Why must I have a white supremacist for a sister-in-law? Will had no idea at all that she feels this way. And she has three little kids, too - I think it's so sad that they'll be raised to believe that they're superior to others because of the color of their skin. It really, deeply saddens me to think of my cute little nieces and nephew being indoctrinated into hate. Uuugh.
Anyway. In a couple of weeks, I'll be going to Big Bear with Will to meet his family. I'll feel so awkward, meeting this woman and having to accept her as family when I so strongly disagree with her - uh, politics, I suppose you could say.
Has anybody else had any experiences like this? Do you have any advice on how to handle this?
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Dang these people need to GET WITH THE PROGRAM! White supremacy is sooooooooooo 1950s, or 1850s. It's uncool. It's ridiculous. Hopefully she'll figure that out sooner or later. And her children will too. But what can one do besides not bring it up. Or maybe it does need to be brought up to break her out of that old outmoded anti-everyone who isn't white crap. Are other people in his family like that? Is her husband like that?
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
And her site is so ugly, too, and the music... Ugh.
My parents are racist/supremicist. I firmly reject their attitudes.
I have no advice. Sorry.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
*sigh* My brother listens to that music, and says all kinds of crap (although since rejoining actual normal human society, he's learning fast to keep his comments to himself.) I really think he's doing it to see how much he can tick us off. *sigh*
I think he's going to outgrow it. At least he keeps it to himself around my kids, as I've asked him to.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I don't think that band is racist, but their music is rather... well.... Don't these racist realize they have to leave with all manners of people? Most of which not only are groups they dislike, but are people who just don't get why they have to feel that way about different people.
Posted by Baron Samedi (Member # 9175) on :
I thought this was going to be your idea for a wacky new sitcom.
Posted by Baron Samedi (Member # 9175) on :
If this is the first time you're going to meet her, may I suggest booking about 15 hours in the tanning salon before you go?
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Incidentally, why is it worse to have white pride than black pride? Gay pride? Hispanic pride?
(Because, silly, groups touting white pride logos are classically linked not with good-feelings about one's ancestors, but ill-will toward people not so similarly descended)
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
Wow, what a surprise, a white supremacist bartender... from Big Bear?
\my Mexican dad moved up there for a couple years \\my brother attended her high school \\\it's like the South, but without black people
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
And Scott, I know you answered your own question, but I think you missed the point. I've yet to hear anyone criticize, say, "Irish pride" or "Kiwi pride." "White power" connotes, as you said, intolerance of other races. "Irish pride" reflects a pride in your cultural heritage. I don't think celebrating "white culture" is racist, but since there is no white culture, I don't think it's unreasonable to consider a call for white power to probably connote racism.
Of course, there are also smarter things to be proud of. And as your race doesn't affect your day-to-day living as it would a black man's, I'd be the first to laugh if you started insisting on finding other Irish people and declaring you're somehow brothers and sisters because your distant ancestors are from the same geographic area. Black people are united by a common distaste for them from white employers, white police, white juries, white media -- they are brothers under fire, especially as regards the justice system. They have cause to band together, if only for their shared understanding of the hostility found from other races. If there's no distinct "Somali pride" or "Congian pride," that reflects how little anyone cares to understand and discriminate between different black cultures -- vastly different from the intimate distinctions we all understand between, say, the Germans and the British. Even black people have no reason to resort to distinct countries, since they have neither any education about different African countries, nor any lingering African traditions to identify with.
With Latinos, I think it's a different case altogether. There's a great deal of discrimination between different Latin countries -- call a touchy Cuban a Mexican, and you're in for a tongue-lashing. If anything, I think "Latin pride" is a call to break down cultural barriers, not erect them. Anything that gives every Central and South American country a common ground works to unite, not divide.
Posted by Celaeno (Member # 8562) on :
Out of curiosity, I googled "white pride world wide" and came across their discussion board. (edit: I have removed the link, but it was the first hit from a google search.)
Terrifying.
[ October 15, 2006, 05:36 AM: Message edited by: Celaeno ]
Posted by stacey (Member # 3661) on :
Ugh, I think you should remove the link from the forum, those kind of sites are more offensive to me than any porn site I have ever seen. It is just giving them more google space/publicity than they deserve.
Please?
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
What is there to be proud of if you're white?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Syn, by "that music", I meant Aryan race music and crap. I didn't even go to the link.
Remember our discussion of Prussian Blue? Yeah, he thinks those little girls are "great."
Edit 'cause I was half asleep when I posted.
[ October 15, 2006, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: ketchupqueen ]
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:And Scott, I know you answered your own question, but I think you missed the point. I've yet to hear anyone criticize, say, "Irish pride" or "Kiwi pride." "White power" connotes, as you said, intolerance of other races. "Irish pride" reflects a pride in your cultural heritage. I don't think celebrating "white culture" is racist, but since there is no white culture, I don't think it's unreasonable to consider a call for white power to probably connote racism.
So what about black pride, or asian pride? There's at least as much white culture as there is black or asian culture - since all the labels connote is a collection of ethnicities that may or may not share cultural traits, depending on who you ask.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
It's kind of funny. I was seriously trying to figure out what you were talking about for like 3 minutes before I noticed the background. Apparently at some point I managed to instinctively tune out the often annoying backgrounds in myspace pages.
Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
quote: I don't think celebrating "white culture" is racist, but since there is no white culture, I don't think it's unreasonable to consider a call for white power to probably connote racism.
I just signed up for Google News alerts for the term "white culture." Now, if there *is* a white culture, I'll be on the cutting edge of discovering it.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lalo: Wow, what a surprise, a white supremacist bartender... from Big Bear?
I was going to post something similar. I've been to Big Bear. It doesn't really surprise me that someone growing up there might come out of the process with a certain take on the world.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac:
quote:And Scott, I know you answered your own question, but I think you missed the point. I've yet to hear anyone criticize, say, "Irish pride" or "Kiwi pride." "White power" connotes, as you said, intolerance of other races. "Irish pride" reflects a pride in your cultural heritage. I don't think celebrating "white culture" is racist, but since there is no white culture, I don't think it's unreasonable to consider a call for white power to probably connote racism.
So what about black pride, or asian pride? There's at least as much white culture as there is black or asian culture - since all the labels connote is a collection of ethnicities that may or may not share cultural traits, depending on who you ask.
But you both ignore the obvious- the names involved in white supremacy movements are chosen to be offered this way intentionally. The real aims of these groups are to opress people and encourage ignorance, racism and a frenzied kind of collective madness. The fact that they name themselves "white power movements," and publicly present their goals as being aimed at the betterment of "White culture," that does not change what these groups really do- which is directed not at improvement or the definition of one's own culture in itself, but the undermining and vilification of another.
Effectively the name means nothing about the organization- like the "ministry of peace" which is concerned with war, or the "ministry of truth," which is concerned with diseminating lies. The title in itself is evidence of the manipulation of the groups members, who doubtless tell themselves and eacho ther that they participate in these movements for the benefit of their children and country. Just because they believe they do, does not mean that they DO, but that's the really crazy thing about these movements: nobody in them really knows or tells or understands what is really going on. Easy for me to say, because I think white supremacists are generally delusional, or they can't actually understand the issues they adress, or have been so thoroughly manipulated that they have become unable to think critically.
edit: It ocurrs to me that I am involved personally in groups which fervently promote the artifacts and history, as well as the beauty of things which come from "white culture." They're Early, Renaissance, and contemporary western music performing groups. Granted, not all of the material we promote is "white" in origin, but alot of it most decidedly is, and we present it because we wish to preserve its beauty as representative of bygone eras in music, as well as representative of cultural heritage all Americans now share. This isn't promotion of material BECAUSE it is by white people, but because it is great music. The idea that you start with the assumption that "whiteness" is the key ingredient in greatness, THEN try and justify your conclusions about the world just seems funny.
Can I say that late Renaissance theatre helps prove that British culture of that period was remarkable and exceptional in some ways? Yes. Can I say that British culture is better, categorically, than other cultures and offer Shakespeare as my reason why? It would be obviously stupid to do so, because you don't start an exploration with the conclusion already in mind. There is no evidence in history that such a way of thinking has ever allowed a civilization to endure.
[ October 15, 2006, 05:44 AM: Message edited by: Orincoro ]
Posted by Celaeno (Member # 8562) on :
I am 100% with Orincoro on this point. These groups, specifically this one, are NOT about pride in cultural heritage. They're not even just about thinking their race is better than everyone else's one. It goes so much further than that. They actively cultivate hate. Did anyone else check out the forum? It's absolutely appalling. I shook as I read it.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac:
quote:And Scott, I know you answered your own question, but I think you missed the point. I've yet to hear anyone criticize, say, "Irish pride" or "Kiwi pride." "White power" connotes, as you said, intolerance of other races. "Irish pride" reflects a pride in your cultural heritage. I don't think celebrating "white culture" is racist, but since there is no white culture, I don't think it's unreasonable to consider a call for white power to probably connote racism.
So what about black pride, or asian pride? There's at least as much white culture as there is black or asian culture - since all the labels connote is a collection of ethnicities that may or may not share cultural traits, depending on who you ask.
That's exactly my point. "White pride" isn't celebrating any particular culture -- as opposed to "Irish pride," which does and is not considered racist -- but instead focuses pride in a single ethnic trait. Hence, racism.
Contrast this with "black pride," which (in my experience) is generally a label applied to African-Americans, who have few if any remaining links to their foreign heritage. It applies to culture, not race -- African-American culture specifically. I suppose you can argue there's a European-American culture that "white pride" can celebrate, but whitey generally gets to call that specific culture "American."
I'm not saying there isn't a black power movement, though I doubt there's a shadow of what it was a couple decades ago. But the term just doesn't connote Black Panthers with the same ease "white pride" brings up the KKK. Maybe that's because white people have distinctive cultures they can fall back on for identity, so white pride is understood as a rallying cry for bigots. Maybe white people don't need to call themselves German or Norwegian because they already understand themselves as unspecified Americans. But I haven't seen any overwhelming race supremacy for any minorities in the US -- have you? Contrast whatever pride you've seen from minorities to the media's incredible flood of teary-eyed masturbation to the American flag, particularly over the course of these past five years, and I think that'll help distinguish between black pride and American self-worship.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Orincoro,
I thought your post was post on except for the last sentence. Dismissing people in these movements as delusional or manipulated is, I think, missing a point that could be very important. I would rather we take the time to understand what would drive someone to the (for them) logical conclusion that they are in danger of becoming an oppressed minority, and join one of these groups in the first place.
I think it's a similar phenomenon to that filling the ranks of terrorist organizations the world over and I feel like if we understood the phenomenon better we could better cope with it, and make the option less attractive.
