I've been working on this story for a little while, and the other night it ocurred to me:
All of the (few) female characters in it are nasty people.
There are some decent structural reasons for this. It is a fantasy story, with the protagonist being a sort of manual day laborer, who hardly interacts with any women at all. He grew up with his aunt and uncle, and his aunt isn't evil or anything, but she doesn't deal with it well when she discovers he has magical powers. There are good societal reasons for this, but still, she doesn't come off well to the reader. It can't be the uncle who has this reaction, because I need the uncle to teach him his craft. The protagonist can't be a girl, because that would change the nature of the relationships later on down the line, that need to be as they are.
Then there is the petty, manipulative, weak, ungrateful daughter of a landowner who becomes fixated on the protagonist. If I make her male, that changes the whole direction of the story, in ways I'm not interested in exploring with this story. Also, her being female makes her father's reaction make sense.
There is no shortage of unlikeable male characters, by the way, but there are at least two that are sympathetic: the protagonist and his uncle. (Even they don't get off completely clean, btw.)
What would you do if you discovered a story you were writing had an unsavory undercurrent like this? If you couldn't recast it, would you discard the story? I've already done this much: there was actually a third deeply negative female character, and I realized that she at least could be replaced by a male character.
I don't think I'm especially sexist. (Really! Some of my best friends are bl--er, women!) I realize nobody thinks he or she is sexist, but it doesn't change my self-evaluation. I've written stories with great female characters in them before, too. This just happens to be how this one came to me. Can you imagine if this is the first one I sell to a major market, and because of it everyone judges me as sexist from then on? I know, I know: I should have such problems!
But still . . . Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
I'd say just do something to improve it. My stories are always kind of sexist, in that most times the women in them are in more powerless roles (like needing to be saved). The way I attempted to fix it later on was by making the female characters be more active, more assertive, and such. So yeah, I'd just suggest rewriting some. Maybe if you need a nasty female or two, then put in a non-nasty female to balance it out (to show that you don't think all females are nasty).
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
quote: Then there is the petty, manipulative, weak, ungrateful daughter of a landowner who becomes fixated on the protagonist
Maybe write some backstory that shows why she's this way, and makes the readers sympathetic?
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
My stories tend to be too long already. This is a short story likely to come in at 10,000 words. I provide a lot of backstory for the protagonist, and a fair bit for the main antagonist (who is male).
This is a stereotype . . . I guess she is a stock character: she is the way she is because she is a spoiled airheaded rich girl.
Are stock characters always wrong, though? Particularly in short fiction?
(I mean, it's not as though there are no spoiled, airheaded rich girls . . . )
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Can you make the aunt not approve but obviously because she's scared for him and doesn't want him to get in trouble? That could make her come off better. If the uncle is teaching him his craft, I find it unlikely that the aunt has been unaware for their entire marriage that the uncle has magical powers, so while she might disapprove of the nephew going down the same road it shouldn't be because she hates magic and can't deal with it. And, you say, you can't have the uncle react poorly because you need him to teach, why not have the uncle react poorly and have the aunt be the one who teaches? Is the magic attached to gender, so you can't do that? If that's the case, then yeah, I'd say the story is pretty sexist.
If you can't do that, I would say you have to find a way to throw in a sypathetic female character for balance. Maybe it's someone he meets later who helps him on his way. *shrug* Or maybe it's a dragon. I like female dragons in stories, authors always seem to default dragons to male. Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
I say go for it and get it out of your system.
Sometimes we write just for ourselves, Icarus, and there will be no other story until we have done so.
(Still struggling with unlikeable characters, herself . . . )
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Ah -- I started that before you said it was a short story. Probably no dragons, then. Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Keep it the way it is... I just hate sanitized stories as much as I hate purposely sexist stories... Adrian Lyne comes to mind... Dang, I hate that guy... And Dr. T and the Women >.< But, if you are thinking about it, at least you'll make it very good with a lot of interesting back story and not just a bunch of contrived stereotypes.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
My bad, El Jay, I didn't explain that well. The uncle does not practice magic. The craft the uncle teaches is blacksmithing. It seems inplausible to have the aunt teach this, in a feudal society.
Magic is regarded as completely evil, so one who has that capacity is to be shunned or killed. His uncle will hide his ability because of his blood relationship to him. (Structurally, because I need someone to teach him blacksmithing, so it should be someone sympathetic.) In the story, the protagonist spending his days in the smith keeps him out of his aunt's way. The aunt is scared of his evil nature, and also of the fact that he could bring ruin down on her family--which he does. So, while she is unsympathetic, she is right.
