If so, what kind? Are you happy with it? Have you had any problems with the hybrid system? What kind of mileage do you get?
I'm looking at buying a new car in the next couple of years. Is there anything new in the pipeline worth holding off for another year or so?
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
Hold off till next year at least. Toyota, Honda, and Nissan are all coming out with MUCH more reasonably priced ones for the 2007 models.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Yes. I have a Honda Civic Hybrid. I have never had a problem with the hybrid system (the transmission died at 8000 miles though, but the replacement has been working fine up to now [~20k miles]).
I have a non-ideal commute (for people who have visited the Boston Mormon temple, I have to commute up the large hill it is on every day to work), and in the winter I average ~35MPG. If I do mostly highway driving, in winter, get ~41. I get about a 15% increase when the weather warms up. From talking to Toyota hybrid owners (Toyota uses a different hybrid philosophy) they get similar mileage on the same commute.
My best tank was driving from Bryn Mawr/Haverford to Boston on a single tank, and still doing my non-ideal commute for a week (~47MPG).
The new Civic Hybrid is supposed to be larger, much more consistent with mileage results, and a little more efficient than my year.
I hadn't heard about new pricing; Toyota is comming out with a hybrid Camry soon, I think.
Karl, heck out the real lif mileage database at greenhybrid.com. It's a bit skewed to the positive, because there are "hypermiler" enthusiasts there that do lots of optimizations to get the best gas mileage, that you or I wouldn't do, but it's real world data, not EPA estimates.
Plus, don't forget that a limited tax CREDIT is now available from the feds (and some states have perks for hybrid drivers), but the credit is only for the first X sold in a given year (the algorithm for it is a little bit weirder than that). For instance the Prius gets you >$3000 back, and the Civic gets you a little under $2500 I think. Note that the Prius is more expensive than the Civic, which is essentially a higher end Civic model plus a hybrid system on it.
-Bok
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
Also for hybrid owners, I've heard that with these cars you have to replace the battery every few years to the tune of several grand. Is this true?
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I looked into hybrids, but was disappointed to find that the increase in mileage was not as substantial as I thought it would be. I mean, when I was in college, Honda Civic CRXs were already making around 40 MPG *without* being hybrids. This year, I looked at the online info for hybrid SUVs, and they seem to get like 26 mpg--again, not that far above regular SUVs, but for a lot more money. *shrug*
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Not true. Every hybrid out there has at least an 80/000 mile/8 year warranty on the battery. 3-5 years ago, these battery packs were expensive (but moot, since everyone was under warranty). People have gone >100k miles without battery pack issues. There have been isolated cases of batteries losing their charge, but all were replaced under warranty.
The thought is that due to the acceptance of the hybrid (and accompanying economies of scale), the battery packs will be much more reasonable when people actually have to replace them.
-Bok
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Ic, most of them get a boost on the highway. Ic, I bet in Florida you'd get close to 50MPG in any hybrid car (not SUV). Of course you have your nifty electric car.
-Bok
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I thought that it was on the highway that their milage was the worst, since they generate electricity by breaking. Is this not the case?
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
That's what I thought, too.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
Me too.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
Unfortunately around here, driving on the highway and frequent breaking are not mutually exclusive situations. Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Well, the electric car isn't good for long trips, or highway trips, so that's why we were interested in replacing our other car with a hybrid. And we still may, someday--right now it's not like we can afford a new car anyway. But that was just the impression I got when I did some research on it.
(And I used to get a nifty tax credit also, until Dubya did away with it. )
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
Mileage depends on the vehicle. The compacts like the Inight and the Prius get GREAT mileage. The midsize like the Civic, not all that wondeful. The Toyota Corrolla (not a hybrid) gets 40 mpg highway.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
Heck, the Hyundai Accent 3-door gets 40 mpg on the highway.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Long post ahead!!!
Stephan, the Civic gets just as good mileage as the Prius, in long-term real life driver reports. The Civic tends to sip gas as good, or better than the Prius on the highway. In the CITY, the Prius (particularly the redesigned one) does do better.
To highlight the differences/similarities (since Toyota and Honda use two different systems to get their mileage).
