This is topic Science Fiction/Fantasy critting group - now LIVE! With an introductory special!! in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.


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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
Fahim and I are thinking of starting one. We've checked out some online, and we're not happy with what we've seen so far. One, which looked to be otherwise excellent, has arbitrary rules for counting crit credits. (We don't want to crit 6 pieces only to find out at the end of the month that none of them count!) On the writers forum part of Hatrack, it's set up so you have a group of half a dozen, and it seems like it's mandatory weekly activity, regardless of what you actually need. Another has a submission backlog of over a month and they decide which works you crit. (I don't want to have to crit something when I can't stand the author's style or the liberal profanity, gore, or adult themes.) Another has crits that consists of two to four sentences of patting on the back with nothing that I would ever call an actual critique. Others . . . Well, let's just say it goes downhill from there.

We're serious writers seeking publication, not interested in ego stroking, but rather in honest critiques. We want to sell our stuff, and that means we need to work on improving it. But like all writers, we can be blind to our own mistakes. Hence the need for good, honest critiques.

To that end, dissatisfied with what we've seen, we're looking at setting up our own. Since a crit group of 2 is hardly effective, we're looking for others to join us.

Now the question. Is this something that any of you are looking for? If so, what are you looking for in a critique group? What are you looking to avoid?

[ August 20, 2005, 04:34 AM: Message edited by: quidscribis ]
 

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Posted by bunbun (Member # 6814) on :
 
I'm a member at one of the sites I think you're referring to, and I can't keep up with the crit requirement for the life of me. I generally crit line by line, and I need a while to finish even a relatively short submission.

I'd be really interested in a group where I could crit on an impromptu basis, as well as submit very short works myself, so long as I don't overwhelm basic one to one crit to submission ratio.

Does this sound fair?

Eve
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
When you say impromptu, how impromptu are you talking about? One thing I don't want are lurkers - people who never contribute. How would it work for you if it was 2 crits a month as a minimum requirement?

We also would set it up so that short stories are critted as is, whereas anything long enough to have chapters would get critted chapter by chapter.
 

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Posted by bunbun (Member # 6814) on :
 
2 per month is about my speed. I am not a lurker by my estimation. I've never actually submitted anything--I've been trying to maintain some semblance of a decent crit count and failing miserably. I think the place where I am now wants one a week, and count super short submissions as a half crit. As I can rarely even get through a 3K word submission in a way (critting the way I do) it's been kind of a struggle.

I like the idea of breaking stuff up into chapters.
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
I think it only makes sense. Of course it would be better if you can get critters to crit the entire novel, but that isn't always realistic. It makes sense to provide the option of critting chapter by chapter, and have the writer supply a decent synopsis so someone else can jump in at the midway mark. I'm not sure. We're in the planning phase, so it's all subject to change.

Yeah, 2 crits a month is reasonable to me. If you know you're going on holiday or have a busy couple of weeks coming up, then no problem - plan around it.

Yeah, by what you're describing, it sure does sound like one group I checked out. Not for me.

Do you have any other suggestions of what would work for you?
 

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Posted by bunbun (Member # 6814) on :
 
I do really like thier guidelines for critiques: honesty, but no ad hominems or personal meanness. I think a vitriolic critique is just as dishonest as the fluffy stuff.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
I am very interested in this, and it comes at the perfect time for me, really.

I'm going to be writing a fantasy novel for my masters thesis. I've been thinking about joining a crit group somewhere for it, but I've been reluctant because I know that I won't be able to keep up with a weekly crit schedule.

What I liked from my creative writing class is that the writer wasn't allowed to speak during the critique of his/her work. Only at the end were they allowed to ask questions of the group. I particularly like this, because writers often feel that they must defend their work, which is pointless. You don't argue with your readers. If they're not "getting" what you wanted them to get, then you need to change something because you can't stand over the reader's shoulders and explain your work as they're reading it. (The authors who insist on "explaining" their work always bugged me. )

Let's see... what I want from critiques on my own work is really for the readers to tell me what their experience reading was like. Where they got bored, lost interest, were confused, got interested, excited, curious, etc.

I'm not terribly interested in grammatical critiques, since I pretty much have that part down, although I welcome corrections when people see those little problems. I also wouldn't be interested in critiquing someone who has major grammatical and structural errors. I don't have that kind of time. I'm more interested in being able to actually critique and react to the story, not having to weed through horrible spelling and grammar.
 

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Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
 
I have a sugestion...run it like Wikipedia where everyone can make comments on the same article. Basically, you post a story or chapter onto a restricted site (i.e. Yahoo group) and then the people in your group can log in and make comments a little at a time, instead of having to do "one" compleated crit a week. Plus the author could post changes and that way you track how your comments were used.
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
Have you looked at this one:

http://sff.onlinewritingworkshop.com/

It used to be sponsored by DelRey, but since it lost sponsorship it costs $40.00 per year. I liked it when I was in it and found several writers I got on well with, whose works I admire. I've been out of it a long time, and it is rather large, but many of the participants form small groups within the workshop. The fee is relatively small, but it helps keep down the number of people who just want to make trouble.

Just a thought.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
Well, I would like people to make critiques before they read other people's critiques. It taints their pure reaction. Like if someone understood a plot point in the story that you didn't get and you read about it in their critique, suddenly you get it too, and you might blame it on yourself for not getting it in the first place. But as a writer, I would be much more interested in knowing that half or some of my readers didn't understand that part.

