is required. So yeah, talk to the counselor, and see what they recommend and/or if they can call your parents and request their signature.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Blackwolve,
The best book I've read about financial things is The Millionaire Next Door. Two economists interview hundreds of millionaires to figure out what they do differently from what others who make a lot of money but have low net worth do, and it's positively illuminating.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Really? It was a good book and all, but I thought it was pretty basic information.
The main thrust of it is "live below your means." Valuable info, surely, but hardly a shocking revelation.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
The idea that doing this slowly will make one a millionaire is a shocking revelation to many.
The time value of money and compound interest are not intuitive concpets to most people. I have a variety of spreadsheets I use to make the point to people. Many are actually shocked when they see the effect of a single financial decision echoed 30 years later.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Oh they know why their signaure is required, I'll divde the reasons as given by parent:
Mom: You are not ready to move out yet. // notes she doesnt believe I'm "respnsible enough" yet to bring the laptop I paid for to friends houses via bus.
Dad: Your disobediant (I dont obey stupid "orders"), you haven't given me you "log sheets" (BS) you dont go to bed when you should be(BS name a 19 yr old that still has a "bed time"), you play too many video games (I dont play as much as I used to but he ignores that), you dont study enough (he never sees when I study or ignores when I do study), made death threats to your sister and me (3 years ago and I actually didn't make them, one case was my fuming on Hatrack the other was I grabbed a shovel to keep him from attacking me).
The crux of he arguement is my percieved ability to handle responsibility, how can I learn to be responsible if I am not allowed to take risks?
My sister who was the route of the problems this weekend goes on how since I live here I must "listen" and follow their rules. I know longer wish to live under conditions that stifle my development as a human being, that denies me the minimum requirements for socializing with my friends on abusrd reasoning, where everyone is ready and willing to deny me a chance to do my work just to lecture me on ho I am not doing my work.
I am blamed as being the route of nearly all of the household problems, every fight, I never instigate any of them but they always come to me. My parents seem to object to my right to privacy.
I wont to seek out responsibility, I want to contribue back to the community and I want to finish my education my circumstances should dicate that I should have some leeway in how I spend my free time or my money when I make it, my dad objected to me buying a laptop for BS reasons, can you believe it?
Frankly unless there are changes to how I am treated in my mind they have every obligation to help me leave if I choose to do so, preventing me from doing so and mistreating me at home to me is no better then kidnapping.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
[edit -- to Dag] There's not a single member of my peer group (which includes a wide variety of savvy and not-so-savvy 20 and 30 somethings) that do not know that.
I guess that doesn't change the fact that it's still news to a great many people.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
also, this assuming my parents income is 30,000 a year is 4k in loans and 3.6k in bursuries. if less I can get alot more.
However 2k of the loan ill spend on a new computer (my desktop is dying, may MDG computer burn in hell if it exists) but the other 2k im not sure.
Whats the best way to invest 2k$?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
If you don't need the whole loan to live on, you should borrow a smaller amount.
If you will need it throughout the school year, you should put it in a money market account or savings account. Just make sure you can make frequent enough withdrawals to make use of it - some accounts restrict or penalize withdrawals.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
i was told i dont get all the money all at once, they make X00$ deposits a month although because students alrdy got theyre nov money ill get the last 4 months deposits already. And ild rather have more and spend less and have less and need more.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Katharina- The issue isn't so much how to handle money responsibly. I have a huge terror of debt, I would prefer not to have a mortgage, if I can avoid it. The issue is that if asked to fill out even my portion of the FAFSA, I wouldn't be able to do it. Even knowing how much my parents make, watching me struggle to fill out their portion would make a great sketch comedy act. I certainly have no idea how to fill out my tax forms. I have a very fuzzy idea of what a mortgage is, but even if I wanted one I wouldn't know how to get one.
What I'm trying to say is, I don't need to know how to handle money responsibly, I need to know how to handle money at all.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Don't spend $2k (even in Canadian dollars) on a new computer unless you're getting a laptop, and likely not even then. You can get a good computer for a thousand dollars Canadian, I'm sure.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
nonononononononono fugu.
Fugu my dear friend, gaming computers don't cost a thousand. Especially not gaming computers with an uber tsunami case.
I need a new LCD screen, new ram, new MOBO, new HD's, so I might as well buy a whole new computer from ym friends dad for OEM deals. (got a 600$ X850XT ATI card for 206$ 4 months back brand new).
Also, its 2,000 normal loan plus a 2k$ Computer loan, half of the 4k is meant for a new Computer and computer related asserories... for school.... yes...
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
It's a wonder, really, that your parents don't think you're responsible enough.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Are you implying that I'm irresponsible for wanting to get my moneys worth on a new computer? I wont even probly use up the whole 2000 according to my friend I'll have plenty left over.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
You can get a computer perfectly suitable for gaming for $1000 Canadian. It will not be able to play everything with all the settings turned up, but it will be able to play most things with all the settings turned up, and everything else with maybe a few of the settings turned down.
You're going to be paying this money back many times over due to the lengthy period of loan. Don't borrow a lot just to have the latest gadgets that you'd be able to get for half the price in a year or so anyways.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
yo man, these loans are interests free. also im getting a new moniter, y old LCD doesnt turn on anymore and its 2-3 years old. I turn it on, it goe son for less then a second and then dies each time.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Only until you graduate. Then the interest kicks in.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Actually, with such a small loan even with small payments you probably won't be too awfully out on the multiplier.
Spending lots of money is not getting your money's worth, spending lots of money is spending lots of money.
In your case, spending $1000 more now is having, say, $1500 less in the future.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
It's still not worth it. You don't want to be in oodles of debt when you get out of college. Get a sensible computer, not an expensive one. It's going to be out of date in two years anyway, and then all the money you spent now will be even less worth it in hindsight.
It's like buying a used car rather than a new one. Buying a new one (in most cases) is stupid because you are paying a premium for a new car smell. You don't need to pay the top-of the line computer premium, when one just below that will be about half the price. Trust me, I've made both mistakes (the computer, and the car)
AJ
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I was including a new monitor in the $1000, there are some very nice cheap LCDs out there nowadays, even for gaming purposes.
Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
Put me in your sister's camp. Your Parents' house, your parents' rules.
I moved back home for a semester after some "life experience" as I was trying to get back on my feet.
The curfew pissed me off, a suggested bedtime seemed outrageous to me, and I wanted no part of it. So i worked my butt off and moved. I was twenty years old. I didn't like it, but I couldn't disagree with them because it was their house, and while I was there I understood it was their rules, regardless of my age.
I understand you don't WANT to live there and are trying to do something about it, but regardless of the fact that you feel they are the ones slowing you down, until you are actually out of there you gotta respect their home, dude. I know it sucks but if you want their help, respecting their house rules is certainly gonna help your situation more than harm it (At least regarding curfews and what not), I promise.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Dude, for Pdox games you don't need the latest hardware. Surely you're not one of those heretics that thinks games by other companies can be worth playing? But do make sure your graphics card has pixelshader 2.0, EU3 is going to need it.
Jokes aside, quite frankly I see your parents' point: You say you need a new computer, fine, for college you actually do need a computer, with you so far. And then you blow it all by saying you need a 2000-dollar gaming monster! Is this responsibility?
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Ben, my sister makes it a point to try to get me into as many arguements as possible, even going as far as to try to convince my parents whenever she is over that I am doing everything wrong and immediate disciplinary action is needed.
I get some from working one day, shes there, I go to my room I start doing some homework, I get called upstairs to do the dishes, I am also told to eat cabbage, fine. But I need to be on my computer for 10 so I get to doing my chore, my dad goes once more for the 4th time that day to give another rant about how I shouldn't be allowed to have the pizza I worked hard to earn (I work in little casears), about how everything I do is wrong, how I am not doing enough, etc etc.
I tune it out so I can work and get the chore down so I can get back to my room my sister gets in my way and prevents me from working, I tr to get around she moves to prevent me from getting to the sink.
Why? To get me to sit down to "listen" but I am not wasting my time listening to the 4th lecture this day on BS so i refuse so she keeps me from working on my chore.
