I know, I'm 17, just a silly teenager. But I'm a lot mroe mature about things like dating than other people my age, and I have a serious problem.
After some long, serious conversations with my boyfriend of a year and a half(total- we've dated twice, this time for 6 months.), I've found out a lot of things that I hadn't previously known. 1. He only started dating me because he wanted to be friends, and he didn't know any other way to approach it(I asked him out first). 2. He believes that kissing should be reserved for marriage- ANY kind of kiss. He believes that in reserving it for so long, it's mroe special in the end. Now, I agree with him on this(more on that later)- but we've already kissed. 3. He says he loves me- and I know I love him- but he doesn't know "what kind of love" it is. He says that since we've agreed not to kiss anymore(going along with his beliefs), that we're nothing more than friends with a title, that there is no difference. 4. He believes that the typical high school dating relationship is wrong, that courting is the only way to go. I agree with him- we're both looking for something real, something that will last, that doesn't have as much of a physical aspect as it does emotional. The difference- he won't court until after college, when he starts thinking about marriage. I will think of it now, but I won't get married until after college.
Now, a lot of these points are things I agree with him on. The only question I have is- If he won't kiss someone until he's married, and that makes he and whomever he's with nothing more than friends, then is he planning on marrying a friend? So right now, we've agreed to keep the "boyfriend/girlfriend" title, but no kissing, nothing more than holding hands. I'm fine with that. And we both think it will work for now. He admits that there were a lot of times when he felt he truly loved me(he does little romantic things every once in a while that show that), but he says that most of the time it's not like that. I would die for this boy... and I don't know what to do now. I would rather remain "friends with a title" to help prevent myself from looking for someone else who would give me just the physical aspect- I made that mistake after the first time my boyfriend and I broke up, and I could have that guy arrested if I wanted. But my boyfriend... I could honestly see myself marrying him 6 years from now. I'd rather keep the title in order to stay away from everyone else- and reserve myself for when he's ready- than open myself to the temptation of having another boyfriend like my other ex, the jerk that won't show any emotion and shows only physical lust. Am I right? WHat do I do?
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote:then is he planning on marrying a friend?
I certainly hope so!
I mean -- your spouse has to be your best friend first.
And if proving that you can stand to get along and be with a person all the time without sex is a way to see if it can last, then I understand his thinking.
Many young relationships these days are based on sexual attraction and nothing else. He seems to be wanting to see if it will work the other way around.
FG
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
He's not that interested.
It probably has nothing to do with you - he's just really young and he's not ready. He won't become ready while y'all remain in limbo, though, so the only way to eventually be with him is to not be with him now.
I'm sorry - that sucks. It's hard to love someone who isn't ready for it. I agree with him that a relationship where you don't kiss at all is just friends with a title. You can be friends without the title, and that'll give him an opportunity to grow a little.
I just don't think y'all want the same things right now, and it doesn't seem like that is going to change.
On an entirely cynical note, since y'all have kissed before, if he wanted to keep kissing you, then he would be.
In the self-interest scale - although you love him and so are probably not really focused on that - it will suck your soul to give yourself to someone who doesn't love you back. You so deserve better than that. Your options are not limited to groping or dismissal - there is better for you. Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
I mean, is he planning on marrying someone he's never dated, who is a friend and nothing more? We both promised to save our virginity until marriage- that's part of being a Christian, at least for us(did I mention his beliefs about marriage and courting are the result of his youth group's beliefs, not the beliefs of his main church? He goes to youth group with a friend- not at his main church). It's not the going without the physical thing I worry about. The thing I want most is that "title", as he calls it, to prevent me from going somewhere to find a physical thing, as I know I would be tempted to do. He doesn't really want the title, he doesn't see the point. And I just don't know what to do now. Any advice?
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
Tinros,
I don't mean to talk down to you or minimize your level of maturity... but there are two things that jump immediately to mind
most importantly: let yourself have some fun... not suggesting that you necessarily chuck the no-kissing rule or whatever, but there's nothing wrong with going out and enjoying yourself a little while not having a "title"... whether with "him" or someone else
less so, but still awfully important: you will almost certainly change drastically over the next 5 years of your life and then again over the following 5 years, and chances are, so will everyone you know now. Be concious of this when making choices.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
See, he tells me he loves me every day. And is is romantic, most of the time. That's why I tell him there is a difference in being friends and dating- that the love between friends is different.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
I won't go past a kiss for religious reasons- Jim-Me... today's plan of "having fun" is something I promised to Christ I'd never do.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: The thing I want most is that "title", as he calls it, to prevent me from going somewhere to find a physical thing, as I know I would be tempted to do.
Um....Seriously, this is your problem. If you need a crutch that badly to avoid doing what you want to do, maybe you should ask why you want so badly to do something you don't want to do. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:The thing I want most is that "title", as he calls it, to prevent me from going somewhere to find a physical thing, as I know I would be tempted to do.
You can be the person you want to be - you don't need something outside to prevent you from doing something if you don't want to do it.
quote:He doesn't really want the title, he doesn't see the point.
Sweetie, he is seriously not interested. You mentioned that he started this originally because he wanted to be friends and didn't know how to keep it from being romantic. I think this is as close as you're going to get a straightforward statement of what he wants. Sadly, we can't change someone's mind once they've decided they don't want a relationship.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote: He's not that interested.
Kat - I'm sorry, but I totally disagree with you!
My own son has also adopted these same high standards (not at my instruction, he chose them for himself).
I realize there is a big push within the conservative Christian movement at this time to "re-think" traditional dating practices. What she is saying echoes many current books along these lines.
I think when he began dating her, he was unsure of how to proceed (thus the fact that he has kissed her before) but now he feels comfortable enough with her to really relay his values and feelings about it. He's matured a little and isn't afraid to make a stand.
What is wrong with that? Farmgirl
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Frankly, based on what you've said, I suspect that going somewhere to find a "physical thing" would in fact be an enormously positive experience for you.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
Human beings want sex. It's wired into our bones. But I won't go there because of the promises I've made to God.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
No- I had that "physical thing" once before. I made out with my other ex once, and it was the worst experience of my life, that's why I promised never to do it again. I still feel guilty about that- and it was a year and a half ago.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Human beings also want respect and a happy life. You can trust yourself - you don't need a crutch.
Farmgirl: I'm all for being friends first, but this halfway-romantic/not-really thing is definitely soul-crushing. It's all the committment without the intimacy (I'm not talking physical), and I don't think that's a good idea.
quote:No- I had that "physical thing" once before. I made out with my other ex once, and it was the worst experience of my life, that's why I promised never to do it again. I still feel guilty about that- and it was a year and a half ago.
*hugs* You don't have to do the same thing again - you're a different person now. What you say about your limits stands - anyone who doesn't respect that you don't want to date anyway. You are so much wiser now - you can trust yourself. Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
It sounds to me like you're trying to use your relationship with him as a crutch. If you want "the physical thing" than you will not be happy being his girlfriend (in the way he wants it to be). If you don't want a physical relationship (which you seem to indicate in your last post) that needs to be a decision that you make for yourself and stick to it. It is possible to just be his friend and not go seeking seeking a physical relationship. Don't rely on some "title" to make your decision for you. That's not fair to either of you.
(Edit: my post took way too long and should be up where Jim-Me posted)
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
here's the thing- it started as him wanting a friend, but since then, it's developed into something more. He admits that now, we're more than just close friends. And he loves me- that much I know.
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
You're going to change a lot in the coming six years. So will he. It's hard to imagine it now, but looking back in a few years you'll be amazed at how much you've grown as a person.
I'd suggest you two stay friends, and keep open the possibility of a relationship in the future.
On a side note, while I think it's a good idea to not make sexual attraction the key feature of a relationship, being husband and wife means sharing a connection in mind, body, and soul. You need to find each other physically attractive, and a bit of chemistry is a good idea as well. From what you've written it doesn't sound like he feels this way towards you. That could change in the future, of course, but right now it might be a good idea to downgrade the relationship to "just good friends."
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
I've tried not getting into the physical thing before, but I couldn't. I need help not to. That's where my boyfriend has been the biggest help in my life- keeping me in check. Sort of like an "accountability partner", if anyone else here knows of those.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
I think that at 17, kissing someone you're dating is fairly important to determining whether there are any sparks between you.
Now when I say kissing, I don't mean sex. I mean kissing. Because you're friends and you hold hands doesn't make you boyfriend/girlfriend as far as I'm concerned. I love a lot of my friends, male and female, in the sense that I think they're great people, I want the best for them, and I miss them when they're not around. I hug the girls, and I think they're all attractive, but I'm not interested in dating them.
I know that because I've actually dated enough to know what qualities/opinions are important enough to me to look for in another.
It sounds to me like this guy isn't sure exactly how he feels about you, romantically, so he's being non-committal, setting a date far distant to decide (after college), and keeping you as a "backup" for as long as you let him.
He doesn't know what he wants, but he's pretty sure you're not it. But he cares about you and knows you care about him, so he doesn't know how to break it to you.
I don't mean to seem harsh, but this is how I see it.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote: I'd suggest you two stay friends, and keep open the possibility of a relationship in the future.
I agree with Jhai.
You're young yet. Be patient.
FG
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tinros: I won't go past a kiss for religious reasons- Jim-Me... today's plan of "having fun" is something I promised to Christ I'd never do.
that's not what I meant by having fun, which is why I said you didn't need to chuck the no-kissing rule. Go out and enjoy yourself. Seriously. Without being someone's "girl". It will do you good. And you will find, as was mentioned earlier, that you don't have an either or choice between physical affection and being bonded to someone exclusively.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:Go out and enjoy yourself. Seriously. Without being someone's "girl".
I don't agree with this. If you think it would make you feel bad about yourself, then it will. Don't do anything physically that you have told yourself you are not going to do, no matter who tells you it will do you good. Feeling bad about yourself doesn't do anyone any good.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I can't help but wonder about his sexuality.
We have stereotypes that most males have sex on the brain ALL THE TIME, and perhaps the majority tend in that direction... but there are people who are naturally asexual to one degree or another. It may be that he is more attracted to males than females, but wants to pursue marriage and family because of his beliefs, so this is a "comfortable" thing for him right now.
He may not feel the tug of physical desire towards you. At all.
So what you need to ask yourself is, could you be married to a man who did not desire you? I suspect there are a lot of women who would think they are willing, who years into the relationship will feel unsatisfied and cheated. Don't short-change your future self.
And on the subject of maturity, if *both* of you are mature, you should be able to comfortably discuss these topics with time.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
Listen- most of you are telling me to get into the physical thing. NO NO NO. I WILL NOT, simply because of my faith. It disgusts me when I see my friends make out, and I DON'T WANT THAT in my soul. My body will always want that sort of thing, but I WILL NOT GO THERE. let me make that very clear, right now. As for not having a physical attraction between us- there you're wrong. He broke a promise to himself in kissing me. That makes every time he's kissed me more special than anyone could ever imagine. He tells me I'm beautiful, and he's told me that when he wants it to go further, it will be with me. there is a physical attraction- but in my mind, keeping it in check is more important than letting it run wild.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote: I made out with my other ex once, and it was the worst experience of my life
I respect your beliefs, and I don't encourage anyone (short of the girls I like) to go around making out with everyone in sight. But, there's no religion that I know of that forbids or even looks that harshly on a 17 year old kissing someone in the interest of pursuing a relationship. In Jesus' time, a woman your age who was unmarried was an aberration.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Personally, I think you should ditch having a boyfriend until you're ready to get married. By that I mean, don't get distracted with what can't go anywhere anyway. You've got lots of things to do first, so even if you decided you were mentally ready for marriage, you have made a decision to wait til after college. I say stick with that and try not to get too distracted.
The whole love thing is great, and I don't want to dissuade you from it at all, I just want you to realize that it is very distracting, and can keep you from achieving the goals you've set out for yourself. I think it's possible that your boyfriend realizes that and is trying very hard not to let it get out of hand. You can help him and yourself by backing off, focusing on what you're really trying to acheive right now, and stay friends. Be close, do stuff together, but bear at the top of your mind that the real goal right now is to go to college, get an education, maybe start a career, THEN look at marriage.
