I think it's impossible to achieve. How are young people supposed to by a house, have a child and white picked fences if they can't afford it because of student loans hanging over their heads and credit card debt from just trying to get from one month to the next? Not to mention high rent and low wages. It isn't right! The fifties weren't perfect, but at least people had the G I Bill to help them get started. Even blue collar people could get themselves a piece of the pie because of unionized manufacturing jobs but most of those factories have closed and moved to Mexico or someplace like that and the textile jobs have moved overseas so people who used to work there that once enjoyed high, decent wages now must work at Wal-mart for 8 bucks an hour and no overtime. What has happened to this country? How is it that these people cannot grasp the simple fact that if this keeps up there will be fewer people who can afford their 50 dollar shirts, let only 10 dollar shirts at Wal-mart or the luxtury car with heated seats. As the bachelor's degree becomes a high school diploma more and more people will need to go to grad school if they want the upper end jobs. But how can they with tons of loans hanging over their heads and when they lack the resources of the wealthy. It doesn't matter if you're conservative or liberal, we are screwed if this keeps up. Something has got to be done. We have got to put this bipartisan nonsense aside and REALLY start looking at the problem and figuring out what is best for this country or we're doomed. That's all there is to it.
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
I don't think it's dead at all. Anyone can achieve it, if they work hard enough, and know how to manage money.
Posted by Chungwa (Member # 6421) on :
As a struggling student, I don't think that "the American Dream" is impossible to achieve (and I am in massive, massive debt). I'm just not sure I really want to achieve it.
Granted, I agree with what you're saying otherwise.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Nope. it's not like that anymore. Used to be a time when you could work hard and get somewhere. Now it's about who you know. Now it's about wracking up debt just to get through between paychecks. Don't you see? Hard work doesn't count for anything. Just look at the some of these people who are in a high position I can't even hope to be in. They don't work. They don't do anything. They have parents with tons of money to help them out... I, and many others only have themselves. And that's part of the problem. People don't look out for each other the way they should... How can people even manage money if their rent is about 1,000 dollars, and they have to pay, say 500 for student loans, and there's food, unexpected expenses like the emergency room or having to go to a friend's wedding that end up being put on credit cards... It's so much harder for people now...
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
There is a lot of frustration and desperation out there. My wife and I went house shopping. Our budget for our first house is 150,000. The cheapest house we could find was a dank town-home that is as small as our current yucky apartment. It cost $149,000. A couple years ago it was going for $69,000
Your standard small little home with a tiny yard and no basement is starting at $250,000. Most nice ones are at about $350,000.
These are not big homes or indulgent homes. We are talking the basics! Starter homes. I was talking to a teacher whose wife doesn't work and his kids qualify for free lunch at the school he works full time at!!!
I should say that I live in one of the hottest housing markets in the nation right now. It is also a state that poorly pays teachers.
That being said, I know lots of people who are making the American dream work for them. They plotted their education better then the rest, have skilled jobs, and did not receive any special family support.
I believe the American dream is still there, we just need to be savvier. As we get older, the dream is harder to achieve.
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
NO, I totally don't agree with that. When you do work hard enough you can achieve things. I know I can. How about hmmmmm, NOT USING A CREDIT CARD. Or, if you are using it, only buy the bare essentials, and use as little electricity as possible. Eliminating extra food, extra water, extra electricity, and focusing your money on student loans, and the bare essentials, you could save a lot of money.
Posted by Chungwa (Member # 6421) on :
I know how you feel. There's been times where I've broken down in tears because I just didn't think I'd be able to get through the month. I went without a phone for almost the entirety of last year (and I went a few weeks without electricity). But things get better.
I'm not saying that we shouldn't be fighting to make things easier - we most certainly should. But there's still some ability to move up the economic ladder (actually, I don't think that aspect of the American Dream has changed much - though the "ladder" has never been easily climbed).
Posted by R. Ann Dryden (Member # 8186) on :
I agree that it's hard. But considering that I wasn't alive in the 50's, I can't comment objectively on whether it is harder now than then.
My husband and I bought a condo when we got married 5 years ago. Within 7 months it had appreciated 20 thousand dollars. Yay! we cried and patted each other on the back. Then 9/11 happened. It took a couple months for the trickledown to reach the housing market, which got very stale for a couple years. Now the houses are picking up steam again, but condos have not. There has only been one sale in our HOA in two years and that person sold for 20 grand less than he paid for it just to get rid of it. With no other comps, our condo has just significantly depreciated. If we sold now we'd still owe money.
In the meantime the housing market has gone back up, and we've gone from two salaries to one and a stay at home mom. So not only can we not afford to live here anymore, we can't sell. And even if we could sell, we couldn't buy anything cheaper and we'd have to rent. And we can't keep the condo and rent it out because with HOA dues we pay $1100 a month, and some units in the building are renting for $750, with the most expensive being $900.
Sigh. This frustrates me quite a bit, especially in combination with the fact that we were debt-free when we got married (my hubbie went to college in Scotland ten years earlier, and I never went at all), and now we struggle to keep the credit cards between 10 and 15 grand. If credit cards weren't so easy to obtain, perhaps we wouldn't rationalize that we need them so much and find a way to pay for things with cash. But when those unexpected costs come up and you have absolutely no savings because you're living hand to mouth, it's very challenging.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Synesthesia,
I think you're misunderstanding what the American Dream actually is. There are two basic 'levels' of the American Dream. One level is that if a person honestly works hard and applies themself to finding a decent job, they will find it and it will be a living wage with money to spare enough to provide a decent standard of living. This level is currently a reality in the USA.
The other level is that if a person wishes to excel, to become either wealthy or a business leader or both, then the ultimate deciding factor in whether they do or not is their own effort and ability. In other words, if a smart, dedicated man or woman applies themself to being the best in their field, they will be the best and thus be handsomely rewarded. This level is currently met, too.
quote:How are young people supposed to by a house, have a child and white picked fences if they can't afford it because of student loans hanging over their heads and credit card debt from just trying to get from one month to the next? Not to mention high rent and low wages. It isn't right!
What, it's supposed to be easy? The American Dream says nothing about easy, and everything about possible.
quote:The fifties weren't perfect, but at least people had the G I Bill to help them get started.
I'm sure you have some idea of what many men and women had to go through to meet the requirements of the GI Bill. In many cases, much much worse than high rents.
quote:Even blue collar people could get themselves a piece of the pie because of unionized manufacturing jobs but most of those factories have closed and moved to Mexico or someplace like that and the textile jobs have moved overseas so people who used to work there that once enjoyed high, decent wages now must work at Wal-mart for 8 bucks an hour and no overtime.
It is more difficult to find such a job, granted. But neither is it impossible. I am currently working in such a job, actually-an unskilled labor job that pays quite well with excellent benefits. You mention this change as though it's all bad, though. Prices are lower by doing this, and so all people save money instead of essentially subsidizing the standard of living for factory workers by paying a falsely-inflated market price for their goods. As for Wal-Mart, no one is forced to work there. In no region is Wal-Mart the sole employer.
quote:What has happened to this country? How is it that these people cannot grasp the simple fact that if this keeps up there will be fewer people who can afford their 50 dollar shirts, let only 10 dollar shirts at Wal-mart or the luxtury car with heated seats. As the bachelor's degree becomes a high school diploma more and more people will need to go to grad school if they want the upper end jobs. But how can they with tons of loans hanging over their heads and when they lack the resources of the wealthy.
None of this is news. There is a substantial gap between $50.00 shirts and $10.00 shirts. Very few cars actually have heated seats. As we become a more technologically advanced society, requiring a higher degree of education for the high-end jobs is inevitible. And still attainable, without the resources of the wealthy (though of course with those resources all is easier), per the American Dream.
quote:Nope. it's not like that anymore. Used to be a time when you could work hard and get somewhere. Now it's about who you know.
This is bull@#$%. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but it just is, frankly. First of all, it's always been very helpful to know people. Second, you can still work hard and get somewhere. Care to hazard a guess as to what number of the wealthiest Americans are self-made, and which were born to it?
quote:Hard work doesn't count for anything. Just look at the some of these people who are in a high position I can't even hope to be in.
Hard work always counts for something. Competence is unfortunately not always the biggest requisite, but that's nothing new.
quote:How can people even manage money if their rent is about 1,000 dollars, and they have to pay, say 500 for student loans, and there's food, unexpected expenses like the emergency room or having to go to a friend's wedding that end up being put on credit cards... It's so much harder for people now...
Where do you live exactly that you are compelled to shell out $1,000.00 per month in rent alone? If money is so tight, perhaps you shouldn't put things like a wedding on your credit card.
Or does the American Dream include that, and somehow I missed it?
Posted by R. Ann Dryden (Member # 8186) on :
So, my contribution to the dream has been as follows: I'm staying home with my daughter even though by doing so I'm committing financial suicide.
On the other hand I know that I'm the best possible caretaker for her by virtue of the fact that I'm her mother, and by staying home I also don't pay for outside childcare.
I'm also writing a lot. My goal is to make enough money from my writing over time that eventually it will be able to count as a second income for us. I've always hated punching clocks anyway, this is much more my dream. Unfortunately, it takes years to get to that point, but I'm working hard at getting there ASAP.
Posted by Augustine (Member # 9225) on :
I think the American dream is now harder to achieve, but it isn’t yet out of our grasp. We have to live more conservatively. Americans refuse to believe that our economy is not the best anymore, but we are still at the top. We refuse to believe that the American dream is harder to conquer, and when topics like this are rose we have to think instead of saying what we want to hear. The American dream has also changed, as times have changed. To me the American dream is freedom, and a life out of debt with a loving family. The worst outcome of not achieving the dream is still better than best possibilities in third world countries. The American dream, like our economy, is now in a recession. The position of our economy has a direct affect on the American dream, which is different for everybody.
When we want to accomplish something, there are hundreds of ways to do it, and we have the freedom to choose which way to do it. We have such a variety of goods and services, it is impossible not to find something in your budget to fit your needs and wants. The American dream is still alive, but not as well as it used to be.
[ March 05, 2006, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: Augustine ]
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
I think there are two issues here. One is the American Dream and the other is marriage.
Before, so I have been lead to believe, you could live quite nicely off of one income. The man worked and if the woman worked, then her income was extra money.
I find this hard to believe. There was poverty in the 50s. There was disillusionment. There was sadness. There were also, apparently, lots of single income families.
As R. Ann Dryden illustrated, it is harder to live off of one income. Possible...but harder.
If H. and I were not married, I would be worse off. I have the more stable job, but my wife works hard. When she lived in Japan, she REALLY worked hard. Together we could afford a house. I would be in a much similar circumstance as Synesthesia if I were single. I would pull out of it by living with a bunch of roomies till my career was more settled.
I believe the American dream is still alive, but once you reach a certain age, I think it is easier to achieve if you have the support of a spouse.
Synesthesia, I seem to recall you are lesbian. Or do you just support the homosexual cause? Do you have a full partner who supports you and whom you could support? Do you think if gay marriage were legal and you got married that your circumstances would improve?
Rakeesh made a point about a wedding on a credit card. Am I completely in the dark here?
