I debated not posting this. The content of the news article is... disturbing. And yet, I think it's useful information for parents to have. Or, for that matter, aunts and uncles of teenagers and children.
Be warned. The article is not for the feint of heart and includes explicit sexual references.
I'm not really clear on what parents of older teens are going to be able to do here. I don't feel like a 13 year old should expect the level of internet privacy this kid had, but as the kids get older it's going to be more and more difficult to monitor their activity, isn't it?
Maybe the computer shouldn't be in the kid's room?
Or all comm has to go through a server and the parents have tracking software?
But if a kid is really "into" this, they'll obviously find a way. With eager helpers, apparently.
I'm really concerned about parents sending kids unescorted to places they've never checked out though.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
>>Maybe the computer shouldn't be in the kid's room?
Definitely not.
Ugh. I had no idea.
More important than the restrictions on computer usage is the relationship one develops with one's children. It may not have been this way at all-- but it seemed from the story that the first adult to confront Justin about his porn was the one that made the difference. Like Justin KNEW that what he was doing was off, and just needed an authority figure to say, "Look, this is stupid and you need to get out." From what the article said, Justin went from porn king to penitent in a matter of one conversation.
Perhaps the most disturbing, and revealing thing about the article is the methods of predation. No threats. The predatory community professes love and caring for their victims. It makes me resolve to show even more love and caring for the young people around me, so that they are never conned into believing the BS-love that perverts vomit out into the internet. So that they can recognize that they are already valued in Real Time.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote:More important than the restrictions on computer usage is the relationship one develops with one's children. It may not have been this way at all-- but it seemed from the story that the first adult to confront Justin about his porn was the one that made the difference.
Indeed. And the fact that when he confessed to his father the man beame his businsness partner instead of being the parent that the kid needed is just sickening.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:And the fact that when he confessed to his father the man beame his businsness partner instead of being the parent that the kid needed is just sickening.
Good point. I read that and thought of the Evil Woodcutter thread from ages ago. (The basic premise of the thread was that Hansel and Gretel's father was MORE evil than the witch and the stepmother).
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
Yeah, I always thought their Father was much worse. After all, the witch was supposed to be evil. But what father lets their wife (the step mother) talk him into leaving his kids in the woods to die? When I read my son this story (from a Grimms's fairy tales collection) I added a few descriptive words to the story, to the effect that the dad was an absolutely terrible man and father.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Unfortunately, this is not the first I've heard of this, nor is this any surprise to me, especially in how predators operate. The whole thing is sickening, including the dad.
And yep, I'm with y'all on the gingerbread father being evil. Parents are supposed to protect their children from evil, not be co-conspirators.
Some people just have no clue what kind of harm they're doing. Or if they do know, they just don't care.
quote:It makes me resolve to show even more love and caring for the young people around me, so that they are never conned into believing the BS-love that perverts vomit out into the internet. So that they can recognize that they are already valued in Real Time.
Scott, you've hit one part of the solution square on the head.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:you've hit one part of the solution square on the head.
Bob may likely disagree with me, but I've always felt strongly that part two involves a rusty scissors/pliers combination.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
I don't. But then, I like pruning shears. And nail clippers. Alternately.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Oh, that poor boy. I hope he gets all the help he needs. Posted by Zarex (Member # 8504) on :
For an interesting insight into the situation here, look up milgram's psychology experiments.
I learned about them in my intro to psych and abnormal psych classes. It's really freaky what you can get someone to do so long as they think that you are an authority figure.
Which in this case means an adult figure to the little kid on the internet.
As for pruning shears and nail clippers: I prefer the miracle Max Method, "Why don't you give me a paper cut and pour lemon juice on it while you're at it?"
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I hope he stays safe. Those men sound really dangerous.
-pH
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
That is disturbing. A close friend once suggested I posed for my webcam, and things like that, I broke the webcam immeadiatly (it had been free). I don't think I've spoke to that friend, except in passing since.
Posted by Zarex (Member # 8504) on :
Not much you can really say to that. Good job though.
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
I really like the Kim's 10 Commandments for Kids Online. I also know that when Toshi gets older, the only computer he will have access to will be in the family room--highly visible.
There are simple things parents can/should do to protect their kids. Justin got a bad deal with his dad. Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
My kids aren't using the computer unsupervised and unlogged. And that's all there is to it. The computer will be in a public room, only to be used when there is an adult present. And everything will be logged. That will limit the time they have on the computer, yes. But I'm okay with that.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I think the only reason I would hesitate to log all of a child's Internet conversations is that nowadays, the Internet is a primary method of communication even for friends who actually do know each other in real life. I think there are some things that teenagers really don't want their parents to know about not because they're necessarily harmful, but because teenagers want to have their own lives. I think tracking the Websites visited and such should be sufficient. And not allowing children to keep the computer in their rooms, of course.
-pH
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:I think tracking the Websites visited and such should be sufficient.
