Am I the only one who is noticing the rapid growth of the off-tin pronunciation being used in the media? It's driving me up the wall.
Do they say liss-tin, or whiss-til?
The "t" is silent, people!
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
It's not silent when I say it.
But then, comfortable and vegetable often have four sylables when I speak.
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
Languages change. Clearly, the t didn't use to be silent. *shrug* Not that I listen to any form of audible media often *g* enough to notice.
--Mel
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: It's not silent when I say it.
But then, comfortable and vegetable often have four sylables when I speak.
(He's a Utahan, folks, so cut him some slack.)
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
I don't say the t. We need some IPA in here, stat.
Posted by Valentine014 (Member # 5981) on :
Huh. The website for IPA is actually very interesting. *returns to site*
Posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged (Member # 7476) on :
From Dictionary.com
quote: Usage Note: During the 15th century English experienced a widespread loss of certain consonant sounds within consonant clusters, as the (d) in handsome and handkerchief, the (p) in consumption and raspberry, and the (t) in chestnut and often. In this way the consonant clusters were simplified and made easier to articulate. With the rise of public education and literacy and, consequently, people's awareness of spelling in the 19th century, sounds that had become silent sometimes were restored, as is the case with the t in often, which is now frequently pronounced. In other similar words, such as soften and listen, the t generally remains silent.
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
I've never dropped the "t." m-w.com lists both pronunciations.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Both pronunciations are valid.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
I don't say the "t" in soften, often, listen.
And "vegetables" has four syllables when I say it -- VEH-jeh-tubbles.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
:hums 'Orphan Boy,' from Pirates of Penzance:
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
Vegables, no?
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
Jewlery irks me, too. It's jewelry, dangit.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
I don't say the t in listen, but I think I do in often. Then again, I go off of what I heard growing up, so *shrugs* Blame my teachers.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:(He's a Utahan, folks, so cut him some slack.)
No I'm not.
Neither were my parents, nor their parents.
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
What amuses me is that the people from the Pittsburgh area cannot pronounce an "l" at the end of a word. It gets turned into an "lw" with a mostly "w" sound. So my husband pronounces "owl" and "ow" nearly identically. Both of his parents are the same way.
At any rate, there are a lot of regional dialects. As long as we understand each other, why does it matter?
--Mel
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Brazilians do the exact same thing. "Brasil" sounds an awful lot like "Brasiw".
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
I don't mind regional dialects too much. What I dislike is when people with a heavy accent speak really fast. I find myself having to constantly ask them to repeat themselves, and I'm not hard of hearing or anything. Speak a little slower and I may understand the first time.
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
And Febyuary.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
I've found it's a lot easier to get through life if you don't let others' pronunciation bother you so much.
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
quote:The "t" is silent, people!
quote:And Febyuary
So, you're upset that people are pronouncing a "t" you think should be silent, and not pronouncing an "r" that you think shouldn't be silent?
All you're really saying is that people who don't talk like you are annoying.
--Mel
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
You know, that's a lesson that I think my Mario playing friends should learn. Half the time it comes out of my mouth Merio, I don't know why.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Not to mention, folks, that it is REE-al-tor, not REEL-a-ter. If it is your profession, you should know how to say it.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I think most the time I prounounce the "t" in often. I might leave it off occasionally, but not offin. Posted by Dr. Evil (Member # 8095) on :
My all time pet peeve, when "ask" is pronounced "aks".
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
That's my way.
Posted by Nell Gwyn (Member # 8291) on :
I say "offen", but if the "t" were pronounced in it by a British person, it wouldn't bother me at all. But to me it sounds pretentious in an American accent.
I used to say "in-ter-est-ing" all the time instead of "in-tris-ting", which was pointed out to me as unusual. I've gotten lazy with that one. And my best friend teases me for lightly pronouncing the "th" in "clothes" - he firmly contends that it's meant to be pronounced "close". I disagree. Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
Anyone else find I and l confusing when in sans serif, or whatever this font is? In case you didn't know, that was a capital i and a lowercase L.
I'm so clueless that it took me a while to realize that theCrowsWife was talking about words ending in L, not words ending in i. I even looked at her examples, not realizing they were examples but thinking they were evidence of yet another pronunciation oddity.
Silly me.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nell Gwyn: And my best friend teases me for lightly pronouncing the "th" in "clothes" - he firmly contends that it's meant to be pronounced "close". I disagree.
Meant to be? That's sort of hard to argue. It's not like someone invented the word and decided how everyone should pronounce it. The dictionary shows that his pronunciation is more common, though.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
I pronounce clothes more like cloze. Close makes me think of the soft s sound at the end, but I suppose it can also be pronounced like cloze. So never mind...
I think in-ter-est-ing when I spell it out, and it's gotten to the point where I don't know what is the correct way to pronounce it.
I have a similar problem with words like incidentally. I don't know if I'm supposed to spell it incidently or incidentally--and I don't know exactly how I'm supposed to pronounce it either. I'm sure I used to. But I forgot.
I used to pronounce across like acrosst, until a friend of mine made a point about how much that annoyed him. (I wasn't the only one who did it.) So I broke myself of the habit and dropped the t.
