My son-in-law loaned me this series. I'd never read anything by Tad Williams, and while these books are very dense I'm thoroughly enjoying them. I'm halfway through Book 3 (there are 4, about 750 pages each.) I can't recall having seen any reference to the series on Hatrack (although that doesn't necessarily mean anything). Anybody else read/reading them? Any thoughts?
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
I am almost done with book four. I think they're interesting and the characters are very, very well written, but some of the "worlds" really *drag*.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I'm a huge Tad Williams fan, and I thought Otherland was simply wonderful.
Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
Tom, I can't help comparing them to the Dark Tower as I read them (mainly because each series seem to be making an attempt to be the world's longest novel), so I'm hoping it doesn't fall apart in the last book, as I know you feel Tower did, and to a lesser degree I felt as well. The characters are fascinating, I haven't come across any easy outs in the plotlines so far, and the writing is excellent. The only slight niggling thing I've found is that Williams has so many different characters involved in cliffhanger situations that he can take forever to get back to them, and so the suspense isn't as well maintained as it could be. But that's a small quibble. Anyone got any other Tad Williams recommendations?
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
I've tried reading it and, I don't know, I've made other comments recently about how much I dislike hacking/cracking stories and Otherland is rife with them. I'm sure it's great, but I'm just having a hard time with it.
I'm surprised that Tom didn't mention his love for Memory, Sorrow, Thorn which is one of the best fantasy series I've ever read and is also by Tad Williams. It was on Tom's recommendation that I read them and I couldn't put them down.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Otherland is probably one of the best series I've ever read. I'd also recommend Tailchaser's Song, Shadowmarch, and Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn. I was sort of disappointed with War of the Flowers, to be honest.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
<scraches chin>
Tom and Jon liked Otherland. These are both good sources. . . I should probably give it another shot.
After I finish The Book of the New Sun, though.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
The exposition was a little clumsy in parts, but on the whole I loved the series. I don't recommend it as often as I do A Song of Ice and Fire, but it's a close second.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
I should add, however, that it took me a while to get into the first book. It's pretty dense and gets off to a fairly slow start. But once things started moving, I tore through the rest of it and the rest of the series.
Seriously, Otherland is one of the best examples of an author juggling a large number of plot threads and characters and doing it well. Robert Jordan could learn a thing or two from Tad Williams.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
I really enjoyed the series, but I to thought some of the worlds dragged on a bit and there were too many of them described. Towards the end, I thought Williams was trying to show us just how many different worlds he could come up with.
Posted by Silent E (Member # 8840) on :
I have never anticipated new books in a series as I did the books in Otherland, and that includes George R. R. Martin. Otherland is my second-favorite series ever, behind LOTR, and the older I get the more I suspect that my love for LOTR is overblown by nostalgia. So it's entirely possible that Otherland is my favorite.
I am not without criticisms of the series, however. In fact, I wrote one of only three fan letters I have ever written to Williams, and (after gushing a little) I brought up some of my reservations. The character of Renie was pretty annoying to me sometimes. I got really tired of all the blowups at other characters, and then ever more tired at hearing the same old apology repeated over and over again.
I absolutely loved some of the virtual worlds. My favorite was the House (was that what it was called?), where the entire world was made up of a single structure, which for all practical purposes had no "outside".
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
I did not like Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn, and have no real intention of reading anything else by Tad Williams, ever.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
What made you dislike it, ElJay?
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Initially I had no empathy for the main character, and did not care what happened to him. I almost quit the series about 100 pages into the first book, but a friend talked me into continuing. By the end of the first book I was kinda interested, but not very. I kept reading, and found the second book mildly enjoyable, but not really worth the time commitment. I hated the ending of the series. I thought it was a complete cop-out. I can't remember the details of why, and wouldn't put them in a non-spoiler-warning thread, anyway, but my reaction was basically "I wasted all that time for this?"
I never felt passionately about any of the characters. I don't care if it's passionately like or passionately dislike, I want to care about the people in the story. They are huge books, and if I'm going to invest that much time in something (and I read fast) I don't want to have to work to give a rat's ass.
