Sad, sad news. Posted by smitty (Member # 8855) on :
That's terrible!
Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
That's horrible...
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
Part of me wonders if it was a hate crime against Mormons or if the man who shot them thought their suits and ties were the garb of an opposing gang.
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
Wait... there was a gang involved?
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
That's unknown at this point, Myr. Brinestone's just speculating. And those certainly aren't the only two options. The shooter could have been high on something, or it could have been an attempted robbery that went bad, for example. Or he could have been mentally unbalanced. Hopefully the missionary who's still alive will be able to help the police figure out what happened and why.
Posted by Black Mage (Member # 5800) on :
No idea. It could have been just another violent crime that by chance fell on two missionaries.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
And there's no indication from the article that the shooter knew they were missionaries. Two men in suits at the very least would imply a couple of cell phones and two wallets with at least a little cash. I'm betting robbery that went bad when the missionaries didn't have anything of value to give the robber.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Well, no doubt this guy will get his 72 virgins, yes?
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: Well, no doubt this guy will get his 72 virgins, yes?
...what?
-pH
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
Hey, KoM, it might be a good idea to try a little harder to not make comments like that. Of course, I can't imagine you giving your life for any type of belief whatsoever, so I guess it's okay.
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
Hey, Boris, it might be a good idea to not make rude comments while at the same time telling someone else not to.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
KoM's an attention whore. I wouldn't give him any.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
That was probably rude. I feel fine about it.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
This is so sad about the missionaries! How shocking! I really feel for his family -- I'm sure one never thinks about a missionary being violently attacked when they are serving within the U.S...
Farmgirl
(I have no idea what state "Chesapeake" is in - and have never heard of this WAVY-tv station, but I'm assuming it is in U.S.)
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Quite right, Boris; the idea is to make the other guy give his life for his beliefs. Are you volunteering, by any chance?
EDIT : And kat, that's attention escort, if you please. It's not as though I stand about on street corners telling people about my beliefs. Assignations strictly by Internet only.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I would wonder what is missing in your life that you seek it so assiduously, but I don't actually care.
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan: Hey, Boris, it might be a good idea to not make rude comments while at the same time telling someone else not to.
Why not? It's fun Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Hey, this isn't about KoM. It's about a tragic death by violence. The death of someone who wasn't doing any harm. Most of us feel the need to show some respect. (I admit I'm a bit numb at the moment, but I did not intend to offend.)
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
quote:Originally posted by Boris:
quote:Originally posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan: Hey, Boris, it might be a good idea to not make rude comments while at the same time telling someone else not to.
Why not? It's fun
Well of course it's fun, but you lose the moral highground that way. Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
One of my high school friends went to Northern Ireland for his Mormon mission. I always teased him that he was insane to get himself in between the Catholics and Protestants, and I was so relieved when he returned safely.
quote:(I have no idea what state "Chesapeake" is in - and have never heard of this WAVY-tv station, but I'm assuming it is in U.S.)
It's in Virginia. There's a map of the area included in this article.
quote:Police described the shooter as a black male, about 5’10’’, wearing a black hooded sweatshirt and jeans. Anyone with information is asked to call the Crime Line at 1-888-LOCK-U-UP (562-5887).
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
<Removed. --PJ>
[ January 04, 2006, 12:07 AM: Message edited by: Papa Janitor ]
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
I feel sorry for the parents and those who loved him.
I don't believe in heaven.
Edit:That is, I don't think death is really so tragic for the dead person. We all do it eventually. What I was getting at is that it is bad taste to make jokes about someone's death.
Most of us have gotten to the point that your attitude in threads like this is a curiosity more than anything else.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
His poor family. It would so horrible to lose a child.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Wow.
What is wrong with you today KOM?
It's not as if people are just sad because Mormons were killed. These were young men at the prime of their life sacrificing their time to serve something greater than themselves. You don't have to be a Mormon to be saddened by this tragedy.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
<Removed. --PJ>
[ January 04, 2006, 12:08 AM: Message edited by: Papa Janitor ]
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: His poor family. It would so horrible to lose a child.