I've met a lot of intelligent racists in my time -- too many to just asssume that delusions or manipulation are the root cause of the problem.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
quote:Contrast whatever pride you've seen from minorities to the media's incredible flood of teary-eyed masturbation to the American flag, particularly over the course of these past five years, and I think that'll help distinguish between black pride and American self-worship.
Okay, it could just be that it's about 10 to 5 in the morning, but that sentence made absolutely no sense to me, and contains one of the weirdest images I've ever encountered.
I don't suppose you'd care to shed some light on it, would you?
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
I really like flags.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
'Whitey' has certainly integrated into the United States better than, say, 'darkie' (wait, I suppose the first characterization is racist, but the second ain't, right?)...but this is by no means an across-the-board truth.
There are a whole lot of poor, disenfranchised (not legally, not specifically, but in the sense that they don't really have much power in the political system) white people in the United States as well. A smaller proportion, than, say, African-Americans or Latinos, but not an insignifigant one either.
--------------
I dislike all "culture/ethnicity-pride' sentiments as a rule. Why? Because in my experience, it's difficult to be proud of something without thinking that thing is better than most other, otherwise similar things. I couldn't tell you the last time, if ever, I met someone who was proud of something without thinking that thing was better than its surroundings.
It may not be something believers in -pride movements are conciously aware of, but that doesn't make it untrue either. What's to be proud of? You didn't have a choice in your ethnicity. It's not as though you worked hard (or worked at all) to achieve it. At the moment of attainment, you had sacrificed nothing to get it. It's something that happened to you. That's like being proud that it's a sunny day. Just as foolish as declaring, "Man, Earth is better than every other planet in the universe because it's a sunny day today!" or, "Earth is tougher than any other planet in the universe because we have some awesome lightning storms!"
Maybe the reasons 'white power' is so often associated (correctly) with white supremacy and racism from whites is because, in the United States, whites are the overwhelming majority and have the numbers and the power to do the things -pride movements lead to, whereas other minorities don't.
If you were a white man living in, say, Thailand or the PRC or Mexico or Greece, and the dominant majority there were chanting, "Thai power!" you might feel uncomfortable too. Especially if it had been going on, historically, for hundreds of years up until only recently when it became generally taboo.
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
Libbie, it's amazing how blind some people can be. A couple Thanksgivings ago, we were at my boyfriend's dad's and his aunt was talking about wanting red haired grandchildren. Apparently, you have to get the genes from both parents. So her older son cracks a joke about asking Shanequa if she's got any red heads in the family.
Let's just say the conversation that followed from the rest of the family was awkward at best.
Meanwhile, Chet's part-black cousin is sitting there looking like she wants the ground to open up and swallow her. Oh, but she's not really black. She's hispanic. O_o I'm so glad Chet outgrew that little fantasy.
In the end, what can you really do with them? They've got black right in the family, and they refuse to see it. I doubt anything we said would have made a difference.
So go be pleasant and pray the subject doesn't come up. I wouldn't sacrifice my principles if it did, but I might change the subject quickly. If they press the issue, all you can really do is leave the room. Good luck!
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
quote:I've met a lot of intelligent racists in my time -- too many to just asssume that delusions or manipulation are the root cause of the problem.
My father is one of them - extremely intelligent and as racist as they get. There is no way he was racist by manipulation - he was always in control, the one who manipulated everyone else. He was always in charge. Deluded? Possibly, depending on how you define deluded. I think it makes more sense to say that he had an abundance of anger and hate and directed it at whoever stood in his way of what he wanted. Perhaps. I'm not entirely sure - I haven't spoken to him in more than a decade and a half - so I'd have to think about it further, and even then I'm not entirely sure what I'd come up with. I do know that he was also angry/hateful/violent towards a lot of white people, too, so, still not sure.
Orincoro, I agree with the others - your post was excellent. Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
That is one of the ickiest Myspace pages I've ever seen(/heard).
And yeah, everything Lalo said. People have black pride because a) prejudice against them and b) most blacks here in America DON'T HAVE ANOTHER CULTURE TO IDENTIFY WITH. Their ancestors were ripped from their homeland to be slaves, with no way to preserve the customs and day-to-day life they knew from wherever they had come from. They started creating the black culture there, mostly through song. I don't see any reason whites needed to come together to make their own culture.
Don't get me wrong, I'm very into the idea of cultural pride. I feel a certain disconnect from many parts of my heritage that I really wish wasn't there (because of refugee relatives as well as disowned relatives), because I am so fascinated by and drawn to different aspects of these cultures.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:most blacks here in America DON'T HAVE ANOTHER CULTURE TO IDENTIFY WITH. Their ancestors were ripped from their homeland to be slaves, with no way to preserve the customs and day-to-day life they knew from wherever they had come from. They started creating the black culture there, mostly through song
This actually leads to a lot of tension between the mainstream of African-Americans and African immigrants. There was a Morning Edition story on problems in NYC caused by this disconnect, sometime in the last year or so.
Posted by Azile (Member # 2312) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: I dislike all "culture/ethnicity-pride' sentiments as a rule. Why? Because in my experience, it's difficult to be proud of something without thinking that thing is better than most other, otherwise similar things. I couldn't tell you the last time, if ever, I met someone who was proud of something without thinking that thing was better than its surroundings.
It may not be something believers in -pride movements are conciously aware of, but that doesn't make it untrue either. What's to be proud of? You didn't have a choice in your ethnicity. It's not as though you worked hard (or worked at all) to achieve it. At the moment of attainment, you had sacrificed nothing to get it. It's something that happened to you. [/QB]
Pride has a number of definitions and while one meaning of pride does have an implication of superiority, I think the alternative definition, “having or showing self-respect or self-esteem” is better suited for most -pride movements.
Take Gay Pride for example. People who live in a culture where being different is largely frowned upon are surrounded by the image that being gay is something wrong. By saying that you are proud of being gay, is not saying, “Thank god I’m not straight!” It’s respecting yourself and saying that, “I might not be straight, but I don’t mind who I am. I am me. I am gay. There‘s nothing shameful about that fact.”
Sure, the fact that a person is gay, is not something they have control over. Like ethnicity, it’s pure genetics. In the literal sense, they sacrificed nothing to be gay. It is something that just happened to them. That’s why it’s important for a gay man to assert that he is proud because there’s nothing productive about allowing society to tell him that being a homosexual is wrong. By asserting that he is proud, he is repudiating the notion that being gay is something negative or remotely shameful.
Having “White” Pride on the other hand, is the same as having someone say that they have Straight Pride. There’s a whole different set of connotations.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:Pride has a number of definitions and while one meaning of pride does have an implication of superiority, I think the alternative definition, “having or showing self-respect or self-esteem” is better suited for most -pride movements.
This perception hinges largely on the idea that there isn't anything wrong with -pride movements in the first place. It's not a very persuasive statement, if one doesn't buy into your original premise.
quote:By saying that you are proud of being gay, is not saying, “Thank god I’m not straight!”
Sure, not for everyone. I did not say that every member of a -pride movement feels superior to other groups presently. I'm suggesting that if you make a minority -pride move the minority, leave it that way for many generations...well then, things start to change. I'm suggesting it's not some magical property of white-pride movements, I'm suggesting it's a property of majority-pride movements.
And certainly, there are homosexuals who do feel like, "Thank God I'm not straight!" in a superior way, they get lots of press. Just like the radicals of other movements.
quote:Sure, the fact that a person is gay, is not something they have control over. Like ethnicity, it’s pure genetics. In the literal sense, they sacrificed nothing to be gay. It is something that just happened to them. That’s why it’s important for a gay man to assert that he is proud because there’s nothing productive about allowing society to tell him that being a homosexual is wrong. By asserting that he is proud, he is repudiating the notion that being gay is something negative or remotely shameful.
I'm very much not interested in turning this debate into an issue of homosexuality, so I'll just point out that you've made several statements of fact which are not, in fact, supported by known facts.
quote:Having “White” Pride on the other hand, is the same as having someone say that they have Straight Pride. There’s a whole different set of connotations.
If one can be Gay-Proud, or African-American-Proud, or Latino-Proud, without having those sets of connotations, I fail to see any reason why a single white person couldn't be a member 'White-Proud' without having those connotations, either.
It's just deeply unpopular to is all, really. Because we can look back at United States history and point to the harmful effects. Is this some magical property of being white and proud? Or is it a harmful side-effect of pride-movements?
In my opinion, it's one or the other.
Posted by PUNJABEE (Member # 7359) on :
lol@ the 'white supremacist' term. More like "we live in a trailer park".
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I have trouble making a unified group of 'white people' of which I can summon a feeling of 'pride'. To me, 'white people' are simply not a unified force and have nothing that conjoins them to be proud of. Except, like, being pale.
Yay! I have toenails! Toenail pride!
Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: Are other people in his family like that? Is her husband like that?
As far as either of us know, no, nobody else in the family is like that. I think her boyfriend is - there's a picture on her Myspace page of "my honey," and it's a guy with swastikas tattooed on his chest. lovely. I know she got divorced last year, so I'm assuming the swastika guy is her new boyfriend or a new husband. I don't think her previous husband was this way.
She's a really nice person (aside from apparently hating everybody who's not white and a "Christian," if you can call white supremacists Christians). I've chatted with her on the phone before. It just baffles me that somebody who seems so nice and caring could think this way.
I'm definitely not going to bring it up, but if it happens to come up, I'm not sure I can stop myself from telling her that I think it's deplorable.
This will be SUCH A FUN VACATION. Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
quote:Originally posted by Baron Samedi: I thought this was going to be your idea for a wacky new sitcom.
Hmmm...that has potential.
Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
quote:Originally posted by Baron Samedi: If this is the first time you're going to meet her, may I suggest booking about 15 hours in the tanning salon before you go?
You know, if I could, I would. Sadly, my skin doesn't tan - it just burns horribly and then leaves me with that much greater chance of developing melanoma.
But maybe I can tell her I'm a Jew. Tee hee!!
Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: Incidentally, why is it worse to have white pride than black pride? Gay pride? Hispanic pride?
(Because, silly, groups touting white pride logos are classically linked not with good-feelings about one's ancestors, but ill-will toward people not so similarly descended)
Yeah, actually, I have no problem with people having pride in their race. I have a lot of pride in my ancestors. They've done some pretty cool things. I don't think it's particularly SPECIAL that I'm white, but I'm not ashamed, or anything, and I like learning about the European cultures I'm descended from.
It's the "supremacist" part I have a problem with. When you start labeling yourself "supreme," then you've crossed the line from pride to craziness. Sure, the logos on her site only say "White Pride," but the swastikas tattooed on her boyfriend speak volumes about how she REALLY feels.
Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lalo: Wow, what a surprise, a white supremacist bartender... from Big Bear?
