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Why did he do this?

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Originally posted by theresa51282:
People can't always predict their own actions no matter how hard they try. It doesn't mean you can't trust them. It just means that they aren't perfect and all knowing. Let people grow and change and learn. Making mistakes isn't the end of the world. Its the beginning of finding a path.

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Why did he break promises to God and to me like this?

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So obviously his faith is less important to him then he claims.

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the more I get involved with my church, the more I'll meet guys that are worth my time, the kind of guys that would share more than just interests, they'd share my faith.

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It's not OK for this guy to date a non-christian, but it's ok for you to be best friends with her? Whats the difference?

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"Do not yoke yourselfs with non-believers."

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Why did he break promises to God and to me like this?

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How do you know he swore an oath to god? Did he hold a bible in his left hand and hold his right in the air and proclaim to god that he wasn't going to date till college? Now his betrayal to you is something that you have every right to be upset about, but as many people around here have pointed out, he is not worth being upset about.


Now, Tinros, let this teenage boy be as hypocritical as he wants, it's between him and god, and unless your one of the people who protests at soldiers funerals because god is punishing them for the U.S. allowing homosexuality, then I expect you to have enough logic skills to figure out how hypocritical your being about this.
 

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Posted by Historian (Member # 8858) on :
 
You say he made a promise to god. Isn't that promise between him and god... not you?

You two broke up... What he does from now on is his business. Not yours.

As has been said... He can't date her, but she is a good friend... To the above I'd add, that she obviously doesn't think you are that "good" a friend to risk losing your friendship over this dude.

I suspect the root of this problem has little to do with this fellow and more to do with a much deeper issue. The fact that the relationship is a month dead and you are still emotionally in it, points to something far more complex.

I would ask you to reflect not on why he has done what he has, but more on why what he did matters so much to you. I know you are Christian, but I hope you will keep and open mind as I recount a lesson from Buddhism.

There is a story of two Japanese monks who were traveling together and arrived at a river where they met a beautiful geisha girl who could not cross the river on her own without messing up her fine kimono. So, the elder monk took her on his back and carried her across. When they had reached the far bank, he put her down and they went on their way. The younger monk did not say anything. But he strongly felt that the elder monk had not behaved properly. As the temple came in to view he asked, "Do you remember the young woman we met at the river? Was it proper for a holy monk to carry her across? She was a beautiful lady." The elder monk turned to him and said, "I left her by the bank of the river. Are you still carrying her?"

Historian
 

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Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
 
There is a group of people I hang out with every day, just because of the way our schedules run. This girl is in that little group of people I call my best friends. She had no idea there was anything going on between me and matt- he didn't even tell her he HAD dated me until after he said yes. When I say he swore an oath to God, yes, I mean he actually Told God, and myself at the same time, that he wouldn't date until after high school. THat was one of the things that made our break up a little bit easier for me- that he wouldn't replace me so soon.

As for Bible verses, I can quote half the Bible, but I can't remember where I read it. I rarely remember things that are TOLD to me. I have to see them.

The "yoked" part comes from a chapter talking about marriage and children. That's why it is assumed that it's implying marriage/dating relationship, not just friendships. After all, Jesus' best friends were the lowest of low. But he didn't date any of them.

Oh, and JT? It's very easy to avoid people in my church. THe youth group has about 300 high schoolers.
 

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Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
 
LMAO

If she didn't know about you and your boy toy, then I wouldn't call her my best friend.

He has moved on, so what... You may still have feelings for him, but you'll never move on if all you do is sit around and drool over him

If you don't know where the verse came from, why are you so confident that you know what the context around it means?

300, that does give you better odds, but remember, it's a small world...

Now if it's sympathy your looking for your not going to get much from me. I mean you brought me out of my lurking because your whining irritated me so. I mean this is what, your third thread on the same looser. MOVE ON AND DON'T BLAME RELIGION FOR YOUR BEING UPSET.

Oh, by the way, Adult relationships are a lot harder than you think, this one sounds rather easy to work through compared to other scenarios, so learn your lesson and move one.
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
>>Jesus' best friends were the lowest of low.

Mmmm. . . well, they weren't movers and shakers of the day, but neither were they the 'lowest of the low.' Let's not get carried away here-- none of the apostles were starving or pariahs when Jesus met them. (Notable exception may be Matthew, who tradition states, was a tax collector.)
 

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Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
WWJD: Who Would Jesus Date.