Or is this too much of a tangent? I don't want to derail.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Well, I'm not exactly a lesbian (As I seem to be in love with some random man these days) But I am a bit complicated and weird... It would be nice to have a partner, but I don't see getting a partner happening any time soon or getting a permanant job happening any time either... But that could be because I simply do not know how to work the system, or how to get a job or any of those things. This job I have now is temp, I really wish I could get the job I had working over the summer permanantly (it's at the same place, only in a different department, I got paid so much more and the work was a lot better too.) but I do not see how that is possible. It seems easier to get a job if you know people and have people that like you. That way you can skip the step of having your application be one of thousands on a desk. And I know I don't want to work any of the low paying jobs around here that are close to me and wouldn't involve a cab ride simply because those jobs do not pay well and I never want to work that sort of job again. Never... Yes, it sounds lazy and bad, but that's all there is to it... I was thinking more of a friend of mine who is working 4 jobs to pay off her wedding. I wish I had a bunch of money to give her. And now I am reading a book called Strapped about all of these young couples that are struggling to make ends meet even as they work hard and also individuals. I have gone through the same thing and still am, and it could be like this for years. The prospects are depressing. There is my social phobia to consider. I just don't know if I have the skills to make it in some sort of competative market, even though I WANT to work. My American dream is to contribute to society and to shape it... And maybe if I meet the right person to do all that scary stuff like marriage and possibly kids, even though it's frightening as all hell. I think the American Dream has become an empty promise, like so many things, like this form of patriotism I hate. In which so many things go wrong, but people get distracted by the CONCEPT of a strong country that is the best in the world too much to realize that we really have a long way to go to really make this country great. I see the things that helped us to achieve a high standard of living slowly get eroded and nothing gets done about it. It isn't right... If this keeps up, we're really not going to be able to compete with all of these other countries in the world and it is NOT such a good thing to have so many cheaply made cheap goods flooding the market. In the long run, it really isn't.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Excellent post, Rakeesh.
I'm sorry if I seem unsympathetic. You have no idea how much I do sympathize. But I have seen in my life, over and over again, that people with perseverance and a strong work ethic can achieve moderate success over time. I think a lot of people misunderstand what the "American Dream" is.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:I think it's impossible to achieve. How are young people supposed to by a house, have a child and white picked fences if they can't afford it because of student loans hanging over their heads and credit card debt from just trying to get from one month to the next?
I've pretty much acheived it (at least for now), and it wasn't because my parents were rich (I put myself through college) and it wasn't because of who I knew (I came out to college 1000 miles from home knowing nobody, and went from there). I made it because I have always lived within my means, even when that meant for many, many years having a standard of living that was extremely low for the first world. This made it possible for me to make it through college, which allowed me to get very good job.
Living within my means also meant that I have never had any credit card debt or other consumer debt, which can be absolutely crippling.
quote:having to go to a friend's wedding that end up being put on credit cards...
The word "have" shouldn't be in that sentence. You can decide to go to a friend's wedding and put it on a credit card, but at the same time you are deciding to shackle yourself with the chains of debt. The American Dream doesn't say that you can eat your cake and keep it too.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I know i'm never going to touch a credit card again. I had probably one or 2 credit cards (because at my college these companies would call kids at 8 in the morning on a saturday and wouldn't leave them alone until they agreed to get one) and bought 2 little things with them and now owe quite a bit for them. There's no way I could get a car anytime soon and I don't want to buy a new one and basically have to get stuck renting a car. If I do get one, I'm going to buy a hoopty that no one else wants or would even think of stealing. Or I'd buy a car from an auction for extremely cheap. I still have a ton of student loans hanging over my head that I have to start paying next month a bit at a time... But never again will I bother with credit cards or any of that stuff. To me credit cards are nothing but a conspiracy.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote: [QUOTE]having to go to a friend's wedding that end up being put on credit cards...
The word "have" shouldn't be in that sentence. You can decide to go to a friend's wedding and put it on a credit card, but at the same time you are deciding to shackle yourself with the chains of debt. The American Dream doesn't say that you can eat your cake and keep it too.
I wondered about that while reading that book. Couldn't the friends understand that the couple was having money problems and it wasn't that they didn't care about them but they just couldn't go? I just didn't get that... Some friends they are if they go, "You don't love us, you didn't go to our wedding!" I am a bit afraid of weddings myself.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I don't see how you can call it a conspiracy, since they are very open about what they are doing.
But I agree -- so often people sell their future in exchange for momentary pleasures. It's almost like selling your birthright for a bowl of porridge.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
It is true that there are some people who require you to live up at a certain standard of living (like being able to take off for wedding) in order to be their friends. People like that don't last as my friends.
I remember at a family gathering overhearing some of my very well-to-do cousins chatting about how a guy asked one of them out. "He doesn't even have a car!" she exclaimed. They were scandalized that somebody without a car would ask her out.
I never owned a car until I got married and Beverly's car became half mine. Besides that car, the only other one I've ever owned is a minivan.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: I don't see how you can call it a conspiracy, since they are very open about what they are doing.
But I agree -- so often people sell their future in exchange for momentary pleasures. It's almost like selling your birthright for a bowl of porridge.
And yet, sometimes it's not just about momentary pleasures. There really are people who have high rents because they live in areas that have outrageous rents to get a job and need a credit card just to buy things like food or to pay for car repairs and things like that. So not everyone is buying expensive stereos and expensive computers. But, when I buy things like that I usually use my debit card. That way I don't end up paying a ton of extra money for what I buy. Both of my stereos were paid for with debit or with a money order and I did a lot of research to find the best least expensive one. This computer was half the price of a name brand computer too... But that is because I have seen credit for the evil demon that it is. It's ridiculous how high these interest rates are! Plus, I didn't even know that if you're an hour or a day late in paying they can raise your interest rates. Never again... I don't care if I ever own a house as long as I don't have to touch those satanic pieces of plastic ever again.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:There really are people who have high rents because they live in areas that have outrageous rents to get a job and need a credit card just to buy things like food or to pay for car repairs and things like that.
If you can't pay your rent without a credit card, then you need to move somewhere else.
I am pleased that you have decided to not subject yourself to credit cards anymore. It makes it much more likely that you will own a house some day.
For what it's worth, I have four credit cards, and I use them regularly. It's more convenient than cash or a credit card. But every month I pay it all off.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Perhaps that's not an option for some of these people. I just strongly never want to live with my parents ever again. I doubt I'll be able to own a house... This is because of those MEDICAL BILLS on top of that one or two credit cards where I just bought 1 or 2 things. Literally, one or two things... It's like borrowing from the mafia without Vinny and Bruno coming to the door to break your legs. Never again.
Posted by Theaca (Member # 8325) on :
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: I was thinking more of a friend of mine who is working 4 jobs to pay off her wedding.
See, that was her choice. One can always do a small wedding and use relatively inexpensive rings. It was her choice to have a big $$ day or expensive rings or expensive honeymoon.
Syn, have you thought about looking for an apartment you can share with other people? That saves a lot of money.
You are a college grad, right? What was your major and minor? If you are working hard, but not using your degrees/talents then you aren't going to get as far.
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
quote: And yet, sometimes it's not just about momentary pleasures. There really are people who have high rents because they live in areas that have outrageous rents to get a job and need a credit card just to buy things like food or to pay for car repairs and things like that. So not everyone is buying expensive stereos and expensive computers.
Have you considered moving to a new place within your means and starting over? You have a degree and marketable skills -- maybe if you just manage to get away from where you are right now then you'd find a better need for what you have to offer.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I'm a writing major. My rent is not as high as it could be. It used to lower though. I can't live with other people. I am a terrible person. Whst I really need to do is to spend less time on line and less time watching stupid television shows and work on organizing this novel. There's no way it would be a best seller, it's too disturbing, but I really want it to EXIST.
Posted by Kristen (Member # 9200) on :
In short: The ideals of the old American Dream are now skewed and focus on immediate personal success rather than longterm security.
I think the problem with the good ol' American Dream lies in the fact that children of my generation are of the 'Me' generation: we are heaped with an abundance of self-esteem and at the same time, taught less discipline to guide both our personal and finacial lives because, currently, nuturing individuality is more essential than training to succeed in the real world.
These kids are then caught in the paradox of not knowing how to properly maintain financial frugality, yet they are also filled with ideals of a deserved 'high life' stemming from both excessive self esteem catering and the materialistic unrealistic media. Often, even if they do have a steady paycheck, their expectations make it so they find it impossible to 'live on' what would realistically be a stable income or blow it on pricey commercial goods in order to give the appearence of living the good life, or because they think that they are entitled to them.
Their notion of the American Dream is not fueled by pragmatism, for no longer is the ability to provide for yourself and others the crux of it; now, while becoming successful is still important, what is truly important is APPEARING so, at whatever the cost. This usually manifests in the aquisition of commercial goods at the expense of saving for the future and the risk of debt.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by sarcasticmuppet:
quote: And yet, sometimes it's not just about momentary pleasures. There really are people who have high rents because they live in areas that have outrageous rents to get a job and need a credit card just to buy things like food or to pay for car repairs and things like that. So not everyone is buying expensive stereos and expensive computers.
Have you considered moving to a new place within your means and starting over? You have a degree and marketable skills -- maybe if you just manage to get away from where you are right now then you'd find a better need for what you have to offer.
This place is within my means... At least if I lose this job and have to get a lesser paying job, my rent would go down. My rent has only gone up because the amount of money I make has gone up. Plus they allow me to keep Bernie and that is ideal... I like it here, but it would be better if I had a car... Perhaps someday I'll have one (Especially if I make getting a car a high priority than...) But, I am more concerned for people who are not lucky to have low, extremely obscenely low rent for a whole year and instead have to pay 2 times what I pay now for a smaller place...
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kristen: In short: The ideals of the old American Dream are now skewed and focus on immediate personal success rather than longterm security.
I think corporations these days are even worse than the individuals when it comes to this. I still don't understand the logic of closing factories down and moving production to places where the costs are cheaper, but it seems to only be good for a short-term profit. In the long term when most people are working low paying jobs and finally figure out that it's not a good idea to buy a 30,000 car and end up paying more than that for car loans and car payments than I see these companies start to suffer from their short sightedness just as a person would suffer from watching their luxtury car get towed away that they couldn't afford in the first place.
i bet that had a ton of grammar errors...
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
About the GI Bill, it's still in force as far as I know. All you have to do is join up, and go to Iraq to be shot at.
Posted by Kristen (Member # 9200) on :
Ooohh, Synesthesia, good point! I agree that quarterly reports have become more important than a solid longterm plan of success. I wonder if the individuals in charge of this are also from the Me/X generation as many boomers these days have retired (and I assume the CEOs would want an early retirement).
That reminds me: did you hear that internet providers are considering charging extra for each time you download music/video/use the internet for anything 'extra'? Only the most [evil] short-sighted individuals could ever come up with something like that...
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
It's foolish because the internet should continue to be a vast wonderland of free expression and not yet another way to make a buck. People get tired of that. Perhaps if these folks continue to make little attacks towards people's wallets they'll wake up and raise a little hell.
I'm not sure about the X generation thing. I think they want to make as much money as possible without really thinking on the impact they have on society, the workers, the environment and any of that stuff. I think nowadays it's important to consider and think about these things. Like when it comes to mothers who need to work in order to make ends meet, but also have children, why not let them work at home or provide onsite daycare? And why not do the same for fathers too? This costs extra money, but it leads to happier workers who can take care of themselves and their families better and work beetter. Like a person who needs to stay home from work to take care of a sick child, but still needs to work to make money. Techology makes telecommuting posible... I just finished reading a book about Wal-mart and I wonder how can they be successful when 50 percent of their workers get fed up and leave? They'd probably save a ton of money if they improved their work conditions because then they wouldn't have to train new people...
