Or did I just get racially profiled or something because they totally kicked me out when I was all set to buy some cds. I can get them cheaper off of Half.com and Amazon but still, it's the principle of the thing. I am really annoyed.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I've been asked to leave bags behind the counter at either Borders or Barnes and Noble (whichever one has Starbucks in it, I think). Usually I just walk out - it's not worth the hassle to me. I've also been allowed in with bags before. Requests are more common in my experience around the holidays.
So I don't know if you were profiled, but it has happened to this dumpy white guy before, so it wasn't automatically profiling.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Some do, some don't. Although if it's a diaper bag, they usually let you get away with it anyway.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
They let me in with my backpack.
But also, I get away with a lot of things that most people don't when it comes to things like that. I guess I look very innocent and harmless.
-pH
Posted by Ophelia (Member # 653) on :
I can respect a store asking you to leave a bag at the counter or outside or something while shopping there (My university bookstore did that. By my senior year there were even free lockers in which you could put the bags--you had to put a quater in, but you got it back when you unlocked it. That worked great!). But if they just told you to leave without an explanation, there's a problem. I wouldn't shop at that location again.
Posted by smitty (Member # 8855) on :
I don't think I've ever noticed that particular phenomenon, but I've went into bookstores with large shopping bags and haven't been bothered. Heck, they let you read the book in the store and even provide comfy chairs - why would you bother stealing it???
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I am irratated too because I was at this store the last time I got let out of work early and no one hassled me. I was totally going to buy a book with all the guitar chords in it too. Perhaps I will complain in a polite way.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
1) What ethnicity are you? 2) How old are you?
Because most retail establishments can and will actively profile against certain demographics.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Those guitar chord books are awesome.
I have The Gig Bag Chord Book (I think). It's long and skinny, and a pretty good book.
Posted by smitty (Member # 8855) on :
Oh, wait, you were going in for CDs... my point was completely useless.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
I've often seen stores, especially stores that don't use the magnetic theft strips, ask you to leave your bags at the front. Particularly if the bag is large and open at the top.
What I've run into more often, is the store that *won't* hold my bags, so I have drag them all over the store.
I think that it's odd that some stores won't help a customer and take temporary responsibility for a heavy/bulky bags, while other stores don't trust the customer and demand the same bags.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: Those guitar chord books are awesome.
I have The Gig Bag Chord Book (I think). It's long and skinny, and a pretty good book.
That's what I wanted to get!
I am black and 27 and I look 17, like a high school teenager that left school early.
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
We have a grocery store that won't allow backpacks. There's a big sign at the entrance about it.
Did Border's have a sign?
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
To my knowledge they didn't.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Having worked retail and assisted in catching an awful lot of shoplifters (many of whom were white and well-dressed, including a sweet elderly couple with an RV of stolen merchandise, and a prominent local pediatrician who had a thousand dollars in cash on him yet was packing thirty bucks worth of hand tools in his pants) I really can't blame any store for trying to minimize their losses. You can't follow everyone and in some cases thefts really affect the store's performance. It is amazing how much gets stolen from the average store.
But the stores should strive to be polite and respectful when they do so. I do my part; when I enter a store carrying a large bag I either tie the top securely (and obviously) shut or I ask if they mind if I carry it in.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Having worked retail and assisted in catching an awful lot of shoplifters (many of whom were white and well-dressed, including a sweet elderly couple with an RV of stolen merchandise, and a prominent local pediatrician who had a thousand dollars in cash on him yet was packing thirty bucks worth of hand tools in his pants) I really can't blame any store for trying to minimize their losses. You can't follow everyone and in some cases thefts really affect the store's performance. It is amazing how much gets stolen from the average store.
Exactly. In the 6 months I worked at Radioshack, we reported over $25,000 in stolen goods.
Granted, about $8,000 (or so we estimate) of that was stolen by a rogue employee, but even so...
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:I am black and 27 and I look 17, like a high school teenager that left school early.
That probably had a lot to do with it. There are more than enough negative stereotypes about black youth to warrant the ignorant hassling you.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I called them and they said they do not allow large bags in case someone should be hit with one, which is sort of reasonable, but I am still a bit annoyed as I really wanted to buy a guitar book and quite a few CDs. Plus I don't have a car to leave the backpack in either.
Posted by Ophelia (Member # 653) on :
They still should have told you that when they asked you to leave.
Posted by dawnmaria (Member # 4142) on :
That must be a policy at that store only. I worked for that company for 3 and a half years and only left a year ago and never heard of anything like that before. We were basically told to do everything short of carry the customer on our back to make them happy.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I reckon it's because they have tiny little ailes...
Posted by xnera (Member # 187) on :
I can't imagine my Borders doing that. It's right in the heart of downtown Chicago, and sooooo many people stop in after work or shopping that practically their entire clientele is carrying a bag of some sort.