\my Mexican dad moved up there for a couple years \\my brother attended her high school \\\it's like the South, but without black people
That's essentially what my husband says. It's just one big, crazy bunch of hicks with a few tourists and ski enthusiasts seasonally. Needless to say, he's really glad he escaped. I am, too. I don't think his family knows we're atheists. We'll probably have to keep that to ourselves, or Swastika Boy might come over and try to beat us up.
And I think that's the only high school in Big Bear.
Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz:
quote:Originally posted by Lalo: Wow, what a surprise, a white supremacist bartender... from Big Bear?
I was going to post something similar. I've been to Big Bear. It doesn't really surprise me that someone growing up there might come out of the process with a certain take on the world.
I guess I'm not familiar enough with Big Bear (yet) to realize how different it is there. I grew up in rural Idaho, where this kind of thing is fairly common, but my family itself wasn't racist (comparatively...although my grandpa did start to worry when my eight-year-old sister said she wanted to marry Mr. T. My mom told him to get over it, though, so no harm done). My husband doesn't have a discriminatory molecule in his body. This woman is the next-oldest in the brood of ten (my husband being the oldest). He spent almost as much time in Big Bear as she did, and with the same upbringing.
Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
quote:Originally posted by Celaeno: I am 100% with Orincoro on this point. These groups, specifically this one, are NOT about pride in cultural heritage. They're not even just about thinking their race is better than everyone else's one. It goes so much further than that. They actively cultivate hate. Did anyone else check out the forum? It's absolutely appalling. I shook as I read it.
I'm not going to read it. If I do, I know I won't be able to keep a civil tongue in my head when we're there for our visit. I'm just going to have to put on blinders on this one and stuff my fingers in my ears and go, "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU." It makes me sad to do that, but I don't want to cause problems when Will hasn't seen any of his family members since 1999.
I can't believe my nieces and nephew are being raised to think this kind of thing is appropriate. It makes me unspeakably angry. Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh:
If you were a white man living in, say, Thailand or the PRC or Mexico or Greece, and the dominant majority there were chanting, "Thai power!" you might feel uncomfortable too. Especially if it had been going on, historically, for hundreds of years up until only recently when it became generally taboo.
That brings up an interesting point. I've read several articles projecting that in however many decades, white people will be the minority in the USA, and Latinos will be the majority. I wonder, will it become more socially acceptable then for "white pride" movements to exist? Or will they still be viewed as racist movements, because of their history?
It's basically just a rhetorical question, so please feel free to disregard it, but it is interesting to think about.
Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
quote:Originally posted by AvidReader:
So go be pleasant and pray the subject doesn't come up. I wouldn't sacrifice my principles if it did, but I might change the subject quickly. If they press the issue, all you can really do is leave the room. Good luck!
Thanks, Avid. I think that's exactly what I"ll do. Luckily, we won't be staying with them, so if I need to, I can feign illness and escape to our hotel.
Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee:
quote:most blacks here in America DON'T HAVE ANOTHER CULTURE TO IDENTIFY WITH. Their ancestors were ripped from their homeland to be slaves, with no way to preserve the customs and day-to-day life they knew from wherever they had come from. They started creating the black culture there, mostly through song
This actually leads to a lot of tension between the mainstream of African-Americans and African immigrants. There was a Morning Edition story on problems in NYC caused by this disconnect, sometime in the last year or so.
Yes - in the Seattle area, there are a lot of Somalian immigrants, and they regularly are targeted by black American gangs. Or just black American teens who aren't affiliated with any gang. It's quite a problem in this area.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Ugly myspace pages and people writing in all caps. Really, what can be done to end this plague upon the land?
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Rakeesh, I think the difference is that if you belong to a group that is widely hated, pride in your group is a way to counteract the hate that you will encounter elsewhere in the mainstream culture. Members of the majority need no such force. I think anti-latino sentiment in the United States is at a high point right now, if not for all time, at least for the past forty or so years. I am proud to be a latino as a way of asserting that those who say I should be ashamed of it are wrong. I don't think latinos are superior to Americans--so if you don't think I'm lying or deluded, you can change your statistic. I am proud of the United States, I listen to country and folk music, I speak English better than most "pure" Americans.
I think I have an interesting perspective on it. I am latino and white. (People who think "hispanic" is a race are misinformed.) I feel proud of my latino origins, but it does not occur to me to feel pride in my whiteness. But then, it's not under attack. There are anti-white racists out there, sure, but they are laughably impotent.
Posted by Azile (Member # 2312) on :
quote:I'm very much not interested in turning this debate into an issue of homosexuality, so I'll just point out that you've made several statements of fact which are not, in fact, supported by known facts.
I'm aware a lot of what I said on homosexuality is unsubstantiated and arguable. What I should have written was that assuming that homosexuality was genetic-- I have no clue whether it is or it isn't. It was lazy argument on my part.
When I used homosexuality as an example, it was really meant to be a generic term that could be interchangable with ethnicity or anything different or frequently viewed whether consciously or unconsciously as inferior.
But I still do believe that there's a difference between a White Pride movement and a Black Pride Movement. A Black Pride movement generally (not in the case with everyone, because like you said, there are extremists) serves to empower. It's like saying that they may not be white, but they think being Black is okay. They are proud to be Black and by implication, not ashamed.
As Orinico said, if the situations were reversed, if we were in a different country, or if the world worked differently, I can see the White Pride Movement having different connotations.
Anyways, I have midterms to cram for. Sorry if I didn't address everything, Rakeesh. I can see what you mean about being proud and implying superiority, but I just don't think that it is always the case with everyone or every movement.
[ October 15, 2006, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: Azile ]
Posted by crescentsss (Member # 9494) on :
quote:Originally posted by Celaeno: Out of curiosity, I googled "white pride world wide" and came across their discussion board. (edit: I have removed the link, but it was the first hit from a google search.)
Terrifying.
I went to the link - and as I'm Jewish, the threads about "So what's the problem with Jews" caught my eye, and that's mainly what i read... I'm still trying to work out my reaction to it. Oddly enough, it's not fear... it's more like frustration, i think, that these beliefs still exist. I'm having trouble expressing myself right now... maybe i'll come back later and post again. sorry Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
Will wanted me to bring a portfolio with me to show them my wedding photos. Do you think I should leave these ones in the portfolio, or take them out?
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: There are anti-white racists out there, sure, but they are laughably impotent.
I used to take Kung Fu and Tai Chi from a man who had moved to America from China in the early '70s. After he moved here, he married a white American woman and had a family. He had a son who was my age, and I got to know him as we'd practice together.
This guy was in his early '20s, half European and half Chinese. He spoke fluent Mandarin. He'd practiced traditional Shaolin Kung Fu and Tai Chi every day for nearly two decades, and had achieved the rank of master in each. He was also a fully trained and licensed doctor of acupuncture and Chinese herbal medicine.
He began dating a girl from China while I knew him. Eventually things got somewhat serious, so he flew to China to meet her family. He came back about a month later. When I asked him how things had gone, he said he wasn't dating the girl any more. Her parents had forced her to stop seeing him, because he "wasn't Chinese enough."
There are anti-white racists out there, and I think they can be pretty potent. We've still got some inbred nutjobs in our country, and there's more work to be done, but on the whole I'm pretty damn proud of how tolerant white Americans are.
(does that count as white pride?)
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
BS, clearly I was referring to within our own, majority-white culture. And I'm sure things like that happen here too, within minority enclaves. But do you seriously mean to suggest that white Americans face as much prejudice and discrimination within the United States as latinos, blacks, and Asians do? If so, then we will have to simply agree to disagree.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:But maybe I can tell her I'm a Jew. Tee hee!!
Or a Mormon, that might do it, too.
Or a Jew who converted to Mormonism.
I love the pictures.
Because of his lovely views, my sister did not tell my brother when she got married, but left it to me to break it to him. *sigh*
I also don't send him pictures of my sister-in-law and her husband and daughter. I was showing pictures of Jaden once and he said such nasty stuff I wanted to slap him. Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
I have some family members who say racist things, though they would deny they are racist. Things like "Things were great in this neighborhood until the blacks and Mexicans moved in from Philly with their drugs". I keep calling them on it but I don't expect for them ever to change. It sucks, huh? I'm sorry.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:Originally posted by romanylass: I have some family members who say racist things, though they would deny they are racist. Things like "Things were great in this neighborhood until the blacks and Mexicans moved in from Philly with their drugs". I keep calling them on it but I don't expect for them ever to change. It sucks, huh? I'm sorry.
Speaking as a resident of Philly, that is really insulting. We white people have just as much drugs as the blacks and Mexicans.
Just wanted to keep that straight. Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
quote:Originally posted by Baron Samedi: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Icarus: [qb] There are anti-white racists out there, sure, but they are laughably impotent.
Edit: I saw your post to Baron, Icarus, so I get your meaning.
Maybe laughably impotent on a grand, over-reaching societal scale, but they can still do plenty of damage. I once worked in an office in which I was the only white person. I believe the only way I got the job was because they were so desperate to find somebody who could do it right then, and I was the only qualified applicant. I was fired after about six weeks, for no really good reason. I asked a friend if she knew why I was let go, and she said that the manager had told her, "I don't want no stuck-up, rich-b**** white girls in my office."
Pretty funny, considering I'd made $13,000 the year before (not NEARLY enough to survive on alone in Seattle).
So, there are anti-white racists out there, of course, and while they probably aren't likely to start demonstrating or anything like that, they still hurt people with their hatred.
Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
quote:But maybe I can tell her I'm a Jew. Tee hee!!
Or a Mormon, that might do it, too.
Or a Jew who converted to Mormonism.
I love the pictures.
Because of his lovely views, my sister did not tell my brother when she got married, but left it to me to break it to him. *sigh*
I also don't send him pictures of my sister-in-law and her husband and daughter. I was showing pictures of Jaden once and he said such nasty stuff I wanted to slap him.
OOH, THAT WOULD MAKE ME SO MAD! Man, one of my own family members saying stuff like that - no way would I hold back that slap.
Your husband's cute! Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Not my husband, my sister's husband on that page.
Although my husband is cute. And so is my sister's husband.
And yeah, I told him he needed to leave or he was gonna get it when he was saying crap about my niece. (She's pretty cute, too.)
He is another one who claims he's not racist but "just thinks that people should stick to their own races." And then when I confronted him with the studies on genetic differences in race, etc., he got really agitated and said even more stupid stuff. Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I'm not denying that they do harm to individuals, but I stand by my statement that the sum total of discrimination faced by whites in this country is less than that faced by any other people. Honestly, there isn't really a comparison.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: Orincoro,
I thought your post was post on except for the last sentence. Dismissing people in these movements as delusional or manipulated is, I think, missing a point that could be very important. I would rather we take the time to understand what would drive someone to the (for them) logical conclusion that they are in danger of becoming an oppressed minority, and join one of these groups in the first place.
I think it's a similar phenomenon to that filling the ranks of terrorist organizations the world over and I feel like if we understood the phenomenon better we could better cope with it, and make the option less attractive.
