Dear Hatrack, here is AoD reporting with another huge dilemma in her life. I think I am in love and although that is a good thing, I cannot stand the fact that I cannot help who I have fallen in love with. How can I land the bomb here? I will not reveal his name, but I will tell you guys his secret, that which makes the relationship so complicated. First of all, we are not going out yet, but I sense that he is intrested in me because he is always complimenting me with phrases such as, "You are beautiful", "You are stunning!!" and he even bought me my favorite chocolate, Ferrero Rocher, without it being a special occasion. We have so many things in common, such as our love for Japan, sushi, cooking, chili peppers, singers and our majors are the same. He even likes to hear J-pop and he knows about Underworld, my ALL TIME FAVORITE ELECTRONICA BAND!! Not many people know about that band, which surprised me so much. He understands me so much and I know I understand him too, and I just want the moment when I can convey my feelings to him to come already. On Thanksgiving, we were going to a potluck dinner when we had to stop at Ralph's to grab some sodas when he asked me on the way there if I liked to do stuff in my computer and I said that if I could spend 24/7 in my Lappy, I would. He said that he like that and that is what he looked for in a girl.
Well, after all is said and done, I know that I am falling hard for him. Although I have liked a few men in this life of mine, the last time I felt butterflies in my stomach as hard as this time was back in 9th grade, and I had been crushed by that guy.
Now, I love his personality, I had never EVER identified so much with someone so much in so many ways, and that is why I am feeling this for him. Here now, is the dilemma:
His biggest ambition, is to be a woman. He is taking estrogen pills and a variety of other things because he wants curves and boobs. I accept him no matter what he wants to be, but it saddens me that I will have to keep this a secret from my family, the people who should support me in my quest for happiness. If he can make me happy, then why would that dilemma I speak of stand in the way of such happiness? I have made up my mind that I will love him no matter what because only I know what I feel, and I feel that I want to be with him. I just want to gather my courage because if everything goes well in our relationship, I want to have the guts to stand up to the obstacles in our way; yes mother, that may include you. I cannot help but feel bad because I know for a fact that my family will not approve of our relationship should his secret be out, but can we really help who we fall in love with? I know that there will be a time when I will have to choose between what my family wants for me and what I want for myself, I just hope I am prepared when that time comes.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Ask yourself if you could be attracted to, and happy with, a woman as a partner. And could he be attracted to and happy with a woman as a partner. The answer to these questions will solve your dilemma.
I know a transsexual woman who is a lesbian (she was a man, became a woman, and is a lesbian). She is a terrific person. Such things could happen.
Your choice in romance will be yours. The folks might get used to it.
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
I don't think he wants to change his genitals though. He only wants to look like a woman, I'm not sure about wanting a vagina though...
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
It's not love. It's infatuation. There are plenty of guys out there who share his interests -- and, more importantly, yours -- who don't want to be a woman. I'd suggest finding somebody with a little less drama, not least because it sounds like half the reason you're attracted to him is that you find the prospect of that drama -- and the attendant misery, family squabbles, etc. -- to be not only thrilling but ultimately a way to absolve yourself of responsibility for the relationship.
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
How can I tell love from infatuation?
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Of course she's infatuated, Tom. He bought her a Ferrero Rocher! But, you know, infatuated people generally do not appreciate having that pointed out to them.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion: How can I tell love from infatuation?
Generally, in retrospect, honey.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
I hear you can get 'hindsight spectacles' on eBay. They let you see now what you'll wish you'd have known now twenty years from now. If you see what i mean.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Honestly? I believe it works like this: if, when asked, you can say WHY you're attracted to someone -- that you like the same band, or he kisses well, or you laugh at the same jokes, etc. -- then you're infatuated. If you stumble for words (usually a few superlatives) before settling on an anecdote that sums up your opinion of that person, you're really infatuated. And if you launch right into that anecdote as if you had already been thinking about it before you were asked, you're in love.