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
When Bev and I got married, I was amazed at the other poor married students, making no more than Bev and I were, going out and buying all this nice furniture to furnish their new apartments. Time and time again, I've seen people in my generation act as though they are entitled to the high life that their parents had. The big difference, of course, is that most of their parents had to work a lifetime to acheive that standard of living.
Posted by theresa51282 (Member # 8037) on :
I find this post strangely sad. I do ok financially. Mostly because I have a significant other who makes a larger income. But even when I was a poor single grad student putting myself through school, I still felt incredibly lucky. I guess I have just look at what little others have elsewhere and am amazed at all I have.
So much of what we as Americans consider needs are entirely wants. They just seem like needs because nearly everyone is so well off here that they all have them. Somehow, that has become the justification for being a need. For example, I look in my kitchen and see 10 bowls sitting in the sink. I have 10 bowls because it is convenient and seems reasonable enough. However, I could certainly get by with only 2. In fact, I only really require one dish at all. I could wash it after everymeal. I am not posting all this to make you feel bad. I am not saying that we should all give up all of the conveniences and luxuries we use. I guess I am just suggesting we spend more time reflecting on what we have and consider being more generous to others less fortunate. Even at our worst we tend to have more things than others at their very best times.
Posted by Kristen (Member # 9200) on :
The mentality behind a corporate giant like Walmart or McDonald's, where I worked and was thus exposed to it, is the notion of replaceability. Every worker, since it was unskilled labor, could be theorectically fired and replaced without much effort, as there are always people looking for jobs so it wouldn't cost too much to get rid of one for another.
I definitely don't agree with this, but that was the stance they choose to take rather than try to foster a pleasant work environment. It was clearly part of company policy.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:So much of what we as Americans consider needs are entirely wants.
True, true, true, true, TRUE!
Posted by theresa51282 (Member # 8037) on :
The worker as a cog in the machine mentality is not new. In fact, if you read almost any of the literature from the pre 1940s era, managers were trained to view all their workers as cogs. One of the large areas of study at the time was in finding the most efficient way to do something and then training all the workers to do it exactly that way. Independent thinking and individuality in workers was not valued at all. If you ever saw the movie or read the book Cheaper by the Dozen, the day worked in this field. I am working on a masters in communication and when I took organizational communication we read a lot of the literature on the evolving views of the worker and the best ways to manage a worker. Things have actually improved quite dramatically in my opinion.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
True... But oddly enough I feel I need a stereo. Sounds weird, but I do... And yet I don't have a car or more furniture than this couch and this desk for my computer and this stand thing I have, but those were all free. I never understand spending a ton of money for furniture when you get get so much stuff for free or for a fraction of the price. It depends on the weird priorities. I am taking forever to buy a new bed so instead I just have a mattress.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:It's foolish because the internet should continue to be a vast wonderland of free expression and not yet another way to make a buck.
Ummm...why, exactly? Seeing as how we have limited resources, and it requires resources to create and maintain content on the Internet, why exactly shouldn't the Internet have income of resources as well as expense?
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:I definitely don't agree with this, but that was the stance they choose to take rather than try to foster a pleasant work environment. It was clearly part of company policy.
This is why people should be steered away from viewing either of these as a career option.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by theresa51282: The worker as a cog in the machine mentality is not new. In fact, if you read almost any of the literature from the pre 1940s era, managers were trained to view all their workers as cogs. One of the large areas of study at the time was in finding the most efficient way to do something and then training all the workers to do it exactly that way. Independent thinking and individuality in workers was not valued at all. If you ever saw the movie or read the book Cheaper by the Dozen, the day worked in this field. I am working on a masters in communication and when I took organizational communication we read a lot of the literature on the evolving views of the worker and the best ways to manage a worker. Things have actually improved quite dramatically in my opinion.
Could be worse... there could be child labour and conditions like there are in China. There's more than one reason I won't shop at Wal-mart. I didn't even know about the indentured servidude and how these people have to sleep in company owned dorms and are not allowed to leave even though I knew about their long working hours... We do have it good, but it could always be better, or at least reasonable. I feel bad for the folks here who work in chicken factories and get carpal tunnel and cannot even go to the bathroom when they need to so they go in their pants.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:It's foolish because the internet should continue to be a vast wonderland of free expression and not yet another way to make a buck.
Ummm...why, exactly? Seeing as how we have limited resources, and it requires resources to create and maintain content on the Internet, why exactly shouldn't the Internet have income of resources as well as expense?
Probably because I am an idealist and believe there should be pockets of unregulated places. Free expression. And if you already pay a monthly fee for internet access why should you pay extra for email or something like that? Although, I am using launchcast + right now, but that is rather reasonable considering I get to listen to metal core and I don't have to endure irratating commercials between Ella Fitzgerald songs. I just don't think that every service on the net should cost a ton of money if you already pay a ton of money as it is for net access.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
This thread reminds of a passage I read this morning, from Paul Dunbar's "The Uncalled." Fred Brent is in his first year in seminary, a profession he was pushed into by circumstance, and a friend says to him:
"It's all very nice and easy to talk about striking out for oneself, and all that. I've been through it all myself. My advice to you is, stay here, go through the academic discipline and be a parson; Get into a rut if you will, for some ruts are safe. When we are buried deep, they keep us from toppling over. This may be a sort of weak philosophy I am trying to teach you, but it is the happiest...If we could only pass the pitfalls of that dreaming age of youth, most of us would get along fairly well in this matter-of-fact old world. But we are likely to follow blindly the leaadings of our dreams until we run our heads smack into a corner-post of reality."
That said, the American Dream is possible, but for some, they have to be willing to get themselves in a rut, so to speak.
In other words, Synesthesia, suck it up or don't, but don't pretend that you haven't options, it's just a matter of choosing your degradation.
[ March 05, 2006, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
But I am sucking it up. I am working temp in hopes of getting experience and all of that... It's a lot of other folks that have it a lot worse though, and in the long run... well, it won't be pretty... That's why it's time to try and change things now...
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote:I feel bad for the folks here who work in chicken factories and get carpal tunnel and cannot even go to the bathroom when they need to so they go in their pants.
quote:Even blue collar people could get themselves a piece of the pie because of unionized manufacturing jobs but most of those factories have closed and moved to Mexico or someplace like that and the textile jobs have moved overseas so people who used to work there that once enjoyed high, decent wages now must work at Wal-mart for 8 bucks an hour and no overtime.
And yet you are bothered that the US is taking cheap work to foreign countries? I don't know that much about it, but it seems that while there are less "cheap labor" jobs available to Americans, bringing that work to other countries is benefiting the other countries. "Spreading the American Dream" around, so to speak.
You know what? I don't mind one bit. Just because I was born an American doesn't mean I deserve the American Dream more than someone born in another country. Why should I be entitled to anything?
Same reason immigration doesn't bother me, or the helping of illegal aliens.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Darn it! I hate when the computer crashes and I lose my entire post!
Are we really helping these countries if all the get is 25 cents an hour and 12-14 hours of work? If all they are making is 50 dollars a month and most of that, in the case of Wal-mart and China goes towards their living expenses (in dorms, about 75% of their pay goes towards that) than are they really being helped or are companies just getting to save a ton of money at the expense of these people? I think they are being exploited, but would they really be better off without these jobs? I don't even know how much Mexican workers get to manufacture these cars, but the problem I have is that if they pay workers even less in China or Bangledesh or something than they will just close down the factories, put people out of work there just like they did in the US and then move to China or to another country where rights are limited and work these people like indentured servents. I hate that system. It seems so morally wrong to me.
And how can the needs of corporations to make money be balanced with the needs of their workers and their families? It seems that corporations shouldn't have the obligation to provide child care or maternity or paternity leave or sick pay for parents, and yet it seems like a good idea because it is helpful to their workers and in the long run more helpful to the company. Is it that people no longer care about the long term effects of things? Like the long term effects of closing factories and moving them to other countries than just doing the same thing when some toehr country says, "Well, you can pay our workers 25 cents or a dollar and you won't have to put up with pesky unions or pay health care." It really ends up shortchanging a lot of people in the long run.
Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
Ok, American dream not dead. However, most my thoughts on it would probably be quite offensive to most people. I've gone that round and don't want to hassle it again.
Anyway, 8 bucks an hour...I would have loved that when I worked at a store. I was making 6.25 an hour. It was actually more than the guy I worked for was making. Now days I get paid twice a month at some unreal low amount (thank heavens for BAH and BAS). It's not too bad, but the boss takes about a 30 some odd percent take of it.
Btw, GI Bill, is for military only. It was put in act in 1944. And we have to pay into it first. I tell ya, an E-1 paying 100 bucks a paycheck isn't an easy thing to consider . However, in the long run it pays off. GI Bill.
You can find decent rent. You just have to do a little work to find it. Heck, I found some nice rents in CA even. Where I'm at now is a steal (I'm in NY now). One of the guys I work for is upset at me because I found a place on the lake (with lake access) for half the rent that he's paying not on a lake.
An' I'm not even going to get started on unions. The UAW kinda ruined anything I ever had good to say about unions.
What's wrong with 10 dollar shirts? Except for the fact that I think 10 bucks is a bit pricey. I go through shirts quickly, so I have to buy the cheap 5 dollar shirts. That or I should stop fixing my own truck.
No one really lacks the resources of the wealthy. We are just taught differently about money. Poor: Work hard, save money. Rich: Work smart, invest smart. Middle class Americans rarely ever invest their money. Most think that it is too hard or they don't have the funding for it. Some may be right. The big problem is that they are too scared due to all this to even look into it.
I know for a fact that whatever I go through now, I will not have to worry for my future. Regardless of SocSec. SocSec could be gone for all I care when I reach that age, and I won't need it. I invest my money for my future. Yes, it makes my budget a bit tighter (a lot tighter actually). However, I have a 50 dollar allotment to a mutual fund evry month. I have a Roth IRA that I put at least 300 in every month (except the past couple due to family issues draining funds). And then I also have an individual stock account that I put a little into every month. The dividends from those stocks get directly re-invested which just gets me more stock.
We are so spend spend spend. Sure spend your money. Wisely. Invest in yourself first.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
This thread just makes me feel lucky. For a long time, I've had the image of myself as doing it all on my own. I worked hard in high school and got a full scholarship with a stipend to the university I'm at. But lately I've been thinking about how much I really haven't done it on my own.
I spent this weekend car shopping because my brother-in-law is going to cosign on a loan for me. My past experiences with really old cheap cars has been very bad and a huge financial drain. My brother-in-law cosigning will open up a lot of opporunities to me. I'll be able to work in a field that interests me (the public transportation system in this area varies from a joke to nonexistant) and feel secure that my car won't break down at any moment. I feel so grateful for this and it makes me realize how much I have been given in life. My scholarship happened largely because I went to a great school that my parents paid for via huge property taxes. I have parents who greatly value education. I grew up surrounded by people that didn't even really consider the possibility of living off of a $25,000 income. We all thought we'd achieve higher than that and we were all taught how to achieve higher than that. I have no doubt that I will achieve the American Dream. But then again I was lucky enough to be born into a family and area that would teach me exactly how to do that.