"Huh. Wonder why he went to www.anonymizer.com 560 times last week. . .?"
Posted by peterh (Member # 5208) on :
Sick and wrong.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
When I was growing up (and it's still the case now) the family's computer was in the kitchen. This made it very, very difficult to do anything you weren't supposed to, especially while a parent was making dinner. My main example would be playing on the internet when I was allegedly doing schoolwork. Because my time on the computer was limited for a number of years, I tried to find sneaky ways around that rule. They worked, for the most part, but only at night when the parents were either asleep or watching TV in the other room.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R:
quote:I think tracking the Websites visited and such should be sufficient.
"Huh. Wonder why he went to www.anonymizer.com 560 times last week. . .?"
Well, yeah. In that case, there's something going on. I just don't think a log of every conversation is necessary.
-pH
Posted by etphonehome (Member # 999) on :
There needs to be a point where you can trust your kid not to do anything dangerous on the internet. You can't watch them forever. I had a computer with internet access in my room for most of high school, unmonitored, because my parents knew I knew better than to talk to creepy predators on the internet. Just set some ground rules, like "the bedroom door must be open at all times while the internet is in use, or the computer's gone," and "No talking on the internet to anyone you haven't met in real life."
After a while, if you haven't seen your kid doing anything inappropriate, ease up on the restrictions. A little bit of (earned) trust goes a long way in the not-having-your-kid-hate-you department.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
The point is... how do you, as a minor, KNOW that they're creepy predators? You can be anyone online.
My kid can hate me. It's my job to protect my children, not be their buddies. Besides, they won't really hate me under it all.
I would be okay with not monitoring conversations with KNOWN screennames--as in, the kid down the street. I don't mind if they talk with people they don't know in real life--after all, that's how I met a lot of friends, and that's true for my husband as well. I wouldn't want to keep that from my child. I think it's a healthy thing. But the activity is also going to be monitored.
It's not like my kids won't have any privacy. They can have private conversations--but preferrably in person with their friends. I'm not the type to listen in on the phone extension. And I'm okay with increasing the computer freedom as they get older--but I will continue to monitor and "spot-check" logs.
The mother in this story seemed concerned about her son, but she wasn't observant enough. Her patterns were so predictable, that he knew that once she was asleep, he was free to use his webcam. Valuable equipment and other items were delivered to his house frequently, and she never asked to see the website he had created. She never researched it to realize that his income was ridiculously high for a web design business ran by a teenager. She never found the hidden equipment when gathering laundry from his room. She didn't seem very involved in his life in a meaningful way. And she was woefully ignorant of the dangers of the internet for children. I know this was a few years ago, but didn't she notice the billboards warning about online predators?
I know it's tough. I had a computer in my room when I was still a teenager. I had free, unfettered access. The warnings on the front of illicet sites warning that if you were under 18 you couldn't enter deterred me a lot, but not from everything. I turned out okay, but I had my online crushes and relationships. What if one of them had ended up being a predator? I was so foolish with my trusting...because they sounded so nice. And they were nice... so I gambled and won. I might not have been so lucky. The internet was new and strange back then, I got into very small communities where everybody knew everybody and was about my age... in an environment like yahoo! chat I would have been lost.
Well.. now I'm just rambling...
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:There needs to be a point where you can trust your kid not to do anything dangerous on the internet. You can't watch them forever. I had a computer with internet access in my room for most of high school, unmonitored, because my parents knew I knew better than to talk to creepy predators on the internet. Just set some ground rules, like "the bedroom door must be open at all times while the internet is in use, or the computer's gone," and "No talking on the internet to anyone you haven't met in real life."
After a while, if you haven't seen your kid doing anything inappropriate, ease up on the restrictions. A little bit of (earned) trust goes a long way in the not-having-your-kid-hate-you department.
Exactly. There were definitely conversations I had over IM that, while relatively innocent, I wouldn't have wanted my parents to be able to read over my shoulder. The same sense of privacy drives me to leave the room when I'm on the phone with someone.
Also, parents: did you know that you can contact your ISP at any time and obtain a complete list of all URLs and IPs accessed by your account? Most ISPs can even do things like copy every e-mail sent to a specific (e.g. your child's) sub-account and forward the copies to your account.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Besides, they won't really hate me under it all.
Not to sound rude or callous, but don't bet on it: I've watched many, many, many family relationships fall apart because of a lack of trust on the part of the parents.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Exactly. There were definitely conversations I had over IM that, while relatively innocent, I wouldn't have wanted my parents to be able to read over my shoulder. The same sense of privacy drives me to leave the room when I'm on the phone with someone.
Exactly. There are plenty of conversations that I don't feel comfortable having around other people, especially my parents, and it's always been that way.
-pH
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
That's why I hated having our computer in the kitchen when I was in HS. Despite claims that you can't read the screen from a few feet away, there's still that sense that someone's there and able to read your private conversation.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I think that's why my friends started using ridiculously small font.