And as a critiquer, I'm not too concerned with whether or not the author changed things based on my comments. Sometimes I listen to my critiques, sometimes, I don't. Every writer needs to have that freedom. Not that we can't read each other's rewrites, but it would have to be a case by case basis. Usually, the same reader won't be able to give me a good critique of a rewrite because they have come with memories of the first draft. I want fresh reads...because my real readers will only be reading one draft.

If we could get around those problems, but especially the first one (wanting untainted critiques), then whatever format we use is fine.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Count me in, I will give it a try.

I read really fast, and while I am a fairly decent writer grammatically (despite my typos here at Hatrack ) I think my strength is in the overview...not the grammar and sentance structure. Providing I can make that type of crit, rather than a highly technical one, I would be very interested. I might have a few submissions of my own but probably not for a while.


Also, I really like fantasy, and to a lesser extent Sci-Fi, so this is righ up my alley.
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
bunbun, I completely agree. Meanness is not welcome. Honesty, yes. They're not synonymous.

Katarain, I agree with what you said. I personally think there's nothing wrong with discussing a critique. I don't think it's okay to critique a critique, but that's not the same thing. Discussing a critique if something is unclear makes complete sense.

I also understand what you mean about untainted crits. A couple of days ago, Fahim and I joined a crit group, and we ended up critting a couple of the same things. He'd discuss certain parts of the crit with me before I got to it, and it totally affected me. I don't know how to do that on a group level, though. We're looking at setting this up as a forum/email group, so I don't know that it would be possible to guarantee that what you're talking about won't happen. But we can certainly explain in the intro that it would be in their best interests not to.

Stone Wolfe, thanks for the suggestion, but neither Fahim nor I are fond of that idea. There are too many problems with it.

Olivet, thanks for the suggestion. I'll check them out. Oh, they charge $49 a year now.

Kwea, I hear ya. I'm a grammar nazi (ask Fahim), and I do better with that kind of a crit rather than an overview. I think strength is in our diversity, and one type of crit is not better than another - they're all necessary.

Anyway, he's going to install the software to a subdomain tomorrow and we're going to start playing with it. He thinks he's got the forum software sorted out in terms of what we need and what will work out best. I'll post a link to the test forum so y'all can play until we get the permanent one up.

Thanks for all the comments.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 

quote:

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We're looking at setting this up as a forum/email group

Anyway, he's going to install the software to a subdomain tomorrow and we're going to start playing with it.

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If you run into issues, I've got good forum software set up and plenty of space and bandwidth. Let me know.

Dagonee
 

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Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
 
Just to clear a few things up, I'm a member of the Hatrack writing forum and that's not quite how it works.

People who set up a group through the writing forums decide how they want their group to run. They recommend no more than six members so that people don't get overwhelmed, but it's really up to you.

For people who just want to occasionally critique/be critiqued, without the pressure of a group, there is the Fragments and Feedback forum where you post a small portion of your work and ask for readers. This is also where you build relationships to find people for a group.

I know you guys already have things figured out, but I wanted to post this so that other people who are looking for a good place for critiques will actually have the correct information.

The Hatrack writing forums are a very good place for serious writers seeking publication. Non-serious writers sometimes join, but they don't usually stick around.

--Mel
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
I was a part of two Hatrack Writing groups, in rapid succession. Most of both my groups didn't speak English very well. Two of us from the original group kept up with each other and limped along for a while, but we were never given a spot on the forums (I think because there were only two of us left).

Then, I was invited to join an existing group, which was promptly disbanded because they had been together for longer than a year (or something along those lines).

I have decided that, somehow, I'm just not meant to part of a Hatrack writing group. I decided not to fight Karma.
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
I also volunteer webspace. I also have the ability to install a wiki on my site. I actually think the wiki is a cool idea. Dunno exactly how it'd work though.

I also think this is an excellent idea. My only other question is, does it HAVE to be scifi/fantasy only? My current WIP has an...ethereal...piece to it, but I wouldn't classify it as scifi or fantasy, exactly.
 

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Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
 
They don't really work like that anymore. Now it is set up a lot like what you guys are doing here: a group of people who already know each other (from the forums usually) decide to start a group. They set their own rules as to how they will be running things.

I know that at first they were trying to start up groups immediately, but they stopped that because of experiences like yours.

I'm not trying to convince you to join a Hatrack writing group, I'm just saying that things are different now. And it looks like you guys are setting up just what you need. Good luck with your writing!

--Mel
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Mack, keep in mind that not all fansasy is epic GRRM stuff. DeLint is a perfect example of a more modern fastasy, adn he defies genere at times as well.


I would say that if it has an element of the fansastical I would be wiling to read it...either in the group or one on one.

As I said, I read really fast most of the time.
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
theCrowsWife, thanks for clarifying. The information is appreciated.

One of the reasons we're looking at doing things this way is because we think, with a larger group, there's a lot more flexibility. You're not stuck receiving crits from or giving crits to the same five or six people. Another thing - I can understand disbanding after a year for a group that small. It makes total sense. But with receiving crits from a larger population base, you don't need to disband.

mack, the reason we're looking at restricting it to science fiction/fantasy is because there are different requirements for publishing as compared to romance, historical, mystery, etc. It doesn't make sense to have a romance writer crit a science fiction story when they honestly wouldn't have a clue what the conventions are, what's been done to death, or that sort of thing. Same as I wouldn't expect a fantasy writer would make a good job of critting a historical.

One thing to keep in mind, though, is that within the realm of science fiction/fantasy, there are a lot of subgenres and a lot of differences between the subgenres.

