I don't know rather to laugh or scream. In this list of "top" High Schools in the Country the following are excluded (I kid you not): 1. Private Schools of any sort 2. Schools with an average SAT above 1300.
The survey also does not test how well students did on AP and IB exams, only if they took them.
How can they claim that their list, which contains a collection of fairly obscure schools, represents the élite of American education? Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
Tell me I didn't read that a public (*PUBLIC*) high school has rigorous admission.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
It was a magnet school, their not that unusual.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
I guess I can see exclusing the private ones, but what kind of sense does it make to exclude the ones with good SAT scores? Posted by Risuena (Member # 2924) on :
I don't know rather to laugh or scream. In this list of "top" High Schools in the Country the following are excluded (I kid you not): 1. Private Schools of any sort 2. Schools with an average SAT above 1300.
The survey also does not test how well students did on AP and IB exams, only if they took them.
How can they claim that their list, which contains a collection of fairly obscure schools, represents the élite of American education?
If you'd read the FAQ, you would see that Mathews has responses for all of your questions and others.
For example, private schools are excluded because he cannot obtain enough data.
He only excludes charter or magnet schools with high SAT or ACT averages. And he does so because the goal of the Challenge Index is
quote:to honor schools that have done the best job in persuading average students to take college-level courses and tests. It does not work with schools that have no, or almost no, average students. The idea is to create a list that measures how good schools are in challenging all students, and not just how high their students’ test scores are.
And for only counting the number of tests given and not the results he says:
quote:I decided not to count passing rates in the way schools had done in the past because I found that most American high schools kept those rates artificially high by allowing only A students to take the courses. In some other instances, they opened the courses to all but encouraged only the best students to take the tests.
I remember when the Challenge Index first came out in the late 90s and reading how Mathews was very concerned with access to APs and IBs, and the differences between rich and poor districts. And it seems to me that a lot of his methodological choices reflect that concern. There's still plenty to argue and disagree with, but I think he does a decent job of justifying his methodology.
Posted by JonnyNotSoBravo (Member # 5715) on :
Thanks for explaining that Risuena!
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
You know what I've noticed? Schools in this county that have really active PTSAs tend to be higher up (R.Montgomery and BCC) while schools with less active PTSAs are further down (like us in the six-or-seven-hundred-ish range). Those schools do tend to be the better ones in this district.
--j_k
Posted by LisB1121 (Member # 1703) on :
As someone who graduated in good standing from #2 on the "Top U.S. Schools" List, I have to snort. I don't want to downplay my high school education, which I think was really quite good, and made intro college courses seem easy. . . but I really hope it's not the second best public high school education that could be acquired in this country.
I find the ranking, even using just the data they collected a little, uh, off? The top school has over 14 tests taken per graduating senior, yet only 1 in 10 graduating senior can claim a passing score? Ouch. I realize that quite of few of those tests may have been taking by student in lower year, but can still infer the seniors produced a *lot* non-passing scores. Are those kids actually prepared for success at college? Or life? Who knows?
Whereas number 5 on the list has half as many test taken per graduating senior, but 90% of the senior have passed a least one exam. Nice. Whether or not those students are actually prepared for college, they clearly learned *something* in at least one class. Shouldn't that school be higher on the list?
:Shrug: I certainly support the expansion of AP and IB programs so that any student who wants to take college level sources, can. I personally prefer the IB program which emphasized practical application, analysis, and writing. I know I did more formal lab work for my IB Bio class then most freshman bio majors at my college. AP does a pretty good job encouraging analytical skills, but I felt AP required more regurgitation of rote knowledge and "test taking skills". I noticed that some of my classmates who had perfectly good command of a subject in the classroom didn't "get" the AP test format. This observation perhaps contradicts my above point. Well, I know that my classmates didn't understand AP tests off the bat because we practiced taking tests in the AP format. I'm not sure what the final data for my class would have looked like.
I'm also confused about removing high schools with very high SAT averages. Surely students that been done well with college level material will on average do better on the SAT? Colleges certainly seem to think there is a link between success in college and high SAT scores. Is a reverse correlation not true?
Eh, just some thoughts....
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
My HS didn't seem to make the top 1200, and yet, here I am. I guess my HS had a handful of really smart kids, and a whole slew of dummies Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Many schools that want to be viewed as competitive just make everybody take certain AP courses (typically Calc + one of the English ones, plus maybe something else), and then mandate they take the test.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
The highschool that I graduated from was 459th on the list. I thought I got a really good education there, so I'm glad it made the list. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Four Dallas area high schools made the top twenty. I'm not surprised. Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
My husband went to a private school in the same town as school #6, and said they went out of their way to try to "recruit" him after he kicked their school's math team in one of those dorky test-taking competitions.
And I agree that IB provided a much better grounding in actual critical thinking skills than my AP classes did, and it was thanks to IB that I was so well prepared for college coursework. AP seemed far more focused on teaching to the test and writing essays judged purely on adherence to formula rather than content.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Texas encourages adolescents who don't test well to drop out so that highschools can pass "No Kids Left Behind" testing...
