This is topic SWAT raid rave in Utah in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.


To visit this topic, use this URL:
http://www.hatrack.com/ubb/main/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=037425

---

Posted by Treason (Member # 7587) on :
 
This is just not right. Here are the Google searches for it, so you can see it's real. Here is the video


Knick of Evol intent puts the night's events into his own words::

Last night, I was booked to play an event about an hour outside of Salt Lake City, Utah. The hype behind this show was huge, they presold 700 tickets and they expected up to 3,000 people total. The promoters did an amazing job with the show.. they even made slipmats with the flyers on them to promote in local shops.

So, we got to the show around 11:15 or so and it was really cool. It was all outdoors, in a valley surrounded by huge mountains. They had an amazing light show flashing on to a mountain behind the site, the sound was booming, the crowd was about 1500 people thick and everything just seemed too good to be true really. Well...

At about 11:30 or so, I was standing behind the stage talking with someone when I noticed a helicopter pulling over one of the mountain tops. I jokingly said "Oh look, here comes big brother" to the person I was with. I wasn't far off.

The helicopter dipped lower and lower and started shining its lights on the crowd. I was kind of in awe and just sat and watched this thing circle us for a minute. As I looked back towards the crowd I saw a guy dressed in camoflauge walking by, toting an assault rifle. At this point, everyone was fully aware of what was going on . A few "troops" rushed the stage and cut the sound off and started yelling that everyone "get the f**k out of here or go to jail". This is where it got really sticky.

No one resisted. That's for sure. They had police dogs raiding the crowd of people and I saw a dog signal out a guy who obviously had some drugs on him. The soldiers attacked the guy (4 of them on 1), and kicked him a few times in the ribs and had their knees in his back and sides. As they were cuffing him, there was about 1000 kids trying to leave in the backdrop, peacefully. Next thing I know, A can of ****ing TEAR GAS is launched into the crowd. People are running and screaming at this point. Girls are crying, guys are cussing... bad scene.

Now, this is all I saw with my own eyes, but I heard plenty of other accounts of the night. Now this isnt gossip I heard from some candy raver, these are instances cited straight out of the promoters mouth..

- One of the promoters friends (a very small female) was attacked by one of the police dogs. As she struggled to get away from it, the police tackled her. 3 grown men proceeded to KICK HER IN THE STOMACH.

- The police confiscated 3 video tapes in total. People were trying to document what was happening out there. The police saw one guy filming and ran after him, tackled him and his camera fell, and luckily.. his friend grabbed it and ran and got away. priceless footage. That's not all though. Out of 1,500 people, there's sure to be more footage.

- The police were rounding up the staff of the party and the main promoter went up to them with the permit for the show and said "here, I have the permit." The police then said, "no you don't" and ripped the permit out of his hand. Then, they put an assault rifle to his forehead and said "get the f**k out of here right now."


Now.. let's get the facts straight here.

This event was 100% legal. They had every permit the city told them they needed. They had a 2 MILLION DOLLAR insurance policy for the event. They had liscenced security guards at the gates confiscating any alcohol or drugs found upon entry (yes, they searched every car on the way in). Oh, I suppose I should mention that they arrested all the security guards for possession.

Oh another interesting fact.. the police did not have a warrant. The owner of the land already has a lawsuit against the city for something similar. A few months ago, she rented her land for a party and the police raided that as well. And catch this, the police forced her to LEAVE HER OWN PERSONAL PROPERTY. That's right. They didnt arrest her, but made her leave her own property!!!
Don't get it twisted, this is all going down in probably THE most conservative state in the USA. And this is scary.. a gross violation of our civil liberties. The police wanted this party shut down, so they made it happen. Even though everything about this event was legal. The promoters spent over $ 20,000 on this show and did everything they had to to make it legit, only to have it taken away from them by a group of radical neo-con's with an agenda.

This was one of the scariest things I have ever witnessed in person. I can't even begin to describe how surreal it was. Helicopters, assault rifles, tear gas, camoflauge-wearing soldiers.... why? Was that really necessary?

This needs to be big news across the USofA. At least in our music scene (edm as a whole)... this could happen to any of us at any time. When we're losing the right to gather peacefully, we're also letting the police set a standard of what we can get away with. And I think that's BULLS***T!

The system f**cked up last night... They broke up a party that was 100% legal and they physically hurt a lot of people there at the same time. The promoters already have 6 lawsuits ready to file with their lawyers and the ACLU is already involved.
 