I do believe in the American Dream, but I also believe that it's exponentially harder for some than others. One's expectations and education about money make such a huge difference.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
On one hand I feel lucky because a lot of teachers and stuff helped me out, especially when going to school. They got me into this SAT course that is usually worth about 800 dollars but was discounted to 25 dollars for free, they hooked me up with college visits. Another teacher got me a bunch of essay contests to enter and put up with me doing them at the last minute, and another offered to drive me to college, but her car broke down so I took the bus. I have been lucky, but what I am concerned about are the people even worse off than me. Especially the ones with kids that have trouble getting child care. I feel so bad for them. Especially since good child care is about 1,300 or more.. Super quality child care. They have to make due with 200 dollar a month care or 300 and that's expensive enough and the quality is not always so good when the workers at those places are stressed out. If I lost my job I'd almost consider opening a child care place from my apartment but there are several factors to consider- I have a rabbit. Taking care of 5-10 children would drive me insane.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Oh yes, that rabbit, now. If you're really that short on money, the rabbit can help you on several levels :
1. No more carrots 2. Free meat!
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:How are young people supposed to by a house, have a child and white picked fences if they can't afford it because of student loans hanging over their heads and credit card debt from just trying to get from one month to the next?
They work their butts off, and they avoid getting credit card debt in the first place.
Credit card debt = bad debt. School loans = good debt. Home mortgage = good debt.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Hey, it's like good carbs and bad carbs! Good fats and bad fats!
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
But about the question on the other page...
Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
I'm always puzzled when people talk about the death of the American dream...but many times their decisions put them into the situation that they were in. For example, Syn you got a degree in writing because you enjoy writing...and want to write a novel. That was a choice that you made. You could have gotten a degree in business, and done much better financially when you got out of school. It was not the "death" of an American dream that put you out of college in debt with a degree that doesn't put food on the table, it was your choice.
Perhaps that seems mean or cold to say, but I feel I can say it since I put myself in a similar situation. I guess it doesn’t seem as bad to point out something you see as a mistake in someone else, when you admit that you did the same thing. Though perhaps mistake is the wrong word…it is more of a choice that led to a less than perfect outcome. I understand why you wanted a degree in writing and want to write a novel, because I chose to get a degree in psychology for the same reason. It was the life that I wanted. I was making a choice that many people thought was impractical, but it was the life that I wanted, so I made that choice anyway. Because of that, I got a master’s in developmental psychology. I was able to do it without going into debt, since I got a job working for the university and I shared a 30 year old apartment with a friend, but it is still a degree without a lot of options. I didn't get the job because of my parent’s connections; they didn't know anyone at the school. I got it because I worked my ass off as an undergrad and so the professor I worked for wanted me to stay on. However, things were not working out, so after I got my masters I left.
The job I have now didn't need parental connections either. I got a job working for the same grocery store that I worked at in high school and during breaks in college. I was able to get hired back because my old manager remembered my work ethic and wanted me back. I don't make much money now, and I work crazy hours, but I have a lot of room for growth into positions that will pay a lot later on. Do I ever think it sucks that I have a master’s degree and I make less than 20,000 a year (though it is quite a bit more than a made a year ago)? Yes. It can be frustrating at times, but I know if I work hard, I will move into a position where I am very comfortable in a few years (and actually very well off before to long). Would my life have been easier if I had gotten a business degree in college, and then gotten a good paying 9-5 job after college like some of my friends? Yes, things would have been easier for me if I had gone that route, but that is not what I wanted to do at the time. I didn’t want to have a career in the business world. I thought I would have more fun working as a college teacher, and writing on the side. Actually, I still think that is true...but I realize that it won’t happen, so I moved on to something else. Maybe my past choices mean that I have to work harder now, but that is life.
I think many times when people say that they American dream is dead, they don't know what the American dream is. You can still move up without family connections, or prior wealth. You simply have to work your ass off. Not only that, you have to work in a productive manner. I know people who work two jobs, but they don't put everything they have into either job. There are days when I don't feel like going into work, but I go anyway and when I'm there, people don't know I am feeling off. I make sure people think that I love working every day. That is how you move ahead in a company. Could I afford a child at my salary? No...but I wouldn't have a child at my salary, because I know it is not feasible. I don't buy things that I don't have the money for. I don't have anything on my credit card, because I know that I couldn't afford the interest even on one or two big purchases. There are things that I would like to have, but can't afford (like satellite radio) so I don't buy them. I've never bought a $50.00 shirt, because I'd feel nuts buying a shirt with money that could feed me for a week. I don't buy subs or sandwiches to eat at lunch, I bring my own lunch from home. I make my own dinner instead of eating out…and I buy cheap things to make. I buy enough to make a couple days worth of food, and eat leftovers. But before I buy the food, I calculate exactly how much money I am paying per serving. These are the kinds of things that you must do when you have a tight budget. Sometimes you just have to really understand the differences between wants and needs. I'd feel silly complaining about being poor when I have a TV, cable, and an internet connection. I don't think anyone can really be poor when they have those things.
Perhaps I seem insensitive, if so I am sorry. I guess this just hit a nerve with me, because I hate it when people don’t think you can pick yourself up in this country, when you really can. You simply have to really want it, and you have to realize that life isn’t supposed to be all hugs and puppy dogs, it is hard work….but success after working hard can be rewarding.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
I was talking to my uncle the other day about a perception that youth today "want it all". That is - kids want what their parents have, but instead of working for it, they want it now. They graduate uni and want a nice house, a nice car, a good job straight away.
I don't think that's a true generalisation (so few generalisations are!) but I think it does apply to some people.
Me - I'm the youth of today. And I have a house - with a hefty mortgage, and I couldn't have done it without my husband.
But our house is a 50 year old cottage in the "dodgy" side of Perth. It was sold as a "fixer-upper" and I imagine when we resell it, it will be bought for block value and bulldozed. But, it's ok for us. It's shelter, it's comfortable and it's ours. Well, mostly the bank's. But we're working on that.
I have friends who couldn't bear living in it, who would much rather pay rent and have a trendier place in a better location. That's fine - but that's a choice of lifestyle. It's not that they can't afford a home, it's just they can't afford the kind of home they ideally want.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
But what if it's not about wanting it all but wanting the basics? It doesn't make sense that a couple that has a child has to struggle to get quality child care because staying at home with the child AND paying the rent or the morgage isn't the option. What if folks are doing all that they can and STILL not getting anywhere? (And, I don't think I am suited to be a business person. I'd have to be a lot more extraverted than I am, I'd have to be good at a ton of things I just am not good at.)
Here's a question though- Is outsourcing manufacturing jobs really a good thing for people in countries like China or does it just send them to indentured servitude?
I'm not sure if I want it all, but I want to get ahead and feel secure and I just don't right now. Nothing to do about that but to keep working hard at this job and work overtime when they offer it and hope I can do a bit better, but I think it's hopeless right now that I'll ever own a house, let alone a car.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:But what if it's not about wanting it all but wanting the basics?
What basics? Shelter, food, clothing, electricity, running water and sewage? Are you lacking any of those?
quote:What if folks are doing all that they can and STILL not getting anywhere?
What do you mean by "getting anywhere"? Do you mean getting ahead of other people? Because that's another thing I don't think anybody's entitled to.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
quote: Nothing to do about that but to keep working hard at this job and work overtime when they offer it and hope I can do a bit better, but I think it's hopeless right now that I'll ever own a house, let alone a car.
And start a savings account. Put aside as much as you can from each paycheck (maybe cut out something non-essential that you buy: music, books, magazines - whatever works for you.) and put it in an account that you do not touch. Preferably one without keycard access.
Work out how much you pay on rent each month, and then work out what kind of house loan you'd be looking at with the equivalent amount on a mortgage repayment.
(For example: our minimum repayment is just under $1200/month: $300/week. When we rented (an admittedly nicer place) we paid $400/week. )
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Getting anywhere in terms of saving up for retirement or a home or their kid's college education. Getting anywhere in terms of improving their situation... Also the childcare thing. And in this case, it's really not about me who is happy living in my own apartment and not with parents or relatives. At least people, ideally, should be able to get... some sort of stability in their situation with their jobs and families as it really does work better for society.
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
To me, the American Dream is that we can do what we want to do - what we really want to do. We can't do everything we want to do, but if we choose the thing that we really want and put our efforts into it, it can be done. We just have to make the right choices.
The housing market is really frustrating me right now. We're in a tiny house that we bought 11 years ago that is now worth between 2x-3x what we paid for it then - and yet with all that equity we still couldn't move, because the cost of all the other houses has gone up by the same ratio, so our equity is just a drop in the bucket compared to what we'd need for a new house big enough for our rather large family.
But it's all about choices - we have chosen that I will not work while the kids are little, so that cuts down our income; we have chosen that we don't want to be slaves to our home, because we'd like to be able to go on vacation now and then - and that choice also limits what we have to put toward a house. Every time I see a new home that I'd love to live in, every time I trip over kids in the hall and bump into people in the bathroom and have no room to put groceries away, I remind myself that it's a choice. We'd rather live this way and have more time with each other, than live in a bigger home where we'd both have to work and we'd have no money for vacation even if we had time to take it. I sigh and I complain sometimes, but it's all my choice.
So most of us (barring Oprah) can't have it all, but if we choose right we can have the things that are most important to us - and maybe it's a good thing, to have to prioritize what's most important and realize that we have to sacrifice some of our wants in order to have what means the most to us. We appreciate it more that way. When we refuse to choose - when we have to have the big wedding and the new car and the nice furniture and a big house and a one-income family and vacations every year, all right now - the choices are thrust upon us; we get way into debt and then end up slaves to our bad choices. We have to decide before we act - what is most important to us? - and always put that first.
Posted by Jeni (Member # 1454) on :
quote: I'm not sure if I want it all, but I want to get ahead and feel secure and I just don't right now. Nothing to do about that but to keep working hard at this job and work overtime when they offer it and hope I can do a bit better, but I think it's hopeless right now that I'll ever own a house, let alone a car.
You're not restricted to a single job hoping for overtime. Spend the time you spend reading Hatrack at a second job, even some crappy retail job, and you'd be amazed at how much that extra cash would help. 40 hours a week really isn't all that much work, especially if you don't have a family to take care of at home.
Posted by jh (Member # 7727) on :
Child care may be expensive, but that is the way that the world works right now, even it may be unfair. Besides, there are tax credits for child care. People with children are also able to take more personal deductions than single people on their tax returns. Our tax code actually encourages people to have children.
I'm tired of people who know full well how expensive having a child is, decide to have a child, and then complain how much the child is. If you can't afford a child, don't have one until you can.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: About the GI Bill, it's still in force as far as I know. All you have to do is join up, and go to Iraq to be shot at.
KoM, it isn't quite that clear cut, actually. A lot of people HAVE the GI Bill (or the VA Loan program, which was what she was really talking about) but it isn't enough to buy a house these days, at least not in a lot of markets.
Also, if you still have to qualify independantly for the loan from a lender, although having the US government promise half the notes worth can help a bit. Some lenders/sellers don't want to deal with GI loans because of the extra red tape as well.
Posted by Jade Peat (Member # 9230) on :
Like many have said, the American Dream is not dead. Just that "the American Dream" and "what society tells you you should have" are out of alignment.
I was a ward of the state for my late teen years, and as a result, I had some support through charitable agencies as a teen and young adult so I could find a job and had a place to sleep, but I had no family to help me out at all. Just the kindness of strangers.