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
Risuena, I read the FAQ before I posted this, and I can attest that it was aburd. If Newsweek wants to make a list of the public secondary schools with a lot of kids taking AP and IB exams, fine, but to refer to said list as representing the élite of American education is clearly disingenuous. This is sensationalism at its worst, writing headlines to sell papers rather than to inform as to the actual content of them, even though, in this case, the headline is very damaging to schools which did not make the list becouse of the requirements which deliberetly exclude them. I am not a great reader of Newsweek, but this has done little to incourage my consumption of U.S. media.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
my high school is 319 on the list. Not too shabby. (I can't actually get the whole list; I searched my HS's name, and of course they brag about it on their website's front page.)
So why did so many of us get such a crappy education there? I really can only list a few classes that taught me anything...
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Isn't that supposed to be a list of PUBLIC high schools? Or is it a mix of private and public?
Number 9 on the list, the International Academy isn't a public school in the way I think of them. A good friend of mine went there (instead of the two public high schools she should have chosen between, one of which I went to). But she had to go through an admissions process rivaled only by what she had to go through when she applied to a college. It's true that the academics there are friggin outstanding, students graduate with an IB usually. Despite the fact that it's tuition free, I wouldn't consider it public unless ANYONE can go there, not just anyone who gets past an admissions process. There are plenty of kids at my high school and the others in the district that academically could have made it into that school, and I know a ton of kids from the IA who were complete failures.
And this wasn't covered on there, but the IA has no school dances or sports, you have to go to one of the "lesser" high schools in the district in order to do extra curriculars. I'm not sure about bands or orchestra, I would assume they do in fact have them.
Posted by LisB1121 (Member # 1703) on :
My opinion of Newsweek/U.S. news ranking systems is pretty low in general. A big chunk of the assesment for colleges and univeristies is a survey that asks deans of other schools what scores they would give said school. Huh?
Obviously schools that have good reputations (like Ivy league) tend to maintain that reputation unless something drastic changes. Whereas newer schools that are working hard to create really good programs may not get noticed just because they don't have established names. The ranking for professional schools is even more useless and elitist, in my opinion, and I know law students that have chosed their school based on U.S. News rankings.
That said, I think examining which high schools give student solid college prep is a good thing. AP and IB classes can be great oppurtunities for students. I just don't think this ranking system does a great job of actually assessing student preperation for college or what they are getting out of their classes.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
What the frack? There were a grand total of 3 Indiana schools in that entire 1300. They were all rich Indianapolis schools. If he's trying to honor schools who do well with what they've got, he needs to get the frell away from rich schools. And I musta seen a billion schools Ill., NY, Texas, etc. I have little to no respect for that survey now.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Newsweek also rated my college insanely high. They should have taken off points because it was in Nebraska. Hello, anyone there? NEBRASKA for heaven's sake!
Posted by Hamson (Member # 7808) on :
Yeah, Lyrhawn, I agree with you 100% there. I have two friends going to IA right now- and while they are both good students, I doubt either of them would think that their school is top 10 worthy.
You basically have to apply there, and like Lyrhawn said, while it doesn't cost any money, you also just can't waltz right in and attend.
They don't have any sports teams either, and I think most of the kids that do sports there play in the district I go to, or possibly any other ones around here.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:The ten states with the most schools on the list:
When you consider how populous California, New York, Texas, and Florida are, I think Virginia has a strong case to claim the best education system in the country! Of course, that's if this system of ranking is meaningful in any real way. My high school is in the top 100, so I'm going to say it is to some degree. Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
I didn't look through all 1300 but I agree with Alcon, little respect now. Which three rich indy schools was it?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Isn't that supposed to be a list of PUBLIC high schools? Or is it a mix of private and public?
Number 9 on the list, the International Academy isn't a public school in the way I think of them. A good friend of mine went there (instead of the two public high schools she should have chosen between, one of which I went to). But she had to go through an admissions process rivaled only by what she had to go through when she applied to a college. It's true that the academics there are friggin outstanding, students graduate with an IB usually. Despite the fact that it's tuition free, I wouldn't consider it public unless ANYONE can go there, not just anyone who gets past an admissions process.
Sounds like a magnet school to me. It's administered by the school district, right? That would make it a public school.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by fugu13: Many schools that want to be viewed as competitive just make everybody take certain AP courses (typically Calc + one of the English ones, plus maybe something else), and then mandate they take the test.
This is quite true. I was made to think that a high score on the A.P. Lit test was very common at my school, and a practical must have for going to a good college. I had already gotten a 4 on Language/comp, and a 4 on government, but when it came around to the lit test I sucked it up and read hard for the whole year...
Anyway I ended up getting a 5, and only found out after I graduated that it was the first 5 at my school in around 10 years.... so I guess they had overstated just how vital it was.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
AP tests were far more valuable to me than SAT scores. I got out of several intro level college courses based on my AP tests. That allowed me to get a lot more education for my buck than I would have otherwise.
I wish my HS would have pushed AP tests more, and SATs less. I would have taken 3-4 more APs, had I known what a difference they would have made.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
quote:Isn't that supposed to be a list of PUBLIC high schools? Or is it a mix of private and public?