I've met a lot of intelligent racists in my time -- too many to just asssume that delusions or manipulation are the root cause of the problem.
Very smart people are capable of deluding and manipulating themselves though, I think. The manipulation of an entire argument, an entire worldview and a group of people seems to be what is keeping these movements from dying away. There is something attractive in their thinking, and even smart people (especially smart people) are capable of the mental acrobatics needed to contain such obviously silly conclusions about the world and one'sself. I would say the most opressed group in this is now the group itself, with no actuall power or basis for existance except hate and fear, the process feeds on itself.
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
Race is always such a touchy thing. How often can you look at a situation and know for sure that race is the deciding factor?
When Ronan got pulled over and claimed DWB he was speeding in the middle of the night leaving the home of a known drug dealer. Somehow, I doubt his race was important to the cops. When some friends of mine driving badly were pulled over and the cop ignored the driver to check the ID of the black guy in the back seat, that was pretty clearly racism. Most situations aren't so cut and dry.
I would say most anti-white racism can't amount to much since not many minorites are in positions of power over whites. We've got one black gal in our office I'd hate to see in charge. She's angry at every white person who's been hired for taking over a black department. News flash, honey, I don't run HR. I just work here. Fortunately for us, our boss is white and she can't do anything about her angst.
I would even go so far as to argue that the bulk of white America is at least aware that other people look down on racism, whatever their own views. I don't know that the same stigma exists for other races. White folk don't suffer on the whole, but when our numbers start to slip, I wonder how tolerant everyone else will be who've preached tolerance for so long.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I think you're fortunate your boss is fair, not that your boss is white.
Posted by Samarkand (Member # 8379) on :
Oooh, kq, what a beautiful wedding dress and couple! And cake and little girl. Yay!
Here's my racist comment - I think mixed race people are sometimes some of the most beautiful and hottest. Like in the movie . . .Barbershop? I think? . . . with the black actor with blue eyes . . . wow. Just wow. Or all those people running around with perfect perma-tans who never have to go out in the sun to keep them . . . darn them all!
I think lumping people together based on an outward characteristic is bad news. And something so obvious as skin color . . . I mean, come on. At least when it's religious or political prosecution the people you're getting all tetchy about have chosen to follow a certain faith, or creed, or set of values - they weren't just, well BORN.
Not that you can't be born into a religion of political view - but you can walk away from it too, which is no so much an option with skin. Unless your name is Michael Jackson.
Posted by stacey (Member # 3661) on :
quote:I've met a lot of intelligent racists in my time -- too many to just asssume that delusions or manipulation are the root cause of the problem.
I don't think that I would really consider a racist "intelligent". Not by my standards anyway. I'm not saying that every intelligent person has to be a decent human being, but the reasoning behind being racist is something that any intelligent person should be able to see is flawed.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
okay...how about otherwise intelligent.
What I meant was that if you got to talk about any other subject (ones not touching on a few issues), you wouldn't right them off as disgruntled, low-earning-potential, Caucasian losers with limited mental acuity, glomming onto the white-power movement out of frustration for their lot in life.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
My brother is a certified genius. He grasps concepts that leave me baffled, with ease. But he's socially completely, well, what I'd call backward.
Posted by stacey (Member # 3661) on :
Yeah that would be better, I think I know a few of those myself.
quote:What I meant was that if you got to talk about any other subject (ones not touching on a few issues), you wouldn't right them off as disgruntled, low-earning-potential, Caucasian losers with limited mental acuity, glomming onto the white-power movement out of frustration for their lot in life.
Weird, your stereotype of typical racists is different to mine. The word racist for me usually cojures up thoughts of well-off white people rather than low earners.
Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: (She's pretty cute, too.)
She's aggressively cute!
quote: He is another one who claims he's not racist but "just thinks that people should stick to their own races." And then when I confronted him with the studies on genetic differences in race, etc., he got really agitated and said even more stupid stuff. [/QB]
Oh, yeah, I LOVE that excuse. Puh-leeze! "Stick to your own race." Personally, I think sticking to your own species is good enough. Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: I'm not denying that they do harm to individuals, but I stand by my statement that the sum total of discrimination faced by whites in this country is less than that faced by any other people. Honestly, there isn't really a comparison.
I agree with you there, but I think you'll probably agree with me that racism is potentially damaging no matter where it's coming from and no matter where it's directed. No, anti-white racism isn't as huge a problem on the whole as anti-other-than-white racism.
Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
quote:Originally posted by stacey: Weird, your stereotype of typical racists is different to mine. The word racist for me usually cojures up thoughts of well-off white people rather than low earners.
Interesting! Just anecdotally, none of the racists I know are well-off, and all of them are very low earners (including my sister-in-law here). Usually, the racist people I know are very under-educated, as well. But that's just my experience, of course.
Posted by stacey (Member # 3661) on :
Yeah I don't get the "stick to your own race" arguement either. Why?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:She's aggressively cute!
Yeah. We think so, anyway. Actually, all the kids in our family are agressively cute. (Witness the latest pics of my kids.) Luckily for all the cute kid-adorers in the world, Jaden has a sister due in January and my other brother- and sister-in-law have their first due in March. Posted by stacey (Member # 3661) on :
Yeah that is interesting. I don't actually think I know any low-earning racists only well-off ones. These are the ones that think that all Maori (I live in NZ BTW) are lazy, complaining, dole bluging, pot and p heads who never do anything for themselves. These are people I know well, who know how I feel, but who think that because all the people in the room are white, it is ok to make racist remarks. What I hate most is now their kids think like that, kids my age, who when one Maori does something wrong feels that their parents ideas are validated. Grrr. I just hate it.
Posted by stacey (Member # 3661) on :
quote:I also don't send him pictures of my sister-in-law and her husband and daughter. I was showing pictures of Jaden once and he said such nasty stuff I wanted to slap him.
Ugh, I think I would of slapped him brother or not. Does he realise how much what hes saying hurts other people? I can only imagine how angry I would be if my brother started saying stuff like that to me about my niece. It's even worse if someone that was young and easily influenced was in earshot.....
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz:
quote:Originally posted by Lalo: Wow, what a surprise, a white supremacist bartender... from Big Bear?
I was going to post something similar. I've been to Big Bear. It doesn't really surprise me that someone growing up there might come out of the process with a certain take on the world.
Huh. My only association with Big Bear is "place in mountains; not too far; nice place to spend Shabbos; has snow." But then again, I'm a tourist.
Hey, Libbie. Want an excuse to get away from Big Bear for a few hours? We could have a Shinda (local slang for Hatrack get-together)! It's been way too long since the last one.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Oooh! Shinda, shinda, shinda, shinda, shinda!
I'm in!
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
quote:Sure, the logos on her site only say "White Pride," but the swastikas tattooed on her boyfriend speak volumes about how she REALLY feels.
[derail] Y'all know that swastikas are important symbols in Buddhism and have been for thousands of years, right? [/derail]
quote:Will wanted me to bring a portfolio with me to show them my wedding photos. Do you think I should leave these ones in the portfolio, or take them out?
I vote for leaving them in. Let her know upfront where you stand. Of course, that's also inviting conflict... But then, I'm evil. Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samarkand:
Here's my racist comment - I think mixed race people are sometimes some of the most beautiful and hottest. Like in the movie . . .Barbershop? I think? . . . with the black actor with blue eyes . . . wow. Just wow. Or all those people running around with perfect perma-tans who never have to go out in the sun to keep them . . . darn them all!
I'm convinced hapa people will someday rule the world through SHEER STUNNING BEAUTY.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I'm gonna have to agree; so-called "mixed-race" children are often some of the most stunning the world knows.
Of course, we here at Hatrack have universally cute children, whatever race(s) they be. So we can comfortably say that without worrying that we'll offend anyone here, because we know that we who have non "mixed-race" children have the rest of the most stunning children in the world. Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I skipped over bits and pieces of this thread, but here's what popped to mind from what I gleaned:
Like it or not, there IS a white culture in America. It isn't a matter of whether or not they need one, they have one. I'm French-Canadian-American if you really want to trace it back (with a healthy dose of English). But I'm, on one side, a half dozen generations removed, and on the other, two dozen, but even so that's from Canada, if you go back to France it's another half dozen again.
So, I have no foreign culture to look to, I have American, heterosexual white man culture. I might not be proud of bits and pieces of it, but if a great many people do, I won't fault them for it. You can be proud to be a white man and not be against everyone else.
Secondly, what's wrong with Crossfade?
I don't think it's fair to say that black people, or hispanic people, or whatever minority group has more of a right to a racial identity than anyone else, to say nothing of the fact that most of those racial groups do not have a single unifying culture. Music is probably the easiest way to define it all. I suppose I have to think more about this....
Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
quote:She's aggressively cute!
Yeah. We think so, anyway. Actually, all the kids in our family are agressively cute. (Witness the latest pics of my kids.) Luckily for all the cute kid-adorers in the world, Jaden has a sister due in January and my other brother- and sister-in-law have their first due in March.
Oh my god, the pics of your daughters actually made me go, "AWWWW!" out loud.
Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
Hey, Libbie. Want an excuse to get away from Big Bear for a few hours? We could have a Shinda (local slang for Hatrack get-together)! It's been way too long since the last one.
I would LOVE that. Actually, if you don't have any other plans that week, we will be spending the 30th at Knott's Scary Farm and the 31st (our 2-year anniversary, and our technical reason for going south) at Disneyland. We'll be in LA from the 28th - 29th visiting a friend, but he'll be working most of that time, so we'll need something interesting to do. I think we're leaving Anaheim for Big Bear on the 2nd.
If anybody wants to see if we can schedule a get-together, it could be really fun. Don't be afraid to invite yourself to Disneyland with us on our anniversary - we're meeting up with a bunch of other friends there.
Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
quote:Originally posted by quidscribis: Y'all know that swastikas are important symbols in Buddhism and have been for thousands of years, right? [/derail]
Of course, but that's not the context in which they're used in the White Pride movements.
quote:I vote for leaving them in. Let her know upfront where you stand. Of course, that's also inviting conflict... But then, I'm evil.
I considered it. I really, really did.
Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac: I'm convinced hapa people will someday rule the world through SHEER STUNNING BEAUTY.
Totally agree with you.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Libbie: We'll be in LA from the 28th - 29th visiting a friend, but he'll be working most of that time, so we'll need something interesting to do.
October 29 would be great for me. My place is available, unless someone else wanted to volunteer.
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samarkand: Here's my racist comment - I think mixed race people are sometimes some of the most beautiful and hottest. Like in the movie . . .Barbershop? I think? . . . with the black actor with blue eyes . . . wow. Just wow. Or all those people running around with perfect perma-tans who never have to go out in the sun to keep them . . . darn them all!