There aren't any dragons or othe overt magical creatures or signs of magic. To all outward appearances, this is a mundane feudal society.
EDIT TO ADD: . . . and mundane feudal societies are pretty sexist, no?
-o-
btw, Raymond Feist's dragons are always female.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Maybe I could throw in some surprising nice gesture from the aunt in the midst of her ugliness that makes her seem more complex/conflicted than we may realize . . .
[ October 15, 2005, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: Icarus ]
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Hmmm, I have read very little Feist.
Posted by JannieJ (Member # 8683) on :
The story is the story. I'd leave it.
Posted by littlemissattitude (Member # 4514) on :
I agree with Syn on this one, Icarus. If there are good reasons to write those characters that way, reasons that serve the story - and it sounds like you have good reasons for writing them that way - leave them the way they are.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Sounds like you're on track for a literary award. But you need to make your hero more mysogynistic. Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
Piers Anthony's A Spell for Chameleon (the first Xanth, I think) is similar to what you're talking about in that there is not one female character who isn't seriously flawed in some way. It seems like the message he was trying to get across was pretty girls are the cause of all the world's problems - or at least the protagonist's.
But it won an award, too, so you very well may be on the right track. Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
If the title of this thread was My story is sexiest! you wouldn't win any awards but you'd probably sell a lot of copies.
--Enigmatic
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
kq and FC, your words are very reassuring. Thank you.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
I'd say leave it as is, just because everything forced, whether to include racial or sexual or political diversity, will be forced.
Except the original Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers, but then, perfection can happen anywhere.
George R. R. Martin did a great job of making powerful women in feudal societies -- only one actually donned armor, and most are savagely murdered when their men fail to protect them, but I'd argue Cersei Lannister is among the most powerful people in the series, for her command over both her own power and those she seduces.
I say let it play out realistically, just don't let yourself forget women can be powerful, too. And nobody has to be, or should be, nice. Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Very few people in the story are nice. The uncle is nice but undemonstrative. Except in the ultimate way. The protagonist is vaguely nice, but mostly naïve and reacting to forces he does not fully understand. The Girl is powerful, due to her position, but silly and vacuous and self-centered. The aunt is not socially powerful, but I believe she is the most well-developed female in the story. She is powerful in the force-of-nature way that has nothing to do with nobility. She is a woman to be reckoned with, and perhaps feared a little. She is not loving, and when she decides to withdraw what little affection she has for the protagonist, it is one of the more savage scenes I've written. It hurt me. Her actions hurt me as if they were real. But hopefully readers will understand where she is coming from. (And I think the idea this thread gave me for letting the reader see some remorse in her in the end might help soften her.) The antagonist, who is male, has a legitimate beef. He has suffered and been hurt. But he is taking his suffering out on the (relatively) innocent.
Now, there are characters we only hear about through other characters, like the antagonist's wife, who are, as far as we know, good people. But she's not developed at all. She is just your standard issue Loving Wife.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Sounds fascinating, Icarus. I also say leave it.
It just doesn't sound like the sort of thing that would get you labeled as a sexist. It's too subtle, and to be honest, people aren't *that* discerning.
I think you will get a chance to show that you are, indeed, *not* sexist.
Posted by Kettricken (Member # 8436) on :
I also say leave it. If all your stories have good men and evil, misguided or weak women readers are likely to be aware of sexism. In a single short story you cannot have a perfect balance of good and bad characteristics in men and women.
The fact you are aware of it suggests this is an issue in a single story. Another story may work out where the most sympathetic characters are women.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
A General Comment about this topic: Don't forget that making women powerful is not necessarily a solution to being unintentionally sexist. If I wrote a story about men beating up women all the time it would be sexist but it would contain entirely strong men.
I just hate those "warrior women" characters who are nothing but a powerful body in armour.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I'm not all that fond of the "warrior woman" image either--especially since it too often the characters seem every bit as male-fantasy-fueled as other sexist female characters.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
mmmmm....warrior women....in leather...mmmm
er...
I mean, Bev, I have no idea what your talking about.
Icarus, I say keep it. Your story is also obviously racists as there isn't a single East Timoran in it that is heroic, and what do you have against East Timoran's anyway.
Of course, if all of your stories involve nothing but bad women, then I think you need to seek some professional help.
or you've had a very hard romantic life, and we would then demand to hear every juicy detail.
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