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I've heard it said that a volunteer military collects from the dregs, so does anyone else think that becoming more selective, and only accepting the best would benefit our country more...

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As long as the enemy attacked in single file, maybe.
 

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Posted by Khavanon (Member # 929) on :
 
I think they do to a small degree with the ASVAB limits, psych/drug/medical history, etc. However, certain services (the Army in particular) seem to be having trouble keeping up with the force strength they desire.
 

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Posted by Khavanon (Member # 929) on :
 
Can I assume you're a Ft Gordon linguist? I might know you personally.
 

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Posted by airmanfour (Member # 6111) on :
 
the MSgts know. just because they're Master Sergeants doesn't mean they have to be happy with the raw material forced upon them.
 

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Posted by airmanfour (Member # 6111) on :
 
OPSEC
 

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Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
 
Actually airman, the MSgts and many of your officers may have come from the "dregs" as you put it. It isn't about the quality of a person's background as they enter the service, it's about the quality of the person they become.

Or do you have a specific measuring stick to use?
 

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Posted by airmanfour (Member # 6111) on :
 
check your email
 

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Posted by Khavanon (Member # 929) on :
 
Ah, I saw that you liked languages, live in Augusta, and joined the Air Force about the same time I did. I'm a Chinese linguist. That's where I made that assumption. I know a few people that went to Ft Gordon.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
I was in the Army, and while I did better than most in schooling there, there were a number of people there that made me look stupid.

I usually manage that on my own, so I was a little suprised.

I found that there was a mix of people there, and some of the brightest people there weren't the best soldiers...and some of the best soldiers weren't very good people.

That is true for a lot of professions though, and overall I found that most of them were better educated that most civilians, and were very competent in suprising ways.


I have a question...how would such a military meet it's necessary quotas when they already have trouble even accepting the "dregs"?

Let me guess...you are about 21, at most?


Keep in mind that there bullets don't care how smart you are or how much better you think you are than the others. Soldiers die in combat, and not just the dumb ones.
 

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Posted by airmanfour (Member # 6111) on :
 
No, no gold standard, it's just that i expect a certain degree of professionalism and intelliegence, and so far the senior enlisted and company grade officers haven't let me down, its the junior enlisted who lack drive and national pride reflected in themselves.
 

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Posted by airmanfour (Member # 6111) on :
 
you know Dubeau?
 

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Posted by Khavanon (Member # 929) on :
 

 

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Posted by airmanfour (Member # 6111) on :
 
it probably isn't possible, but i have ever been a proponent of quality over quantity
 

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Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
 
What we have here is an impossible problem.

We need X number of soldiers for our army.

When we ask for volunteers we usually meet our needs, but their may be people joining just to get away from a life of poverty or prison.

What are you suggesting, that we reduce our army to the size of only the top 10% of those volunteers or that we draft the top X of our people into the army--ala Ender's game?

The result of drafting is getting an army that doesn't want to be there, and losing the top X number of people from our standard economy.

I think the army does a great job with those so called "dregs" of society they are getting.
 

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Posted by Khavanon (Member # 929) on :
 
Kevin? Yeah, I'll be seeing him in a few weeks. He was in my class at DLI, and he was a good friend of my sister as well.
 

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Posted by airmanfour (Member # 6111) on :
 
ficires@hotmail.com EMAIL ME
 

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Posted by airmanfour (Member # 6111) on :
 
or use that MSN IM thing
 

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Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
 
From what my husband has told me, you probably would have considered him one of the dregs when he was younger. There were points when he was a screw-up soldier: attitude problems, personal issues, etc. At some point, though, he matured and began to understand what he needed to do. He is now an Army SFC. Would he have been able to mature as well in the civilian world? We'll never know, but I suspect not.

At any rate, his biggest personal mission is to take the "problem soldiers" under his wing and really work with them. He's had significant success in turning them around into good soldiers.

Besides, brilliance is not required of most soldiers. Courage, loyalty, and steadfastness are much more important.

Also, the Battle School was a group of elite soldiers. I bet you would find that the various special forces would be more like what you expected.

--Mel
 

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Posted by airmanfour (Member # 6111) on :
 
they arent doing that badly, but that is because they are trained VERY well, but these people are ONLY familiar with their training, anything else, and they're out in the dark without a flashlight
 

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Posted by airmanfour (Member # 6111) on :
 
its the senior enlisted like your husband, ma'am, that keep some units a family. There are very few with that dedication to their people.
 

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Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
 
Unfortunately that is too true. However, and this is just based on my own observations, it seems to me that the worst soldiers have the potential to become the best NCOs, if they manage to turn themselves around. But, yeah, it can be hard to tell which ones those are.

I think our system could definitely use some tweaking, but overall it works pretty well.

Now, don't take this the wrong way, but there are also differences between different branches, and between different locations or specialties within the branches. Is it possible that the people you have come into contact the most are at the lower end of the spectrum? My husband just spent two years augmenting Air Force Security Forces (even though he is Army), and by the end he was thoroughly disgusted with the corruption and ineptitude he saw at this Air Force base. So, you might find things to be better (or worse, who knows?) when you move on to a different base.

--Mel
 

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Posted by airmanfour (Member # 6111) on :
 
i have been stationed at two army posts and an air force base. my above feelings are a reflection of my experiances. I'm not really a big fan of security forces myself, so i sympathize with your husband. but my original point was that to have a fighting force capable of anything, it is a necessity that the best exist at all echelons of command, from flag officers to flag bearers. the "we'll take anyone" mentality can only hurt us in the end no matter the different branches' recruiting goals.
 

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Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
 
af, you'll find there are some awfully good people out there among us "dregs" (I was tossed out of USAFA, so I think I qualify as a substandard soldier). Just one old wannabe's opinion, but I think your mission capability would be a lot better served by finding ways to work with and motivate what you do have rather than trying to change the raw material... that's someone else's job and, frankly, a near impossible one at that.

One of the points of basic training is, that in addiion to a chain being only as strong as its weakest link, you don't get to choose your links... find ways to strengthen the ones you have.
 

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Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
 
Also, the comparison between Battle School and the United States military is not particularly useful.

The Battle School kids were carefully chosen for their abilities, and were expected to become commanders. Not only that, but they were elite officers, because apparently there were other officers who had gone through training as adults, such as the commanders of the individual ships sent out.

Contrasting elite, highly trained officers with enlisted soldiers is of course going to reflect poorly on the enlisted. They are still important, though, and removing them would pretty well gut our military. Ender wouldn't have been able to defeat the buggers without soldiers to command.

--Mel
 

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Posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged (Member # 7476) on :
 
After all the Patriotism, the songs, and flag waving that happened after September 11th all the super quality people you want could have signed up. Unfortunately for most part they didn't sign up. So I thank every "dreg" who has every served his or her country for risking everything so every "quality" person can stay safely at home.
 

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Posted by tern (Member # 7429) on :
 
I wouldn't compare The Corps to Battle School, that's apples and oranges - but I would say that the vast majority of my fellow jarheads were some of the best people I have ever dealt with. Even if they weren't all the smartest.

My first reserve unit was made up of half engineering students and half law enforcement. Extremely smart people.

I would conversely say that the all volunteer military attracts the best - perhaps not the brightest, but the best. Because nobody is forced to join, it is mostly people who have the values of sacrifice and patriotism.
 

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