If you wouldn't classify your piece as science fiction/fantasy, exactly, what would you classify it as? Perhaps it's as simple as learning more about the subgenres to figure out if it does actually fit?

I think that's one thing we're going to have to add - a section with a listing of the subgenres and examples of each so people know where their stuff fits, if it does.

Dag, thanks for the offer. Luckily, Fahim has a reseller account and he's a programmer and a sys admin for an ISP. In other words, he's actually fairly ideally suited for this. I'll let him know, of course.

Thanks for all the feedback! And yep, we went from this afternoon, thinking about it in passing, to this evening, definitely doing it. And it took me until two days ago just to convince Fahim that giving and receiving crits were a good idea. Sheesh! Can you say whirlwind?
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Whirlwhind.



 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 

quote:

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Katarain, I agree with what you said. I personally think there's nothing wrong with discussing a critique. I don't think it's okay to critique a critique, but that's not the same thing. Discussing a critique if something is unclear makes complete sense.

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Sorry, I often get misunderstood there. What I mean is, it is unproductive for an author to explain defensively what he was trying to write about to his readers. If they didn't get it while reading, it's too late. However, discussing critiques, especially for clarification and to get ideas is a very valuable tool.

quote:

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I also understand what you mean about untainted crits. A couple of days ago, Fahim and I joined a crit group, and we ended up critting a couple of the same things. He'd discuss certain parts of the crit with me before I got to it, and it totally affected me. I don't know how to do that on a group level, though. We're looking at setting this up as a forum/email group, so I don't know that it would be possible to guarantee that what you're talking about won't happen. But we can certainly explain in the intro that it would be in their best interests not to.

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Well, could it be made standard practice to send critiques directly to the writer's email address, rather than posting to the entire forum? Or, a more general rule/suggestion can be implemented reminding people to write their own critiques first before reading others. I think that is something people would willingly comply with and the few who don't won't matter too much.

I think having people with different critiquing styles is a great idea. It's always nice to have a grammar nazi point out things you missed as well as the overall type of critique. (Not that those are the only two types of critique out there.) I write fairly well, but I'm not a grammar nazi. I still make a few mistakes here and there. What I would want to stay away from is people who have atrocious grammar that impedes understanding.

How big are you thinking of making this forum/email group?

I like the idea of joining a hatrack writers group over on the writer's forum side, too, but it would take some effort to build a reputation over there and to find a competent group. As I'm writing this novel/thesis, I would like a dedicated core of a few readers.

-Katarain
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
See, that's exactly what I'm not sure about.

My first novel involved the Sidhe.

The second much more about the ghost world of a kid.

The third...well...the basis of it comes from a short story of a girl who is cast out from a colony because she is incapable of hearing their gods.

Lemme know if you need more info in order to figure out where they belong.
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
Katarain, I'd sign up to be a core reader for you. My independent study my senior year was writing a novel. I got the most serious, harsh professor I could get. I expected him to tear it apart.

While he didn't tear it apart, his crits were invaluable.

He also wrote praise on the title page.

Coming from a man who rarely gives praise, I promptly framed the title page and it now hangs on my wall.

Anyrate, I certainly understand the journey of writing a novel.

Is it your first?
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
Fantasy.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Mack, those sounds like fantasy to me, for the most part. Not too sure about the ghost one, but close enough...
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
I once put up a story that Ty and I wrote in collaboration (It was mostly his, I just did a polish and wrote a part that dealt with a second character), and had some guy on a group tell me that my main character (a male) didn't act like a real man at all.

It was posted under my name, but with an explanation that it was mostly written by Ty. He wrote the "unbelievable" male character. The critter, in this case, had his head up his... Er, he was making assumptions because it was posted under a very girly name (which mine, sadly, is).

The same character had the nerve to tell a writer (a Marine who was posting from overseas) that his Marine characters were unreallistic, because all real men only talk to each other about 'tits'.

The workshop, as a whole, started sending his crits around and basically making tremendous fun of him.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
Yes, it is my first. It's an ambitious undertaking, but I don't really enjoy reading or writing short stories. I have done it, though, with okay to good to better results, so I know that I have the ability to write short stories. I'm much more interested in novel length.

I would love to share it with you on a chapter by chapter basis. I would also be interested in doing the same for you.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
I actually would prefer a few chapters at a time, if possible, providing they are already written. I can get a feel for teh characters then, and a grasp on what the wold is like....


Although I have done chapter by chapter work too...to be honest I hate waiting for the next chapter...lol..
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
Good idea, Katarian. I did a similar thing with my ongoing novel, and found the encouragement from my fellow Jatracqueros very helpful, though you may consider joining an actual crit group if youy are after detailed analysis. (I still have a healthy back-and-forth going on with writers from a writing seminar I was in in college. Several of them are now somewhat established and really great about coherent feedback.)
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
I guess I think like...elves and trolls when I think of fantasy, even though intellectually, I know better.

Katarain, what I noticed when transitioning from short story to novel is that there's a different technique to it. To me, when I was working on my first novel, that was half my battle, learning how to write a novel as opposed to a short story. Pacing, plotting, consistency, all that jazz. It's neat to see the progression. In my first novel, you can see all the kinks and bumps and transitory problems. It's a decent story, but it isn't great by any means. My second one went pretty well, but I rushed the end (I really should rewrite that).

Anyway, I'm definitely interested.