I wish you could get to know Hobbes and Annie. They're absolutely the best at this I've ever seen.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:But I'm a lot mroe mature about things like dating than other people my age
So are 85% of other people your age, which is to say, that probably isn't true. I'll say this with as much respect as I can, you don't come across as remarkably mature about dating. There's nothing wrong with this; most teenagers like to think that they're more mature than they are, especially when they're "in love". If you're lucky, you'll be able to look back at yourself during this time and laugh at how naive and self-involved you were. I know I did.
My adivce, this guy isn't all that into you and he's got some issues about dating and sex to work through. Drop the title and see other guys, but don't throw yourself into the physical side of things. Set your limits and stick to them. That way, you don't need to worry so much about another "jerk that won't show any emotion and shows only physical lust". Believe that you deserve better and hold out for it. Also, don't date guys much older than you.
You'll (likely) be going to college soon. You'll (likely) be suprised at how much differently you see the world after a few months there and the same is probably true for the guy you're talking about. Now doesn't sound like the time for you to make any life long commitments. Give it time and don't throw yourself into anything.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
If you say he is attracted to you, I believe you. There was no information in your first post that led me to believe he felt physical attraction for you. And, hey, it happens.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I am definitely not telling you to go and kiss other people. In fact, I think it is a really bad idea, and it sounds like it would be counterproductive to finding the kind of relationship you want.
I just think that you don't need a crutch to stop yourself from being somewhere physically. If you can restrain yourself out of loyalty to him, then you can restrain yourself out of loyalty to your principles. That's a better idea, anyway. That you will always have with you.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote:I wish you could get to know Hobbes and Annie. They're absolutely the best at this I've ever seen.
Um, I'm pretty sure things are over between them. Permanently. Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tinros: No- I had that "physical thing" once before. I made out with my other ex once, and it was the worst experience of my life...I still feel guilty about that- and it was a year and a half ago.
Tinros, speaking as someone who has LOADS of experience on this particular subject, I am here to tell you that a major key to getting past the "need" for physical love is to quit feeling guilty about it.
The major point of being Christian is remembering that you are loved as you are, mistakes, desires, and all. As one Christian to another, I want to suggest to you that if your belief is making you hate yourself for what you've done, you are emphasizing the wrong parts of it.
I will also go so far as to suggest, that if you are feeling this guilty over a make out session as a teenager, that you should probably talk to a licensed counselor about it.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Or, stick to her principles and not do it again. Part of repenting is letting it go, but the other part is not repeating the same mistake. She doesn't want to do it - stop encouraging her to.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote:Listen- most of you are telling me to get into the physical thing.
Um, no. As far as I can see, only Tom has suggested that. Everyone else who is telling you to have fun has been very specific that you can have fun without giving up the boundaries you’ve set. You’re the one who seems to be assuming that “have fun” = “make out.”
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina:
quote:Go out and enjoy yourself. Seriously. Without being someone's "girl".
I don't agree with this. If you think it would make you feel bad about yourself, then it will. Don't do anything physically that you have told yourself you are not going to do, no matter who tells you it will do you good. Feeling bad about yourself doesn't do anyone any good.
Can someone please tell me why everyone (edit: except dkw... thanks Dana!) is ignoring the part where I said I wasn't talking about sexual involvement when I said "go out and have fun"?
I mean play some mini golf or something for crying out loud!
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Bev, really? I didn't know. I admire them both hugely and am sad to hear it didn't work out.
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: She doesn't want to do it - stop encouraging her to.
I am not and I never did... and I clarified this as soon as I saw that she took it that way...
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
It is sad, but they are both comfortable with the decision and looking forward to their missions.
Is this a good place for me to plug writing to Elder Hobbes? E-mail me for his address.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tinros: He broke a promise to himself in kissing me. That makes every time he's kissed me more special than anyone could ever imagine.
Please think about what you're saying here.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote: It disgusts me when I see my friends make out
This is a problem. There's a huge difference between choosing not to do something (especially something as fundamnetal and psychologically tricksy as physical intimacy) and being so wrapped up about it that you get disgusted when you see other people kiss. There's nothing dirty about sex, especially when it's just kissing. You can choose to not do it, which is fine, but finding it disgusting isn't a healthy attitude.
You've had a bad experience with sex. It sounds like this may be coloring your perception at least as much as you promise to God.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
*thinks ElJay has a very good point*
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Jeni--yeah. We actually heard it straight from her when we met up with her in Yellowstone. So we got a pretty good understanding of the situation.
Tinros, I went against my principles about physical intimacy. It was really hard to get over because I felt for a long time that I wasn't strong enough to hold to my principles. It took time and healing.
It helped that I had a nice "safe" boyfriend after that, one who if I told him where the line was, he wouldn't try to push me. I appreciated him so much. I didn't want to pursue anything long term, but he helped heal me, helped prepare me for my future husband (the next guy I dated.)
You can forgive yourself those things. And part of forgiving yourself is realizing that you do have the strength to hold to your principles. Of course, choosing the right sorts of guys to date is very important. Some guys will respect your boundaries, others will try to push you again and again. That is the sort of situation all of us need to stay away from. It is self-defeating, and waits for a moment of weakness to get us to slip. We can't be strong *all* the time, so we need to know how to avoid temptation.
So this guy is one of the non-pushers. He is not the only one out there. Trust yourself enough to find the other non-pushers who won't make you wonder about where you stand with them.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
My maturity is something you'll have to trust me on, unless you get to know me, and THEN you can judge for yourself. I've made a lot of decisions regarding things like dating that my friends think I'm insane about. I promised virginity until marriage to God when I was in 6th grade, and most of my friends stopped being my friends because they thought it was wrong to NOT sleep with someone before you marry them.
I gradutate on May 20, 2006. After that, Matt(my boyfriend) will be going to Sinclair, and I will be going to Ohio State. I'm afraid, above all, that I won't see him anymore. I know, we can write, email, phone calls, whatever, but keep in mind- Ohio State is literally a small city. my sister goes there, and she just finished her freshman year. She has friends that GO TO THE SAME SCHOOL that she lost contact with after a few months.
I set my limits. But when I'm tempted, I tend to break them. That's why Matt has been such a blessing in my life- he's kept me from breaking my limit.
As for marrying after college- here's another thing I forgot to mention. I won't marry anyone until I've dated them for at least 2 years, and I'll only date someone I've known for a LONG time. I really don't want to wait til I'm 40 to get married. really. I have a couple friends who say they are "engaged to be engaged"- they won't marry or get engaged til after college, but until then, they will remain in love, and they will stay true to each other. I don't want to get with someone else and feel like I'm cheating matt out of something that's rightfully his.
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
*seconds jeniwren and everything Squicky has said*
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
For what it's worth, Jim, I both understand what you actually meant and agree with it. I think it was quite clear that you were not suggesting she change her personal rules if she's that set on them.
Also,
quote:I will also go so far as to suggest, that if you are feeling this guilty over a make out session as a teenager, that you should probably talk to a licensed counselor about it.
I completely agree with this.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:For what it's worth, Jim, I both understand what you actually meant and agree with it. I think it was quite clear that you were not suggesting she change her personal rules if she's that set on them.
Ditto.
Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
quote:Listen- most of you are telling me to get into the physical thing. NO NO NO. I WILL NOT, simply because of my faith. It disgusts me when I see my friends make out, and I DON'T WANT THAT in my soul. My body will always want that sort of thing, but I WILL NOT GO THERE. let me make that very clear, right now.
As dkw said, the only person to suggest this so far is Tom. One person is hardly everyone. Your feelings in this post are what should stop you from having a physical relationship with someone. You've made a decision about what you do and don't. That is awesome! Don't doubt yourself by claiming you need to be someone's girlfriend to maintain your strength of will. As for your past experience, we all make mistakes. You have learned that is not what you want to do. Great! Don't dwell on your guilt. Dwell on your conviction that that is not what you want for yourself. Then go out and find friends. Have fun with your friends. And yes, there is fun aside from sex and making out.
If you are afraid of temptation arising, always go out with groups of friends, don't limit yourself to spending too much time with any one person, etc. - recognize what situations may lead to temptation and avoid them.
[ August 17, 2005, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: ludosti ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:feel like I'm cheating matt out of something that's rightfully his
There's no committment until there is a committment. In my own opinion, you're not really engaged until you have a ring (if you plan on getting a ring) and, most importantly, a date. Until then, it's an idea. A nice idea, but nothing binding. He doesn't have a right to anything yet.
I know - it's not very romantic. On the upside, it avoids that queasy limbo state.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
When I say disgusts, I mean I can't stand to see me friends with their hands up each others shirts/pants/wherever. That's private, reserve it. But they're the ones who will tell me that that's what I should be doing. It makes me sick that other people have such disregard for my principals as to encourage me to do things i blatently refuse to do.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
If you're all assuming that I don't get out with my friends and have fun, you're wrong. My friends and I have the times of our lives going to bookstores and playing video games at the mall arcade. We do that every week. I have fun without Matt sometimes. I do. I just have more fun WITH him.
Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
If they encourage you to do things you don't want to, find new friends. If they can't manage to restrain themselve in your presence when you've told them that you're uncomfortable with them doing stuff like that around you, maybe you shouldn't spend as much time with them. Hey, as much as my husband and I like groping each other, we do manage not to do it when we're around other people. It's not that hard to have a little self-restraint.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Hon, you wouldn't have made this thread in the first place if you were hunky dory with the current arrangements between you and Matt.
We are all telling you not to chain yourself to him to keep you from temptation. We all seem to think that is a lousy reason to stay in a relationship.
But if you think it is good enough reason, just accept that things between you and Matt aren't going to change, and that you willingly put up with it in order to keep from temptation.
You can't make him change.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
quote:I won't marry anyone until I've dated them for at least 2 years, and I'll only date someone I've known for a LONG time. I really don't want to wait til I'm 40 to get married. really.
Why does it matter when you get married? What's wrong with getting married late? I don't think you should be in such a rush to get married, or set so many hard-and-fast preconditions on it.
Worry about marriage when it becomes an issue -- that is, when you're in a long-term relationship and you start thinking that you might not mind proposing or being proposed to. That's when you should start talking about it with whoever the boy you're with is. By your own admission this is already your second relationship with Matt, which means you've broken up once before. I think it's seriously premature to start thinking about marrying him.
I also don't think you need him to keep from breaking your self-imposed rules. He can help with that but mostly it's something you have to do yourself.
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
quote:Originally posted by ludosti: You've made a decision about what you do and don't. That is awesome! Don't doubt yourself by claiming you need to be someone's girlfriend to maintain your strength of will. As for your past experience, we all make mistakes. You have learned that is not what you want to do. Great! Don't dwell on your guilt. Dwell on your conviction that that is not what you want for yourself. Then go out and find friends. Have fun with your friends. And yes, there is fun aside from sex and making out.
Tinros, read what Ludosti said here. Read it again. Consider printing it and reading it every morning when you wake up.
I'm serious.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Tinros, I entirely empathize with what you say about finding it difficult to resist temptation. It's a valuable thing to know about yourself.
It's not, however, fair to make Matt carry the bulk of the burden. By that, I mean that with true partners, there are certainly things that you are better at than he is and vice versa, but on convictions of belief, you must carry your own weight. It's a burden that IMO will squash the life out of your friendship. And really, the friendship is the most important part at this point.
I do think that when we know we have weaknesses about ourselves, we should have a friend who keeps us accountable. Someone who loves us and will be willing to tell us the truth when we least want to, but most need to hear it. With women, I think it's vital that this friend be another woman. That's hard when you're 17, since girls relationships are still maturing, but perhaps you could find a young woman who would help you firm up your own convictions and help you deal with temptation. I have such a friend -- she knows the worst of what I've done, what temptations I struggle with, and always tells me the truth. I wouldn't trade her for the world.