Number 9 on the list, the International Academy isn't a public school in the way I think of them. A good friend of mine went there (instead of the two public high schools she should have chosen between, one of which I went to). But she had to go through an admissions process rivaled only by what she had to go through when she applied to a college. It's true that the academics there are friggin outstanding, students graduate with an IB usually. Despite the fact that it's tuition free, I wouldn't consider it public unless ANYONE can go there, not just anyone who gets past an admissions process.
Sounds like a magnet school to me. It's administered by the school district, right? That would make it a public school.
A consortium of 13 different districts I believe.
Still, I'm leery of a system that uses public funds to fund a really good school, that only lets the "best of the best" attend, and shortchanges the perhaps lesser equipped or just plain unlucky kids. What message does that send to kids? Hope you're smart or your parents have connections, otherwise you're screwed.
Posted by seven (Member # 5367) on :
quote:Originally posted by Alcon: What the frack? There were a grand total of 3 Indiana schools in that entire 1300. They were all rich Indianapolis schools. If he's trying to honor schools who do well with what they've got, he needs to get the frell away from rich schools. And I musta seen a billion schools Ill., NY, Texas, etc. I have little to no respect for that survey now.
Yeah. Can't schools who have enough money to pay for everyone to take AP tests just automatically get high ratings on that list? AP tests are very expensive, I wouldn't blame people for not taking them because they can't AFFORD them.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
I'm not sure how much the AP tests actually cost, but they were only $10 at my school (same as Alcon's) though that does add up if you are taking quite a few.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
5 AP tests, even if they were $100 each, could equal a whole semester of entry-level college classes that you don't have to take. Well worth the investment.
Posted by seven (Member # 5367) on :
For me its 82 dollars for each AP test. I suppose it could be worth it in the long run if you pass them.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
sarah: only a few of them were $10, since they were subsidized by the school.
Also, Alcon, there are more than three Indiana schools on the overall list. I think it was five, and one was in evansville, and the other whereever the indiana academy is (since it was on the list).
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
AP tests were something like $50 at my school. I took three of them, and even though I got threes or higher on all of them, I still only got credit for the one that I got a four on at my college, but that one four saved me from taking two writing classes required of every freshman and sophmore, so it was more than worth it, even though I felt screwed out of the other two classes that I felt I should've gotten credit for.
Regardless, if you think you have a chance at doing reasonably well, I'd call it an investment in future tuition costs.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
Oh ok, oops.
Isn't one of the Indiana acadamies (sciences) in Muncie, and the arts one in Carmel?
Posted by Luet13 (Member # 9274) on :
The Newsweek Top High Schools issue always, without fail, makes me laugh hysterically.
I went to a magnet H.S. in Chicago and the principal was always going on and on about how our school was the #1 school in the city. Blah, blah, blah. I hated H.S. (possibly because I went to the 7/8th grade program; there is nothing quite like going to a H.S. when you're 12) but I will admit that it made college seem like a breeze. That or I was taking a nice 4 year nap.
At any rate, my H.S. never makes it onto that list. I am always tempted to send those issues to my former principal with a small note about how WRONG she is/was.
Question: Was anyone else's H.S. administration run by former gym teachers or is that just a Chicago institution?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
APs were free at my school, but only about 1/3 of kids were in one or more AP class.
Posted by Celaeno (Member # 8562) on :
1,200 schools and not a single from Hawaii, my state. Is anyone surprised? I'm not.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
The fact that Montclair High School is 211 on that list is either,
a) a sad commentary on the standards used to generate this list, or
b) a sad commentary on the state of education in this country.
I'm not sure which.
Having taught in Montclair for three years, I can tell you the high school has no business being on the list at all, let alone in the top 20 percent.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
The fact that Montclair is the 8th best ranked school in NJ is an even bigger joke. I mean, MHS at 211 and Governor Livingston at 882? That's ridiculous.
That's like ranking Rutgers as the 8th best basketball team in the country, and Duke as 45th.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
quote:Question: Was anyone else's H.S. administration run by former gym teachers or is that just a Chicago institution?
This is actually quite common.
Gym teachers have far less "out of the classroom" work to do when compared with other teachers. They don't have the amount of papers to grade as english or social science teachers, or the amount of labs and tests to grade as math or science teachers. Less time is needed before and after school, and parent correspondence is often next to nothing.
In short, physical education teachers have more time to take college courses toward getting their administrative certification. I've also seen a trend of special education teachers getting admin certs, too.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: 5 AP tests, even if they were $100 each, could equal a whole semester of entry-level college classes that you don't have to take. Well worth the investment.
It rarely works out that way though. For instance many students do two English Aps, or gov and history, but it only cancels one class in college, there is no doubling up. Also you can take a bunch of bio and math Aps and have it not matter because you are in a liberal arts major.
