Kid on the way to the gym pulled off his outer shirt to reveal a different one underneath. AN altercation ensued.
"The undershirt the white student wore had a confederate flag on the front with the words "Keep it flying." On the back, a cartoon depicted a group of hooded Klansmen standing outside a church, waving to two others who had just pulled away in a car reading "Just married."
"Two black men in nooses were being dragged behind."
The best(?) part of this article is this quote from the kid in question:
"I'm not racist or anything," he said. "It's just, some people I hate, some people I don't get along with. And black people just happen to be the ones because they think they're better than everyone else."
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
You know you're in for an interesting statement when it begins with "I'm not racist or anything". I don't think I've ever heard words to that effect said when they weren't directly followed by an incredibly racist remark. It's as though the people who say this know that being a racist is supposed to be a bad thing, and they know that they themselves are not bad people, so their prejudice against an entire group of people based on their race must be something other than racism.
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
I'm not racist or anything.
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
He's not racist, yet he hates black people. He hates black people, yet... "The 18-year-old said he has friends who are black, and he said he does not think they would be mad at him"
I think this kid has some sanity issues to deal with also.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:I'm not racist or anything.
You're not anything? Everyone is something.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Hey, and he's enlisted in the Marines! Just who I want representing my country overseas. Sure hope he doesn't get sent on a peacekeeping mission in Africa.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:You know you're in for an interesting statement when it begins with "I'm not racist or anything".
Yup. It's kinda like when people say "I'm an adult." or "I have a sense of humor."
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
quote:You're not anything? Everyone is something.
I'm someone.
quote:Yup. It's kinda like when people say "I'm an adult." or "I have a sense of humor."
or, I'm not stupid.
Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
This kid is really stupid, but y'all already knew that.
An for mph, I enjoy being my inner child. Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:Hey, and he's enlisted in the Marines!
That's actually the best thing for him. Once he has some black guys in his unit, he'll realize they're just like him, except tanner. One thing the armed forces quickly eradicated was racism. The bonds formed by severe mental, emotion, and physical stress easily transcend race.
And actually, from what I've been told, Africans hate black people. I don't have an first hand experience with that, being neither black nor african, but more than one person who's been there told me that.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
or, Trust me.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
Incidently, hating some black people doesn't make you racist. Hating some black people because they are black, or because blackness inherently implies some bad characteristic to you, makes you racist.
Posted by 0range7Penguin (Member # 7337) on :
This kid was lucky they didnt really jump him. With that shirt I think getting off with a punch in the nose was getting off easy
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
quote:"It's just, some people I hate, some people I don't get along with. And black people just happen to be the ones because they think they're better than everyone else."
If he is actually not racist, then that last sentence was worded really really really poorly. Maybe he could have said, "and some of the people I don't get a long with just so happen to be black people." At least that would imply that that he doesn't hate all black people or that his hatred is limited to black people.
So maybe he's not racist. He's still really really stupid. I think a five year old would understand why a shirt like that would be offensive.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
quote:Everyone is something
Speak for yourself.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Mack is married.
*flees*
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
You know what, I'm an adult, I have a sense of humor, I'm not stupid, AND I'm not a racist or anything.
You got a problem with that?
Well, do you?
<melee ensues>
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
<pause melee> You forgot "Trust me" <resume melee>
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Trust me...
<rejoins fracas>
Posted by Argus Skyhawk (Member # 471) on :
quote:Originally posted by Noemon: You know you're in for an interesting statement when it begins with "I'm not racist or anything". I don't think I've ever heard words to that effect said when they weren't directly followed by an incredibly racist remark.
quote: And if there's one thing I've learned in life, it's that the surest way of identifying a multi-level marketing scheme is when you are told, "This is not a multi-level marketing scheme." It's the same as how when people begin a sentence with, "Now, I'm not a racist, but...," you can be certain you're about to hear something very racist, such as, "I'm not a racist, but I understand all people from Mongolia eat their young." (This also works for sentences beginning with, "I don't want to be rude" and "I don't mean to gossip.")
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
Or "No offense, but..."