Then they both starts lecturing me on how I'm a failure, about how I'm a horrible person, about how I'm not studying enough, about how I'm going to die when I'm 30 if I dont lose weight (I'm only 208 pounds and 5'11")
I say that if theyre not going to let me do my chores then I'll go back to my room, my dad threatens to cut the ethernet cables to my room if I do.
This goes on for 15 minutes, I give up go to the barn fuming and ask my mom to get them to stop verbally abusing me. She says she cant, she says to stay up here until "I" calm down and then go back.
Why doesnt she get I'll just be abused again when I go back down?
Eventually I do go down tobring her some of my pizza only to find out most of it had been eaten!
They ate my pizza! I work for it, only to lose it!
I eat one slice since I'll probly not get any at this rate, my dad comes up and yells at me for eating pizza "when I wasn't allowed to".
I go back downstairs, I refuse to take more of this argueing so i head to my room, my dad and sister say to finish my choor, its now 10PM and my CK game with KoM is soon so I say no, if you wanted me to do the chore you could've let me do it in peace and quiet and let me do my job.
My dad heads down stairs to remove my router (regardless of whether my brother is also using it in my moms office) and we have a Mexican stand off, I follow and refuse to let him touch the internet. He says he paid for it so I say I'll pay for it then, he of course refuses.
My sister says for me to go upstairs, I say no I have things to do with my friends now and i cant be delayed any further, then my brother comes down and tells me to go upstairs as well, I say no I am not letting my dad touch the router, cuz I know he will and I tell them that I am not moving until mom comes down from her workshop.
I tell my dad he is in the wrong here for verbally insulting me (he also called me fat earlier), that mom agrees with my and that I am not leaving my spot until she comes down, and each time I tell him I do not have the time because of my sister's interfearence and his lecturing to do the chore which would have been done by now had I been left alone. My dad's rely? That I shouldn't have run upstairs to my mom and hid behind her skirts! The Chauvenist! He uses that retort alot when we try to use mom to defend us from his irrationalities.
My sister pulls the sweet innocent "we're here to help you line" I know its just a ploy to get me upstairs, and that she doesnt want a fight to break out (when shes starting it), BS.
Eventually I'm in a yelling match wiht my brother, and then my brother attacks me (as he does when we're in an agrement and I dont agree with him) I push him a way and he attacks harder and digs his nails in I grab at his hair to get him off and we end up on the gorund my glasses flying again. Before in the room when my dad tried to dismantle the router among al the yelling she attacks me and I push her a way, I get punched by someone and my glasses went flying the first time around. It got hazy but I know that my lips were swollen and my glasses were missing.
Then my mom comes down and I go back to my room, bruised, glasses were missing but I thought I won.
My dad and sister yell at my mom about how I'm the cause of all the fights in the house, how I somehow started it, about how I need to be displined. My dad yells at my mom how she keeps "undemrinning his authority" his own words and that I need to learn how to obey.
My mom comes down and says I am at fault for my behavior based on what my brother says and that I need to get off the computer and go to bed. Excuse me? She asks where my glasses are, I tell her I don't know they're missing.
Heh, apparnetly they neglected to mention that my glasses went flying in the tumble. 10 minutes of yelling later I'm forced off the computer and I miss my gaming session with KoM. Weekend ruined, evening ruined, I get attacked and all the problems in my family are my fault somehow.
This is what I need to get away from and they're preventing me, well unless they'res a serious change in atitude I think its time for me to leave ASAP, they cant keep me here and expect me to take being insulted and disrespected on a regular basis, something has to give.
Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
I agree you need to leave, but until that happens they do have SOME rules and expectations of you. They may be unreasonable, they may not, that is not for me to determine, but my initial stance still stands.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Well. Bearing in mind that we're only getting Blayne's side of it, it does seem to me that you cannot comply with rules set by people who then try to interfere with your compliance. That's the point at which un-reasonability becomes a good reason, in my mind, to start ignoring people. Respect, after all, is a line that travels two ways. Or, as in this case, it doesn't travel at all.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
And, by the way, although people are probably going to jump all over me again, the next time your brother starts a fight with you, take a leaf from Ender and finish that fight. Don't stop; bite, stomp and kick until he does not want to fight you anymore. (Biting, incidentally, is really nasty; per unit weight, the jaw is the strongest muscle in the body, and the teeth are the hardest part. Try not to go for the throat with this; but ears and hands are fair game.) This will, it's true, get you in trouble; I am of the opinion that such trouble is less troublesome than having people think they are free to hit you. It is not possible to establish a reasonable dialogue with people who resort to force; your first care, in such a situation, must be to establish boundaries that will be respected, and unfortunately, it a real fight which you win decisively is the only way to do that.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Sure, because beating someone to a bloody pulp would really make things better.
You do know that was a fiction story, right? One without consequences for assult and battery?
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Somebody is already getting beaten, apparently on a reasonably regular basis; to wit, Blayne. Yes, I do actually think that one serious beating is better than semi-regular fighting. Blayne is not the aggressor here, at least not physically; he has a right to stop people attacking him.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
And, as I already pointed out, I think legal consequences are less of a problem than ongoing violence, especially since Blayne could plead self-defense and provocation over a long period. Still, this is a choice he needs to make for himself.
By the way, Blayne, if you're going to be passive-aggressive and just ignore people, do so all the way. If your sister gets in your way, don't ask her to do anything; just stand there and stare at her, saying nothing. In such a strategy, any time you say something, they've won a victory: They made you respond to their actions. Don't argue; we've already established experimentally that they won't listen. Don't complain; it lets them know that they have reached you. Cultivate an exterior that shows no reaction at all, even if you are bleeding inside; if you need to cry, go elsewhere where they will not see. If you have a door you can lock, do so; if you have a friend you can crash with, do so; if all else fails, spend an hour, or a night, in the woods. Do not show a reaction if you are denied CK or Vicky; this is a lever for them to reach you. We will hold your place for you in CK; and as for Vicky, you are the host and we can at a pinch wait a week or two - there are some interesting sociological things going on with the Ynglings, anyway, that I could use some time to write down.
This is not easy, and it may have long-lasting consequences you do not want; I do not necessarily recommend it. I'm just saying that if you are going to do this thing, don't do it halfway; that gets you the worst of both worlds.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
My sister has threatened during that fight to call the police on "me" and through me out of the house unless I listened, I said "do it" and she didnt. But on a really regular basis whenever I'm about to resort to violence to defend myself I am the one who is threatened with the police, I supoosedly wrote a death threat about my sister on Hatrack, something which I promptly deleted but it wasnt a threat at all, I simply wrote that I "felt like" doing some particular actions at the time for her abuse and her manipulation of my family against me 3 years ago, certaintly there is statutes of limitations on this even if it was that serious and frankly it shouldnt be brought up in EVERY arguement thereafter.
Thank you noentheless KoM for your words, they mean alot to me, and whilst I wouldn't go that far to beat him to a pulp since we do get along alot better now then 4 years ago -ish.
This is the Get along fine to Fighting Ratio.
Father: 2 /3 Mother 9/1 brother 5/1 Sister 4 / 1
Things were different during High School, then I was regularily insulted an abused at school and my family would generally stand up for me with the exception of my younger brother. But my school upon entering college declined and changing circumstances such as my sister moving ou and my adirans obviosuly near genius school performance has made my actions/performance far far worse relatively speaking in comparison although if you compared me to students elsewhere I believe statistics would say I am far above the norm.
So far, Ive found a fellow Compsci student whose planning on moving out, we're planning things out now and I'll be hanging out with him to get to know him better. I'll also see his place, its 2 buses away from Abbott but i'ld be getting a 5 1/2 almsot to my self alot of the time.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
"Adirans"? Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
I'm certain others won't agree with me on this, but the signature on the forms is a formality. It doesn't need to be notarized, it's just there to provide a safety check that the information is correct. My parents don't like filling stuff like that out and they always just send me PDFs of their tax forms and have me fill it out and sign for them. It would be much better if you could get your parents to sign it, but if worse comes to worse be very careful when filling out the information and then just sign your own name in your parent's spot. I sincerely doubt anybody dealing with the financial aid stuff would care or notice.
