This is topic Something depressing on Nat'l Coming Out Day in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.


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Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
I'd forgotten what today was. It's a pretty minor day, up there with Talk like a pirate day...

But for those who haven't come out to their loved ones, it's an important day. They day they can "get around" to it. Like Quitting Smoking day... You set a date and do it.

So I see a featured story on Yahoo about it. I think "Oh cool" and click on it. I read their little blurb... Then I look at the 300+ (more now) comments at the bottom.

Maybe, living in California I'm just insulated. Maybe I've just forgotten what the Real World is like... but I was unprepared.

The vast majority of the comments consisted of "Die F**S" and "Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve" and "Go back into the closet" or "Enjoy Hell F**S!"... and it went down hill from there.

I doubt most of these people attend church or generally give a rodents buttocks about what God says... except where gay people are concerned.

I realize it's better here than in the rest of the world... but sometimes I wish I could take my ball and go home. I don't want anything I do... anything I have a hand in making to benefit these people.

They don't deserve it.

Pix
 

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Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
 
I think that people who are willing to be open about that aspect of themselves are very brave. Particularly in light of those sorts of comments.
 

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Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
 
My family already knows. They're not happy about it, but they know, and they're not stopping me.

It is sad that people will hate that much.
 

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Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
Tin: it takes 'em time. They go through the "death of dreams" too.

But if my redneck family can get over it, anyone's can. Just never forget they love you.
 

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Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
 
I've come out to my family twice. As Pix said, it takes time. For you it'll seem like forever, but for them it might be something that they just learned whereas you've been thinking about it, etc for a lot longer than them.
 

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Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
 
See, I'm bi... so there's still a very real possibility that I'll settle down with a nice man, have children, etc. But... oh well. I'm happy with myself, and my choices. I guess that's all that matters.
 

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Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
 
Yup. If I've learned anything over the past year it's just that.
 

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Posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged (Member # 7476) on :
 
You'll find almost all newstories on Yahoo with comments are filled with that sort of thing. I learned a long time to ignore that sort of nastiness.
 

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Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
Yes, I think it's a web phenomenon. If you saw the people posting those comments, my guess is you'd be looking at a bunch of 13 year old boys who got there by trolling for porn or something.
 

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Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
 
I went looking for the article, and found it. Apparently, comments have been suspended due to hateful postings. That kind of thing makes me happy- that someone would see it and stop it.
 

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Posted by General Sax (Member # 9694) on :
 
I do not see that anyones sexuality is a decent topic. As for the ritual of 'coming out' I suppose it is analogous to telling the parents that you have done 'it' in my world. The value is just shocking them into recognizing you as an adult, perhaps buying some independence and space.

I do not see it as surprising that it usually creates a rift. The only bravery involved is a hidden desire to shatter ties that are vulnerable to breaches of decorum. We are each of us many things, a man should not take every lust and violent impulse and make it public, living in an upstanding manner is and always has been about maintaining a persona, it is a virtue that all civilized adults must embrace. It is a shame that the art of wearing your mask has fallen into disrepute and a virtue has been made of indecent exposure. Come on, we all know what is under the coat, polite people do not open it in public.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
I think that you are missing the value in being honest with your family.
 

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Posted by Tstorm (Member # 1871) on :
 

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The only bravery involved is a hidden desire to shatter ties that are vulnerable to breaches of decorum.

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It is a shame that the art of wearing your mask has fallen into disrepute and a virtue has been made of indecent exposure.

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Most of them probably don't even think they have a sexual orientation.

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Originally posted by kojabu:
I don't think most heterosexuals have to think about their sexuality.

they don't. Most of them probably don't even think they have a sexual orientation. And most "traditionally" gendered people don't think about that either.

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It is a shame that the art of wearing your mask has fallen into disrepute and a virtue has been made of indecent exposure.

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Originally posted by KarlEd:
And it's hell when you feel that you have to wear a mask for the ones you love. When you're a closeted homosexual, every "I love you" from your parents holds the caveat "at least the straight 'you' I think I know." You never know if you are loved for who you are if no one knows who that is. That, my friend, is hell, and it's far too great a price to pay in the name of prudish "decorum".