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
My favorite example of this (that I've actually heard in person, with my own ears) has to be "Now, I ain't no racist or nothin', but I just can't get along with them damned Chinese. There's just somethin' about them."
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
"With all due respect...<insert disrespectful comment>"
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
I hate to interrupt this discussion, but haven't we lost sight of the topic here?
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Sure we have, Tante -- this is Hatrack afterall...
And I think we all probably agree that this was not only very dumb, but also racist.... so what more is there to say?
FG
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
I think that by the time people say "To make a long story short", it is far too late for that.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
It's going to be hard to find anyone who doesn't think that wearing that shirt was a completely stupid idea and very disrespectful to a lot of people, heck if I were student there I would have been offended by it and I'm not black.
I do agree, though, that this kid himself might be salvagable and the enlisting in the Marines gives me hope. Any area with high discipline where you have to depend on one another will help erase bigoted feelings. Fire and police are usually the same way, though it's not uncommon for them to split - they will wind up having no problem with people they work with, but still use disparaging language to refer to the members of the minority public they deal with.
My step-father was one of the most bigoted people I ever knew, and it was one reason my mother left him, honestly, it got to be too much to take. He used to tell me (as if passing on bits of wisdom) that there were three kinds of black people: First there were cops, like him. And they were okay, because they were cops. Then there were people who were "just black people" because they made attempts to lift themselves up and be better people through education or hard work and thirdly there were (insert epithet), and that was the vast majority of them and they just weren't worth anything.
Then, he would tell you he wasn't a racist because he went to a black doctor. But of course, that black doctor was in category number 2, so he was okay.
*shudder*
typing that brings back bad memories, let me tell ya
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
If you guys really want to get back on topic, fine...
How should the student have been punished? The shirt is protected by free speech, so the only rule he was breaking was the school's dress code, and that doesn't usually get much disciplinary action beyond changing clothes. Should both people in the fight be punished equally, or does one deserve more punishment than the other?
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
Belle, I hope that his ideas don't influence his job. It's especially worrisome because he's a cop.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
camus, he's not a cop any longer, he was fired years ago for something unrelated to racism - he stole something. Actually he stole many things. He even stole money from me, but that's a long story and not relevant to this discussion.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Any area with high discipline where you have to depend on one another will help erase bigoted feelings.
Well, I don't know. I know a couple of Marines that served in the Gulf War, and while they aren't racist toward the races that were represented in their companies, they are pretty horribly bigoted toward Arabs. If there had been people of Arabic descent in their companies I suspect that the split that you talk about would have occurred.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Most school dress codes include (or should) a caveat prohibiting clothes with slogans or images that are "potentially offensive or inappropriate for a learning environment." I would think this t-shirt would be covered under that. Dress code violations are usually covered under the school's rules/code of conduct, which is distributed to the students, and the penalties can range from staying in the office until your mother brings you a change of clothes to wearing gym clothes for the rest of the day and having the offensive item confiscated until the end of the year to ATS or suspension for repeat offenders. I think that's entirely appropriate and should be exercised at the school's discretion.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I agree, kq, I know my kids school handbooks include a clause like that in the dress code. Some schools go even further and say no shirts with any writing at all are allowed.
He should have had the shirt confiscated and given another t-shirt to wear for the day, or he should have been sent home on a one-day suspension. The punishment the school uses should be outlined in the school's policies.
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
I think he should be lynched... I mean, apparently he thinks lynchings are funny, so he'd be pleased to be providing so much humor, right?
(please note that I do not really think he should be lynched).
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
quote:(please note that I do not really think he should be lynched)
Posted by aiua (Member # 7825) on :
I'm not racist, but my shirt is fuzzy.
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
I'm not racist, but my logic is fuzzy?
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
I think the appropriate punishment for wearing something racist is to be thought of as a racist.
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
I wrote Dixie Outpost a letter. Kids at my high school wore DO shirts all the time, but this goes way over the line. :angry:
Posted by Shmuel (Member # 7586) on :
quote:Should both people in the fight be punished equally, or does one deserve more punishment than the other?