In short, I felt like the main character was stupid, the major plot-points were predictable, and the ending sucked. How's that for a ringing endorsement? I know other people liked it a lot, so I just figure Williams' style and I don't get along, and since all of his other books that I've seen are also massive, I'm not going to take a risk on them.
I did think some of his filler detail was pretty. That's about the most positive thing I can say about it.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
Okay, so since you don't like it, can you name a series you do like? I'm curious.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I've tried to get into Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn a good half a dozen times, and have yet to get past the first few chapters. I'll be retrying it, based in great part on Tom's endorsement of it, but it's not high on my list.
Otherland, on the other hand, is fairly high on my list of series to reread in the near future. Unless you found Williams actively offensive, ElJay, I'd recommend at least giving the first Otherland book a try at some point.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Towards the end, I thought Williams was trying to show us just how many different worlds he could come up with.
He was. He freely admits that. *grin*
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
I lovedA Song of Ice and Fire. I like just about everything by Heinlen and Asimov, LOTR, Hitchhiker's, (although I like the Dirk Gently books better,) and Robert Asprin's Myth books. I also like David Edding's books, although I started reading them in early high school, and that's probably a good age for them. And the Homecoming series and the first several Alvin books by our host. The last two didn't hold me as well, but I would still enthusiastically recommend the series as a whole. And I really liked. . . um, Tamora Pierce's (?) first three young adult series, that Dana lent me a couple years back. Excellent writing, interesting ideas, great characters. Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by ElJay: I did not like Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn, and have no real intention of reading anything else by Tad Williams, ever.
ElJay, I also was underwhelmed by the MST series. It's one of the few things I was unable to finish, once started. (I know this pains Tom. )
However, some years back, I started a thread here entitled something like "Who wrote Otherland? No, really" because I just couldn't believe it was the same guy. Really amazing, and I loved it.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I'm just trying to imagine someone not liking Simon. *mind boggles*
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Eh. Jake and CT, huh? But I have a friend here who feels the same way about Otherland that I feel about MST, and the thing is once I start something I have a compulsion to finish it. It says a lot about how much I disliked that first book that I considered putting it down.
Mebbe if it's at the used bookstore sometime I'll sniff gingerly at it and look at the back cover or something.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
quote:Originally posted by ElJay: I lovedA Song of Ice and Fire. I like just about everything by Heinlen and Asimov, LOTR, Hitchhiker's, (although I like the Dirk Gently books better,) and Robert Asprin's Myth books. I also like David Edding's books, although I started reading them in early high school, and that's probably a good age for them. And the Homecoming series and the first several Alvin books by our host. The last two didn't hold me as well, but I would still enthusiastically recommend the series as a whole. And I really liked. . . um, Tamora Pierce's (?) first three young adult series, that Dana lent me a couple years back. Excellent writing, interesting ideas, great characters.
Interesting. I don't really like Heinlen. I find his characters to be either incredibly stupid or too brilliant and well-connected to be plausable. Sort of like the thinking man's Schwarzenegger.
Asimov I like despite his inability to write characters because I believe he is a mystery writer at heart and I cannot put down a good mystery. Seriously, though, if you look at his short stories and novels, they always play out more like mysteries than SF.
I'll have to check out Myth. Though I'm not getting much reading done these days. My interest at home is currently in Tom Baker's Dr. Who and I have zero time at work. I can barely read a couple of pages a day. It's driving me nuts.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Simon was a stupid, whiny little jerk. I can understand the need to leave room for character development, but he never developed.
The Myth books are really silly, Glynn, just FYI. They're full of puns and stupid jokes and you could probably read each one in one sitting.
I like Heinlen for his adventure stories, particularly the YA ones.
Added: Part of it is that I read and watch movies primarily for escapism purposes. If I don't want to be the main character and do what he/she is doing, I'm not terribly interested in reading it.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I think the big thing about Memory, Sorrow and Thorn is that the entire first book is about people living their lives normally. It's barely a fantasy novel until 400 pages in. There is, no kidding, three paragraphs on carrots.