I'm 23 now, and since I was 17 I've been climing the job experience ladder. I started at minimum wage which is like $5.15 or something, worked my way up to $10.00/hr, and now I'm on salary as tech support for a software company making 30K+ a year, taking home net twice what I was at my last job.
How'd I do it?
1) I kept debt down and worked within my means. Granted, I had the mixed luck of having no medical insurance and some emergancy room visits early on, resulting in unpaid bills, so I was blocked from getting a credit card before I even thought to apply for one, but as a result I learned how to live without one, and the debt was small and easily paid off once I got more than minimum wage. The small debt basically blocked me from foolishly getting into larger debt with a credit card.
2) I figured out what my talents were, and developed and marketed them. When I was 16 and messing around running fansites I never knew I would end up in the IT industry because of those skills I taught myself! But I did! Develop skills that are useful in the marketplace.
3) I took new knowledge away from every prior job. For example, if I quit my current job now (I wouldn't, I enjoy it, but if I did), I can say I have experience with SQL, Oracle, Microsoft Access, MySQL, PHP, Museums, Software Testing, doing Tech Support, Technical Manual writing and editing, and more, and I've only been here since last June.
From the job before that, I learned the basics of Shipping Logistics, Inventory, eBay selling, Marketing, Negotiating and closing a deal, evaluating the worth of an object, Quickbooks, and more.
From the job before THAT, I was in retail, and I knew Cashier/money handling, Customer Service Desk, bookselling, grocery selling, retail management (from observing managers), shrink, and more.
Nowdays I wouldn't put in big letters "bookselling" in my resume unless it was relevent to the job I was applying to, but it's something I know, and in a bind if I went back into retail it would make me more appealing if I ever applied to a bookstore again, just because I'd know the basics. If you know how to word it, your past work experience is like a bag of legos that you can mix and match to a particular job ad. It's not easy to learn how to do this, but if you do learn it it's effective and lets you climb.
So, it's entirely possible to make a living and climb the ladder. I'm living proof of that. You just have to learn how things work, what your talents are, what your means are so you don't wrack up debt which can be devistating, and do things that will better your situation.
Also, you don't need a college education. I don't have one, although I am self-educated. College lets you start higher up the ladder, but not having it isn't an insurmountable wall to progressing.
Posted by Architraz Warden (Member # 4285) on :
I don't believe the American Dream is dead, but I can see where it's been operated on and perhaps been through an amputation or two. I like to feel that I'm living as close to the general path of the American Dream as I'm liable to in my life.
I graduated HS as the 50th percentile, and got into college primarily because of an above average SAT score, but far from something spectacular. Spent the first year there working and taking the basics. Spent a large percentage of the spring semester applying for scholarship. Even managed to get a few based on merit. Spent that first summer on a paying internship that I found posted on a bulletin. Second year I worked, and jeopardized my scholarships with slightly less spectacular grades. Second summer, work and classes. The third through sixth year (and their summers) went much the same, being a combination of school, work, and internships. All the while I managed to accumulate a somewhat fearful amount of student debt, but accumulating a better GPA as well. Graduated in the honor societies of both my majors. Spent two weeks recovering from the 6 year ordeal that was college, and then seriously started looking for work. Two weeks and 60 resumes hand delivered in two large cities with nothing but some loose leads. Two weeks after that and I caught a break, ended up with 80 resumes delivered, 8 interviews, and two actual job offers. Accepted one said job, and just passed my two year anniversary at the same firm.
Self-back patting from the above aside, no where in that process did I have to resort to a "who I know" situation. Not to get into college, not to graduate college, not to get a job. But yes, I saw it happen. And it pissed me off, until I had to get over it and get back to what I needed to do to help myself. And I've done that, to get probably less than half-way to where I'd like to be. I know that right know I'd have a hard time supporting a spouse, let alone a child. I'd love to look into house ownership, but that market has currently passed my by, and it'll likely be awhile before I can reach it again.
Are these desires reachable to me even now? Yes. Do I find it work waiting, and will they continue to be reachable to me in the future. Yes as well, and such is as much of a plan as I'm liable to make. This, to me, is the American Dream; the ability to reach my next goal in life, even if it requires sacrifices and hard work. The only reason I felt the need to write this is because that possibility is not dead for me. And, I suspect, not for many people.
Feyd Baron, DoC
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
I didn't live through that much of the past century, but my grandparents did. They had childhood diseases nobody gets now. They went bankrupt and mortgaged the farm, and went to Florida to work in the orange-packing industry. Admittedly they had a house, but their lives weren't easy. And it wasn't just them.
I like the idea of people's lives being even easier, but . . . I'm glad I didn't live in the good old days.
Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: Getting anywhere in terms of saving up for retirement or a home or their kid's college education. Getting anywhere in terms of improving their situation... Also the childcare thing. And in this case, it's really not about me who is happy living in my own apartment and not with parents or relatives. At least people, ideally, should be able to get... some sort of stability in their situation with their jobs and families as it really does work better for society.
That is where planning comes in. Before you (not you in particular, but any person) have kids, you need to plan out how you are going to pay for them. If you don't have enough money to raise kids while also saving money...it is not yet time to have them. Childcare is expensive, yet it can be planned for. Sure, sometimes the unplanned happens, a layoff, and injury, or something of that nature. But most things can be planned for. You should always work on developing your skills, so that if something like a layoff happens, you can find other work. If I were to loose my job, I would be upset...since I like the company I work for, and think I have a good future with them...but I know I have other options (some better than others).
If a person wants to improve their situation, they need to work in productive ways. Showing up and punching the timeclock isn't enough. You need to show motivation. Also, if a company offers training, or tuition reimbersment...you need to take advantage of it. That is how you improve on a situation.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kwea:
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: About the GI Bill, it's still in force as far as I know. All you have to do is join up, and go to Iraq to be shot at.
KoM, it isn't quite that clear cut, actually. A lot of people HAVE the GI Bill (or the VA Loan program, which was what she was really talking about) but it isn't enough to buy a house these days, at least not in a lot of markets.
I'm pretty sure she was referring to the GI Bill that allowed GI's to serve their country and then go to college on Uncle Sam's dime. Which my father did. During the Vietnam years. He went to USC's film school and never served a single year in Vietnam because he opted to serve his overseas duty in Alaska. After Vietnam was over, he served a year in Thailand. The only shooting he did was with a camera.
I'm sure it's different today, but I'm convinced that if he had to do it today, he'd still figure out a way to go to college on someone else's check and make everything work out so he could do something he enjoyed. That's just the way he is. The opportunities are different, it's not that they don't exist. Today, he's a self employed long haul truck driver for FedEx Critical Care, which suits him great. He still gets to travel, the work isn't very hard and he can pick and choose his jobs.
You know Syn, you could work toward getting a CDL and sign on as a truck driver. You can even take your rabbit with you. Then there's no need for rent, just a postoffice box. You don't generally have to get along with anyone else, since most drivers aren't part of a team. And in your down hours, you could write. Just a thought.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
The truck driver thing's not a bad idea, actually. Many firms are so short they'll even train you for a relatively minimal commitment, though if you could get training on your own that would be better.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
First I got to learn how to drive... And do something about this falling asleep thing. I don't think I'll ever be able to drive a car with this falling asleep problem I have.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Part of success is viewing problems as opportunities. I know that's a cliche, but it is because it's true. People who get stumped at every problem, who don't see them as one more brick in the road but as the reason they can't succeed have defeated themselves. That doesn't mean that the problems aren't genuine or real. It means that a realistic yet positive outlook on the future is critical to success.
Posted by Rich Lewis (Member # 9192) on :
There's also the idea that to get your dream out of American society, one has to do something for society.
You have to work hard, you have to try to find some kind of marketable skill, you have to attain some of the basic skills of modern life (basic computer use, interpersonal skills, driving an automobile), and you have to be willing to happily start from the bottom.
A friend of mine in his ninth year of college once said, "After all of this study and looking at careers are out there, I've decided I want to be a millionaire. The problem is they aren't hiring."
Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
Apparently the link I posted about the GI Bill was totally not needed. That is since everyone keeps making their assumptions about it.
The first year that a Military member is in there is a 100 dollar deduction taken out for the GI Bill. After that you can add some more to it, but it is the member's choice. It is not all someone else's dime.
Heck I don't know WHY I should know any of this except for the fact that I freaking get it when I get out. Heck, I can even use it while I'm in. I don't know why (I do, but since I'm already using sarcasm). As I am in still I can get Tuition Assistance, which is now up to 100%. However, that is beyond the scope of this topic.
[ March 06, 2006, 10:56 PM: Message edited by: Stan the man ]
Posted by Rich Lewis (Member # 9192) on :
The older I get, I realize more and more that the world owes me less and I owe it more.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I'm thinking symbiosis... Balance of nature give and take and give again and all that.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Dead? Hardly.
I grew up in a lower-middle-class family that spent like an upper-middle-class family, and thus had trouble buying food at the end of every month. But I'm smart and hard-working, and did well in high school, so I got accepted to an ivy league school with a need-based assistance package that meant we only had to pay my living expenses out-of-pocket, with the rest covered by scholarships and massive student loans, which I will be paying off for the rest of my life.
I decided early on that my college didn't have much to offer me as far as academics went, we just weren't a good match, but I'm a strong-willed and motivated person, and made good use of the time anyhow. I worked a wide variety of easily-obtained student jobs, and took a wide variety of classes, and by the end of the four years I had two things: enough work experience in a variety of fields to have no trouble putting food on the table, and more importantly, I knew what it was that I did want to do with my life.
So I got myself one of those silly jobs that put food on the table, and started figuring out what I needed to do to achieve my real career goals. And in the meantime got married, bought a house, bought a car, got a dog, and started paying off those massive student loans.
Now I'm in school again studying towards my dream career, and it's looking like I may actually achieve it some day. If not, I'm sure as heck enjoying the journey, anyhow, and I can always go back to working some office job if I need to.
Having success handed to you on a silver platter is not the American Dream. Reaching success by deciding what you want, working hard to get it, and not letting anything stand in your way, that's the American Dream. And it's alive and kicking. If anything, I think there are more opportunities than ever out there for Americans who know what they want and are willing to work hard to get it, because the rest of the country is off spending every waking hour zoning out in front of the TV or complaining about how no one's giving them what they deserve.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
And, of course, never getting sick or injured.
Posted by Artemisia Tridentata (Member # 8746) on :
The current version "Montgomery GI Bill" is different from the "cold war" edition. It does require an up front participation from the Service member. It is still a great way to pay for an education. If you chose to serve as a member of the National Guard, there are often state benefits that accrue and usually a tuition reduction for state schools. A six year comitment will allow a member to finish, and largely pay for, a baccalaureate degree at a state university.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
That's the thing. I'm not really talking about having everything handed to people on a silver platter. I'm talking about making things better, working together, symbiosis, some sort of balance between people working their fingers to the bones and getting help in the process like child care, health care, all of that stuff because they work and pay into the system. I really don't think that's unreasonable... And let's not even get started on a global level. What little I know about outsourcing (I'm not talking about the telemarketing jobs or the help center jobs being outsourced, though that bothers me a bit, at least these folks get reasonable wages, i'm talking about the people who are making 50 a month. That doesn't make any sort of sense. Just so someone else can benefit and not them.) bothers me and angers me. I'm not just thinking about my own struggles but how things can be improved across the board, because if this keeps up, hardworking people are just going to get worn out in this system and think, "enough already." and collapse. I wish people and the system would help each other more. Then society as a whole would be a lot better... There would be a balance between capitalism and the individual that has nothing to do with getting people 10 thousand dollar stereos and luxury cars, but the help they need to get by when they are just too tired to.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:i'm talking about the people who are making 50 a month. That doesn't make any sort of sense.