-The Prius is the larger car -The Civic is the more convential looking car -Both autostop if the engine is warmed up, and also if the weather isn't to hot our cold (if it is, the car remains on, to keep the AC/heater going). Autostop is when the car turns off (except for the radio/lights/display) any time the car has driven faster than 8-10MPH, and then come to a stop (well, really 2-3MPH, I coast in autostop all the time, which is cool). It has been determined that if you are autostopped longer than 6-7 seconds, then you overcome the inherent inefficiency of stopping then restarting the car. Both cars use the electric motor as a starter (I know the Civic has a convential backup starter, I don't remember about the Prius) -Both use the electric motor to assist in acceleration -Both use small 4-cylinder engines to increase efficiency -Both use regenerative braking to repower the batteries, as well as using the conventional engine, if the battery pack is low and there is power to spare -Both use a CVT (continuously variable transmission), except the older Cvics (pre-2006 models), which have a manual transmission option. A CVT means that there are nearly infinite gear ratios. This allows more control by the car computer for fuel efficiency, as well as providing a different driving experience... The cars never "down-shift", rather than being "pushed" you just feel like you are being "pulled" when driving. This, IMO, leads to a very smooth ride. -The Prius uses the electric motor as the primary mode of power. The gas engine fuels the motor directly, or powers up the battery. This allows the Prius to more easily go into "stealth" mode, which allows it to travel ~30MPH on electric alone (so long as it isn't too hilly, or the driver doesn't accelerate/decelerate to quickly) for as long as the battery isn't low on juice -The Civic uses the electric motor almost like a turbo; it is strictly an acceleration assist device; the gas engine is always the primary energy source. The newer Civics have a limited "stealth" mode, but all reports seem to sugest it's much harder to maintain than the Prius -The Civic utilizes a technology that allows some of the cylinders to be shutdown, particularly during highway travel. This is sometimes called "lean burn" mode. At highway cruising speeds, even at 75-80MPH, your car doesn't need much more than 20-30 horsepower. Even the 1st-gen Civic and Prius provided more than double that. So in the Civic's case it shuts down these cylinders to get a boost in fuel efficiency. The Civic hybrid is generally considered the better highway fuel efficiency hybrid -The Prius, if the electric motor dies, is out of commission. The Civic can limp around on it's meager gas engine. The Prius requires the electric motor for all locomotion (even reverse) -The Civic doesn't have folding seats (that's where the battery pack is), while the new Prius does -Both hybrids also are rated at least SULEV. The newer ones are all rated as PZ-ATEV, which is about as low as you can go without buying Icarus' car Lower pollution is always a good thing, even if there is no immediate cost benefit
As far as I can tell, both the Civic and the Prius use these different techs to get to the same mileages. Over any extended highway travel, I'm never lower than ~43MPG. In the winter, and around the Boston area's highways, that is; the efficiency is much better in the summer. The car does more poorly in city traffic, but it still never droops below 30MPG, even if all I do is my commute plus in-Boston travel (which is not exactly smooth driving). The Civic, with tax credit, is the same price as a high end conventional Civic, minus sun/moon roof.
--- I find that cars like the Camry can max out at 40MPG, but the conditions this occurs under is not always clear. So be careful making off the cuff comparisons.
--- As for braking on the highway, I don't understand why a hybrid would do any worse than a conventional car, or would need to brake more often. The regeneration maxes out at a certain point, and more conventional ABS braking kicks in.
I've seen my car going 65MPH (in a 55MPH) in lean burn mode and getting over 55MPG. Even outside of lean burn mode, going 75MPH, I over 40MPG, easy. ---
And once again check out greenhybrid.com (I am not affiliated) for the only decent database of real world hybrid performance... For all hybrids.
Here is a link to their mileage chart, which includes bars for the standard deviation from average:
Remember this is not just highway mileage, this is total lifetime mileage.
-Bok
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
The thing I've heard about hybrids also is that the electric battery dealie thing usually has to be replaced after 2 years, and apparently this is a large expense.
-pH
Posted by cheiros do ender (Member # 8849) on :
My parents friends run an organisation that own almost twenty hybrids. They're so unbelievably cool. And they smell a lot less. That's probably the selling point for me. Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
pH, that issue has already been brought up and answered in this thread.
quote:Originally posted by Bokonon: Not true. Every hybrid out there has at least an 80/000 mile/8 year warranty on the battery. 3-5 years ago, these battery packs were expensive (but moot, since everyone was under warranty). People have gone >100k miles without battery pack issues. There have been isolated cases of batteries losing their charge, but all were replaced under warranty.
The thought is that due to the acceptance of the hybrid (and accompanying economies of scale), the battery packs will be much more reasonable when people actually have to replace them.
-Bok
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
NOOOOOO! The battries are under warranty for at least 8years/80k [EDIT: 80k, not 800k ] miles (and some models even more). While there have been some isolated cases of bad battery packs, they have all been replaced under warranty, and the packs are rated, to begin with, to last over 100k miles.
Here is a link to a Boston Globe article quoting a local Honda salesman about the battery pack rating (for the Civic it appears to be 140k-160k without battery pack performance degradation). The quote is at the end:
Here is a quote from an enthusiastic Honda?Toyota dealer, about the batteries:
quote:If not longer. The battery packs, by the way, we�re seeing maybe a three percent deterioration over a simulated 150,000 miles, where they cycle it back and forth, 30 to 70, 30 to 70. They've been doing battery simulations for a long time. There's a bunch of companies that do that. In fact, I met with some of these companies out in California. At the hybrid symposium, I had a wonderful conversation with a few battery manufacturers. So these Nickel Metal Hydride's, as long as they're protected, and all the systems work as planned and they are, these batteries can easily go 200,000 miles, maybe 300,00, [sic] maybe forever. You just don't replace them.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
80k miles would last...maybe three or four years for me.