Posted by theresa51282 (Member # 8037) on :
What would be the harm of being friends for a while and then later reevaluating your relationship? If you both aren't sure you want to be dating now, then you should wait until you both really want that. I am getting married in May. Paul and I broke up once early on in our relationship because i wasn't sure that I wanted to be in a romantic relationship with him at that point. If I had stayed dating him, I could never have fell in love completely because I never would have really committed my heart. Waiting until I knew I wanted to be dating him allowed me to give the relationship a real chance to succeed.
What I am trying to say is being friends for a while in no way precludes getting together some time in the future and may actually increase the chance that you can find a lasting love with the person.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
Matt and I decided to be friends the first time we broke up... and ended up not speaking for 9 months. I don't want that happeneing again, especially not since we'll both be leaving high school. jeniwren- you're right. I shouldn't make it matt's responsibility to keep me pure. I'm going to think about this for a while, and if you want, I'll let you all know how it turns out.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Tinros, I'd really like that. I admire both you and Matt for having high ideals, and have hopes my children will make similar choices. I'd like very much to know how you're doing.
Posted by theresa51282 (Member # 8037) on :
Why when you stopped dating did you decide to no longer speak? It seems like at least one of you is not really into trying to make a relationship work as friends if you can't even manage to speak to each other without dating especially if the break up isn't of the bad variety but rather just a choice to give each other time to decide what you want.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: It disgusts me when I see my friends make out, and I DON'T WANT THAT in my soul. My body will always want that sort of thing, but I WILL NOT GO THERE
This is particularly why you need to do "the physical thing."
And I'm not even talking about sex, mind you. Heck, I'm not even talking about third base.
You appear to me to have some very conflicted, very anguished, and very broken attitudes towards any expression of physical affection and/or desire. This is remarkably unhealthy. In other words, your repulsion has become so intense that it's turned into a sort of morbid attraction -- unless it happened the other way around in the first place.
You're glad to be dating a man who's shown no physical attraction to you at all because you believe you're so weak that you would be unable to resist "icky stuff" with a man who did show some attraction. As several people have pointed out, this might very well be shackling you to a loveless marriage, perhaps even to someone who's a closeted homosexual; I speak here as someone who has seen that happen to one of his friends in exactly this way.
Go out. Date. Have fun. Kiss people -- or, at the very least, figure out why kissing someone would be the end of the world.
It's hard for me to think of your relationship as healthy because it seems to be built entirely on a principle of avoidance -- and I consider avoidance to be inherently unhealthy anyway. I knew a few girls growing up who were involved in Baptist churches so strict that they were required to wear skirts and were forbidden from any physical contact with boys, including handshakes, because the alternative might lead them into temptation. All but one of them was pregnant by 19.
Posted by Hamson (Member # 7808) on :
I don't think your using the words 'friends' or 'boyfriend and girlfriend', like I understand them.
quote: Matt and I decided to be friends the first time we broke up...
What were you breaking up from in the first place? You weren't doing more than holding hands, and just treating each other like friends in the first place. So wouldn't breaking up just mean giving up the title? And isn't that what you wanted to keep in the first place?
quote: ... and ended up not speaking for 9 months.
How can you be friends, and not speak to each other? Friendship is all about communicating, and trusting, and having fun. So if Matt just wanted to be friends with you in the first place, how come when you tried 'dropping the title' and becoming friends, you didn't talk to each other?
You should probably see a consular about these matters.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
Tom, I don't think you understand how strong my beliefs are about not going past a kiss. It's a religious promise I made to GOD HIMSELF. If I break that, I'll have a hard time forgiving myself, let alone asking God to forgive me. I'm not repulsed as in, I'll NEVER go there. Just not before marriage. What disgusts me is when I see my Christian friends, who supposedly have the same beliefs I do, stick their hands in places they don't belong. It's a part of "staying away from youthful lusts" that Jesus talked about.
Theresa- When Matt and I broke up the first time, we both got very, very angry that we hadn't been honest with each other. We were both so scared to talk to each other because we didn't know how to be friends again. In a way, we still don't. And this time, just now, I found out that he hadn't been honest with me, when he told me he was being honest. It hurts. But he's promised to be honest from now on, seeing the effect it had on me... I don't know what to do though.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
I admire your decision to wait for physical intimacy until marriage. I agree with the others who have said that it needs to be your decision and your responsibility to live up to that decision. No one else can do it for you. It is not easy, so continue to avoid temptation (but in a different way than carrying around a meaningless label).
It is my opinion, however, that if you have to proclaim your maturity, you're not really mature. That's okay. You don't have to be mature right now. This doesn't mean you're not more mature than your peers, you probably are in a lot of ways. But leave yourself some room to mature and grow even more. Your experiences over the next few years will really help with that, and your tendency for self-reflection will _really_ help. You'll find yourself changing and refining what you believe, and that's okay, too. Don't worry, that doesn't mean you'll suddenly think it's okay to have lots and lots of sex. But you'll probably come up with a lot more reasons to support your decisions and become ready to live up to them in and of yourself.
Just give it time. This will all work out. Now is not the time to fight for this boy. Now is the time to get ready for college and to make new friends, have new experiences, and figure out what your faith will mean to you as an adult.
-Katarain
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
I'm going to second Tom.
And about only dating someone you have known for a long time; I think this is pretty naive. It leads to a "friends first" strategy, and that's ridiculous. Being friends under that "friends first" mindset isn't friendship at all. It's not even a relationship. It's just some absurd limbo that will cause you both a great deal of anguish.
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tinros: Tom, I don't think you understand how strong my beliefs are about not going past a kiss. It's a religious promise I made to GOD HIMSELF. If I break that, I'll have a hard time forgiving myself, let alone asking God to forgive me. I'm not repulsed as in, I'll NEVER go there. Just not before marriage. What disgusts me is when I see my Christian friends, who supposedly have the same beliefs I do, stick their hands in places they don't belong. It's a part of "staying away from youthful lusts" that Jesus talked about.
Ok, but do you feel this strongly about the other sins you probably commit on a regular basis? If only sexual matters make you feel this horrible, then Tom's diagnosis is still correct. It's not about your relationship with GOd, it's about your views on sex.
Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
I agree with TomD (j/k about the angst)
I also think you need some counseling. Not because I think your quest for 'purity' is wrong--far from it! I am wondering about your motives, though. Is this a covenant between you and your Creator, or a reaction to some trauma?
Human beings need physical contact, particularly from their domestic life partners. I'm not even talking about sex (to echo TomD).
Best of luck.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote:What disgusts me is when I see my Christian friends, who supposedly have the same beliefs I do, stick their hands in places they don't belong.
Out of curiosity, are these the same friends who encourage you to do the same? If they are actively encouraging you to do so, then they do *not* have the same beliefs as you.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
Yes, I feel that way about every other sin in my life. I'm trying my hardest to stop all sin in my life- as is the goal of every true follower of Christ. I made these decisions about dating before I ever had a boyfriend, before I got into high school even. Everything in my life is based on what I think God wants me to do. As for couseling- I've seena psychologist before. It didn't help, and my family doesn't have the money to send me back.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
The only friends I have that do not encourage me to do those things are the friends I have at my church. None of them go to my school, I don't see most more than once a week.
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
When you get to college, there ought to be free services availible. I know that doesn't help you know, but keep it it mind for the future.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
TomD, I disagree. I think her reaction is so strong because she's young and naturally passionate, not because she's conflicted. Most teenagers don't have a lot of subtlety.
I do agree about avoidance, though. I'm not too jazzed on "rules against having sex", but rather like to think of it as a conviction to save (like money) certain actions and thoughts for the future spouse. Just like if you spent your money on something frivolous when you meant to save it for the house you want to someday buy. It doesn't mean you can't still buy the house, but it does mean that you won't have as much toward that house than you intended. It might also mean that you don't get as nice a house as you'd hoped. It's not a perfect analogy, I know, but you get what I mean. No need to dwell over the mistakes, but you can't *undo* the mistakes either.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
When I get to college, I won't have time to see a counselor, not with the major and minor I'm choosing.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Tinros, I am an Orthodox Jew, and in the really religious circles, dating really is just a prelude to marriage. Boys and girls are schooled separately, socialize separately, and dates are arranged for the object of matrimony. Unmarried men and women do not touch, even hands, much less kiss.
I'm telling you all this to let you know that I understand where you are coming from with your level of religious observance.
That said, the same feelings that struck Beverly also struck me in reading your post. I wonder about your boyfriend's sexuality. He may be closeted or in denial about his feelings towards men. Some questioning gays like having a "girlfriend" that is "just a friend" for the straight cred that it confers.
He may not be consciously using you for the straight cred; he might be trying to convince himself, too.
So, just be friends with this guy. Friendship is not an exclusive relationship. You are certainly free to count him among your friends while pursuing other friendships. If you are not looking for a romantic relationship at this point in your life, well, that's OK.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
***NON-RELIGIOUS TYPES LOOK AWAY***
quote: I'm trying my hardest to stop all sin in my life
You will fail.
Utterly. Unequivocably.
You can not do this.
It is only through Jesus that you can have the victory over sin. He gives the strength and the ability. If you continue to try it on your own, you will fail. You must accept that your acceptance of Jesus saves you. As you study His word and grow in Him, he changes you. He tells you what parts of your life you need to work on with His help. We can't change ourselves. If we could, we wouldn't need a Savior. Read Romans for more on righteousness by faith, sanctification, and the law.
-Katarain
***Okay.... you can look now....***
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
trust me, he's not gay. We've discussed that. I won't go into his reasons, or mine, I just need to ask you to trust me on this one.
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
Tinros - I have two majors (Mathematics and Economics) and two minors (German and Philosophy), work around 15 hours a week, and I still have plenty of time to kick back and chill. You will too, most likely.
Edit - So don't let time constraints stop you from getting professional help, should you feel you need it.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Katarain, I really like reading your posts.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
Katarain, I know that. That's what I meant- I mean that I'm taking the steps in my life that will lead me closer to God and farther from sin. I'm letting God change me- that's what I meant when I said trying to stop sin. I'm letting Him tell me what to change, and this was one of those things, the limits on sexuality before marriage.
Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
If you don't think you have time for counseling next year because of your major/minor choices, you might want to take a second look at your choices. I say this out of love and experience. You cannot be an effective student and neglect your health.
It's like a waitress saying she can't spend money on good shoes, even though she spends her worktime on her feet. Eventually, her feet and legs will fail her and her source of income will be compromised.
(Was that an over-extended metaphor? I apologize.)
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
Tinros, Well, read Romans anyway.
jeniwren, Appeal to my vanity, why don't ya? Thanks. Anything you like in particular? (I can put it on a list of things to do more often.)
-Katarain
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
regardless of time constraints, I really just don't want to see a counselor. The last one told me it was all in my head, and if I just denied the fact that I was suicidal for 7 years, the feelings of depression would go away. She was wrong, and I'm still suicidal at times.
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
I've been part of a support group for chronic illnesses at my college - the hour a week I spent in that group more than paid for itself because I brooded less on my own time. Most counseling only takes an hour or two a week, and over time, it really does help.
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
quote:How can you be friends, and not speak to each other? Friendship is all about communicating, and trusting, and having fun. So if Matt just wanted to be friends with you in the first place, how come when you tried 'dropping the title' and becoming friends, you didn't talk to each other?
You should probably see a consular about these matters.
Talking to a counselor might be a bit extreme, but it does definitely help to talk out these matters, but maybe not necessarily here where you're going to get many different opinions that might just cause you to be even more confused.
It can be difficult to change the status of your relationship with someone and then expect everything to be the same as before. It's like asking out a close friend and they respond by saying "that's sweet, but I don't think of you in that way." The good response would be "No problem. We'll just go on as if nothing ever happened." The reality, however, is that it can be awkward and confusing to try to know how you should act around the person. Any change in a person's perception of their relationship can be that way, but the best way to overcome it is by making the effort to talk through it.