That's a broad and somewhat sappy generalization, of course. But the simple fact is that shared interests and mutual attraction do not equal love. You're crushing really, really hard, and that's fine -- but you're also crushing on someone who will almost certainly lead to family squabbles and a bit of heartbreak, since he clearly hasn't sorted out who he wants to be yet, and that isn't fine.
Lots of guys like attractive, geeky girls. A surprising number of them like J-Pop, especially the ones who already like sushi and study Japanese. And perhaps you could even introduce them to Underworld if they haven't heard of it already. (And, hey, if Ferrero Rocher is really your favorite chocolate, you need to ask some people for recommendations. It's not a bad chocolate, but it's kind of like saying that Olive Garden is the best Italian restaurant in the world.)
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
Well, I only pointed out the chocolate because I think that is another sign that he may very well be attracted with me too. I'm not sure its just chemistry because I smile everytime I think of him and I think this has been the 5th time in a row that I have dreamt with him, besides, he is spending the week in Riverside right now. I miss him terribly, I am really thinking about why I like him so much and I don't think it is just some infatuation. Trust me, I know what infatuation is, for one thing it only lasts a day with me. When I think about things in a very analytical way, infatuation leaves and reason enters. This time though, things are different.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: if Ferrero Rocher is really your favorite chocolate, you need to ask some people for recommendations
Tom, you jaded old man, AoD is young and innocent. Do not try to spoil her!
You just keep on liking your Ferrero Rocher, my dear, and don't let that old Tom corrupt you by luring you into the dark addiction of premium chocolates.
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester:
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: if Ferrero Rocher is really your favorite chocolate, you need to ask some people for recommendations
Tom, you jaded old man, AoD is young and innocent. Do not try to spoil her!
You just keep on liking your Ferrero Rocher, my dear, and don't let that old Tom corrupt you by luring you into the dark addiction of premium chocolates.
Which, I may add, may be too expensive for a poor little college student like myself. Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: I hear you can get 'hindsight spectacles' on eBay. They let you see now what you'll wish you'd have known now twenty years from now. If you see what i mean.
I'm young and innocent...I don't know what you mean.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Unless your completely different from the majority of humanity, infatution lasts a lot longer than a day. People generally remain infatuated in a realtionship for about 3 to 6 months before they start leaving that stage and moving on to a deeper relationship or breaking up.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with infatuation, in my opinion, it's a natural, healthy part of relationships, you don't need to be ashamed of it.
Caveat: It can lead to bad things if left unchecked and unacknowledged, but on it's own, its perfectly healthy.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: I am really thinking about why I like him so much and I don't think it is just some infatuation.
Then you'll find out soon. Because the other great thing about love is that it demands a certain level of emotional maturity. If you find yourself telling him how you feel but demanding that he figure out his own issues before you give him the time of day, you're probably in love. Otherwise, yeah, you're just crushing.
Posted by tern (Member # 7429) on :
One thing to consider is that even if it is love (and what you're talking about doesn't match my experience of love at first sight, and you haven't had time to develop the regular type) it might not be right anyway.
There are a lot of factors to consider when looking for your match. Not to be politically incorrect, but there's race, gender/sexual orientation/affiliation, culture, age, interests, beliefs, religion (or lack thereof), etc. All of these things should be taken into account.
Just because you might really love him doesn't mean it is right. There is always an attitude of "Oh, if we work hard enough, we can overcome everything!" Perhaps. But it takes a tremendous amount of effort to maintain love between two ill-suited people. Love isn't like a thistle, growing on it's own no matter what you do to it (including burning it to the ground). Love is more delicate. It doesn't last forever unless maintained. You're still young. Take it slowly, there will be others for you later on.
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
I agree with you Tern, but even in those areas, we can truly identify with each other.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I don't think tern is talking about identifying with each other, but with the outside world. You are not going to be in love in isolation -- and neither should you be.