Hehe...that's funny because Arnold Schwarzenegger (yes I had to google the spelling) was called a racist about a month ago for making remarkable similar comments. He just happened to be incorrect in some of the details.
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: I skipped over bits and pieces of this thread, but here's what popped to mind from what I gleaned:
Like it or not, there IS a white culture in America. It isn't a matter of whether or not they need one, they have one. I'm French-Canadian-American if you really want to trace it back (with a healthy dose of English). But I'm, on one side, a half dozen generations removed, and on the other, two dozen, but even so that's from Canada, if you go back to France it's another half dozen again.
So, I have no foreign culture to look to, I have American, heterosexual white man culture. I might not be proud of bits and pieces of it, but if a great many people do, I won't fault them for it. You can be proud to be a white man and not be against everyone else.
Secondly, what's wrong with Crossfade?
I don't think it's fair to say that black people, or hispanic people, or whatever minority group has more of a right to a racial identity than anyone else, to say nothing of the fact that most of those racial groups do not have a single unifying culture. Music is probably the easiest way to define it all. I suppose I have to think more about this....
What I was saying earlier in the thread was not that black people have more of a right to a racial identity, its that I personally do not believe that "white" should be considered a unified whole. People who are "white" have backgrounds, and no matter how far removed you are from your "homeland" the fact is that white people most often lost their culture through time, and not through the fact that they don't even know where they come from. Of course there are many many exceptions and all, and I'm in a hurry so I don't have a lot of time to think this out quite right.
I'm curious what constitutes "white" culture because personally, I don't believe there is one. There is typical suburban, rural, and urban lifestyles, typical American lifestyles, but nothing I would consider White Lifestyle. I'm not trying to argue, I'm really curious. What is white culture?
Maybe the fact that I have a different background, and I'm not as far removed from the boat, so to speak, as you are (and the fact that I don't like Crossfade ) might mean that we have very different worldviews. In fact, I'm sure we do. So tell me more!
(probably not making sense, but I'm late! *runs away*)
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Secondly, what's wrong with Crossfade?
Hear, hear! I happen to like them too.
(/derail)
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:I think mixed race people are sometimes some of the most beautiful and hottest.
I've thought this for some time. One of the prettiest girls (I felt) in my high school was half white, half indian. When Smallville came out I had a huge crush on Kristen Kruek, I think in part because her half-dutch/half-chinese features are so exotic and beautiful. Then there is Alicia Keys (1/4 Italian, 1/4 Irish, 1/2 Jamaican according to Wikipedia), who has a skin-tone to kill for, and gorgeous features. There are many many more examples out there, of course.
Edit: I've shared this opinion with Niki, and she agrees, and we both think it is a minor shame that we are both lame white people (though her adopted father is of Mexican descent, so at least she has some claim to culture ).
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Wow. A lot to cover. Lets see what I can add to the discussion.
White Culture? Yes, its called Hollywood. About 80% of all movies, and 75% of all Television promotes, predicts, or presents White Culture.
Why do people still cling to these racist ideas? For three reasons I've determined.
1) Fear of revenge. That those we've beaten down for centuries will beat us down once they get in power. This is the strongest motivator in prison/race gangs. Here you have to be a racist or else those in the other racial gangs will gang up on you. Its a self-defeating, and a self-fullfilling. If group A fears that group B will enslave group A unless group A enslaves group B first (or instead of enslave, beat down, subdue or kill) then both group A and B will race to be the slave owner, beater, subduer, and killer. Hence self-fulfilling.
However, as we've seen with the "White Culture" question, where do you draw the lines. You subdue all the African Americans. Then the Jews and Arabs, since they are kind of dark and definately non-Christian. Then the hispanics because they are a bit dark too. Then the Mormons, Scientologists, and the Spanish, since none of them meet our perfect list. Then the Italians, the French, the Germans, etc. Next thing you know its you trying to subdue everyone else before they subdue you.
Christian White Supremisist? How can you be Christian, and "Love Jesus" when you are White Supremisist who must hate Jews and non-Whites, both of which describe Jesus. (Unless you believe the great miracle that not only did the Jewess Mary give virgin birth to our Savior, but gave birth to a "white boy" too.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Ooops I left out the other two reasons its believed.
2) Fear of loss of identity. Fear that they will be overwhelmed by shear numbers in the minority, so that they will cease to be and cease to matter. (In other words, lose power)
3) Simplicity of Sin. Sin, evil, is not a matter of choice for a true racist. Its a matter of birth. For a white supremist, being white is the only virtue, being black is the only sin. Any thing you do, if you are white, is virtuous. Anything you do, if you are black, is a sin. Hence life is easy. The only sin a white person could do is racial treason. That is why those who make friends with the other races are more condemned than the other races themselves.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Ooops I left out the other two reasons its believed.
2) Fear of loss of identity. Fear that they will be overwhelmed by shear numbers in the minority, so that they will cease to be and cease to matter. (In other words, lose power)
3) Simplicity of Sin. Sin, evil, is not a matter of choice for a true racist. Its a matter of birth. For a white supremist, being white is the only virtue, being black is the only sin. Any thing you do, if you are white, is virtuous. Anything you do, if you are black, is a sin. Hence life is easy. The only sin a white person could do is racial treason. That is why those who make friends with the other races are more condemned than the other races themselves.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:Originally posted by Libbie:
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: I'm not denying that they do harm to individuals, but I stand by my statement that the sum total of discrimination faced by whites in this country is less than that faced by any other people. Honestly, there isn't really a comparison.
I agree with you there, but I think you'll probably agree with me that racism is potentially damaging no matter where it's coming from and no matter where it's directed. No, anti-white racism isn't as huge a problem on the whole as anti-other-than-white racism.
I do agree with you. My only point in bringing up that point was to reply to those why question why we have ethnic-pride movements for minorities and not for majorities. I say it's because the minorities feel constantly under attack for their ethnicity, and so they need to turn it into a badge of pride to assert that it is not a mark of shame. I don't believe this need is as strong in members of the dominant culture.
All groups have "culture," and all groups have racists (and people who are otherwise prejudiced), and all racism hurts. I have not said or implied otherwise. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
rivka, we can make it on the 29th. Wanna start a thread? Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Yeah, I was just thinking that we should. Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:I'm still trying to work out my reaction to it. Oddly enough, it's not fear... it's more like frustration, i think, that these beliefs still exist. I'm having trouble expressing myself right now... maybe i'll come back later and post again. sorry
Yeah, that was my reaction too. I first thumbed through a white supremacist board in 1992, and the sensation was scary. It was like a wave of fully psychological nausea. It was like my brain wanted to throw up through my eyes.
Once the emotional reaction passed and I could fully wrap my head around how ostensibly rational beings could end up where those folk are, I started to feel way better about it. Why?
White supremacists are, comfortingly, their own worst enemies. Their xenophobia consumes them, and defines them. It's the supreme irony: the 'lesser races' and 'zionists' and 'whatever-cultural-group-is-bogarting-their-purity-this-week' essentially rule their lives; they end up withdrawing into stigmatized counterculture just to define themselves and justify their phobias.
It's a pitiful state, especially given the .. um, demographics of their social support networks. Unsurprisingly, groups organized by common virtue of outright phobia of other races are filled with very disagreeable and often legitimately mental people. It's why white supremacist groups fracture so often and remain mostly fissiparous. Seriously, half the time, they can't even get along with themselves.
But I love them! They serve a vital purpose. They're stow bombs: they associate racism inexorably with paranoid fanaticism and ranty hatred. The unsavory connection probably hurts their cause far more than they could ever advance it, by making racism seem the providence of weird hickish crazy folk.
In my mind, they are free to stew in their cognitive dissonance and become the fully unoriginal eight gazillionth group in human history to pretend that they're the Master Race and the Master Culture and that they can defend this purity and keep their phenotype and cultural mores static in an ever-changing world. Good luck, fellas. Do pardon me if you don't get any sympathy.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by MyrddinFyre:
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: I skipped over bits and pieces of this thread, but here's what popped to mind from what I gleaned:
Like it or not, there IS a white culture in America. It isn't a matter of whether or not they need one, they have one. I'm French-Canadian-American if you really want to trace it back (with a healthy dose of English). But I'm, on one side, a half dozen generations removed, and on the other, two dozen, but even so that's from Canada, if you go back to France it's another half dozen again.
So, I have no foreign culture to look to, I have American, heterosexual white man culture. I might not be proud of bits and pieces of it, but if a great many people do, I won't fault them for it. You can be proud to be a white man and not be against everyone else.
Secondly, what's wrong with Crossfade?
I don't think it's fair to say that black people, or hispanic people, or whatever minority group has more of a right to a racial identity than anyone else, to say nothing of the fact that most of those racial groups do not have a single unifying culture. Music is probably the easiest way to define it all. I suppose I have to think more about this....
What I was saying earlier in the thread was not that black people have more of a right to a racial identity, its that I personally do not believe that "white" should be considered a unified whole. People who are "white" have backgrounds, and no matter how far removed you are from your "homeland" the fact is that white people most often lost their culture through time, and not through the fact that they don't even know where they come from. Of course there are many many exceptions and all, and I'm in a hurry so I don't have a lot of time to think this out quite right.
I'm curious what constitutes "white" culture because personally, I don't believe there is one. There is typical suburban, rural, and urban lifestyles, typical American lifestyles, but nothing I would consider White Lifestyle. I'm not trying to argue, I'm really curious. What is white culture?
Maybe the fact that I have a different background, and I'm not as far removed from the boat, so to speak, as you are (and the fact that I don't like Crossfade ) might mean that we have very different worldviews. In fact, I'm sure we do. So tell me more!
(probably not making sense, but I'm late! *runs away*)
I don't think there is one white culture, though I think there is a public face of white culture, whether it be the rich one man culture or white trash. But (I think it was) Dan was right when he said Hollywood and television. They almost always depict an idealized form of, or parody of, middle class white culture. The house in the suburbs with a car, a couple kids, nice neighborhood school, all that is the ideal American white culture, it's the American dream.
But no, there is no one white culture, there is no one black culture, no one Hispanic, or oriental, or anything culture. There's a mishmash of American culture, but I think the best lines are socio-economic. Where do you live? How much money do you make? Those things define what culture you are more a part of than anything having to do with race.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:Where do you live? How much money do you make?
To which I would add the following: Urban or rural? What size town? What religion? How serious about that religion? How large is your family and how close do you live to them?
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Lyrhawn, it sounds like you're saying ethnicity is not a determiner at all, and that's where I disagree with you. It's one thing to point out that blacks, latinos, and whites are not homogenous, but if you're going to say that people of the same region and socioeconomic background are homogenous while blacks, latinos, etc are not, then I really don't see where you're getting that idea from. I don't have everything in common with other latinos--especially latinos from different regions or different national backgrounds--but I certainly have a set of common experiences that I do not share with other upper middle class white guys in Florida.
