I want to know. Why did God create slugs? And if God didn't do it, what possible useful purpose could slugs have in the natural order of things? Snails are at least pretty, but there is nothing lovely about a slug. And definitely nothing lovely about what they do to my garden!!
*grumble*
Posted by Theaca (Member # 8325) on :
I think they're pretty neat. And they can't hide like snails. What do they do to gardens?
I think I'm just so fond of the Aplysia species that live in the ocean that I like them all. They are so pretty when they swim, but I haven't found a good picture yet. And they are very important in many areas of research. Maybe that is why slugs exist. http://www.brembs.net/learning/aplysia/aplysia.html Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Slugs are much lovelier and more purposeful than mosquitoes. I still want to ask God why He created mosquitoes... Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Fleas. Fleas have no purpose, I tell you.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Slugs have their place in the ecosystems they're a part of. They're high in protein, and provide meals for lizards, turtles, toads, frogs, some snakes, a number of birds, and lightning bug larvae.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Mosquitos, in egg, larvae, and adult form, are also an important food source for all sorts of creatures.
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
quote: Why did God create slugs?
To bleed out the bad blood.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
But yeah, fleas just suck.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
That bites, I say. Unreservedly.
[Edited because I repeat myself repeat myself.]
Posted by theresa51282 (Member # 8037) on :
You have it all wrong. Its ticks that need to go I tell you, ticks!
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Theca, they destroy gardens and leave slime trails all over everything. Last year they ate more of my strawberries than I did. They're just starting to come out of hibernation now. In the face of today's absolutely beautiful weather, I can look forward to a full summer of slugs everywhere. They particularly seem to like my front porch, where they have been known to crawl up the door leaving slime as a nice parting gift for me to enjoy scrubbing off. My door can't possibly taste good. They like the garage door too, which is just weird. Slimey trails of sluggy visitation make a strange maze on our garage door by the end of the summer.
The worst thing is, they don't do much of anything to blackberry bushes, which I could use some help in cutting back. If they're going to destroy my plants, couldn't they do the weeds first?
Every summer as they devestate my perennials I have wondered over and over, why do slugs exist?
Perhaps it's for the beauty of watching them swim. I love to watch jellyfish swim.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Are you sure, CT? I wouldn't want you to be jumping to conclusions.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Scratch that. I might be wrong.
Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
Other insects and larvae can provide food sources for other creatures. The only thing mosquitoes and fleas do that other insects don't is to spread diseases. (and thus keep me employed, but I'd still rather live in a world without either.)
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
What is the purpose of rhinoviruses? I mean, all they do is give us colds. How useful is that?
And scabies? What are they good for? An instrument of evil, I tell you!
And what is the purpose of the guy at the cinema who tears your ticket in half? Why can't they sell them already torn in half?
Posted by Kristen (Member # 9200) on :
I have a total revulsion to all things alive and slimy: worms, , maggots, jellyfish, slugs, caterpillars, and snails not in a shell.
However, I have absolutely no problems with bugs, spiders, mice, snakes, etc.
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
They also make for great movie scenes like the one in Stand by Me. Yes, those were real slugs on Will Wheaton!
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
quote: And what is the purpose of the guy at the cinema who tears your ticket in half? Why can't they sell them already torn in half?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
jeniwren, it does suck when animals take more than their fair share, doesn't it? Last year racoons made off with every ear of my parents' half acre or so of corn. Every ear! And turtles will gorge themselves on strawberries if given half a chance. In my experience they rarely eat the whole thing--they'll just take a bite and then move on to the next berry.
Have you looked into ways of controlling your slugs? Maybe buying lightening bug larvae? That way you'd not only get to eat more of your produce, but would be able to enjoy that many more lightning bugs as well.
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
Slugs are for getting free drinks out of vending machines.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by lem: They also make for great movie scenes like the one in Stand by Me. Yes, those were real slugs on Will Wheaton!
No they weren't. They were leeches.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
sL, how do you get the slime off your hands to pop the top off your free soda? Blech...
Noemon, we do several things, but mainly, we cut the ones we find in half and throw them into the grass to decompose. I've tried chemical warfare but really don't like that method as most effective slug bait is harmful to animals and small children. As I have both, and we've acquired several wild cats around our property, I don't want to do that this summer. I've heard that dishes of beer work really well as a slug trap, but haven't tried it yet. I don't know if lightning bugs can survive here...I've never seen them anyway....
That's very rude of the turtles, btw. Slugs do the same thing, while also leaving slime all over the partially eaten strawberry. So you can't even cut out the yucky parts and eat the rest. And the racoons...that's terrible. Every ear?