I pronounce often as ofTen. I didn't know I had the option of pronouncing it offen. It sounds a little weird to me.
When I was a kid, I thought chaos was pronounced Chah-ose (Ch as in cherry) for years as a kid. I was an avid reader, so I came into contact with the word while reading way before I heard it (or rather before I heard it and realized what it was) out loud. And it was even longer before I learned what the word even meant. Somewhere around watching Jurassic Park.
-Katarain
Posted by Nell Gwyn (Member # 8291) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy:
quote:Originally posted by Nell Gwyn: And my best friend teases me for lightly pronouncing the "th" in "clothes" - he firmly contends that it's meant to be pronounced "close". I disagree.
Meant to be? That's sort of hard to argue. It's not like someone invented the word and decided how everyone should pronounce it. The dictionary shows that his pronunciation is more common, though.
Yep. He asserts that I am wrong. I, in turn, assert that he's being an idiot. This tends to be brought up when we have nothing better to argue about. We have a very loving relationship. Posted by Nell Gwyn (Member # 8291) on :
quote:Originally posted by Katarain: I pronounce clothes more like cloze.
Actually, that's what I really meant - "close" as in "close the door," not "close together". I'm just not used to writing phonetically. Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
quote:Originally posted by Katarain: I'm so clueless that it took me a while to realize that theCrowsWife was talking about words ending in L, not words ending in i. I even looked at her examples, not realizing they were examples but thinking they were evidence of yet another pronunciation oddity.
Heh. After I posted it, I wondered if that would be a problem. But then I thought, "Surely the examples will make it clear..."
It is difficult talking about phonetics without using the phonetic alphabet. But I'm too lazy to go look up codes for the special characters.
--Mel
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Katarain: I pronounce clothes more like cloze. Close makes me think of the soft s sound at the end, but I suppose it can also be pronounced like cloze. So never mind...
You want to hear something really mind-blowing? In linguistics, s is hard and z is soft. In other words, vocal cord vibration = soft, no vibration = hard.
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
You know what really bugs me in the media in the last decade is the fact that the only journalists anyone seems to hire these days all have speech impediments.
It drives me crazy to hear them all pronounce "str" words shtr. String. Not shtring. Christ, they all sound like Andy Gibb. I blame him for it and that stupid Puppet on a Shtring song of his.
Shtreet. Shtrong. It's driving me mad. Or, in my case, it already drove me mad!
Posted by Roseauthor (Member # 148) on :
COUPON- How did anyone get the pronuciation to be que.pon?
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
Ah. Cool. Hard s, then.
As for tv journalists, many of the women annoy me because they all sound like they have phlegm in their throats and have to swallow. Another way to describe it would be that they all have marbles on their tongues. I say just the women because I've never noticed this from a male tv journalist.
Posted by Kettricken (Member # 8436) on :
I’ve always said often, and it never occurred to me to not pronounce the t.
Regional differences in pronunciation are always something that gets argued about (light heartedly) when groups from different areas get together. I don’t know if you have as many regional variations as we do (UK), but with strong dialects English can become like different languages.
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy:
quote:Originally posted by Katarain: I pronounce clothes more like cloze. Close makes me think of the soft s sound at the end, but I suppose it can also be pronounced like cloze. So never mind...
You want to hear something really mind-blowing? In linguistics, s is hard and z is soft. In other words, vocal cord vibration = soft, no vibration = hard.
I'm used to "voiced" and "unvoiced" being used.
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
My partner pronounces "drawing" as "draw-ring". She's from Boston. It drives me up the wall.
Pahk the cah at Hahvahd Yahd is fine. But "drawring"? <shudder>
Posted by Gryphonesse (Member # 6651) on :
oh oh oh
Nuclear
(new-clee-ar) NOT (new-que-lar)
Mispronunciation of this sends me into FITS. I can't watch Presidential addresses. If I could spit venom at the TV when they say this, I would.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
All tv news presenters should have clipped BBC accents and dark suits. It would make the world a happier place.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by starLisa: I'm used to "voiced" and "unvoiced" being used.
Those are the more technical terms, and they are more often used within the linguistic community. Hard and soft are layman's terms. They're more likely to be seen in a dictionary pronunciation guide and things of that nature.
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
quote:All you're really saying is that people who don't talk like you are annoying.
Seems to me that accent-based prejudice (which I am not accusing anyone here of) is strong precisely because it isn't recognized.
I relate. Some things sound affected to me, and thus annoying. But they aren't really affected; they're just how people talk. But, being a Southerner, I know how people pre-judge based on accents, and say, "I have no accent," which means, "I talk the way I talk, and everyone else should do the same."
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
ElJay can be confusing with the i-L business. I added in my dictionary that it is occasionally mistaken to be "eijay" (e, i & j being capitals, of course).
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: You want to hear something really mind-blowing? In linguistics, s is hard and z is soft. In other words, vocal cord vibration = soft, no vibration = hard.