Except it does. Because they wouldn't be DOING that work if $50/month -- or the equivalent -- weren't worth it to them. In many cases, that's an average salary in the relevant countries.
Should American companies opt to be extra-generous with foreign labor?
Posted by Crotalus (Member # 7339) on :
I'll touch on a few things, some of which has already been commented on.
As for the youth of today wanting everything. Yep. Agree with that. All I have to do to see evidence of this is to break out the picture albums from when I was a little boy. The furnishings in my childhood home are so spare in those pictures. What happened was this: my parents accumulated their possessions over several years. Decades in fact. A lot of people start off expecting to have what their parents have, not realizing that their parents didn't get all that stuff overnight. But you know what? I never thought we were poor. And we weren't. A lot of people back then were living just like we were. In many ways it's all about perception.
The GI Bill. I'm a benefactor of it. I served in the U.S. Navy from '87 to '91. When I got out I went straight to college and spent every nickel of that GI Bill. Like KOM said, you can do this too if you are willing to go get shot at for a while. Really though, I know this isn't an option that everyone wants to take, and that's fine. I'm just saying that it worked for me. The end result was that I finished college a lot later than most of my high school peers, but that was my choice. My parents didn't have money to send me to school, I didn't want to take out a loan that I would have to pay back, and at the time I didn't know what I wanted to do anyway. So, I guess what I'm saying is that you can get a college education without being buried in debt, you just might have to explore a different route and take longer to graduate.
My next soapbox: A lot of Americans don't know how good they've got it. Go to a third world country for a while. Go to Manta, Ecuador and see the street children begging for pennies. See the squalor that a lot of the world still lives in. Wealth is relative. And relatively speaking, Americans are still the wealthiest people on the planet.
<Steps down from soapbox>
Some of this boils down to cost of living for the area that you're in. My advice to anyone willing to work hard to achieve the 'American Dream'; Move to a small town in the middle of nowhere. Find a job there that pays just a bit better than average and you can still have that white picket fence dream.
Last thing I'll say: It's okay to have possessions and want things. But, really, is this what we want our life goals to be? A white picket fence house can burn to the ground and be gone in an hour. My dream is to be a loving husband to my wife and to rear my children to be decent people. My dream is to impact those around me so that, when I leave, my legacy will be one of love. Don't get me wrong, I want my family to have a good roof over their heads, and I'm working hard to see that it continues to happen, but it's the intangible things that are more important.
Posted by SenojRetep (Member # 8614) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:i'm talking about the people who are making 50 a month. That doesn't make any sort of sense.
Except it does. Because they wouldn't be DOING that work if $50/month -- or the equivalent -- weren't worth it to them.
I think I agree with you in principle, Tom, but is there a place for worker protection beyond the joint-interest of the company and the employee? If the labor-supply is abundant (giving management little reason to care about individual workers), are societal/government restrictions on what kind of conditions workers may be subjected to appropriate/necessary? I'm thinking of minimum wage laws, child labor laws, OSHA, etc.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Maybe if slave labour wasn't involved. Perhaps if the companies were not just looking for cheap labour to cut down on their own cost at the expense of American workers. Perhaps if there was a minimum wage because I don't think that 50 a month is enough money even in a third world country, especially when I read how some of these companies will make their workers stay in dorms and charge them a ton of money for room and board.
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
If the American dream is, say, a house with a floatable mortgage and other debts at payable levels, with enough left over to save for retirement and the education of your 1.5 children... I have to say, to a degree, that achieving the American dream involves a significant element of luck.
You can work very hard at a lot of jobs and not be able to afford first and last month's rent plus deposit at a decent apartment, never mind a house.
You can be a tireless and efficient worker and still get cut out in a mass layoff.
You can struggle to get 'A's at a lousy school on an empty stomach and still not be able to find enough scholarships to get an education at the local college.
You can never touch a credit card, and find your application for a needed car or home denied for insufficient debt history.
You can work very hard at a job and get a lousy job review because you think the job involves helping people, while your boss thinks it means going through customers as fast as possible, whether you actually help them or not.
People point to so-called "self-made millionares" without in most cases actually studying the backgrounds, the systems of support, the realities that made those people's lives possible. Saying anyone could do it if they really tried is like saying I could play basketball like Michael Jordan if I really tried. It's not true.
Hard work and determination will help, no question. But luck, or random chance, also plays a part. Who you know, being at the right place at the right time, meeting someone on a day when they were in a good mood and wanted to help rather than a bad day when they didn't. Who you were born. Luck.
Believe me, I speak as one of the lucky ones.
In the wake of World War II, there was a boom. The U.S. was one of the few major industrial centers that hadn't been severely damaged and depleted by the war. The effect of that boom has all but faded. Why does it seem harder to achieve that long-ago conceived dream than it once was? Because it is.
Posted by Rich Lewis (Member # 9192) on :
Should any dream be easy to accomplish?
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
No. But the obvious counter-question is: should what used to be considered a reasonable middle class lifestyle be so distant to so many people that it might be considered a dream?
Posted by Rich Lewis (Member # 9192) on :
It all comes back down to this: work. There's nothing easy about maintaining a middle class lifestyle. And I don't believe it ever has been.
We've grown up thinking that Mike Brady started off as a successful architect on day one and could afford six kids, a stay at home wife and a maid (not to mention Oliver...). Or that on Dawson's Creek the teen's parents just kinda had these nebulous jobs that paid for the big houses.
Really, it takes going out there and giving one's utmost, no matter how tedious or seemingly demeaning a job might be. It means putting in the best 40 hours a week you can, or more, at a job. Then you've got to add in some more work in managing your money.
If you want to go beyond the basic middle class income, it really takes busting your butt to do it. Get to work early, make and work new contacts, reaching, grabbing and pulling yourself up to the next rung of the ladder.
Sweat, it's still the number one ingredient in success.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:A white picket fence house can burn to the ground and be gone in an hour. My dream is to be a loving husband to my wife and to rear my children to be decent people.
Well, if it comes right to it, your children can be hit by a truck and be gone in three seconds. And they can't be insured for what they're actually worth, either, unlike a house. I don't think permanence is a good measure for a dream.
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
Well KoM, that could be because you don't believe that the family relationship is permanent or even believe in a soul. However, if you believe that the kind of person that we develop into (and how help others develop as well) is the one thing that is permanent, then it might be easier to see where that comment is coming from.
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rich Lewis: Sweat, it's still the number one ingredient in success.
And I maintain that luck is also very important.
I made more than three times as much money working at a job that actually took maybe half of my eight hour days to do well as I did making close to minimum wage, working very hard, at an electronics store where the manager was having an ulcer trying to keep up with the unreasonable demands of his boss.
You can sweat all your life and still die a pauper with no paricular hope that your offspring will get a better chance. Many do.
Where the "American Dream" gets kicked in the teeth is the recognition that sometimes hard work and perserverance really pays- your employer.
I don't mean to malign the importance of hard work and perserverance. They remain important and commendable qualities. But no one should feel free to denigrate those who haven't "made it" on the assumption that they just haven't worked hard enough, and no one should assume by default that the wealthy all worked oh-so-hard to make it to where they are. As Gershwin said, "It ain't necessarily so."
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
So true, Sterling. Those are the points I am trying to get across.
Really, people need to work together. I don't think this individual nuclear family trying to make it to middle class model really works without community.
Is it so bad that I don't want to climb the ladder? I just want to... thrive. Do well, make enough money to live off and then have the stability to do the thing I really want to do.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Sterling, I wouldn't call it luck. I'd call it making some smart decisions that lead to greater opportunities. And persistence to endure through the hard parts.
I will never say that I work as hard physically as a kid at McDonalds. My brain works harder, though. You seem to be, and I could be mistaken so forgive me if I am, assuming that work is only hard if you physically sweat or are in some pain. I don't make the same assumption. Making a fair amount of money isn't difficult -- becoming a millionaire isn't even very difficult. Supply a needed service that you are uniquely qualified to do and the money will come, sometimes in very unexpected ways. Add time, persistence and consistency, and you'd have to hit outright bad luck to not succeed.
It's like investing. If you began investing $100 a year when you're 16 in conservative, reputable long term funds, and gradually increase your investing as you get older, not huge amounts, just a little at a time, consistently, diversely, persistently building up your assets, you will become a millionaire within your lifetime. That's not luck. You'd actually have to hit very bad luck for that formula to lead to ruin.
By the same token, I have never seen anyone who worked with consistent reasonable effectiveness over a long period of time truly lose out. Yes, you can get laid off -- I have, several times -- but when you gain a fully earned reputation for being a good employee, you will find another job, usually through contacts in the same industry. I watched 95% (yes, 95%) of my coworkers get laid off over the past 6 years. The ones who had the hardest time finding employment were the same ones who really weren't all that great when they worked for us. The smart workers, the ones who produced consistently and got along with their bosses and generally made the company environment better, all of them were reemployed pretty quickly. This was following the tech bubble bursting, when jobs were harder to find.
Is this a 100% guaranteed formula? No way. But like investing, you have to have outright bad luck for it not to succeed at least at a reasonably middle-class level.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
The "American Dream" has become harder to acieve because the definition has changed.
People look back on the 50's and wonder why they could get by with one income and we in these days cannot. Well, lets look at what the average home with children in the fifties had, and compare it to what the average family has today. These are, of course, my best guesses.
The 1950s: One black and white TV with bunny ears. Perhaps one radio / record player. One car, probably used. Shared bedrooms for the children, minimum 2 in a room. One rotary phone. Each kid has a bicycle.
The 2000s: At least two nice TVs, more likely three. Basic extended cable minimum. Perhaps even digital or satellite. Usually a DVD player, with several DVDs (15-25 bucks a pop). At least one nice stereo, with CD players for the kids. Most likely portable CD players (or MP3 players) for each kid as well. Probably dozens of CDs (12-22 dollars a piece). Probably one or two video gaming consoles, with at least a dozen games (at 40-50 bucks each). Probably one hand-held video gaming device as well (games 30 bucks each). Two cars minimum, with each teen most likely getting a car at age 16-18. Insurance on every car. Maintenance on every car. Cell phones for every member of the family. Minimum one computer, more likely two or three. High speed cable (or DSL) is now considered a basic need. Digital camera's are now the norm. It seems now that each kid getting their own room by age 10-12 is very common. Each kid still has a bicycle, but now they are way more expensive (10-speeds and the like).
In addition, we now buy nicer clothes, eat out more, buy bigger houses, more expensive cars... You name it. The list could go on and on.
The folks back in 1950 didn't make more money, they SPENT less money. If someone were to limit themselves and their family to living with a 50's standard of living, they could do so on a single income.
Would it be easy? Of course not. But was it ever easy?
