Saw the first 8 eps so far. It's interesting, if a bit stilted in dialogue and the CGI laughably bad. Then again, this was 1993...still, they couldn't even match Star Trek TNG quality when showing space ships and stuff?
But I heard it gets good--even awesome. So...what do you think?
Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
I really liked it when I saw it, but it was years ago so...
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
I feel kind of guilty about it, but I was completely unable to get into Babylon 5 and Farscape because the production values were so bad. I didn't even give them a chance to show me other things I wouldn't like about the shows Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
TNG used models for the spaceships, B5 used pure CG. Huge difference.
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
yea twinky, i realized that after i posted the comment.
Posted by Human (Member # 2985) on :
Also, with B5--you have to realize that the writers were using the first season mainly as character and setting introduction. At the beginning of season 2, the main character changes...and it starts to get really, really good.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
Yeah. The first season wasn't that great... not that you can skip it. You can't. You mustn't. But the REST of the series rocks.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
We had a thread a while back that said which season 1 episodes you could safely skip.
A lot of season 1 really stinks.
I look at it kinda like The Lord of the Rings -- parts of the beginning are really dull, but the payoff is awesome, so it's worth it.
Posted by PUNJABEE (Member # 7359) on :
quote:Originally posted by Human: Also, with B5--you have to realize that the writers were using the first season mainly as character and setting introduction. At the beginning of season 2, the main character changes...and it starts to get really, really good.
Yeah exactly. B5 is a really great show. Honestly, Firefly would have been a better show by far, but poor Firefly didn't have a chance to kick butt.
Can't wait for Serenity!!!
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I loved Babylon 5...but then they moved it to cable, and my parents' house doesn't have cable, so I missed out.
-pH
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
pH, if you missed the last (5th season) when it moved to cable/TNT (or TBS? forget which), you didn't miss much, the last season had maybe 5 good episodes and was MUCH worse than season 1. (Season 1 I thought was OK... but it does pick up more speed starting with the second season... and seasons 3 and 4 are excellent.)
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I think season 5 was better than season 1.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Season 5... Telegoths... ::shudder::
"Who's this metrosexual and why is he messing up my favorite TV show?"
Posted by Human (Member # 2985) on :
Still--even though seasons one and five aren't stellar, the sheer greatness of 2-4 is amazing. Part of that is also due to the fact that J. Michael Straczynski, the creator of the series, wrote every episode of seasons three and four.
Oh, and by the way, I know many will disagree with me--it's really, really hard not to be at least a little attracted to Delenn once you hit season two. She's awesome.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
She is.
Although she freaks me out in the pilot. :shudder:
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
indeed, Delenn is somewhat attractive in season 2+. But its more of a gentle kind warm fuzzy feeling she's like what 30 in the show? Too old.
Season 1 I will agree is slow, season 5 however while also slow is okay, (so far, I only watched the first half so far of season 5).
But ya, everything else is pure teh aswome!
DOWNLOAD IT! or... BUY IT!!!
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
On the DVDs, Straczynski explains that everyone thought season four was the last season, and that season five wasn't approved until just as they were wrapping up the last episode, which he put at the end of season 5.
Even those episodes that weren't really part of a story arc are enjoyable to me because I really enjoy the acting of Peter Jurasik, Adreas Katsulas, and Jerry Doyle. Mira Furlan is sometimes great, but not always, and the rest I think really rely on the story to shine.
Keeping in mind that I haven't watched any Firefly, and very little of the new Battlestar Galactica (which, from having watched only the tv movie, I thought was excellent), I think Babylon 5 is the best science fiction series ever made, because it is the most original and the most human science fiction series ever made. Everything has a price. Nothing is free in Babylon 5.
Posted by Kettricken (Member # 8436) on :
I also love Babylon 5. The characters develop through the series and actions have consequences. Serious consequences.
Mild spoiler – will not mean anything to people who haven’t seen the episode…. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Just be careful if any one asks you “what do you want”
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Keep in mind that this was the first show to go completely CGI as well...at the time I remember being impressed with it.
Now it looks horrible, of course....but the lightsaber duel in the first Star Wars movie looks silly now, doesn't it?
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Babylon 5 is the BEST sci-fi show ever made.
The CGI was groundbreaking at the time...and by Season Two it became better than anything Star Trek could do. In fact the CGI team went on to do all the Star Trek special effects later on.
First Season is introduction...Second Season is where things really pick up...leading to cataclysms never before seen.
This show was a first time for so many things that in the past ten years we take for granted in sci-fi. It was the first show with a grand story arc, where the big red reset button wasn't hit after every episode, main characters and whole races die on a regular basis, the science is real, a gay relationship on TV, on and on...