And there's also a kidnapped prince, magic swords, dragonslaying, etc. But it's quite deliberately subverted so that all this stuff happens in the background. Even the princess willingly gives her virginity to the villain.
The entire series is practically a critical reaction to genre fantasy.
But I really can't imagine not caring about the characters. Far more than any other character in fantasy literature -- except possibly Taran -- I identified with Simon.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: The entire series is practically a critical reaction to genre fantasy.
I3 said something like that, too. When that's what I'm looking for in a book, I read non-fiction. Essays. When I read fiction, I read for the story. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I have no problem with fiction as a critical reaction to a genre, as long as the fiction stands up on its own. I think that Firefly is in part a critical reaction to the genre of TV and movie science fiction in general, and to Star Trek in particular. If that were all that it was it wouldn't be enough to sustain my interest in the show. Given that it's just one layer among many, though, I appreciate and enjoy that element along with the others.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
ElJay and CT, I'm with you 100% on not liking Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn. I did, in fact, stop reading about 50 pages from the end of the first book.
I started Otherland because I was bored and wanted something to read and because the cover art was pretty. It took a while to get into, but eventually I became entirely engrossed. I agree that Renie was not my favorite character, but there were so many others to love that it didn't stop me from loving the series as a whole. !Xabbu was delightful, Orlando was fun when he wasn't obsessed with death, and Dread was horrifying.
I agree that some of the worlds dragged on (insect world and kitchen world, anyone?), but the series as a whole was very satisfying. I loved the ending and the way the relationships developed.
So, ElJay, I think I'd give it another shot if I were you.
And yes, Simon is whiny and annoying. Ugh. I kept hoping that he'd grow up once he got out in the world, but he didn't. And there weren't any other characters that were distinct enough to latch onto instead of him.
Plus, I, unlike you, did not find Williams' descriptions pretty. I found them awkward and grasping at worst and way too plentiful (seriously, the man has an addiction to similes).
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
I found some of his descriptions pretty. Like you said, there were enough of them that "some" does not have to mean very much.
And Simon didn't grow up by the end of the last book, either.
Posted by Silent E (Member # 8840) on :
Dread is one of the best villains I have ever read.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
*grin* Simon grew up a LOT. He just didn't grow up in the way most fantasy conditions you to expect.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Hm. There have been times when I thought about giving Otherland a shot, but in this thread I see people recommending it and then raving about A Song of Ice and Fire. The latter left me feeling "meh" after A Game of Thrones, so should I perhaps leave this Tad Williams fellow alone as well?
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
Well, what series have you enjoyed, Twinky?
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I enjoyed tons of pulp fantasy as a teenager (Salvatore, Weis/Hickman, et cetera), but these days I haven't really been going in for series apart from Steven Brust's books and Guy Gavriel Kay's set of two (The Sarantine Mosaic). Kay's work in particular is a perennial favourite of mine. With Brust I like the Vlad Taltos books for a quick read and the Viscount of Adrilankha trilogy for a throwback to Alexandre Dumas.
Changing gears a bit, I've also enjoyed William Gibson's loose series, but like his books best when they stand alone. I like Neal Stephenson, but haven't read his Baroque Cycle. I've thought about it, but I'm not keen enough to take the plunge.
Straying a little further, I've read one Salman Rushdie book (The Ground Beneath Her Feet) and loved it.
Kay is the big one, leaving aside his first trilogy. I haven't found another fantasy author I like as much as him for meaty texts.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Hm. I hate Kay, so my recommendations would likely be valueless. Oddly, I love Brust and Stephenson.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Hey, twinky, do you happen to own a copy of Lord of Emperors that you wouldn't mind loaning out? It isn't available at either area bookstores or libraries. I've got Lions of Al-Rasson, and plan to read it after I finish what I'm reading now, but I'm impatient to return to The Sarantine Mosaic's storyline rather than just to its world.