When you're young, it can sound attractive and noble and stirring and passionate to "love" someone when there are lots of difficult obstacles in the way -- like, for example, gender confusion and disapproving parents. But the thing is, those obstacles aren't exactly noble when they're optional, and part of being mature about the whole thing is keeping in mind that, at this stage, everything you're feeling for this guy is optional. Why date somebody who likes J-Pop and wants to be a woman, in other words, when there are plenty of guys who like J-Pop and happen to be happy with being men?
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
I guess, however, I don't think I should pass up the chance of finding out if he is truly the person just for me.
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
that implies that there is only *one* person who is "just for you" Posted by tern (Member # 7429) on :
Generally speaking, there is plenty of people who are the "right person for you". Heck, I had two. Unfortunately, I had to pick only one of them. (That, or join some wacky Mormon polig offshoot) Take your time, don't rush in. Really, you've got a good seven to ten years before you should start feeling hurried (if then), and there's plenty that life has to offer. Including guys who would have as much in common with you, or more.
Oh, and words of bitter, bitter experience: Avoid dating people who have more issues than you. As Tom put it, those obstacles are optional. In my experience, they suck a lot of the fun out of a relationship.
Posted by jennabean (Member # 8590) on :
I agree with what everyone says about being young, confused, and completely and hopelessly infatuated.
Howwweeeever. I am a young'n myself, and I think that's part of the allure of ridiculous relationships. You won't even consider them when you're older because of completely rational and logical reasons. Boring! There's something extremely satisfying about being able to relate through experience, not just something you read on a message board once upon a time. If you like claiming knowledge as your own, you'll experience it yourself and hopefully your heart will live to tell the tale. If you are smart you will just listen to the older Hatrackers and RUN!!!
But that's just my opinion and I'm just a reckless teenager.
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
I might suggest that it's a bad idea to think that the first real relationship you have will be the only one you'll ever have with anyone. It's kind of unrealistic. There is no such thing as "the one person I can be with." There are millions of people. The idea that just one will work for you is just...wrong. Anyway, the best way to tell infatuation from love is to wait things out. Infatuation goes away after a few weeks or months, love lasts a long time. You do seem like you want to love him, but it is something that takes time to develop, and you can't force it. So just try to be patient. Enjoy being with one another, get to know each other. Time will tell if it will work or not. Now, if only I could follow my own advice Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
Oh, this is not the first relationship I have been in.
[ November 28, 2005, 04:24 AM: Message edited by: Altáriël of Dorthonion ]
Posted by Celaeno (Member # 8562) on :
Maybe it's just me, but you seem to be jumping the gun just a bit. You like him; you think he likes you. How do you get from there to worrying about hiding the relationship with your parents? Why not stick with your situation as it is and see where it goes? You've already decided that you would accept him even if he had all the attributes of a woman. Really, why should you lose sleep thinking about the consequences of dating him when an actual relationship is at least two steps off? I would find out if he reciprocates your feelings first.
I say this as someone who overanalyzes everything and tries to constantly stay three steps ahead, but I don't see how doing that in this case will affect your situation besides to cause unnecessary stress.
As for choosing who we fall in love with, I think we have choice in the matter at least as it gets started, but I might be something of an anomaly. (Falling out of love, however, is a completely different story.)
Posted by Chreese Sroup (Member # 8248) on :
Honestly, none of what you are feeling really matters if he isn't into you at all.
Start out asking what he plans on doing after the change, if he is going to be going after men or women.
Posted by Speed 2: Cruise Control (Member # 6765) on :
quote:Originally posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion: Well, I only pointed out the chocolate because I think that is another sign that he may very well be attracted with me too. I'm not sure its just chemistry because I smile everytime I think of him and I think this has been the 5th time in a row that I have dreamt with him, besides, he is spending the week in Riverside right now. I miss him terribly, I am really thinking about why I like him so much and I don't think it is just some infatuation. Trust me, I know what infatuation is, for one thing it only lasts a day with me. When I think about things in a very analytical way, infatuation leaves and reason enters. This time though, things are different.
I smile every time I think about Cartman from South Park.
My boss at work has shown up in my dreams several times.