Tinros,
You are obviously angry and upset, and with some justification. The boy promised you he would date you if he dated anyone. I'm trying to imagine how that conversation could have come around and the boy not feel "pressured" in some way. At the very least, he knew what you wanted and didn't want to disappoint you further (or didn't want to confront the issue truthfully).

Whatever else we can and can't say about him, we can certainly say that he's likely no better at dealing with these situations than you are.

You are both young and inexperienced, from what you have said. I'm very glad you have an older sister to talk to and get some sound advice.

I'll just add one more piece of advice. Anyone who would treat your heart so shabbily does not deserve your trust and affection. This episode, and the ones that have preceded it, should be convincing you to guard yourself from his influences on you. This is a sign of maturity, sadly, but one that makes good sense and should serve as an indicator to you of your own readiness to engage in a good and rewarding relationship with another human being.

Just as Matt has trampled your heart, it appears you may have pushed him too hard or too far. I'm not saying this to belittle you or talk you out of your pain. I am saying, however, that you may also not yet be ready for the kind of relationship you were hoping for from Matt. To pursue a person who does not care enough about you to know when to tell you the truth is a mistake. I hope you come away from this stronger and more sure of yourself so that you do not make that mistake in the future.

Imagine, if you will, a life of marriage with a person who feels like they are linked to you by an immature reaction to the pressure you put on them.

Imagine, instead, a life of marriage to someone who finds real joy in being linked to you.

Which do you want?

What can you do to achieve that?

It is extremely unlikely that Matt will ever be that person. He isn't that person now.

I know you are only talking about dating, and so this isn't about lifetime commitments. But I'm sure others will back me up on this. We all know many people who make the same mistakes in choosing a spouse that they did when they were kids just learning about dating.

I'd say take your own advice and use dating as way of learning how to related to someone on a close personal level in an atmosphere of mutual love and respect. Just don't put up with anything less than mutual love and respect.
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
You know, I almost think you should kind of take a time out from going to your church while you sort your life out, Tinros. I recognize this is going to go over like a lead balloon on this forum, and I don't say it maliciously, but sometimes we need to take a step back from our everyday routine to get to know ourselves a little better. Sometimes it's good to take a breather from things that stress us out, and I'm not sure that your religion isn't one of those things.

In any case, good luck. I wish you all the best.
 

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Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
<sits back to watch the reaction>

This ought to be good.
 

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Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
One of the hardest lessons to learn is that it's better to be alone than to be with someone who doesn't want to be with you.

He promised you because he didn't want to date you, but he didn't want to hurt your feelings.

Go back and read the original thread you started on this and you'll see a lot of people (myself included) giving you that advice. People here have your best interests at heart.

You'll be alright.
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
Uh, let me clarify. I didn't phrase my last post very well. What I'm fumblingly trying to say is that sometimes the burdens of trying to live up to, and in, the codes of a community can be kind of stressful, and that maybe taking time off for yourself, to give yourself a break, can be beneficial. I think this can be true of work, school, or church.

When I suggested you take a break from your religion, Tinros, I meant the religious community. I didn't mean to stop having a moral code or anything.

I'm not a King of Men, anti-religion person. I do think, however, that everything can be gone overboard with and that it's good to have moderation in most things in life. (Except moderation. *rim shot*)
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Sure, if trying to be a disciple is getting hard, the solution is to give up trying. <-- not a serious statement

Tinros, I agree with what Bob said about this guy. It sort of sounds like you wanted a great deal he didn't want to give, and he didn't want to hurt you further but telling you everything. It's not really fair to put that much pressure on him. If someone doesn't want to be there of their own free will and choice, pressuring them will NOT make them care.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 

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Sure, if trying to be a disciple is getting hard, the solution is to give up trying.

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Leaving aside the issue of whether or not this was a serious statement, I should observe that at some point people need to decide whether what they're doing is right -- and is working for them -- and I believe that one of the best ways to tell whether a life choice is "right" is to tell whether it's "working." In other words, if trying to be a disciple -- of anything -- is so hard that on balance it brings only harm into your life, perhaps that's a sign that you should consider becoming a disciple of something else.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I should have known that someone would blame Tinros' issues on her religion.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Frankly, I think it contributes. Much of her pain and bitterness seems to stem to some extent from her perception of other people's relationships with God. A slightly more laissez-faire attitude would probably be more functional.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
You don't think it's possible to grow in a religion while actually in it?
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
I think it's harder. Most personal theological growth that I've personally seen from people occurs as they switch religions; the search and conversion process itself helps drive that growth. People who grow within their religion generally get really interested in apologia, I've noticed, and I think it's for the same reason.