Long live the Narn Empire! Long live the Kha'Ri! Beware the Lords of Order and the Agents of Chaos.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Babylon 5 is a wonderful novel, filled with foreshadowing, character development, and more than one interesting plot twist. Star Trek was a series of short stories. Sure the characters were interesting, but we hardly have time to see them in more than a few shallow dimensions.
Remember, nobody is exactly who they seem.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Actually, even way back in 1993 I remember them bragging on the "making of" shows about how awesome their CGI special effects were, and I remember thinking back then that they sucked.
I hate it when people abandon models altogether for CGI. CGI's just not good enough yet.
I have watched a handful of episodes on TV, not in order and not enough to get a sense of the thread. All that being said, I have simply never been able to get into this show. None of the characters have ever mattered to me, even within an episode. Everybody has their own stuff that's important to them, but for my money, it's not even in the running for best science fiction series ever. It doesn't even belong in the conversation.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
*spoilers* G'Kar and Londo's relationship and role reversal? The fall of the EA to Darkness? The virtual extinction of the Narn? War between Angels and Demons? How is this not good sci-fi?
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Icarus, read a dozen pages of Ender's Game... Out of order.. and give us your opinion of the book.
Because that's what you just did with Bab5.
(btw, there's a ship in Bab5 called The Icarus)
Pix
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Not in the running? Here are some standard quotes from a random collection of episodes:
quote: "You will have to wear a cast. And it's gonna hurt." "Swell. Ouch." "I can give you something for the pain." "Oh, great, now you can give me something for the pain. Where were you when I was going through puberty?"
-- Franklin and Ivanova in Babylon 5:"The Geometry of Shadows"
quote: "I had an Alfredo Garibaldi under my command during the Dilgar invasion. Excellent soldier." "That's my dad." "So much for genetics."
-- General Richard Franklin and Garibaldi in Babylon 5:"GROPOS"
quote: "[sigh] Fasten, then zip. You?" "Fasten, zip!"
-- Sinclair and Garibaldi in Babylon 5:"Babylon Squared"
quote:"Zathras not of this time. You take, Zathras die. You leave, Zathras die. Either way, it is bad for Zathras."
-- Zathras to Major Louis Krantz in Babylon 5:"Babylon Squared"
quote:"Excuse me, I need to see Draal." "Oh, Draal is very busy! Have had four ground quakes on other side of planet. Damage to weather control system, to great machine." "Zathras!" "Yes?" "What the hell are you doing here?" "Zathras work here. Zathras were born here. You work up there, Zathras work down here. You dress like that, Zathras dress like this." "That's not--" "Just covering all possibilities. Zathras does not want you being confoosed. Bye." "Hey! Wait a minute! You are not supposed to be here. We left you a thousand years in the past." "No! We have never met before. But Zathras very pleased to be meeting you." "No, we have met." "No. Oh. No, noo. No no. You did not meet Zathras. You met Zathras."
-- Ivanova and Zathras in Babylon 5:"Conflicts of Interest"
quote: "Commander! Did you threaten to grab hold of this man by the collar and throw him out an airlock?" "Yes I did." "I'm shocked. Shocked and dismayed. I'd remind you that we are short on supplies here. We can't afford to take perfectly good clothing and throw it out into space. Always take the jacket off first, I've told you that before. Sorry, she meant to say: 'Stripped naked and thrown out an airlock.' I apologize for any confusion this may have caused."
-- Sheridan and Ivanova in Babylon 5:"The Illusion of Truth"
and my politicaly prophetic favorite
quote: "The royal bloodline isn't what it used to be. Too much intermarrying I suppose. I always say: 'When you reduce a family tree to a family bush, you just can't hide as much beneath it.'"
-- Minister to Londo in Babylon 5:"Epiphanies"
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
spoilers below
How many shows are there where there is a love story in which the two characters never actually get to express their love?
The love story that wasn't between Marcus and Ivanova expresses all that is great about B5. In almost any other television show, you would've had Ivanova engaging in some cheesecake with Marcus within a couple episodes of the viewers finding out that Marcus desired Ivanova. But B5 not only didn't go right for the easy drama, it drew Marcus' love for Ivanova out with wit and charm ("I made this chart showing where you and I are in the heierarchy."), did so consistent with the internal logic of the characters such that the love never happened, which made the desire of the character all the more poignant.
We see the same thing in the love Lennier holds for Delenn.
Everything has a price in B5, and that price is the blood, sweat and tears of the characters. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't, but it's the tragedy and triumph of the struggle that makes B5 so engaging to watch.
[ September 25, 2005, 01:14 AM: Message edited by: Storm Saxon ]
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Don't forget Ivanova and Talia Winters.
Posted by Dav (Member # 8217) on :
It's been years since I've watched a B5 episode, but I still remember the whole story as an awesome experience. (I even liked seasons 1 and 5, which I notice some other posters here have dissed. (Although they weren't as great as 2-4, I admit.))