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
The dishes of beer work, but they are sooooo disgusting to dispose of, and as with any bait, I'm always wondering if they are calling slugs from other locales that wouldn't normally be in my garden.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Yep, every ear. My parents would look at them, determine which ones were going to be ripe the next day, and then find them stolen the next morning.
We were never really bothered with slugs when I was still living with them, but that may be related to the incredible profusion of lightning bugs we enjoyed. As a result, I was never really put off by them, and have always found their trails pretty. I like the way they glint in the sun.
I've heard that the beer thing works really well, but I've never had the heart to try it.
You can't eat the turtles' leftovers either--they are carriers of salmonella, so eating after them is a fairly bad idea.
If lightning bugs aren't native to your area I'd be careful about introducing them. Might not be a bad idea to look into other insects whose larval forms eat slugs though--I know that others exist. If some of them are native to your region you can seed your land with them without worrying too much about starting something nasty.
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
quote: No they weren't. They were leeches.
Your right!!! I had a total brain fart. I saw slug, I know what a slug is, but my brain processed "leech."
EDIT: I made the same mistake with this coment: "To bleed out the bad blood."
grrargh... Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
In reading more about lightning bug larvae, it would seem that they are capable of tracking slugs down by following their slime trails, and that they have been observed hunting (relatively) large prey cooperatively.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
Jeni- beer traps work, and so do compost traps. (Put a few inches of water in the bottom of the plastic container you store kitchen waste in- you know it needs cleaning anyway- and the rotting food will attract the slugs, and they drown. Then they get to serve a purpose in my compost bin) They also will not cross copper- they sell copper strips at Loews.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
Gotta agree on the beer thing. I put little dishes of beer out one summer and caught dozens of slugs over a few weeks. I caught fewer the next year, and eventually stopped in that garden because the slugs were no longer a problem.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Romany, that's fascinating about their aversion to copper. That's actually very helpful in terms of a story idea I've been kicking around for the past little while.
Posted by Coccinelle (Member # 5832) on :
The best (and only) redeeming quality in slugs is that they make a popping sound when you step on them Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
Cool! I helped gardeners AND a writer today.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
The purpose of slugs is, obviously, so that they can put the bad guys in jail on Law and Order and CSI.
Posted by Audeo (Member # 5130) on :
What bothers me about slugs is that they don't eat all the dandelion leaves or even the leaves of plants that have already bloomed, they go straight for things like my poor irises and lilies and eat them to the ground, while dandelions flourish. I used to use a pet safe slug bait, but my dad gave me a bag of industrial stuff that he advised me not to handle with bare hands. I unabashedly use whatever means necessary to kill them (and the snails). I've never heard of using lightening bugs before though, I'll have to look into it. Lightening bugs aren't indigenous to the pacific northwest, though, so perhaps it wouldn't be right to import them.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Copper is not the only thing that repels slugs. They can't withstand salting. If you salt a slug, it dies in a Wicked Witch of the West kind of way -- I'm melting! Melting!
This is why, if you are at a garden party, you should never drink beer. Your glass will attract all the garden slugs. Instead, ask for a Margarita. The salt around the rim will keep the slugs out of your drink.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
Tante, very true, but if you end up salting your soil, that's bad.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Slugs are good for entertaining young children. Give a kid a salt shaker and a garden full of slugs and he's entertained for hours.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
I can't imagine that being pleasant for the slugs. Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
CT, you are truly a woman of exceptional empathy, if you find yourself caring about the pleasure of slugs.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Actually, I've tried the salt thing and really felt very bad afterward for doing so. Chopping them in half is gruesome but quick. The salt really seems to hurt them as they writhe about.
I don't like slugs, but I don't wish them any ill will except in defense of house and garden. I wish I could convince them to eat the blackberry briars.
Thanks for the info, romany. Is that what you do?
Posted by Mr.Funny (Member # 4467) on :
Slugs were created so the English system has an equivalent to the metric kilogram.
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
Mr. Funny, you rock.
Posted by unicornwhisperer (Member # 294) on :
There is a slug festival I've been to when I was little, where people brought slugs and raced them. It was a little fun, except for the fact that the slugs were slow and the people had to get their hands slimy.
Another purpose of slugs was for my brothers, when they were children, to urinate on them. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by jeniwren: Actually, I've tried the salt thing and really felt very bad afterward for doing so. Chopping them in half is gruesome but quick. The salt really seems to hurt them as they writhe about.