Like you, Syn, I don't have a car and do a lot of errands while carrying my backpack. I have no problem with a store asking to hold my bag while I shop (though I make my shopping quick, then, because I get paranoid about my bag). I've hesitated a few times when security asked to look inside my bag (this was when I was ENTERING the store), but I would have let them search it if need be.
The one that really irked me, though, was the salesclerk at K-Mart. My K-Mart is about two blocks away from me--just far enough that I stop there after getting off the bus but before going home, so I have my bag with me. One day i was hot and tired while shopping, so I grabbed a cart and put my bag in it, throwing my coat over it.
Finish shopping, do the checkout thing. Girl looks suspiciously at the lump in my cart.
"Do you have anything else?" "Nope." "What's that?" "That's my coat. My backpack's under it."
I lift the coat to show her. Realising she's worried I'm stealing, I add:
"I can open it if you want to look inside." "No, that's okay. Your total is $xx.xx--if you're sure that's all you have."
EXCUSE ME?
My mom works at Walgreens. I've heard plenty of stories about folks walking out with merchandise to know how common it is. I know the clerk is just trying to prevent loss. But here I am trying to be friendly and cooperative, and she's RUDE to me. I'm still irked about this, and this happened months ago.
Sorry you got kicked out, Syn. I think that was a bit extreme of them.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
I worked in a Barnes and Noble in Atlanta, and theft was positively rampant. I wish they'd just ask you if they could put the bag under the counter or something, but I do understand the impulse.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:I've hesitated a few times when security asked to look inside my bag (this was when I was ENTERING the store), but I would have let them search it if need be.
I wish everyone would stop allowing private security to search their bags. They're starting to think they're entitled to do so.
I'd like pretty much everyone to refuse every search request for a couple of years until people start relegating such requests to the rare status they should have.
(Not trying to pick on you - it's just something that irks me, and I don't see any other way to get them to stop.)
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:I wish everyone would stop allowing private security to search their bags. They're starting to think they're entitled to do so.
They may not be entitled to do so, but I'm pretty sure they're entitled to ask, and refuse to let you in if you refuse.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:They may not be entitled to do so, but I'm pretty sure they're entitled to ask, and refuse to let you in if you refuse.
Absolutely.
If everyone with a bag said, "See ya" they'd stop asking.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Hmm...can they refuse service to someone who won't allow a search? Because if they won't let people into their store, then they have a lot of the power there. Sure, I can take my business elsewhere, but if everyone searches, then I'm out of luck.
On the other hand, I wander into grocery stores and bookstores with my backpack pretty frequently. No one has even given me a second glance. (I'm white/Asian and 20, in case you were wondering). I've been inside Borders around Halloween with a backpack and a billowing black cape under which I could smuggle out half the books in the store. So clearly it's not a widespread policy. Maybe someone just having a bad day and wanting to be a pain to everyone? Or it could be racial profiling.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I've gotten in severe disputes with people who try to search my bag on the way out of a store after a purchase. Both Best Buy and CompUSA used to try it with all their customers. I always refused. They usually didn't know how to handle it. It got to the point where I didn't even stop to talk to them; I'd just say, "No thanks."
Their in-store detective has the right to seize me with probable cause I stole something. Other than that, they don't get to search me. And woe to them if they ever try to force the issue.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
That'd never happen, though, since most people view it as a reasonable request in light of the ridiculous amount of theft that occurs from retail stores.
It's kind of like the PATRIOT ACT - invasion of privacy in order to accomplish a goal that most people agree with.
Since you're much more well acquainted with the law than I am, maybe you can tell me: let's say someone walks out of a store carrying a bag and the metal detector goes off. Are store employees legally allowed to detain and search the customer?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:That'd never happen, though, since most people view it as a reasonable request in light of the ridiculous amount of theft that occurs from retail stores.
They shouldn't view it as a reasonable request, though, because it's not one.
quote:let's say someone walks out of a store carrying a bag and the metal detector goes off. Are store employees legally allowed to detain and search the customer?
If the detector is geared to antitheft devices in the store - not a general metal detector, then they probably have probable cause. The store detective has the right to detain you to investigate. In those cases I hand them the bag with my goods so they can remove the tag (it's happened to me twice). No problem there.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
I remember seeing a case like that, ersomniac. The Oregon Court of Appeals held a session at my high school, and one of the cases they discussed was a guy who set off the detector at a department store. I have no idea how the case was eventually decided, but I do remember someone arguing that they have no right to stop people.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:If the detector is geared to antitheft devices in the store - not a general metal detector, then they probably have probable cause. The store detective has the right to detain you to investigate. In those cases I hand them the bag with my goods so they can remove the tag (it's happened to me twice). No problem there.
Ok, sub-question: Let's say it's a small establishment with a device that is geared toward anti-theft devices (even though these are far from perfect - I set them off all the time with no merchandise on me - you may see where this is going) used in their store, not a department store with established security personnel. Can they stop and search me?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I think it depends on the state. Most states allow temporary detention by store personnel, but some might require specially trained personal for that.