Regarding the friends first approach...I don't think it's absolutely necessary, but I think there are some benefits to that. First, it kind of releaves the pressure on both people when you start out the relationship with the assumption that you can be just normal friends without having to be overly worried about what the other person thinks about you. Secondly, your concept of a person can be very distorted when you're dating them, but if you've already been friends first, then you have a clearer view of what that person is like. Thirdly, I think it can be easier to resume a normal friendship with a person you've dated if you were friends first. Although, I think the very big risk is that dating a good friend can sometimes ruin a good friendship.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
Am I just a seriously messed up person? I've been able to find logical reasons to prove I'm insane before...j/k
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
Sounds like you had a bad counselor - they're not all that way!! Most of them are very good, in fact. Don't let one bad apple convince you that the whole batch is rotten.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:I won't marry anyone until I've dated them for at least 2 years, and I'll only date someone I've known for a LONG time. I really don't want to wait til I'm 40 to get married. really.
I know you are frustrated because you think we don't understand what you're going through, and how it's not like how things are for most kids.
Everyone your age thinks that.
Your life is ultimately your own, but the reason so many people have posted in so short a time is because we all recognize one or several variants of mistakes we all made when we were your age.
I think rules about who you'll marry, how long you'll know them beforehand, how long the engagement will be, and what point of your life all this will happen in are incredibly short sighted. Why all the restrictions? Guidelines are OK, but you're severely limiting yourself when there are already plenty of outside factors that will limit who you can be with.
There's age, religious beliefs, history, experience, geography, timing, career, and your own self-esteem, to name a few. I can't even begin to describe how bad an idea I think this is. You want to know someone before you get engaged. That's awesome. But you are saying, "It takes x length of time to get to know someone". And that's not something that can measured in time alone.
I have people I've been friends with for 10 years that still surprise me, and not in minor ways. Ways like, "Wait a minute, you're left-handed?", or "Since when do you play the saxophone?".
I've also met people that, after one week of serious hanging out and talking, know more about me than my own brother, and vice versa.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
It really seems to me like you've decided what you want to do and are expecting the people in this thread to advise you to follow that same course. Whenever anyone has suggested you do something else, you've said "you're wrong, trust me," "I don't want to," or that you're doing what you believe god wants/expects.
Sometimes the best thing to do isn't the thing you want to do or even the thing you think you should do.
I think if you're going to start a thread about it, which you have, you should at least give the advice you get some thought rather than just dismissing it. Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Tinros, I also feel I had a somewhat similar situation to yours--yet very different in many ways.
My first love and I shared a very deep bond. We called ourselves soul-mates. We wanted to be together forever, and marriage seemed like the best way to do that. But we were of very different religious beliefs and worldviews. In the end, we were terribly incompatable.
But aside from that, while we kissd--a lot--there always seemed to be a point at which he pulled away. A line he wouldn't cross. Because of it, I felt free to be as liberal as I wanted with my physical affection, because he would never try to take it to the "next step".
I knew he was physically attracted to me, I know it to this day. No one could tell me differently.
But... but...
A few years after we went our separate ways (college, and my insisting that I would find and marry someone of my own faith) we got in touch. He was dating a man. He insisted that he is not homosexual--that he is *bi*sexual. Though, to my knowledge (I do not know) he has either not been with any other girls, or he has been mostly with guys.
Did this effect his lack of desire to take things to the next step? I honestly don't know. I could ask him right now (we've been in touch lately) but I don't feel comfortable asking at this point.
Sometimes you think you know someone. Then they surprise you.
Posted by reader (Member # 3888) on :
quote: It's hard for me to think of your relationship as healthy because it seems to be built entirely on a principle of avoidance -- and I consider avoidance to be inherently unhealthy anyway. I knew a few girls growing up who were involved in Baptist churches so strict that they were required to wear skirts and were forbidden from any physical contact with boys, including handshakes, because the alternative might lead them into temptation. All but one of them was pregnant by 19.
I think we can safely say that these Baptist girls didn't have strong religious feelings of their own, and so they rebelled against what they considered too strict. Avoidance itself is not unhealthy, when the teenagers themselves believe in its benefits and purpose. Among the more religious Orthodox Jews, as Tante Schvester mentioned, boys and girls have almost no contact at all, and don't touch at all until marriage. None of my friends - in fact, no one in my school - got pregnant before marriage. The very idea of that possibility is ludicrous to me. And yet Orthodox Jews do not have less happy marriages than the rest of the population; in fact, I'd assert just the opposite.
Posted by CStroman (Member # 6872) on :
I recommend "The Mirror has Two Faces"...and yes I am a guy...and yes I'm straight.
Relationships are quite the tightrope. Being Selfless without being a slave. Throwing religion into the mix (nothing against religion as I am very religious myself) makes it even more complicated because there is now a third "person/entity" in the mix of your relationship.
Do what's best for Him, You, Your Relationship, Your Goals, and Your Life.
Easy Enough? Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
quote: If I break that, I'll have a hard time forgiving myself, let alone asking God to forgive me.
Tinros, this is exactly what I mean. All other things, all question of sex and relationships aside, you seem to have your religion backwards.
This is arguably one of the most blasphemous things you could possibly feel, with respect to Christ. The whole point of Christianity is that *while we were yet sinners* Jesus loved us enough to go through Death itself for us. It's been argued that what condemned Judas was not his treason, Peter was nearly as bad, but his inability to forgive himself and ask the same of Jesus.
Again, as others have said, this points to a hatred of physical contact more than a healthy desire for sexual purity. You yourself said you could have the man you were physical with "arrested", if I recall correctly. you also seem to have a love/hate struggle going on inside yourself with respect to your own physical desires... you are disturbed by them, but don't feel able to resist them without external motivations to aid you along.
Again... I have been there, done that, tortured myself for decades and ruined a 12 year marriage and your words sound frighteningly familiar. Please consider talking to a licensed therapist about this.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Tinros, I'm sorry dear but I have to agree with Bev. My first thought upon reading your situtation was that Matt is gay. My second thought was "He's just not interested in you."
If he were interested in you, he would be kissing you.
Either way it's probably best for you to break it off with him before it ends badly. Especially if you're suicidal. Trust me on this. I've been there.
Of course, if someone had given me similar advice I would have ignored it trusting on love to prevail. But life isn't a story book. And love does not conquer all.
Pix
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: Everything in my life is based on what I think God wants me to do.
Hm. I find this inutterably sad. From what you've said on this thread, I don't think your belief in God is really working for you right now.
If you'd like to talk about other philosophical alternatives, drop me a line.
That said, I'll understand if you're horribly offended by this. But it sounds to me like you're trying to patch other holes in your life -- as evidenced by depression, suicidal tendencies, and unsuccessful counseling -- with a desperate longing for God (and/or authority). This is not unusual, but neither is it healthy; in fact, the healthiest people I know managed to break out of this cycle early, under their own initiative.
Usually I would stay silent, but I'm trying a slightly different tack this time. If you're truly unhappy with certain parts of your life, maybe you could find solace in something besides religion for a while. Or even try a different religion. Because it doesn't sound like your current religion is working for you.
--------
quote: I think we can safely say that these Baptist girls didn't have strong religious feelings of their own, and so they rebelled against what they considered too strict.
No, I don't think we can safely say that. Unless you're going to make the argument that everyone who's failed to live up to the ideals of their faith lacks strong religious feeling, and I'm not nearly brave enough to say that in public.
Posted by theresa51282 (Member # 8037) on :
I just get the impression that right now is not the time for you to be dating Matt. You both haven't figured out what you want and how to be honest with each other. It takes times. No one knows what they want all the time. Starting college is a crazy time in life. So much changes when you go off to school. Give yourself time.
You don't have to change your core beliefs and if they matter to you, you won't. But be willing to grow and change and when later if you decide that Matt is the right person for you, you can pursue that relationship.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Or, God does not wish to command in all things, and putting your religion does not relieve you of the obligation of finding out how to live healthily.
You can still do all the standing on your own and self-discovery thing without abandoning your religion. It's okay that it doesn't fix everything - if that were the case, then somewhere we'd be promised that being faithful would mean bypassing life's problems altogether. We can't - the things about which Tom is talking are not incompatible with your religion. You don't have to abandon it in order to find your own place.
In fact, if you abandon one system that unevenly patches the holes in your self-restraint in order to replace it with another, you still haven't solved the central issue of self-determination.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Oh, and perhaps in part because I was able to use my first love as a "crutch" to not get in trouble, it was my next boyfriend that I really got in trouble with.
I was used to playing around with affection and never worrying about getting into trouble. I wasn't prepared to have to say "no" all the time.
I don't mean to blame the whole situation on my previous "crutch", but it occurs to me that it might have played a part.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
I wanted to marry someone with whom I had been friends for several years first. (Not that any of my friends were in the least interesting in that way to me.) I wanted to date for a year or two, and be engaged at least 1 year. After all, how can you really be sure you want to spend the REST of your life with someone without a lot of time?? I wanted to spend a lot of in-person time with anybody I dated--this was after two long-distance relationships that had been very hard.
I ended up marrying someone I had known online for about 8 years. Not a close friend, mind you, but an acquaintance. Less than a month later, we were married.
Sometimes, things just don't work out how you planned. But they do work out. Our 2nd anniversary is next month.
-Katarain
Posted by CStroman (Member # 6872) on :
quote:It's hard for me to think of your relationship as healthy because it seems to be built entirely on a principle of avoidance -- and I consider avoidance to be inherently unhealthy anyway. I knew a few girls growing up who were involved in Baptist churches so strict that they were required to wear skirts and were forbidden from any physical contact with boys, including handshakes, because the alternative might lead them into temptation. All but one of them was pregnant by 19.
It's called "Hedging the Law". It means if the law says don't stick your hand into water up to your elbow you say, don't stick your hand to the wrist in water or, don't touch water with your hands at all.
Depending on the person/people and whether or not they understand the WHY behind the rule, you get reactions that vary from the "rebellious" to the "that rule saved me from a life of ruin".
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
CStroman? Where did you come from? I haven't seen you post in aaaaaaaaages.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Tinros, if you’re still having suicidal thoughts, you need to talk to someone with some training to help you deal with them. If you don’t want to see a psychologist, how about a pastor or pastoral counselor?
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: No- I had that "physical thing" once before. I made out with my other ex once, and it was the worst experience of my life, that's why I promised never to do it again. I still feel guilty about that- and it was a year and a half ago.
This is...just...so...something.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
Listen- my faith in God is what has kept me happy, healthy, and alive for these past 7 years. I won't give that up for anything. My "current religion" is the only thing I've been able to find as logically and spiritually true. Don't tell me to change that.
And really, I have reasons to believe matt is NOT gay OR bi. I won't discuss those here- that's a secret of his that I promised to keep, and I won't betray his trust.
I have to leave for a few hours, but let me end for now with something that I've thought about a lot- "If sin didn't feel good, we wouldn't do it." I'm more concerned with God's long-term plans for my life than anything temporary.
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
I'm just going to quote something twinky said earlier, because I think the perspective is important.
quote:It really seems to me like you've decided what you want to do and are expecting the people in this thread to advise you to follow that same course. Whenever anyone has suggested you do something else, you've said "you're wrong, trust me," "I don't want to," or that you're doing what you believe god wants/expects.
Sometimes the best thing to do isn't the thing you want to do or even the thing you think you should do.
I think if you're going to start a thread about it, which you have, you should at least give the advice you get some thought rather than just dismissing it.
If you're irritated and frustrated with this thread now, that's cool. I can understand why you would be. I do think that you should come back and reader later when the topic has had time to sit in the back of your mind for a while.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
You should be concerned with your long term plans for your life. Not that god can't, or shouldn't, play a big part in them, but it's your life.
Posted by CStroman (Member # 6872) on :
quote:CStroman? Where did you come from? I haven't seen you post in aaaaaaaaages.
I haven't been posting, just watching from a safe distance.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
Aaah. Lurker!
Safe distance? We're dangerous now? Or safe for us? 'Cause I seem to remember some controversy with your name all over it.
-Katarain
Posted by sarahdipity (Member # 3254) on :
I have to agree with the going out and having fun(and yes in the nonphysical sense.) And if your friends are doing things you don't approve of then plan things with them that won't allow for that or hang out with different people. Or start some hobby or join a group that will let you learn something or do something you enjoy.