By the way, I think that much of the reason that people are mentioning ASoIF and Otherland in the same voice is that they're both composed of freaking huge books. That's really about where the similarity between the two stops. I will say, though, that I see ASoIF as being the better series.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Hm. I hate Kay, so my recommendations would likely be valueless. Oddly, I love Brust and Stephenson.
Whereas I like Kay and hate Brust. Ha! I'll admit, though, that I haven't given Brust a try since high school, so maybe adult-me would like his stuff more than teen-me did.
What is it that you dislike about Kay, Tom?
Posted by solo (Member # 3148) on :
I loved Otherland. I took several months to read the first book (it was very slow to start) and then probably a week each for the remaining 3. I actually enjoyed each of the worlds and was a little disappointed that some of them didn't last longer. I also enjoyed the follow up story he wrote for the second Legends anthology. I won't say the title as it could be a spoiler for one of the Otherland characters.
I also really enjoyed A Game Of Thrones though I haven't really had a desire to read the rest of the series until it is finished. Robert Jordan kind of ruined reading an unfinished series for me.
I haven't read Memory, Sorrow, & Thorn yet but they are on my massive list of books I own but haven't read yet. I have just finished reading a tonne of Neil Gaiman (all of Sandman, Smoke and Mirrors, and some other short fiction) in the last couple of months and I am kind of burnt out on Fantasy for the moment so I am taking a break to read something different.
The book I am about to start is called A Complicated Kindness by Miriam Toews. It is one of the selections for Canada Reads this year. It is about a 16 year old Mennonite girl living in Manitoba and feeling stifled by the culture there. The panelist defending it is John K. Samson of The Weakerthans, one of my favorite bands.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Twinky, I couldn't get through the first Song of Ice and Fire book. So not all Williams fans are also Martin fans.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Tom, it appears there's no accounting for taste.
I can at least understand why people like ASoIaF, even if I don't find it as compelling as they do. You might catch me reading the rest of it if Marting ever finishes and I catch up on my reading queue.
Noemon, I do indeed have a copy of it. I'll get it to you. Also, thanks for answering a question I meant to ask explicitly -- that is, if you like both series because they're similar. Added: And thanks to Jon Boy too. Posted by Silent E (Member # 8840) on :
One of my favorite things about Otherland was the state of the net in the future. I thought a lot of the notes about current events and pop culture were too outlandish, but as for the net itself, I thought that the things people did were exactly the kinds of things people really would do if the VR technology were advanced enough.
Who wouldn't love to spend time in the Middle Country?
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
solo, I actually zipped through the first 3 books and stalled on the last. The final one seemed to drag to me.
Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
I could never really get into Tad Williams. I read a few books of his but just burned out. I started the first otherland book, but didn't finish it.
Though to be honest, It was at the same time that I was finishing up my Master's thesis, so my brain might have been sick of reading reasearch articles and that might have carried over to a lack of desire to get into fiction. Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
quote:Originally posted by Silent E: One of my favorite things about Otherland was the state of the net in the future. I thought a lot of the notes about current events and pop culture were too outlandish, but as for the net itself, I thought that the things people did were exactly the kinds of things people really would do if the VR technology were advanced enough.
That's funny. I see VR as an archaic concept from the early 90's that will never come to fruition because it is entirely rediculous.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
I'm also one who couldn't make it through MST. It took me a month and a half to get to like page 75, and thats just not normal (it took me 10 days to read the first three books in ASOIAF).
It sounds like the part that Tom enjoyed so much is what I hated. Three paragraphs on carrots?
From what little I read, Simon didn't seem very sympathetic at all. Boring, stupid, and a bit of a brat really.
But I still have all the books (Walden books was having a "buy 4 books get the 5th free" deal), and I still plan to try again some day.
So keep that in mind for my critique of Otherland.
Otherland was very much a mixed bag for me. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, but I'm not sorry that I read it. There were some interesting things, and at one point I was pretty engrossed in the story.
But at times I was also bored out of my skull (like the kitchen world!). And the ending seemed tacked on and forced, with very little connection to the, what, 2400 pages before it?