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: My only point in bringing up that point was to reply to those why question why we have ethnic-pride movements for minorities and not for majorities. I say it's because the minorities feel constantly under attack for their ethnicity, and so they need to turn it into a badge of pride to assert that it is not a mark of shame. I don't believe this need is as strong in members of the dominant culture.
I agree with this to an extent Icarus. However, I can't help but wonder if the formation of racially oriented pride groups furthers the us vs. them mentality. I don't know what the solution is though
As an aside, I agree about an anti-latino bias here in this country, at least from an anecdotal standpoint. My wife is from Argentina. Every time she needs to go to a government office (DMV for example) she always likes me to go along. Why? It's a night and day difference in her experience. When they see that she's with a white guy, they're more helpful and courteous. If she goes by herself she says that it seems like they make it more difficult for her and are even rude at times.
She's been here since age 17 and speaks perfect English (and spells better than I do), and is a very polite person, so I'm pretty certain it's simply racial reasons. As Libbie can attest to, racism hurts on a personal level. It's no wonder that minorities often instinctively band together. Sure there are bigots of all races out there. For the most part though, I think that the whole _______ pride thing can just be attributed to a need to feel good about something that they have been unfairly made to feel terrible about.
Edited to add:
quote:Where do you live? How much money do you make? Those things define what culture you are more a part of than anything having to do with race.
I have to disagree with this. I'm very familiar with parts of both Chinese and Latin American culture and there are genuine differences in many areas. I agree with your point that its not necessarily tied to race, however there are definately unique mindsets and viewpoints of those raised in different cultures.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:In my mind, they are free to stew in their cognitive dissonance and become the fully unoriginal eight gazillionth group in human history to pretend that they're the Master Race and the Master Culture and that they can defend this purity and keep their phenotype and cultural mores static in an ever-changing world. Good luck, fellas. Do pardon me if you don't get any sympathy.
It is awfully difficult to live with one in the family, though. Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
quote:Originally posted by BaoQingTian:
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: My only point in bringing up that point was to reply to those why question why we have ethnic-pride movements for minorities and not for majorities. I say it's because the minorities feel constantly under attack for their ethnicity, and so they need to turn it into a badge of pride to assert that it is not a mark of shame. I don't believe this need is as strong in members of the dominant culture.
I agree with this to an extent Icarus. However, I can't help but wonder if the formation of racially oriented pride groups furthers the us vs. them mentality. I don't know what the solution is though
Only insofar as the "them" in this equation either fears the "others" may be right, and therefore attempts to pre-empt this truth while they have the power to confuse and mislead, or, more likely IMO, our internal I/Other mechanism is being increasingly misapplied in circumstances which back in our species more bloody past was actually an advantage of sorts.
-Bok
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Icarus -
I never said it had NOTHING to do with race. But I think you can find two guys in Detroit, one black one white who have a lot more in commonhood and a lot more brotherhood than you'll find from a Black guy in Detroit and a black guy in Des Moines, or a farm outside Des Moines.
BQT -
For those RAISED in different cultures sure, they bring their culture with them. But how many generations before they meld in with the rest of the national culture?
It goes to the whole melting pot metaphor.
Why is it assumed that racism is always whites being racist towards anyone and everyone else? And why is AA called "reverse racism" as if the term racism was defined as "White hatred of other races?"
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
quote:Then the Jews and Arabs, since they are kind of dark
We Jews aren't very dark anymore - centuries in Europe have bleached us. I myself am so fair that I've actually had (stupid) people ask me if I'm an Albino. If I were blonde, I'd be invisible. To be fair, I am half WASP, but my Jewish side is from England and Austria. I've had people tell me that I don't look Jewish, in both highly complimetary and highly derogatory tones.
In my experience, geography and shared experience have played the biggest part of the level of kinship I feel with people. I was discriminated against more in the Northeast for being Southern than I was in the South for being Jewish. I can relate more to black Southern Baptists than I can to white NYC Jews. Andrew and I joke that we have an intercultural marriage because he's from NYC and I'm from Georgia. We were just at a NICU reunion this weekend and it was extremely ethnically diverse (the majority of graduates and families were black, because black preemies do the best). There's a bond between NICU families that transcends any racial, cultural, or religious differences.
I know it can seem bleak, but I think race are getting better. Consider my pediatricians' office - one doctor is a black Christian, one is a white Jew, and the other is a Latina (not sure if she's Christian, I just know she's not Jewish (she was on call for Yom Kippur)). Interestingly, they're all Republican.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
I don't mind the big bigots like the cat described at the beginning of the thread, or kq's brother. They aren't the problem. The problem is the people who deny their existence, and are enablers by omission. As I see it, the capital "B" Bigots are products of America. They went to American schools, succeed in American life, go to American churches, and are active in our American communities. The question that everyone else should be asking is how such a person can be the product of our society and institutions, and to what extent does the seed that came in full flower in the body of the Bigot live in our other institutions. Those are the real issues.
I more white people took serious ownership of this issue, I think the whole of society would improve for the bargain.
I read a quote by guy named Neely Fuller, and the more I think about it, the more it makes sense to me, ""If you do not understand White Supremacy (Racism) What it is, and how it works everything else that you understand, will only confuse you."
There is a bit of truth there.
_______
I'll lay the second problem out like this: as it stands, America is like the white side of a chessboard, we have pawns, knights, rooks, queens, and then we have the king, and the king, in cahoots with a few other pieces, is telling the people that all the pieces are equal, and further, and if the pawns tried a little bit harder, they could capture as many other pieces and move as freely as the Queen. When the other pieces point out how they all aren't allowed to move equally, the king points out that lucky pawn who makes it to the other side of the board and becomes a queen to show how fair the game is. And if things ever get really bad, the king says, "Look, just play the damn game, we are all on the same team, all of this infighting will only lead to the other side winning. Once the game is over, then take it up with me. Instead of wasting all of this energy yakking, you could have ended up like the little pawn who made it across the board and became a queen."
Then, after the pawns see all of their fellow pawns get taken, they start asking such inopportune questions like, "Why are we playing chess instead of checkers?" "Who decided this game, anyway?" "What if I don't want to play?" "What'll happen if I try to move like the knight moves(jail)?"
I'm done riffing. I hope I made my point clearly and artfully, but if you get anything else out of this post, know that I find Neely Fuller's quote strangely and deeply profound. You can dismiss my opinion outright in this regard, but since I'm one of the few black guys on this forum, maybe that wouldn't be the wisest thing. Fuller also said, which is more true than false, that the first priority for an African American is to figure out what to do with the white man's foot on his neck. And if that's the only thing accomplished in life before dying, that's fine. __________
I imagine that some people will read this and think me a racist. I'm not going to deny it. I don't buy the whole melting pot business. I like a salad, where the lettuce is distinct from the cucumber, which doesn't taste like the carrots or tomatoes. Furthermore, I think that there is much more to learn for the good of the Union, if we take time to think about the origin of our differences rather than pretend everyone is the same.
[ October 17, 2006, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Funny, saying the problem is "the white man" doesn't seem very accepting or understanding of the differences among white men to me.
If you think all white men are the same, and they are all keeping you down, I have trouble understanding how you could villify some white men for thinking black culture is all the same, and all negative.
Curious.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Icarus, just letting you know I haven't forgotten about this thread or the posts we traded back and forth. It's grown a bit, and I'm not sure if I want to address everything else here-I'll address yours tomorrow though:) If you say that you are a member (not necessarily card-carrying, if there is such a thing) of a -pride movement, and don't assign any superiority to it, then I'll take you at your word.
As a rule, though, I tend to think that quite a few Hatrackers are more aware of these sorts of soul-searching issues and less likely to be 'normal' about them. I think your point about -pride movements being in response to racism, or even just cultural pressure (the cultural pressure does not necessarily mean racism-Friends is not necessarily racist, but there is certainly a lot of fantasy expressing cultural pressure, for example) is a good one.
I just think it would be difficult, very difficult, for most people to think that their way of life isn't better than other people's way of life, even if they don't want to force that way of life on them, or oppress other people based upon it.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: okay...how about otherwise intelligent.
What I meant was that if you got to talk about any other subject (ones not touching on a few issues), you wouldn't right them off as disgruntled, low-earning-potential, Caucasian losers with limited mental acuity, glomming onto the white-power movement out of frustration for their lot in life.
(I'm a current student in an introductory psych class, so I am not expert, and that may make my theories dangerously inept, as I claim some small knowledge. )
This may in fact be exactly how most white supremacists present themselves. People are genetically predisposed to join "white power" movements (and this, according to my proff, has been studied), due to a tendency towards uncontrolled agression, and low intelligence, or strength of impulse control. Basically, according to a lecture I heard, today in fact, many studies of children based solely on genetic factors (adopted children raised in totally seperate environments), show that some people are very strongly predisposed towards niche finding, and gangs. For instance, identical twins raised in seperate adopted households are likely to seek similar careers, and if one becomes a white supremacist, the other is FAR more likely to be one as well. These people are not ALWAYS of low intelligence, but low intelligence IS a positive indicator for joining hate groups. The connection cannot be proved to be causal, but it does exist as a positive indicator- so those of low intelligence are far more likely to become white supremacists.
A very intelligent person may develop entirely unique reasons for becoming a white supremacist, but the process is likely to be completely different intellectually, and would rely on entirely different genetic factors. This is kind of like a football jock and a music buff both ending up as consultants at an architecture firm: it happens ALL the time, but both types in the population have DIFFERENT positive indicators for doing what they do. People of low intelligence have a positive indicator towards joing hate groups, but that proves nothing causal, and doesn't preclude others joining for other reasons. Nevertheless, the connection is valid within limitations.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Icarus, just letting you know I haven't forgotten about this thread or the posts we traded back and forth. It's grown a bit, and I'm not sure if I want to address everything else here-I'll address yours tomorrow though:) If you say that you are a member (not necessarily card-carrying, if there is such a thing) of a -pride movement, and don't assign any superiority to it, then I'll take you at your word.
As a rule, though, I tend to think that quite a few Hatrackers are more aware of these sorts of soul-searching issues and less likely to be 'normal' about them. I think your point about -pride movements being in response to racism, or even just cultural pressure (the cultural pressure does not necessarily mean racism-Friends is not necessarily racist, but there is certainly a lot of fantasy expressing cultural pressure, for example) is a good one.
I just think it would be difficult, very difficult, for most people to think that their way of life isn't better than other people's way of life, even if they don't want to force that way of life on them, or oppress other people based upon it.
How can "Friends" possibly be racist just because the cast is all white? (to say nothing of the fact that two of the characters are Jewish, and one is Italian, which is more Latin than Caucasian). Does that mean the same level of capable racism is there for "Fresh Prince of Bel Aire?" After all, Will does make an awful lot of jokes about Carlton being white, and how un-black and uncool that makes him.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
*shrug* I don't think Friends is racist, but I also don't think the charge is ridiculous what with its presentation of a whitewashed New York City.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Well, look at it this way:
Friends takes place in Greenwich Village, and the Greenwich Village/SoHo area is 67% white. Thus, more than six in ten people in that area are white, six friends on the show...the six main characters are within the statistical norm for race.
