I've been debating posting this all night. I'm not sure exactly why, as only one person on here actually knows me in the real world. Still, I bounced back and forth. I'd start to type something then quickly erase it and go back to other things. Something keeps pulling me back though, and so I guess it's something that I need to post or else it's just going to keep popping up in my mind.
So for those who have read some of my posts in the past, you know I've had debates about religion. Not so much in doubt of Christianity but more in regards to which sect was the right one. As you also probably know, I met with Mormon missionaries quite a few times (probably in the double digits) to discuss their religion and questions/problems I had in regards to it. They were more than happy to talk to me. In fact, they seemed to really like the fact that I had looked into it and had questions for them to discuss. After a missed meeting in the latter part of the spring (they missed the time by about 30 minutes and I was already in class), I sort of dropped it. They didn't call me, and I didn't put forth any effort in contacting them. I felt sort of conflicted and not really sure what to do with myself. I was also busy with school and application/paperwork for my trip to Japan. The whole thing sort of fell into the back of my mind.
I went to Japan for six weeks and in this time period I had time to think about myself and my take on things and such. I was busy in Japan, but the stuff I was doing and seeing was causing me to reflect a lot more. Something about being in a totally new culture with different values and ways of viewing stuff makes you think about yourself and how you view the world. During my first week in Japan, I had a roommate with the family I stayed with. One night we got to talking and we ended on the subject of religion. I talked about my sort of indecisiveness in regards to which way to go and how I had explored some different options. I think from this discussion onwards I thought about religion when reflecting on myself and all.
I think I gained some perspective on things. I started to see where I fit and where I didn't. I think I started getting a better picture of who I am and what I want out of my life. When I got back from Japan, I knew that I wanted to be more actively religious. I wanted to get involved. I wanted a strong community. I wanted that something that was missing in my life.
Yet despite this, once I returned to living on my own, I didn't pursue religion. I increased my religious reading (went back to my attempt to read through the entire Bible as well as reading several Christian inspirational books). I didn't go to church though. I made excuses for why I couldn't go and just kept avoiding it. When I started to think about it, I realized I was conflicted. There was the religion I wanted to go to and the one I felt like I could go to. There was a sharp divide, and so I kept putting it off.
If it isn't already apparent, I'm feeling drawn to the Mormon church. I didn't really want to admit it at first, but it became harder to deny. Earlier today, one of my friends said to me "You should become a Mormon." I asked why, and she responded "Because you want to." I wanted to argue with her (and I even tried), but it was hard to deny. I did want to. I just don't think I can.
I've got reasons/excuses why I don't think I can. The most major of these is my family. While my sister would be fine and wouldn't care about whatever I choose and while my father would accept it at least grudgingly (he said at one point to me "I want you to be happy, so whatever ends up making you happy I will be fine with in the end"), my brother and my mother are totally different stories. They both have a sort of ignorant and slightly prejudiced view of the Mormon church. If they make jokes about it, I (and occasionally my sister) am the only one who tries to stick up for it and explain it. They really don't seem to care for the Mormon church (not to say they don't like some of the people that are part of it). If I joined the Mormon church, I think it would cause a strong division between me and them. While my mother would probably eventually accept it and tolerate it, I think she would be disappointed and maybe even angry for a period (and I'm not sure how long that period would last). With my brother, I have no clue for sure how he would react. He could grudgingly accept that I've chosen a different path for myself. At the same time, he could be disappointed with me and turn his attention to trying to separate me from the church (no doubt, he would try to logically/rationally argue with me about it). While in the end they might accept it, I'm not sure I'm strong enough to take the stand and face the divide that would follow. My family is too important and too integral to my life. They're the only people I talk to every day. They're the people that matter most to me. I just don't know how I could take the division.
The second problem, which is more minor, is that I still have some problems with some of the things in the Book of Mormon and the Doctrines and Covenants. A lot of my initial problems I've been able to rationalize at least somewhat. I at least have some explanation that I can try and make an argument from. I still have some problems though. I'm sure over time I would be able to rationalize some of them. It's sort of a sticking point in my mind though. I find it hard to make a decision that will alter my life drastically when I still have some doubts.
The final problem is a matter of self-esteem and my view of myself. I have a hard time convincing myself that I am good enough for some of the more conservative and rule-oriented sects of Christianity. I see myself as extremely flawed. I see myself doing things that (even though they are super minor) bad/wrong. I feel like I should be so much better in order to be worthy of a place in the religion. Most people just tell me that I am way too hard on myself. Even so, it's a problem that I need to deal with before I think I can join up.
So now I'm sort of stuck and not sure what to do. I continue to feel like I'm being pulled one way, and yet I just can't get myself to go that way. I really don't know what to do. While I have a sort of plan/goal for the other main areas of my life, I don't have one for this area. Instead I feel like I'm walking blindly in a sort of foggy haze, which is rather frustrating. I don't know why I post this here as I don't know what anyone here can do. I just felt like I should post here.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
First thing to understand - there's no reason why this has to happen today or tomorrow. You can take your time to reconcile things, figure things out.