Belief is largely valueless when it comes to development; it's the search for truth that produces value.
 

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Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
 
To be fair, I don't think people are talking about her specific religion or beliefs so much as how she views that religion.

That is, I am sure Tinros could be just as faithful to her religion without taking on the responsibility of worrying about other people's promises to, or covenants with God.

[Edit: slowly typed before the last two posts. Makes more sense in that context. ]
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
It's possible to search for an answer to the next question without tossing away the answers you recieved to the last.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 

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It's possible to search for an answer to the next question without tossing away the answers you recieved to the last.

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The danger in that approach, of course, lies in assuming that the last answer you believe you received was absolutely correct, and refusing to consider alternatives even once it inexorably leads you to other, less satisfactory answers as a consequence. The threat posed by any belief, in fact, is that people often wind up having to invent reasons and rationales for other conclusions based on those first flawed answers, and call this "growth."

But, then, I'm a born skeptic.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Sometimes, people walk away from things that are important and difficult and call it freedom. But then, I'm really stubborn.

In this case, I don't believe that this guy is actually violating his religion. In that case, closer study of it would clarify things. I think talking to the youth leader or a pastor about this would be a good idea.

Also (and Tinros forgive me), I think the guy lied to her when he said he didn't want to date anyone until after college, in order to spare her feelings. In that case, the lie was a violation, but dating someone else isn't.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Except that if he also made that promise to God, he's quite specifically violated one of the Ten Commandments in a way that people who say things like "Oh, my stars!" should really, really mind.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Yes, the lying was a weenie, crappy thing to do. I don't think he's behaved well; I disagree on the specific violation here.

I've also been told "If I married anyone, I'd marry you." It's a way to reject somebody without actually saying it. In that case, I think he meant it, because in the ensuing half-decade he hasn't dated or married anyone else.

This actually amazes me. Is there a handbook out there, somewhere? How do these holy scumbags all come up with the same lines?

Either way, Tinros is better off without him, because he is not the person he needs to be for her.
 

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Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
 

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Frankly, I think it contributes. Much of her pain and bitterness seems to stem to some extent from her perception of other people's relationships with God. A slightly more laissez-faire attitude would probably be more functional.

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I am not sure this is true. Ultimately the bitterness felt by Tinros comes from the feeling of being betrayed herself. Any bitterness felt on behalf of G*d is probably only an indirect way to channel some of her own feelings on the subject.

I know plenty of people who are just as bitter as Tinros regarding a breakup who are not religious at all. These people generally focus their wrath on the new girlfriend.

Tinros, what you are experiencing is perfectly normal for a person your age. All of us have dated someone who is not as into us as we'd like them to be. All of us have grown distant from close friends because we have chosen differnt paths on the jorney of life.

As you grow older you will become wiser in these matters. I just hope you're able to develop a healthy skpeticism instead of all-out cynicism towards this whole dating business.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
Tinros, you can't be responsible for what other people do or say. Sometimes they'll lie and sometimes they'll do things you simply don't agree with. And you need to understand that it is unreasonable to hold a person to what they say while they're in a relationship with you, or even right after--once the relationship is OVER, that is.

I've had ex-boyfriends promise me that they'll love me forever, and that no one in the world could ever measure up to me, and bla bla bla... I've said some of those same things as well. I said them because they felt true at the moment, but I'm thankful that they're NOT true. Otherwise, there'd be guys out there pining for a happily married woman--and if I still loved them, I wouldn't be very happy in my relationship now, would I?

Fact is, he didn't marry you. He has to live his own life, and he can't base his decisions on promises he once made to you. The right thing to do is to forget he ever made that promise to you and to move on. I know that's hard to do in high school, it's such an artificial environment--you're pushed together with people you'd otherwise avoid. But it is possible.

I even hesitate to call him a jerk, although he acted like one. His lying was wrong, but I get the impression you were pretty pushy about getting the answers you wanted from him. After all, you said yourself that part of what helped you deal with the breakup was his promise that he wouldn't date anyone else until after high school. You do realize what an unreasonable request that is, don't you? If he chooses not to date, it has to be because he chose it for himself--because he felt it was best for him. It sounds like he chose it because he knew it would make YOU feel better, no matter what he said to the contrary. When we break up with someone, we have to deal with the fact that someday, they'll be dating someone else. I'm not saying you meant to be pushy or manipulative to get his promise--it's probably something he picked up from you without your conscious effort. You'll outgrow that behavior. And hopefully he'll outgrow his jerky behavior.