I've got 32K on the car I bought new in June of 2004.
-pH
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
That's the warranty. There are people with well over 100k miles, and no issues.
From most accounts, it looks like you'd get 7-10 years of driving in before a replacement.
-Bok
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I know, but warranty is a big issue with me.
My car's warranty is up to 100k miles.
Which is pretty much the longest available.
The year part vs. milage doesn't matter too much to me because I drive my car a LOT. So I'd rather have a 6 year/100k warranty than an 8 year/80k warranty, since warranties generally expire when one of the two comes first.
Anyways. I will seriously consider a hybrid for my next car, since I'm sure the technology is becoming more and more reliable.
-pH
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Actually, the hybrid system is inherently more reliable than any conventional system. The electric motor is a simple mechanical device. I haven't heard a single problem with it. The small 4-cylinder engines are likewise well-understood tech. The tech is reliable now. The hybrids have faired as good as their non-hybrid counterparts (at least, the Civic has). The Civic itself is a famously reliable ride.
There are many reasons NOT to by a hybrid, but complexity is not really one of them.
-Bok
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Out of curiosity, what reasons do you see *not* to buy a hybrid, other than cost?
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
If that's directed at me, Noemon, I don't see any reason at all. I'm pretty sold on the idea of buying one. The only drawbacks to me are price, and the possibility of some newer/better tech coming along. The second one is not that likely since anything new would still be years from production and likely very expensive at first.
I'm not planning to buy very soon. I'm going to stay with my Hyundai as long as I can if it keeps performing as it has. But I'll feel better about my next purchase if by the time it happens I've put a LOT of thought into it.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Does anyone know if any minivan hybrids are on the horizon? I know some SUV's are coming out as hybrids but I'd rather not drive an SUV but I have to have something that seats at least seven.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Ergonomics, mostly. The Civic can't have a folding back seat, or sun roof**. The Prius makes some (like my wife) feel clausterphobic in the front seat; it has a fairly severe sloping windshield. It also has some of the display info in the center panel, not in front of the driver (the 1st-gen Prius had everything in the center I think. Sounds a bit dangerous to me). Some people may not like the ride of the CVT, either. The cars are very modest in power... If you are used to a big horsepower car, you may feel like the hybrid is more dangerously slow, but I don't think this is actually the case; it's just that the bigger hp vehicles allow you to get away with more dangerous maneuvers you wouldn't bother trying in a hybrid. But if you are used to those moves, you will be disappointed.
(** Some people have added aftermarket sun roofs, but you void your warranty at that point. I haven't heard of any problems with them though)
Safety-wise, both cars, while decked out with airbags, have caused some emergency departments to worry about using the jaws of life with a NiMH pack that may or may not be leaking, as well as some high voltage wiring running through the cars).
Oh, and some of the cars, particularly the Prius in stealth mode, are so quiet while running that there is some worry from visually- and hearing-impaired circles that they can't hear hybrids coming when crossing the street. I'm not looking forward to the first highly-publicized report of a hybrid driver running a red light and hitting some poor blind lady that didn't know the car was coming...
--- That said, most of the hybrids are based off the more "luxurious" conventional counterparts in the same model. The Prius, 2nd-gen, is particularly geeky (bluetooth, nifty display, true keyless entry and push-button engine start). They are expensive, but with tax breaks they are really only marginally so over the comparable conventional model, the Civic in particular. You get very good emissions. You get better total mileage than anything but some diesels. Some of the minuses may be pluses (like the CVT, or autostop). You may not personally save money from fuel efficiency, but just upgrading from your current vehicle to hybrid means you are at least slowing oil consumption, partially**. Oh, and they retain their value. The Kelley bluebook trade-in value of my car (20k miles and fair condition, some scratches and dings that could be fixed) is $15,000. I paid $22000, including tax (5%), title, and lojack, and with the effective tax break. If I had chosen excellent condition, it'd be over $17k. The car, with a CVT had an [b]MSRP[b] of $20,500 (not including tax break)! I don't know about you, but it's rare to find a car that can hold up that well.
(** There are conflicting reports about this. SOme say that they hybrid battery and some other parts use up all the oil you save during manufacturing. I don't know how true it is)
-Bok
[ March 06, 2006, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: Bokonon ]
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Belle, getting to the point that I will be having kids (calm down folks, not this year ), I would die for a diesel-electric hybrid minivan, running clean diesel.
![[Grumble]](graemlins/grumble.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Lower pollution is always a good thing, even if there is no immediate cost benefit![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
]