Second, you have no control over how others react. You only have control over yourself. Decide for yourself what you want to do, what kind of person you want to be. They decide for themselves. I know this doesn't always necessarily make it easier, but... I have major problems with religion in my family, but it's their problem. I still have to live according to my conscience.
Third, no one in the church - any church, any religion (or lack thereof) - is perfect. The LDS church is no exception. There are plenty of people who are LDS, actively LDS, and are still deeply flawed. I'm one of them. I know many, many others. The point is not to be perfect going in. The point is that it's a church for people who are trying to be better. (Okay, some people have different attitudes to this than I - that's fine. But at least some of us feel this way. )
Personally, I vote you study things - read the Book of Mormon, the Bible, go to church. See where they take you. Don't be in a hurry. Make changes in your life that you already know you need to make. Start on your journey towards being less flawed now. Work on developing a healthier self-esteem. Work on resolving your emotional/psychological issues now. And seek after truth in religion and God at the same time. Personally, I find that, when I do the things I already know I should be doing, then I'm in a much better position to figure out the other things.
Good luck. And keep us posted. Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I wish you the best in figuring out what to do. Those are not easy problems to wrestle with.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:A lot of my initial problems I've been able to rationalize at least somewhat. I at least have some explanation that I can try and make an argument from. I still have some problems though. I'm sure over time I would be able to rationalize some of them.
Dude, are you sure you meant to use the word 'rationalise' in this context? As a general rule, if you have to rationalise something, it's not actually that great an idea.
Posted by cmc (Member # 9549) on :
Maybe sometimes rationalize means understand for yourself, King of Men? Just how I read it, though.
I sort of get what you're going through, pfresh85. I'm at a similar point to you but a little different.
I just plan on keeping on learning for me, learning from other people and their experiences and then letting the road take me where it might. No plans to force anything, just exploring and absorbing until something feels right.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
I hope you figure out what works best for you. Any time of personal growth can be tough.
Personally, I don't feel that a group which focuses a great deal of time on outlining what you really shouldn't be doing, and what you should feel bad about is that great for the self-esteem.
I reacted the same way KoM did to all the talk of rationalizing things. To me, rationalizing a belief means that you don't really agree with it, but you're willing to either ignore it, or come up with a good enough reason that you don't have to really think about it and focus on why it bothers you.
I would recommend treating such an important life decision, both for you and for your family, with more thought and consideration, not more willingness to gloss over things which don't sit right with you. Trust your gut. If it doesn't feel right, explore why it doesn't. That way, whatever decision you reach, you'll do so feeling good about it, rather than with doubt nagging at you about what you had to overlook.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: I knew that I wanted to be more actively religious. I wanted to get involved. I wanted a strong community. I wanted that something that was missing in my life.
No offense, but from this and other posts you've made, it sounds like you might just be lonely and in need of people you can like and respect, rather than a desire for any kind of spiritual truth.
For instance, why do you want to join the Mormon church over, say, the Catholic church?
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
pfresh85 -- I think from your previous posts it is fairly clear that you seem to believe the Holy Bible is the inspired word of God.
quote:All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, (2Tim 3:16)
Seems to me, key to becoming a member of the LDS church, is that you have to accept that the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price, and the D&C books as having equal value, as well as any new doctrine release by the current president. All must be taken as inspired word of God.
Can you do that? (This was the area I never could). Also, can you embrace that Joseph Smith was a great apostle (I don't know if that is what the LDS call him -- I will ask for their correction here).
I am not LDS, so I'm not saying you should or shouldn't go one way or the other. I'm saying you should base it on what you feel is the inspired word of God, and you need to decide what that is.
FG
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
We consider Joseph Smith a prophet.
quote:I'm saying you should base it on what you feel is the inspired word of God, and you need to decide what that is.
I couldn't agree more. Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
Good Luck, pfresh. I hope you find what you feel is missing. I've been there. Just be sure you don't join a specific religion just for the social aspect. You'll ultimately only feel like an outsider or poser anyway. That said, if you're primarily looking for the social aspect and unsure of doctrinal points and whatnot, the LDS church is a good place to hang out. The people are usually friendly and you'd be more than welcome to attend, make friends and participate in all the social aspects of the church even if you choose not to officially join at first. Ultimately you'll probably either join or find out the doctrine isn't for you and stop going, but both of those seem more prudent to me than rushing into a commitment like baptism, especially if you still have significant doubts and questions.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Good luck pfresh. I am in a somewhat similar position. I don't have anything like the family issues you face (and I'm not leaning toward Mormonism in particular) but I think I understood perfectly what you meant by "rationalizing." I think it's that feeling that much of a particular view feels right, but one or two or however many specific issues are sticking points, and you're just wishing someone could help you understood it better, and maybe then you would discover that it's not inconsistent with your beliefs. Like you, I believe in a higher power, and like you, I feel the need to worship actively and in a community (and it's not because I'm lonely ). I also find that the specific communities/traditions I look into aren't a perfect match, but I suspect nothing will be, and I don't want to be in a religion of one, or start my own, so I look for the tradition that is least inconsistent with my beliefs. It sounds like you're a lot closer than I am.