I think my worry is that you sound like you're using him to be strong for you, or at least that's what you're telling yourself. Does it count that you're not doing something because someone else is basically the reason not because you're actually doing it? If you use him as a crutch because you've messed up in the past you'll never know what a strong capable person you are. Christians believe that God's love and forgiveness is endless. Making a mistake and being truly sorry for it is part of living and learning to be a good person/Christian.
Don't let fear stop you from being the person you can become.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I am confused. Is kissing a sin for Tinros, or not?
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
I think so.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Sounds like she'd like to be kissing Matt, that she doesn't think it's a sin, but she is reluctantly going along with his personal standard on the matter in part because it keeps her from temptaion.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
I dunno. Maybe it depends on the duration and whether or not there are tongues involved?
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
I just laughed out loud at the mental picture of making out with a stopwatch handy.
"Whoa! Nine seconds! NO MORE!"
Posted by CStroman (Member # 6872) on :
Katarain, Both.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I would be interested to know what church/denomination Tinros is involved with.
Posted by CStroman (Member # 6872) on :
quote:Sounds like she'd like to be kissing Matt, that she doesn't think it's a sin, but she is reluctantly going along with his personal standard on the matter in part because it keeps her from temptaion.
Hence why what feels right isn't always what's good for you.
There are not a few 300 lb. plus people here in the US that can testify that although McDonald's may taste good, it's not what's best for you.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote: No- I had that "physical thing" once before. I made out with my other ex once, and it was the worst experience of my life, that's why I promised never to do it again. I still feel guilty about that- and it was a year and a half ago.
My first experience "making out" sounds similar to yours. I was with somebody I didn't particular know that well. I felt guilty about it for quite a while, and set up lots of little rules about what I was and was not going to do in the future. Then I got into a committed, loving relationship and I learned that my rules were not necessary. The reason why the first experience was bad and caused guilt was because of the relationship and the boy in question, not the activity.
I suggest you reevaluate why you are opposed to kissing or even figure out if that is where you stand. Don't go past your standards, but figure out if they're coming from the right places.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
I think she's stated as an afterthought that she believes it, too. (re: not kissing) This probably occurred after a conversation with him about it in which his reasons seemed like good reasons to her, so she adopted his beliefs about the issue. I've been guilty of that in the past.
I think there's too much wondering about Matt's sexuality based on his decision to not kiss until he is married. I had a friend who believed the same thing, and he is now happily married. It is possible for a guy to have convictions and live up to them, you know. It's not only women who decide to be abstinent before marriage--and it is NOT impossible for a guy to live up to such convictions.
My husband had convictions of his own and waited for the right girl--Me. He was actually propositioned several times by different women, and said no. I'm sure it wasn't EASY, but he did it anyway. Since he actually lived up to his principles, I'm sure some people questioned his sexuality, thinking he was just hiding in the closet. Well, they were wrong. Very wrong. So nyah. So don't be writing this guy off as gay or not interested just because he's trying to live up to his moral code.
-Katarain
Posted by Hamson (Member # 7808) on :
I can understand reasons why people are religous, but none of this is logical whatsoever to me.
Could someone please explain to me what it says in the bible, or what some head religious figure says will happen if you obey God, even if you obey things he doesn't say directly? Because if you can't live your life on Earth like you want, always worried about the wrath of God, what makes you so sure that heaven, or your next life is going to be good if God's just going to be ruling over it again? This life is the only one that's 100% proven to exist so far.
I'm sorry if this was terribly offensive, but it's something that I don't understand. It's so far past the logical or emotional reasoning that I base as what you should guide your life by.
This is not to say I don't belive in God. I was born Jewish, and I attended services and hebrew school regularly up until my barmitzvah, and I still attend services on the high holidays. I am not very religious, but I belive in God. I view him as more personal though, like a very powerful friend, that helps other people too. I don't think about God when making decisions though.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Hamson, I admire your courage. Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tinros: Yes, I feel that way about every other sin in my life. I'm trying my hardest to stop all sin in my life- as is the goal of every true follower of Christ. I made these decisions about dating before I ever had a boyfriend, before I got into high school even. Everything in my life is based on what I think God wants me to do. As for couseling- I've seena psychologist before. It didn't help, and my family doesn't have the money to send me back.
Really? You still feel guilty about other types of sins that you commited a year and a half ago?
Posted by sarahdipity (Member # 3254) on :
I think perhaps Hamson's question deserves its own thread and will detract from the point of this thread.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
Well, there's a difference between asking God about every little thing and asking Him to lead in your life. It's about living your life by principles.
For instance... if you're in the cafeteria line, it would be silly to ask God whether or not you should get the pizza or the chicken. If, however, your beliefs include principles of health, you'll strive to pick the most healthy choice. Because you know God wants you to be healthy. Not because he'll smite you down if you pick something unhealthy. Everybody needs some ice cream now and then.
But if you were trying to decide between two job offers, especially if it included moving to one place or another and would affect your family, your education, life, ETC., then you pray for guidance and look for His leading.
Obeying God's leading in your life is about three things---your salvation, your witness to others, and your happiness. He loves us and wants us happy, and that's what his "rules" are all about. It's not about denying and punishment.
-Katarain
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote: I'm sure it wasn't EASY, but he did it anyway.
But that's the question isn't it? Just how EASY is it for the guys who make this commitment? If they are very heterosexual, it is probably pretty hard. But if they just don't have strong urges that way, it may be rather easy for them, even seem to be the natural state of things.
It's not wrong to wonder or ask the question. It is something that ought to be addressed.
In my faith, most of the youth are striving to save sex for marriage. But very few of them choose to save kissing for marriage. It is not asked of them, and most prefer to participate in "acceptable" forms of affection. (Hugging and hand holding included.) These youth feel the desire, and do their best to keep the affection within the bounds they believe God has set for them.
So to me, if someone does require that of themselves when their religion does not teach it, I wonder, "Why?" Do they feel particularly weak? Do they not desire it? Or do they feel that it is part of what ought to be reserved?
If she has addressed it to her satisfaction, that is good enough for me.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"If she has addressed it to her satisfaction, that is good enough for me."
I agree. My concern here is that it sounds like she's experiencing considerable anguish. I don't know her well, so I'm hesitant to be so judgemental -- and slightly ashamed of being as judgemental as I have been, even though I don't think anything I've said is bad advice -- but I can't help but feel like "her satisfaction" would also include, at some point, actual contentment as well.
Tinros does not, from what she's written here, sound content with her situation, and so I find myself questioning her level of satisfaction.
Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
"Sin Boldly." - Martin Luther
just saying...
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
I absolutely agree with you, Tom. I really would like it if we can help her find a path to some kind of peace and happiness.
And it wasn't that long ago that I was a miserable seventeen year-old.
Posted by CStroman (Member # 6872) on :
Hamson, I think one answer is acting Selfishly or Selflessly.
Surely you do things not only thinking of yourself, but thinking of others also.
And if you do things to "please" others and you know or believe there is a God in heaven or supreme being, why wouldn't you do things or keep in mind when making a decision, the revealed opinion of that God?
Some people act SOLELY on what they believe God wants them to do.
Others act keeping in mind a number of factors, God being a large or small portion of that.
Then there are others still for which there is no God in the equation.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote:He says he loves me- and I know I love him- but he doesn't know "what kind of love" it is. He says that since we've agreed not to kiss anymore(going along with his beliefs), that we're nothing more than friends with a title, that there is no difference.
quote: He admits that there were a lot of times when he felt he truly loved me(he does little romantic things every once in a while that show that), but he says that most of the time it's not like that.
quote:I'd rather keep the title in order to stay away from everyone else- and reserve myself for when he's ready- than open myself to the temptation of having another boyfriend like my other ex, the jerk that won't show any emotion and shows only physical lust.
These are some of the statements from your oringinal post that seem like red flags to me.
He doesn't know if he loves you romantically. But you seem to think your only choices are staying with a guy who isn't sure he loves you "that way" and being with a jerk.
Seems to me there is a lot of middle ground there that you are missing, Tinros.
There are guys out there who will truly, passionately love you, not be wishy-washy about it, and be respectful about physical intimacy, and you are missing out on them by being with Matt. Is that fair to you?
Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
quote:But that's the question isn't it? Just how EASY is it for the guys who make this commitment? If they are very heterosexual, it is probably pretty hard. But if they just don't have strong urges that way, it may be rather easy for them, even seem to be the natural state of things.
Probably a new issue for a new thread, but this reeks to me of double standard. Why is it that we expect men to have raging hormones and be constantly fighting the urge to hump everything in sight (so any man not fitting this stereotype is automatically assumed to be gay or asexual or in some other way sexually deviant)? Why do we think any woman who is interested in sex is a whore? Why do we think it's easier for a woman to "save" herself for marriage, but that for a man to "save" himself for marriage involves some hurculean task?
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
This is the perspective I heard from a guy who had the same idea of waiting until marriage, even for kissing:
His reasoning was partly religious, but partly based on the wedding ceremony. He felt that when it was said, "you may now kiss the bride," that kiss should actually mean something. Now if you've kissed and done countless of other things before that point, then that kiss loses some of its value and meaning. That kiss, to some extent, sealed the lifelong commitment. It added more significance to the marriage arrangement and it made that first kiss even more special. That wedding kiss was not just one out of a hundred, but was more symbolic of their commitment to each other. It also meant, "My love for you is so great that I'm willing to forsake my own personal desires."
Now, I do not necessarily agree with this, but I think there is some merit to that idea, and I don't think it should be viewed as harmful when someone chooses to set certain principles for themself to live by. After all, does indulging oneself in certain pleasures really add happiness to life?
Tinros, In six years, he may still not want to get married. Are you prepared for that possibility? The feelings you have now about his uncertainty is only a small glimpse of how you will feel after six more years of anticipation. It may be easier for you to ease back a little on your expectations of where this relationship will lead you. Because of the strength of your friendship, pulling back a little won't harm it at all.
Katarain makes a good point about God's role in people's lives. He wants us to be happy. He didn't give us free will just so that he could decide everything we do. He undestands our limitations and expects us to understand too. "My yoke is kindly and my burden is light." He doesn't want to be a burden on our lives.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I was talking about a guy because this situation is about a guy.
I never implied it didn't work exactly the same way for females.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Wow Tinros, very impressive. Just got back to work and haven’t got to read everything, but wow…. Keep it up and don’t get discouraged. You seem to have an immense amount of patience and I know that in the long road it’ll pay off. Don’t let the world define what you should be. Your faith will keep you strong and together your relationship will be unbelievable.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:After all, does indulging oneself in certain pleasures really add happiness to life?
It can, certainly. That's why we call them pleasures. Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
I guess I was extrapolating on what you (and others) said bev. Your post was just kind of the culmination of it all for me. Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I can tell you right now, if I had to date without kissing... man... I don't think I'd stick with it. And if it weren't very, very hard for me, I'd wonder about my own sex drive.
Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
Yeah, I'm the same way. But that doesn't mean that all people (male or female) are the same, which is why I guess I'm annoyed that because this particular guy doesn't want to get romantically or physically involved with this particular girl at this stage of life, he is seen as some sort of freak (by freak I mean he is seen as being something other than a "normal" man).
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
quote:It can, certainly. That's why we call them pleasures.
I agree. But I there are different types of happiness, and I don't think the type that she's looking for or describing here can be found through physical pleasure.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Well, some might take offense at you calling asexuals, homosexuals, and bisexuals freaks.
But you have to understand, it happened to me. So I'm it makes me alert to that happening in other situations as well.
Posted by CStroman (Member # 6872) on :
quote:It can, certainly. That's why we call them pleasures.
I guess it boils down to the symantics of how you define "Happiness/Joy" whether on a short term physical/biological/psychological feeling level or an eternal level (which becomes a religious issue).
I come from a school of thought of "Wickedness never was happiness" which seems to imply that true complete happiness includes a spirtually filled component. It also has a component of longevity past this life.
I guess I define true "Happiness" as a possbile eternally elevated status of satisfaction.
Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
quote:Well, some might take offense at you calling asexuals, homosexuals, and bisexuals freaks.