You know, they really can't feel much in the way of pain -- simply don't have the nervous system for it.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
You know, I've heard that about a variety of animals, from worms to fish to frogs, and I've always been a bit skeptical of the claim. Wouldn't the ability to feel pain be a pretty important thing for any motile creature to have? If they are incapable of feeling pain, how do they avoid things that would cause damage to their bodies? When you do things to them that would cause them pain, they certainly react to them, and will generally try to get away from the thing that's causing them damage. If they can't sense pain how do they know to do that?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Instinctive reactions do not require pain stimuli.
Moths fly toward light, but not because they are frightened by or pained by the dark.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
I don't know if they can't sense pain, as much as they don't have any conception of suffering. It's a simple avoidance response system. Slugs don't have anything that you could really call a brain, a nerve bundle, but nothing that thinks.
Wow, I just wasted way too much brain power talking about slugs' feelings. I'm gonna go salt a couple to get my money's worth.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Instinctive reactions do not require pain stimuli.
I know, I've heard this from biology teachers before. It's just never completely made sense to me. You aren't arguing that they don't possess a sense of touch, right? Just that they don't feel pain?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Touch? Yes.
Conscious awareness of touch? No.
I'm not convinced simple organisms like slugs have ANY kind of conscious awareness. They're more like little computer programs -- Light? Move toward. Touch? Move away.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I thought it was funny the way they talked about it. And the line at the end about motivation vs. hard-wiring seems to fit. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Would you also say that they experience pain, but not the conscious awareness of pain, rivka, or do you maintain that they don't have pain receptors (ie do you agree with MightyCow)?
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
I believe they do experience pain. They have nervous systems, after all. What good are slugs? Great good. They're part of nature's recycling system, just like earthworms. They break stuff down into soil. They are also, as pointed out, important as prey to toads and other critters.
Mosquitoes are actually very important. The males of many species are crucial to the pollination of wildflowers. The insects in all their forms are an irreplaceable part of the food chain. Also, they keep us in the here-and-now, instead of in our heads all the time. They act as guardians of the woods and wetlands, making sure that the people who enter these habitats REALLY want to be there.
Fleas are more troublesome, but as the Insect Advocate, I have to find something to love about them. Hmm... They're indestructible, which is inspiring to prisoners of conscience.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I didn't know that mosquitos were significant pollinators! Very cool.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jenny Gardener: What good are slugs? Great good...Mosquitoes are actually very important...The insects in all their forms are an irreplaceable part of the food chain...Fleas are...indestructible, which is inspiring to prisoners of conscience.
OK, I'll grant you those, but what about the guy in the cinema who rips your ticket in half?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Noemon, I am not aware of any evidence that slugs have pain receptors.
Actually, let me correct the phrasing on that. While giant sea slugs (which are considerably more complex than garden slugs) show some evidence of simple pain receptors, I don't believe the same is true for their simpler gardening cousins.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
I don't know about guys in the cinema...
Rivka, why are you so convinced that slugs don't feel? They're tough, true, but having one's fluids chemically dissolved by salt CAN'T feel good, even to a slug.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Tante, ticket tearers are actually a larval form of theater employee. After hatching from their soft, gelatinous eggs (better known to the layman as Jujubees) they gorge themselves on the popcorn produced in mass quantities by specialized worker employees.
Their bodyweight doubles every four hours or so, and soon they achieve a height of anywhere from 5 to 6 feet, their soft skin hardening into something closely resembling slacks and a cheap blazer. When this hardening is complete, they move instinctually to podiums situated around the theater and proceed to tear tickets. While the activity seems purposeful, it is believed that it is an entirely instinctive, reflexive behavior (in fact, it is believed that ticket tearers do not even possess what you or I would consider consciousness, and it is a well known fact that they are incapable of feeling pain)--nothing more than a mechanical response to the stimulus of theater attendees filing past with outstretched tickets.
Life as a ticket taker is a dangerous thing. Many species of theater employee are cannibalistic, and it isn't uncommon for ticket tearers to account for upwards of 60% of adult theater employees' caloric intake. The strongest, quickest ticket takers survive, however, retreating to break rooms, projection booths, and storage closets to pupate.
The vast majority of former ticket takers emerge from their pupal stage as specialized snack counter employees, skilled from the moment of their emergence at popping popcorn, dispensing drinks, and tending pupal ticket takers. A smaller number become ticket vendor employees, a strange sessile imago form unlike anything else in the employee kingdom. An even smaller number emerge as projectionists. Though theaters seem to maintain a balance of these three worker types, the mechanism by which this is achieved is poorly understood. Many maintain that phermonal signals determine worker type, but others [Hodkin, Gupta et al] have found evidence that temperature in pupating chambers plays an important roll.