I'd say the one who actually hit his fellow student in the head because he didn't like the latter's shirt should be the one getting a heavier punishment. Oddly, the article fails to say whether he'd been penalized at all.
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
Instigating a fight is worse then participating in the fight that is instigated. If you wear a shirt like that to school, you've already started teh fight. Its just a question of who actually throws the first punch.
Its like war: The aggressor nation isn't always the one who fires the first shot. Sometimes its the nation that chokes off the other nation's supply routes.
Posted by Shmuel (Member # 7586) on :
Wearing an offensive T-shirt is equivalent to depriving a nation of supplies?!
Ohhhhkaaaaaay.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
analogous != equivalent
mischaracterizing != discussing
Posted by Shmuel (Member # 7586) on :
It's analogous, then? Cutting off a supply route does damage to the country, even if war hasn't been declared. The analogous case would be a country going to war because some other country insulted it. Which wouldn't be any more reasonable.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
There. Now you're saying how it's not a valid analogy.
I think I might agree with you, but I'm not sure yet.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Instigating a fight is worse then participating in the fight that is instigated. If you wear a shirt like that to school, you've already started teh fight. Its just a question of who actually throws the first punch.
Would you apply the same logic to someone who burns the flag in front of a West Point reunion?
Not that I think burning a flag is as bad as this shirt, but in either situation one knows a fight is likely.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quote:Instigating a fight is worse then participating in the fight that is instigated. If you wear a shirt like that to school, you've already started teh fight.
No. You haven't started a fight, you have intentionally offended people. If we say it's okay to slug anyone that offends you, then we're in for a whole lotta slugging going on.
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
"Would you apply the same logic to someone who burns the flag in front of a West Point reunion?"
Yup. You have to know that you're gonna be bloody at the end of the day if you do that. High School is worse, cause kids haven't really learned restraint as well as adults have. The racist started the fight... he just didn't throw the first punch.
Posted by Shmuel (Member # 7586) on :
quote:Would you apply the same logic to someone who burns the flag in front of a West Point reunion?
As regards the response of law enforcement, yes. The guy may be insane, but "he was asking for it" is never much of a justification for violent crime.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
I'd agree with the dress code concept. There are already guidelines in place for clothing that is unsuitable to wear, and the overall reason is usually that wearing such clothes would be disruptive. I'd say this qualifies.
And the kid who hit him did get punished, they're just nonspecific as to how: "Clay County school officials said the incident is isolated and both students involved were disciplined 'quickly and appropriately,' although they would not release specifics citing privacy concerns."
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
"No. You haven't started a fight, you have intentionally offended people. If we say it's okay to slug anyone that offends you, then we're in for a whole lotta slugging going on."
I didn't say it was ok.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
It's consistent, but I'm still not sure I buy it. How would you allow this to affect legal culpability, either criminal or civil?
Say both parties suffer minor injuries that require one doctor visit each for stictches, no third-party property is damaged. Should both be charged with misdemeanor assault? Just instigator?
On the civil side, who should pay whose doctor's bills? Should anyone get other damages?
My worry is that penalizing the person at law for purely expressive action amounts to penalizing speech.
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
I agree with the war analogy in the sense that fighting doesn't necessarily require physical contact nor is it limited to a specific type of combat.
The two problems I see with determining a punishment is that A) you punish the offender which raises the issue that Dag mentioned above or B) you do not punish the offender which implies that hurting someone physically is wrong, but hurting someone emotionally is acceptable.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
We should be glad the shirt didn't say anyone was a fascist.
</fighting-words-joke>
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
quote: This kid was lucky they didn't really jump him. With that shirt I think getting off with a punch in the nose was getting off easy
I have to agree with you. I mean I'm a white teenage boy, and to be honest, if i saw some kid wearing a T-shirt like that, he's got about a 50/50 chance of me kicking his butt.
Yes I would be wrong, but I have little to no respect for people who think encouraging the bigotry of our nations past is amusing, and unfortunately these people have a real knack for turning up on days when I'm already about to kill people.