That's not what I meant, but I know by the that you understand that. The people in this thread somehow seem to think that there is something "wrong" with him because he doesn't want to kiss her... That's what I was getting at.
quote:But you have to understand, it happened to me. So I'm it makes me alert to that happening in other situations as well.
*nod* You don't want people going through what you went through and so you're sensitive to situations that seem similar to you. I'll buy that. Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
quote:"My yoke is kindly and my burden is light." He doesn't want to be a burden on our lives.
I disagree with your second sentence. Not that I think he wants to be a burden, but you went from a light burden to no burden at all. An easy yoke is still a yoke, a light burden is still a burden. Following God is not always easy. In fact, it's hardly ever easy. In fact, EASY is not exactly the best thing for us, either.
God wants us happy, but not at the expense of our salvation.
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
Hmmm... I see your point, and my mistake. Perhaps it's because of how I view a burden. Perhaps I should clarify my perspective by saying... Working for something isn't a burden if we want to do it. If we want to please God, we will be happy enduring the struggles that it may take. Example - I would be happy working an otherwise miserable job if it meant my family was fed and clothed.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
I interpretted his decision not to want to kiss her as one of recognizing his own limitations. In that he's afraid he won't be able to keep from going farther if he kisses too much. So why kiss at all, since it's hard to guage when a kiss goes too far.
When I was young but not a virgin anymore, I dated a young man who *was* a virgin and who had firm convictions that he was going to stay one until marriage. I ended up being the one to stop us from going too far, largely because I didn't want him to make that kind of decision in the heat of the moment. Kissing led to, you know. It was an easy progression.
Another young man, same convictions, broke up with me because he didn't think he'd be able to stop and it seemed clear to him that I wouldn't either. I remember both boys fondly and am pretty sure neither was gay, though I admit, I wouldn't know. I've long since lost touch with them.
Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
Tinros, I wish you success in your pursuit of happiness. I would caution you, as have others, that your contentment and piece of mind are ultimately inner-directed. If you find joy and fulfillment in your belief in God, that is a blessing, but you must also find joy in yourself. You need to appreciate who YOU are before you'll be able to live your life happily.
You have much to give to this world regardless of who you may or may not marry. Stop thinking of Matt as a safeguard on your innocence. I would suggest that this crutch inhibits you from developing the strength that you crave. I don't intend to indicate that you must be strong, only that you are shamed that you aren't and until you face that demon it will forever haunt you.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
I've always seen it this way: The rules that God sets down aren't here to prevent us from having fun. They're to keep us happy IN THE LONG RUN. God is more concerned with what will happen over the course of our lives. One moment of pleasure, nine months of pain, along comes the baby, and you wish you never had that "pleasure" in the first place. I don't think kissing in itself is a sin. quick, light kisses are fine with me. But...
camus: "His reasoning was partly religious, but partly based on the wedding ceremony. He felt that when it was said, "you may now kiss the bride," that kiss should actually mean something. Now if you've kissed and done countless of other things before that point, then that kiss loses some of its value and meaning. That kiss, to some extent, sealed the lifelong commitment. It added more significance to the marriage arrangement and it made that first kiss even more special. That wedding kiss was not just one out of a hundred, but was more symbolic of their commitment to each other. It also meant, "My love for you is so great that I'm willing to forsake my own personal desires." " This is Matt's reasoning. He wants it to be more special. Honestly, if giving up the physical aspect(or most of it) is what I have to do in order to love him, I'll do it.
As for having fun and spending my time elsewhere- I'm in marching band. We have practice almost every day, football games on fridays, and competitions almost every weekend. Matt isn't involved in that anymore- he quit a couple years ago. Believe me, I keep myself busy.
Yes, I was frustrated. Very frustrated, especially at those who told me that not only were my beliefs on the subject wrong, that my very religion is wrong. I REALLY don't appreciate that. btw, I'm technically Baptist, but it's more non-denominational.
I've made my decision, and I'm going to call matt soon to tell him. Thanks you all for your advice- it means a lot to have the viewpoint of adults that aren't my parents. I'll tell you all how things work out later...
Posted by Theaca (Member # 8325) on :
I read the whole thread, but maybe not as well as I should have. Sorry if I missed something. My concern is that what you guys feel for each other, or at least, what HE feels for YOU is not love. You said he didn't know what kind of love it was, didn't he?
If you're going to spend the next 6-8 years waiting for him to decide, that could affect your life alot. You might miss the man you were supposed to marry while waiting for this guy. You might lose out on lots of chances. I suggest you ask him how he feels about you dating other people. If he doesn't really mind, then, I think it would be good idea to keep your options open.
I'm not telling you to rush out and date though because you said you didn't have the self control to be good. That will come with maturity. Just give it some time and interact with your fellow college students without an "I'm taken, guys. Take a hike" attitude and see how you feel in a few months.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
quote:I wanted to marry someone with whom I had been friends for several years first. (Not that any of my friends were in the least interesting in that way to me.) I wanted to date for a year or two, and be engaged at least 1 year. After all, how can you really be sure you want to spend the REST of your life with someone without a lot of time?? I wanted to spend a lot of in-person time with anybody I dated--this was after two long-distance relationships that had been very hard.
I ended up marrying someone I had known online for about 8 years. Not a close friend, mind you, but an acquaintance. Less than a month later, we were married.
Sometimes, things just don't work out how you planned. But they do work out. Our 2nd anniversary is next month.
-Katarain
I also wanted to be friends first and know the man I married for a long time before I married. I also wanted to marry within my own faith. God, however, had other plans for me. I ended up marrying a man I met on the internet two months before after flying halfway around the world to be with him, and we married 8 hours after meeting in person for the first time. We celebrated our two year anniversary on Monday, and we're very much suited for each other and happy together.
I say this to caution you to be flexible about things that don't matter. Yes, stick to your standards. Do your best to follow what God has in mind for you. But understand that what He has in mind for you is sometimes different than what you think He has in mind for you.
And in all that, I also agree with others about making time for some counselling when you get to college. A good therapist can make a world of difference, especially if you sometimes feel suicidal. Take it from someone who's been there for many years. Therapy made a monumental difference for me, and it has for many others as well. One bad therapist shouldn't stop you from getting some good help.
Good luck.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Ah well. This kind of thing is one reason religion should be banned for minors. It's way too dangerous for them. I mean, what a thing to get your panties in a twist over!
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
quote: Very frustrated, especially at those who told me that not only were my beliefs on the subject wrong, that my very religion is wrong. I REALLY don't appreciate that.
If you come to Hatrack with a problem, and are clearly anguished about it, expect people to question your underlying beliefs as they try to puzzle out a solution. It's the way things work here.
Some people may share your views, others may not. We have representatives from a heap of religions here, as well as a healthy dose of agnostics, atheists and everything in between. If you think your religion is right for you, great.
But people here may not agree. People won't usually tell each other they don't think their religion is working for them, but in this case your conflict appears to be partly related to your view of religion in your life. Please don't be offended by it.
You can be offended by KoM if you really wish. He is the resident anti-religion crusader. Although personally, I thought his last post was kinda funny.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Oh, everyone is offended by King of Men. It is a tie that binds us.
Thanks, KOM!
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
*Takes a bow*
You are welcome.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
You can't be offended by someone whose only intent is to offend.
He cracks me up.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Oh, but JT, he tries so hard and earnestly to offend. It seems mean-spirited not to allow him the satisfaction of seeing us get all ruffled.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Which is precisely why I refuse to be offended.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Tinros, You're musterbating all over the place. That's a terrible way to do things. There's no reason why you must date someone for 2 years before getting married, no reason why you must know them for a long time before that. There's no reason you must maintain a relationship with this guy when you go to college. If you feel you have to remain in this quasi-relationship or else you won't keep in touch, you shouldn't be in the relationship.
Having goals and standards and principles and hopes and such are great, but not musts. They're awful. Life is too big and too alive and too chaotic to fit into musts. The only way that works is to keep it small and repressed and cut off the things that don't fit. That's not order. That's sickness.
If you don't want to do something, have your reasons for not doing it. Evaluate those reasons and make sure they're good ones, make sure they're ones that you really believe. Don't set up crutches (edit: with the caveat that you shouldn't jump into situations that you're unprepared for). A promise to God is nothing but another must. It won't help you. Repression and musterbation rarely work, and when they do the cost is so very high.
You're clearly attracted to sex. You're just as clearly afraid of it. This is completely natural. That fear isn't going to keep you away from sex, nor is saying that you must not do it, nor is seeing it as dirty. What they do is to keep you from developing the personal strength and sense of self and meaning to say no when the time comes and make you feel really guilty afterwards. Guilt is worthless.
And the time will probably come. Denying your desire will make it work in the background. It'll get you into situations that you're not consciously expecting and not prepared for.
Acknowledge it, not as a bad part of you that you must not listen to, but as a natural part of being human. You can choose not to let it guide your actions, but that choice is going to come from a coherent sense of meaning and your self. You'll choose because of the real reasons why you don't want to do this, not because you'll feel guilty or dirty if you did, not because you think that you'll be breaking a promise to God.
This:
quote:One moment of pleasure, nine months of pain, along comes the baby, and you wish you never had that "pleasure" in the first place.
is a very poor, limited view of sex in all it's levels (from holding hands to kissing to the act itself). Sex - again in all it's levels - can be a wonderful thing. It's not just a moment's pleasure. Being at the appropriate level of physcial intimacy with someone can do and be much more than that.
But it has got to be appropriate for you, both personally and in regards to the person you're with. At 17, as I recall, that's a well-nigh impossible thing to determine. Too little or too much, it's really hard to know. The only solution I've ever known is time and experience. Give it time and don't shut yourself off from experience. Don't be afraid of mistakes - they're inevitible - but try to make them small ones.
You aren't as weak as you might think or at least you don't have to be. You've got a lot of growing you could do.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
We broke up.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
quote:But you seem to think your only choices are staying with a guy who isn't sure he loves you "that way" and being with a jerk.
Seems to me there is a lot of middle ground there that you are missing, Tinros.
I agree with Bev. I really feel like we're not getting the whole story here. Most reasonable people would know that there is a happy middle ground between chaste "friends" and sex fiend.
There are plenty of respectful young men who would be willing to court you without taking your relationship with them to a sexual level.
This, in particular, is troubling:
quote:I made that mistake after the first time my boyfriend and I broke up, and I could have that guy arrested if I wanted.
It sounds like you've had some terrible experiences with the opposite sex. While I admire your moral convictions, I wonder if there aren't some unresolved issues lurking in the psyche.
Go out and explore the world. There are plenty of guys out there who will respect your beliefs and yet bounce off the walls because they are so attracted to you that every second of not holding you and kissing you feels like an eternity of torture. Go find these guys.
quote: I am not very religious, but I belive in God. I view him as more personal though, like a very powerful friend, that helps other people too.
I think you're thinking of Batman.
edited to add:
quote:We broke up.
I'm sorry to hear that. I wrote this post before your last post. How are you handling it? Are you going to remain friends?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: Very frustrated, especially at those who told me that not only were my beliefs on the subject wrong, that my very religion is wrong. I REALLY don't appreciate that. btw, I'm technically Baptist, but it's more non-denominational.
Okay, I have to ask this, but you don't have to answer:
Do you go to one of those big "non-denominational" Protestant churches with enormous projection screens, white school buses, and a backing band (which may or may not also do youth-oriented skits)?
Because, if so, I have one piece of advice that might sound entirely out of left field, but which I'm completely serious about: one Sunday, instead of going to that service, find a Quaker service in your area and attend that one instead.
Sometimes a religion is, to quote Terry Pratchett, like a caddis shell.
(Edit: Wow. This moved fast. Best of luck with everything, Tinros -- and keep us posted.)
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
quote: We broke up.
As in, "you dropped the boyfriend/girlfriend title and are still going to remain really good friends" or "there was a big argument and you are not talking to each other anymore"?
Hopefully you can remain close friends. sometimes relationships can get in the way of good friendships, if that makes any sense at all, so this might be a good thing for you.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Gam zu letova-- everything is for the best
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Tinros: I'm sorry, but it will hurt less now than later. I know how hollow that sounds... =(
Posted by Hamson (Member # 7808) on :
quote: I think you're thinking of Batman.