*seconds this*
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
No matter what one's views about heaven, it sucks when beloved people die.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Well, if that's the case, then all people of faith should be killed to hasten their ascent into heaven. Because it's not like they're trying to do good on earth, or anything.
The fact one is religious does not mean that he or she looks forward to dying.
-pH
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Plus, Mormons don't really hold with the traditional heaven/hell thing anyway, do they?
Not that it matters, or that anyone needs to know anything about a religion before they slam it.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH: Well, if that's the case, then all people of faith should be killed to hasten their ascent into heaven.
Well, yes, obviously. What's your point?
quote: Because it's not like they're trying to do good on earth, or anything.
But so was this killer! Obviously, all he wanted was for this missionary to get his just reward in heaven; in fact, he was even willing to sacrifice his own eternal reward to get it. Now there's real altruism! Imagine burning in hell for all eternity because you did someone a favour! Who knows, maybe he'll get the occasional sip of water?
Or to be a bit less facetious, if everyone died and went to heaven, then the lack of good deeds on earth would be utterly irrelevant. Kind of makes you wonder why your god doesn't hit us with a Great Big Comet, like with the dinosaurs, eh? Maybe heaven is full up with dinos already?
quote:The fact one is religious does not mean that he or she looks forward to dying.
Pain hurts, right. But then it's over, as OSC once pointed out in the context of being burned at the stake. However, I wasn't talking about the dead guy, but rather the reaction to his death. Why should you feel sad because someone goes to heaven?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
*shrug* Someone give KoM a shiny so he'll stop asking stupid questions.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Well, what was the thread going to be except a bunch of sad smileys and "that's terrible"s anyway? But if you don't feel like actually examining your beliefs and making sure they are consistent, that's fine by me.
Unfortunately I do have to be going now, I'm running late as is, so you can have the thread to yourselves for the next six or seven hours. Ta-ta.
EDIT : Ack, you edited that and now my response doesn't make sense anymore. The original was, IIRC, "Sadly, another thread ruined by KoM. Someone give him a hug so he can go away."
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
I think it is internally consistent to grieve when someone dies, if not for them, then for the ones who loved him.
That's a human thing, not a religion thing, which is why I don't understand why it irritates you so much.
Unless you're a bot. A Snark Bot. Hmmmm...
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I'll not get into the discussion but I will give me respects to the family of the departed even if they don't frequent Hatrack.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
This is so tragic.
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
KOM, I'm totally in agreement w/ what Olivet said above. However, to make it "a religion thing," here is Mormon doctrine on the matter, from Doctrine and Covenants 42:45-46:
"Thou shalt live together in love, insomuch that thou shalt weep for the loss of them that die, and more especially for those that have not hope of a glorious resurrection.
And it shall come to pass that those that die in me shall not taste of death, for it shall be sweet unto them."
(I haven't been here long, so I wouldn't be surprised if others have already posted the same thing to you and I'm just wasting my breath. But just wanted to make the case that just because our beliefs don't make sense to you doesn't mean they're unexamined. I mean, it's an obvious question that any believer is going to ask him/herself--if I believe, why do I grieve? Hmmm, seems like CS Lewis and many others have examined it in great detail . . .)
So, according to the scripture above, when we love one another we miss each other when we're gone, it's that simple. And no, I didn't know Elder Young personally, but how could I not be sad that the sweet young guy in that picture is gone? Not to mention that it is a tragedy for the killer, who will now have innocent blood on his hands; Christianity teaches that I should have compassion for him, as well.
And of course I know that there is a family that is grieving the loss of their son, friends who are in shock over someone gone so suddenly.
There is no moral inconsistency in grief simply because I believe in eternity. Mortality is real, and it's important. My code of beliefs dictates that life is sacred. There is a reason why people are commanded not to kill, and it is simply against nature to see a healthy young life ended like that. And yes, my beliefs also give me the hope that this kid's death was just a moment in time, and that he is in another, more joyful state now. Sorry, I'm still sad he's gone.