And I started using it because I wanted to be cool.
But that was only for instant messages. There really wasn't much to be done about chatrooms.
-pH
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
I used smaller fonts because I liked the way they looked better than the bigger fonts. Or you could go all cryptic and use Wingdings.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Also, I don't think kids should have webcams. Digital cameras that the parents keep with them, maybe. But not webcams. Then the parents will know what kinds of photos are being shared.
-pH
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I think being my kids' best friend is a far second to being a good dad. I want them to love me, but I'm not going to go against good sense to be the popular dad.
They're going to be under the same restrictions that I put on myself while online-- that means few IM's and limited time on the 'net. It also means that EVERYTHING is up to be scrutinized.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:I think being my kids' best friend is a far second to being a good dad. I want them to love me, but I'm not going to go against good sense to be the popular dad.
They're going to be under the same restrictions that I put on myself while online-- that means few IM's and limited time on the 'net. It also means that EVERYTHING is up to be scrutinized.
I agree. I just didn't want anyone laboring under the false impression that your kids will automatically still love you when you're done.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
I think it's fair to put the same restrictions on kids that you put on yourself, but what of parents, like mine, who don't use AIM, don't spend a lot of time on the internet at all?
Of course they gave the spiel about not giving out name, address, be careful if you go into chat rooms, don't go into chat rooms, etc, and I listened to them, until uh, recently when I discovered Hatrack and the gift exchange - though I'm also 21 and have two addresses. I try not to give out my parent's address, I only use my school one.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I think it's really important to teach kids to follow their instincts when it comes to figuring out if someone is a pervert or something. A lot of times, they may not be able to tell exactly why, but something just may not feel right.
This skill has come in very handy for me, although I learned it more from friends than anyone else.
-pH
Posted by Krankykat (Member # 2410) on :
Geez, where are this kids parents? Probably in their bedroom masturbating in front of their web-cams. I wonder if they make as much money as he does?
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
One thing I was wondering:
Don't you have to be eighteen to get a bank account of your own? So the mother should have known how much money was coming in, since they would have had a joint account.
-pH
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Well it said he was getting presents and things, so he probably received a lot of packages.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
There is an article in Slate today about the NYT piece.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
No puns. Oh, good heavens, please-- no puns.
I can't even put any smilies here. . .
Posted by Ophelia (Member # 653) on :
I had no trouble getting a bank account of my own when I went to college at 17.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
That seems strange to me. I mean, contracts with minors can't be enforced, right? And a bank account involves a contract. So why would a bank give an account to a minor unless an adult also signed for it?
-pH
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: No puns. Oh, good heavens, please-- no puns.
I can't even put any smilies here. . .
?
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
*snort*
Posted by Ophelia (Member # 653) on :
It's been a while since I last opened a bank account. Is there a contract involved? I know there is with a credit card, and that's why you have to be 18 to have one on your own, but I thought you only had to be 16 to open a checking account at most banks.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I thought most bank accounts charged a fee if you didn't have a minimum balance, which sounds like a contract to me. And I seem to recall that when I got mine (on my eighteenth birthday), my father was worried that I hadn't read everything I'd signed thoroughly enough. Even though I got one that didn't charge at all so long as you used counter deposits. Or...something. Direct deposits? I don't remember. I have a different one now.
But even if the age was sixteen, didn't he start receiving money at fourteen?
-pH
Posted by Stray (Member # 4056) on :
His mom thought he was making his income through his web design business, so she may have co-signed for a bank account for that and then just never looked at it again, or had no idea that the amounts of money he was making were way out of proportion to what a reasonable income for a teenager doing web design should be.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:I know there is with a credit card, and that's why you have to be 18 to have one on your own . . .
Really? I could have sworn I was not yet eighteen when I got my first credit card . . . I suppose I could be mistaken, though.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
I read the NYT article in the paper yesterday. I became more and more appalled as I realized how deep in this kid had gotten.
I have to say that I think a mother would have to be quite uninvolved with her kid's life to be unaware that something weird was going on.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Icarus, you can get a credit card with your name on it on your parents' account when you're younger than 18. But to have your own on your own credit, you have to be 18. I think.
-pH
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
This was definitely my own account, but my memory (of precisely when) could well be muddled.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
I had my own savings account (not co-signed) at 15. I had my own checking account at 17. In Hawaii, at least, you don't need to be 18 to have one, apparently.
Or it could just be that the person who signed me up was a moron, like the person who got me my cell phone was (I was 17 and you're definitely NOT allowed to enter into a cellular contract as a minor).
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
I had my own, non-co-signed, savings & checking accounts at 13 or 14 in Alberta, and that was back in the early 80s. It wasn't hard to get. Oh, and then, when I moved to the Big City, I got another set of checking and savings account, also non-co-signed, when I was 16. It was ridiculously easy.
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