---

Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
I'll be very interested in hearing how this turns out.
 

---

Posted by Brian J. Hill (Member # 5346) on :
 
I rerely agree with the ACLU, but it does appear that civil liberties were seriously violated in this bust. There need to be serious repurcussions towards anyone responsible for this behavior.

I do take offense at the word "neo-con" being thrown about as an epithet towards those the author disagrees with politically. It is kinda like the word "homophobe." It started out meaning one thing, but has since been hijacked and is often used for something completely different.
 

---

Posted by Sarcasm (Member # 4653) on :
 
So now the Utah County law enforcement is a bunch of neo-con soldiers?

Also, this is important to note:

quote:

---

Police planned the bust when they discovered that the rave's promoters had not filed for a mass gathering permit through the County Commission office. To have more than 250 at an event without that permit is a violation of the law, [Utah County Sheriff's Sgt. Darren ] Gilbert said.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Foust:
I'd also be interested in hearing the police side of things - why on earth did they show up in the first place?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Treason:
Among those arrested for drug possession were several security guards hired by Fullmer to patrol the event. Guards at security check points confiscated alcohol and drugs as ravers filed into the party, Fullmer said.


That's the part that just kills me. The promoters were making it safer by trying to take the drugs away from the kids before they went into the party. Then the security guards get arrested for having them...wow.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by steven:
The thing that makes me unwilling to fully trust the authorities is this:

1. Utah is controlled by the LDS church. Does anyone disagree with this?

---

quote:

---

2. Excluding the Elizabeth Smart kidnappers, there are plenty of completely sane jack-Mormons in Utah. Sane by my definition, anyway.

If sane people are leaving the LDS church, and Utah is controlled by the LDS church....I don't know, man.

---

quote:

---

The guards gathered drugs and were holding them to turn in to law enforcement at the end of the night, Fullmer said. However, when police broke up the party, those security guards who had confiscated drugs were arrested for investigation of possession of the controlled substances.
"Once they get the materials, beyond holding it while they wait for law enforcement to come . . . the scope of their ability to be within the bounds of the law is pretty much expired," Cannon said.
If they had called police immediately, he said, there wouldn't have been a problem.

---

My first reaction was that it makes sense for security to just turn in all the drugs confiscated at the end of the night instead of calling the police on the first instance. Seemed more efficient. But for cover-your-butt legality they probably should call to report it right away and leave it up to the police to decide if they want to come out right away to pick it up or wait until security is done confiscating for the night.

--Enigmatic
 

---

Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
 
JB--

this isn't your forum. Feel free to order me around on galactic lameness, I mean cactus.

Second (just kidding man, I'm messing with you ),

How's about you find me a couple of examples of jack Mormons who are police officers in Utah? Just 2 or 3 would be enough. I'd be more than willing to take back my statements. I doubt seriously that you could find such a thing. If you can, though, I apologize in advance.
 

---

Posted by Kent (Member # 7850) on :
 
Jon, steven is joking. Do you not see that the two statements are mutually incompatible?

True, it is a lame joke; but it is a joke.
 

---

Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
 
ok... Speaking as a professional theatre tech, here is what I'm betting...

1. The promoter was some random guy who thought he could make a living throwing parties. Any major or other wise professional promoter wouldn't have to ask the county which permits where necessary.

2. The security must of been a group of nonprofessionals. In any major city, you'd find professional Security companies That know and use LEGAL procedures for dealing with drug violations.

3. The only excessive force that I could believe happened would be a drug dog getting carried away. SWAT team members are highly trained to carry big guns and try there best not to use them. Drug dogs however, are trained to locate and indicate where drugs are, and usually they indicate by trying to get to the drugs.

True all of this is just my opinion, and I know very little about this event, minus the few articles that were googled and the video. From all that I have seen, this looks like an attempt to legalize a rave, which is probably the only reason the authorities knew about it...
 

---

Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
 
It's a tough one for me. On the one hand, the only jack Mormons I know in Utah are smokers, and I'm not a big fan of cigarettes. (that's a long story, sort of) However, I'm even less of a fan of loaded assault rifles being pointed at the heads of unarmed teenagers who have no violent intentions.

maybe Utah should just secede. Would that work?
 

---

Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by steven:
JB--

this isn't your forum. Feel free to order me around on galactic lameness, I mean cactus.

Second (just kidding man, I'm messing with you ),

How's about you find me a couple of examples of jack Mormons who are police officers in Utah? Just 2 or 3 would be enough. I'd be more than willing to take back my statements. I doubt seriously that you could find such a thing. If you can, though, I apologize in advance.