In my head, that seems like it should be the other way around, ie, hard = vibration, soft = no vibration. But I'll just stick with voiced/unvoiced for now.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
And I don't think I really have an accent. It's not realy Aussie of any of the thre kinds, not RP, not Ireland, not Yorkshire, DEFINITELY not Kiwi nor SA. Poms think I'm a local, Aussies know I'm Aussie, Israelis know I'm no American, Americans think I'm English, people from London think I'm from Oxford and people from Oxford think I'm from London. South-Africans can detect I'm not English but can't really tell I'm Aussie.
I'm a soft type of centralised Home-County with Aussie affection.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
I agree, kojabu. It made no sense to me at first, either. I believe the reasoning is that vowels are soft and consonants are hard, so a consonant that is voiced is softer because it is more vowel-like.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
From Webster's New International Dictionary, Second Edition (Unabridged)
quote:often (ofen) see note below
Note below reads: The pronunciation often, until recently considered as more or less illiterate, is not uncommon among the educated in some sections, and is often used in singing.
I say ofen. Always. What really bothers me about this is that I find people overpronouncing the t as if to point out to people that don't pronounce it that they're wrong. And more recently, I've heard people doing the same thing with WeDnesday.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
I say WeDnesday when I'm being silly, but only then. What I really don't like is when you say something to someone one way and they repronounce the word back to you and overemphasize the change. I was working in a DQ and someone asked what yogurt flavors we had. I replied Strawberry and Butter PeCAHN. They said back, I'll have a Butter PeCAN, like the way I said it was wrong.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote: I replied Strawberry and Butter PeCAHN. They said back, I'll have a Butter PeCAN, like the way I said it was wrong.
Yeah, that would be irksome.
I think Porter had a grade-school teacher who treated him like an idiot for not pronouncing it "peCAN".
To me, that would be like a teacher getting on my case for saying "creek" instead of "crik".
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
There is no "right" way to say pecan, though. Linky Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Pee can is an acceptable pronunciation, but it's regional. I have a hard time saying picahn, but then again, I Mahm, and Tahm, instead of Mom and Tom. I also say wou-ter (like the ou in your) instead of wah-ter. And that's because my best friend was from Virginia and she pronounced it that way.
My worst accents indicators are on mahm and tahm though and that's a Chicago things. Or upper mid-west in general.
And people who say they don't have an accent, are the people from the mid-west. The whole non-accent you hear on TV is the no accent of this country. That's my opinion anyway. (And not the hick, country mid-west, but suburban mid-west.)
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Is there a right and a wrong way to say "creek" then? Is that just a matter of regionality?
I have a problem with someone telling me that my regional way of pronouncing is "wrong".
Of course, I pronounce warm to rhyme with arm, farm, charm, smarm, and alarm. Makes perfect sense to me, but apparently the dictionary disagrees.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
quote:What I really don't like is when you say something to someone one way and they repronounce the word back to you and overemphasize the change.
Yeah, that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. But there are other ways of emphasizing it. One woman I know always looks me straight in the eye and nods her head when she says "ofTen." As if to remind me that she is aware of my "mispronunciation" and is making an effort to correct me. (She also insists that writing in the passive voice is always more "professional" than using any sort of personal pronoun)
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Hm, I give warm more of a woarm type pronunciation.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
Back to hard'n'soft business, there are a few thoughts regarding Hebrew.
In Temani pronunciation, a hard gimmel is "j" as in "Jon" but a soft one is "g" as in "gamble". What one can learn from parallelism is that the "original" hard sound of gimmel is "g" as in "gamble" (unvoiced "k") and that the soft "g" was a "gh" sound, like a voiced version of plat (sp?)-Deutsch "ch"; by that I mean the soft, "h"-similar sound, not the trilling "kh" like the Hebrew "Chet".
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
quote:She also insists that writing in the passive voice is always more "professional" than using any sort of personal pronoun.
Wow, I've always been told not to use passive voice, like ever.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I guess it is supposed to be pronounced like "form". I can't think of any other words that truly rhyme with it, though. Though "war" is an example of the "ar" being pronounced that way. I certainly don't pronounce "war" to rhyme with "star, far, bar, mar, tar, par, jar, car, and Lieutenenat Yar."
English don't make no sense.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
You got that right bev!
We really need fewer vowels.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by kojabu: Wow, I've always been told not to use passive voice, like ever.
Good for you. Don't let anyone corrupt you.
quote:We really need fewer vowels.
Or a larger alphabet and a phonetic spelling system.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Oh I never said I was good at not using passive voice, but I try.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I try to always point out to my children (well my son, since he is the only one really old enough) how bizarre and weird and rule-breaking English is so that he will appreciate the differences between languages. I see so many ignorant children/adults balk at the rule-breaking or bizarre rules in other languages. It makes me laugh.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
There are times when it's normal and good to use the passive voice. Too many people, especially in the business world, think that everything should be passive. It's just like Calvin of Calvin & Hobbes said: "I realized that the purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning, and inhibit clarity. With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog!"
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:(He's a Utahan, folks, so cut him some slack.)
No I'm not.
Neither were my parents, nor their parents.
*adjusts Porter's sarcasmometer*
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kayla: Pee can is an acceptable pronunciation, but it's regional. I have a hard time saying picahn, but then again, I Mahm, and Tahm, instead of Mom and Tom.