The truth about Aps allowing you to "skip" ahead in college doesn't measure up to the hype. It gets you out of a few intro classes, but it isn't going to put you a year ahead in your -real- education. Learning how to be a good student often takes this much time when you get to college, and many people never learn anything- I meet them every day.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow: [QUOTE] In short, physical education teachers have more time to take college courses toward getting their administrative certification. I've also seen a trend of special education teachers getting admin certs, too.
Parallel with the common wisdoms: Football and basketball coaches are Math teachers, but Science and English teachers are track coaches. That was the way it always was at my school.
Also yah, phys ed people and deans of students moved up to admin, while teachers with more rewarding classroom jobs stayed put.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: t rarely works out that way though. For instance many students do two English Aps, or gov and history, but it only cancels one class in college, there is no doubling up. Also you can take a bunch of bio and math Aps and have it not matter because you are in a liberal arts major.
The truth about Aps allowing you to "skip" ahead in college doesn't measure up to the hype. It gets you out of a few intro classes, but it isn't going to put you a year ahead in your -real- education. Learning how to be a good student often takes this much time when you get to college, and many people never learn anything- I meet them every day.
Poo poo it all you like, but I skipped out of 2 semesters of intro Bio, didn't have to take Calc, didn't have to take intro history, and got credit for 2 semesters of basic lit courses by taking 4 AP tests.
I got to register for classes each semester before 99% of the people in my class, meaning that I got to pick my schedule, my teachers, and my labs without having to every have a backup. I also got to skip out of difficult classes which wouldn't have furthered my academic goals, but would have taken study time away from the classes I really cared about.
The time and money I invested in those 4 AP tests was worth essentially an entire college semester for me. Not only did it save several thousand dollars in tuition costs, but it gave me more time to take electives, more ability to get the classes I needed, and the ability to set my schedule any way I wanted.
Posted by Celaeno (Member # 8562) on :
I completely agree with MightyCow on this one. The extra units meant I could register earlier than my classmates. Being as colleges these days never seem to offer enough of the classes in high demand, I found this invaluable.
And with three AP exams, I passed out of a business statistics class, my natural science core, my math core, and my social science core. I got to start on my philosophy major earlier and didn't have to bother with lower-division courses in fields in which I had little interest.
Without those AP exams, I'd never be able to graduate with a double major across schools and a minor.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
I managed to avoid the basic "expos writing" requirement was one of the most poorly taught courses in the school, gained 3 credits in history, and managed to "place out" of my entire mathematics requirement - I placed in to their Calc class satisfying half of it, then placed out of that class with my AP score, satisfying the other half. I didn't have to take a math course at college whatsoever.
And I had a similar experience to MightyCow, in that those 10 credits allowed me more flexibility in scheduling and housing, because after overloading my first two semesters, I was essentially 16 credits ahead of most of my classmates.
I had friends who came into college with 30 AP credits or more, starting effectively as sophomores, and a guy I met while studying abroad had managed 62 AP credits in high school and entered school effectively as a junior. These students jumped immediately to Calc 3 as freshmen, and avoided the "weed-out" classes of Physics, Chem and Bio 101.
All these people were math and science majors, though. Most of the liberal arts folks like myself didn't have so many AP credits, and having so many wouldn't have really helped satisfy that many requirements.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:Texas encourages adolescents who don't test well to drop out so that highschools can pass "No Kids Left Behind" testing...
I think that's actually one of the dumbest things I've ever read. Yeah - schools love high drop out rates - only graduating half the freshman is a sign of a very good school.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I got out of all sorts of requirements getting in my way through AP credit. The school I'm at has a pretty decent lab sciences requirement -- AP Physics (both) and AP Biology got me out of that (and the credit hours for lab sciences would have been hard to fit into my schedule given my other interests and being a transfer student). AP Microeconomics let me take Intermediate Microeconomics right away instead of wasting my time in intro. AP Calc (both) made it so my math minor (it started out as a math major at another school, but this is still true) basically fell into my lap.
I took some other AP tests, but I think those're the ones that benefitted me. The AP Lang and AP Lit tests weren't much of a benefit because of my SAT II Writing score, and I had scores just below cutoffs on some others.
I didn't even take the classes for several of my AP tests, there's no requirement you do so. I just studied up on the subjects.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
My AP classes got me out of exactly two classes - Engligh 101, and British lit survey class. The chemistry and biology would have gotten me out of the general ed biology and chemistry classes, but I took the series for majors for both for my minors. Basically, because I had several areas I focused on, the biology and chemistry and psychology for non majors didn't help at all.
I got to register earlier. That was nice. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:I didn't even take the classes for several of my AP tests, there's no requirement you do so.
Really? That' not what they told us at my HS...
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
And only graduating half the freshmen isn't a sign of a good high school, its a sign of a poor (in the sense of wealth) one, but I can't tell if you were being sarcastic.
Posted by GodSpoken (Member # 9358) on :
I am a bit amazed but heartened to see so many schools listed from Texas. Dont jump me, you smart Texas kids, until you finish reading this.