You might feel that it's important to face the unpleasantness with your family, or you might not. I wouldn't worry either way, because in a few years you will feel like they have less power over your private decisions, and I suspect God won't be going anywhere in the meantime. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
You don't have to rush. Brigham Young investigated the church for two years before he decided to get baptized. I think what you're doing - thinking about it, wrestling with things, praying about it - is perfect.
For the question of what to do next, how about praying about it? You can decide whether to set a date, to wait, wait for a definite period of time, or not to worry about baptism at all right now and keep studying. Decide what seems best, and then ask the Lord if that's what he would have you do.
[ October 20, 2006, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I agree with everyone who says you shouldn't rush. Get involved in the church, go to all of the services and group stuff that you can without being baptized. But wait until you're sure to actually get baptized.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
katharina -- it is refreshing to hear you say that -- however, I hope pfresh's experience will be with a group that would allow it to happen that way.
Let me just say that when I investigated the LDS church as an option for myself several years ago, there was TREMENDOUS pressure to get baptized. I can't see this particular group possibly letting me attend for two years (or however long) without it becoming an incessant, annoying drip on my forehead -- the more they pressured, the less sure of it I felt.
So it is refreshing to hear an LDS say there is no rush.
FG
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Farmgirl,
I had an experience early in my mission that taught me the above.
A lot of times people will be interested and then get distracted by other things. That's not an indication that they weren't interested - just that it takes up time to explore a religion, and there are lots of good things that also compete for that time.
But my first investigator was a young woman named Stephanie from Taiwain. She was friends with some of our members and asked if she could come to church. She loved everything, and we invited her to be baptized. She said she'd like to think abouut it. That was fine. After about a month she said she had thought about it, prayed, and felt like she wanted to get baptized on her birthday. Great! When was her birthday? Two and a half months away!
The practical, worrying part of me was concerned, but when I prayed about it to ask if everything was okay, I felt very strongly that it's fine - it's better. You don't mess with someone else's revelation, and this is her life. She had prayed about a date and felt a confirmation of it. So, there you go.
Everything was fine. It was a fabulous baptism. Over a year later, I was in a different area when the mission mom called me. A branch president in Hong Kong had called the mission office at Stephanie's request to let them know that she was back in Hong Kong, was very active in the branch there, and wanted to pass along her thanks and good wishes and that kind of thing. Made me very happy. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I feel the need to worship actively and in a community (and it's not because I'm lonely).
Why is it, then? I have trouble imagining another motivation for myself, so I'm curious why other people feel this way.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
pfresh, I would echo Farmgirl, and suggest that you look into some other Christian sects (or even non-Christian religions, though it definitely appears you have an affinity to Christianity) as much as you have the LDS. Talk to a local Catholic priest, and/or a couple of protestant ministers, from several denominations. All of them would no doubt be as excited to discuss these things as the missionaries. Go to services at several churches (including the LDS!), and make a decision when it is right, not when you want it to be right.
-Bok
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Tom, personally, it's because it's affirming and, I don't know, joyful for me to worship with people who believe what I believe (at least mostly) and we can share things we hold as truths despite our differences and praise God together. It feeds the soul, at least for me. Praying alone is good, needful, has its own place in my life and will never be replaced. That's different than worship, though, I'd class that as "communion" with God, not "worship" of God. Singing hymns alone is good too, or praising God while I go about my day and marvel at the world. But singing hymns with a congregation and talking of God is wonderful.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
(And I'm going to echo quid and Katie's excellent advice.)
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
My advice is that before you "choose" a religion or sect, look strongly into what people have against it. From your post, it doesn't seem like you'll be making the conversion based on faith (or whatever you wanna call it). It doesn't sound like you'll have the strength to withstand criticisms based solely on the fact that you believe it's right. And, as you obviouly can see, there will be criticisms. Granted, the criticisms you recieve from joing the LDS church probably strike closer to home, coming from your family and all, but if you make a serious committment to any religion or sect, you will have people throw the various problems with your choice in your face constantly. So, make sure you're intimately familiar with what will be used against you, and see if your "faith" or "desire" wavers. If it does, then you've skipped a whole messy step .
Ooonnn a side note, I currently attend a Bible Study that is sponsored by an orginization I have some serious doctrinal and theological problems with. But, I was and am starved for community, so I overlook the problems (not accepting them or conforming to them) for the sake of the community that it offers. And they don't have a problem with that, as long as I don't bring the issues up. So .
Good luck.
P.S. I've seen a few videos put out that I've thought were extremely well done which dealt with the problems in the LDS church. If you're interested, I can email you the names of them and probably get a free one sent to you. I indirectly know the director.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Rut Roh.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Yeah, there's anti stuff everywhere. Keep in mind that those videos are made by people with their own agenda. You have to ask yourself what the motivation is for making them. Consider the source for all your information.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
pfresh, as a reference: For an adult to become a Catholic, he or she attends a weekly class from October to Easter with a sponsor who can help to judge whether or not this is the right religion.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Tom: It has been revealed to me.