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I don't think most heterosexuals have to think about their sexuality.

They don't.

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But just re-read that sentence and replace "heterosexuals" with "homosexuals"... doesn't that strike you as untrue?

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Well, that's because not all statements are equivalent. I would agree that most heterosexuals don't have to consider their sexual orientation, but believe most homosexuals do.
 

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Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 
Chris, I'm so glad you posted that. I totally misread the post you are referring to and couldn't for the life of me figure out why she made a reference to baboons.
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
It is important and necessary to hide who you really are from everyone who loves you and everyone you love because if they knew the REAL you, they'd run shrieking from the room.

*has tongue surgically removed from cheek*

ETA: I'm actually posting from a closet, which is interesting (if only to me) in this context.
 

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Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
 

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Originally posted by kojabu:
I've come out to my family twice. As Pix said, it takes time. For you it'll seem like forever, but for them it might be something that they just learned whereas you've been thinking about it, etc for a lot longer than them.

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Originally posted by General Sax:
I do not see that anyones sexuality is a decent topic. As for the ritual of 'coming out' I suppose it is analogous to telling the parents that you have done 'it' in my world. The value is just shocking them into recognizing you as an adult, perhaps buying some independence and space.

I do not see it as surprising that it usually creates a rift. The only bravery involved is a hidden desire to shatter ties that are vulnerable to breaches of decorum. We are each of us many things, a man should not take every lust and violent impulse and make it public, living in an upstanding manner is and always has been about maintaining a persona, it is a virtue that all civilized adults must embrace. It is a shame that the art of wearing your mask has fallen into disrepute and a virtue has been made of indecent exposure. Come on, we all know what is under the coat, polite people do not open it in public.

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Originally posted by katharina:
kojabu, sexuality and everything accompanying is a complicated subject for almost everyone. It requires thought and sorting out from active homosexuals and from religious heterosexual virgins. It's always complicated.

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Originally posted by starLisa:

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Originally posted by kojabu:
I've come out to my family twice. As Pix said, it takes time. For you it'll seem like forever, but for them it might be something that they just learned whereas you've been thinking about it, etc for a lot longer than them.

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Twice? That sounds interesting. Had they forgotten, or did they think you'd changed your mind in between?

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I came out to them about two different things.
 

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Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
Actually, I assumed I was going to be disowned when I came out. It was a GIVEN.

Everytime my parents told me they loved me I thought "Yeah right."

Anger and resentment built up inside me when they hadn't even rejected me yet. I pulled away from hugs and scowled at them.

And when I came out, all that melted away. It was rocky for a couple of years. They sure weren't happy about it. And it weirds them out to this day, even though I married a man... But they didn't reject me. And now I know when they say they love me they mean it.

That is why you come out to your parents.

Pix
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
Pix, my gay boyfriend in high school was convinced that his parents would disown him (especially his father) if he came out to them...which is why he always brought me over or told them he was going out with me on Friday night (he did...but we went to the gay coffeehouse). When he finally did come out, they didn't disown him. They were surprised and shocked (his mom tried to hold onto the hope that he was bi), but they realized that he's still the son that they love.

Actually, both of my close gay friends had experiences like that. The other one came out earlier, before he finished high school at moved out, and by the time he left his mom was talking about cute guys with him.

It definitely helps my friends feel closer to their parents, and I think in time, the parents felt closer to the children as well. I mean, even just telling my parents that I had a boyfriend, or admitting to them I'd kissed someone was a little tough because I think parents kind of want to hold on to this idea they have of their children. It's not the same for me at all, but when you feel like there's something about you that your parents wouldn't like, you kind of want them to know so that you know that they accept you. Everybody, I think, wants to feel accepted on some level.

Just sayin'.

-pH
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
Aw. How cute. Talking about cute men with her gay son. Adorable.
I don't even know what the heck I am... so I can't even really come out at all as I seem to be madly in love with a man, but women are rather nice looking. So I don't think I am actually anything at all....
I've hinted and only got scorn and bible verses quoted at me. I feel I should STOP being honest with my relatives. They hate it.
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
I thought it was so cute when he told me that, Syn.