I'm from Chicago, too. How else would you pronounce Mom and Tom? To me, it rhymes with bomb and calm and psalm and cd-rom.
I always laugh when people pronounce the second vowel in Chicago as shi-KAH-go. I say shi-KAW-go. And BAW-ston; not BAH-ston.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Is that baw that rhymes with raw?
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold: She also insists that writing in the passive voice is always more "professional" than using any sort of personal pronoun
<blink> If she tells you that you should use the passive voice, ask her if she doesn't mean that the passive voice should be used.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Warm rhymes with form, and dorm, and such. Clearly, "Worm" is already taken and it sounds like "Werm", or I suppose "Wirm" and "Wyrm". EDIT: Oh, and Wurm, too.
Anything but "Worm".
I love the way English makes no sense! Am I the only one?
Also, what exactly is the passive voice?
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Instead of saying something like
I ate the apple.
passive voice would say
The apple was eaten by me.
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
I've done this one before, but what do the following words have in common?
Buy Catch Fight Seek Teach Think Wreak
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
kojabu: Isn't that rather the long way around of saying something?
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Wow, I use it whenever I feel like it, depending on the sentence. I think.
Eh.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
quote:<blink> If she tells you that you should use the passive voice, ask her if she doesn't mean that the passive voice should be used.
I'm not sure she knows what the passive voice is. It's just that she insists that we should never use personal pronouns, and all the examples she gives are in the passive voice.
i.e. Instead of "I observed the student," we're supposed to say "The student was observed."
But yeah, I should try that somehow.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I was told never to use "I" in a formal essay, e.g. "I think that..." or "In this essay I shall examine..." I think that what was probably what your teacher was getting at.
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
starLisa, I'm thinking you pronounce Mom more like mawm than mahm. It's kind of hard to explain. It's more of a back of the throat/nasal kind of thing. But listen to Joan Cusak talk. It's like that. For a lot of the words, you don't notice, but then every once in a while, bam.
You know, rereading your response, I'm not sure how you say any of those words. Since I say them all the same, and I don't know which way you say them, I can't figure it out.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote:I've done this one before, but what do the following words have in common?
Buy Catch Fight Seek Teach Think Wreak
Their past tense all rhymes. Posted by Irregardless (Member # 8529) on :
I'm an engineer, and we never used first person in technical writing (i.e., "I calibrated the meter and we measured the flow."); passive voice is practically all that's left to work with. ("The flow was measured with a GX-K84 volumetric meter...")
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: My worst accents indicators are on mahm and tahm though and that's a Chicago things.
Hm. How else would you pronounce "Mom" and "Tom?"
They rhyme with "bomb" and "prom," right?
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
There's a difference between the typical American pronunciation and the Canadian pronunciation (and apparently Chicago, too). I don't remember the technical language to describe it because I was never very good at vowels, but think of trying to pronounce something between "mom" and "mam" and you'll get pretty close to the way Canadians and people from Chicago would pronounce it. That's true of all of the words with the "ah" sound I believe.
--Mel
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
I say "off-tin", and I also say "Add-dress" instead of "Ajress".
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
quote: I was told never to use "I" in a formal essay, e.g. "I think that..." or "In this essay I shall examine..." I think that what was probably what your teacher was getting at.
No, this was for our personal observation journal. We wrote observation reports separately. And she wasn't my teacher.
"This is not a diary, it's a professional journal." She also says don't use "he" or "she" when referring to a student. It's always "the student." To refer to ourselves we use "the teacher." This is especially confusing when you're observing another teacher. Then it's "the observing teacher" and the "classroom teacher." Before I was certified it was "the teacher candidate."
Still, all of her examples (that I can remember) were in the passive voice. And some of them were ridiculously convoluted. But it was "professional."
By the way, I don't object to the passive voice when it makes sense. I think it's just as bad to say "NEVER use the passive voice." But I've seen engineers use it to the point of the ridiculous also. You just have to read what you've written and see if it's understandable.
BTW, Irregardless: My previous career was in industrial gases. I wrote a lot of reports and memos on calibrating flows.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by beverly:
quote:I've done this one before, but what do the following words have in common?
Buy Catch Fight Seek Teach Think Wreak
Their past tense all rhymes.
Not wreak. Its past tense is wreaked, not wrought. See the usage note.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by theCrowsWife: There's a difference between the typical American pronunciation and the Canadian pronunciation (and apparently Chicago, too). I don't remember the technical language to describe it because I was never very good at vowels, but think of trying to pronounce something between "mom" and "mam" and you'll get pretty close to the way Canadians and people from Chicago would pronounce it. That's true of all of the words with the "ah" sound I believe.
--Mel
It sounds like you're referring to the Northern Cities Shift. But according to everything I've read, it's not happening in Canada. It stretches from Syracuse, New York, to Minneapolis, Minnesota.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by starLisa: I always laugh when people pronounce the second vowel in Chicago as shi-KAH-go. I say shi-KAW-go.
Then you would probably laugh at the entire population of Chicago. Maybe you should tell them they're pronouncing the name of their city wrong.
Seriously, would you laugh at an Englishman for pronouncing something different? What about an Australian? How about someone who didn't speak English as their first language? What makes a regional accent within the United States different from a regional account from without the United States?