Seriously, I have plenty of friends, and many of them would be weirded out by me suddenly going religious. I also have little patience with people who put self-righteous bumper stickers about how they're saved on their cars. So I'm not in it for the friends, but because on some level it feels right to worship in community to me. There are actually a lot of little reasons, none of which does justice to the whole thought process. I could try to enumerate the ones that are clearest in my own mind, and then you could no doubt point out logical alternative explanations--I'm filled with doubts, to obviously I see them too. But I'm leaning toward what, from my position, seems to be the preponderance of evidence. (I'm not trying to shut down your line of inquiry. I've spent years here and elsewhere inviting theists of various stripes to argue with me, to try to convince me. It'd be intellectually dishonest of me not to let atheists have the same shot. However, there will come a point where my answers are going to come down to what feels right on a gut level, and that's not going to satisfy you. You may at that point try to psychoanalyze my feelings, but given that you start from a position of disagreement with some of my conclusions, I worry that your analysis will inevitably be unflattering--much like someone supposing that pfresh is only considering conversion because she feels lonely.)
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Well, I know pfresh is considering conversion mainly because he/she feels lonely, because he/she has said so on other threads: that he/she feels the need for community but doesn't exactly need religion as much as purpose.
That said, I'm perfectly willing to grant that there are other motivations behind community worship, especially once (as we see with ketchupqueen) you grant the need for worship in the first place. Rest assured that I'm not going to try to talk people out of converting to a regimen that makes them happy and, at worst, costs them time and ten percent of their income; I know people who invest more in video games for presumably fewer rewards.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
Sorry about the lack of the replies. Sleep plus early morning class kept me off the computer till now. I think some of the people misunderstood (while some did understand) what I meant by rationalizing. I wasn't trying to say I think it's untrue but I'm making up reasons why to believe. What I meant (and I'll try to get this across clearly if I can) is that I believe it (whatever it happens to be) could be true, but I need to do further research into it (reading, Googling, praying, etc.) in order to accept it. I need to be able to reconcile it with my own view of the world and what I know about it, and usually this is done by research and such. Maybe rationalize was the wrong word in this case. I'm just trying to say there are things I'm unsure of and I need to come to it on my own terms. I need to decide for myself about them.
In regards to this quote (and others with similar sentiment):
quote:No offense, but from this and other posts you've made, it sounds like you might just be lonely and in need of people you can like and respect, rather than a desire for any kind of spiritual truth.
I will say that there's some truth here. I am lonely for people I can like AND (key here) respect. I found out in my time in Japan that I don't fit with a lot of people. While we may have things in common (interests or what not), we can't hang out as much as we have different views on things that either a) affect what we talk about or b) affect what goes on when we hang out. In Japan, the big conflict was smoking/drinking. I don't smoke, and I rarely drink (because I don't feel comfortable or really right doing so). With my friends there, often the plan for the nights we went out was "go to a ramen shop, then let them smoke, then go to the convenience store and get alcohol, then go to the park and drink/be stupid." I would tolerate it for as long as I could (which was usually several hours), but after a while it started to grate at me. I'd then tell my friends that I needed to go back (usually saying I needed to do homework, which was a legitimate excuse as it was during the week), and I'd leave. I just never feel comfortable around the drink and then be silly mentality. I know someone will probably say here "well you can find other people who don't drink outside of religion" and you may be right. I just haven't found any of them. All of my friends (even the ones who used to be staunch "I will not drink" people) drink, legally or illegally. A lot of times when we hang out, if drinking is involved I feel like I am the odd man out. I know it's all my problem, not theirs, since I am the one uncomfortable with the situation. I'm just not sure that it's going to change. I think I'm always going to feel uncomfortable and out of place in that situation.
I had something I was going to say, but after typing all that I seemed to have forgotten it. Hopefully it will come back to me. If it does, I'll be sure to post it up here.
EDIT: I remember now. Some were telling me to take my time, and actually that was already sort of in my plan as it was. While I'm feeling drawn to the Mormon church, it takes a bit to make me decide on anything (even trivial matters). Something like this will take me quite a while to make a decision on. At the same time, I know I'm at very temporary place in my life. I'm on my last year of college. After that I'm leaving the Dallas area and heading back to the Houston area. I don't think it's a good idea (for a few different reasons) to make a commitment to a group when I'm only going to be there for another 6 months or so tops. I think a large commitment for me will have to happen when I'm at a more permanent place in my life instead of in this sort of transition phase.
[ October 20, 2006, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: pfresh85 ]
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: Personally, I don't feel that a group which focuses a great deal of time on outlining what you really shouldn't be doing, and what you should feel bad about is that great for the self-esteem.
I don't have much personal experience with other religions, but I just wanted to let you know that you have a misconception about the LDS religion (and many others I'm assuming).
The vast majority of the time during church services is not spent talking about what members shouldn't do and what they should feel guilty about. Rather, it is an community of believers helping each other do the things they should be doing: developing faith, Christ-like attributes, serving others, building strong marriages and families, etc.