With both of my friends, the fathers had a little bit of a tougher time with it than the mothers. I don't know why, but...it seems like in general, heterosexual men are more likely to be uncomfortable with gay men (of course, there are many exeptions, thank God), while heterosexual women usually don't have as much of a problem with lesbians. It doesn't make sense to me, really.

-pH
 

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Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
pH: You'd be surprised the kind of scorn I've gotten from straight women. But ya, I've got it a lot easier than gay guys do.

Syn: You sound a lot like me. Once I figured out that I liked both, just in entirely different ways, it made more sense to me. And don't get caught up in which you like better, either becuase it's just so different you can't compare.
 

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Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
 

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Originally posted by pH:
I thought it was so cute when he told me that, Syn.

With both of my friends, the fathers had a little bit of a tougher time with it than the mothers. I don't know why, but...it seems like in general, heterosexual men are more likely to be uncomfortable with gay men (of course, there are many exeptions, thank God), while heterosexual women usually don't have as much of a problem with lesbians. It doesn't make sense to me, really.

-pH

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I think it's also typically easier for the opposite-gender parent to be okay with it; from what I've seen, fathers tend to take their gay sons uncloseting much harder (or with more anger) than mothers do, and vice-versa.
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
I was just thinking the same thing, eros. Because say, mothers probably grew up wanting to be with a man and being attracted to a man, so they can relate to the feelings gay sons are having more than fathers could. Even fathers of heterosexual daughters have issues with them being attracted to men.

-pH
 

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Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
 
It doesn't make sense to me, really.

Because for whatever reason, be it genetic, learned, or both, many people seem to have a visceral, negative reaction to men that act submissive. A man that is not manly is wrong to them, on a deep and probably unconscious level that is justified by religious, social, or ick-factor explanations. Women together? Not as big a deal because no machismo is threatened, no "property" is taken, and it's kinda hot. But you might notice that lesbians who act or try to look like men tend to get more scorn than "lipstick" lesbians.

I consider it to be much like an atavistic fear of the dark, or spiders. An unfortunate throwback to times when survival was tougher, and one that can be and should be overcome.
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
Hmmmm. I have a visceral reaction to submissive men that is not at all negative. Kiss the red pumps, baby!
 

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Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 
On the other hand, I'm gay and I have a visceral negative reaction to men who are too nelly. Lots of homosexual men do, in my experience, so there's something there that isn't specifically due to any "ick" factor surrounding sexual activity.
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
Well, 'submissive' and 'gay' are two different things. A lot of gay men are very manly, so it's weird that the stereotype is one of weakness. I mean, the Roman army wasn't a bunch of push-overs.

ETA: Now I'm thinking about togas and gladiators and stuff Ignore me.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Nor was the Roman army generally homosexual. There was certainly homosexuality in Rome, but it was seen as a "Greek" thing that manly Romans didn't do. The rumor that followed Ceaser all his life about him and the King Nicomedes was a disparaging rumor meant to knock a little shine off his image.
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 

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Originally posted by Olivet:
Hmmmm. I have a visceral reaction to submissive men that is not at all negative. Kiss the red pumps, baby!

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I'm with you, Olivet. But I have a line on how much submissiveness I can handle before it gets annoying. It's complicated.

-pH
 

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Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 
And "submissive" and "nelly" are completely different things. "Nelly" is swishy, mincing, hyper-effeminant, and I've seen it in theoretically straight men as well as gay men. I realize my negative reaction is entirely sexual. I'd add "aesthetic" but I really like guys in drag (in a totally non-sexual way) and I have gay male friends who are fun to hang out with that are nelly. I find nelly men sexually unnattractive, though I can be friends with them when that's not an issue.
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 

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With both of my friends, the fathers had a little bit of a tougher time with it than the mothers. I don't know why, but...it seems like in general, heterosexual men are more likely to be uncomfortable with gay men (of course, there are many exeptions, thank God), while heterosexual women usually don't have as much of a problem with lesbians. It doesn't make sense to me, really.

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I think for a lot of women, the ideal of their sexuality is so intertwined with the ideal of 'character' and looks that for many women their sexuality is seen as a kind of super friendship, whereas for men I think this is much less true. That is, I think many men would have nothing to do with their girlfriends/wives, if it weren't for the fact that there was a sexual attraction there.