I know that I'm working through a rough spot in my current work. I wrote about it here. I'm still trying to make myself face the fact that I might have to scrap pretty much the entire 150 pages I've got so far and start over. >_<
 

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Posted by kwsni (Member # 1831) on :
 
I would be willing to critique, but I rarely get any thing of my own written, much less finish anything. I'm mostly fantasy, though I read a lot of Science fiction, but I'm willing to critque almost anything.

Ni!
 

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Posted by larisse (Member # 2221) on :
 
I am game for the critiquing part for now. Not ready for the submissions though. I will be. I want to gear up for NaNoWriMo this year. I finished last year, but my story is still a WIP. I want to not only reach the 50,000 word goal for this year, I want to have a workable first draft. I think that getting back into critiquing will give me a mental boost to doing some actual writing.

I used to have someone I could send my writing, but I haven't done so in so long I doubt he even remembers that I write at all.

Most of the story ideas I come up with are within the genres of Science Fiction, Fantasy and a bit of Horror.

Oh, and Olivet, I still remember the chapters from your novel. I thought they were well-written and had some great characters.
 

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Posted by larisse (Member # 2221) on :
 
mack... did your WIP start out as a short story? It sounds familiar.
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
Larisse, THANK YOU.

If I can see before the end of the month, I'm taking it up again. I finally had the last next bit fall into place, and I'm excited about it.

Mack, your stuff works as contemporary fantasy, though it could also go the LIT route as magical realism.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
makillian... and any others who are interested, I could email you the better of the two short stories I wrote last year. It's not fantasy, although I've been told it has a slight sci-fi feel. The other story is fantasy, and serves as a preface to the novel I'll be writing. I'm not satisfied enough with it, though. There are things that bother me. For instance, if I were to post the first 13 lines on the writer's forum, you wouldn't even know it's fantasy. It also doesn't quite grab attention enough.. For me. My readers seemed to like it. (They're too kind, methinks.)

But anyway... if anybody's interested, post here and I'll email it to you. Probably later tonight or tomorrow.

This isn't a request for a critique. The story is finished. I'm sure it has plenty of room for improvement, but I'm not interested in doing anything more to it. Just thought someone might be interested. I'd like to read some of ya'll's samples as well.
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
I could totally go for that!
 

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Posted by larisse (Member # 2221) on :
 
I wouldn't mind reading it, as long as you don't need comments right away, Katarain.

*Correcting a gross injustice because I miss typed the name. Now I feel bad. .

[ August 17, 2005, 12:18 AM: Message edited by: larisse ]
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 

quote:

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What I mean is, it is unproductive for an author to explain defensively what he was trying to write about to his readers. If they didn't get it while reading, it's too late.

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quote:

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Well, could it be made standard practice to send critiques directly to the writer's email address, rather than posting to the entire forum? Or, a more general rule/suggestion can be implemented reminding people to write their own critiques first before reading others.

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Fahim's working on a solution that's both forum and email, so in theory, it ought to solve that. We'll see if it works. But regardless, your comment about untainted crits will become a part of the critting instructions, so thank you. Which I have to write up.

quote:

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What I would want to stay away from is people who have atrocious grammar that impedes understanding.

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quote:

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How big are you thinking of making this forum/email group?

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quote:

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As I'm writing this novel/thesis, I would like a dedicated core of a few readers.

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That would make life much easier. We'll see what we can set up.

Mack, after much discussing, Fahim and I are going to leave things fairly flexible, at least in the beginning, so I'm going to say bring it over and get it critted when we get this up and running, which should be a day or three. Although, from what you're describing, it sounds like fantasy anyway.

larisse, kwsni, and anyone else, you're all more than welcome to join us.

We bought the domain name this morning, and Fahim's happily busy setting it up. And now I need to go and write up instructions and all that. Urgh!
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
Cool beans!
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
Katarain, shoot me the stories over email, I'd love to read 'em. If you want, I will send you Unliving.

larisse, yeah, the WIP started out from my short story Unliving. Though, it's branched out a lot more than that and has taken a couple directions I didn't expect it to. o_O

quid and fahim, this is great.

olivia, yeah, I figured, but I'm always never too sure. I think that's why I have such a hard time categorizing what I write...it could be either contemporary fantasy or magical realism. AND...I also remember your WIP and certainly want to read more.
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
Do yoyu think it counts as scifi, or fantasy? I'm sort of having the same questions as you about that particular question.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
Olivet, larisse, and mackillian,

Story has been sent. Let me know if the attachment worked.

-Katarain
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
And we nearly have the forum up. We're close to beta testing. And I've got a draft of the rules and how to crit. So yeah, moving forward. We're looking at beta launch probably tonight.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
quid,
That's pretty exciting. It sounds like it will be awesome.
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
Came through just fine. *wince* I may not get it read before the cut on my eye, and afterward it may be a few weeks. I wasn't thinking about those delays when I volunteered to read for you. I hope it's not a problem.
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
Olivet, just take care of yourself. Your eyesight is important.

Okay, everybody, it's ready for beta testing. You can sign up now at http://www.speculative-fiction.com

Also, although it says that you need 3 crit credits before you can submit, any Hatcrackers who sign in before August 31 get an automatic credit of 2 crit credits and the minimum crit credit is waived. (Fahim's demands made this more complicated than I wanted it to be. Blame him. )

Also, although this isn't yet a part of the terms of service when you log-in, you will be required to provide your real name.

That is all.