Even when things that are 'should nots' are discussed, they are almost always from the viewpoint of how doing the opposite has been a blessing. For example, rather than threatening eternal hellfire and damnation for premarital sex, the focus will be on ways that keeping the laws of chastity can led to positive results in your life. So occasionally there may be a lesson on things not to do, but even then they are put in positive, affirming terms. The focus is definately on things we should be doing.
I may be the one with misconceptions now, but I tend to think that most other sects of Christianity in this country are similar in that regard.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
quote:Yeah, there's anti stuff everywhere. Keep in mind that those videos are made by people with their own agenda. You have to ask yourself what the motivation is for making them. Consider the source for all your information.
I think the motivation is the same both for the makers of anti-Mormon videos and Mormon missionaries: Saving your soul. Posted by DaisyMae (Member # 9722) on :
pfresh - I can only imagine how difficult making a decision like this might be. I grew up LDS, but came to a time where I had to decide for myself if it was true. That was a difficult process for me, but when I ultimately gained my own testimony of the truth, it was right in keeping with what my family would wish for me. I have not experienced some of the struggles you are facing. I hope that you will find peace in whatever decision you make.
Truly, you are the only one who can decide. No one can convince you it is true, and if you feel you are inspired that it's true, no one should be able to convince you that it's not.
Take your time. Pray. Study. Decide, and move forward. If you come to the conclusion that it is right, surely the Lord will bless you in your situation with your family, even if it isn't right away. It might not be easy. It's difficult for me, as someone who believes with all my heart that the doctrines of the LDS church are true, not to hope you will feel the same way. But if you decide that you don't believe they are true, I do hope you will find the faith, community and relationship with God you are seeking.
My only advice would be to beware of anti-Mormon literature. They are filled with half-truths, things taken out of context and, some, with blatant lies. If you do read some of those things, makes sure you verify with missionaries or other members whether it is something we actually believe. I had an investigator tell me that he had read that Joseph Smith said there were Quakers on the moon and asked me why we would believe such a thing. I had never heard of that before and had to laugh out loud.
And I'm right there with quid that the church is full of imperfect people. No one expects you to be unflawed.
Good Luck.
Posted by sweetbaboo (Member # 8845) on :
pfresh I wanted to point out that in my life whenever I really struggled with something, I have come out of it much stronger and better (even though it is sometimes the pits going through it). I think the same of you here. I just wanted to encourage you to continue questioning and learning until you feel comfortable to either join the church or to close the door on it. What you're going through seems a trying positive experience (if that makes sense).
*Spelling edit
[ October 20, 2006, 09:01 PM: Message edited by: sweetbaboo ]
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
Makes complete sense, sweetbaboo. Thanks. Thanks also to everyone else who offered positive sentiment. I appreciate it. It's one of the main reasons I like Hatrack so much. Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
pfresh, with regards to your hanging out with people who like to drink themselves stupid, I actually have had a similar issue. I'm in the position of being younger even than some of the undergrads who still want to go do kegstands at frat parties, but I really am not into that sort of thing. That doesn't mean I can't spend time with those people though...it just means I don't get to hang out with them as often as their other friends might.
I've told you this before - I think you're a little too quick to judge people and a little too black-and-white. It amuses me that I'm saying this to you, since I've recently realized that I'm pretty black-and-white about people myself. But I do think it's still important for you to be able to distinguish who a person is and what his/her character is in ways beyond simply whether or not they drink or smoke. I think that would be really, really helpful for you socially and emotionally, and it would probably help you if you choose a religion, simply because no one's perfect. Realizing that and accepting it made it a lot easier for me to see what I needed to do spiritually.
-pH
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
I understand what you're saying, pH, but I still think it's a little off (particularly more recently). I understand completely that there's more to a person than they drink or they smoke. As I said, most of my friends drink. This doesn't mean I dislike them and don't want to be friends with them. They're still my friends, and I still enjoy hanging out with them. It's just when they are drinking and being stupid and such, I don't want to be around them. I'd rather be doing something else with my time. The problem arises when the incidence of drinking increases as it seems to be doing. It used to be very rare that they'd drink (just occasionally), and so there were more times when we could hang out and have fun. More recently it seems like the majority of weekends is spent drinking and partying. The time I feel comfortable spending with them is decreasing. I need something to fill this gap.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
But you did say that you're looking for a community that involves people that you can respect. To me, that implies that maybe you don't respect the people you call friends now, which means the next question is, why don't you respect them?
-pH
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
I respect them somewhat. I don't respect them when they're drunk and being stupid. When they're acting foolish/childish (drunk or not), I find it hard to respect them. Maybe I was off in saying respect was super necessary for the people I hang around with, but it's important. If I can't respect the person when I'm around them, I have a hard time making myself stay around them.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I'm not saying that you should spend time with people you don't respect, but I don't think it's possible to split this respect. Either you respect them, or you don't. And if you don't, don't spend time with them. But do consider that if you don't respect them for something they do part of the time, you may not actually be regarding their character.