Posted by andi330 (Member # 8572) on :
Actually, if you check a dictionary the "t" in often is supposed to be silent. The change began with Princess Di, who pronounced it that way all the time and it's grown from there.
Note: this is not to say anything derogatory about Princess Di. Also, I am sure that there are many other people who pronounced it that way, but at the time, she was the famous person who did.
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold: BTW, Irregardless: My previous career was in industrial gases. I wrote a lot of reports and memos on calibrating flows.
You didn't just say "irregardless", did you?
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy:
quote:Originally posted by starLisa: I always laugh when people pronounce the second vowel in Chicago as shi-KAH-go. I say shi-KAW-go.
Then you would probably laugh at the entire population of Chicago. Maybe you should tell them they're pronouncing the name of their city wrong.
You must not know many Chicagoans. Most of us actually do pronounce it shi-KAW-go. It's other people who aren't from here who more often say shi-KAH-go. Some of them even pronounce Florida as FLAHR-da.
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: Seriously, would you laugh at an Englishman for pronouncing something different? What about an Australian? How about someone who didn't speak English as their first language? What makes a regional accent within the United States different from a regional account from without the United States?
<shrug> I didn't say I laughed out loud. That'd be rude.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
quote:You didn't just say "irregardless", did you?
Yes, I was addressing the poster whose username is Irregardless.
I recently ran into an interesting thing about "irregardless" (the word, not the person). If you read "Li'l Abner" comics from the 1950's, you'll see that Al Capp used the word "irregardless" as an indication of Li'l Abner's (and other characters) lack of education. He used it a lot, so I have to wonder how much that contributed to today's usage of the word.
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold:
quote:You didn't just say "irregardless", did you?
Yes, I was addressing the poster whose username is Irregardless.
My bad.
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold:
quote:You didn't just say "irregardless", did you?
Yes, I was addressing the poster whose username is Irregardless.
I recently ran into an interesting thing about "irregardless" (the word, not the person). If you read "Li'l Abner" comics from the 1950's, you'll see that Al Capp used the word "irregardless" as an indication of Li'l Abner's (and other characters) lack of education. He used it a lot, so I have to wonder how much that contributed to today's usage of the word.
Pop culture can do things like that. I heard a story that the pronounciation of Caribbean that sounds like ke-RIH-bee-in came about because there was a popular song that mentioned the Caribbean, and in order to fit the rhythm of the song, the singer changed the pronunciation.
Normalcy, which used to be normality, apparently came into existence in a presidential speech ("a return to normalcy"). Nowadays, the word normality is rarely used outside of chemistry.
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy:
quote:Originally posted by theCrowsWife: There's a difference between the typical American pronunciation and the Canadian pronunciation (and apparently Chicago, too). I don't remember the technical language to describe it because I was never very good at vowels, but think of trying to pronounce something between "mom" and "mam" and you'll get pretty close to the way Canadians and people from Chicago would pronounce it. That's true of all of the words with the "ah" sound I believe.
--Mel
It sounds like you're referring to the Northern Cities Shift. But according to everything I've read, it's not happening in Canada. It stretches from Syracuse, New York, to Minneapolis, Minnesota.
*shrug* It was a Canadian professor who told me that Canadians do that. Unless I'm remembering him wrong. That's certainly possible; it's been a few years since I took that class.
Linguistics is fun, but I was always better at syntax than phonetics/phonology.
--Mel
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by starLisa: You must not know many Chicagoans. Most of us actually do pronounce it shi-KAW-go. It's other people who aren't from here who more often say shi-KAH-go. Some of them even pronounce Florida as FLAHR-da.
All the Chicagoans I've known (which, granted, is not very many) have pronounced it with the aforementioned Northern Cities Shift, so it either has the vowel in hot or is slightly further forward, about halfway between hot and hat.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
There's is definately a certain amount of "a" in the word "Mom" as pronounced in Ontario, at least...
"Mahm", basically, as opposed to using the more narrow and closed-mouth "Mom" sound.
I'm sure there are plenty of dialects all over the world that pronounce the "t" and the Princess Diana wasn't the first person to do it. In fact since the "t" is there it probably was put there for a reason.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by starLisa: Normalcy, which used to be normality, apparently came into existence in a presidential speech ("a return to normalcy"). Nowadays, the word normality is rarely used outside of chemistry.
It wasn't coined by a president, but it appears to have been popularized by one. But it's not really accurate to say that it "used to be" normality. Normality precedes normalcy by only about a decade, according to the OED.
quote:Originally posted by theCrowsWife: *shrug* It was a Canadian professor who told me that Canadians do that. Unless I'm remembering him wrong. That's certainly possible; it's been a few years since I took that class.
Interesting. I don't know enough Canadians to say if he's right or not, unfortunately. Most of the Canadians I know are from Alberta, and they don't have very strong accents. I do know a girl from Ontario, and I've never heard that vowel shift from her or her brothers. Hmm.
Of course, it could be that it's only recently started to spread into Canada, so the surveys and data I've seen aren't current enough to show that.