I know, I know. It's not that way on Hatrack. Everyone here's spouse is their best friend, etc., but I do think nonetheless there is some level of truth to this.
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
KarlEd, I said as much in my post at the bottom of the page, and I agree with you.

Katie, I was thinking mostly of the homosexual practices that are often connected to Mithraism, which was very popular among the Roman Armies. I mean, not that I know this personally, just from reading a book called The History of Sex which stated as much. (Though I do not mean to assert that practitioners of mystery religions are all necessarily gay, and do not intend to insult those of this board who practice secret rites.)
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Mithraism was later, during the Empire. I think there's a different in the social mores between the classical period and the Empire.
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
But it was still Rome.
 

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Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 

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That is, I think many men would have nothing to do with their girlfriends/wives, if it weren't for the fact that there was a sexual attraction there.

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But it was still Rome.

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I've seen this in a lot of men. In fact a lot of people only socialize with people within the set of their sexual preference who they find attractive. Many straight men don't want to be seen with women they don't find sexually attractive, and many gay men won't even speak to other gay men they don't find attractive. I can sort of understand some of the underlying psychology in this, but I think it's mostly something best overcome.

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Sure. You should like people for who they are, not what they look like. Absolutely.

What I'm trying to say, though, is that I think that sexuality and friendship are two totally different things for men, while for women, the concepts are much more intertwined as an ideal, so that for women two women being sexually involved isn't much different from a man and a woman being sexually involved. In both cases, they're just super friends.

This is actually a complicated subject. I don't think Chris's idea that it is strictly a power issue is wrong, exactly, but I do think it's so vague as to be somewhat unuseful. I do see some truth to it, but...I can think of other reasons why homosexuality is reacted to much more negatively by men than women.

For instance, there is a trait of being sensual that is very much frowned by many men. You frequently see an ideal of being above pain, forging through obstacles, being unaffected by your surroundings. Inasmuch as gay men are stereotypically seen as being 'sensual/emotional' (artsy, interior decorators, crying when they get a scratch, etc.), this rubs a lot of men the wrong way.

While we could say that this is neanderthalic, what have you, as anyone can tell you, it's a quality that's hard to achieve and is worthwhile in a lot of instances.
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
You said:

"Nor was the Roman army generally homosexual. There was certainly homosexuality in Rome, but it was seen as a "Greek" thing that manly Romans didn't do. "

I said homosexual acts were reputedly part of this mystery religion, which was, in fact, very popular in the Roman Army. There were laws against homosexuality, but the Mithraists got away with it because you don't mess with the Roman Army, if you know what's good for you.

Which is to say that they were so unmanly that the manly men would sooner soil their togas than try to punish them.

So, in reader's digest form, "Roman soldiers+otherRomansoldiers=not nelly"

"But that was a greek thing that Romans didn't do"

"Mithraists did, and the Roman army was largly mithraist"

"But that was later"

"It was still Rome."

Is that clearer? That's what I meant when I said it was rome.

ETA:email
 

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Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 
I've never really caught on to the whole "Lesbians are kinda hot." sentiment.

I mean I COMPLETELY relate to the sentiment that girls are hot and desirable dont get me wrong I guess its the thought that I lose value to a girl if she is trying to share me with another girl.
 

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Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
Well then no worries, as a lesbian wouldn't be trying to share you with another girl.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
That's an oversimplification of it. In other words, there's more going than the enforcers of the laws being afraid of the manliest manly men and their religion. As in, the Roman army WAS the enforcer of the law, so who exactly was going to enforce it? I wonder if the prevelance of it had something to do with stationing an army for years at a time in the middle of nowhere?

It's complicated. Saying "the Roman Army was gay and therefore it was fine among that manliest of organizations" isn't accurate.

It's part of why Rome is fascinating. On the one hand, they absolutely adored classical Greece and copied all sorts of things. On the other hand, calling someone Greek could definitely be an insult, and Caesar was plagued by rumors of a homosexual affair from decades before. The reality of what they borrowed and approved of and what it meant to be Roman is more interesting when the descriptions of Romans mores and how they changed and where is accurate.
 