[ January 03, 2006, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: Uprooted ]
Posted by sarcare (Member # 8736) on :
(posted at the same time as Uprooted) Plus, it is sad and kind of scary to hear about things like this happening. My brother is on a mission in a similarly innocent seeming place--could something like this happen to him? Of course, it could happen to me or anyone.
When my sister was on a LDS mission, her mission was considered the most dangerous in the world, with 80% of missionaries robbed at gunpoint (according to the mission president), but nothing like this happened to her while she was there. As a family member of a missionary, stories like this make me personally scared for my family members, thankful that my family members are safe, and symphathy for those who havn't been as lucky as I.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
What a tragedy-as it is everytime someone is murdered, of course. I added that little note for you, KoM. Once again you prove that you're not actually interested in changing people's minds and helping them, but rather trumpeting your own particular brand of zealous ignorant posturing.
This seems a pretty obvious example of openly insulting someone else's religious beliefs. I realize you'll backpedal and dodge and writhe and squirm, but it's obvious. Hopefully the little whistle-icon will summon up something appropriate.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
My gosh. I met these elders.
This is horrible. My prayers will be with their loved ones.
Chesapeake is in Virginia, my home state. WAVY 10 is the local NBC affiliate.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I'm sorry to hear this. My gut instinct tells me it's not related to them being missionaries. It's the type of crime scene my husband visits on a regular basis, I guess I've heard about too many senseless shootings from him to be shocked anymore.
Not that it matters why they were killed, really in the long run. Their families will be in pain, and will miss their loved onesand it's a very tragic event. I hope the one who was injured recovers from his physical wounds, I'm sure the emotional healing will take much longer.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I grew up in Va. Beach and Portsmouth. If I recall correctly, Deep Creek was a pretty rough area. I grieve for their family and friends.
quote:No, in fact you would almost have to be a non-Mormon. Or, I don't know, maybe not quite really believe in the doctrine of heaven after all.
There is NOTHING inconsistent about mourning death while believing in eternal life. Living until 70 decreases the amount of time or the glorious experience spent in eternal life by not one whit, but the experiences between 21 and 70 that would have happened are lost irretrievably.
But you're smart enough to know that, KoM.
Posted by enochville (Member # 8815) on :
Two comments for KoM: Mormons don't believe that common murderers spend forever in Hell. After they suffer a while for their sins, they inherit a kingdom of glory, but that glory is not nearly as bright as those who do not murder.
And as far as the children in Darfur go, it is awful what is happening there. Mormons believe that anyone who would have received the gospel had they had an opportunity to hear it in this life will receive all the blessings associated with receiving it in the hereafter.
Posted by Chreese Sroup (Member # 8248) on :
KoM I hope we never meet, or I'll send you to a special place in hell.
Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
OK, so I'm just not going to read what else was typed in this (since half of it is a pissing fit). Chesapeake...hmmm. Yep lived there. Not suprised. Doesn't have to be either gang or hate related over there. If they were on the proverbial "wrong side of the tracks", then yes it can happen all to often unfortunately. I pray that their families can cope with this. Losing loved ones is very hard as it is. Especially when it is the more less goal of most (hopefully all) parents to die BEFORE their children do.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: There is NOTHING inconsistent about mourning death while believing in eternal life. Living until 70 decreases the amount of time or the glorious experience spent in eternal life by not one whit, but the experiences between 21 and 70 that would have happened are lost irretrievably.
But you're smart enough to know that, KoM.
Well, that's a moderately coherent argument; but still, I think you would have to agree that a death is a much worse thing in an atheist universe than in a theistic one. (Unless, of course, the god in question is the Catholic one and Mormons and atheists both go to hell.) However, what makes this death worse than any other, and more worthy of being posted to this forum? There have surely been any number of shootings in the US today, some of them quite likely fatal to innocent people. Why pick out this one, then? Surely it was precisely because the people in question were Mormons. But that is still precisely backwards, by the same doctrines Uprooted very kindly quoted at me :
quote:Thou shalt live together in love, insomuch that thou shalt weep for the loss of them that die, and more especially for those that have not hope of a glorious resurrection.