Edit: Aha! That's interesting, Teshi. Now if you could just post some sound clips of yourself so I could actually hear it . . .
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I would, but I have no sound recording facilities. Also, I may be wrong about the sound, but all the time I've been around in Canada it's been "mahm" and "bahmb" etc.
I'll try and describe the sound. It's not a bright sound, it's a dark "ah", like an opera singer singing on the vowel "a". Like the sound in "farm" only without the "r".
You might want to ask another Canadian, too.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
That description sounds exactly like the standard, non-shifted a sound. I think the difference you're noticing is that in North America, this sound is pronounced without rounding the lips at all, while in Britain, it is pronounced with rounded lips. Lip-rounding enhances the backness of a sound, so an unrounded vowel will sound a little brighter.
Here's a vowel chart. In Britain, mom and bomb are pronounced with an open back rounded vowel (bottom right corner). In North America it's open back unrounded (to the left of that). In the Northern Cities Shift, it's closer to open front unrounded (bottom left corner). The vowels in cat and hat are near-open front unrounded.
[ September 21, 2005, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: Jon Boy ]
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Ah- so it's not bright enough to be this shifted vowel. It feels bright to me, because I am going from the British "bomb" sound (Mom is usually Mum so it's not a good example).
I think it's certainly approaching such a "a" sound though, in some people's accents.
Posted by solo (Member # 3148) on :
What about the word film?
I used to work at a photo lab and it was surprising to me how many people pronounced it fill 'em.
Also, I don't pronounce the 't' in often.
Albertans have accents. Especially those from southern Alberta. It is just that their accent is a U.S. accent. They sound a lot like the people I know from Washington State.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
Albertans have Canadian accents, but they may not be the same Canadian accents as people from Ontario have.
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy:
quote:Originally posted by starLisa: You must not know many Chicagoans. Most of us actually do pronounce it shi-KAW-go. It's other people who aren't from here who more often say shi-KAH-go. Some of them even pronounce Florida as FLAHR-da.
All the Chicagoans I've known (which, granted, is not very many) have pronounced it with the aforementioned Northern Cities Shift, so it either has the vowel in hot or is slightly further forward, about halfway between hot and hat.
Well, a strong city-type accent in Chicago (which I don't have) is sort of the stereotypical mobster kind of thing. It'd be shi-KAWWW-go. And they turn all their "th" sounds into "d". Da Bulls. Da Mayor.
Most natives I know (including me) don't do it to that extreme, and can pronounce "th" just fine. The accent you seem to be describing sounds like more of a midwest twang. Kansas, maybe. Even Wisconsin.
Think of the vowel in the word "form". It's a very light "aw" sound (at least in Chicago <grin>). That's what I always heard growing up, and what I generally hear now.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Hm. I'm trying to remember the Chicagoans I've known, and I can only come up with one, it seems. But he very definitely said "Chicago" with a vowel between cat and cot, which means that he had both the cot-caught merger and the Northern Cities Shift. That doesn't really make sense, though, because apparently most people in the Upper Midwest pronounce cot and caught differently. He must've just been weird or something.
Solo: I didn't mean that Albertans have no accent, just that it's closer to a general American accent (whatever that may be) than the stereotypical Canadian accent. There are still some distinctly Canadian features, though, from what I've heard.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
What's the stereotypical Canadian accent?
Posted by solo (Member # 3148) on :
I totally agree that they (I have been told that I still sound like I am from B.C.) are much closer to U.S. accents than the rest of Canada.
I think the stereotypical Canadian accent is definitely not coming from the west. Think Bob and Doug McKenzie.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
North Cities Shift? Wow, is that just pretensious or is it something big?
I wonder what my accent is. Maybe I should get one... Say, Pakistani? The one way to tell a Pakistani is if he or she talks about getting "wuckets".
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Bob and Doug McKenzie! I haven't heard anything by them in years!
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
Teshi, watch Strange Brew and you'll know exactly what it is.
The first time I saw it I thought the actors were Americans pretending to be Canadians because the accent was so much more extreme than my Canadian relatives' accents. Like, they did all the same things but much more often and much more obviously.
Typical Canadian things are pronouncing the first syllable of pasta and Mazda like gas and has, respectively. Also saying eh a lot and saying out and about funny--though their pronunciation is not "oot and aboot." It's actually closer to "oat and aboat," but even that isn't quite right.
Then there are vocabulary differences: "chesterfield" for "sofa," "toque" for "beanie," etc.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Two of my housemates are Canadian, one of them definately says pasta like that, as well as java and drama. It always catches me off guard.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Typical Canadian things are pronouncing the first syllable of pasta and Mazda like gas and has, respectively.
Yes. And "ageen" for "again."
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Well, I was born in Chicago, spent some time near Cleavland and most of my teens in St. Louis. The only time my husband makes fun of my accent is on words like Mom and Tom, and those are usually a reflexive thing. Like when I say something about my brother "Tahm". I don't generally say the word Tom in my daily life, or mom for that matter either. So when it does come out, he laughs. You'd think after 17 years, he'd be over it, but he's not.