Hey! I don't think any religions are devoted to worshiping Batman and his awesomeness. Yet.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
I only know what you've told us about the situation, but I think you did the right thing. I hope you both are alright with it.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
While Batman may indeed be a good religious role model -- especially since his disciple Robin makes a habit of indicating whether or not anything is "Holy" when it's encountered -- I think Superman is a more obvious choice. After all, Kal-El's been sent by his heavenly father to live among humans and protect them from evil, is most familiarly called by his title, and has died and been reborn.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Scoffers!
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: While Batman may indeed be a good religious role model -- especially since his disciple Robin makes a habit of indicating whether or not anything is "Holy" when it's encountered -- I think Superman is a more obvious model. After all, Jor-El's been sent by his heavenly father to live among humans and protect them from evil, is most familiarly called by his title, and has died and been reborn.
Ah, so the reason why science can't find God is because he's wearing glasses. Things are so clear now.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
No word yet whether his secret HQ at the North Pole is staffed by elves or just Marlon Brando's giant disembodied head.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
You don't want to get married until you're 28?
I'm 21 and already feel like I'm never going to find anyone. If I'm NOT married by the time I'm 28 I'll just give up and adopt.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
"They kept clothed until marriage of course"
I certainly hope so. It's really cold in Canada. Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
This page has made me laugh out loud several times now.
Tinros, sorry about the break-up tonight! Was that your intent when you called Matt, or did it develop into that? I share camus' concerns. I hope that it wasn't too wounding to future chances of friendship.
Losing a good friend is always so hard. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
You know, I had been worried that I came off as the most offensively tactless person on this thread. Thank you, Kaosnix, for making me feel better about myself.
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
I have entirely too many opinions and thoughts on this topic, but just to throw a few things out. . .(not very coherently, given the late hour)
1. You talk a lot about physical intimacy as a marker of relationships, but beyond that you seem to consider boyfriend/girlfriend merely an empty label. What about emotional intimacy? You say you enjoy spending time hanging out with him more than with other people; that's a start, but what about more private activities? Did you talk together alone, share your hopes and dreams and worries and everything else? Did you try never to hide things from him? Did you find yourself thinking, every day, about things you'd seen and done and wanted to tell him later? Whether physical intimacy is kissing or holding hands, it doesn't have nearly as much to do with whether or not something is a romantic relationship than the emotional intimacy involved.
2. While I believe emotional intimacy is more important, physical intimacy also says a lot in a romantic relationship. You say kissing is a hard limit for you; okay. What about other kinds of physical intimacy, beyond holding hands? Embracing each other, running your fingers through each other's hair. . .all those other little things that worldlessly tell the other person how important it is to them to have you there. Physical contact isn't just about lustful desire, and it seems to me like you conflate the two an awful lot.
3. For that matter, why is kissing so tied up with lustful desire for you? Obviously one can have lustful kisses, but don't you also kiss your parents and other relatives as a way of showing your (non-lustful) love for them? (Personally, I also kiss friends with whom I have no past/present/future romantic or sexual involvement and have been kissed in return, just as a gesture of closeness and caring.) Kisses, like other physical contact, can say a lot beyond sexual desire; why do you feel that one will immediately lead to the other?
4. When you talk about sexual intimacy in relationship to your religious beliefs, you do so in a negative sense -- "Breaking my word would be a terrible thing to do." I'm neither Christian nor particularly devout in my own religious tradition, so perhaps I shouldn't try to interpret theology, but aren't there positive reasons for avoiding early sexual intimacy as well? Can you think of it instead entirely in terms of "Postponing sexual intimacy will make my eventual marriage more meaningful" or even just "Postponing sexual intimacy is what God wants me to do"? Behavior based on positive conviction has to be easier to maintain over the long term than guilt-based compliance.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
I'm sorry to hear that you broke up, Tinros. I hope you feel better.
quote:Originally posted by Katarain: I think there's too much wondering about Matt's sexuality based on his decision to not kiss until he is married. I had a friend who believed the same thing, and he is now happily married. It is possible for a guy to have convictions and live up to them, you know. It's not only women who decide to be abstinent before marriage--and it is NOT impossible for a guy to live up to such convictions.
My husband had convictions of his own and waited for the right girl--Me. He was actually propositioned several times by different women, and said no. I'm sure it wasn't EASY, but he did it anyway. Since he actually lived up to his principles, I'm sure some people questioned his sexuality, thinking he was just hiding in the closet. Well, they were wrong. Very wrong. So nyah. So don't be writing this guy off as gay or not interested just because he's trying to live up to his moral code.
-Katarain
I agree that there was too much speculation about Matt's reasons for not kissing, and his sexual orientation. Beliefs can and often do trump desire, and we who have never met him and know little about him should give him the benefit of the doubt.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
quote:We broke up.
For what it's worth, I think this was the right decision. Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
I’m still much more concerned about the depression and suicidal thoughts than about the boyfriend.
Tinros, if you don’t want to see a psychologist, talk to a pastor with a counseling background. Depression is serious business, and unless your talk of suicide was teenage hyperbole you need to get some help dealing with it. Depression and suicide are NOT part of God’s plan for you and there are caring people who are called by God to help people who are struggling emotionally. Insisting on handling this yourself smacks of pride, not of strength.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Yeah, listen to dkw.
Besides, depression sucks. Life without depression is soooo much better.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
So, dkw, since when do you know what God's plan is?
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
<deleted>
apologies for losing my temper.
[ August 18, 2005, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: Jim-Me ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:especially since his disciple Robin makes a habit of indicating whether or not anything is "Holy" when it's encountered
:rotfl:
*hugs Tinros* dkw is saying very wise things.
KOM: You didn't get the memo? This is what happens when you take yourself off the e-mail list.
Posted by Angiomorphism (Member # 8184) on :
wow... I've never been more happy to be an atheist.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
KOM, this is not the right place for that kind of comment.
If you would like to start another thread about religious influence on sexuality, that would be neat.
Personally, I'm looking forward to a new thread about Marlon Brando's giant disembodied head. But that's just me. Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
quote:wow... I've never been more happy to be an atheist.
A person's suffering makes you happy, or is it the delusion that you're somehow better than everyone else that makes you happy?
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
camus, don't waste your breath. Angiomorphism is just a KoM-in-training.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Tinros, let us know how you're doing in the coming days, will you? I'd really like to hear about the stuff you're doing...band, school, whatever.
Posted by Angiomorphism (Member # 8184) on :
No, it saddens me that this young girl is going through all of these problems, but it seems to me that her relationship with god is the only common factor in all of those problems. Don't get me wrong, this girl has many other issues that need to be delt with professionally, but she might also want to (as TomD said as well) closely examine her religious beliefs.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
Matt and I are just best friends now. It was my intent to "drop the title" when I talked to him last night, and we did... and we just talked about anything and everything for over 2 hours.
As for the level of emotional intimacy? It was there. We cuddled on the couch, little things like that, but hands obeyed themselves, and so did eyes. I don't think much of that is going to change, although I will really miss our "tickle wars" on his couch, and he says he will too.
I'm only suicidal every GREAT once in a while. I dont hurt myself anymore, and actually, I don't think I will ever again. Matt gave me enough reasons not to. And I do talk to my youth pastor a lot, he's helped too. I'm doing okay now.
I've decided not to date my senior year. Matt and I are going to homecoming and prom as friends, just because we don't want to miss out on all those senior year perks. But I'm gonna stay single until I've had the chance to reevaluate my priorities, and my direction in life. The things that have been said here(well, most of them) have really gotten me thinking, and I think I'll think some more, if that makes sense.
It still hurts...
But I'll be fine.
Thanks.
Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
I'm sorry that you're hurting but I'm glad you will be fine.
I loved reading: "I'm gonna stay single until I've had the chance to reevaluate my priorities, and my direction in life." It sounds like a really smart and a very mature thing to do. God speed on your journey of self exploration and I hope you are happier and healthier and stronger for doing so. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I don't think much of that is going to change, although I will really miss our "tickle wars" on his couch, and he says he will too.
*whispers* You know you don't have to date a friend to tickle them, right?
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
But it's only an activity that single friends can engage in. If you're married or dating someone ELSE, you best not be tickling that friend of yours. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Im 22 and a I cant imagine married life for atleast six more years.
There are a lot of people who feel this way (and who don't feel ready until they're even older, too.) But that doesn't mean you should discount those of us who have different needs and priorities. There are a lot of us out there, too.
*is also 22*
*has been married 2 years and has a 16-month-old*
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:has been married 2 years and has a 16-month-old
Am I doing the math on this one correctly? Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Yup. Pretty much a honeymoon baby.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
I'm just afraid that Matt will look at it as kind of weird if nothing like that changes. He has a pretty much "hands-off" policy.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Oh, I got in tickle wars with my friends all the time when I was your age. If he's that big on his personal space, maybe he has his own issues.
You should find someone else to tickle with, then. It's good for you. Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Licking, though, is usually only common among Goths.
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
Tinros, I read your latest few posts with pleasure and relief. Please keep your chin up and keep considering, not only what others have said, but what you said here as well.
good luck and have a great senior year!
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Licking, though, is usually only common among Goths.
Yes. Mutual nail-painting as well.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
now THAT made me laugh.
Posted by dabbler (Member # 6443) on :
*innocent look*
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
No, seriously, dkw. How do you know that suicide is not in your god's plan? After all, as someone is sure to point out every time I mention natural disasters, 'death is not the worst thing that can happen to a person.' Certainly Yahweh has ordered the death of a lot of people, even entire nations, for crimes committed by their ancestors.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
KoM, I would be happy to discuss this with you, but this thread is NOT the place for it.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
The beginning of this thread, at least, reminds me of The Mirror Has Two Faces, which we watched not too long ago. Strikingly similar situation, to some extent. It was an entertaining movie.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
heck, dkw, KoM, use it for whatever you want. It's not like it's stuck to the original topic anyway.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I am happy for you in your decision, your strength, and your maturity, Tinros. Posted by Eruve Nandiriel (Member # 5677) on :
Ok, before I say anything, I'll admit: this was a long thread, so I didn't read all of it.
Tinros, I really admire you and your boyfriend for not getting into the "physical stuff". I'm also a christian, and I was raised on the whole "courtship" idea.
There's a saying: "If you love something, set it free. If it comes back to you, it's yours. If it doesn't, it never was." I think that might apply to you situation. If he is really in love with you, he'll be serious after he gets out of college, like he says. If he's not, he'll move on and so should you. Trust me, you don't want to be tied up with someone who doesn't love you back. You deserve better. And there's nothing wrong with just being friends.
I know there was something else I was going to say....I'll probably think of it later when I'm nowhere near a computer.
(edit: I just read that you broke up. I guess that makes my post somewhat, but not completely, irrelevent.)
[ August 19, 2005, 12:18 AM: Message edited by: Eruve Nandiriel ]
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Sorry to hear about your breakup, Tinros. Are you feeling okay?
It's very important that you don't let your depression go untreated. Untreated depression tends to get worse over time, and it can lead to suicide. Please, please, please, get help. I hope you'll give a psychologist or counselor another shot. Or, ask dkw suggested, a pastor. At the very least, you should mention this to your doctor the next time you have a checkup.
There is no good reason to live with untreated depression. It's a debilitating illness, and it's usually pretty treatable. Going on anti-depressants was one of the best things that ever happened to me. Please get help.
Regarding the relationship issues, you might benefit from continuing to think about who you are and what you really want out of life. Moral guidelines don't always work when they're not internalized. You don't need a boyfriend or a parent or a pastor to regulate your behavior--and you had better not depend on them if you're going off to college. It's hard to do your homework, and eat only one cookie, and go to bed at a reasonable time when you don't have a parent telling you what to do. (Well, those are problems for me, anyway.) But if you realize that those rules are in place for your benefit, then it's easier to follow them on your own. And if rules that you make, or your religion makes, or someone else makes are causing you serious problems, then maybe, just maybe, it's the rules that are wrong. Just a thought.