Let the games begin!
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
Oh, take your time, really! It's just a fun (I hope) little story... Nothing to stress about. I wrote it for creative writing class and it already got a grade. So again, don't worry about critiquing it. Don't waste your time, because I'm working on my other project now. I just want people to read it, that's all... Take it easy on your eyes.

*goes to look at the new forum*
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 

quote:

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Understand that if your manuscript is so riddles

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riddles=riddled

So where will the real name go? Should we sign up with a pseudo-username or real?
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
Put your real name in the name field. You can use any user ID like you do here. But I do believe that, regardless of user ID, it will show your real name.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
*tries to work up her courage to... share her real name....*
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
I'm not sure if I'm supposed to laugh at that, or, um, commiserate. Help?
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
Alright, I'm heading to bed. We'll do more work on it tomorrow, but at least the basics are there.

As a comment, Katarain, Fahim and I haven't discussed whether we want the full name to show with all posts, or whether we're okay with a user ID showing. We do know, though, that we, as owners of the list, have to have the real name. Fahim's already gone to bed, so we'll discuss it tomorrow morning.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
You can laugh at it.

On a related note... will the forum be readable to anyone, or do you have to be logged in?

-Katarain
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
You have to be logged in to access any part of the forum.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
Okay. Goodnight. I'll be interested to hear what you two decide.

The site looks awesome, by the way.
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
Thanks. G'night.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
Ah. Well, I really like that. Then only people who have taken the time to make accounts are reading our stuff. Makes me be a little easier on the name thing, too. (It's not just my paranoia. My husband would get cross with me if I put my real name out there. He's very concerned with security.)

This is gonna be great for my motivation.
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
It HAS to be password protected. Writers will be putting their manuscripts up there. If it's viewable to anyone, then it counts as publication, and that will hurt a writer's future sales on that manuscript. That's also the reason we have to have real names. If people are anonymous, they do things they wouldn't do if they give their real names. So we have to find the right balance.

Believe me, I understand about paranoia. Paranoia is always a good thing, far as I'm concerned.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
You're supposed to be in bed.

I hadn't thought about the manuscript thing. You're very right. And yeah, for this I think real names makes sense. Also, it looks nifty and professional for people to be posting under their real names.

If the password protects us from a google spider then that's even better.

Have you guys thought of making people submit a piece to get accepted? Just a thought... not a suggestion. It probably would get overly complicated to do that anyway.
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
Fahim changed the forums so it shows userID, not full name, with all posts. He did that yesterday, but I hadn't noticed. Oops. He's working on changing it so that, when you look at member lists, you can't see everyone else's full name. But since he's also working a real job at the same time, it could take a while, but will be today if it can be managed. I'm going to see if he can add a field for real names so that if people are comfortable exposing their real name to everyone else, they can. If that makes sense.

Because the forum is password protected, googlebots and spambots and every other kind of bot can't get in. They can't see email addies or names or any of that stuff.

About getting people to submit a piece to get accepted - the problem with that is that we'd then run into the problem of people getting a crit then disappearing before they reciprocate, and we don't want that. But thanks for the suggestion anyway.

And now I'm off to finish setting things up and write more FAQs and all the rest of that.
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
Member lists are now disabled, so no one other than admins will be able to see your name and other personal details. However, you can still email and pm each other if you choose to.
 

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Posted by larisse (Member # 2221) on :
 
quid... first of all... I cannot believe that domain name was available. You would think someone would have snapped up every way possible to describe Science Fiction/Fantasy. Hmmm.... was speculativefiction.com taken? I bet it was. Anyways, I have it bookmarked.

mack... I thought I remembered that one. I still have my critique of it. Not sure I sent you it or not. I am sorry if I didn't. I can't wait to read the expanded version.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
I registered..
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
larisse, what, you bookmark it, but you don't join? I can't believe the gall! Seriously, sign up. We won't bite. Much.

Kwea, yeah, I saw that. Unfortunately, I then logged out. We're having some issues that Fahim has to fix, so actually, at the moment, neither of us can log in. Of all the odd things to have happen. But he's working on it. And we have to wonder if other people can log in, or if it's just us who are having the problems.
 

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Posted by larisse (Member # 2221) on :
 
Me... afraid... nah. Paranoid... sure. No, I just hadn't realized I could register at the time. Biting can be fun when done in the proper place.
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
And Fahim tells me you're registered, so, welcome!

And yeah, I'll second that biting thing. But that's reserved for Fahim.

Fahim has to reinstall the forum, so don't register in the next couple of hours. If you do, we have no idea what will happen. He says that most (all?) of those who've registered thus far should be saved. We hope.

I'll keep ya posted.

Meanwhile, I'm writing up instructions on how to critique. Yippee.
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
Fahim has to debug, so don't go there until further notice. There are some problems that he hasn't been able to fix despite much cursing and swearing and gnashing of teeth.

I'll update when it's working again.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Very cool, this sounds like fun! I might not submit anything as I haven't written anything in years, but I love reading other peoples stories.
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
Would I be welcome with my YA fantasy? Or are you aiming toward those writing for adults only?
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
Yep, it's perfectly fine, Belle. Come on over! Uh, but wait until it's working again, eh?

Kwea, we totally want you to submit stuff, too. One one submission a year - it's not that bad! Besides, you wanna write. You know you do. . . *pokes Kwea*
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Well, that means I get at least ONE years worth of reading before I am booted...


We will see, I have had some ideas for writing at least some short stories lately, so I can probably write something up in a year...
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
quid, obviously there wasn't enough discord with fahim's gnashing of teeth.
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
mack, he's gnashed enough. He's going for dentures tomorrow.