And as for spending $2,000 on a computer, I think you don't have a clue how much it truly costs to live on your own. Rent, utilities, transportation, food, clothing, entertainment add up very quickly. The school does not just throw money at you, they expect that you will need that money (and probably more) to live. Do you want to end up having to ask your parents for more money, or worse moving back home? Because if you spend $2,000 on a computer you're pretty much guaranteeing that will happen.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Adrian* lil' brother.
And no I wont spend a full 2000 on a computer, my friend is getting me really good deals so it will be far less with plenty to spare, but your not realizing that the computer loan is that, a COMPUTER LOAN only meant to get a new computer and/or computer related assesories.
And yes I do ealize how muh it costs, im going over it with a friend and he esitmates 800-900$ a month based on the current apartment. I can make 500 a month, a difference of 400$ but I'm getting a second job soon with the reserves.
I intend only to move out for the next school semester so I'll have some more money saved up from my current work, I can also probly save money on food by going to Costco/club price.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amanecer: I sincerely doubt anybody dealing with the financial aid stuff would care or notice.
Considering that it is fraud, you would be wrong. It's certainly something I was taught to look for.
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
Blayne,
Can't help much on the family problems, but if you have your heart set on a computer, the following system is a core 2 duo system that can be overclocked to over 3 Ghz for under $1000. Overclocked to this level (all with stock cooling), the CPU can beat the AMD FX chips in benchmarks. Add a soundcard for a few bucks in the onboard 7.1 surround isn't good enough. If you want RAID, get two $50 HDs, etc. I think you mentioned you don't need a video card because you have one, so take that off. You can give and take on some of the components and still stay at around the $1000 range. Fugu knows what he's talking about. There's kind of a price break at around $1000. Paying $2000 for a system isn't really going to buy you a lot of noticeable performance. The following system will be more than sufficient for quite some time.
1 Rosewill R5717-P SL 120mm Fan ATX Mid Tower Computer Case $24.99
1 NEC Black 1.44MB 3.5" Internal Floppy Drive $6.25
1 Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 (Perpendicular Recording) ST3250620AS 250GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - $74.99
1 Microsoft S82-00032 Black USB + PS/2 Wired Standard Keyboard Mouse Included - OEM $26.99
1 LITE-ON 18X DVD±R Burner Black IDE Model LH-18A1P-186 - Retail $33.99
1 Samsung 19in Widescreen LCD monitor 920BW 4 ms Refresh Rate $129.99 after rebate.
Total: $976.17
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Hey, cool - thanks, BQT. I've been trying to put together a part list for a system. This helps a lot.
I'll double the memory and upgrade the graphics card one level, but I don't need the case, keyboard, DVD burner, monitor, or floppy. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Keep in mind that Blayne is talking about Canadian, not American, dollars.
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
No problem Dag.
I wish I had an old system to take parts from. My wife still uses the other computer though.
Rivka-
Thanks, I made a mental note during the post not to forget the conversion, then I did
I guess it'd be about $1100 CAD, but not all components cost the same. It's not always strict dollar to dollar conversion-that'd be too easy.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
976.17 U.S. dollars = 1 118.10512 Canadian dollars
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
But the costs of tech equipment in Canada are higher than here, even taking the conversion into account. And if you order from here and have them shipped, if it's over a certain amount you have to pay import taxes.
It would undoubtedly still be a good system for considerably under $2000, but it would probably end up being more than $1200 Canadian.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Blayne, if you did what they said, would they do what you want? Sometimes we have to live by rules we don't like. You want to be in the military, no? Learning to live with unreasonable (in perception or reality) rules is sometimes part of life.
Now, if you've lived by their rules, without complaint, and they still refuse to do what you want, you'd have a problem, I agree. But is it the tiniest bit possible that if you do what Ben suggests, they might actually give you some respect?
I have this conversation over and over with my brother. He has never seen the value of just doing what he is told to prove that he can to authority figures so he can get more privileges. I don't mean to lecture, but sometimes people just need to know that you CAN follow rules. I hope you can at least consider that solution.
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
ElJay,
Yeah, you're right. I tried to allude to that, but I obviously wasn't very clear. Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
I caught the allusion, but since Dag posted the straight conversion I figured it wouldn't hurt to clarify. Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
quote: I need a new LCD screen, new ram, new MOBO, new HD's, so I might as well buy a whole new computer from ym friends dad for OEM deals. (got a 600$ X850XT ATI card for 206$ 4 months back brand new).
Anytime you take a load out it should be for a need. I am really curious how you define need Blane.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Coming in under $1000 Canadian shouldn't be a problem, even, since you have the video card and likely a few other parts (some/all of the RAM? DVD drive?) already.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I still dont really know how much my friend is selling me the parts for but he assures me it is considerably under 2000$ on OEM deals and no cost on labour, just buy the parts and we build it. And frankly my wish to get a new computer was never listed as a reason for irresponsibility, and even if it were it would be ridiculas, my dad already tried to veto my getting a laptop a few months back, I spent 800$ of my hard earned money on a laptop and for 1-2 weeks prior he had been ranting on how I didnt deserve it, how I would only play games on it, that for me it would only be a toy, that I would lose it, break it, etc that I refuse to make any "agreements" etc.
My mom still drove me to futuresho to get it, but the thing is my dad even went as far as to tell my mom not to drive me to get it, while I do have games on my laptop I havent played any of them in over a week, my laptop is 90% school 10% fun. My desktop will be 90% fun 10% work although I do not doubtt hat having new fast ram and such and such will come in handy.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I do 70-90% of the time live by theyre rules, only because 70-90% of the rules have been reasonable, however every so often something or a series of somehings happen that leads to some pscological need in my father to "crackdown" on whatever behavior he happens to not like at the time and 9/10 times my brother ALSO does but ignores, when I call him on it his excuse is exactly: "Because it is alot easier to deal with you then it is with him."
He doesnt bother dealing ANYTHING with my brother, and easier? wtf!? All h does to make me do soemthing is threaten to cut the wires to the internet or withhold rides, I fail to see how I am less/harder to deal with based on his weapon of choice to force compliance out of me.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:my dad already tried to veto my getting a laptop a few months back, I spent 800$ of my hard earned money on a laptop
Blayne, think about this for a second. Having bought a laptop just recently, why do you feel you can justify spending $2000 you do not have and have not earned on a desktop for "fun?"
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
How does my dad justify me not getting a laptop for school? Its all from the same tree, and my old desktop is dying anyways which costed around 2300$ anyways so I'm getting a machine thats 3 times better for far far less.
And its not 2000$ I get 2k but I am not spending 2k, I am spending far less.
Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
I think Tom's point was, why do you NEED two computers? I know you want one, but why is two computers necessary?
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I will be cannibalizing my own desktop of its videocard, dvd bruner and Harddrive so I really wont be having 2 computers.
Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
You have a Laptop. That is One Computer.
Now you also want a Desktop. That is computer #2.
Hell, you have your old Desktop now. You already HAVE 2 computers.
Why is having anything other than the laptop a need? I get you want it, but you have a computer to do all the work you need done on it (your laptop) and it sounds like you are somewhat successful gaming on it. I would consider not getting a new desktop right now and living with just the laptop. After you are out on your own and have some savings in the bank I would buy your new desktop with that, but in the meantime live with your new laptop.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Because I am a gamer, my laptop doesnt play games very well I have school, and a job, and soon the reserves with my spare time when I am not studying or working I want to play games asking a gamer why he needs a desktop is not a particularily good question, a laptop is only good for so much, but it only has an onboard video card its not gonna lay the next gen of games, its not even gonna play most of the games I currently play (exmaple BF2 or most flight sims), the loans are interest free for as long as I am a student and ONE summer in the army makes me 6000 dollars, I think its fine.
Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
I understand gamers need a robust machine to play the latest and greatest with the graphics pushed to the maximum, but dude, everything you have talked about here for the past two weeks points to you can't afford it!