I am old (have kids in high school and college) and both are of the AP bent. We have been in Texas for 4 years now. One of the first things I was astounded at when we moved here was the general lack of knowledge or awareness of anything in the world outside the usual OMG dating drama, and the low level of personal responsibility and maturity of the high school kids I was meeting. Some are clueless as to the English language, many appear to feel they are entitled to the world without effort and have maturity levels of what I previously saw in middle school kids elsewhere.
Then I met the parents. Apparently a very large number of parents feel their kids are idiots, are incapable of making any decision above whether to wear socks or not, and will immediately become pregnant drug addicts if let out of sight for more than an hour, or are allowed to choose classes, reading material, media etc. on their own. Speaking with their kids amounts to checking for "lip", and "whoopin 'em" when they are "out of line".
And in recognition of all this, the local high school well known for budget, athletics, high test scores, etc. has fewer than 60% graduates who have any plans at all after high school.
Scares me.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
kq: they likely thought you were, its a common misconception. Also, they might want to discourage taking AP tests as a way to get out of classes -- just sign up for some, then don't show up. Costly, but effective.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
The fact that the school paid for the tests may have had something to do with it.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Think about it carefully, fugu. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
*sigh* I think crapping on Texas is the last acceptable prejudice.
Amazingly, in a humongous state in area, population and demographic, there's going to be some variation in experiences. My high school in Texas had a high graduation rate and 97% of the class of 1992 went to college.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
*snort*
And Texas is the only state whose residents get stereotyped and poked fun at? Please, I grew up in California. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I'm not going to get into a contest of who is more persecuted.
I'd just like to see the vaunted humanistic open-mindedness apply to states people don't like as well.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Almost all the controversy has been centered on the inner city schools in Houston's school district. Most of it has been quite provable, and has more to do with Houston being touted as an exemplary school district by the sitting President and then-Secretary of Education than any particular yen to knock on Texas. That school district was one of the shining examples of the success of a NCLB-like system that the Bush administration put forward. After it became clear the extent of the cover up there, Houston and the education secretary were dropped like hot potatoes by the Bush administration.
And you know well enough that aspectre knocks on everybody . Nor does he claim "humanistic open-mindedness" as far as I recall; I think he's quite willing to assert his biases.
I know there are plenty of very good schools in Texas; heck, I have some cousins who went through one or another of them and seem to have turned out halfway decent (don't ask me which one, somewhere in Austin is all I know). Houston, though, is a legitimate example of a troubled school district where fraud and shoddy records keeping covered up those perfectly understandable troubles in an attempt to reflect improvements that were not there, coincidentally covering up any improvements that might have actually happened.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Hey, according to Garrison Keillor, "The state of American humor is Arkansas." Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I didn't take any AP tests, but I did CLEP out of some English classes just last year. It was great - saved a ton of money because one test was $50 and counted for two semesters of English composition. At UAB's prices, those six hours would have cost me $889.
Another way to get a head start on college is dual enrollment - the junior college I attended allowed this, I went to class with a girl in high school. She was enrolled in a public high school and took online and weekend classes at the junior college. With those classes plus her AP credits, she was going to graduate from high school with most of her core curriculum courses finished. She said she was going to be only six hours shy of being a college junior at her high school graduation. Pretty cool.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
My boyfriend started college as a sophomore because of AP tests and it was invaluable to him. It meant by the end of his first year he had junior standing, and could get good internships. So he was able to get into a very competitive and highly paid summer internship for the government that he would never have been applicable for otherwise.
And he also took several AP tests without having taken the class, so it certainly is possible.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Three of my cousins went to public high schools in Texas, in Houston actually, and my aunt teachers 9th grade there. They all came out very intelligent, not to mention stuffy and arrogant, but I blame that on the fact that they're rich Republicans with a Big Texas Complex.
Though it's not entirely a fair argument FOR the Houston education system. They actually live in Kingwood, which is an insanely rich suburb of Houston that was more or less annexed by Houston, and it not administrates it, collects taxes from it and it's officially part of the school system. That's an extra five or six thousand kids to keep in mind when you're talking about Houston's school district.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Hey...that was my high school. Kingwood High School, in the development just north of Houston. It was a great school, academically. Not everyone in the boundries for that school was rich.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Musta been a big city then, every house I saw the few times I've visited has a garage with more square footage than my house and garage combined. The median price for a house in that city is like three times than what the median price is for a house in my neighborhood, and I live in a rather nice off middle class city myself in a Detroit suburb.
Regardless, I never said the whole district was rich, it very well may not be, but my cousins, who I was referring to, certainly are. Even so, calling it a rich city wouldn't be an unfair labeling for a city known for luxury waterfront houses and golf courses.
The school system there is very nice, and I commend it, but as it is officially part of the Houston school district now, I think that many students has a way of offsetting the numbers for the Houston school district unfairly.
Where in Kingwood did you live? When did you go there? Just curious.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I went for freshman and sophomore years - 90-92. We lived in Forest Cove, which technically was not part of Kingwood.