Better understood is the mechanism by which a tiny minority of ticket takers become managers. Snack counter employees tending the pupa will occasionally select one to feed popcorn coated in what is termed "royal butter". Pupa who consume this substance invariably emerge as managers. A theater can support a maximum of two of this specialized worker type, with the senior functioning as a full fledged manager and the junior functioning as its assistant (it is important to note that theater employees of this type appear to possess at least rudimentary intelligence, with assistant managers showing limited social learning abilities).
As long as the existing senior manager is strong, all is well; the theater remains in equilibrium, functioning smoothly. If the manager becomes weak, however, supersedure occurs. Manager pheremones throughout the hive decrease, and the entire hive functions less efficiently. At this point the assistant manager begins producing manager pheremones of his own, and the two managers battle for control of the theater. This almost always results in death for the weakened senior manager.
[ April 25, 2006, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: Noemon ]
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Next time you're in the theatre and they rip your ticket in half scream "I JUST PAID TEN BUCKS FOR THAT AND YOU RIPPED IT IN HALF!" then ask to see his manager...
I tell ya, they never get tired of that...
Pix
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Rivka, how can you tell if an animal has pain receptors? Do the nerve endings look visibly different under a microscope?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
The Pixiest
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Better understood is the mechanism by which a tiny minority of ticket takers become managers. Snack counter employees tending the pupa will occasionally select one to feed popcorn coated in what is termed "royal butter". Pupa who consume this substance invariably emerge as managers. A theater can support a maximum of two of this specialized worker type ...
... and here is where I lost it.
The other library patrons thank you, Noemon, for the snorting sounds of unrepressed laughter.
quote:Rivka, how can you tell if an animal has pain receptors? Do the nerve endings look visibly different under a microscope?
I don't know how much of this is semantics (i.e., no brain = no pain, by definition?), but I'd think the best way to characterize receptors would be by neurotransmitters produced and used at the synapse. This seems to be how it is most commonly done in the human organism, at least.
It has been a long time since my last invertebrate zoology course, but I think the neurotransmitters are the same basic chemicals as for human synapses. This would take some tracking down to be sure, though.
Again, it isn't necessaarily a matter of categorizing the type of receptor, I'd think. A good deal of the opposition to attribution of pain seems to be more centered on the processing of stimuli (and the limits thereof) rather than the reception of the stimuli. Kind of like how a kneejerk reflex is processed only at the spinal cord level, so there is no consciousness involved in the action. (Of course, there is awareness after the fact, but if a person were brain-damaged to the extent of no cortical functioning, basic reflexes could be preserved without conscious interpretation of them afterward.)
However, I have an icky feeling in my tummy at the thought of inducing anything that even looks like pain in any responsive creature, at least without good cause to do so. Taking pleasure in it would make me even more squeamy.
(For what it's worth, I cried at HAL's death. Dave calls it a monster story, while I insist it is a tragedy. But my marriage is strong enough to withstand such grave vagaries in opinion. *smile)
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Noemon, that is the funniest thing! My boss wants to know why I am sitting at my desk giggling to myself.
I do declare that NOEMON HAS WON THE THREAD!!
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Noemon!!!!
Tante, for the shere artistry of his post, I think he may have won Post Of The Day. Probably Of The Week as well.
Addited: Regarding pain receptors and the salt treatment for slugs, it's their reaction that leads me to believe it is wrong to salt slugs. It *looks* like torture, and therefore makes me feel like I am the torturer. I don't want to grow callous to the pain of other creatures even if that creature isn't in actual pain but just looks like it. Psychologically, it's too damaging to me, regardless of what it does to my slime trailing victim. (written somewhat tongue in cheek... )
Word of advice for anyone thinking of painting their garage doors a dark color: rethink this. The dark color contrasts against the slime trails and makes it obvious you aren't a very good housekeeper.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Encouraging children to take pleasure in the apparent suffering of ANY creature, to me, borders on child abuse.
When I was around six years old, at some sort of party I was at, an adult gave us kids salt shakers and encouraged us to use them on the slugs in his garden.
Most of the kids took great joy in inflicting (what at least appeared to be to us kids) massive amounts of suffering on these creatures. I tried it on one, and watching the pain I caused seared me to my very soul. I caused that pain. And for what? My amusement. The thought sickened me. The fact that it did not even phase any of the other children strikes me as being very sad.