---

quote:

---

quote:
The guards gathered drugs and were holding them to turn in to law enforcement at the end of the night, Fullmer said. However, when police broke up the party, those security guards who had confiscated drugs were arrested for investigation of possession of the controlled substances.
"Once they get the materials, beyond holding it while they wait for law enforcement to come . . . the scope of their ability to be within the bounds of the law is pretty much expired," Cannon said.
If they had called police immediately, he said, there wouldn't have been a problem.
My first reaction was that it makes sense for security to just turn in all the drugs confiscated at the end of the night instead of calling the police on the first instance. Seemed more efficient. But for cover-your-butt legality they probably should call to report it right away and leave it up to the police to decide if they want to come out right away to pick it up or wait until security is done confiscating for the night.

--Enigmatic

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by steven:
JB, do you guys want to secede or not? Is there any kind of consensus out there?

---

quote:

---

Jon, steven is joking. Do you not see that the two statements are mutually incompatible?

True, it is a lame joke; but it is a joke.

---

quote:

---

I kind of thought moving to Utah in the first place was kind of like seceding.

---

Not at all. It's more like moving to Canada because [insert evil president] got elected.
 

---

Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
>>my definition of a jack Mormon (which is an imperfect definition) is someone who willing leaves the LDS church, or is excommunicated, but still believes the Book of Mormon, etc.

If it's imperfect, and you know it's imperfect, why don't you go about. . .perfecting it?

I don't see any correlation between the Mormon population and the heavy-handedness of this response. If this had happened in LA, would you throw such weighty innuendos at Latinos or Blacks?

Or Michael Jackson worshippers?

If you cannot prove such correlations, or at least back them up with evidence. . . you should probably find another forum to troll in.
 

---

Posted by Treason (Member # 7587) on :
 
Thank you for the definition. Out of curiosity why "jack"?
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Where would you suggest, Scott?
 

---

Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
 
I guess what I don't know is, do people leave the church 1 at a time and still practice their beliefs with full sincerity, or is that confined to larger groups that leave the church all at once?
 

---

Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
False dichotomy.

But to sort of answer your question, most people who leave the church do so individually. There are very few groups that leave the church all at once.
 

---

Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
 
What is that giant flushing sound?


Oh.... it's just this thread
 

---

Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
 
JB--I thought I had heard about an entire town or two that was still Mormon, but not LDS, in Utah. Something like this:

www.natashatynes.org/newswire/2005/06/lost_boys_throw.html

when I heard about this I didn't realize that they broke away in 1890. I had thought that it was more recent, like 1950's.
 

---

Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
 
Why use the word "jack," though? Was a man named Jack the archetypal excommunicated Mormon?
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
These people probably broke away from the church in response to the church no longer condoning plural marriage.
 

---

Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
Foust and Treason: Here's the origin of "Jack Mormon."

steven: What's your point?
 

---

Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
 
I guess I misunderstood, m_p_h. I just assumed any intelligent adult in Utah would have heard of this group.

As far as the plural marriage thing goes, is that the only reason why larger groups break away from the church?
 

---

Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
 
Maybe steven read some Harry Turtledove books, Utah tried to secede a couple of times and form a new nation which they called Deseret because the Mormons were being treated as second class citizens.
 

---

Posted by Treason (Member # 7587) on :
 
Yeah, my thread kinda did go down the toilet!

Let's get back on topic. This was not about Utah, it's just where it happened! This is about a rave gone bad...When SWAT attacks! Next on Fox.
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

quote:

---

I guess I misunderstood, m_p_h. I just assumed any intelligent adult in Utah would have heard of this group.

---

quote:

---

As far as the plural marriage thing goes, is that the only reason why larger groups break away from the church?

---

quote:

---

Why use the word "jack," though? Was a man named Jack the archetypal excommunicated Mormon?

---

quote:

---

‘The Random House Unabridged Dictionary’ defines JACK MORMON as: 1) a Mormon not active in the church or adhering strictly to Mormon principles (e.g. one who smokes and drinks, etc.) or 2) a non-Mormon living amicably among Mormons.

One of the first references to "Jack Mormon" comes from B. H. Roberts' ‘Comprehensive History of the Church, ‘volume 2, page 322, in a footnote. Apparently, Thomas C. Sharpe, editor of the ‘Warsaw Signal’ (Illinois), an anti-Mormon newspaper of the 1840s, first used the expression ‘Jack Mason’ to refer to anyone who refused to take part in the anti-Mason activities of the 1830s. Sharpe later coined the term "Jack Mormon" to refer to people who were not members of the Mormon church but who sympathized with the Mormons and refused to terrorize and punish them. For many years thereafter, the term referred to anyone who supported or sympathized with the church but was not Mormon.