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
"It's consistent, but I'm still not sure I buy it. How would you allow this to affect legal culpability, either criminal or civil?"
I wouldn't, usually. Its more a moral distinction.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Ah, ok. Then I agree with you.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
btw, that was a horribly written article. Is this what passes for journalism in Jacksonville?
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
People in my school would be suspended for wearing that...it was listed as one of the possible punishments for violating school rules, and it would have been applied.
Completely legal, because it was listed as a punishment for violating the schools policies. Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
This is a free-speech issue. Idiots have a right to their idiocy. It's in the Constitution, and I for one will fight to the death for their right. Or at least until I get bored.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
But students don't have a right to unduly disrupt a learning environment.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Disruption is one of the reasons cited by SCOTUS for limiting student free speech rights.
It's very dangerous ground, however. Unpopular political positions can invoke similar reactions, and limiting speech because of the expected immature reactions of other students strikes me as horribly wrong.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
But that can be decided on a case-by-case basis. I mean, it's one thing to protest injustice in a school-- such as Hispanic students not being allowed to play on the school baseball team (hypothetical case.) It's another to wear offensive and pointlessly provocative and disruptive clothing.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Right...which is why he would ahve been suspended for violating the dress code, not for being a bigot.
Trust me, there were plenyy of reasons why my high school, a school in the Detroit suburbs, would have had experience with things like this, and they had found a way to punish the student for this without giving cause for a lawsuit.
Or at least making sure the kid couldn't win such a lawsuit. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Exactly. You will notice that that's what I proposed in the first place. Posted by Miriya (Member # 7822) on :
If wearing a slogan on a t-shirt is protected as free speech, would there be laws against 'hate crimes' that apply?
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
No crime had been committed, though.
Posted by Miriya (Member # 7822) on :
Hmmm. up here in Canada we have laws prohibiting speech that "incites hatred against a recognizable group". Although I admit that wearing this particular shirt is more likely to incite the general public to hate the wearer. Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
If I ran a school, any students wearing political slogans would have to defend them in a debate at lunchtime. Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Lots of hungry kids in tht school... Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
DC had a law mitigating charges against anyone who punched someone for using curse words.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
quote:
quote: I hate to interrupt this discussion, but haven't we lost sight of the topic here?
Sure we have, Tante -- this is Hatrack afterall...
According to my dictionary:
hatrack (hǽ•ʧɹæk) 1.v.t. the act of having a thread derail from the original meaning and intention of the first post, e.g. “Jeez! This thread is hatracking nowhere”; 2.n.c. a thread that has been derailed hatrackingly from the original purpose, e.g. "some of the recent threads became hatracks". [Term; forum behaviour.]
---
I think the kid should have never brought the shirt to school. And as for his racism - I can speak from experience of a friend of mine in class: he's South African (from the Cape), hates blacks but not because of their genetics - just 'cause of Affirmative Action, because they smell different, and because they've been known to be criminals. It's a little similar to the way many blacks in the US acted and why [[/i]as far as I heard[/i], and correct me if I'm wrong - based on the whole 'poor neighbourhoods leading to crime' argument].
Assuming that's why the kid hated negros, then I guess that he wasn't trying to be provocative; and though he may dislike the blacks, he wasn't flashing it around school publicly.
Or so we are told, anyway.
The Bible, by the way, states many times that you're supposed to accept the Egyptian who's among your people specifically because you were a slave in his land. As a victim (and let's say - true or false - that the kid grew up in a black-hating environment excused by the fact that the blacks commited crimes against many of the while landlords), according to the Bible not only have you no right to start whinging for not receiving privileges, but you have the responsibility of not doing such a thing to another person, specifically because you were treated badly.
The statement which is said many times throughout the book of Deuteronomy (appearing in slightly different forms - compare 24:22 and 24:18), usually after sorbidding the act of treating a weaker link in the community in a bad way, is something like "and remember that you have been a slave in the land of Egypt, therefore I command you to do this thing".
Also, look at Leviticus 18:26, 19:33-34, and consequently 19:18. You have a responsibility to love the newcomer/immigrant (however you don't translate "ger") as one of your own.