Hell, I have been holding off for over a year to get a new graphics card, and I don't see it happening for many months yet because I cannot afford it. The games I've played lately I have had to push settings down to medium or sometimes even low. I do understand the demands.
Until you can afford a new machine with your own savings deal with what you currently are using. You obviously are able to play BF2 and the flight sims, you just said so, so you can live for a few months.
If you had no functional computer at all I could see maybe taking out a loan or credit card to buy one. But if you have a computer already, a New one, you don't need to be taking out a loan for another one.
(edit: I have no idea why I am getting worked up about this)
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Not really my moniter just died and my CRT is getting iffy as well, getting my video originally fried the power supply, which had to be replaced the RAM is 266mhz 1GB, there's always a risk of the hard drive dying and since it is MDG and they as it turns out ripped me off on nearly all the parts I suspect other things iwll be going down the tubes soon.
Man, Ben I'll soon be working TWO jobs it will perfectly be within the realm of affordability in good time, working the entirety of this summer alone will be able to pay off my loans and then some and I can get far more bursuries if my parents income is closer to 16,000 then 30,000 as my mom is currently implying.
She's currently caving in, its only a matter of time no one can resist these puppy dog eyes.
:edit:
My computer in theory can play my games but in practice (my destop that is) it always crashes, the cpu goes into an infinit loop on a regular basis and my MOBO was nearly fired when the power supply blew I am not nearly spending 2000$ on a computer.
Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
And that's great dude, but until you HAVE those two jobs and have the $1000 in cash (not borrowed) to spend on the computer, it's a bad idea to get one. Your laptop can work in the meantime. Working two jobs and going to school will yield less game time than you think anyhow.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Seriously, going into debt to support a hobby is not a good idea. You have a computer that suffices for school. Don't burden yourself with debt to play games.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Man, Ben I'll soon be working TWO jobs it will perfectly be within the realm of affordability in good time...
Then you wait until it's affordable, and THEN buy.
Honestly, this is a life skill that I think they should teach people in elementary school: if you're counting on future income to buy something you want (and do not need), wait to buy it until you've actually earned that income.
----------
Let me actually suggest something else: try NOT gaming for the first three months you spend in your new apartment. Do something else with your time.
You're going to be working, going to school, and possibly looking for a second job. Given the marathon gaming sessions you enjoy, that's not going to leave you enough time for sleep -- so something's got to give, and I strongly suggest that you try going cold turkey from gaming for a little bit to see if you can live on the alternatives.
Let me point out that the alternatives -- going out for coffee with friends, board game nights, bar hopping, pickup sports, etc. -- are probably healthier and more fun, anyway, and you might find that you prefer them to computer gaming once you try them. You might NOT, for that matter, but it's worth a shot (and there will never be a better time to get your feet wet in the real world than your first move into a new place).
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
But I really really really really really want it. Like this is a computer loan, meant for college students who need money to get a new computer, it is interest free for as long as I am a student which is probly for another 1-2 years, and even if I dont manage to pay off all of them when I get out of school then I'll have a full time job making probly a minimum of 47,000 a year Worse Case Scenario I go full time into the reserves in my clerk profession.
I'll be sure to research everything, check all the financial stuff and make sure it is within affordable limits, going for the "minimum" is never a good idea in a desktop generally its better to go for osmething better then yuo need so that when newer games comes out you can play them decently.
I do have at least ONE job and the army says I'll probly be enrolled within a week, courses will begin soon after.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:But I really really really really really want it.
Oh, grow up. I really really really really really really want a new house. And a car with a backseat big enough to comfortably accomodate the two carseats we're going to need shortly. And a TV that isn't 34" thick and isn't slightly fuzzy at its maximum resolution. But I can't buy these things right now, as much as I want them, because to do so would require that I take out additional loans to cover those purchases and I don't want to expose myself and my family to the additional risk -- even though I'm fairly confident that we could afford it.
Blayne, there is NO good reason for you to do this, except possibly to learn the hard way that money you expect to be earning someday is not the same as money you actually have. And it's better to learn that lesson the easy way, believe me.
Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
I think Tom has a great idea with the cold turkey.
Assuming you cannot do that however, I stand by my PLAY games on your laptop no matter the limitations, deal with it.
A Want is different than a Need. Purchasing the desktop now could be the most irresponsible thing you could do and it certainly won't improve your relations with your family and how they view you. If you wait until, like I said earlier, have $1000 cash from your job to spend on a computer in your pocket, then they cannot say boo about how responsible you are.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Blayne, I'm trying to think of a way to convey to you the immense freedom lack of debt provides and the restriction even moderate debt creates. Many of us learned this by struggling through it.
Think about this. Suppose you pay off the debt just as you graduate. Now, your computer is almost out of date (especially as a gaming machine), right? You need a new computer. Your choice is to wait and save or go into debt to upgrade.
Whereas, if you are correct about how fast you can earn the money, you can wait now, not have the loan if you happen to be wrong, and be saving up for the next computer for most of the time you remain in school.
And, if your interests change, you will be able to use the income that would go toward computer debt for your new interest.
This is the start of your financial life. Establish a pattern that allows you to keep and use the money you earn, not pay for something you've already done. Once you get over the initial hump of saving up, you won't notice the difference. But you will have greater freedom, greater control, and greater security.
Saving is paying yourself. Debt is paying someone else.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Let me also point out that the cash you hope to be getting from additional "bursuries" is really other people's money. It's money that's been taken from them by the government or generously donated to your school to make it possible for people who cannot afford an education to obtain one. It is not stolen from taxpayers so that the people of Canada can help you buy a gaming rig.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
CD$47,000 is US$41,000. I do not know anyone who made that much their first year out of undergraduate who did not also have prior work experience in their field. Also, many, many people don't find a job in their field right away after graduating. Just know that your expectations might be unrealistic.
I really really really really really want a bathroom with a shower, or at least a bathtub you can stand up in. I'll probably be able to afford the remodeling this spring, when I get my tax return and hopefully a bonus. I could easily take out a pretty low interest home improvement loan and do it now. And home improvement loans are meant for home owners who need money to make home improvements! And I'll have the money in six months, tops.
You know, unless my company doesn't pay out bonuses this year. Or my car breaks down and I need to spend my savings fixing it, and use the bonus to replenish my savings. Or I lose my job, or get sick, or any number of other things.
It's just better not to take out loans unless you absolutely need to. And really really want doesn't equal need. When you have the money in hand, buy the computer. In the meantime, make do with what you've got.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I am not spending bursuries on a new computer bursuries ill be spending on moving out, the loan is what I'll be getting a new computer with, now I've had my current computer for about 3 years now, had it not been by MDG and had my parents listened to me when they got it for me and have had it built by my friend I would not be having this conversation, working as a clerk full time in the reserves makes 47,000.
Dagonee's advice so far is the most compelling and I'll keep it under advisement when I apply for the initial student loans/busuries for the moving out thing. Th Computer loan is something I am automatically eligible for when I'm accepted for a standard financial aid.
Based on my parents income I am eligible for X amount of money for my education where it comes from is irrelevent. Its 2,000 in stanrd loan and 3.6k in bursuries which i intend to use to allow me to move out and sustain myself with 2 jobs, the additional 2k I can probly take at any time.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
ElJay, many people are making more than that just out of undergraduate with only an internship or less under their belts. In my field (and Blayne's) the average starting salary is over that, and its not very unusual for people to make considerably more.
My sister just got hired with a BA in Math (she's graduating in December) by a tech company (despite little formal technical training and not much experience; they do their own training and hire people to think) for $55k with all moving expenses paid.
If one is willing to travel a lot, one can get paid a lot more very quickly, too -- all the major tech consulting companies have minimum starting pay around $50k, substantial bonuses, and fast raises (plus a lot of burnout).
That reminds me, my sister and her husband will be moving to Madison soon (March), so I'll have a good excuse to visit all the hatrackers around there .
Starting salaries have gone up considerably, in part due to inflation. In many fields they're still around the $30-35k mark, but in many fields they're breaking $40-45k routinely.