In addition to a lot of good stuff other folks have mentioned, one relationship in the show that I liked a lot was the buddy-friendship between Dr. Franklin and Marcus. It was fun to watch their interaction when they went on adventures together.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
*mmMM SPOILERS* I loved the Narn from the beginning. They were the best lookers with thier big shiny head and spots, best dressers with that green metal all over their clothes, best starship with those AWESOME 4 mile long heavy cruisers.
So when the Centauri teamed up with the Shadows to take them out... WOW. I was floored. The once bad guys were suddenly the good guys! If anyone, the Narn could have saved the galaxy. They were the former philosophers turned hyper aggressive with the largest military complex, second only to the Minbari. And then, though lies, deciet, and using the Centauri as cover the Shadows picked apart the superpower that would have been a major threat to their plan.
And the final doom for the Narn Empire...the destruction of the Main Fleet and the Golden Order. The entire Narn navy wiped out in ten minutes by the Shadows. Then the Centauri role on in and nuke the Homeworld and inner colonies for five days. Never had anything like that been on TV before. And I don't think anything except the new Battlestar Galactica has come close to that.
And G'Kar as the last surviving member of the Kha'Ri... giving that last great speech. G'Kar walking out of the Council Chambers showed not only the end his carrer and political influence, but also of the entire Narn race.
[ September 24, 2005, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Andreas Katsulas is an acting god.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
"Everyone always coming to Zathras with problems. Great responsibilities. But Zathras does not mind. Zathras trained in crisis management."
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
"Zathras? Zathras! *grumble* Never around when he's needed..."
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Guys, you've gone MASSIVELY spoiler heavy!!!! Label em or delete em!
God I'm glad you weren't around when I was watching for the first time!
(Though I'll gladly sit through them for a 6th time with you =)
Pix
Posted by Architraz Warden (Member # 4285) on :
"Zathras is used to being beast of burden to other people's needs. Very sad life... probably have very sad death, but at least there is symmetry."
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
I had a teensy crush on Marcus. Very strange...
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Oy, I loved that show. The acting was ... well, the main character in the first season was not terribly well-acted, though some of the others were (Feels the G'kar love).
Anyway, there were hints at the greater story in most episodes, no fear of killing off major characters and so forth.
It was one of few series that really rewarded paying attention to details. For example, I loved the X-files, but it really didn't pay off. B5 came as close to really paying off as anyone could expect (what with the whole fourth season being cancelled and then getting funding after one of the leads had taken other work).
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
All you guys saying season 5 wasn't good are on crack. While I will grant you that the overall season wasn't quite as good as 2 to 4, because of the lack of any real plot thread to keep the whole season together, I still thought that it was quite solid. Certainly much better than season 1. And the last show? Sleeping in Light? I cried and cried. Man, that's at least one of the best, if not the best of the whole show.
I know this thread died, but I just found the last show so affecting, I wanted to share with kindred souls.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:But its more of a gentle kind warm fuzzy feeling she's like what 30 in the show? Too old.
Anybody who thinks a 30-year-old is too old to be sexy has a lot to learn.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
"Sleeping in Light" was actually made on the Fourth Season time and money. That's how they were able to show Ivanova....which I'm more than happy! Long live Our Lady of the Purple Nightgown! And I cried too... ALOT. Bab5 was with me all through college, so when it ended a whole era of my life ended too.
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
Guys, I have officially gotten hooked on this program. The moment of truth came when yesterday I received from blockbuster.com the first disc of season 2 without the final one of season 1 that should've accompanied it--so I pop it in just for a preview and all of a sudden there's a major new character and spoilers, and I thought, damn, why couldn't you wait? Still, saw two episodes back to back and was totally engrossed. So far I'm totally digging B5, ESPECIALLY this sense of an epic storyline. Gotta go back and finish season 1 later today. I feel so geeky watching this show, but I swear, I can't stop...
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Also be sure to watch Starwrech, the first ever indeginous Finish film.
So..... Was Talia and Ivanova actually you know lesbians...? *goes to watch it again*
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
Just an update: It's a favorite.
Really, I have no idea how I've managed to fit this much tv viewing into my schedule but since I started this thread in September I've managed to finish season 1-3 and now into 4 episodes into season 4.
NORMALLY I would never watch a series that fast but because of the continuing plot lines and growing story, B5 is indeed like a novel. And just like I have to finish a novel I'm enjoying as fast as possible, I must do the same with B5. (How is that for rationalizing away watching too much tv?)
These episodes I recently saw--the first four of season 4--they really seem be what the show has been building up to. The sheer drama and intensity. The vorlons with their Planet killer...and Zha-Dum (from the cliffhanger of season 3)...and The First One. And Londo and Vir on Centuari Prime contending with the mad emperor. Wonderful!
Best Sci-Fi show ever.
Sorry Firefly.