If they ask you to come back in the store, ask if you are free to leave. If in doubt, tell them you'll wait for the police.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
Interesting.
Good to know, thank you.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Of course, it's better to let them search the bag of stuff if it set off the detectors. I don't mind that. I just have a thing about the gradual erosion of respect for person and possession.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
Dag, is there any real trouble in waiting another minute or two to let them check your bag? If you say no when they ask to search you they'll probably get pretty suspicious and get into an argument with you, which would waste alot more time than just letting them search you. It seems like a pointless cause to teach stores to not check customers for stolen items.
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
Nope, in theory I'm with Dagonee. We're giving away way too many of our rights.
Of course in practice, my backpack is obviously a diaper bag because I always have little kids with me, so no one has ever asked to check it. And I would probably cave if they did. I hate confrontation.
But, Go Dagonee!
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
"We're giving away way too many of our rights."
But I just don't see why it's an important right that's worth fighting over. A one minute search to satisfy the store's suspicion that you're stealing something. You can't really blame stores for that, as has been noted here, stores lose alot of money in thefts. Surely there are more important rights worth fighting for. Save your energy for those.
Posted by Irregardless (Member # 8529) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: I've gotten in severe disputes with people who try to search my bag on the way out of a store after a purchase. Both Best Buy and CompUSA used to try it with all their customers. I always refused. They usually didn't know how to handle it. It got to the point where I didn't even stop to talk to them; I'd just say, "No thanks."
I've been tempted to do that, mainly at Sam's Club where they don't bag anything. The store has already had its opportunity to assess what merchandise I'm carrying, when I went through the checkout. They have no reasonable cause for detaining me once I've paid for the stuff.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Dag, is there any real trouble in waiting another minute or two to let them check your bag? If you say no when they ask to search you they'll probably get pretty suspicious and get into an argument with you, which would waste alot more time than just letting them search you.
That's why I've stopped arguing and started walking.
Suspicion-based searches are OK, if they are based on particularized suspicion such as the detectors going off. If it's suspicion I can't notice, they can detain me or articulate a case for the search.
The main reason I oppose those searches is this: "If you say no when they ask to search you they'll probably get pretty suspicious..." I want to get to the point where the mere exercise of a right against a private entity (a right protected against government intrusion by the Constitution) is grounds for suspicion.
quote:I've been tempted to do that, mainly at Sam's Club where they don't bag anything. The store has already had its opportunity to assess what merchandise I'm carrying, when I went through the checkout. They have no reasonable cause for detaining me once I've paid for the stuff.
Sam's is a slightly different situation: you sign a contract to join, and I assume the contract mentions that members have to follow their rules.
Some retail stores like to attempt to change the law by citing their "policy."
Posted by luthe (Member # 1601) on :
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac:
quote:I am black and 27 and I look 17, like a high school teenager that left school early.
That probably had a lot to do with it. There are more than enough negative stereotypes about black youth to warrant the ignorant hassling you.
It seems to me that you are jumping to conclusions that fact that Synesthesia is black would seem to have far less to do with it that the fact that she (he, sorry I have no idea) had a large bag with them.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:It seems to me that you are jumping to conclusions that fact that Synesthesia is black would seem to have far less to do with it that the fact that she (he, sorry I have no idea) had a large bag with them.
...huh?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I think he's saying that with a sample of one, we can't draw any conclusions about profiling.
Posted by HollowEarth (Member # 2586) on :
What luthe is saying, is that nothing anyone has said indicates that this was profiling against anything except people who carry large bags. Nothing in this incident indicates that it was because Syn is black.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:What luthe is saying, is that nothing anyone has said indicates that this was profiling against anything except people who carry large bags. Nothing in this incident indicates that it was because Syn is black.
Oh, I know. I was airing a speculation, based on the things I've seen happen behind the scenes in pretty much every job I've ever worked (all of them retail, sales and customer service related).
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
That is the first thing I thought about as I walked in with this brown skin and a large back pack skulking suspiciously around CDs.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I've seen guards "randomly" search hispanic, Armenian, and black kids, while letting the white kids I knew were more likely to steal stuff go by without asking. Unfortunately. (This was in Glendale, CA.)
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
How did you know those kids were more likely to steal? Just curious.
Posted by jennabean (Member # 8590) on :
Those meanies! I fully support the Synesthesia Shopping Mission because how else would you find fabulous music to send to jennabeans...
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:How did you know those kids were more likely to steal? Just curious.
Because I was in high school with them, and they were the kids who had records of shoplifting, smoking, and all kinds of other defiant "minor" offenses, while some of the kids getting searched were straight-A students who were involved with after-school service clubs, not crime.
![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Grumble]](graemlins/grumble.gif)
Perhaps I will complain in a polite way.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
I think that was a bit extreme of them.