However, Blayne, you can't count on that (edit: even in re the reserves. After all, lots of people in the reserves aren't clerks). You might end up in a job paying worse. Furthermore, you don't know what your circumstances will be surrounding that job. You'll be a lot happier if you can take your paychecks and spend them as you need and want then instead of having to earmark large sums for loan payments.
I'll be graduating with a large amount of debt. Then I'll be putting off paying a lot of it while I get a PhD (though in the nine months before starting that program a substantial part of the money I earn will go to paying down the loans). Almost all of my debt has been for tuition and living expenses. Be glad you have an opportunity to have a lot less debt, and take advantage of it. Debt is a tool to be used judiciously, not an opportunity to get the latest toys you want.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Almost 9 years ago we built a house with a two-story greatroom and put the cable on an 18 foot tall wall. We owned a tiny, rickety entertainment center that fit in our old house and a 27 inch television. Our intention was to buy a new entertainment center with bookshelves that was tall and would take up a lot of wallspace, as well as a new tv. We couldn't afford it at the time, though so we just moved in the old stuff and said we'd wait.
In the following years tv moved toward hD. We decided to wait until we could afford an HD tv, and that obviously changed what type of entertainment center we'd buy.
We just last week had our new entertainment center and tv purchased and installed. We paid cash for both.
Let me tell you, I enjoyed watching the Duke basketball game last night on my HDTV and new entertainment center but I wouldn't have enjoyed it nearly as much if I'd still owed thousands of dollars on the combination. I waited just one month shy of 9 years, Blayne and guess what? Waiting didn't harm me in the least. It taught me the value of not putting things on credit. I wish I'd learned the lesson even earlier in my life and marriage. We're trying to give you advice that will help you in the future. You dont' need two new computers. Either keep your laptop and use it, or if you're heart is set on a new gaming desktop you should have bought that instead of the laptop. Whether you accept our advice or not is up to you, I suspect you will not and will spend money that is intended for your education on a toy you don't really need. I find that sad, and I certainly don't blame your parents for hesitating to help you be irresponsible.
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: And a car with a backseat big enough to comfortably accomodate the two carseats we're going to need shortly.
{derail} did I miss an announcement???? Congrats to both of you!!!! {/derail}
I'm curious about something. This 2K "computer loan" that you're applying for - is it specifically required to be for a computer? How do they know what you're actually spending that money on? I'm trying to understand if there's a mature reason for your insistence that you get another new machine that somehow we aren't getting.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:had it not been by MDG and had my parents listened to me when they got it for me and have had it built by my friend
That's another thing. I don't think you're being careful enough about your friend. Before he builds it -- IF you decide to go through with this -- try putting the parts list up on this site. We'll be able to tell you if it's a good deal or not.
---------
quote:That reminds me, my sister and her husband will be moving to Madison soon (March), so I'll have a good excuse to visit all the hatrackers around there...
fugu, is your sister going to be working for Epic? If so, and if it's not a done deal yet, warn her off. The company's a meat-grinder nowadays.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I don't think it was epic, though I'll check. Its a low travel position, and when she interviewed she got to talk to a lot of random people working there and liked the work environment quite a bit.
You are right, though, many times the high salaries involved nowadays are tied to 'meat-grinder' workplaces involving routine 60-70-80 hour plus weeks and extensive travel.
She's not going to be there long term (and the place understands this), she's hoping to work four to six years while her husband gets his nursing degree and has a chance to work some, then they're returning to India with their savings when they have enough and opening a small business, a bed and breakfast/English school.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I was just concerned because I've seen a lot of young programmers and software architects come to Epic recently, lured by the promise of their old, laid-back environment, a new building, and high salaries. They've even offered me a job. And sadly, while the people who've been there from the beginning are still treated fairly well, the people they're hiring nowadays are being treated like cattle who just happen to know how to code -- and since so many of them are fresh out of college, they don't know that it's neither normal nor required.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Well, no worries about knowing how to program or be a software architect in her case; she has minimal training in how to use a database and do a tiny bit of VBA, I think. Her job position is more IT systems-related, doing work related to planning installs of RFID inventory management and the like, or contemplating major purchasing decisions. I will find out if its for Epic, though.
Posted by anti_maven (Member # 9789) on :
Hi Blayne,
Just a thought - any chance of financing the "new" computer by selling parts from the "old" computers on eBay (for example)? Unless you are into home networking or have some sort of cluster happening you don't really need more than one box...
Mind you, I would consider the advice you are getting here VERY seriously.
There are NO guarantees. Only death, taxes and repayments. Banks don't care how tough your life is, how unfairly you are treated or what excuses you have. They want their money back; every month, on time and no buts.
Think twice about every penny you get on credit. It's not easy money. Look at the conditions of the loan. You will probably end up paying twice the street value of your machine. If you save the cash, you'll get a better box and not have a cold feeling in your bank account at the end of every month.
If I sound like I'm preaching it's just that in a couple of years time I don't want to read a thread entitled "What! They're foreclosing on my freaking loan!"
Good luck with whatever you decide. I for one wish you every success!
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Yes there's 2 thou thats offered explicitedly to get a new computer and computer related assesories.
I'lld probly keep the old box to act as a linux server, since I do scripting now.
47k$ was the minimum the recruitment person told me I could make full time in the reserves in the current trade I have chosen (administration).
My friend I have known for 3 years ish, its not him exactly its his father I'm getting the parts from:
His dad is an electrical engineer for a company that makes robotic arms for factories, so to help his company dans dad started a home computer store, kinda like those order parts online kind of things, he gets really good deals for his company.
Basically for anything voer a thousand $ you get ALOT more of your moneys worth, industrial grade machines at a low price, the actual cost of making say a 60$ power supply is 15 cents, its not hard to lower your prices and still make a profit.
I already got a brand new 600$ video card for only 206$ a ATI x850XT.
So far I am veyr satisfied with both the power supply and the video card I have purchased from my friend's dad. Ill get the parts from his dad and my friend will build my machine, he has built his own 4000$ machine and it works fine.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
A useful bit of information for you: military recruiters lie. I'm not saying this one was lying in this instance, I'm saying there are frequently recorded instances of military recruiters lying (its even a common trope in military stories), and that you cannot know if he is lying in this instance. Furthermore, being in the reserves does not mean you will be able to get a full time position with them. It does not mean you will be able to get a full time position in administration even if thats your area of specialization.
There's more than 15 cents worth of metal in a power supply, and given the extraordinary commoditization on everything except a few key components, I think you'll find that most places are selling at near cost (don't forget cost includes inventory space, advertising, et cetera).
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
fugu:
1) This is Canada and there is a genuin shortage of administration people all over Canada the chances are pretty high.
2) However if yuor a home buisness who already works for a bigger buisness and only just buys the power supply from the manufacturor you can reduce the costs by alot, in this case I got a new power supply for 60$ when it was closer to 80$.
Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
Blayne, I went to a thrift store and bought a 17 inch CRT monitor for $10 a few months back. Why not just go buy a cheap monitor to get your current desktop back up and rely on that for say, give yourself at least 6 months to get on your feet before making such a large investment?
[ November 22, 2006, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: Ben ]
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
Blayne,
You're super wrong about power supplies. I'm an electrical engineer in the energy business. The place where I work both designs and builds product. We operate in more of a niche market, selling to power plants mostly, and would kill to have the kind of profit margin you're describing.
In a super competitive market, like computer components, most of those parts are going to cost fairly close to what you pay for them- there is more of a reliance on volume than profit margin. Besides the electrical, mechanical, and approvals engineers involved in a simple project like a power supply, there's also a printed circuit board that costs more than $.15, transformers, and heck, even a decent 470uF capacitor can cost an order of magnitude higher than your supposed price for the whole unit.
Sorry for the rant, but take Tom's advice and post the list for people to give you feedback. More importantly, take everyone's advice and wait until you have $ in hand to buy it.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
fugu, I dunno how often you check sake, but I PM'd you there with my response about starting salaries, as it goes quite off topic for this thread. Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
quote: But I really really really really really want it.
You have been given very solid advice in the thread Blayne. The advice is logical, sound, beneficial, and has thousands (if not millions) of life examples to prove its' accurateness. It has also been offered in a sincere effort to support and help you.