Whenever The Daily Show goes into reruns, I miss Jon Stewart terribly.
I am not in love with (nor even infatuated with) any of these people.
Just sayin' Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Why does he want to be a woman, but keep his male genitals? It seems like he only wants to be half a woman.
Maybe it's just me, but that right there indicates some problems he has that I wouldn't want to be involved in. This is definitely infatuation, though.
Tough situation.
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
Have you asked this guy out yet? Maybe you could just do that (or something less committal) and see what happens. You probably have plenty of time before you'll have to tell anyone about this guy's desire. And if you decide you can't go through with this guy, you can probably break the relationship off gently at any time as long as you don't say or do anything silly. Do you think you'd still be attracted to this guy after he became a woman?
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
Yes I would be. It is weird that I do not consider myself a lesbian though...I don't think its his body I am attracted to, it is him as a person. That to me is the most important thing.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
A better question might be "Why do I keep picking complicated relationships?"
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
Ha ha. Had I been her, I would've stayed with him even if he was now a she. It is not the body that matters, but the person.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
But there's also the issue of sexuality and sexual chemistry, is there not?
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
Yes there is, but I think that would be far more into the relationship, its not like I'm going to have sex with him at this stage.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
If you're worried about what your parents think, you should also be worried about sexual compatibility. They're both long-term fears.
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
quote:But there's also the issue of sexuality and sexual chemistry, is there not?
Yes. There's loving someone, which you can do with more than one person at a time, men or women; and there's being IN love with someone, which involves physical attraction and should only be with one. Is it not possible that after he becomes a "she" you would still love him (her?), but not "in that way"? Maybe he'll become a best friend.
Also, to say that you don't control who you fall in love with sort of lets people off the hook who "accidentally" fall in love with someone else after they are married. True love leads you to a decision to commit to this person, and that commitment is sometimes the only thing that keeps you there even when you're temporarily attracted to someone else. In that situation you HAVE to control who you fall in love with.
I did have this situation in college; I loved someone who I knew was not the best person for me. I knew I'd never marry him, even though the thought of breaking up was so painful, because I knew he didn't help me be the best person I could be. You can make a choice about what you commit to, even if you can't choose who you're attracted to.
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
I don't understand something though, how can wanting to be a woman if you are a man be a sin? I think that a sin is something you do with malice. If he wants to be a woman and he has the opportunity to be one, then I say go for it. After all, there is but one life, make sure you enjoy it.
I know that perhaps my perception of him may change when he becomes a she, but I know that I will still love him because he will still be himself; the person I love.
Posted by Sartorius (Member # 7696) on :
But don't people usually enter into long-term relationships in part because they are attracted to each other? I'm so straight it's not cool. I think my girlfriends are beautifull, but I am not sexually attracted to them, so I would not consider being physically intimate with any of them. But if you swing enough to be attracted to the new, estrogen-heavy him...I don't see how the question of sexual attraction doesn't matter "at this stage". I'm not just being an illustration of the sex-crazed youth of today, am I? It matters!
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: how can wanting to be a woman if you are a man be a sin?
If you define "sin" as "something you do with malice," it probably can't. But many people don't define "sin" that way.
Me, I think the guy -- based only on what you've said -- sounds confused and a bit lost, and it probably wouldn't be healthy to throw yourself at him until he sorts himself out.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Tom,
I can't believe you're actively campaigning to deter someone from exploring a relationship. That's kind of low.
[ November 28, 2005, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: kmbboots ]
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I sooooo agree with what Tom has said in this thread.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Tom,
I can't be you're actively campaigning to deter someone from exploring a relationship. That's kind of low.
Riiiiight....it couldn't POSSIBLY be because he is worried about the possible ramifications for her, or that he sees some things a bit clearer than she does because is isn't emotionally attached.
She ASKED for opinions, right? Tom isn't just jumping in, he isn't being mean, nor is he saying anything other than his opinion on the matter.