-pH
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
Haha...the Google ad at the bottom of the page is for a movie titled "The God Who Wasn't There".
There's your sign right there, pfresh. Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
pfresh, do you play RPGs? I was thinking you might try either a pen and paper RPG group on camps and/or a LARP group. Either one would expose you to more people.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
My patience for RPGs has waned as I've aged. Now the only RPGs I play (in any form) are the action-oriented video game ones, where I actually get to do something while fighting and leveling up. No more just selecting options and watching it be performed.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Are you talking about RPGs on the computer?
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
I'm talking about RPGs on the whole. When I was younger and had more patience, I could (and did) tolerate playing pen & paper RPGs as well as more turn-based RPGs (the Final Fantasy series, Chrono Trigger, etc.). Now, I just don't have the patience for it. I get bored if I'm not actively doing something. Don't take this to mean I'd be interested in LARPs, because I'm not.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Well, good luck with your search for people, then.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
I hope you didn't take any sort of offense from anything I said, Storm Saxon. None was meant. I'm sorry if I did offend.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
No problem, you didn't. Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
Glad to hear it. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
What other hobbies do you have? Board gaming can be a pretty good way to meet non-drinkers.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
That's a good idea. Miniatures or collectible card games are a possibility, too.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
I do like board games and video games, and I do like playing those with other people. In fact, when I can get my friends around and not drinking, that's usually what we're doing. As for other hobbies, I'm trying to think of ones with a social component. A lot of stuff I like to do (writing, drawing, some film stuff, some computer stuff) is more stuff that I do on my own.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
What about charity or volunteer work? I always enjoyed Habitat for Humanity, myself.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
All my volunteer experiences (from elementary school age through high school) have had a lot of negative aspects to them. Something about being called "son" and treated like a child doesn't sit well with me.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Believe me, that's not inherent to the volunteer experience.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
pfresh, you really don't seem to WANT to meet people...
-pH
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
It does seem that way.
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
pfresh... your story hit me with a thud. I think we have SO much in common, though many differences as well.
I, like you, am struggling with finding a "church". I was raised Roman Catholic, and still feel about Catholicism the same way many Jews feel about Judiasm. I know that technically it's not the same, but if you grew up where I did, you'd understand how really... it is. I wasn't just baptized Catholic, I was BORN Catholic... more specifically I was born POLISH Catholic.
I started finding problems with it in elementary school. Things the church would say just wouldn't sit well with me, but I was seriously conflicted. I saw logical flaws, but was so thuroughly rebuked when I mentioned them that I bit my tongue most of the time. Then, when I was 11 I had to get confirmed. I made the decision that I WOULD be a good Catholic... during confirmation your sins are wiped clean, just like in baptism, and I was DETERMINED to make a new start to my life. Before we'd even gotten to the end of the ceremony, I'd already had thoughts of being mean to my brothers, and I despaired. I was convinced I was worthless in God's eyes. I couldn't even last a whole fifteen minutes without sinning. Things only got worse as time went on. In Jr. High I was teased, called names, pushed, spit on, and any number of things because I expressed the belief that I thought some type of evolution was likely. At fifteen I left home for college, and my first week there I had a brush with... I know it sounds silly, but a brush with an angel. I was homesick, and scared, and I prayed to God to send me a hug, and... then he did... It was the most wonderful feeling... but after feeling the pure goodness of God, I truly could not reconcile myself to Christianity. Christianity seemed so full of darkness, that I could not see God's willingness for it.
I spent six years like that, praying often, but alone. Hating the very idea of a "Christian" God. Then I heard a son a friend of a friend had written, and somehow it made things sorta "snap" inside my head. I realized that Christianity WAS a valid expression of God's will. I don't know how to explain it really, it just was. I still had problems though. For one thing, I still could not reconcile myself to Catholic doctrine. For another, even though I found a non-denominational church I really liked, I still faced traumatic criticism for my interpretations of history and the bible. Actually, criticism isn't even the right word, crticism implies they listened to my ideas and gave thoughtful critiques to them. It's more just to say that I was looked at like I was a witch!!! During this time, I was still in very faithful contact with God through prayer, and he sustained me.
He also led me to my ex-husband. I still have trouble really understanding this part, because it seems like a place God led me to should have had a fairy tale ending, but... this is one of those things I'm still trying to "rationalize". Still, I'm certain it was God's presence, there was just TOO Much prayer, too much direct leading, and too many good results for anything else. Through listening to God's instructions, I helped save my step daughters life, and conceived my son, Azriel (means help of God). Unfortunately, my ex started acting strange, and eventually left me and took up real witch craft (deamons, and blood spells, and all of it).