Having wants dictate your purchases is a sure way to make your life financially insolvent.
I don't think you will listen because maturity cannot be forced. I do think you should bookmark this page for future reference.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
i have and i already said ill keep the advice under advisement once i get more information, I highly doubt im spending anywhee near 2,000$.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Blayne, I understand that you really really really really want it and that this loan is specifically for buying a computer. But what you need to remember is that it is still a loan and you will have to pay it back with interest. If this is a student loan, you won't have to make payments or pay interest until you graduate, but eventually you will have to pay back that $2000. So 2 - 3 years down the road this computer will be worth nothing but you will still owe $2000 for it. At that point you are going to really really really want a new computer, and a place to live, and possibly a car and furniture and who knows what else and that $2000 computer loan will mean you have to go without some of those things or borrow even more money.
Right now a $45 K/yr job you might get after graduation sounds like a lot of money, but trust me it won't be nearly as much as it sounds. First off, by the time the deduct your taxes and benefits, you will only be get 1/2 to 2/3 of the $45 K. Most people are shocked at how much smaller their first pay check is than they expected. Second, you will have a whole slough of expenses you aren't thinking about. You will probably need a car to get to work which will mean you will need car insurance. Your job probably won't let you wear the ratty jeans and T-shirts you wear to school so you will need new clothes. You probably won't be able to easily find a bunch of young people to room with, so your rent will go way up. You will probably be sick of eating mac and cheese and living with Salvation Army furniture. You will likely want to start saving for a down payment on a house. You may even be thinking of getting married or at least spending more money on dating. All those things will eat into that "big salary" much much more than you expect.
The bottom line is that if you take this $2000 loan now to buy the computer that you "really really really really want" right now, it will absolutely mean going without something that you "really really really really want" in the future.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: 47k$ was the minimum the recruitment person told me I could make full time in the reserves in the current trade I have chosen (administration).
This is total crap. No question.
Blayne, I didn't express this very strongly before, but I think that you might want to wait a few years before joining the military, if you can.
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
I got a figure like that Blayne, when I was going to school. What I found out is that I wasn't getting paid $45K, but that the real salary was somewhere around $30K. The recruiter used value of the housing, discounted food, no sales tax on base, health benefits, etc to say say it was 45K.
That would have been like my current employer overstating my offer by rolling in the fact that there's no state income tax in Nevada, adding what the company copays for my health insurance, cost of a gym membership (because they provide an onsight gym), cost of an onsight doctor, etc. Instead, they just told me the salary offer, described the benefits, and let me weigh it against other offers. You should expect as much from the military.
Be careful to ask questions, get everything broken down for you, get independent verification, and read the fine print. At least the recruiter was honest with me when I confronted him about the apparent discrepancies (by looking up officer pay and doing some simple math).
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
People, as much as I appreciate that you're trying to help Blayne, please keep in mind that I need him to finish our Great Game. Just a few more weeks, then he can be as financially responsible as you want! We've been playing since 1066, and I would really, really hate to have to quit when we're only 50 years from the end. I want to see where this world goes. So any moratorium on gaming is certainly going to have to wait until we're done.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
KOM, Can't he play with you on his laptop?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:Can't he play with you on his laptop?
Holy crap.
I didn't read KoM's post, so this post was quite a shock considering it came from The Rabbit. Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Kat, Get your mind out of the gutter!
That was laptop as in laptop computer, not "lap".
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Its too bad you didn't make this thread earlier Blayne. My office had some surplus flat screen monitors, and some cpus. You could have salvaged I am sure.
Blayne my advice is in the save the money til you can afford it camp. I cannot stress how close I have come to debt but have stayed out by the skin of my teeth. Honestly speaking if you are careful with your expenditures such as eating grocery food that you cook and looking for the good deals, I imagine if you have a full time job and you wait around for you tax return there will be enough there coupled with your income to buy a very good computer.
I can completely understand why you will want gaming as an option. Going to a new environment can be tough business and gaming provides a comforting familiarity. But I seriously suggest you use your old computers in any capacity you can for just a few months so you can get your finances in order. Until they are, wants simply must be on the backburner.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I don't believe in cars, only mass transit so problem solved and a veyr large fraction of persons expenses made smaller.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I'll also chime in on "save money until you can afford it." Seriously. Whether or not you think you'll be spending $2000 isn't the issue. The issue is that you're buying something significant that you don't actually need with money that you don't actually have. A loan isn't money that you have. A loan is money that you aren't going to have later.
-pH
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: People, as much as I appreciate that you're trying to help Blayne, please keep in mind that I need him to finish our Great Game. Just a few more weeks, then he can be as financially responsible as you want! We've been playing since 1066, and I would really, really hate to have to quit when we're only 50 years from the end. I want to see where this world goes. So any moratorium on gaming is certainly going to have to wait until we're done.
Since this is so important to you, I'm sure YOU'd be happy to give him that $2000. Hey, let's say just say $1000 for the cheaper option that was recommended earlier.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Yeah, that's what I thought.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
That'll teach him to speak with his tongue firmly in cheek.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: I don't believe in cars, only mass transit so problem solved and a veyr large fraction of persons expenses made smaller.
That would be why you're always getting rides from people, then?
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
let me rephrase I dont believe in driving cars, I'm perfectly fine with being driven if it gets me there faster and pay next to nothing except of course in the currency of gratitude and kindness returned.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
You don't even offer gas money?
-pH
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Since when have I ever had money to offer to pay for gas? no if a firend gives me a ride I say thank you and try to return the favor.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
The point is, where you are going, will you be able to cadge rides? If not, you may find that your personal mobility is drastically curtailed. Not that this is a problem, exactly; more opportunity to play games. I did without a car the first year in the US. You might want to invest in a bike, though.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
the plac eim moving to hopefully will at the leats have a bus terminal near by to get to my college, and form there I can get to anywhere else. Montreal has buses everywhere and metros that lead to othe rbuses.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Since when have I ever had money to offer to pay for gas? no if a firend gives me a ride I say thank you and try to return the favor.
Blayne, if you can't afford to give your friends gas money for shuttling you around, I really don't think you need to be taking out loans to buy unnecessary things.
-pH
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: the plac eim moving to hopefully will at the leats have a bus terminal near by to get to my college, and form there I can get to anywhere else. Montreal has buses everywhere and metros that lead to othe rbuses.
Key word there is "hopefully". You NEED to find this out first. Because you NEED to make your own arrangements for transportation. That's the adult and mature thing to do. Depending on your family, friends, classmate, coworkers, etc to drive you around for free is just one example of the irresponsible behavior that your father is seeing and using against you.
And guess what. Public transportation aint free. A monthly pass on Montreal's STM system is about 3/4 of the cost of Chicago's CTA monthly, but that's still an operating expense you need to budget for.
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
I don't have a car, or a license (but I can parrallel park!) and I get around with public transportation: trolley and bus.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I can write as part of my expensives the cost of transportation and get it added to my bursuries, also only recently I can not afford to pay for gas, now I have a job so if I really have to I will once im paid.
And I mean hopefully because for all I know it coul be demolished tomorrow, I am never sure of anything but my friend assures me there is a bus terminal and an IGA near by.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
First off....Blayne, I hope that you realize that no one here is picking on you. They may be giving you advice that is the same, or similar to, what your dad says, but they are offering sound advice.
Go see the bus terminal yourself. Do the math, including interest on the loan, and find out why most people think taking a loan out for a gaming computer is not a good idea. Look at it without an ax to grind, and make a decision based on financial considerations.
Just because you thin your dad is an ass (he may or may not be IRL) doesn't mean he is really wrong about this, even if his delivery sucks.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Blayne,
You are getting some pretty good advice here. If I had it all to do over, I would only use credit for two types of things:
1) Absolute necessities without which I could not survive or take on a position that was already offered to me and which paid enough to easily cover the expense within a short time (say 1 month, 2 at the most). This list is pretty short and includes medical care and some legitimate business expenses (like a decent but not extravagant "starter" wardrobe that I had to have in order to go to work at my first office job).