Since that day I have never intentionally inflicted suffering on any creature, great or small. I've killed plenty of insects and the like, but doing so has never brought me pleasure.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Thanks guys--it was fun visualizing all of that as I was making it up.
CT, the distinction you're making between the processing rather that the reception of stimuli is an important one, I think. That way of phrasing it makes more sense to me than other explanations of the same thing that I've heard.
I'm not sure what I think of the idea of slugs possessing no consciousness whatsoever. I understand that they don't have a brain. Do they have ganglia? I assume that they must, right? I've been looking around for some anatomical drawings of slugs, but all I'm finding are external anatomy sketches and information on sea slugs (which, while fascinating, isn't what I'm after right now).
In any case, I agree with CT that the prospect of doing something that appears to cause unnecessary pain squicks me out, and that the idea of taking pleasure in doing something that appears to cause unnecessary pain squicks me out further.
When I was growing up there was a kid who lived near me who enjoyed doing this sort of thing. I remember trying to stop him from dousing a turtle with gas and setting it on fire, once (I convinced him that it would be more fun to put a spot of paint on its shell and see if we ever saw it again). I don't see a whole lot of difference between someone doing that and salting a slug, really. They're both motivated by the same mix of curiosity and sadism.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
quote:Originally posted by jeniwren: Thanks for the info, romany. Is that what you do?
We do the beer traps and compsot traps. I feel best about the beer traps, because they die happy. Maybe I'm just rationalizing, though.
Another I remembered-interplant lavender with plants that attract slugs. Lavender repels them.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Noemon, I'm gonna get you. I couldn't stop laughing. And laughing hurts!
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Sorry about that!
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
romany, do you have lavender in your gardens? We planted a lavendar variation my ex-step-mother-in-law gave me at our old house and it was incredibly invasive. We were not able to get it under control by the time we moved, though we pulled every bit out we could find once we realized how invasive it was. It just kept coming up. Do you know if all lavender is invasive, or was it just the one we happened to plant? I would like to try that, I'm just afraid we'll end up with lavender everywhere. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
My mom has lavender in her garden and it doesn't invade anything. Rosemary, on the other hand...
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Xavier: It's certainly noble and good to avoid inflicting unnecessary pain. I would never encourage or permit someone to torture a dog or kick a cat. I think it's possible to have an unreasonable amount of empathy for what are essentially unfeeling creatures.
I would argue that encouraging children to salt slugs or swat flies is a far, far cry from teaching them to enjoy the suffering of others. To say that someone is abusing a child by having them salt a slug is the type of overstatement that, in my mind, trivializes real child abuse.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:I would argue that encouraging children to salt slugs or swat flies is a far, far cry from teaching them to enjoy the suffering of others. To say that someone is abusing a child by having them salt a slug is the type of overstatement that, in my mind, trivializes real child abuse.
Call them unfeeling if you want, but even if they are, kids don't know this. They don't know any different from torturing a slug, frog, turtle, mouse, squirrel, cow... The only difference a child knows is the "cuteness" of the potential tortured animal. Slugs are on the extreme low end of the cuteness scale, which is why its okay for them.
Its teaching a child to take pleasure in causing suffering, no matter how you slice it. I'd equate that with teaching your child to hate black people in the amount of harm it causes your child, both of which I would classify as "bordering on child abuse".
Edit: Some of the neighborhood kids would take firecrackers, stick them in frogs and snakes, and then light them. Is that any different? If so, why? Does the degree with which a creature's nervous system is developed make the difference? If so, do you see how the children do not know that slugs process pain any different from frogs, and so doing both causes them the same amount of psychological harm? At what point is torturing a creature okay? Would it be okay to do to a fish? A frog? A mouse?
[ April 25, 2006, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: Xavier ]
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:I would argue that encouraging children to salt slugs or swat flies
It's worth noting that these two things aren't really equivalent. Swatting flies kills them instantly, whereas salting a slug results in a slow and horrible death that, in a creature possessing consciousness, would be agonizingly painful. It might be more accurate to equate the salting of slugs with pulling the wings off of flies, in terms of cruelty.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I agree with jeniwren and Xavier; the fact that the slugs certainly appear to be writhing in pain (even though I have been told that this is simply a series of chemical reactions, and works just as well if you kill the slug first) is good enough reason not to encourage kids to salt 'em. Nor do I have any interest in doing so myself.