The expression was obviously used in a derogatory sense by Sharpe since he was being critical of these Mormon sympathizers. The only meanings of ‘jack’ that were current at that time (mid-1800s) and that appear applicable were 1) ‘man or common man’ (Chaucer used the expression ‘Jakke fool’ as far back as the 14th century in ‘Canterbury Tale’) and jack-of-all-trades dates from the early 17th century. 2) ‘a fool’– a contemptibly foolish or stupid person, dolt, blockhead ass,’ which originally meant an ‘impertinent and rude fellow’ and was the source of ‘jack’ in’ jackass.’ This second meaning seems the more likely, but whether Sharp would have been using it in its original sense or as a shortening of ‘jackass’ is not clear. [note: ‘jack’ also referred to the male in animals (e.g. jack hare) and the ‘jackrabbit’ gets its name from its long jack-ass like ears].

1845 “Jack Mormons, and sympathizers abroad may croak and groan over the poor Mormons.”—‘Quincy (Illinois) Whig,’ 30 Oct.. page 2/1

1846 “A certain Jack-mormon of Hancock county, we won't call him big-head, (but the Saints used to) is in the habit of shaving the hair off his forehead, in order to give it an intellectual appearance.”—‘Warsaw (Ill.) Signal,’ 6 Feb., page 3/1

(Oxford English Dictionary, Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang, Cassell’s Dictionary of Slang)

---

 

---

Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
 
Am I the only one that is a little amused that the name of the poster is "Treason?"

You better be careful..this board may be being monitored right now!
 

---

Posted by Treason (Member # 7587) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
 
Cool! I'm a Jack Mormon then!
Heheh.. Mormons are cute.


That bust thing though is REALLY messed up.
 

---

Posted by CStroman (Member # 6872) on :
 
Also just to put some light on the Law Enforcement of Utah. Although there is a large percentage of Mormons (LDS) in Utah and understandably so, there is actually a much LOWER percentage of law enforcement members who are Mormon.

To Illustrate, I live in a small neighborhood with approximately 50+ homes. Approx. 3 of those homes are lived in by Law Enforcement Officers. One of the homes has a husband and wife that are both Law Enforcement.

None of them are Mormon.

Unfortunately current "Law Enforcement" jobs are somewhat "unappealing" to active Mormons and in some ways contradictory in much the same way being a Trucker is.

There aren't alot of Mormon Truckers. Likewise there aren't alot of Mormon Law Enforcement Officers.
 

---

Posted by The_Government (Member # 7049) on :
 
This thread is not being watch... We promise you...


Oh, and just an FYI, Utah is not being run by the Mormons, it's run by the masons.
 

---

Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
 
steven - Here's an example for you: my aunt (who is not an active member in the LDS church) was a police officer in Utah.
 

---

Posted by The Man (Member # 8467) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The_Government:
This thread is not being watch... We promise you...


Oh, and just an FYI, Utah is not being run by the Mormons, it's run by the masons.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by steven:
So is every Mormon on Hatrack in agreement with the assumption that "active mormons don't like being cops, with a few exceptions?"

---

quote:

---

I thought Mormons liked the military, in general, and were proud to have their kids serve.

---

quote:

---

The state is not run by the Mormons. It's being run down by morons like Rocky Anderson - mayor of Salt Lake City (a non-Mormon borderline Anti-Mormon).

---

quote:

---

---

quote:

---

---

quote:

---

So is every Mormon on Hatrack in agreement with the assumption that "active mormons don't like being cops, with a few exceptions?"

---

quote:

---

---

quote:

---

---

quote:

---

---

quote:

---

---

quote:

---

---

quote:

---

---

quote:

---

---

quote:

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by steven:
Why don't you head on over to www.galacticcactus.com and see what the mormons were saying about me when they thought I wasn't around? I'm deeply impressed by their sense of honor.

---

Steven, you are lying again. You were specifically told by scottneb that you were being talked about over at GC so that it wouldn't be behind your back.
 

---

Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
Treason: Just a nitpick—when quoting someone, use one opening tag before the quote and one closing tag after, not one of each before and after.

steven: If you have a problem with me, you can e-mail me. Leave my church out of it, and stop with the trolling. Also, I don't think we were saying anything about you that hadn't already been said to your face.
 