It is the singling out I find a touch hypocritical. Tell me, how many non-Mormon lives are worth the attention of one Mormon?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
That depends. Are any of the non-Mormons you, or anyone as deliberately and blatantly offensive?
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
In what way was my previous post offensive?
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
There is evil in the world and this story is an illustration of what it can look like.
KoM, I like you and all, but you are really being inappropriately irreverent in this thread.
Posted by Chreese Sroup (Member # 8248) on :
You relating every missionary in the LDS Church to a Terrorist suicide bomber.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: In what way was my previous post offensive?
In the same way all your posts in this thread have been.
Someone posted about something they found upsetting and frightening. The death of someone they view essentially as a family member. You poo-pooed it.
If you feel there are other deaths that should be getting attention, please feel free to start another thread. Don't attack other people when they are vulnerable. It is your least attractive feature. (And it has some competition.)
Posted by Papa Janitor (Member # 7795) on :
KoM, the theoretical discussion you seem to wish to discuss is not a problem. Bringing it up in this thread was highly inconsiderate, and the disrespect toward the beliefs of others in some of your posts is unacceptable. Take it elsewhere.
--PJ
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by Chreese Sroup: You relating every missionary in the LDS Church to a Terrorist suicide bomber.
Eh, what?
quote:Someone posted about something they found upsetting and frightening. The death of someone they view essentially as a family member. You poo-pooed it.
Well, I suppose I could say that I was trying to give some kind of comfort by reminding people that the Mormon would be going to his heaven, but truthfully, I wasn't. I do indeed find this level of concern for someone comrade Brian has never met rather overblown.
Posted by Chreese Sroup (Member # 8248) on :
How do you know none of us have met him?
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Because if someone had, they would assuredly have mentioned it.
I shut up now.
Posted by sarcare (Member # 8736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Puffy Treat: My gosh. I met these elders.
This is horrible. My prayers will be with their loved ones.
Chesapeake is in Virginia, my home state. WAVY 10 is the local NBC affiliate.
See, some one did mention it. Though really that seems specious to say you can only be sad for the deaths of people you have met.
Posted by Chreese Sroup (Member # 8248) on :
I don't want to mention my connection, because of asshats like you KoM.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Death is no worse for an atheist, I think, but that may depend on the atheist. I'm more afraid of living than of dying, though I wouldn't call myself an atheist. The term smacks of certainty which I do not have.
And it IS specious to say that people shouldn't care if we didn't know him.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I think the death of someone who is a professed atheist is hard on the family left behind if said family is Christian, because then they fear they may not see their beloved again. I know that's one thing that is hard to accept about my stepfather and his extended family, many of which say they are not believers. Now, I myself can't say for sure what is the case, salvation of individual souls is not for me to impart or to have knowledge of, but I am definitely sadder if I think there's good reason to believe the departed is not Christian.
Whereas I attended a funeral this past weekend of my family friend John, a man I feel quite confident is in heaven right now and it was a somewhat joyous occasion. There were stories shared in the eulogies that brought laughter and tears of joy. I really believe I'll see my friend again one day and that helps, it tempers the grief.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Yes, Belle, I agree that a lot of the funerals of believers tend to be more celebrations than dismal occasions--particularly if the person led a full and long life. I have been to several recently--all of people who died well into old age who left behind loving progeny--and they were such beautiful celebrations, with a quiet, beautiful joy. The only sadness was in the temporary separation from that person.
But if the person was cut down in their youth or prime--the loss of a child, a parent who left children behind, etc, the mourning is intense--because of those left behind and the possibilities unfulfilled in life. Heaven is great, but this life and the opportunities in it are unique and special, IMO.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
Terrible, but given the sheer number of LDS missionaries and the places they go all over the world I think it is significant that this death is significant. In other words I would guess that it is like the battery that lasts five times longer then advertised, you only notice how long it ran when it stops.