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
Syn,
Perhaps in order to allow people to better answer your question, you could give us more to work with. By that I mean: *Define the American Dream *Since you assert it has died, tell us when this dream was alive While attempting to formulate a response to your question, I realized I couldn't because I lacked information. If you could do that, it would be great. Thanks
Edit: I'm not trying to be nitpicky or a pain or set some sort of logistical trap. I just find that discussion on a topic is greatly facilitated by having a working definition and scope.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
My idea of the American dream is, people being aboue to start their families, get a good decent job that matches their skills and pays them enough to support themselves and their families. What would be even better is- corporate and government support to realize this dream. People work to keep the system going, they pay their taxes, they buy products and supplies to keep the economy going, support and help to me seems reasonable. I do not mean having everything handed to people on a gold platter. I'm not talking about luxuries, just basic child care, health care, sick days for people to take off and take care of their children or themselves when they need to, maternity and paternity leave, mother's hours for women with children in school who still need to work, but be home for them when they get home from school. Perhaps I'm an idealist, or a borderline socialist, but I believe in a holistic approach to building a better society. Not just individuals looking out for themselves or companies that care more about Wallstreet than their consumers' health or their workers, but a whole system, governments, corporations, families and individuals devoted to making things better. That right there is my American dream. A better and stronger society, me as a better person contributing to that society. Hopefully as a writer... If I am good at that... I just am not fit for these super social sort of jobs.
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
I think, jeniwren, that our admittedly anecdotal experiences have lead us to different conclusions.
My wife is a doctor. No employer has asked her if she's able to lift thirty pounds over her head, or if four hour stretches on her feet are likely to be a problem. They don't have to; her job doesn't require it. Does she work hard? Yes. Because she spends long hours away from her family, is responsible for the health of her patients in a very direct way (and cares about that), and often has to make herself available in what are not, technically, "work hours", among other stresses.
She worked hard to get there: made it through college with loans and scholarships and workstudy, graduated with a double-major, made it into a decent medical school and through that school and residency.
Would she have been able to make it through without a supportive family? Teachers who helped her find those scholarships? A husband (to toot my own horn) who supported her financially and emotionally through the later years of medical school and residency?
No, labor does not have to be physically draining to be hard work, but I do think we undervalue and underpay those who do such work. I didn't work "harder" sitting in front of a computer than I did hauling five-gallon paint drums around. But I did get paid a heck of a lot better.
And not everyone has the good fortune to have a unique and desired talent. Some people are very good at doing repetitive tasks accurately and efficiently, but it's not a field where recognition of talent is a given.
And yes, reliable long-term mutual funds can pay off well, if you happen to have someone to advise you financially before that money goes directly hand-to-mouth. And without some kind of buffer, it can be very easy for one spell of bad luck- a car accident, an illness- to wipe out whatever money you might have imagined becoming your stake in your future.
I believe the term that was once popular was "there, but for the grace of God, go I?..."
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
The original American dream may have been the right to worship as one pleased. Perhaps for countless slaves, the American dream was freedom to simply live their own lives. For others it was the right to own land (and the opportunity to do so). People lost their lives for the freedom to choose our government leaders and be represented. All of these have historically been the American dream, yet we take them for granted now.
The American dream seems to have experienced a shift. Rather than basic human rights and needs, it has moved on to human wants, like wanting what our neighbors have. A family of 4, living at the federal poverty line, is still able to afford rent, food, cell phones, clothing, an automobile (or two), television and cable. Children are freely educated K-12 and then have an excellent opportunity through federal Pell Grants and need based scholarships do continue onwards. We have so much to be grateful for, and I think we rarely acknowledge that.
That being said, there's a lot more we could do as a compassionate society to help others less fortunate than ourselves. It would be nice if the new American Dream was "How much can I help my disadvanged fellow human beings (not how can the wealthy, the elite, or the government-- not them but me)" rather than "How can I get more for myself." However, the cynic in my recognizes this as hopelessly idealistic.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: My idea of the American dream is, people being aboue to start their families, get a good decent job that matches their skills and pays them enough to support themselves and their families. What would be even better is- corporate and government support to realize this dream. People work to keep the system going, they pay their taxes, they buy products and supplies to keep the economy going, support and help to me seems reasonable.
Isn't that what we've got now?
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
No, because it's slowly being eroded. America is gradually becoming a service economy, that is something to worry about. Pension plans are being scrapped and replaced with 401 ks which may not be as reliable. The government is even considering increasing interest rates on student loans and cutting funding for college students. It's insane. It will only get worse unless people DO something constructive about it, such as take some control over our government and our tax dollars.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I'm not entirely sure how those three things factor in to an apocalyptic end to the American Dream, Synesthesia.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:America is gradually becoming a service economy, that is something to worry about.
Why?
quote:Pension plans are being scrapped and replaced with 401 ks which may not be as reliable.
While it's true that pension plans are being scrapped and replaced with 401ks, why do you say the latter are less reliable? Pensions were drastically back-loaded, which meant that someone who had to change jobs early too often didn't have an adequate retirement.
quote:The government is even considering increasing interest rates on student loans and cutting funding for college students.
Why is it wrong to increase rates? Interest rates change over time. Rates fell drastically over the last 8 years. Should rates only be a ratchet, going down but never up?
Even the rate increases being proposed are lower than several historical highs.
quote:It will only get worse unless people DO something constructive about it, such as take some control over our government and our tax dollars.
I'm curious as to what opportunities you think used to be available that aren't any more? You've identified pensions and manufacturing jobs, but haven't made it clear why neither 401ks nor the large numbers of new white-collar jobs aren't adequate replacements.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
It is something to worry about because those service jobs mostly- Do not pay enough Have rather lousy working conditions. Highly stressful. And let's face it, how are people supposed to afford high morgages or expensive cars or Gap shirts on that sort of salary. Seriously, these guys by shipping high paying jobs overseas to save a few extra dollars are really not thinking about the future. How can people afford their products on 8 dollars an hour? How can we compete with the rest of the world if only a handful of people can afford college educations because the debt they incure after school is over is just too high for them to pay? Just looking at the INTEREST rates from my student loans makes me want to pass out. How are people who come from difficult circumstances (parents that didn't go to college or finish it, parents that don't have enough money to send their kids to college, working class families) supposed to afford to get an education so they can work their way up to these large numbers of white collar jobs and use their minds instead of rusting away not getting anywhere on less than 8 dollars an hour? If this keeps up, in the long run there might not even be a middle class to aspire to, only a wide gulf betwen the haves and have nots and when has that every done society any good? We need to make it easier for people who have the will and the intelligence to get ahead. I'm not talking about hand-outs, but a reasonable leg up.
And I think the minimum wage should be increased because not just teenagers bag groveries or check out food, but all sorts of people trying to support themselves and their families.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I'm not entirely sure how those three things factor in to an apocalyptic end to the American Dream, Synesthesia.
Because this is how it starts. It starts with companies that care more about making money NOW than they do about society. Same with individuals caring more about themselves and owning the latest gadget than the whole. It starts out with a simple decline, a weakening of the system and the next thing you know, it all collapses. This needs to be prevented.
Posted by jh (Member # 7727) on :
If a person really does want to go to college, then they will find a way. They will find jobs where they work 40 hours a week. They will take two classes at a time if they have to because they cannot take a full load of classes and work enough to earn the money to pay for it. I'm tired of people complaining that college is too expensive, when in reality they themselves are not willing to work hard enough for it.
You chose a career that you would enjoy but doesn't pay well. You know it wouldn't pay well, and you still chose it. Why are you complaining about it now? Or are you implying that it should pay well? That all jobs in every industry should pay an amount that allow people to live on it? Life doesn't work that way.
If your lifestyle is too expensive, then cut back on stuff. Get a roommate. Buy cheaper food. Try getting a second job instead of complaining about how unfair society is and how jobs are moving abroad, etc. Face it, we all live in the same society. If people can meet the challenges of living in this society, then obviously you can too.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:It is something to worry about because those service jobs mostly- Do not pay enough Have rather lousy working conditions. Highly stressful.
You are ignoring the much higher-skilled service jobs that now exist in almost entirely new industries.
quote:And let's face it, how are people supposed to afford high morgages or expensive cars or Gap shirts on that sort of salary.
They're not. High mortgages and expensive cars and Gap shirts aren't essential elements of the American dream.
quote:Seriously, these guys by shipping high paying jobs overseas to save a few extra dollars are really not thinking about the future. How can people afford their products on 8 dollars an hour?
A lot more people can afford the products when resources - including labor - are allocated efficiently.
quote:How can we compete with the rest of the world if only a handful of people can afford college educations because the debt they incure after school is over is just too high for them to pay?
It's true that if only a handful of people can afford college we will not compete well. You haven't come close to demonstrating this.
quote:Just looking at the INTEREST rates from my student loans makes me want to pass out.
Student loans could be consolidated at less than 5% for 20 years at several points over the last 10 years.
quote:If this keeps up, in the long run there might not even be a middle class to aspire to,
Again, you're just saying that this is the case. There's a huge middle class, and the middle class has more luxeries than the middle class of only a generation ago.
quote: only a wide gulf betwen the haves and have nots and when has that every done society any good? We need to make it easier for people who have the will and the intelligence to get ahead. I'm not talking about hand-outs, but a reasonable leg up.
What leg up do you suggest? I managed to start a business with no capital, based on two summers of working 80-110 hour weeks (yes, 110 out of 168). And the business was based on self-taught skills, not my college degree (although the degree helped in other ways).
A college loan is a leg up. State-subsidized college tuition is a leg up. Even at private colleges most students don't actually pay the cost of their education.
Community colleges are even better deals, and in many states associate degrees with a certain GPA guarantee acceptance into the state system for a bachelor's degree.
I'm grateful for all these legs up, and support efforts to make such legs up work better. It does take hard work to get ahead. And some people who work hard and make good financial decisions still get the financial shaft. But it is very possible to get ahead, and the opportunity is available to more than a few people.
The people I really feel bad about are those who have gotten through high school without the basic skills needed to take advantage of these legs up. Whether through the fault of themselves, society, or both, they really are at a lifetime disadvantage.
quote:It starts out with a simple decline, a weakening of the system and the next thing you know, it all collapses.
But you still haven't demonstrated that it's weakened.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I am not complaining specifically about me, as I am on my way up... or at least sideways. I'm thinking about the whole picture, not just me, but all of society and the best way to make it and this country great and then extend to the whole world. i'm idealistic, but we need idealists.
College IS too expensive. It's unreasonable. It's exhausting to work full time and go to school full time. Some folks get so tired they just burn out from the stress and frustration. Grants, reasonable loans and programs like this are better for the country in the long run. It allows smart people who normally wouldn't even think of going to college to be on an even playing field. Yes, I know life is tough. Of course it's tough. But why shouldn't the burden be lifted off of people just a bit? Just enough to keep them from getting discouraged? How is it fair that only a handful of people are allowed to get benefits and college coaching and all of these advantages from birth when a person who is just as smart, if not smarter gets denied this just for being born in the same place? To some, it seems childish, but I think this dog-eat dog concept has to die. This isn't what created progress. Working together, cooperation. That's what makes a society better. I'm a dreamer. But dreamers have a purpose too. I just think it's time for things to change and evolve for the better while at the same time acknowledging how far we have come and why.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: College IS too expensive. It's unreasonable.
I agree, actually, that it's unreasonable to expect the majority of your middle-class workforce to attend four years of college, and I think the country is worse off for having turned it into a form of expensive high school. But that's about where we part ways. For example....
quote:I think this dog-eat dog concept has to die. This isn't what created progress. Working together, cooperation. That's what makes a society better.