I feel like it would have been an excellent one shot novel. It almost seemed like Williams had a deal for four books, and a story which was better suited to one book.
My review in one word would be "meh".
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
Tom, I'd like to hear what you love about Simon. In what ways did you notice his growth? How do you identify with him?
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
I hated "Memory, etc." It was one of the few books I've never finished. Much like ElJay, I just plain didn't care about or like most of the characters.
However, I did really enjoy the "Otherworld" series. I'm not sure what the difference was for me - I'll have to think on that.
space opera
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Tom, I'd like to hear what you love about Simon. In what ways did you notice his growth? How do you identify with him?
Simon starts out as someone who's essentially decent, if a bit callow; he's a twelve-year-old kitchen boy, and acts like it (which may be something completely unprecedented in all of fantasy literature.) He dreams of heroics, but has no conception whatsoever of what heroics ARE.
And then events conspire to force him into rather desperate straits. He gets lost in the dark -- repeatedly -- and despairs, but keeps moving anyway. When confronted with moral choices, he makes the right ones but doesn't always understand why. He goes along and goes along and does what people tell him to do, and generally manages not to make too huge a mess of things.
But gradually he starts to take charge of his own life. He learns to use a sword by practicing with it. He learns to fish. Goes through puberty. Acquires patience. He woos a princess by, more than anything else, being stable. And the things he does to survive appear to other people to be heroic, but he himself almost never thinks of them that way -- and the narrative is told in such a way that we the reader are not encouraged to think of them as heroic. (In fact, the few times Simon does bask in his reputation or indulge his desire to play "hero," he actually comes off as being as silly and immature as you'd normally expect of a castle boy his age.)
The whole point of the character is that almost NOTHING he does is "heroic" from his point of view, but that his point of view is irrelevant.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
I started off enjoying Otherland but about the middle of the second book I realized that the plot wasn't really advancing and we were just popping into new places without any reason to it. Great for a TV series, but for a novel I want some arc. I just lost interest.
I love Kay. Tigana is a special favorite that I have reread more than once.
Posted by Silent E (Member # 8840) on :
kmbboots:"but for a novel I want some arc."
Oh, Otherland has arc. Boy, does it ever have arc. **The following, while not exactly a spoiler, is my attempt at a very generalized account of how the wandering chapters really do form part of an arc.**
The people who enter the Otherland system do so with the aim of stopping the Grail Brotherhood. As they spend more and more time in the system, it becomes increasingly obvious that they are almost powerless to achieve this end. However, their presence, and their interactions with the system and its other inhabitants, is nevertheless necessary to the ultimate unraveling of the Brotherhood's scheme, through in an indirect way.
In other words, although their wandering seem pointless, because they're not getting any closer to their goals, but just passing from one world to another, in the end it is shown that, almost inadvertently, they have "caused" exactly (or almost exactly) the result they originally intended.
Further, the wandering sections, making up most of the series, follow in a grand tradition going back many centuries. Based on the success of such narratives, it appears people actually like stories about people wandering around seeing stuff and meeting people.
[ January 30, 2006, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: Silent E ]
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Silent E, you might want to mark that with a spoiler warning. Not that it's a huge spoiler, but even so I'd rather not have read that before I started the series.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Don't cry for me, I appear to have already read it.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
I guess I just wasn't invested enough in the characters to wander (seemingly I guess) aimlessly. Perhaps there would have been a "payoff" if I had stuck with it. As I almost never fail to finish novels I was surprised that I just didn't feel like hanging in there with these.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I like just about everything by Heinlen and Asimov, LOTR, Hitchhiker's, (although I like the Dirk Gently books better,) and Robert Asprin's Myth books. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
I also like David Edding's books, although I started reading them in early high school, and that's probably a good age for them. And the Homecoming series and the first several Alvin books by our host. The last two didn't hold me as well, but I would still enthusiastically recommend the series as a whole. And I really liked. . . um, Tamora Pierce's (?) first three young adult series, that Dana lent me a couple years back. Excellent writing, interesting ideas, great characters. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Sleep]](graemlins/sleep.gif)