I reckon that lad's done something that's should not be ethically excused. Not to mention that if he's got any sense of respect for the Bible, this shows how wrong he is.
The punishment in such a case? Leviticus 18:29.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
quote:Originally posted by Belle: My step-father was one of the most bigoted people I ever knew, and it was one reason my mother left him, honestly, it got to be too much to take. He used to tell me (as if passing on bits of wisdom) that there were three kinds of black people: First there were cops, like him. And they were okay, because they were cops. Then there were people who were "just black people" because they made attempts to lift themselves up and be better people through education or hard work and thirdly there were (insert epithet), and that was the vast majority of them and they just weren't worth anything.
Then, he would tell you he wasn't a racist because he went to a black doctor. But of course, that black doctor was in category number 2, so he was okay.
Wow, this sounds just like my grandfather, Belle. Even the black doctor bit.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Your dictionary mispronounces Hatrack, of all things?!?!
Pfffft.
Posted by JaimeBenlevy (Member # 6222) on :
"I'd say the one who actually hit his fellow student in the head because he didn't like the latter's shirt should be the one getting a heavier punishment. Oddly, the article fails to say whether he'd been penalized at all."
I think if he was penalized, it would be best to keep it quiet. There would probably be a huge protest from the black community if the kid was penalized. My guess is the school's administration (or whoever decided to penalize him) would end up being called racist. Assuming the kid was penalized, of course.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
A combination of an al-veolar and a trill is merged phonetically into an affricate. Like you don't pronounce it "t-rack" but "tchrack".
Or how do you propose the pronunciation be? "Hǽt•ɹæk"?
[ September 17, 2005, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: Jonathan Howard ]
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
You don't get to punch peoploe who wear insulting shirts. In no way is the black kid's response appropriate. The problem is that I'm not sure what an appropriate response entails--- possibly articulating the damaging effects of centuries of servitude and indignity-- which is why it's always easier to be the oblivious white kid in these situations. I imagine sexual harrassment is a similar situation.
There is something "Billy Budd"ish about this mess.
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
"You don't get to punch peoploe who wear insulting shirts. In no way is the black kid's response appropriate. The problem is that I'm not sure what an appropriate response entails"
Yeah, punching the kid just ends up reinforcing his racism. Its definetely a problem. Thats why I voted for lyncing
Btw, hello irami!
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Hat rack Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
"\Hat"rack`\"?!
What the hell is this? It ain't the International Phonemic Alphabet, that's for sure!
By the way, I asked my father - a linguist - whether I got it right (and not missed something trivial). "Yes, that's right", was what I got as a reply.
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
Jonathan, hatrack is pronounced with two syllables, the first consisting of hat and the second of rack. It is not pronounced ha track.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Oh, that's true.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
ha' track hat rack Have your father read about glottal stops, JonathanHoward.
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
No, Hatrack is made up of two morphemes, hat and rack. It is perfectly valid to pronounce it something like "hatchrack," although that is not how I pronounce it*. Many people pronounce the word truck as "chruck", but you won't even notice this unless you are listening very closely or are a linguist.
The only time most people are actually going to say "hat rack" is if they are saying it very slowly and enunciating.
Some of the symbols that Jonathan used don't display on my computer, so I can't be certain that he's 100% right. But his description sounds right.
*The other common way to pronounce it would be "ha'rak" where the ' is a glottal stop.
--Mel
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
And, congrats to Jonathan for hatracking a racism thread into a linguistics thread .
--Mel
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
I think it would be safe to say that there are several ways of pronouncing it, and of course everyone is going to deem their way as "the correct way," but there doesn't have to be only one "correct way."
As for myself, I tend to say hat-rack. Compound word and all, you know. I salute those of you who choose differently, though! Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
quote: Have your father read about glottal stops
Mind you, my father and I probably know how to pronounce more glottal stops - not to mention fricatives - than you (at least I know many of the fricatives). I'm now going through about two months of studying how glottal stops and fricatives make big phonem/tic differences in Hebrew.