He's deleted me and him so many times that we can't keep track anymore with what's going on. Now I can log in fine, but not to administrator priviliges. Sigh.

Otherwise, the forum's working again. Happy day.
 

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Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
 
Hey Quid, did you ever get my email?
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
Yep, I did. And I responded. I take it you didn't get it? I'll send it again.
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
Blacwolve, I haven't heard back from you after emailing a second time. Did you get the email? If you're having a problem, you can also PM me on the forums.


Okey dokey smokey. The forum is up and running and ready for submissions. Remember, August is free crit month, so it makes sense to submit manuscripts for critting. Read the instructions here first.

The documents are in the order you will use them.

Fahim is having some minor problems with the database, which he'll work on fixing tomorrow, but it's nothing that will affect anyone until crit crediting time, and it'll be fixed before you need it, so go ahead!

Let the games begin!
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
It's now fully functional and ready to go.

Also, there's an August special. See, for every crit the critter does, the critter receives 2 crit credits and the author is charged 1 crit credit. But for everything submitted before the end of August, there are NO charges to the author. So, whether you have a whole lot of short stories or an entire novel, submit away!

Think of it as incentive to get the ball rolling.
 

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Posted by JaimeBenlevy (Member # 6222) on :
 
Quid, is there a limit and a maximum length for the stories on there? I'm interested, I like reading other people's stories and making crits on it. I also have a story of my own I'm working on, but I only have about 8 pages written so far, and the story is not yet finished. I'm having trouble continuing it because I keep reading back and fixing it. Would I be able to submit what I wrote so far so I could get crits on that?
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
I'm not sure my novel would meet your guidelines... So I don't know what to do. I'd like to join, but...
 

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Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
 
Huh, this looks like it could be really helpful. And I don't currently have a workshop. I think I'll sign up!
 

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Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
 
How would this work for novels, especially novels in progross? Is each chapter a separate submission, and would reviewers get later chapters even if they hadn't read the earlier ones?

When you want to do a crit, do you pick from a list or are you assigned one randomly?

--Enigmatic
 

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Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
 
Quid- Found it, they'd both been sent to the junk mail folder. Sorry about that!
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
Jaime, there is no minimum nor maximum length for stories. There is a maximum that applies only to how it's broken up for submission. The maximum length for submission is 16 standard formatting pages, or 4000 words, so if your story is 10,000 words, then split it up into 3 manageable pieces and submit that way. Or if it's a novel, then submit it by chapter, making sure that each chapter fits under the maximum size. Let me know.

But yes, you definitely can submit what you have thus far and get crits on it. If you like, you could also submit the synopsis (if you have one) or plot outline if that would help you figure out your story. Heck, you could submit query letters, one sheets, whatever you want - as long as it's either a story or related to the business of selling a story.

Olivet - without knowing more about your concerns, I don't know. Feel free to email me offlist if what I'm about to say doesn't answer your question. We don't allow fanfic or playing in someone else's universe unless you have explicit written permission to do so. That would be inviting lawsuits, and we're not willing to go there. If your story has violence, gore, language, sex, then you have to give warnings as to what type of adult content it has. We focus primarily on science fiction and fantasy, but if it's another genre, you can post it for crit with the understanding that that isn't the main focus of the site, so you may not get people who are as knowledgeable in that genre.

Destineer - Fahim tells me you signed up. Welcome!

Enigmatic - You pick which submissions you crit. We don't assign anything. I hate groups that work that way, personally. There is, however, a drop down list that shows what's been submitted and how many crits they have, which can help you decide what to start working on. But no, it's completely up to you.

Novels. There are two ways to submit, but either way involves submitting it chapter by chapter. One way is to do it as RFDR Request For Dedicated Readers, which will only work if you plan to submit the whole novel in a fairly short period of time. The other way is to submit the chapters and whoever crits is whoever crits. If that makes sense to you? If you go with the second, I'd also recommend posting a synopsis so those who come in mid-stream can catch up to what's happening.

Blacwolve - no problem! I'm glad you found them and that it answered your question. Glad to have you on board, too!

I hope that answers the questions. If there are any more, please feel free to ask away.
 

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Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
 
I'm a bit confused. I understand earning crit credits, and needing 6 to submit something, but why is the author charged for other people's crits of the author's work? Won't that bring my credit total down? If I write a popular story or one that gets a lot of crits, will I have to crit other stories day and night to keep my total above negative numbers? Or am I missing something obvious?
 

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Posted by kwsni (Member # 1831) on :
 
Livvy, I think your book might be a little ...graphic for a board, but it's certainly something I would post about and see if anyone's interested.

Ni!
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
Chris - charging the crit credits to the author brings down an author's crit credit balance, and it's intended to be that way. We need to make sure that no one receives crits but never does them - it's not fair to the critters who do all the critting, nor is it fair to the author, who doesn't learn as much as he would by also critting. This way keeps everyone honest, so to speak.

quote:

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If I write a popular story or one that gets a lot of crits, will I have to crit other stories day and night to keep my total above negative numbers? Or am I missing something obvious?

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First, you get 2 crits automatically for every crit you give, but the author is only charged 1. The author can give you more if your crit was exceptionally inciteful, or can deduct if it was useless, but the default is 2 crit to the critter and 1 deducted from the author. The author is always charged 1/2 of what goes to the critter.

This also means that, for every crit you give, earning 2 points, means that you can receive 2 crits, which deduct 1 point each.