How low indeed. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I'm fairly certain they were mocking me. I was highly amused. And horrified that instead of flat-out dropping verbs, I am truncating them.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Kwea, it was an in-joke. It's a reference to another thread.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Sorry, Kwea, for being less than clear. And, katherina for both my poor typing and any offense. I was trying (not very successfully) to make the point that, perhaps, Tom's advice to be cautious was no more sinister there than it was here.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Oh, I wasn't offended at all. I checked the original quote and the poor typing was my own. Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
I'm glad (and relieved).
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I think sexual attraction is definitely an issue. Sure, you can love him for who he is, but if you want to get into a relationship, the physical part is still a part of it.
It's no secret that I do enjoy a good makeout. I won't date someone, even if I think he's a wonderful person, unless I'm attracted to his physical self as well as his personality. If I don't WANT, on some level, to have sex with him, then I don't see the point.
So I'd say that unless girls do it for you, it'd be a bad idea to get involved with someone who wanted to be a girl.
-pH
Posted by tern (Member # 7429) on :
quote:I don't understand something though, how can wanting to be a woman if you are a man be a sin?
Well, I'd argue it's a sin, and I'd love to take up space explaining why, but it's immaterial. Every relationship is populated by sinners. I don't think anyone is concerned because of it's religious implications, we're concerned because of the added difficulty that it puts on the relationship.
I was young once, before I was a bitter conservative ideologue and religious zealot, and I remember approaching every relationship like it was the last, and thinking that I'd feel so bad if I didn't find a right person for me. It passes. And you should eventually find the right person. Don't be too quick to jump into this.
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
If I were in the analogous situation (a man attracted to a woman who wants to be a man), I'd probably go out with her without making any long-term commitments. When she became sufficiently masculine to be unattractive to me, I'd probably let her go (having dropped some hints before this that I would do so).
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
I think just the fact that she wasn't comfortable in her own gender would be enough reason for me not to date her. But I like things to be reasonably simple.
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
I'll try my best to carry things out accordingly, I don't think I am making a mistake. I agree with the last two comments to some degree, but at the same time...as I said...its about the person.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Maybe the two of you could be friends?
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
*this happens to be a line from the person that you are all talking about*
Freindship is important, and I personally have always believed that it takes time to grow into love. The most important thing to me at this moment is to honestly not hurt AoD, because maybe she is falling a little too fast and no one can stop her from that. Still that doesn't mean she is wrong to fall like that. What I tell her now is to be patient as I said not too long ago. I agree with you all for warning her about the drama, because believe me there is a lot. As for my sanity let me put it this way, I've been doing this for two long years now, I know who I am and have learned to never compromise that for anyone, the best I could do is keep them from being hurt by it.
So to Miss AoD, you are beautiful, and very sweet and I'll be honest I do care for you, but I worry that you'd be unhappy. Be patient, smile, and remember reguardless if its me or someone you really deserve any relationship comes with understanding and compromise. You're 18 hon, and I think you're bound for something amazing.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: Freindship is important, and I personally have always believed that it takes time to grow into love. The most important thing to me at this moment is to honestly not hurt AoD, because maybe she is falling a little too fast and no one can stop her from that.
Dude, let me translate for you: "I'm flattered, Altariel, but you should really start looking for the exit."
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
Tom, you just got it all wrong.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
That's an enormous relief.
Posted by tern (Member # 7429) on :
It does seem like he's trying to let you down nicely. Plus for him as a person, but probably not the optimum indicator for crunchy relationship goodness.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
OK....sorry about that, it seemed a little weird, that's all.
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
It's alright Kwea. After all is said and done, I still think that he may have feelings for me, he just doesn't want to get me involved into anything so complicated. I thought about what my family expected for me to look for in a man, and after such thoughts, I know that none of those expectations are what I want for myself. In other words, no matter who I am with, my family will always have some objection because what I want is completely different from what they want for me.
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(And, hey, if Ferrero Rocher is really your favorite chocolate, you need to ask some people for recommendations. It's not a bad chocolate, but it's kind of like saying that Olive Garden is the best Italian restaurant in the world.)
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