My son plays Star Wars at school. He likes being Darth Vader--the GOOD GUY.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Kids these days.
Posted by Raventhief (Member # 9002) on :
Well, he became the good guy again at the end, right? After killing all those little kids. And the other Jedi. And randomly strangling people. And aiding the blowing up of a planet. And cutting off his son's hand.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
If by "became the good guy" you mean "murdered his mentor who he had sworn to serve", then yes, he did become the good guy.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
I think Raventhief was talking about over the chronological course of all six movies.
Posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged (Member # 7476) on :
Also, let's not forget he tortured his own daughter, strangled his wife and Genmerally killed a whole bunch of people. Nice one act can make up for all of that.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:I think Raventhief was talking about over the chronological course of all six movies.
So was I. This is what happened at the end of Return of the Jedi.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Well...I mean...at the end of Return of the Jedi, he's a spirit guide of sorts. He has plenty of time to redeem himself. He's at least back on the right path at that point.
Anyway, I think we're missing the point, which is of course that Sasha is adorable!
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
MPH, I'm pretty sure the striking down of the mentor occurs at the end of A New Hope. He still has two more movies in which to get away from the Dark Side.
Edit: *facepalm* Of course, you're talking about the emporer. I had Obi-Wan in my head as mentor.
Still...I'd count that as a good action, seeing as how the emporer was one bad dude.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Exactly. He got to become a spirit guide by murdering his mentor who he swore to serve.
quote:He has plenty of time to redeem himself. He's at least back on the right path at that point.
Interesting. Are you saying that he got to be a spirit guide first and only after came back onto the right path? 'Cuz there was very little time between his murder of his mentor and his death.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:MPH, I'm pretty sure the striking down of the mentor occurs at the end of A New Hope. He still has two more movies in which to get away from the Dark Side.
*laugh* Wrong mentor. I'm talking about when he killed the Emperor, who had been his mentor and lord for the last 20+ years.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
No, no, I'm saying he got back onto the right path and thereafter became a spirit guide. I'm also saying that, as a spirit guide, he has oodles of time to make up for all the bad stuff he did while he was alive.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Still...I'd count that as a good action, seeing as how the emporer was one bad dude.
I know. I was halfway poking fun.
Although it does raise some interesting moral questions? At what point does someone become so evil that murdering them is now an act of good instead of evil.
I personally would say that Vader's actions come closer to being good because he was saving Luke from being killed by the Emperor.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Yup, it's true. In 10-15 years the prequels will be considered true classics by the people who grew up with them, and only old farts will think that the originals are better. When people say the name "Skywalker", they'll be thinking of Anakin not Luke, and when they say "Obi-wan" they'll be thinking of Ewan not Alec.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
I agree that it does raise some interesting moral questions--questions that I definitely encounter when considering my (wholly undecided) position on the death penalty.
I guess the question is whether we define his (anyone's?) actions as good either by their motivations or their results. The motivation was primarily to save Luke, but the result was that one very bad dude got eliminated, and also that Vader found good in himself. Thus, by either definition, he ends up being good.
Also, Sasha is adorable!
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Megan, I agree.
To really open up a can of worms about the Star Wars movies, here is an interesting take.
The Jedi are a stagnated religion, locked into dogma and blinded to the corruption in the systems they helped maintain.
What turns Anakin evil is as much the Jedi refusal to accept him, and the Jedi's blindness to the evil that grows within the Republic as it is the machinations of the Sith Emporer.
Too easilly the Jedi teachers and protectors become soldiers and generals.
The result is that they are destroyed by the troops they are leading. In a symbolic sense, the Jedi are destroyed be 1st becoming a dogmatic religion, and then by becoming a military power.
Luke redeems Anakin, not with violence or by out fighting him on any level. He redeems Anakin by surrendering the violence and basically if not actually turning the other cheek.
Its a nice Narnia-like Christian metaphor--though much more Protestant and Quaker than Catholic.
or then again, I need a life.
Sasha is Adorable.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I think that the morality in the Star Wars universe is a stunted morality that is very common in movies -- you aren't a good person because you do good things, but because you fight people who do bad things.
Posted by Lissande (Member # 350) on :
*points to what mph said* That, twice over. Disturbing, really, what passes for "good guy" in a lot of movies.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Its a nice Narnia-like Christian metaphor--though much more Protestant and Quaker than Catholic.
It's very Catholic. He returns the power he received from the Dark Side (the part where he starts kicking Vader's butt). Distrust of temporal power is a fairly common theme in Catholic literature. See Tolkien for numerous examples, especially Frodo at Mt. Doom and Gladriel.
I make no claim that this is uniquely Catholic or not Protestant or Quaker. But it's definitely a common Catholic theme.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Isn't fighting people who do bad things a good thing to do? Does that not fall under the heading of "doing good things"? Or must ALL a person's actions be good in order for them to be considered good?
Moreover, how do you define "good things" and "bad things"? Good actions and bad actions? Do you give more weight to motivation or result? Can a person do good inadvertently? Is that person still a good person, even if his motivations weren't necessarily good?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Isn't fighting people who do bad things a good thing to do? Does that not fall under the heading of "doing good things"? Or must ALL a person's actions be good in order for them to be considered good?
It certainly can be, but it isn't necessarily.
I give almost all weight to motivation and intended result. Unintended good consequences do not make an evil action good.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
But can it make a neutral action good?
And what happens if a well-intentioned action turns out to have evil consequences?
(This is all theoretical, mind you; I tend to weight intentions rather more heavily as well, but I'm enjoying quibbling and playing devil's advocate.)
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
I agree with mr-Porteiro_head.
It is easier to fight the devil than it is to live like Christ.
Especially if you can pick which devil you want to fight.
(This is what I see behind a lot of immature people taking up causes such as anti-homosexuality, anti-abortion, or anti-muslim campaigns.)
And its much, much easier to show in the movies.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
The problem is no one is perfect to begin with (except Jesus). I was pondering this a bit in whether to post in the theater closure thread.
One thing I thought was really interesting in the third Matrix movie was how he has to become Smith in order to defeat Smith. It actually goes along with the doctrine of an infinite atonement in the Book of Mormon. When I was younger I thought Jesus only atoned for people who were really not all that bad.
There was a shadow of a connection in First Contact but I think I've overdone the geek theology.
In the actual theology theology department, I would say that the only way we can be like Jesus is to say "Thy will, not mine be done."
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