2) Long term assets with a high probability of increasing in value faster than the interest paid on the debt, or where the alternative sunk costs for things would be higher. This is basically limited to things like houses and only in certain economic climates.
In the grand scheme of things, this means never using credit to purchase things like: - assets that depreciate (like cars, computers, etc.) - non-necessities (like nicer clothing than I can pay cash for, better furniture than I could pay cash for, etc.) - entertainment (including vacations)
The amount of money I have wasted in my life (to date) on interest payments is staggering. It also has meant that I ALWAYS have to opt for earning more, working more, traveling more, etc. That has worked out fine for me at this point in my career. I work at a great company where I am valued. But there have been some pretty negative experiences along the way that I had to simply "suck up" because the options available to me didn't pay enough to keep up my debt payments.
I am not alone in this. Ask around. The term "wage slave" is a fairly apt description of most people. Even when you LOVE what you are doing, the idea that you have to keep doing it indefinitely because you're in a debt hole can be pretty depressing at times.
And the other depressing thought is that you have no-one to blame but yourself.
Because frankly, the process starts back when one is 18, 19, 20...and if you make the wrong choices then, you start yourself on a cycle that becomes inescapable without some pretty drastic measures (such as bankruptcy).
It seems like nothing now, but that $2000 debt when you are finally starting on your first job will be an anchor. If they decide they can only pay you a portion of the money you expect, it means you'll be floating that debt for longer.
And, of course, to earn money sometimes you DO have to spend money (clothing, a car, utilities, etc., etc.). When you look back at it, that $2000 will have cost you $6,000 in real money over the years. It will be a drag on you moving on. And you'll delay things like saving for retirement so long that it just becomes a joke: "Oh yeah, I'll be able to retire, just so long as there are still 3rd world countries I can move to, or the stores still sell dogfood at 3 cans for a dollar."
On the other hand, you can try to save your cash and when you have enough, pay cash for the purchases you need. So a $1000 computer costs you exactly $1000. Not $1,000 plus $2,000 in interest over the years.
That extra $2,000 you didn't burn up on interest can be used for something else. Or saved so that you can retire sooner than otherwise would be possible.
And, there WILL come a day when having saved up enough to survive for a few months will bring some very welcome relief as you find yourself out of work, or hating your job and needing the flexibility to start over, do something else, etc.
If your 40-year-old self could come back in time to today and talk to your 19-year-old self, he would tell you to NOT start taking on debt right now. Do yourself a favor and listen to the advice you're getting here.
The ones who are telling you this are probably either still in that gravity-well of debt or have experienced just how difficult it is to climb out of it. They are trying to save you a ton of anguish.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
my 40 year old self would come back only to tell me how to bring about world revolution. ^-^
But yes, I am doing all the calculations, as soon as I have time ill check the place out, and do some calculations, my friend has using excel come up with the approximate expences of 2 ppl in a 5 1/2 apartment (which Ild get to my self most of the time) 800 ish a month by the looks of it, we're figuring out how we can budget it to be less, for exmple buying from cosco, trips to chinatown to get ingredients for general tao chicken to cook and sell to locals etc.
so far my current job can make me 500 a month, the reserves will hopefully close the gap alot more, working flltime over the summer will also help keep the budget balanced.
Also there's a big difference between the advice here and the advice at home, my dad focuses on things ive done wrong in life aka tripping going up the stairs, as a reason not to sign, and when I proe him wrong he ignores it, changes the topic or tells me to shut up. The advice here is alot better and doesnt resort to insults.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: I can write as part of my expensives the cost of transportation and get it added to my bursuries,
Maybe it works differently in Canada than it does here. But here, each school calculates standard amounts (different for dependent and independent) for transportation, room & board, etc. The fact that your personal expenses may go up (or go down) would NOT change the amount of aid you receive.
I doubt this is different there, but check with your financial aid counselor.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
its the case, im given a sheet of paper to write down my opproximate expenseives for my student loans.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Yes, of course you are. But that doesn't mean a change in your expenses will result in a change in the aid you receive.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
thats not what my financial aid person said.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Your financial aid person likely told you they can update your financial aid package as your need changes. This does not mean they will update it every time your list of expenses changes slightly, this means if there's a major change in your need they will update it to reflect that.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
the remainder of the loan I can return.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
What fugu said. Large changes -- moving out and having the expense of a dorm or apartment, for example -- might cause your aid amount to be reassessed. Getting a bus pass will almost certainly not.
Moreover, even if your aid amount goes up, it will not necessarily entirely cover your additional expenses. Almost no school I know of claims to cover 100% of need. Most are in the 50-80% range.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I know moving gets me an extra 1000$ in bursuries.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*nod* Students living at home have a different standard room & board amount than those living elsewhere.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: the remainder of the loan I can return.
If you take out the loan -- and I am not suggesting that you should -- you should invest the balance of the loan if you're allowed to do so. The interest earned will help you toward paying back the loan. If you take it, you should do your absolute utmost to pay it back by the time you graduate. In Ontario, you begin to accrue interest on student loans six months after graduating. The last thing you want is to accrue interest on a loan you took out to buy something you didn't need.
Having said all of that, I don't think you should take out the loan. You should only go into debt for emergencies, tuition, or long-term non-depreciating investments (e.g. a house). I understand that you really want a new computer -- I'm a pretty heavy gamer and I know what it's like to want a new system or console, and want it badly, but I would never have considered going into debt simply to fund my gaming habit.
Consider: If you came here and posted about how you were going to take out a loan to fund your cocaine addiction or your bottle cap collecting habit, people would be extremely concerned. A computer has utility beyond gaming, yes, but you've already got a laptop and have said that you're just buying it because you want a gaming rig.
This is not a sound financial decision. The same components you've just spec'ed will be significantly cheaper when you've saved up enough to be able to buy the computer without a loan. No matter how confident you are that you'll be able to pay the loan back before interest kicks in, until you've actually spent a couple of terms in school and have a better feel for how much it costs, you can't guarantee that you won't wind up paying interest.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Blayne, I am glad that you are at least considering the answers we have given you. I just wanted to make sure you realize how valuable this type of advice is, and how rarely it is offered without strings IRL.
You can still play your games, if not be the fastest gamer out there. I think that in the long run it would be far more valuable for you to avoid debt for as long as possible. If your financial situation is so limited that selling food to your neighbors is a viable income generator I don't think borrowing money is very responsible.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
quote: If your 40-year-old self could come back in time to today and talk to your 19-year-old self, he would tell you to NOT start taking on debt right now. Do yourself a favor and listen to the advice you're getting here.
The ones who are telling you this are probably either still in that gravity-well of debt or have experienced just how difficult it is to climb out of it. They are trying to save you a ton of anguish.
Bob very clearly said what I wanted to say. Those of us who are trying so very hard to discourage you from taking a loan out on a computer know, very likely from hard personal experience, what a bad decision it is.
When I went to university a couple of decades ago, I had no one to give me any financial advice. My parents don't spend money wisely themselves, and there's never been any amount of communication regarding financial matters. I was completely on my own. I made a lot of mistakes.
If I could go back in time and give my younger self sound financial advice, I'd be saying a lot of things that had already been said in this thread. Hopefully, I'd listen and make very different choices.
We're giving you this advice because we care about you. We don't want you to make the same mistakes we did. We don't want you to wind up in the same position we've been in ourselves. We want you to have a better start, one that's easier and filled with much less stress & despair and much more hope.
We want a better future for you.
Good luck.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Blayne,
Have you been exposed to how to calculate compound interest on debts? The real cost of that computer is not $977.xx
The real cost is $977 + the interest that accrues. Now, granted, you intend to pay it off before you start owing interest, but, from the sounds of it, you may not really be in a financial position to do so.
Just imagine the situation that is MOST likely, not the one that is idealized and will work if everything falls into place for you at just the right instant.
Then imagine a WORST CASE scenario. One where, let's imagine, your government goes through massive spending cuts, reduces the number of people in the reserves, the economy tanks and there are fewer positions available for recent grads, etc. etc. Seriously, ask around. Ask some people who are just a few years older than you and what happened to them when they graduated and couldn't find work in their fields. Instead of pulling down decent wages for starting professional positions, they made a bit above minimum wage and many were faced with moving home, delaying life plans (like marriage, homebuying, etc.)