And you know what? I'll write the IPA for Hatrack that way I pronounce it in my lexicon; you want it your way? Write your own.
Also, I had most of my pose regarding the racism bit. You decided to get hooked on the linguistic part. So it's not my fault, especially when I was referring to the previous hatrack that happened.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
That's OK, JH...not many people here particularily care about your "lexicon" anyway. At least not many peopl with a post count over 1000...
Might be interested....OSC, who created the word as used in this context says Hat"rack`.
That t at the end of the Hat is a softer t than some, but it is clearly pronounced.
Even when speaking at a normal pace.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Yeah, I'm with Kwea.
Someone said in the glottal stop thread (maybe Tom_D, too lazy to search) that it's a website named after a river named after a rack that holds hats - how do you think it's pronounced?
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
Yeah, but lets face it... OSC isn't from anywhere near where the river is supposed to be, so has no idea how pronunciation actually works Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
quote: That t at the end of the Hat is a softer t than some, but it is clearly pronounced.
Which is why it is merged as an affricate.
quote: That's OK, JH...not many people here particularily care about your "lexicon" anyway.
Then why, for half a page, are you discussing it? Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:The racist started the fight... he just didn't throw the first punch.
You could say that. Or you could say the guy who sold that kid the shirt started the fight, because he should have known it was offensive and that a kid wearing it around would get in a fight. Or, for that matter, you can say that God started the fight, since he really set all of this in motion in the first place. In fact, every person who in any way led to this incident, whether directly or indirectly, started that fight. That's how causation works - there is no single cause for anything, only an infinite string of causes, all of which could be considered "the cause" of that end result because each could have changed to prevent that exact end result.
What matters, however, is that it is the person who actually threw the punches who deserves the most punishment - not because he was the only one who "started" the fight, but because he was the only one fighting with no excuse. The victim can claim self-defense, and those who joined in can claim they were defending one side or another, but the one who threw the first punch can only claim what really happened - that he lost his cool when he should not have. Being offended is not an excuse.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jonathan Howard:
quote: That t at the end of the Hat is a softer t than some, but it is clearly pronounced.
Which is why it is merged as an affricate.
quote: That's OK, JH...not many people here particularily care about your "lexicon" anyway.
Then why, for half a page, are you discussing it?
We weren't....we were discussing a silly nOOb who can't pronounce Hatrack right, but still feels he can lecture us on it's pronouncation, even to the point of disagreeing with the dictonary pronouncation.
There is a difference. Posted by Treason (Member # 7587) on :
To be honest, I'm going to tell you a big fat lie if I start my sentence that way.
And guys, I ALWAYS pronounce it Ha track. It's a place, not a thing to hang my hat on! (I just like the way it sounds better.)
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
^^
AH!
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
And I'm no n00b. I'm here for a year and I have over 2,500 posts just on this username.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
quote:Originally posted by Treason: To be honest, I'm going to tell you a big fat lie... And guys, I ALWAYS pronounce it Ha track...
Traitor Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Please, please, calm down everyone.
The real pronunciation is:
hatrack (n) the-plays'-weir-iy-spehnd-way'-too-much-tiyme Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
*pats Jonathan on the head*
And we're all very impressed dear.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by blacwolve: *pats Jonathan on the head*
And we're all very impressed dear.
I rest my case.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
"My step-father was one of the most bigoted people I ever knew, and it was one reason my mother left him, honestly, it got to be too much to take. He used to tell me (as if passing on bits of wisdom) that there were three kinds of black people: First there were cops, like him. And they were okay, because they were cops. Then there were people who were "just black people" because they made attempts to lift themselves up and be better people through education or hard work and thirdly there were (insert epithet), and that was the vast majority of them and they just weren't worth anything.
Then, he would tell you he wasn't a racist because he went to a black doctor. But of course, that black doctor was in category number 2, so he was okay."
Y'know, the Black Comedian/Actor Chris Rock went through the EXACT same bit but as HIS view. And except of being three kinds, just 2. Black people, and [insert You-KNow-What here].
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