During this time I was also a heavy OSC reader. I absolutely ADORED the Homecomming series. I felt, when I was reading it, that there was just SO much truth involved in the things it revealed. I was still looking for a church though, and found a presbyterian one I was semi-happy with, but not truly content. I never even considered mornonism, because I had had two friends convert in college, and most of the propaganda struck me as really hoke. I was facing major challenges, because now that my ex had left, I had no reason to not get my son baptized catholic. In fact, since we were now living back in my home town, there is a termendous reason TO baptize him. It's been two years, and I still haven't. The clock is counting down though, if I want to baptize him as an "infant" I must before he turns five. Even more important, he's eligible for Bible School this summer... I'm raising him in an area where being Catholic is critically important to fitting in. If he's not Catholic, there has to be at least a good reason why. The problem is, I am terrified of doing it. I hate the idea of going to a priest and lying my way through an interview to convince him I want my son baptized for the "right" reasons, and made sick at the thought of standing on the altar in and giving oaths in front of God that I don't believe in. Most of the oaths I can twist and "rationalize" in my mind to mean something other than the intended meaning, but it still feels wrong. On the other hand, I don't know that I can force my son to face his childhood with nothing more than his mother's confusion to protect him from the criticizing taunts of the other children.
Then, around a year ago, I read "Woman of Destiny" now known as "Saints". There is a part in there where Charlie is reading the Book of Mormon and summarizing it. I recognized that it was the SAME story as the Homecomming series, and my stomach started turning in knots. I've got a book of mormon on my bookshelf because my parents were going to throw it away, and I just thought it was WRONG to throw any book away. I started reading it, I really haven't made it more than a couple dozen pages in, but enough to recognize the story. The problem is, the book of Mormon reads like some of the WORST parts of the King James bible. I can understand the words, but I'm not sure I'm really catching the flow of what it's trying to say, so it's been hard for me to get any relevant information from. I've made requests through the official LDS web site to talk to someone, and even showed up at an LDS church one sunday, but no one there even asked my name. I've got alot of doctrinal things that I seem to find conflicting information on and I would have wanted answers to, but every time I pray about it, I get a feeling like God wants me to find out more. Of course, I don't know if he wants me to find out more because he wants me to convert, or so that I can just get the idea out of my head, but it is frustrating when I can't.
Lately though, I just have not had the energy to pursue any of it very much. I'm trying to build up my courage to phone the priest, and so I've been trying to focus on NOT believing anything at the moment that seriously conflicts with Catholic dogma. I know it's a mind game I'm playing with myself, and I don't feel good about it, but... there I am.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
If I didn't want to meet people, I wouldn't be talking about joining a church and everything. It's just there are things I am willing to do/would like to do/am comfortable doing, and there are things I am not.
I'm not going to delete this thread since I know that's frowned upon here. I don't believe I'm going to post in it anymore though. This went from a discussion of religion and such to something else. I'd rather remove myself from it than get further into argument.
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
quote: If I joined the Mormon church, I think it would cause a strong division between me and them. While my mother would probably eventually accept it and tolerate it, I think she would be disappointed and maybe even angry for a period (and I'm not sure how long that period would last).
We have a family friend who was raised Catholic. She married an LDS man and converted. They have been LDS for years and years. He has done the Bishop and Stake President thing, and their family is happier for that.
I was surprised one day at what she said when we visited a family reunion (of sorts) at a park. Everyone there was LDS, happy, well groomed, and got along. There just wasn't that many people there.
F. looked over at us and said, "You know, the church destroys families." Shocked (because she is such a good Mormon) I asked why.
She said in her Catholic family everyone came to outings and gatherings. The ex cons, the drinkers (who brought alcohol), the pious, EVERYONE. The church, she explained, does a really good job of putting together families on paper, but the tolerance of none Mormon family members with different values...is different then Catholicism.
At their party there were family who were too embarrassed to show up, too "flawed," or who were not on speaking terms with each other--about religion.
I have certainly seen that in the Mormon Church. I just don't know how to compare it to non-Mormons. My feeling is if membership makes you happy, go for it. Your family will adjust. I think you should focus on whether church membership will affect how you interact with your family, not how they will interact with you.
If they ridicule you, be patient, bear it, and go on. They are probably worried the religion will affect you adversely. They might think it will interfere with the relationship you have with them. If it doesn't then they should come around.
I have seen enthusiastic new converts who try to convert and fix their family, and it drives a wedge in the relationship.
If they judge you solely on your religion, then the problems are deeper then what religion you belong to.
quote: I find it hard to make a decision that will alter my life drastically when I still have some doubts.
I see two main reasons to join the church. 1: You believe it is true. 2: You believe in the lifestyle.
If you join the church because of 1, then you HAVE to accept Joseph saw God, you have to accept the Book of Mormon is authentic, and you HAVE TO ACCEPT and believe in restored Priesthood Authority. Without priesthood authority restored to Joseph and invested in 15 men, the church falls apart.
If you need to do mental gymnastics to join because of reason 1, then you’re just fooling yourself.
If you join the church because of 2, then there are plenty of good reasons to go to church. It is one of the most effective social networks I can think of. Mormonism is a lifestyle as well as a belief. If you get something out of the lifestyle, then the mental gymnastics can be worth it.
Lots of people go to church, pay their tithing, go to the temple, and never try to ponder or analyze the church too deep. What's the point? They are happy.