[ May 08, 2006, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
In response to previous posts on the subject: my higschool graduates only about 2/3s of the entering Freshman, the rest mostly leave for other schools, but is one of the best in the city of San Antonio (you won't find it on the Newsweek list, but the SA Express News listed it as one of San Antonio's élite schools.) Of course, it isn't Public, but should Public schools really be held to such a diferent standard than Private schools. Perhaps the state of education would be better in this country if more under-performing students were asked to leave formal education.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: In response to previous posts on the subject: my higschool graduates only about 2/3s of the entering Freshman, the rest mostly leave for other schools, but is one of the best in the city of San Antonio (you won't find it on the Newsweek list, but the SA Express News listed it as one of San Antonio's élite schools.) Of course, it isn't Public, but should Public schools really be held to such a diferent standard than Private schools. Perhaps the state of education would be better in this country if more under-performing students were asked to leave formal education.
Well, that is a very condesending, arrogant statement.
Move to Japan, you will fit right in with their tracking system for schooling. In THIS country public education is just that...public.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
The list of countries which share my "very condesending, arrogant" view of education is quite long: Austria, Finland, Greece, Germany, Italy, Poland etc. The system in the U.S. is anomalous, not the norm. Indeed, it may be you who are being "very condesending, [and] arrogant" in your assumption that the way in which things operate in your country is axiomaticly better than all other systems in operation.
Posted by Kristen (Member # 9200) on :
quote:Perhaps the state of education would be better in this country if more under-performing students were asked to leave formal education.
You do realize that argument assumes that the educational system and all its participants are without reproach and cannot possibly be the case of a student's underperformance, right?
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
It most certainly does not, it does, however, state that students often represent part of the problem.
Posted by Kristen (Member # 9200) on :
It still protects and values the system and the educators over the students unless your policy has it that if students should be asked to leave the system, so should under-performing teachers and administrators.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
While I understand the dangers in saying that underperforming students should leave formal education, it is just as dangerous to say that all students should be forced through a formal education.
I'm talking here about trade schools.
In the formal academic public school world, trade schools are often looked down upon. In the past, I understand, trade schools were sometimes seen as a dumping ground for students who didn't do well academically. However, it seems trade schools have been dismissed almost out of hand these days, the attitude being that students should be educated for college instead of a trade.
While the danger of college-interested students being pushed out of formal education programs into trade schools does exist, the bad wrap trade schools get is undeserved.
Our public education system has ignored the trades in the last decade or two, dropping trade programs within their schools such as woodshop, autoshop and metalshop. These programs are becomign scarce as money is funneled into computers and math/english standardized test areas.
To put it simply, though, four years of college after a standard public secondary experience does not make you a better or worse person than four years working in the trades after a trade secondary school.
I think teachers should have more leeway to suggest trade schools to parents earlier on, and the stigma the schools place on this option should go away.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
My cousin just spent half a year in the german version of college. She had the same thing to say about it as ever other exchange student I haave spoken to in the past 15 years; with very few exceptions, college overseas is no better than a community college over here.
DESPITE a formal tracking system that starts years before any of ours do.
It is not a mistake that people from all over the world get their degrees here in the US. Far more than Americans do overseas.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quote:While the danger of college-interested students being pushed out of formal education programs into trade schools does exist, the bad wrap trade schools get is undeserved.
I could not agree more. We need to start recognizing that as the number of people skilled in the trade goes down, the average salary of a skilled tradesperson is going to go up.
I know a lot of people in the trades, obviously as my husband is one of them. I also have friends who work in professions that traditionally are thought to be good wage-earning jobs. Engineers, pharmaceutical sales, computer/IT, CPA, etc. I don't know how much everybody makes per year but if you look at lifestyle, like how expensive a home people own and whether or not people own second vacation homes and boats or other luxury items - guess who's doing better? The tradespeople. I know for a fact that several of the contractors we know are millionaires. One had his business for sale and we looked into purchasing it and saw the books for the last few years - he was bringing in between $600,000-$750,000 NET, not gross, annually the last 3 years.
I know finish carpenters that bill themselves at more than $100 per hour, and they have so much work backed up they may never get to it all. I won't go into what my hubby bills out, but suffice to say that if I do graduate and get a teaching certificate and work as a public school teacher, my annual salary will be considerably less than what he makes as a plumber - part-time.
I don't know what type of aptitude my son will show, he's just in kindergarten, but if he ever came to me and said "Mom, I don't want to go to college, I would rater learn a trade" I would not think less of him at all and would try to find a good finish carpenter for him to apprentice with.
Posted by Kristen (Member # 9200) on :
Belle, you are correct about some tradespeople being well off. My mom is always in the process of rennovating and some of our carpenters and roofers will show up in really expensive sports cars. I know our electrician type person is single-handedly financing his 6 children through college. And, obviously, the auto mechanics who fix those expensive sports cars aren't exactly poor either.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
quote:I think teachers should have more leeway to suggest trade schools to parents earlier on, and the stigma the schools place on this option should go away.
Hear, hear! All through high school I very much wanted to take practical trades-based classes and sign up for the senior year apprentice-type program the high school ran with local businesses, but I was bright and college-bound, and the counselors made it clear that those classes were intended for the students who were one step away from dropping out.