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Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
 

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Originally posted by BlackBlade:
I've never really caught on to the whole "Lesbians are kinda hot." sentiment.

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Originally posted by ElJay:
Well then no worries, as a lesbian wouldn't be trying to share you with another girl.

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Never had one use the line as a means to not date me So either I just never came across one on the dating scene, or they decided to try swinging for the other team when I came along </fantasy>

The girl I took to the prom down the road decided she was gay (I think I saw some of the signs in HS but I just don't think she had come to terms with it) She's a great girl, I hope she finds happiness.

I just think even if you did like the idea of 2 hot girls, you have diminishing returns. Whats the difference between 1000 hot girls and 1001 hot girls?

For me the diminishing returns start at 2. I just think its hot that a girl loves me enough to not even consider other options. I'm pretty sure the wife (Tiffany) feels the same way.
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 

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Originally posted by Storm Saxon:
What I'm trying to say, though, is that I think that sexuality and friendship are two totally different things for men, while for women, the concepts are much more intertwined as an ideal, so that for women two women being sexually involved isn't much different from a man and a woman being sexually involved. In both cases, they're just super friends.

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I dunno. I mean, I've never been sexually involved with a woman. But for me with men, being super friends isn't enough, relationship/sex wise. Even being an attractive super friend isn't enough. My boyfriend and I were friends first. Then we were best friends. Then we were super best friends who found each other ridiculously attractive. I mean, we are super best friends. But the sexual element is definitely there, and I honestly don't think there are many women (though I might be wrong) who think there is no difference between being really really good friends and being wow you're so hot let's have sex really really good friends.

Edit: You can recognize that someone is attractive and not be sexually attracted to him/her, as well.

-pH
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
Well, I was going for teh funny (and there is some debate about how widespread teh gay was in that period). But I do not see how what I said disagreed with what you said, which is why I'm a bit puzzled by your tone.

The rulers of Rome may not have liked it, but since the army was the enforcer of the law, they couldn't do a lot about it. I know that.

But that doesn't mean that Roman Army was a bunch of limp-wristed guys singing show tunes.

I really don't get why, when I think were actually saying the same thing, you think we're arguing.

There were gay people in the Roman Army, who were generally left alone. Mithraism was pretty widespread for a while. They may have thought of it as a Greek thing (Romans were big on Greek stuff), but it was still happenning in Rome. That was all I meant.

And that being gay doesn't mean being weak, though it may be seen that way.
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
Greek homosexuality wasn't like today's homosexuality. It seemed closer to pedarasy.
They even had a form of that in Japan... It was interesting.
 

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Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
 

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I honestly don't think there are many women (though I might be wrong) who think there is no difference between being really really good friends and being wow you're so hot let's have sex really really good friends.

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Originally posted by blacwolve:
What's weird to me is the guys that have no problem with bisexuals in theory; but would never date a bisexual girl. I've talked to several guys who feel that way, and none of them have had any reasons beyond, "but then there are twice as many people for my girlfriend to cheat on me with!"

Does anyone have any ideas about why this is?

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I've met more guys who are the opposite. I dated a guy who spent far too much time trying to convince me that I was bisexual because I know when girls are hot and because I have, in the past, kissed a few girls. Except that was because he thought that a) that was the reason that I wasn't into sex, and b) if we had a threesome, I would suddenly be into sex.

Edited to add: I also don't understand the threesome mentality.

-pH
 

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Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
 

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Originally posted by kojabu:

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Originally posted by starLisa:

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Originally posted by kojabu:
I've come out to my family twice. As Pix said, it takes time. For you it'll seem like forever, but for them it might be something that they just learned whereas you've been thinking about it, etc for a lot longer than them.

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Twice? That sounds interesting. Had they forgotten, or did they think you'd changed your mind in between?

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I came out to them about two different things.

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What's weird to me is the guys that have no problem with bisexuals in theory; but would never date a bisexual girl. I've talked to several guys who feel that way, and none of them have had any reasons beyond, "but then there are twice as many people for my girlfriend to cheat on me with!"

Does anyone have any ideas about why this is?

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Originally posted by kojabu:
All of mine are sexual orientation/gender identity related.

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