However, you can also STOPCRIT your work after you've received enough crits, so that should, hopefully and theoretically, prevent the problem you've described from happening. Also, we have a report which shows how many crits have been done for which manuscript, so an author can see how many crits have been done on his manuscript, and a critter who's looking at earning crit credits can see who's in need of crits.

Does that answer the question sufficiently?
 

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Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
 
It does, but it still seems too heavily weighted against posting work. Do you charge credits to post a story, or do you just have to have that many to qualify? Say I've done 4 crits, and now have 8 credits. I post a story. Do I now have 2 credits, or still 8?

If I have 8, and I get crits from 10 people, do I now have -2?

It makes more sense to me to be charged credits to post a story, using up the credits I've earned by critting, than it does to charge me for every person who crits me. I would still be encouraged to crit since I would need to build up my points if I wanted to post again. Even if the credits required to post were made higher it would sound better to me.

I'd suggest making the posting cost 8 or 10 credits. I do five crits, I get 10 credits. I post a story. I'm now broke. I do five more crits... and the cycle of life continues.

I don't want to be in the position of hoping no one crits my work because I'm out of points. It may work better in practice than it sounds, I'm just giving my initial impression.

[ August 21, 2005, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]
 

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Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
 
I haven't tried them, but you might check out the standards that critters.org uses (if you haven't already). I don't think the queue system would work for you (they're e-mail based) but the varying points based on manuscript length might help. 1/2 a pt for critting really short works, longer works get 1 pt per 5,000 words read. Point awardance is also dependent on the length of the crit - under 100 words gets nothing, 100-200 words gets half credit, over 200 words gets full credit. All of that encourages thoughtful critting as opposed to lots of "Loved it!" crits, although it could be a lot of work/programming.

I'm speaking from ignorance, I've never been in critters. I am in a critting group but it's e-mail and mostly honor system (you don't crit, people ignore your work). It just seems to me that you've developed a system where the more people crit your work, the worse off you are.

[ August 21, 2005, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
Posting a manuscript doesn't affect your crit credit balance - only receiving crits does. And yes, if you start with 8 Crit Credits and receive 10 crits, you'll have a -2 Crit Credit, which also takes only 1 crit to zero out.

If you have enough crits already, you can STOPCRIT your manuscript, and then only those crits currently in progress would be posted against your manuscript.

Charging an author for crits regardless of whether or not an author receives any crits, never mind any useful ones, doesn't sit well. We'd rather base the system on the value of the crit itself.

While the default value for a critter submitting a crit is 2, which costs the author 1 Crit Credit, the author has the option of increasing or decreasing what the critter receives based on the value of the crit received. For example, if a crit gave an incredibly insightful crit, the author could award that critter an extra 1 or 2 Crit Credits, at a cost to the author of 1/2 or 1 additional Crit Credit. But if the critter gave an essentially empty and useless crit, the author could deduct 1 or 2 Crit Credits from the critter, returning 1/2 or 1 crit credit back to the author. While it's not based on the length of the crit, it's based on the value of the crit to the author.

Also, we ask that manuscripts be broken down into 4000 words or less (16 pages, publication guidelines) to ensure that we have a fairly even playing field with crits.

Yes, I checked out critters.org, as well as quite a few others, and we took bits and pieces from here and there as they felt appropriate. But thanks for the suggestion anyway.
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
Er, and does that answer the question? Or are there still more roaming around your brain?
 

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Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
 
Charging an author for crits regardless of whether or not an author receives any crits, never mind any useful ones, doesn't sit well. We'd rather base the system on the value of the crit itself.

I wouldn't suggest charging for crits at all, only the privilege of posting a story. I do like the author's option to bump the crit credit amount for value received (and that should be charged against the author, so people won't keep bumping credits for friends), I just don't like every crit being charged to the author.

No worries, but I'll probably hang back and see how it works for a bit before committing.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
At first read, I kinda like the idea of charging credits for posting rather than for how many crits you receive. I mean... what happens if you submit and you can't log on for several more days and your credits have gone way negative because people are critiquing your pieces to death.

Also, do you think people will converse on the critiquing threads? Commenting on each other's critiques? And if the author has a question about one of the critiques, is the original critiquer's answer counted as a crit? Will the computer know the difference between questions, conversations, and clarification posts?

I'm not trying to be contrary. Don't worry. Just consider the alternative of charging to submit rather than being critiqued again. I'm sure ya'll have good reasons for your decisions.

-Katarain
 

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Posted by JaimeBenlevy (Member # 6222) on :
 
Katarain, I think you have to take credit for your crits, it doesn't automatically give you points for them. So unless you try to take crit credits for asking a question or making a post in your own submission, the computer won't have to recognize it.
Quid, underneath all the usernames, what does the applaud/smite thing do, and what does the karma rating do?
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
Katarain - we encourage discussion of crits as a means of increasing our understanding about what makes better writing. We hope it will happen - we want to improve our writing, and we hope that everyone else who's there also wants to improve their writing, and by discussing what works and what doesn't, it'll help us. But a critter only gets credit for the original crit, which Jaime correctly said the critter has to take. Any discussion after that doesn't count for points.

The only way for a critter to get crit credits is for the critter to first get them, and secondly, for the author to reward more for value. Nothing is automatically given by virtue of a post showing up in a discussion thread. It has to be initiated by the critter going into the database.

The way we have the system set up, we tie the quality of the crit to the crits that can be received (remember, an author can adjust how many Crit Credits a critter gets), which feels like a much more fair system than anything else we've come across. If we tie the Crit Credits charged to the author just for posting a story, what value does that have to the author if no one crits, or if the crits don't help the author?