I agree that cooperation is what makes a society better. But I think people cooperate in the face of a dog-eat-dog world; a world in which people did not receive a benefit from cooperation would be a world without functional society.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I was being a bit sarcastic with that gap line. I just don't see the logic in eliminating a ton of jobs. Perhaps because I know very little about business and am looking at things from the perspective of an idealist with very slight socialistic leanings. From the other perspective, the one of businesses and companies and colleges, it could be entirelly different. It's hard to show it, but this is how it starts. Subtle, next thing you know the homelessness rate increases, more people end up on welfare and slip below the radar. It happens constantly. It's been happening for ages. As much needs to be done to prevent this from happening, but each time there are things like Americorps and the like they get scaled back and I am against it.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:College IS too expensive. It's unreasonable. It's exhausting to work full time and go to school full time.
But you don't have to do that - it's possible to go to college part time.
quote:But why shouldn't the burden be lifted off of people just a bit? Just enough to keep them from getting discouraged?
I think some of the burden and the discouragement comes from an unrealistic standard of living. Most people at my school have cell phones. Few people share bedrooms when living off campus now. Just 15 years ago most people had a roomate (not an apartment-mate) if they lived off campus. That change alone halved the cost of living. I paid 125 a month for my apartment in 1991-92, which even adjusting for inflation is less than half what most people pay now here.
quote:How is it fair that only a handful of people are allowed to get benefits and college coaching and all of these advantages from birth when a person who is just as smart, if not smarter gets denied this just for being born in the same place?
The choice isn't giving that to all or some. It's giving it to all or none. How would denying people the opportunity to either take advantage of their good fortune or to prioritize their expenses and make sacrifices to afford such programs for their children.
Also, it's not just a handful who have such things.
quote:Working together, cooperation. That's what makes a society better.
I agree. But I see the bad financial choices people make (not speaking of you here) as things that are anti-cooperation. Strictly comparing myself to people with the same basic education, starting income, etc. as I have, I am well ahead of most of them. Some of this was because of good fortune. But just as much or more was because of both hard work and better financial planning.
Most people I know cashed out their 401ks three or four times in their twenties when they changed jobs. I didn't. They had nicer cars, nicer houses, nicer apartments. I had money earning money for me. Their short term advantage has been overtaken in less than 10 years. I was able to buy a house and take advantage of the housing boom. They had to pay higher rent during that same boom because they didn't save.
I know there are people who haven't had 401ks to cash out. I'm not talking about them. Nor am I talking about you. But I've seen enough people work their tails off to get through college in 6 years without loans and enough other people who squandered their most powerful financial decade acquiring stuff, to know that people's choices generally matter. A lot.
[ March 10, 2006, 08:41 AM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
If you're reasonably intelligent and hard-working, you can go to college in the US. Period. Maybe it won't be your first choice or a flashy big-name school, and maybe you'll need to go part-time and work a job as you go, but there is way, way too much need-based assistance out there for people to be unable to go to SOME college simply because of the cost.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote: i'm idealistic, but we need idealists.
I disagree. Ideas do very little. People who act on their ideas do a great deal. You have identified several issues that concern you: child care, affordable life styles, the horrible standard of living in other countries, and many more. I'm curious what you personally do to improve these situations. Do you offer to take care for children when you're not working? Do you work with Habitat for Humanity to increase the affordability of a middle class life style? Do you donate to charities like Christian Children's Fund to help improve the standard of living in other countries? There are TONS of ways to help out, even if you have little or no money. If you want things to change don't wait for the government to change or anybody else. Go out there and create change.
[Edited to add: Here is a directory of some charities. There are plenty more than what's listed here, but this could help give you ideas. And don't feel like you have to give money. Almost all of these places could use volunteers.]
[ March 10, 2006, 12:01 AM: Message edited by: Amanecer ]
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: College IS too expensive. It's unreasonable. It's exhausting to work full time and go to school full time. Some folks get so tired they just burn out from the stress and frustration.
I worked part-time and went to school full-time, and with the help of some Pell grants, I was able to make it through. I got no money from my parents and very little from scholarships. And I graduated with only $4000 in student loans—a sum that could have been significantly smaller if I had managed my finances a little better and hadn't bought two cars. Putting yourself through college is not impossible.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: Few people share bedrooms when loving off campus now.
This is one of my favorite typos ever, Dag.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote: Few people share bedrooms when loving off campus now.
This is one of my favorite typos ever, Dag.
This is to acknowledge that yes, I made that typo. And, yes, it's pretty darn funny.
But I'm going to edit the original now, anyway.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Ideas help ebcause they create the conditions for change... The worse part is I have to take care of myself first and rise myself up before I can help people more. A friend of mine hammered this into my head saying, "It's not your fault that poverty exists." But I want to DO more... a lot more to change those conditions and I hate not being in that position yet... I wish I wasn't so social phobic and could take a job as a social worker or something... And I need to do more volunteer work too.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
What you are saying is not the death of the American Dream. Rather, it's just confirming that sacrifices are required to achieve any dream, American or not. Working hard will not by itself get you EVERYTHING (big house, family, job you enjoy, lots of free time, all the stuff you are used to, financial security, etc.) Instead it will only get you some of these. Which you choose is up to you and how well you plan.
quote:The worse part is I have to take care of myself first and rise myself up before I can help people more. A friend of mine hammered this into my head saying, "It's not your fault that poverty exists." But I want to DO more... a lot more to change those conditions and I hate not being in that position yet...
This isn't true. It's easily possible to both take care of yourself and help others simultaneously. Even if your job is bagging orders at McDonalds, doing it with a smile, helping your other employees, etc. will make a difference for others. It won't cure poverty, but I can guarantee you won't cure poverty no matter how successful you are.
In fact, typically helping others will make you a better employee, which will in turn help you too.
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
What are you doing to raise yourself up? You have a degree. That proves that you can work hard and succeed at something, which is a valuable thing on a resume no matter what you ended up majoring in. I'm majoring in Theatre, for crying out loud. If I had to I could still go into corporate communications because I have a degree and writing skills, most importantly writing skills. You're an English major, right? Tons of people have gotten degrees in English and done things only remotely English-related with their lives. If you have to, gain some skills. The temp agency I worked for had online classes for things to improve basic data-entry and other skills -- ask your agency if they have anything similar. Get in touch with a local ESL program and see if you can learn Spanish. It doesn't always have to cost money, but you can try to scrape enough together for one or two skill-building classes at a local community college -- programming, public speaking, bookkeeping, medical transcription -- you'd be surprised what is available if you look for it.
Getting out there and growing in knowledge -- *that* is the American dream.
[ March 10, 2006, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: sarcasticmuppet ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Well, in all fairness, I think it's safe to say that "growing in knowledge" has never been the American Dream, but probably should be. Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I still want to master Japanese... Maybe if I had a Japanese boyfriend.. *eyes some certain guy* That aside, I am trying to get over this stupid social phobia. It's such a pain in the butt. I can't believe I got to get stuck with this thing, being scared out of my brains of people all the time. It's why I was stuck working at s and s for so long... At the stupormarket (which uses low lights and dull music to hynotise people into buying a bunch of stuff they didn't put on their list) Because I was scared of offices and office people. but then I got a rabbit, started working temp jobs to gain more skills to get a permanent job and learned that offices are not so bad at all... Nothing to be scared of and the extra money sure is nice...
Posted by solo (Member # 3148) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:i'm talking about the people who are making 50 a month. That doesn't make any sort of sense.
Except it does. Because they wouldn't be DOING that work if $50/month -- or the equivalent -- weren't worth it to them. In many cases, that's an average salary in the relevant countries.
Should American companies opt to be extra-generous with foreign labor?
My answer to that is yes they should. Those who have abundance should support those who do not. Especially when those who do not are working to improve their situation. It isn't like the foreign factory workers are just looking for a handout. They are working and providing a service that makes their employers rich. They should be rewarded for that. There is plenty of room in the profit margin of most of those products (my wife has worked in retail and the average markup on clothing was in the 200-300% range) to pay a higher wage.
As far as the American Dream being attainable, I am Canadian and I feel I have attained the equivalent. I am 28 and have owned a home for nearly 3 years. I have two children and my wife has been a stay at home mother for most of the last 5 years. We have made sacrifices in our standard of living to get here. We have one small car with no options, one computer, one TV (no cable), and we just got our first cell phone a few months ago. As we have sacrificed some luxuries we have learned how to save money. We have been able to take a tropical vacation, we have a good sized collection of DVDs and CDs (though most of the CDs were bought by me before our wedding).
It really does boil down to defining what are actually needs. This can be really hard to do as there is so much pressure from the media. Not only the media but also those around us who make all of the extravagent purchases (whether they can truly afford them or not). I struggle with the fact that people who I know are less financially secure than I am are out there buying things that I would really like to have. I just can't justify putting those kinds of purchases (in my case, mostly electronics and musical instruments) ahead of getting out of debt.
The simplest advice I have is to live within your means. Don't go into debt for anything other than education, a home, and one reliable vehicle (and that only if public transportation is really not an option).
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
quote:You chose a career that you would enjoy but doesn't pay well. You know it wouldn't pay well, and you still chose it. Why are you complaining about it now? Or are you implying that it should pay well? That all jobs in every industry should pay an amount that allow people to live on it? Life doesn't work that way.
All right, can we put a stop to this particular argument now? It doesn't fly. On the website of a science fiction author, it particularly shouldn't fly.
Not everyone has the desire, interest, and talent to be an MBA, and following this line of reasoning would result in a glut of business majors, most of them miserable people who would hate their work. Anyone familiar with Kant's categorical imperative?
The last MBA I met was working for a service wage in a toy store.
If you take up something you hate just because it will supposedly be more practical somewhere up the line, the result is inefficiency and burnout.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
And, did I mention, never get seriously sick or injured? Or have a spouse or kids that do.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Very true... Or you could be social phobic like me and just no good at smoozing and all the stuff you need to do if you are a CEO or whatever... I'm just not good at that stuff!
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:All right, can we put a stop to this particular argument now? It doesn't fly. On the website of a science fiction author, it particularly shouldn't fly.
This is the perfect place for it to fly. Because almost all successful writers ("successful" refering only to if they can make a living at it, even though I know there are other measures of success) had to make serious sacrifices before getting to the point where writing alone paid the bills.
quote:If you take up something you hate just because it will supposedly be more practical somewhere up the line, the result is inefficiency and burnout.
I haven't seen anyone advocate taking up something you hate.
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
I used to think of myself as pretty shy -- I'd much rather be in a corner with a book than in the middle of things. I changed a lot after taking, of all things, an acting class. It made me much more self- confident and self-aware and more willing to put myself out there and deal with other people. When I learned about stage management they told me that if I wasn't completely self-assured and confident in what I was doing, than I needed to *act* like it. So I do -- I have to facilitate conversation between department heads, teachers, students, professionals, designers, actors, etc...the thought that I'd be doing this now might have given a younger me a stroke, but I absolutely love what I'm doing.
You can't live in a bubble forever -- people will always be there. It's hard and frustrating and you probably won't like it for quite a while, but when it clicks, it'll be a huge triumph. You'll walk and talk differently, and people will notice the positive change in you. But you have to make that move.
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
. However, in the long run it pays off. GI Bill. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Except for the fact that I think 10 bucks is a bit pricey. I go through shirts quickly, so I have to buy the cheap 5 dollar shirts. That or I should stop fixing my own truck.![[Grumble]](graemlins/grumble.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
And I have a house - with a hefty mortgage, and I couldn't have done it without my husband. ![[Blushing]](graemlins/blushing.gif)