I'm perfectly capable of saying them correctly, and most often do (no t in often) however, when I'm relaxed or just not thinking, it just kind of pops out. Kind of like a how some people speak perfect English till they are hanging out with friends or get really upset then start swearing in Spanish. You know.
I'd be perfectly able to say hi to Tom Davidson without anyone even noticing. Well, if I were able to meet Tom Davidson, I could say his name without raising eyebrows.
Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brinestone: Then there are vocabulary differences: "chesterfield" for "sofa," "toque" for "beanie," etc.
Really? A chesterfield is a sofa? I thought it was an armoire or sideboard or something like that.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
You know, I've never heard anyone talk about "chesterfields" in my life! It must be an eastern thing or an older thing. "Couch" I believe is preferred, or "sofa". I use "setee" when I forget the other words, but I'm not sure if that's used in Canada.
The other words must be regional accents except for the "Pasta/Mazda/Drama/Java" thing, which I believe is more of a
pasta, Mazda, drahma, jahva thing.
But isn't the italian way of saying pasta the short 'a' way?
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Chesterfield:
quote: n. A single- or double-breasted overcoat, usually with concealed buttons and a velvet collar. Chiefly Northern California & Canada. A sofa.
[After a 19th-century earl of Chesterfield.] Regional Note: Chesterfield, a term for a sofa, especially a large one with upholstered arms, was probably brought down from Canada, where it is common. In the United States, it was largely limited to the trade region of San Francisco in northern California. According to Craig M. Carver in American Regional Dialects, the word probably comes from the name of a 19th-century earl of Chesterfield and originally referred “specifically to a couch with upright armrests at either end.” It appears to have come into use in Canada around 1903 and in northern California at about the same time.
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
I always like divan and davenport myself. Gram had a davenport. I always thought it was the three-season patio, but apparently, it was the couch on the patio. Who knew?
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Well, it's gone out of use now, at least in Southern/Central Ontario.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
quote:But isn't the italian way of saying pasta the short 'a' way?
Nope, it's long. The e sounds like a short a in Italian and the i sounds like the way we pronounce e.
Ah, Eh, Ee, Oh, Oo.
Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
My grandmother always called her couch the "daveno" (I have no idea how you would spell it) and I've never heard anyone else use that word. I knew that divan and davenport were used for couch, but they seem very strange to me, and I've never known anyone who actually used them. Davenport sounds like it should be a city in New England or something.
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
My partner says "aunt" to rhyme with "font". I say it the same as "ant". She insists that the spelling proves her right. So I ask her what you call a piece of paper our daughter has colored on, and the argument ends.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
What do you call it?
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Teshi: But isn't the italian way of saying pasta the short 'a' way?
The problem with discussing phonetics in English on a message board is that we have five vowel characters to represent more than a dozen distinct sounds. The letter a is especially problematic because it can represent seven or so different sounds in English. The short-long distinction just doesn't cut it, especially when one speaker may have a vowel shift. I think you all should just learn IPA so we can be sure that we understand each other. Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
starLisa, what is it called?
I have an "ant"ie Jo and and an "ant"ie Eve, but refer to any third person aunt as aunt/font.
"You know, 'Ant'ie Jo, my friend's aunt(font) gives us candy."
It's just damned weird.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
I'm learning IPA! I don't like phonetics all that much though.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Yeah, I should really get on learning that phonics stuff, because, for example, saying that aunt (ahnt) sounds the same as font is ludicrous to me, although I know what you mean...
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by kojabu: What do you call it?
A drawing. But she says "draw-ring"
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
Oh. I thought you were saying it ended in aunt and rhymed with ant.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:A drawing. But she says "draw-ring"
I thought that's what you might be getting at . . . My parents are from the Chicago area and Brooklyn. Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
Huh. Small world. I grew up in Skokie (until I was 9) and then in Highland Park. I went to high school at Ida Crown. I wonder if I know your Chicago relatives.
Btw, did you know anyone from Versaware in Jerusalem? I worked there for about three years, until it folded.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by starLisa: Huh. Small world. I grew up in Skokie (until I was 9) and then in Highland Park. I went to high school at Ida Crown. I wonder if I know your Chicago relatives.
Btw, did you know anyone from Versaware in Jerusalem? I worked there for about three years, until it folded.
I don't have many relatives left in the Chicago area. The few I do have live in Schaumburg. (Oh unless you count R' Stein and his wife. They're cousins of cousins.)
My mom grew up in Downer's Grove.
I assume Versaware was a software developer, but I don't think I even know of them.
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
And another attempt at Jewish geography bites the dust. <grin>
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Davenport sounds like it should be a city in New England or something.
I believe that the name comes from the Davenport Furniture Company, which operated first in Boston and then in Cambridge in the mid to late 19th century.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Davenport is a city in Iowa, on the mighty Mississippi River.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Now, I always figured that "drawers" as in "a chest of drawers" is pronounced "draws". That's the only way I've heard people around here say it. But when I visited Kansas earlier this summer, I was actually laughed at because of this pronounciation. A "draw", I was told, was a low-lying area on the prairie. A "draw-er" is what I am keeping my socks in.