So I went and spent $120,000 on a fancy Ivy League education, and all I really learned during those four years was a) what I wanted to do for a career, and b) that I'd need to go to a trade school to learn to do it.
And here I am, finally, in a trade school, learning a specific skill alongside people from all backgrounds, many of whom probably couldn't write 25 pages on the relative merits of humanism vs. antihumanism, but amazingly enough still have a whole heck of a lot to offer the world. Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
Three kids in my family- I am in grad school getting a phd, my sister is a lawyer and my brother construction. My sister and I are in debt, my brother makes double my sister's salary, four times mine. When I graduate, this will still be true. A lot of kids in high schools get frustrated because it does not pertain to them. They have decided that they are going into auto repair. Why do they care about calculus? We need cars fixed. It is a reputable career, so why should we look down on it? Why not let them do trade schools for half day, normal school the other? They are more engaged, getting the knowlede they need for their future plans. The kids then are better behaved during the "academic" portion and grades improve. I think that some kids though should not be in public schools. My husband was a teacher and was assaulted in the classroom. I firmly believe that the student should have lost the right to an education in that moment. You come to learn or don't come at all.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
*nods*
I know a guy who went to a trade school and apprenticed to become an electrician to put himself through college and med school. Once he finished med school and did his internship, though, he realized that he really liked the idea of being a doctor, but couldn't handle the reality.
So he went back to being an electrician, and makes very good money at it.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
My mom, with umpteen years of college and a bunch of (thoroughly impractical) degrees, now works at a state trade school and likes it best of all the colleges and universities she's attended over the years. What she likes about it is that people are going to school for the specific purpose of learning a trade so they can work.
Many of the programs at this school have waiting lists, and graduates have a very high employment success rate.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
Kwea, WHAT? Oxford, Cambridge, the École Normale Supérieure, Sciences-Po and Tokyo University are all equivilent to community colleges? That would explain why the Rhodes Scholarship program has no applicants from the U.S., who would never go to an educational backwater like the U.K. to go to school.
I find your comment increadibly offensive, and I am a U.S. citizen.
Posted by Kristen (Member # 9200) on :
I do think trade schools are encouraged to some extent. The public school in the town I grew up had classes such as shop and wood-working and auto mechanics to prepare students for trade schools, and it was hardly a blue collar town. My boyfriend is from middle-class Minnesota and says his high school also had a broad selection of trade classes.
However, I do think they are encouraged as an option after graduation rather than something to pursue in lieu of obtaining a high school diploma.
I guess then the question boils down to what extent should public education be mandatory and for how long.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
quote:The public school in the town I grew up had classes such as shop and wood-working and auto mechanics to prepare students for trade schools, and it was hardly a blue collar town. My boyfriend is from middle-class Minnesota and says his high school also had a broad selection of trade classes.
That's good to hear. In New Jersey, these programs are disappearing rapidly. Schools are cutting shop programs because of the expense of providing materials and insurance, along with increasing need for space coupled with towns so taxed they won't pass budgets for expansion.
At the middle school I worked at, the shop teacher had been teaching for 38 years. He said he would teach as long as he physically could, because when he left they wouldn't replace him and the shop would close.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
My dad always encouraged us to have a trade and an education. I think the ideal career he would want us to have would be to be both an electrician and an electrical engineer. The oldest two haven't done it at all, but there's a chance the middle child will.
Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
In Houston, I don't get the feeling like trade schools are encouraged (could be school based). The closest they had was programming, CAD.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
Still no answer from Kwea.
Posted by SoaPiNuReYe (Member # 9144) on :
Stonewall Jackson #563 baby. << My school Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Kwea, WHAT? Oxford, Cambridge, the École Normale Supérieure, Sciences-Po and Tokyo University are all equivilent to community colleges? That would explain why the Rhodes Scholarship program has no applicants from the U.S., who would never go to an educational backwater like the U.K. to go to school. I find your comment increadibly offensive, and I am a U.S. citizen.
Breathe, Pelegius. He said with very few exeptions, not all.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
It was still incredibly insulting and false, Britian can claim, in adition to Oxbridge, the following world-class universities: Imperial College, London University, Manchester University, Kings College, University of Nottingham, University of Birmingham University of Glasgow, University of Leeds, University of Liverpool, University of Sussex, Cardiff University, East Anglia University, University of Leicester, University of Southampton, London School of Economics, Queen Mary University, Queen's University, University of Dundee, University of Durham, University of Lancaster, University of Newcastlse, St Andrew's University, University of Warwick and University of York.
France has the Sobborne, the Grande Écoles and Lyon among many others. I could go on for some time (Germany, the Netherlands, Switzerland and the Scandinavian countries are quite well endowed.)
The fact of the matter is that many Americans go abroad for Graduate school, hence the proliferation of Rhodes and Fulbright scholers among the brightests students, and the claim that "with very few exceptions, college overseas is no better than a community college over here" is completely groundless.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
Just to throw my hat into this ring, I studied abroad my junior year at the University of Galway in Ireland, which is one of the better schools for liberal arts in the country - behind Trinity of course.