LDS missonaries seem to enjoy a special place in God's statistical universe.
BC
Posted by sarcare (Member # 8736) on :
Yeah, but most LDS missionaries that get shot are serving in locations outside of the US, where it doesn't seem as suprising. Though I suppose this was a pretty bad neighborhood as well, but the first reports didn't play up that angle.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
It is possible that people knew him. If I did, I would never say it here because of people like KoM, which group consists basically of KoM. ------
When I was called to Detroit, people were nervous. However, in seven months in the inner city, we were never even mugged, much less physically threatened. I was never nervous at all. However, my cousin John went to Detroit for work for a summer and he was mugged and roughed up a little.
I think...I actually think that the elders may be more vulnerable. On the other hand, that could be a function of statistics - there are more of them, so of course any given victim is more likely to be male.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote: (Unless, of course, the god in question is the Catholic one and Mormons and atheists both go to hell.)
Not really Catholic doctrine.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
It seems they found a suspectin the shooting. I tend to agree that this was a case of wrong place, wrong time.
Posted by porcelain girl (Member # 1080) on :
this happend by my old neighborhood, where some of my family still lives. Several people I know were involved, and am so sad, to have someone ripped away from you so quickly, and without purpose other than self protection from the horrible things you ALREADY did...so cowardly.
My younger brother is on a mission right now and if anything happened to him I don't know how i would continue to function, i can bearly handle even hypothesizing.
first this and then a whole family murdered in richmond, where i also lived, who happend to be friends with a guy i know all the way out here in cali.
some people can't even be called animals, they have just become destructive forces, bridled only by that shit called skin.
i know debate is a huge part of this site, but seriously, don't get you rocks off being a smarty pants over murder.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
At first this made me fear for Zevlag, Annie, and Hobbes. But then I thought again and it just made me feel more proud of them. Giving your life to do God's work for 2 years is an awesome thing. I know that everyone who puts in their papers knows that they might be sent anywhere. They know that it can be dangerous, that two years can become eternity.
I talked to a returned missionary friend who served his mission here in Alabama, and he says he and his companion were shot at on one occasion, too. He knows others who have been as well. He and his companion were tracting (going randomly knocking on doors) in a trailer park, and heard the man swearing and loading his gun after they knocked on his door, so they ran. The man ran after them and shot at them but they had enough of a head start, I guess, that he missed them. I was really shocked at that, because I've been with the missionary sisters on team-ups to some dangerous parts of town, (daytime only) and everyone we saw on the streets was really friendly and nice. They all said hi and smiled. It was cool!
It's amazing work! I have been so excited and happy after teaching people on team-ups. When things click, you can just feel that it's enormously worthwhile. You have the potential to open doors that change so many lives for the better, and it's work that snowballs, because each convert has a great liklihood of affecting others as well, over the course of their lives. It's just a huge joy to be involved in it. Any danger seems so miniscule compared to that.
So, despite the sorrow for this tragic thing, and the huge hole that I know this death leaves in the lives of the families, I'm also happy for Elders Young and Heidbrink, and proud of them for the marvelous work they are doing, and for their commitment and sacrifice.
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
My brother had a gun pulled on him once while he was serving a mission in Las Vegas, but there were no shots, and he didn't really even notice until after the fact (the guy with the gun was really embarrassed about it and apologized profusely to my brother and his companion).
I heard about this case a few days ago. I can't imagine what the family is going through right now. Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Isn't there a hatracker on a mission to Las Vegas right now too? I remember someone telling us they were headed there. Do we have any others out now?
Posted by Rember (Member # 8273) on :
I read that Elder Young's parents addressed about 80 missionaries in VA Wednesday morning. Despite their loss, they encouraged the missionaries to continue the work because it's what their son would have wanted them to do. It sounds as if courage runs through the entire family.
Posted by kwsni (Member # 1831) on :
I thought we had one in Florida, too.
Ni!
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
There was a hatracker on his way to the LV mission, i forget his sn, but I think he'd still be in MTC, it's only been a few weeks.
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
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