Today in my ling class we were learning about phonology. My prof's examples for a glottal stop included uh-oh, batman, and
hatrack!
I had a smiley moment to myself.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Congratulations on being one of the people who pronounce "Hatrack" correctly.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
:pirate:
Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
How else would one pronounce it? I'm guessing "Ha Track" would be the only way to say it without the stop, but have never heard that spoken.
--Enigmatic
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
psst...it's probably because we aren't an audio forum. Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Enigmatic: How else would one pronounce it? I'm guessing "Ha Track" would be the only way to say it without the stop, but have never heard that spoken.
--Enigmatic
Yup. Porter says it that way, as does my wife. :ninja: Surprisingly, there have been arguments on the forum about which way was correct. But OSC himself said that it's hat + rack (duh), not ha + track.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I pronounce it "HaTrack", and Jon Boy knows I do.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I heard "Ha-Track" for the first time at KamaCon, and had to choke to avoid laughing. I mean, it's named after a river named after a hat-rack. A place to hang one's hat. Ergo Hat-rack.
Ha-Track is like a cross between an Objibwe place name and a piece of military hardware.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
How does Hatrack have a glottal stop? I see (or hear) "uh oh" but not batman or hatrack.
Perhaps I don't quite understand this glottal stop thing.
Posted by T_Smith (Member # 3734) on :
Im in the Hat Rack field.
Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
quote:Originally posted by sarcasticmuppet: psst...it's probably because we aren't an audio forum.
Easy for you to say, you probably don't have 4 immediate family members and a brother-in-law all registered.
--Enigmatic
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote:How does Hatrack have a glottal stop? I see (or hear) "uh oh" but not batman or hatrack.
Think of the word "button". While some people do pronounce the "t"s, most people just substitute a glottal stop so that it sounds like buh-un. Same with the word "mountain", many if not most say mouh-un.
So the idea is that people probably say "Hah-rack" instead of "Hat-rack", since that will inevitably *sound* like "Ha-track". Not much way to avoid it.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Oooh. I can do both, now that I experiment, but I definately say HaT Rack with a "t".
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
The only way you can pronounce it as "ha-track" is if you syllabify it wrong.
Teshi: Is there a small puff of air when you pronounce the t? What is your tongue doing when you pronounce it?
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Wait, does HaTrack rhyme with "attack?"
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
No. It rhymes with track.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Track doesn't rhyme with attack?
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
It sounds more like "HATCH-rack" when I say it.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by twinky: Wait, does HaTrack rhyme with "attack?"
No. The stresses are different.
Ruth: That's because when tr appears at the beginning of a syllable, the t becomes more retroflex and the r devoices. They sort of blend together and sound like chr.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
I call it Halftrack in my head, and I make up silly stories about it.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote:The only way you can pronounce it as "ha-track" is if you syllabify it wrong.
There isn't much (if any) difference between "ha-track" and "hat-rack" at the speed of spoken language. You have to slow it down artificially to tell the difference.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy:
quote:Originally posted by twinky: Wait, does HaTrack rhyme with "attack?"
No. The stresses are different.
It's a slant rhyme, though, right?
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Hm, I keep trying all these ways in my head and I can tell a difference between "ha-track" and "hat-rack" but I don't know how to explain it.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
Jon Boy: I know. I was just trying to clear up some confusion by people saying they pronounced a t sound when neither pronunciation actually has a t sound in it anywhere. I was also responding to twinky by demontrating that I emphasize the first syllable, unlike the pronunciation of attack.
And no, it's not a slant rhyme, though it may be a feminine rhyme. That is, the two words rhyme in the same way sing and going rhyme, or head and rioted.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Huh, I've never heard of a "feminine rhyme" before. So by default are all other rhymes "masculine"?
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
I know something about this. Americans say the T's (which are dental stops) in hatrack or button, but Brits often substitute a glottal stop. But Americans do have glottal stops in uh-oh and uh-uh.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
I don't say the t's in button, it's definately more of a glottal stop there.
Edit: Actually, I glottal stop the first t and say the second t.
Posted by Little_Doctor (Member # 6635) on :
I say Ha-Track in my head as well. Whats weird is that when I say button, I don't include the T's or the I. It's more of a Buh-Nn when I say it.. I kind of have that "New Yorker Accent" though, so that could explain it.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:but Brits often substitute a glottal stop
I can do that in a London accent but I wouldn't say you could particularly draw the line in that way.
Jon Boy: I pronounce the "t" like you would in "track", only with a short hiccup between "hat" "rack" so the words are more seperate. My tongue hits the top of my mouth behind my back teeth. It's really a difficult word to say. Ha-Track is much easier. Ha-rack is even easier.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
kojabu, my husband majored in Linguistics at Cornell, I bet you're taking a class from one of his old profs!
And he does love to talk about stops, oh my!
Posted by dean (Member # 167) on :
I say "hachrack" which is rendered here was ha-track. I know now that Hatrack is named after the river in the Alvin Maker series which was named because it was shaped like a hat-rack. However, when I first came here, I had read fewer of OSC's books, so I called it what it looked like. (I could never make it past Rev. Thrower in Seventh Son.) Now I'm simply in the habit of calling it Ha-Track, so why stop anyway? Though I do consciously call it Hat-rack when I meet up with other Hat-Rackers, as I did on accident the other day at a party.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by beverly:
quote:The only way you can pronounce it as "ha-track" is if you syllabify it wrong.
There isn't much (if any) difference between "ha-track" and "hat-rack" at the speed of spoken language. You have to slow it down artificially to tell the difference.