One third of the people in that same area are foreign born. Joey identifies strongly with his Italian heritage (of which his grandmother and parents are evidenced as being foreign born), and Gunther I believe is Dutch (and speaks the language fluently). While that isn't a third, I think it's within a statistical margin of error.
Pretending that all of New York is equally diverse is just as misleading as what you're accusing the show of. As a city in its entirety, it is diverse, but that diversity is NOT so rampant when you look individually at the burroughs, and this show takes place almost exclusively in one, primarily white, affluent part of the city. To say nothing of the fact that it IS NOT trying to depict an accurate representation of the cultural diversity of New York City, I'd be more upset at the misreprensentation of the city by a show that IS claiming to accurately portray it.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
Dude, I'm in Greenwich Village. It might be officially 67% white, though I'd love to see where you got that number from, but there are a lot more people here than simply those who rent apartments here. An entire corner of Washington Square Park is dedicated to black hustlers who come in from Jersey or Brooklyn, and largely thanks to NYU, Indians are everywhere. Most of the working class is Puerto Rican, and the majority of street performers are blacks and Italians.
That said, no, I don't think Friends was racist because it was all white people -- that's, if anything, realistic. Races tend to run apart from one another, a rule minorities obey more strictly than whites do. If the show's considered racist, it's probably because guilty whites enjoyed the show and felt bad about not missing the wacky black comic relief or struggling Latino drug dealer. It might appeal to closet racists (which is... everyone), but that's more because Ross and Rachel lived in a utopia without homeless blacks harassing them for money, or hustling their rap CDs and candy, or running around in gangs leering at Jennifer Aniston. Italians were lovable dopes, not break-dancing guidos spoiling for a fight. Jews were befuddled ladies' men, not spoiled princesses. If anything, the show worked toward racial unity by refusing to push racial stereotypes -- save your outrage for The Parkers and its ilk.
I'm still not sure why Friends got so much attention in a world with Arrested Development, though...
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
For the record, I don't think that Friends was racist. I think Friends was white, and 7th Heaven and Gilmore Girls are all different sides of the same white D&D die.
Now the amount of cultural influence and wealth generated by pandering to and buttressing the Friends niche may be considered an example of a racist system in action.
Anytime you get a group of people living in America and race isn't an issue, then you are probably dealing with a culturally white show.
Mrs.M:
quote:In my experience, geography and shared experience have played the biggest part of the level of kinship I feel with people. I was discriminated against more in the Northeast for being Southern than I was in the South for being Jewish. I can relate more to black Southern Baptists than I can to white NYC Jews. Andrew and I joke that we have an intercultural marriage because he's from NYC and I'm from Georgia. We were just at a NICU reunion this weekend and it was extremely ethnically diverse (the majority of graduates and families were black, because black preemies do the best). There's a bond between NICU families that transcends any racial, cultural, or religious differences.
I'm still going to guess that your daughter has a better chance of marrying a Jew than marrying another NICU baby.
[ October 17, 2006, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: For those RAISED in different cultures sure, they bring their culture with them. But how many generations before they meld in with the rest of the national culture?
It goes to the whole melting pot metaphor.
This kind of goes with my whole feeling that although the creation of pride groups is definately an understandable reaction, it may do more harm than good. As Bokonon pointed out (I think, if I'm wrong then feel free to correct me) a lot of this may be a result of tribal instincts from our past. Undesirable it may be, but it's the reality of the world right now, which is why I feel the intentional grouping may do more harm then good.
Sorry Lyrhawn, I'm getting what you said. The whole melting pot process doesn't work as well if communities deliberately isolate themselves by forming these groups. Many of the attributes of the culture they came from don't help or are even harmful in this society. Yet the group holds on to them, because it helps them band together and is part of their unique identity.
For example, education does not seem to be a central value in Latin American cultures. Lower test scores and college graduation numbers are somewhat indicative of this. This is unfortunate in the U.S. because there is a strong correlation between education level and income. I respectfully disagree with those that state that it's just the foot of the majority on their neck.
In contrast, education is supremely important to Asian Americans. They consistantly outperform not only other minorities, but also the white majority in tests and college enrollment-even at lower socioeconomical levels than their peers.
I do like Irami's whole salad analogy because it allows you to pick the best parts of everything and create something better, yet each piece still retains its own flavor. Core the lettuce, peel the cucumber, cut the top off the carrot to get rid of less desirable parts. Taking the best part of each culture would make this the best place to live in the world.
Note: I know I made some broad generalizations about cultures. There are of course numerous exceptions. I hope I haven't offended.
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Does that mean the same level of capable racism is there for "Fresh Prince of Bel Aire?" After all, Will does make an awful lot of jokes about Carlton being white, and how un-black and uncool that makes him.
That's not racism, Lyrhawn. Didn't you hear? If it's against white people, it can't be racist.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Lalo -
I got it from the census bureau. The show takes place indoors almost in its entirety, I don't know why everything has to be a social commentary (partially to Irami).
Irami -
I really don't get it. All black shows don't deal with race on a regular basis. Family Matters had maybe a half dozen white guest characters every couple episodes, and I can think of two episodes off the top of my head, from a nine year running show, that dealt with racism. Same story with a lot of other shows that have all black casts. Are all these shows part of white culture alone?
Lisa -
Yeah, I've heard that joke before. I still react with a mixture of amusement and anger.
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
quote:I'm still going to guess that your daughter has a better chance of marrying a Jew than marrying another NICU baby.
Probably. There are more Jews than there are NICU babies (although there are 3 former NICU babies in our shul). BTW, Black/Jewish relations are better and closer in the South than they are elsewhere (certainly more so than in NYC, from what I saw). This is largely due to the years of fighting together for civil rights.
I was just thinking about how my in-laws are the opposite of white supremacists. They're ultra-left-wing liberals. My MIL was thrilled to learn that our pediatrician is black, which bothered me. She didn't seem to care about his credentials, which are why we chose him. Just his race. Then we told her that he's a Republican and she hasn't been the same since.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
"Everyone's a little bit racist."
That song cracks me up for some reason.
Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
My boss (faculty at prestigious campus) heard me always talking about how brilliant one of the other grad students in another lab was. Since he didn't know the man, he decided to look up his pics (pics of grad students are distributed to faculty) and was like, hey, he is black. It is so good to see a black student succeeding. And I was like, um, not quite sure how to respond to that.
Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
quote: As I see it, the capital "B" Bigots are products of America
...because no other country has produced Bigots quite like us... Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
quote: For the record, I don't think that Friends was racist. I think Friends was white, and 7th Heaven and Gilmore Girls are all different sides of the same white D&D die.
Aaaaaaand... if that's true, I'm so gonna check the "Other" box from now on. Those three shows make me want to puke.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mrs.M: We were just at a NICU reunion this weekend and it was extremely ethnically diverse (the majority of graduates and families were black, because black preemies do the best).
There may also be some cultural differences in who maintains contact with and attends the NICU graduation reunions. I think (think, not sure) that most babies who enter NICU will survive*** -- although there may be significant disability, deaths are pretty rare in the NICU and then less rare stil in the childhood years afterward.
Given that (I think) most babies in NICUs are identified as "white" for data-collecting purposes (the rates of prematurity for "visible minorities" may be higher, but -- I think-- the actual numbers are not, at least not yet), it's more likely that there are a lot of "white" NICU grads that aren't attending the reunions you have attended, for whatever reason.
Or maybe there is an unusually distributed census at your center, or possibly there is a much higher death rate than the national norm. Who knows? Not really important to the discussion at hand, just an aside. I also don't want to leave the impression that if your baby is "white" and ends up in the NICU, it's likely to die -- even though it may be at increased risk for longterm developmental and medical concerns when compared to "black" female preemies, I think survival is more the norm for all of them than not.
[/aside]
----------
***Edited to add: Refer to, e.g., this article in the Canadian Medical Association Journal which summarizes the mortality rates for all infants admitted to Canadian NICUs from 1996-1997. There there was a 4% mortality rate: i.e., out of a total of 19,265 infants admitted, there were 795 deaths.
[ October 17, 2006, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
BaoQingTian, I disagree with your generalizations regarding latino culture.
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
That's cool, you're free to. However, I believe it was a single direct generalization not generalizations. I apologize if I offended, it was not intended to be so. I was tempted to include another generalization about the positive importance of family in latino culture, but it didn't really add much to my point and would have been in there just for balance. I generally try to avoid doing that. Would you be interested in participating in a thread about this subject?
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Irami- You might convince more people if you talked in concrete terms about how blacks are oppressed in America today, and what whites can do to change things.
I understand that blacks are oppressed in America; but it doesn't seem like there is much I can do about it. What do you see individual white Americans doing to end racism in America?
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
erm, participate in a thread wherein I defend my culture from negative claims about it? No, doesn't sound like fun, actually.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
We've already established that he is a big racist. We've already established that he is a bright guy. If you do no other thing, try to figure out how this guy got through, and most probably excelled in, his public and private education and at his current job, while at the same time becoming the quality of character that he is, and figure out what kind of priorities these institutions espouse such that his untoward tendencies have not only been ill-addressed, but they seem to have been nurtured.
[ October 17, 2006, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
If I said that when Irami talks about race, sometimes all I hear is "blah blah blah" does that make me a racist?
What if I called it white noise? Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
I am trying to think of something more superficial than one's skin color to have pride in, but it is difficult.
Am I allowed to have People-With-A-Middle-Name-That-Starts-With-W Pride? We are pretty elite after all. We even have the President in our ranks! (Note: please understand that we don't "look down on" those of you with middle names beginning with other letters; we just happen to possess an awesomeness that you can't ever have. ) Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
What about People-With-A-Vice-Presidential-Last-Name?
There's even fewer of us.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
quote:posted by quidscribis: [derail] Y'all know that swastikas are important symbols in Buddhism and have been for thousands of years, right? [/derail]
*Ack, a third page. It was hiding before!
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
quote:Originally posted by BaoQingTian: For example, education does not seem to be a central value in Latin American cultures. Lower test scores and college graduation numbers are somewhat indicative of this. This is unfortunate in the U.S. because there is a strong correlation between education level and income. I respectfully disagree with those that state that it's just the foot of the majority on their neck.
In contrast, education is supremely important to Asian Americans. They consistantly outperform not only other minorities, but also the white majority in tests and college enrollment-even at lower socioeconomical levels than their peers.
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: BaoQingTian, I disagree with your generalizations regarding latino culture.