And Noemon, that is one of the funniest things I have ever read. Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote: Mosquitoes are actually very important. The males of many species are crucial to the pollination of wildflowers.
I just want to point out that both male AND female mosquitoes also feed on the nectar of plants, thus helping with pollinization. (according to my bug book) Females do the blood thing as well, but not to exclusion, they also help in that pollination thing.
So, I'll admit they do have a good purpose -- something besides the bad things they are most known for like spreading disease and causing uncomfortable red bumps.
FG
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
quote:Originally posted by Xavier: Its teaching a child to take pleasure in causing suffering, no matter how you slice it. I'd equate that with teaching your child to hate black people in the amount of harm it causes your child, both of which I would classify as "bordering on child abuse".
This is exactly the kind of thinking that I find abhorrent. To directly equate killing a garden pest with racism is distasteful to me. Are farmers genocidal killers because they commonly kill millions of insects in their fields?
This type of thinking trivializes human suffering and doing harm to another person or whole groups of people by putting it in the same category as killing a slug. It's sensational, it's false, and it's illogical.
The difference between the two is such a vast gulf that if you can with any intellectual honesty use the two as a comparison, I cannot believe that you have any concept of the real cruelty, hate, and suffering that humans endure at the hand of their fellow humans. Ask someone who's been beaten or been in fear of their lives if their tormentors were as bad those evil four year old slug killers.
People don't seem to have a problem with drowning slugs, or poisoning them. Do you imagine that these are fun ways for a slug to die? Salting a slug kills it in a matter of seconds, because it oozes slime and shrivels, it is easy to imagine it writing in pain, when in fact it is simply losing its moisture.
This type of thinking is what makes people blame video games and movies for violence instead of facing the real issues that cause someone to hate. Pretending that allowing children to kill a slug is at all like abusing them or teaching racism makes a joke of real abuse and real hate.
You're intentionally ignoring real issues by focusing so much of your attention on trivial issues. It is nothing more than an excuse to be outraged over something meaningless instead of considering the real, difficult issues that matter. I can't stop you from believing what you like, but I'll have not part in it.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
jeni, we do have leavender, and it has not proven invasive. I couldn't tell you what kind off the top of my head, but it's been there for years, and it's stayed in it's place.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by Xavier: Encouraging children to take pleasure in the apparent suffering of ANY creature, to me, borders on child abuse.
When I was around six years old, at some sort of party I was at, an adult gave us kids salt shakers and encouraged us to use them on the slugs in his garden.
I don't know whether or not that is abuse, but it is definitely assault.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
>_<
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:This is exactly the kind of thinking that I find abhorrent. To directly equate killing a garden pest with racism is distasteful to me. Are farmers genocidal killers because they commonly kill millions of insects in their fields?
My explanations above have clearly done no good in describing why I feel how I do, if this is what you claim I was doing. The fact that you ignored the other 90% of my post should probably set off warning flags for me not to bother replying, but I feel the need to anyway.
I'll try one last time to sum it up: Its encouraging children to take pleasure in causing and then watching suffering.
A farmer on the field killing pests is not doing anything even similar to that, and if you can't see that, we have nothing more to talk about. We have a failure to communicate.
If the farmer was attempting to think of the most horrible way to kill those pests, and then takes great pleasure in watching those pests die in a painful way, then that would be similar. I would think that farmer has some pretty serious emotional issues if that was the case.
Killing should never be fun. When its necessary, you do it, but it should never bring you pleasure. The same is true for causing suffering, no matter how ugly or annoying that creature is.
I would have no objection if an adult, in a utilitarian way, asked children to help him clear his garden of slugs, by whatever method the adult chose. The children should see it as a chore, not as a rocking good time. The adult shouldn't present it as a fun thing to do. Say you ask children to help you clear your garden of slugs, and give them salt shakers. The children should then salt a slug, and immediately move on to the next one.
They should not wait and watch the slug appear to die in a slow, horrible and apparently painful manner, and then laugh and high five eachother before racing on to the next one.
Posted by Nell Gwyn (Member # 8291) on :
Xavier, I completely agree with you.
I have salted slugs only once, because before I started it seemed like a less-disgusting way to kill them than squishing them, since I wouldn't have to actually touch them. But then I was absolutely appalled by the process, and I felt horribly guilty over my willingly putting another creature through what looked like a tortuous death. I think I was about ten at the time.
If an adult had encouraged me to salt a slug rather than getting rid of it by more humane means, I would have either lost respect for said adult, or grown up extremely warped and probably less compassionate for all living creatures, including humans.
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Sorry about that!