You don't belong in a covenant that was made between him and God. At all. Whether or not he breaks it is none of your business. Only he is responsible for keeping or breaking that covenant. You can only be responsible for the promises you make. And someday, you'll probably also find yourself in a situation where you need to let yourself break a promise you've made foolishly. And next time you won't make such a promise so readily. (I say this because I wonder if you made a promise to yourself to love Matt forever.)

Best of luck. These times in your life are extremely difficult, but things will get better--and probably in only a few years. Being a teenager can really suck. So learn what you can, and keep telling yourself--this too will pass.

-Katarain
 

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Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
 
It's possible that a happy medium could be reached between katharina and TomD and Tinros could attend another church for a little while. That was the way I read SS's suggestion. I think based on my knowledge of churches of her size that for her religion and social life are all mixed up and it might be hard to seperate them where she is. Perhaps if she attended a smaller church for a time she could learn to seperate them. It would also give her a chance to recieve some personal spiritual advice/counseling, in a way that probably isn't possible in her current church.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Blacwolve, that is fantastic advice, and a very moderate practical course.

I'd actually go either way though, going to a larger church, where she could be more anonymous, and less involved socially, but still get spiritual teaching, could be an idea too.

AJ
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
*hugs Tinros* Love hurts sometimes. I'm sorry about all of this.
 

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Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
 
The church I go to has a special "Small group" night where you go to a house with six or seven people of your general age and grade. The goup I was with was 9 girls, from 16-18 years old, all juniors and seniors in high school. It was an incredible experience, and helped me a lot. I haven't even gone to the main service in a while- marching band took up all my time. But now band's over, and so are small groups until January. But my sister will be home tomorrow, so I'll talk to her again then.

I don't really understand myself. I woke up screaming in the middle of the night last night, and was pretty upset all throughout today- but part of that might have been from NHS inductioins(I had to give a speech and play piano for the tapping ceremony). I wish I could take a few days off from school... but hey, THanksgiving break is next week. I can hold out til then.

Our school has a club, started by Matt, that's dedicated to learning Japanese. That's where he met this new girl- she just moved into our district a couple months ago, and they met a little over a month ago. I was really involved with JClub- I helped Matt with the website and helped get people interested in it. We all chose a Japanese name. Mine was Sei- or truth.

I place a lot of importance on honesty. He knows this. But what really makes me mad is his insistance that he has done nothing wrong. He believes that I should be happy he's dating, period. He says it doesn't matter if he broke a promise to be honest, as long as he's happy in the end. It doesn't matter if I feel like I could die over it- but I've always been the trusting, over-emotional one wherever I lived. I don't know anymore.

I'm just tired of drama. I wish my life could go back to the way it was a week ago, before any of this ever happened. But I'll just move on. One of my friends came up to me today, gave me a big hug, and started singing that "Just keep swimming" song from Finding Nemo. It made me laugh, and cheered me up some- she's crazy like that.

It's funny. Matt's new girlfriend offered to break up with him if it would make me happy. But I told her not to. But, she did tell me, that if he tries to convert her(which he plans to), she won't give him another five minutes with her. She doesn't tolerate that kind of thing- she's happy the way she is.

As for me being pushy- most of the promises he made to be honest were after I found out about another lie or another broken promise. I should be mature enough to take that as a, "he probably won't keep it." kind of thing, but I'm not. I guess I just need to grow up.

I don't know. Sorry this has been a long rant, but I needed to vent to people who would actually respond, with mature advice. THanks.
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
Harsh advice coming up. I tell you this because I think you deserve to be happy, and so you can avoid a mistake I once made.

When I was in college, I met a guy at church who I thought would be a perfect match. We became good friends, did a lot of stuff together, he enjoyed hanging out with me, but just wasn’t interested in dating. Eventually I found out he was dating someone else, and anytime he said anything about a disagreement with her, I secretly thought how much better for him I would be. Even when I found out they were engaged, part of me still thought he should come to his senses and dump her for me.

It took a long time for me to realize that the fact he wasn’t interested in me that way was not my fault or his fault, it was just the way things were. But eventually I realized that 1) I had no claim on him, and 2) by continuing to think that way I was behaving like “the other woman,” interfering in someone else’s relationship (even though I never actually did anything to try to break them up).

Matt is not yours. He has made the choice to date someone else. Whether you think he made a mistake or not, it's his choice, not yours. That does not mean you are not attractive, lovable, and worthy to date. However, you now need to choose if you are going to be the kind of woman who chases guys who are “taken.”
 