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
Incidentally, I adore the fact that the show seems so fascinated with Tolkien's Lord of the Rings.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
*makes mental note to purchase Babylon 5 dvds*
-pH
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I didn't see that the show was fascinated with LotR, can you elaborate?
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
*spoilers*
Well...
-"Zha-dum" = "Khaza-Dum"
-A returning "Great Enemy". The manner in which the return of the Shadows is alluded to repeatedly with much dread, much like Sauron's return.
-The character of Lorien (Spelling?) Him being the "First One", an ancient being. Reminded me a lot of Treebeard. Well, that may be a bit of stretch, but really--the name of the character and his ancientness suggests for me a Tolkien-esque connection.
-The fact that Sheridan drops off into a chasm and returns changed, much like Gandalf.
-The Rangers. The Rangers!
-Marcus Cole the ranger being so much like Strider.
Etc.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Hmmm. I believe Straczynski specifically mentioned that he was fascinated with myth. As has been mentioned on this forum, myth often takes certain forms. One of the episodes in Season 5 actually explores this idea, by looking at B5 from the future, and how B5 becomes myth.
Despite what I said above, I think that it really doesn't fit, as B5 is much less myth and much more an exploration of human choices within the archetypes of chaos and order. Straczynski isn't doing allegory. The Shadows and the Vorlons are shown to be flawed themselves, not gods. Merely very powerful races. B5 and Sheridan are mythologized, but we repeatedly see that the myth doesn't match the reality.
I get what you are saying, but B5 is at once a lot less nuanced than Middle Earth, and a lot more nuanced. I think the things you mentioned are really more incidental than specific homage. For instance, I think it was clear Sheridan coming back from Zaha-Dum after death was that he really *hadn't* been changed, but people kept on wanting to cast him in this role of the returning savior.
Interesting idea, though, and I'm not convinced that you're not right on some levels.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Babylon 5 was my favorite show for years, but I don't think it comes anywhere close to being as good as Firefly.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Firefly didn't have time to be Bab5.
And bab5 had it's bad shows and bad seasons which Firefly didn't have time to have either.
I think it's a mistake to compare the two simply because we had so few episodes for Firefly to take off.
Pix
Posted by tern (Member # 7429) on :
B5 had an epic feel which IMO, Firefly didn't have. Except for near the end of Serenity, of course.
Posted by Magson (Member # 2300) on :
I got my gf hooked on B5 a few months ago. We're watching the dvd's in order, usually 2-3 episodes a week, give or take. We're into the 2nd disc of season 2 now, and she's loving it. And I'm loving going through it all again too.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Cool. Posted by Silkie (Member # 8853) on :
Babylon-5
I resisted being drawn into Babylon 5 for the first year or so... mostly because of the reasons you gave: stilted dialog, silly effects, poor makeup. My hubby watched it from the beginning. As he watched I was listening from the next room, while on the computer. I have to admit, it sucked me in: the dialog, the humor, the Truths. It takes a good show to pull me away from cyber-space.
Stick with it Somalian, and you too will become a devoted fan.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Check out the writers for the show. Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
Storm--nice analysis. In the end I think JMS being fascinated with LOTR (his favorite book) couldn't help but reference and slightly be inspired by Tolkien in some aspects. That's my interpretation though about the inspiration--but he does indeed reference the LOTR saga quite a few times. Actually just looking it up now it turns out Lorien is one of the woods ruled by elfs in LOTR. Heh.
Silkie--thanks. I'm already hooked on the show, especially with G'kar and Londo...and Vir. And Mr. Morden...
--about my Firefly comparison--all in good humor. Any science fiction show I'm exploring for the first time and enjoying I always give the label greatest sci-fi series ever. Didn't Firefly try to avoid some of the elements that makes B5 so good? Anyway, I adore both, but B5 has the advantage of being complete. =D
After all, Schubert's Unfinished symphony, despite its charms, is still unfinished...
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I didn't think the dialogue or the acting was nearly as good on Babylon 5. Don't get me wrong, I loved Babylon 5 but you have to admit the actors (minus Andreas Katulas, Mira Furlan, and Peter Jurasik) pretty much sucked.
Also, I personally think Joss Whedon is a better writer than JMS.
However, I've seen most of the episodes of Babylon 5 so many times that the dialogue no matter how good has to appear stilted and the acting has to feel wooden. So maybe I just have a skewed perspective.
3rd Season spoiler quote:
"This is Ambassador Delenn of the Minbari. Babylon 5 is under our protection. Withdraw, .. or be destroyed." [in the White Star!] "Negative. We have authority here. Do not force us to engage your ship." "Why not? Only one human captain has ever survived battle with a Minbari fleet. He is behind me. You are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else."
Severed Dreams
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Is LotR JMS's favoriate book? I did not know that.
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Babylon-5