---

Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
 
when did I lie the first time, m_p_h?
 

---

Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
Wow, such incisive wit, Steven!

I think a word like 'honor' has little use on an online forum where most of the people haven't met each other or done much except exchange text. This forum is a bit of an exception, because people HAVE met and often done very nice, even honorable things for each other.

In any case, your style certainly doesn't make you qualified to comment on anyone else's 'honor'
 

---

Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
 
JB, like I said before, this isn't you board. Get it? Not your board.
 

---

Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
 
Steven, thanks for the link. I find it quite entertaining. I didn't know you were such a repeat offender.
 

---

Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
 
Wow, such incisive wit, Rakeesh!
 

---

Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by steven:
JB, like I said before, this isn't you board. Get it? Not your board.

---

I'm only asking you to be civil. I hope that's not an unreasonable request.
 

---

Posted by Treason (Member # 7587) on :
 
Jon Boy:
Ohhhhhhh duh to me! I see now. Sorry!
 

---

Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
I think you'll find, Steven, that Jon Boy's views are quite in line with the owners of this board.

Are you looking to find out for certain?
 

---

Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
 
You're not the mod, JB, get it? You're not the mod. I'll listen to you on your board. I don't have a problem with what got said there. I misread one of Primal Curve's posts, that's why I posted in the first place.
 

---

Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
he's not the only one telling you to shut the heck up
 

---

Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
 
steven, Jon Boy's telling you these sorts of things so the mods don't have to get involved. We like to self-police, in order to save the moderators from all that work. Also, people are probably trying to help you conform to the social standards around here so you don't get banned.

We're not doing this just to be bossy.
 

---

Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
That's just a perk!
 

---

Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by steven:
You're not the mod, JB, get it? You're not the mod. I'll listen to you on your board. I don't have a problem with what got said there.

---

quote:

---

Why don't you head on over to www.galacticcactus.com and see what the mormons were saying about me when they thought I wasn't around? I'm deeply impressed by their sense of honor.

---

quote:

---

shut the heck up

---

There's no reason to start using the Mormon "H" word now is there?

Let's all get back to discussing raves, police brutallity, drugs and rock n' roll and mormon law enforcement officials.

As for Law Enforcement Officials and Mormons in Utah. I do have a sister-in-law whose Uncle (I know it's distant) is the Sherrif over the county I live in. He IS Mormon but about 20% of his force is and the rest are not, which is fine. The county is approximately 50% Mormon which is low but that is due to there being 3 military bases/installations in the county and the transitionary status of the people comming and going through there.
 

---

Posted by Treason (Member # 7587) on :
 
I will sneak back in here to remind everyone this was not supposed to be all about Mormons!


But I have given up the thread to steven and Rakeesh. Though steven, I blame you!
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by steven:
when did I lie the first time, m_p_h?

---

quote:

---

I think it's frightening that you would be ok with your daughter or son having guns pointed at them. You are not a parent, are you?

---

quote:

---

I wont speak for him, but I will give you my view on this. I would rather not have anyone point a gun at my child. But if they are doing things that are against the law then perhaps it could be the wake up call they need to get their life back on track.

---

quote:

---

gnixing didn't say that he would be ok with a gun being pointed at his child's head he just said he would want SWAT there.

---

quote:

---

I hope that we are able to teach our children so that this wont be something that will happen.

---

quote:

---

There are many people at raves who are not on drugs.

---

quote:

---

if I raise kids to be such morons that they would attend such a gathering, I would understand it

---

quote:

---

I think I'd prefer my children didn't go to a performance where guards are taking drugs from people. That would not be a venue I would want them at. I might even think that the police coming in would be a nice scare, although it wouldn't be my top choice due to the chance of injury during a raid. I'd rather they just didn't attend at all. Yup.

---

quote:

---

I've got one other important point. Raves are NOT parties. They are about music, sex, and getting high. There is nothing good going to come out of a rave. Nothing. There is a reason that raves are not legal in the state of Utah, and I support it completely.

---

quote:

---

It seems to me that if this sponser was making inquiries and was under surveilance, why was there no action taken before the event?

---

quote:

---

They weren't after the drugs. Narc officers aren't looking for the small time dealers and users, they look for the big ones. A raid like this is too large a profile for Narcotics, it would drive the big-time dealers into hiding. So I have to ask again, why the high-profile, over-kill raid? What were the police honestly expecting to find there?

---