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Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
 
What my church also did, that I loved, was pair each of the girls in the church with an older woman. Not necessarily really old, but just old enough that you could go to them for advice. I met with my mentor, Lydia once a week and we would talk about problems we were having spiritually. We also read books together and tried to read a chapter of the Bible each week to discuss with each other. It was a great experience. I think something like that would be really helpful for you.

I think what would be really good for you is to talk to someone who's been through all of the high school years, who you would accept as a mentor or authority. Not just because of this instance, but in general. You might talk to your pastor or youth leader and see if something like that can be set up. One of the reasons I suggested a smaller church was because at my church everyone would stick around after the service and you could go up and talk to anyone about problems you were having, questions you had, and stuff like that. It was one of the things I liked best about my church. Maybe you can do that at a larger church, but I think it would be harder.
 

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Posted by foundling (Member # 6348) on :
 
"I'm just tired of drama."
I think one of the major aspects of growing up is realizing that most of the drama we all have in our lives is there because we invited it in. The easiest way to get rid of that drama is to examine yourself and try to find that part of you that allows and encourages it to exist. This is especially the case when it comes to romantic relationships.
It really sounds like the guy has given you MULTIPLE reasons, over a long period of time, to not trust him. You acknowledged this, and it seems that you are now being forced to acknowledge that he wasnt really good enough for you all along. Thats actually a really good thing. It doesnt seem like it, because it hurts to have that knowledge shoved in our face, but it's a much better alternative to never learning it, right?
So, now, what you need to focus in is not the drama that he and his current girlfriend might have, and how that is going to affect you, but rather on why you let your feelings get so caught up with such an unworthy person in the first place, and how to avoid it the next time. This will probably take some time, and some serious effort. It's worth it, though. Coming to the realization that this pain need never be felt again, and acknowledging your power and ability to make sure it doesnt, is much more important to your now and future happiness than the temporary solace of an immature relationship.
It really does seem that you are at a point in your life where you are ready and willing to be honest with yourself, and I wish you luck in finding the strength to become a happy adult.
 

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Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
 

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What my church also did, that I loved, was pair each of the girls in the church with an older woman. Not necessarily really old, but just old enough that you could go to them for advice. I met with my mentor, Lydia once a week and we would talk about problems we were having spiritually. We also read books together and tried to read a chapter of the Bible each week to discuss with each other. It was a great experience. I think something like that would be really helpful for you.

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I guess I just need to grow up.

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We all do. Or we have at some point.

But the most encouraging thing you've said, IMHO, is this simple admission.

I'm a lot less worried about you than I was earlier.

Good for YOU!


 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
To kind of riff off of what dkw said, I think the main thing teens need to get through their heads is that if something doesn't happen right now, it doesn't mean it's never going to happen. There is so much pressure you guys put on yourselves, and that is put on you, to perform; not just to perform, but to be perfect: to be perfect girls, perfect academics, perfect in spirit, perfect in love. This is why I suggested getting away from things for a bit. Stepping back and just kind of giving yourself a break.

You, Tinros, sound like you have a lot on your plate and are a perfectionist. You, Tinros, sound to me like the person that is killing yourself because you are trying to be a perfect Christian, perfect academic, and a perfect friend.

You can't be perfect. Things are almost never perfect, and never become perfect. The people you love never love you back the way they should, the dress you buy is never just right, the body you have never will behave perfectly, and they'll always be people who dislike you for no good reason. This is just the way things are.

Cut yourself some slack, my dear. Take a vacation from your goals at some point and recharge, k?
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Tinros, I know how irrational emotions can be. I know how tied up you can be in someone, thinking they are the only one you could be happy with, that even if things weren't "right", they will never be so "good" etc.

I don't know that my wishing has any power, but this is what I would wish for you. I would wish for you that his sordid behavior would wake you up to his unworthiness. I would wish for you that what was once magic, sweet music, light, and color would turn to mold, decay, filth, and putrescence.

It isn't so much that I want you to hate him, only hate the idea of being with him romantically. I don't think he is deserving of hatred, and hatred is just another form of obsession anyway. I just wish for you to lose all interest in him beyond the fact that he is a human being deserving of compassion--same as any other.

I just wish for him to no longer be alluring in your eyes in any way. Kinda like the phenomenon I have heard many men describe when they see a severely hawt woman--who then lights a cigarette and instantly becomes repugnant to them.

May you move forward and never look back once. Let him not be "The One That Got Away", but let him be the one you broke free of.
 

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