Quite frankly, it was a joke compared to Rutgers in NJ, and the classes were a breeze. Most were midterm final only, and for semester courses that meant one test for the entire course. If they weren't midterm final, there were two papers a year - again, one if it was only a semester course.
Maybe the graduate programs were more strenuous or in depth, but the undergraduate program was pretty light.
A friend had a similar experience at the University of Glasgow during his semester abroad from Duke.
Posted by LisB1121 (Member # 1703) on :
Hmm, I'm certainly not saying you're wrong FlyingCow, but I'm not sure how requiring just one exam at the end means the class is easy. That depends entirely on the expectations the professor places on that final exam. Sure, if the expectation is only regurgitation of cursory knowledge, that's easy. But if knowledge of the entire set of material with thorough analysis is expected, that can be harder then several tests along the way. I'm thinking of law school exams I just took. ;-)
As for only one paper, again that depends on what is required for that paper. I would think well researched paper of say 20-25 pages would be plenty for an undergrad course. Maybe even 15 depending on the subject and how closely the professor monitored research methodology. I'm guessing they were short papers at Trinity?
At any rate, I never studied overseas, so I have no basis to really compare American vs. foreign universities. I suppose I'm just not getting a clear picture of what the different levels of expectations were at Rutgers vs. Trinity, and I'm interested to hear why Rutgers was harder. Would you be willing to comment on that?
Posted by Kristen (Member # 9200) on :
On the other hand, I know of a lot of community colleges of a reasonably high quality--they just cater to part-time adult students.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
My father did work on his PhD at Trinity and certainly believed it compared favorably with the University of Washington and the University of Texas.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
I resurrect this thread to contribute to a larger point I am trying to make: we live in a culture of mediocrity. The lowest common denominator, which is very low indeed decides everything.
quote: to honor schools that have done the best job in persuading average students to take college-level courses and tests.
Heaven forbid that any school have good programs for the gifted. What is important is that the lowest common denominator be raised as high as possible, even if that means neglecting everything above that. AP tests are not for the average student, and were never intended to be. My school, rightly to my mind, discourages students who are unlikely to make a four or a five on an AP test from taking the class. Why? Because it is grossly unfair that, in a gifted class, the teacher should have to spend half an hour explaining the basics Marxism to people who, in the Tenth grade, were totally unfamiliar with the term.
Meritocracy through equality of opportunity is the goal towards which we should strive, not equality of intellect based on a false system.
We have become so anti-élitist that we fear even an élite based on talent, indeed, I would say we fear this more than any other élite. Note that, in the United States today, the word "intellectual" is almost universally used as a sneer, while the "average joe" is raised to the level of demigod, or, at least, President.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
quote:1,200 schools and not a single from Hawaii, my state. Is anyone surprised? I'm not.
We should start a club. Any other no-show states wanna get in on this? (Oh god...tell me there were other no-show states.)
Now we just need an awesome acronym...
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
I wouldn't worry, Texas has plenty on there, and I don't think anyone is going to start celebrating our great educational system anytime soon.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
"Hope you're smart or your parents have connections, otherwise you're screwed." With the addition of lucky to that list, I would say c'est la vie. Really, what is so wrong with a system that acknowledges that some students are, in fact, more intelligent, or better at school? If we say that this is not so, then we are lying to our students and to ourselves.
A society which considers total equality, rather than meritocracy, to be the goal, even at the expense of real progress, is doomed to fail.
We should, must, allow the talented to rise while providing a safety net for those who lack talent or luck. We should not, cannot, attempt to make them equal, anymore than we can make three equal to nine. There are wrongs which we cannot right, and should not even attempt to do so. Perhaps the day shall come when science can change the intelligence of an individual, but this will not be the course of the near future. Even if this were possible, I am far from sure that it would be desirable: Stephan Hawking, rightly, points out that creating super-smart humans creates a special difference which would ultimately lead to the demise of humanity through its metamorphoses into post-humanity. Do we really want this?
Even if we answer that this course of events is good and right, what system of belief argues for the pretense that something which has not happened has?
In the meantime, we must accept, and teach our children to accept, that humanity, while glorious, is limited, and individual humans, while potentially more glorious, are more limited.
Or education system fails students, for, when they learn that they have been taught lies, will rightly ask what sort of a society teaches lies to the young and this shall lead them to question whether any society based on lies can or should survive. We must change our educational system, and our society without, until truth is the basis. How will our governing élites answer the statement, so often heard from the mouths of the most intelligent youth: Pas de replâtrage, la structure est pourrie? We not replaster, but replant, else our society be uprooted and flung into the abyss. Revolutions do not save societies, but they occur only when a society needs saving.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
I fear we underestimate the exent to which a society is formed in its schools. To what degree are world views formed at the university, and, especialy, secondary school levels? The answer is that the world views of individuals within a society, and thus the nature of the societ, are almost universaly formed at these levels.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
Interesting to see people from my neck of the woods (Kingwood to be precise) on here. Kingwood always seemed pretty good academically to me, but then again I was in all AP classes so I might have a distorted view. Of course Kingwood's academic excellence may slide next year when they start this new "family" system nonsense.
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)