My family went to Kansas for a family wedding. Straight off the plane, we went into town to the Western Wear outfitters to buy ourselves "cowboy" hats and boots. (We were corrected by the folk who work there. It is not PC to call it "cowboy boots"; they are "Western boots"). So all my New Yorkish family were sitting around the ranch in our hats and boots (my brother even had a vest and neckerchief). Some other out-of-town guests arrived later that evening and came up to us "You must be from the groom's side -- Kansas folk". As soon as we opened our mouths to talk to them, they burst out laughing. We might dress Western, but we tawk pyew-ah Noo Yawk.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Where in Kansas were you? I can confirm that in NE Kansas, in any case, "drawer" is indeed pronounced "dror" (or in some cases "djror"), but I can also confirm that not everyone wears cowboy boots or hats.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester: We might dress Western, but we tawk pyew-ah Noo Yawk.
Oh, you pretty much do. You have a little of the slightly modified accent of someone who lives in NJ, but the NY accent is still there.
And it's a "draw-er" most places other than the Tri-State area, yes. (Betcha say "locka" too, doncha? As in, "Meiya, put the soder in the locka.")
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
We were just outside Kansas City, in Lawrence KS. We stayed on a ranch, with real buffalos, and real cowboys. In fact, the vest and neckerchief that by brother was sporting were lent to him by a real live cowboy, so they were bona fide!
And, rivka, I speak perfectly normally. Same as everyone else (at least from around here). In fact, I have shed the "worst" of my New York accent. What you were hearing was the "improved" version.
And folk who are not from New York, think that a "New York Accent" is one thing. Genuine New Yorkers, though, are able to distinguish Brooklyn from Bronx from Manhattan, Jewish Ancestry from Italian Ancestry from Irish Ancestry, Black from White from Hispanic, Upper Class from Lower Class. It is much more nuanced than you might think.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I know that! And I still have a bit of the central NJ accent, but only on a few words.
And never tell my dad he sounds like he comes from the Bronx . . . although watching him react is kinda fun. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I'm from Lawrence--lived the first 30 years of my life there. Was the groom from there also? Where was this ranch?
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
The Circle S Ranch in Lawrence Kansas is where all the out-of-towners stayed and where the wedding was. The groom and most of his family are from Missouri, just outside of Kansas City. Name of "West".
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
How strange--I've never heard of that place, but it's actually pretty close to a commune I lived on for a little while in the early 90s.
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Wow, I lived in Lawrence for years, and I have cousins in Schaumburg. Weird.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Cousins in Schlaumburg? That IS weird! Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
You're mocking me, aren't you.
Posted by Astaril (Member # 7440) on :
I've yet to determine exactly what a typical PEI accent is. It seems to be a cross between rural Northern-ish Ontario farmer speech, and Irish descent Newfie speech. Sort of a faster, muffled Bob and Doug.
I would also like to jump in very late and agree that in my opinion the Northern Cities shift "mahm and Tahm" is *not* present in Canada (at least the eastern half). We may say "mom and Tom" with slightly more of an A sound than Americans, but certainly not to the same degree as people from Chicago or Michigan, for example.
And as for the original point of this thread, I've always said ofTen. It seems perfectly normal and unpretentious to me.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kayla: You're mocking me, aren't you.
Well, just a little, and without malicious intent. I hope you're not offended. If you are, please know that I intended no offense, just a little humor.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Then there are vocabulary differences: "chesterfield" for "sofa," "toque" for "beanie," e
I have a friend who is a Minnesota expat who always refers to his Sofa as a "Davenport". It took me forever to figure out what he was talking about but other people from the midwest and Canadia all seemed to know.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
I like the google ad at the bottom of the page:
quote:Hyundai Accent Reviews, Ratings, Free Price Quotes Research Hyundai at Edmunds.com
I wonder what that accent sounds like.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
If we knew, maybe it would finally answer the question: How do you pronounce "Hyundai?"
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
I pronounce "drawer" droar. (One syllable, rhymes with "roar.")
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold: If we knew, maybe it would finally answer the question: How do you pronounce "Hyundai?"
In the ads that I hear on the radio, it rhymes with "Sunday" -- HUN-day.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I say "aunt" correctly, but I'm quite possibly the only person I know in this area who does.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
We all say "aunt" correctly. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
That's odd. I don't say those two words the same at ALL. The second one has three syllables, just for starters.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
rivka
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Sorry Tante. I considered using a , but decided against it.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
No apologies are necessary, Kayla. It's just that a couple of times here, when I meant no offense, members have let me know that they felt attacked. I just wanted you (and everyone) to know that it is not my intention to attack.
But, oh, how I enjoy a good mockery... <-- the winky graemlin lets everyone know that I'm harmless.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I say "aunt" correctly, but I'm quite possibly the only person I know in this area who does.
Approximately 75 percent of Americans pronounce aunt like ant. I'd say you're one of the few people who still says it wrong. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
You know, every time I see the subject line of this thread, I hear George Harrison singing "The pain that often lingers," with his incredibly clear ennunciation of the "t" in the word "often". I love Beware of Darkness, but I'm actually starting to get a little sick of hearing it, or at least that line of it.
![[No No]](graemlins/nono.gif)
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As in, "Meiya, put the soder in the locka.")
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rivka