If you think you will be too, why not join? It's not like you can't walk away.
quote: I see myself as extremely flawed. I see myself doing things that (even though they are super minor) bad/wrong. I feel like I should be so much better in order to be worthy of a place in the religion.
That should never be a reason to dismiss religion. Religion at its best accepts flawed people, is supportive, and if you are Christian, provides a forgiving Savior that loves and accepts you. It is about love, repentance, family, acceptance, and self-improvement; it is not about meeting a social image.
One of my favorite scriptures talks about how God does not give us the spirit of fear, but of love and a strong mind. That is a standard I try to live my life by.
Good luck on your quest.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Very interersting post, Lem.
quote: At their party there were family who were too embarrassed to show up, too "flawed," or who were not on speaking terms with each other--about religion.
Insert obligatory 'a few bad apples' rebuttal.
Posted by sweetbaboo (Member # 8845) on :
pfresh, I know you said you weren't going to post but maybe you're still reading? Maybe you ought to keep a journal (if you're not already). Sometimes having a record of my feelings makes it easier/clearer to make decisions when looking back and reflecting upon my past experiences. Just a thought. Good luck!
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by pfresh85: If I didn't want to meet people, I wouldn't be talking about joining a church and everything. It's just there are things I am willing to do/would like to do/am comfortable doing, and there are things I am not.
I'm not going to delete this thread since I know that's frowned upon here. I don't believe I'm going to post in it anymore though. This went from a discussion of religion and such to something else. I'd rather remove myself from it than get further into argument.
pfresh, I really don't see any argument going on here. I wasn't trying to be hostile. I'm saying that based on how I (and as I see, at least on eother person) am reading your tone and your responses to people's suggestions here, you really don't want to meet new people. Joining a church as a way too meet people is a generally bad idea, and on top of that it can be a bit of a cop-out. You might end up expecting the church to do the "filtering" for you, and you might expect the church to provide you with friends. That's a recipe for disaster.
-pH
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
quote: You might end up expecting the church to do the "filtering" for you, and you might expect the church to provide you with friends. That's a recipe for disaster.
Why? As I became an adult I realized that there were very few places I could meet people. Work. Chuch. Bar.
I am not a bar man or a church man (anymore). I guess I can get involved in community projects of hobbies that other people share, but I am just so busy.
I could see how church would be a good place to find friends--as long as you are not expecting the church to provide friends.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote: If you join the church because of 2, then there are plenty of good reasons to go to church. It is one of the most effective social networks I can think of. Mormonism is a lifestyle as well as a belief. If you get something out of the lifestyle, then the mental gymnastics can be worth it.
I question the integrity of this choice.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
quote:Originally posted by lem: As I became an adult I realized that there were very few places I could meet people. Work. Chuch. Bar.
Classes, concerts, clubs, volunteering, and heck, even online.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Online? That's crazy talk.
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
quote:I question the integrity of this choice.
I question it too; however, I have witnessed (and talked with) many people don't have a testimony but still get satisfaction in the church.
Some are in it for family, some for business and community standing (I am in Utah!), some are in it for their spouse, some are in it to find a spouse. They claim to be happy, they look happy, and so I won't question their reasons.
Who is anyone to judge their integrity? If it works for them, it works. Religion is personal.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
My real point is that pfresh seems to reject any way of meeting friends that is not related to the church, which to me means he isn't willing to put that much effort into it. After all, churches generally welcome new people and put a lot of work into trying to make them feel comfortable, which takes a great deal of the burden of social interaction or the search for friends off his shoulders. To me, it also means that his motivations for interest in the church are very heavily influenced by his desire for friends, which absolutely seems to me to have serious disaster potential.
I'm not trying to sound harsh, and I'm sorry if it's coming across that way. I just worry that he's going to join the church with the wrong motivations and end up just as discouraged and possibly close himself down to what could be a really good faith-type move for him.
-pH
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote: I have witnessed (and talked with) many people don't have a testimony but still get satisfaction in the church.
I think that people who are raised Mormon have that as the "default truth" so to say. Even if they don't have much of a testimony of it, it's still something they more or less are on board with. I think this is very different from converting to a religion without believing in it.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
I've found the best way to meet new people is do things you enjoy doing. Then you tend to meet people with similar interests. Whatever it is you like to do, there are groups out there who do it too. Check web pages for your local area, Craigslist, general interest websites, the phone book. Great way to get out, be active, do something fun, and meet cool people with whom you have something to talk about.
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
Iem,
I just wanted to chime in and say that I appreciate the courtesy that you extend to the LDS church in every discussion I've seen that you participate in about it. I know you are a former member, and have both doctrinal and social differences with the church, but your good attitude and polite phrasing make worlds of difference in how well your points are taken.
Posted by sweetbaboo (Member # 8845) on :
I agree BQT, earlier today I was trying to think of a way to say what you just said so well.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
)![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
). I also find that the specific communities/traditions I look into aren't a perfect match, but I suspect nothing will be, and I don't want to be in a religion of one, or start my own, so I look for the tradition that is least inconsistent with my beliefs. It sounds like you're a lot closer than I am. ![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)