To be fair, you can both be right. I don't think there's a question that Asians value education more than Latinos do -- but that's Latinos on the whole. You're Cuban, and as a general rule, Cubans score much higher than other Latin ethnicities do.
I know, looking at Florida, I wouldn't have expected it either...
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tresopax: I am trying to think of something more superficial than one's skin color to have pride in, but it is difficult.
Am I allowed to have People-With-A-Middle-Name-That-Starts-With-W Pride? We are pretty elite after all. We even have the President in our ranks! (Note: please understand that we don't "look down on" those of you with middle names beginning with other letters; we just happen to possess an awesomeness that you can't ever have. )
There's a Facebook group called the Pearce Appreciation Society.
Clearly, Pearces are discriminated against by the rest of the population who can't spell or pronounce our names correctly.
-pH
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
quote:Originally posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong: For the record, I don't think that Friends was racist. I think Friends was white, and 7th Heaven and Gilmore Girls are all different sides of the same white D&D die.
Now the amount of cultural influence and wealth generated by pandering to and buttressing the Friends niche may be considered an example of a racist system in action.
Anytime you get a group of people living in America and race isn't an issue, then you are probably dealing with a culturally white show.
And is a "culturally white" show a bad thing?
Actually, I'm kinda offended on behalf of all minorities. One of my biggest issues with the George Lopez show (who is, I should add, one of the greatest Mexican comedians of all time) was how desperately important it was to contrast his wacky Mexican background to his white neighbors. It works great as a comedy routine, but in a sitcom emulating real life, it comes off as just another blackface bit. He's a man, not a Mexican -- and people like you who force him to be the latter at the cost of the former rob all minorities of their dignity. Friends and Gilmore Girls focus on comedy and drama, with white characters. Do you really think blacks can't be funny or dramatic without "acting white"? Can educated blacks talk well without "talking white"?
Jose and I are both Latinos, him to a greater extent than I -- and while it's a great background to have and definitely influences some parts of our lives, I don't think either of us let it define us. Maybe I feel more relaxed around minorities than some of my white friends are, and I have no fear of cracking racial jokes amongst friends, but it's not so much an issue that I feel insulted every time someone mentions, gasp, race and doesn't make a display of pity for me.
If you grew up in a racist area, man, I'm sorry. But you don't need to be the black guy forever -- whether you know it or not, to most other people, you're just a guy. Yeah, I know, cops probably push you around, and you probably have more trouble getting bank loans, but nobody here thinks you're somehow lesser for your color. That Friends focused on white characters and used witty humor doesn't make it exclusive to any one race, any more than Arrested Development or The George Lopez Show were.
And Lyrhawn's right about black sitcoms. Since the eighties, most have made a point to exclude any non-black characters and caricature black stereotypes -- if you're going to pretend insult, look at The Parkers or, well, any show on UPN. The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air's primary audience was white, if you'll remember -- somehow, white people managed to overcome their distaste for a sitcom with a different race. Can't you?
The Boondocks is the only show I've seen with even vague respect for the black intellect, and it's a damn shame so few people watch it. For so long as you think intelligent humor is white, you're going to continue the trend of Barbershop-type crap that paints the black race as ignorant, stupid, and shallow. Have some self-respect, dude, or you'll never see a genuinely insightful drama with black characters without their relegation to your approved stereotypes as only black characters.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
quote:Originally posted by Juxtapose:
quote:posted by quidscribis: [derail] Y'all know that swastikas are important symbols in Buddhism and have been for thousands of years, right? [/derail]
Um. While I recognize that Wikipedia is not a perfect source of information, it still can be a good source. Check out their page on swastikas. In Buddhism, Hinduism, etc, it can and has been used with the spokes rotating in either direction, and while usually used with the swastika horizontal, can also be used with it diagonal. So, um...
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Lalo -
Nice post.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
While I was aware that that the spokes could go either way, I didn't know that even the traditional swastika could be rotated.
To be fair though, the only time that the article specifically mentioned a rotated swastika - aside from nazi-related instances - was regarding Russian bank notes in 1917. Actually, I suppose that's sort of nazi-related, since the article speculated it was the basis for the nazi design. It also included a picture of a rotated swastika that, according to the caption, was based on a flag adopted in 1925, even though the flag itself does not bear a rotated swastika. It's pretty clear that the swastika, when used in its tradition sense, is depicted horizontally.
Because, if someone didn't know that swastikas were a common symbol of well-being, peace, intelligence, strength, or a bunch of other things, it might be useful for them to know that the symbol is generally constructed horizontally. As opposed to the nazi symbol, which never is, as far as I know.
Hence I use the word Manji to denote the positive symbol since "swastika" has a whole mess of negative connotation attatched to it, technically accurate as it may be.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I think there's a bit of a selection issue going on. Saying that latinos don't, as a culture, value education, is about as accurate as saying that blacks are not law-abiding. Both of these are characteristic of low socio-economic status, and latinos and blacks are more highly represented among the lower socio-economic sttus, for a variety of reasons, quite a few of which are external. So, while statistics would be on your side in making both claims, I do not believe either tells the whole story.
From my perspective, it is a centerpiece of latino culture that latinos value education extremely highly and show more respect for educators and educated people than is the norm. In fact, I have found this to be extremely useful when dealing with the parents of my latino students. I just say, wistfully, gee, I have always been proud of how highly we latinos value education, but Juanito's behavior would indicate I'm wrong about that. Maybe it's a generational thing . . . And you should see the parents jump all over themselves to assert that I am not mistaken, that they do value education, and you should see how they get on their kids' cases.
Frankly, I do not think the generalization about Asians is correct either, for similar reasons. Beyond the socioeconomic status of an immigrant group in America, you have to look at the socioeconomic status the immigrant group enjoyed in its home country. For instance, I have heard the educational distinction between Cubans and Mexicans pointed out before, but I do not think it's a fair one, because the first wave of Cuban political refugees were those who had the financial wherewithall to escape, and while they were not uniformly rich, they were, as a group, not poor either. Mexicans, it is m understanding, are more likely to be immigrating for economic reasons, and more of them were poor over there as well. So I don't think it's intrinsic to Cuban culture to value education more or intrinsic to Mexican culture to value education less. Similarly, the trip from Asia to America is a long one, and those who make the trip in the twentieth century are likely to have been wealthier back home than the norm. It's not a matter of sneaking across a fluid border. I have read a lot about Japan that would indicate that education is very highly valued there, across the culture, but I'm not sure the same can be said for all Asians. I have spoken to people who spent a year in Korea or Thailand teaching English, and they report that they find it different from our preconceptions about Asia.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Juxtapose, I hear what you're saying, completely and totally.
Wikipedia is as limited as its writers are, so it's not surprising that it has gaps. The first time I checked out the entry for Canada, it was a total of 14 sections and I found many, many errors and omissions - it was laughable. Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
They tend to make white people in shows and sitcoms look shallow and stupid too. I reckon it's a television thing more than anything else. Any group looks ridiculous on television. Is it any wonder people's perceptions are so narrow? Race frustrates me. It's a neverending argument. I can't understand it...
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
I actually think what I said here
quote:For the record, I don't think that Friends was racist. I think Friends was white, and 7th Heaven and Gilmore Girls are all different sides of the same white D&D die.
Now the amount of cultural influence and wealth generated by pandering to and buttressing the Friends niche may be considered an example of a racist system in action.
Anytime you get a group of people living in America and race isn't an issue, then you are probably dealing with a culturally white show.
is consistent with what Lalo said here:
quote:The Boondocks is the only show I've seen with even vague respect for the black intellect, and it's a damn shame so few people watch it.
I haven't seen Boondocks, but I've read the comic. If we are going to talk about shows I've seen, I'd say "The Wire" does a good job, and I think that Friday Night Lights is shaping up in the same way. But notice, on both of those shows, race is right up there in the forefront of discussion and thought.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
This:
quote:Anytime you get a group of people living in America and race isn't an issue, then you are probably dealing with a culturally white show.
bothers me, and I'm not sure I can quite explain why.
-pH
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
quote:Juxtapose, I hear what you're saying, completely and totally. [Smile]
Wikipedia is as limited as its writers are, so it's not surprising that it has gaps. The first time I checked out the entry for Canada, it was a total of 14 sections and I found many, many errors and omissions - it was laughable. [Smile]
Yay! Agreement on both counts. Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
What about "The Cosby Show?"
Icarus- I was telling an Indian friend of mine about an Indian girl I knew in high school who always complained about affirmative action in India. She always said that while the caste system was a problem in the past, it wasn't anymore, and she shouldn't have fewer opportunities than lower caste teenagers did. He just looked at me and pointed out, "She was in the US."
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Um, while the caste system officially doesn't exist, it still does and it is still a problem. Not as much as it was historically, and not as overtly all the time, but still.
It also exists in Sri Lanka, although here it usually goes under the guise of status (except when it's arranged marriage time - then it's definitely caste, as in Govi Buddhist and such). It's unspoken, but it's constantly there, and everyone evaluates everyone else for their status and how they should treat them accordingly.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
The caste system in India, as I understand it, is supremely important. Light skin is the standard for beauty, and darker Indians are generally relegated to menial labor and prostitution. There was an article maybe a year ago about a ghetto of Indian "untouchables" who were terrorized by a man who'd had every woman and girl in the neighborhood gang-raped many times, to keep their families under control. If they went to the police, the police would rape them again and send them on their way. Finally, when the man was walking out of a courthouse (I believe he'd just had another set of charges against him dismissed), a gang of these women descended on him with kitchen knives and bare hands, and tore him apart. The only reason why it was news at all is not because of the man's brutality, but because their response existed at all. It was something akin to a slave revolt.
It's not a subtle thing at all. India's an amazing country, but my god, it needs social reforms on a stunningly massive scale.
Of course, it also goes without saying that the darker Indians are also way hotter than their light-skinned counterparts. I don't see what the big deal is about Aishwaria Arai, or whatever her name is -- I've seen Indian women who outclass her here on NYC streets. If nothing else sparks an outcry for reform...
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Y'all watch Grey's Anatomy? It isn't about race. Race is almost never mentioned. It's about hot doctors who all sleep with each other.
Also, the chief of surgery, the next in line, and the boss of the interns are all black. One is female. The women are not all tall and thin with different colors of hair to distinguish them, but they are honestly all different in frame and race and body type and I LOVE that.
It's a fluffy, soapy show, but it's also fun and occasionally clever. And it isn't even close to lily-white. Only about half of the main characters are white.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I knew she was wrong. But when someone's that committed to not seeing things, it's sort of hard to make them.
Actually, she wasn't particularly light skinned, either.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
Am I the only one who had a hard time thinking that Teal'c is black? I mean, he's clearly a Jaffa!
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I didn't even go to the link.![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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I am proud of the United States, I listen to country and folk music, I speak English better than most "pure" Americans.![[Evil]](graemlins/evil.gif)
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