Do some math to see what you are really sticking yourself with.
And realize too that this is just the beginning. If you do not discipline yourself now, you will not be able to do it very much later either. And when someone offers you a larger loan, you'll take it, spend it and end up owing more, and more, and more...
This is how it all starts. You buy something you "want badly" and borrow to do it, and then find out that you can't pay it back the way you'd convinced yourself you could when you made the purchase decision. You will very easily decide that this computer isn't good enough and you'll spend more next year, and the next, and the next. It will also be easier to convince yourself of other needs. It's easy because you don't see the downside of all that borrowing until many years down the road.
Sorry to be so blunt, but this is a very important decision you are making now. It has far more importance than the simple dollar amount.
You obviously can take out the loan and buy the computer. But you should try to discipline yourself.
twinky's idea of investing the other money...well...I don't like it because I think that the investments aren't always a sure bet, but since the money is interest free, maybe it'd work.
In which case, why not borrow the money and invest ALL of it? If that's "legal" and "legitimate" use of the money, then it really is like someone is giving you a gift and you could make a nice little nest egg from it as it sits earning you money during the remainder of your school years. Then, just before it starts costing you interest payments, you pay back the loan and pocket the proceeds. That way, instead of ending your college career in debt, you've actually ended it with a bit of money set aside. Which you could use to cover moving expenses, the new (modest) wardrobe you may need upon starting your new job, the deposit on your new apartment when you move, and funding some other things that will be real necessities.
AND, you might actually make it through that first year after graduation without having further saddled yourself with debt.
If that's a legal/legit use of that money, then that would be the best possible option.
If not, then just let it go, don't buy the computer, and make do with whatever you can afford to pay cash for.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
If you're going that route, be VERY sure that it's a subsidized loan, not an unsubsidized one. The former (and these are US standards, but again, I'm pretty sure Canadian ones are very similar) means the government pays the interest until 6 months after you graduate; the latter means either you pay the interest, or it accumulates until you have to start paying back the loan after graduation.
Borrowing money at a low rate (or really, even interest-free) in order to invest it sounds like a seriously foolish idea to me, but heaven knows people make money doing it all the time.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Interest free would be great, but I'd be cautious and only "invest" in something with a guaranteed return (like a certificate of deposit or some other sure bet -- NEVER the stock market or some other volatile investment).
But yeah, check out the loan provisions, there are some types of loans where they are willing to loan you the money interest free as long as you pay it off before the loan comes due, but then if you fail to pay it off, you owe interest for the entire time you had the money, not just from the point when it came due.
I don't really know how educational loans work, but if they work like that, definitely steer clear of it if you intend to spend the money. The unpaid fully accrued interest will make your initial loan seem very small in comparison.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
RE: APARTMENT:
Have you guys budgeted for the deposits you may have to pay before move-in?
In the US, first and last months rent and sometimes an additional cleaning deposit are required before move-in. That means on an $800/mo apartment you may need to pay $1,600 or more the day you move in.
It is fairly typical of student housing to require extra deposits because the places usually get so trashed that they need the money to do renovations after the students move out. So...don't expect to get your deposit back if they call it a "cleaning deposit" or something like that.
And the reason they collect first & last months rent is so that if you miss a rent payment they can come and tell you have until the end of the month to get out.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: But yeah, check out the loan provisions, there are some types of loans where they are willing to loan you the money interest free as long as you pay it off before the loan comes due, but then if you fail to pay it off, you owe interest for the entire time you had the money, not just from the point when it came due.
I don't really know how educational loans work, but if they work like that, definitely steer clear of it if you intend to spend the money.
No educational loan I know of works like that. Stafford loans are either subsidized (if student need is high enough) or unsubsidized, as I explained above.
I don't know much about highly targeted loans like the one Blayne says is for computers specifically.
One additional catch. I am fairly certain some of the paperwork that you (and your parents) will have to sign specifies that the funds be used for educational purposes, such as tuition, fees, books, and room & board. Taking the money and investing it is at best a gray area, and may actually be illegal.
And as I said before, I think it's a bad idea, regardless of its legal status.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Rental laws in Canada vary from province to province. I've rented in Alberta and BC, and in neither province is it legal to require last month's rent, only first month's rent and damage deposit which was equal to half a month's rent. In both provinces, if any of the damage deposit was to be retained by the landlord on moving out, they're legally required to provide an itemized bill detailing the specific reasons and costs.
Getting a landline, if you have no credit history, usually involves a few hundred dollars for a deposit, same as for utilities. Electric and gas may be done separately or on the same bill, depending on how it's set up in that area. If it's an apartment, heating may or may not be included, but electricity almost never is.
Blayne, have you done the research on these things for your province/area? Do you know how much you'll require in the way of deposits?
Also, some landlords will require the names and signatures of all inhabitants on the lease where others will require just one. Neither one is better - they both come with potential problems if there are difficulties in the rental arrangements, communications, and living style with your roommate.
Telephone, electric, water, gas usually want only one name on the bill. Make sure that, regardless of whose name goes on the bill, that you discuss in advance exactly how you plan to handle all the bills, when they'll be paid, etc. It's far better to be absolutely crystal clear, verbalizing things that you think don't need to be because they should be understood by everyone, when in reality, everyone walks in with a different understanding from everyone else.
I've had a lot of roommates over the years. A lot. With my first roommate situation, we actually came up with a list of household rules with appropriate punishments for breaking each rule before we even moved in together. It may seem like overkill, but the reality is that we had no communication problems and rarely had difficulties of any kind. Spelling things out as clearly as we did made sure there were no misunderstandings in expectations.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
listen to rivka -- she knows this type of loan far better than I do. And, yeah, I would guess that if the loan is earmarked specifically for computer purchases, then using it for anything else would be illegal.
Also, I think Tom mentioned the moral implications of taking money when you really don't need it, since it then would not be available to some other student who really does. The immorality of taking that money and investing it would give me pause even if doing so turned out to be legal.
So...forget I suggested it.
Re: Rental situations, yes, I have to imagine that your first room-mate experience will be similar to my own and that of several people I know.
In essence, you'll have a bunch of selfish, slobby people who are focused on things other than respecting shared spaces and each other's food and belongings. It makes for some pretty uncomfortable situations, even if you all basically like one another. Quid has some good ideas on how to make the situation work well.
Good luck with that!
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Telephone, electric, water, gas usually want only one name on the bill. Make sure that, regardless of whose name goes on the bill, that you discuss in advance exactly how you plan to handle all the bills, when they'll be paid, etc. It's far better to be absolutely crystal clear, verbalizing things that you think don't need to be because they should be understood by everyone, when in reality, everyone walks in with a different understanding from everyone else.
A signed co-tenants' agreement can be wonderful here, both for setting expectations and making those expectations enforceable if necessary. Many college housing offices have standard forms valid for their jurisdiction.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: Also, I think Tom mentioned the moral implications of taking money when you really don't need it, since it then would not be available to some other student who really does. The immorality of taking that money and investing it would give me pause even if doing so turned out to be legal.
Yes. That happens a lot; students' parents will be footing the college bill, but the kids take out loans anyway and use them to buy houses. Thus making it all the more difficult for students whose parents are of a similar financial standing but AREN'T paying the bill to get the money they need.
-pH
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Well, we already know that Blayne doesn't need this loan, because he doesn't need a desktop computer. If he takes out the loan anyway, and it's legal to invest it (which it may very well not be since it's specifically for the purpose of buying computers), he may as well do that. If it isn't legal, returning the balance would probably be best, which Blayne already mentioned as a possibility.
Of course, I don't think he should take out the loan at all.
Added: Having said all of that, in Ontario at least the financial aid you can get is determined in part by your parents' income. I believe this is true regardless of whether your parents are actually helping you financially. I don't know if it's the same in Quebec.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
): if you are![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
![[Evil Laugh]](graemlins/evillaugh.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)