Yeah there is. I can definitely hear the difference. If I'm feeling ambitious later, maybe I'll record some sound clips and post them.
Brinestone & twinky: A feminine rhyme is where the stress is not on the last syllable, like cleaver and reaver. A masculine rhyme has stress on the final syllable, like explode and decode.
Will B: Most Americans don't say the t; we insert a glottal stop instead.
Teshi: That explanation just confused me more. How do you pronounce the t like in track if you're inserting a "hiccup" between hat and rack? And what do you mean by hiccup, anyway?
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
She may be mistaking the tongue on the dental ridge (used in the extended "n") as being for a "t". (For the word "button".) In actuality, it seems the "t" and "n" simply blend together with the "t" disappearing altogether. And, of course, there is no vowel between the two, except for the voicing on the "n".
Jon, I would be interested in what the difference is. Right now it seems to be only a psychological distinction, much as most people believe that they pronounce "bear" and "bare", "right" and "write", "loot" and "lute" differently, but really they pronounce them exactly the same unless they are consciously trying to make a distinction.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
quote:Originally posted by Zeugma: kojabu, my husband majored in Linguistics at Cornell, I bet you're taking a class from one of his old profs!
And he does love to talk about stops, oh my!
Actually, the prof is teaching Ling 101 for the first time at Cornell this year. She's from Ohio State, but I don't know if she has taught other classes at Cornell prior to this or not. Her last name is Amanda Miller.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
The difference is the people who say "hat-rack" never touch their tongue to the spot behind their teeth, whereas the people who say "ha-track" do. It's a completely different consonant sound there.
As for feminine rhyme, I distinctly remember a literature professor at BYU telling me my version. How do I know you're right and I'm wrong? Posted by Ophelia (Member # 653) on :
I was absolutely in love with glottal stops when I first learned there was a word for that sound.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I realize that I absolutely pronounce the "t" in "hatrack." In fact, I almost say "Hat Rack" as two separate words.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brinestone: As for feminine rhyme, I distinctly remember a literature professor at BYU telling me my version. How do I know you're right and I'm wrong?
Look it up in that huge literature anthology of mine. It's in the glossary.
Posted by Hamson (Member # 7808) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brinestone: It sounds more like "HATCH-rack" when I say it.
That's exactly how I think of it.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote:The difference is the people who say "hat-rack" never touch their tongue to the spot behind their teeth, whereas the people who say "ha-track" do. It's a completely different consonant sound there.
So, it isn't a difference between "hat-rack" and "ha-track" but a difference between "hah-rack" and "ha-track". You seem to be saying that if a person chooses to enunciate the "t", they are automatically saying "ha-track". But I don't think that is the case at all (as in Tom's case.)
The fact is, Porter tends to enunciate more than the average Joe (his whole family does this) so he more likely to make the actual "t" sound when most people would glottal-stop. My favorite is the "plosive t" at the end of words. His brothers do that even more than he does. But they aren't married....
I've corrupted him!
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Gimme some more of that corruption, baby.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hamson:
quote:Originally posted by Brinestone: It sounds more like "HATCH-rack" when I say it.
That's exactly how I think of it.
And it's not like fingernails on the chalkboard of your brain?
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Where's this "h" coming from?
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
It comes from the way you pronounce the t followed by an r. If you just say tr and hold it, it almost has the tch sound.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
*delightfully corrupts Porter some more*
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Get a room, you two!
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*covers eyes*
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
15555! Nice post count, rivka!
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Think of the word "button". While some people do pronounce the "t"s, most people just substitute a glottal stop so that it sounds like buh-un. Same with the word "mountain", many if not most say mouh-un.
quote:The difference is the people who say "hat-rack" never touch their tongue to the spot behind their teeth, whereas the people who say "ha-track" do. It's a completely different consonant sound there.
This has ALWAYS bothered me. I'm from Hawaii, and we pronounce ALL our Ts: button, curtain, mitten, none of this "buh'n" crap. And what fascinates me is that people laugh and tell me I'm pronouncing it wrong/funny: but really, who's the one ignoring letters?
I pronounce "Hatrack" with the t, with no glottal stop, and it doesn't sound like "Ha-track." Am I really all that strange?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
It's not just Hawaii. I also say the Ts in those words. And I say Hatrack with a T, and do not say Ha-track. I say Hat Rack.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
Thank goodness, I was hoping we weren't the only ones.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Now I don't know how I say it. I've read and pronounced all the ways listed in this thread, and landed up confusing myself.
Posted by Marek (Member # 5404) on :
am i the only one who thinks of the end of buffy when they see mention of glottal stop?
(i'm guessing that i am)
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Grrr, Argh?
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
Say this with a glottal stop:
Betty Batter bought some butter "But," she said, "this butter's bitter." "If I put it in my batter it will make my batter bitter." So she bought some better butter, put it in the bitter batter, and made the bitter batter better.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Darn you, Glenn. I tried your tongue twister, and very nearly choked myself to death.
Please, people, I implore you, for the love of humanity, do not try this alone at home!
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
Even better, do it with a scottish accent (imagine Shrek)
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Oddly, with a Scottish accent is the only way I can do it without error.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
Yeah, that's the way I learned it.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
It also works with a Cockney accent.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
Maybe I should have said "It's easier when you say it with a scottish accent."
That's kind of actually what I meant.
Posted by Marek (Member # 5404) on :
in buffy, there was a thing about the meaning of m+glottal stop, very late in the last season.
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