If you're going to abstain from sex or other behaviors, don't do it for God or anyone else. Do it for yourself.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
*lives in CA*
Just because everyone you know is unhappy doesn't mean that everyone in the world is. I would never think of my parents getting back together, they had a horrible marriage. Doesn't mean I do.
quote:The 2nd did the smart thing and moved in with the guy instead of marriage (for now).
See, I wouldn't consider this "the smart thing", since it's immoral to me.
[ August 19, 2005, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: ketchupqueen ]
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Well, for a new member of Hatrack, I'd say you've gotten off to a swimming start, LordKaosnix.
I can hardly wait to see what other clever things you have to say.
Posted by solo (Member # 3148) on :
Don't be a moron LordKaosnix. You are being deliberately insulting to someone who made no judgements towards you at all. She merely countered your statement with her personal experience. There are many other experiences just like hers. I know of many experiences on both sides. The problems have less to do with age than you think.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
LK, I have no problem with other religions. I have two sisters who live with their boyfriends. I love them anyway. I don't think it's the right thing, but I don't condemn them for it.
And I'm not Protestant.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Step off, Kaosnix. You're a newbie here and you haven't learned, so I'll put it gently: that's not the way we talk to each other on this site. Ever.
You will get banned very, very quickly if you make a habit of that kind of thing.
Try apologizing.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Good grief. You have appalling manners, young man.
Edit it and apologize, please.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Where clearly what she should have attacked is your spelling.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
I thought everyone was being a little harsh on the Lord on another thread.
Never mind me.
Sounds like he wants to get attacked.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Um, if that's what you think I was saying, you need to work on your reading comprehension a little, dear.
I was trying very hard to be polite.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
She is not responsible for the tone you imagined. You are the rude one here. We just don't talk to each other like that on Hatrack.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
No, I wasn't insulted. I was just clarifying.
I happen to be LDS.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
You swore. You called her a fanatic. You accused her of religious intolerance.
We're not reacting to a tone, we're reacting to your words.
And as usual, we're feeding the trolls instead of ignoring them like they deserve, but we usually give people a chance to learn how this community interacts before we start ignoring them. Here's your chance.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
What I don't understand is why he finds it personally insulting that I live in CA. Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
A flimsy attempt to justify his response in an unsuccessful effort to look less like an idiot?
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
Please, I'm protestant, and one of my best friends is Hindu, another good friend is Catholic, yet another good friend is Buddhist... am I religiously intolerant?
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
Oh, and LK, my parents might be getting a divorce soon... and I promised myself I'd never end up like they did. Am I wrong for thinking I'll end up happily married for life? Average life span: 80. Me:17. That gives me... 63 years, approximately, to court and find someone who WON'T treat me like a "pet dog." Do you think I stand a chance?
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
She wasn't putting stars around you living in California, she was emphasising that she lives in California.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
LK are you drunk?
Posted by Hmm216 (Member # 8403) on :
Im sorry but I couldnt ignore it, but somebody needs some spelling lessons. Does anyone else know what Im talking (typeing)about? Every post I see from this person has some horrible spelling in it!
I am not trying to be rude. I normally could care less, but these dont seem to be little typos.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
I can't trace my ancestors further than 5 generations. I know generally where I come from(Ireland, Germany mostly), and I have a very, very strong Catholic background.... but I am actually highly opposed to some Catholic practices. That doesn't mean that I can't like people or have friends in different countries and religions. Maybe YOU'RE the religiously intolerant one?
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
LK, how old are you?
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
quote:Originally posted by LordKaosnix:
And I didnt swear at her. I swore at the idea of me incourageing young marriages. And hey, its not like i didnt cencor my self. Didnt write the acual words did I?
quote:Originally posted by LordKaosnix: like i give a damn about what gets you off.
Tell me again that you didn't write the actual words? Or do you not consider "damn" a swear word?
Surrounding a term or phrase with astriks on the internet commonly denotes that it is a self-referential action. Hence if I typed " *hug* " it would mean that I was giving you a hug. kq grew up in California and lives there now.
This is one of the reasons it's a good idea to "lurk," or hang around a forum for awhile without posting. It helps you to understand how the community interacts, and learn the shorthand.
We recently had someone just start posting after lurking for four years. Why don't you follow his example?
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
Church burning protestants? They burned churches? Funny, I thought they just nailed letters of protest to doors, unless they were seriously screwed up in the head...
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:When you put stars around my liveing in CA, that made me see that you do not approve of California perhaps becouse of personal reasons or just the common stereo types out since the 50's.
When I put "stars" (asterisks) around something, it's denoting that I'm not using a complete sentence, but am "acting" or "being" what is being described.
It's a fairly common practice on Internet fora.
quote:Neh, if i were intoxicated id be lovey to everyone and my spelling would be much much worse then it is now.
Perhaps you need ieSpell if you have that much of a problem with spelling. We consider it courteous here to make sure our posts are as readable as possible for others.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Either that, or it's the comfy chair!
Posted by Hmm216 (Member # 8403) on :
Thank You KetchupQueen, I am glad to know that I wasnt the only one who noticed!
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
And we look at the Crusades, and wonder why Muslims tend to hate Christians.
Luther was the first Protestant. He set the example of peaceful protest. It's not right to say that all protestants of olden times were "church burners." If they were, the Catholic church would have ceased to exist by now.
Love your neighbor?
Posted by Hmm216 (Member # 8403) on :
When was the last time you took an English class? Im not trying to be rude, I am just Curious.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I'm sorry, did you think I had a problem with those terms? I don't. I have a hard time reading some of the rest of the stuff you have posted, though, and was offering a helpful tool to facilitate better communication.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
We're not talking about slang. We're talking about spelling errors such as "fealing" for "feeling," "im" for "I'm," and "biest" for "biased." Along with mydrid others in your every post.
This is not a kiddie board. We value spelling and punctuation. Everyone makes mistakes, but your's are atrocious.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
ElJay Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
See, you're doing better already. See what paying a little attention can do? Now go download that spellcheck program kq linked to and you will be down-right legible!
Goodnight!
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brettly10: ugghhh Does anyone else feel like they are missing something when LK posts. Its like there are parts of a different conversation that only he is partaking in. BC is that you?
Good call. The spelling and punctuation mistakes are a bit forced in his posts. LK's writing looks a lot like it was written by someone deliberately trying to distinguish himself from his true identity on Hatrack. Could be BC, could be Fallow. Meh.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
(I don't think so, for the record. I think he's just used to gamer boards or other places that don't care and where you score points by being rude, so he doesn't know how to play nice yet. He might get there. Worth a shot.)
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
The irony is, I think everyone who posted about LK's spelling errors had at least one of their own in the post where they commented.
*waits to see what hers will be*
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
*curious* Where was mine, rivka?
LK, since you seem to have a problem with spelling, and you were implying that it only gets worse, I was trying to help you out.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
Are you having fun LordKaosnix?
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
"then it is now"- that would be a grammar mistake, one of which I believe KQ was talking about.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:"then it is now"- that would be a grammar mistake, one of which I believe KQ was talking about.
Actually, that's a spelling mistake more than grammar. But I was not implying that anything specifically in what I quoted was grossly misspelled-- just that other things in previous posts were.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
quote: My, my, everyone here so propor.
If this means what I think it means, then the answer is yes. They really are. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
...which is why I offered a free spellcheck program for your use and benefit.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
quote: A little. But then it's always nice to be someplace were people are nicer to you then they are in person.
You're being treated here nicer than you're treated in person?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I almost said that, too, Tammy.
But then I thought I might be accused of being mean if I did.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Not fallow. I think my fallowdar is very nearly perfect, and this ain't it.
-o-
Last I heard, anyway, fallow was back and posting under a new name, and a bit more coherent and less insulting than before.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
The amazing deleted posts!
kq, ok, I guess maybe ONE person manged not to misspell their spelling critique. Although you do have a misplaced comma in another post on the same page . . . Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
One of the disadvantages of living on the other side of the world from the rest of you . . . I miss all the good stuff. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: The irony is, I think everyone who posted about LK's spelling errors had at least one of their own in the post where they commented.
This is what I call "Davidson's Law," in the hopes that it will make me famous across the Net:
"Every post which is made for the express purpose of criticizing the flawed grammar and/or punctuation of a previous poster will itself contain at least one error of a similar type."
Posted by Hmm216 (Member # 8403) on :
Wow, I am pretty new to Hatrack and I did not realize there was a way to delete replies already posted. Amazing!
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
It's . . . The Amazing Hmmmmmmm! Posted by Humean316 (Member # 8175) on :
"1. He only started dating me because he wanted to be friends, and he didn't know any other way to approach it(I asked him out first). 2. He believes that kissing should be reserved for marriage- ANY kind of kiss. He believes that in reserving it for so long, it's mroe special in the end. Now, I agree with him on this(more on that later)- but we've already kissed. 3. He says he loves me- and I know I love him- but he doesn't know "what kind of love" it is. He says that since we've agreed not to kiss anymore(going along with his beliefs), that we're nothing more than friends with a title, that there is no difference. "
Ok, I have to say this and only because I have experience in this area with a good friend. He says that he doesnt know what type of love he has for you and I would assume that he has the same faith as you. I assume this because both of you seem very dedicated to that faith and would find it difficult to be with someone who does NOT share this faith. He has also kissed you before and now says that he wants to wait. Unfortunately, I agree with those who say he is not interested in you. Yet, I feel like I must say that it is not because of you. It is because he is gay and either has not fully realized it yet, or has and is denying it. My friend came to the same conclusion when he realized that kissing girls did not appeal to him. I could of course be wrong, but my experience has told me that this could be the case.
Im really sorry about that too. I know what it is like to love someone and not be able to be with that person. I also applaud you for sticking to your faith and allowing that faith to guide you.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
Humean- trust me, I've said it before, he's not gay. He is VERY turned on by females, if I must tell you all that. We've talked about it, and he expects people to ask him that. If the fact that he wants to wait until he has a steady job and a degree makes him gay, then there are a lot of gay men in the world who "haven't fully realized it yet." I have also, after talking to him, reached this same conclusion, but I am in NO way lesbian. I'd appreciate it if everyone on this thread stopped questioning his sexuality.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Yeah, I have to defend Tinros here. She's objected to this argument frequently, and strenuously, and I believe she has plenty of evidence that he's not gay.
Also, as a guy who placed his morals above his hormones (in high school, anyway), you don't have to be gay to have self-control.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Yep, I also don't see why a man should automatically be labelled as gay just because he has morals and/or self-control. That's just silly.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I find it sad that any man who doesn't want to tempt himself is labelled like that.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Yep. I was similarly labelled, although, being female, it was lesbian, at this one job I had simply because I wasn't willing to sleep with anyone. Whatever keeps their egos intact, I guess.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
That's totally it; they have to "prove" to their friends there's nothing "wrong" with them by labelling the other person.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Of course.
Myself, I'd rather chose to respect those who have morals and self-control. It's so much easier in the long run.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
It's only easier if you care about the consequences of your own actions.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
Wow. I missed Teh Dramah.
Glad to see you guys set him straight. Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
Thanks guys. Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I'd just like to point out that it wasn't so much the "no kissing" that made me question his sexuality, but the wish-washiness about what sort of "love" he felt towards her. The combination of both made me wonder.
So nyah. Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
as he has told me... he wasn't sure if it was romantic love(whioch it sometimes was, and sometimes still is) or the kind of love you feel for a friend(which it is most of the time). Another point- I'm the only girlfriend he's ever had. He's kind of new to this whole thing.
Posted by Humean316 (Member # 8175) on :
Well, I was sharing my experience that told me he might be. I wasnt questioning his sexuality because he didnt want to kiss you or something like that, Ive just seen this type of thing before. If im wrong then thats cool.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
"It is because he is gay and either has not fully realized it yet, or has and is denying it."
Sorry, I took that as an accusation. Sounded like you were very sure of this.
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(j/k about the angst)![[Blushing]](graemlins/blushing.gif)
Appeal to my vanity, why don't ya? ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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ElJay ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Whatever keeps their egos intact, I guess.