Another thing is that you can specify in your original post "No more than 4 crits, please." (Although I'd be inclined to put that note in all caps at the very beginning and again at the very end of the post. ) While that doesn't guarantee that people will read that, it should help in most cases.

Applaud/smite - it's for rating each post by people. Applaud gives a positive rating, and smite gives a negative rating. So, if someone's being cantankerous, for example, smite them for bad behavior.
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
I'm trying not to feel insulted that you thought I'd submit fanfic, for crying out loud.

But I don't do short stories, and my novel does have some violence and sexual content. It was fine, even mild by the standards of the OWW that I linked to before. I just don't want to register and immediately post something that would offend people.

Again, no one in crit groups I've been in has had a problem with it, but... I've only ever had one Mormon really like it *waves at Taalcon* Two if mack still counts.

I'm just not up for condemnation right now. So if my subject matter is a problem, I'd like to know before I join. My novel takes place in world run by women. I think of it as a "feminist dystopia". I got tired of reading all the fruity feminist utopia stories floating around the OWW and said, "Nope. Women with power can be just as evil as men with power. Maybe worse." So, I basically took every terrible thing you hear about fathers murdering their daughters if they think they're not virgins, or 'home correction' or, say, the state of Virginia printing on marriage licences that it actually IS illegal to beat your wife... and turned them around to make the femmes the brutal, repressive force in society.

I dunno, I think maybe some people may have read it and thought that was how I wanted things to be (which it isn't, and I never considered the possibility that people would think that).

I'd like to be a part of this, 'cause I think maybe you guys would get that I'm not advocating anything, just trying to examine certain injustices by turning the tables.

I will understand, though, if it doesn't sound like the kind of thing you'd want in your group.
 

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Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
 

quote:

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Also, we ask that manuscripts be broken down into 4000 words or less (16 pages, publication guidelines) to ensure that we have a fairly even playing field with crits.

---

That seems fairly short to me. For a novel it's not really a big deal to break it down further than chapters, but a lot of short stories are going to be longer than that and it seems a little silly to get a critique on half of a short story, IMHO.

Of course, if what people are looking for is line by line editing, then it doesn't really matter if it's in sections. But to discuss the actual plot and whether or not the story works for you, you'd pretty much have to read both sections... and then what? Post a crit on each, when really what's needed is a discussion on the whole?

Maybe I just have different expectations for this sort of thing. Which doesn't mean anything's wrong, just that it might not be the arrangement for me to join.

--Enigmatic
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
Olivet, me mentioning fanfic was not supposed to be an insult, but information for anyone reading this thread that we can't have fanfic on the forum. If you were offended, I'm sorry.

Now that you've described the story, I still don't see why it would be a problem. Like I've said before, post the necessary warnings so people who's sensibilities will be affected won't have to look at it, and your bases are covered. That's all we ask.

And for the record, just because you write about something does not mean you're advocating that, in my eyes. If someone else thinks that, they better keep it off the forum. This is fiction. Fiction is about make-believe, pretend, playing, and exploring other situations, so again, I fail to see the problem.

Also, while it's true that one of the site owners is LDS (me), the other site owner is Muslim (Fahim), and members of the site are from who knows how many religions or lack thereof. That doesn't matter as far as we're concerned.

So, to repeat myself one more time, I fail to see the problem. Post away. We'll be happy to have it on our site.
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 

quote:

---

That seems fairly short to me. For a novel it's not really a big deal to break it down further than chapters, but a lot of short stories are going to be longer than that and it seems a little silly to get a critique on half of a short story, IMHO.

Of course, if what people are looking for is line by line editing, then it doesn't really matter if it's in sections. But to discuss the actual plot and whether or not the story works for you, you'd pretty much have to read both sections... and then what? Post a crit on each, when really what's needed is a discussion on the whole?

Maybe I just have different expectations for this sort of thing. Which doesn't mean anything's wrong, just that it might not be the arrangement for me to join.

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quote:

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Originally posted by quidscribis:
Olivet, me mentioning fanfic was not supposed to be an insult, but information for anyone reading this thread that we can't have fanfic on the forum. If you were offended, I'm sorry.

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I wasn't offended. I was joking, 'cause some folks know I have written the occassional fanfic parody

quote:

---

And for the record, just because you write about something does not mean you're advocating that, in my eyes. If someone else thinks that, they better keep it off the forum. This is fiction. Fiction is about make-believe, pretend, playing, and exploring other situations, so again, I fail to see the problem.

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On another writing group... I sort of got ... propositioned by somebody who wanted a spanky. At least, I THINK that's what he meant...

Anyway, I had to flush the email address and get the mods to let me go back with a new name and tell my regulars where to find me. It was horrible. An over-reation, you might say, but I want my online dealings to above reproach. My marriage is sacred to me, and I'd hate to think anything I did online might hurt my husband, or reflect badly on him, so I'm a bit over-cautious. I even tried to hide tha I was a woman when I first joined Hatrack. *blush* seems silly now that I ever worried.
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
Enigmatic -

If you break the story down into two parts so it's posted on two threads to break up the critting, you would post a 1/2 and 2/2 as a matter of course anyway.

But if you wanted the manuscript to remain intact, you would post it in one thread. You could post a comment at the top saying something like "This is a long short story, but I don't want to break it up. I will, however offer double crit credits." Or something like that.

Then, when posting it to the database (because that has to be done in order for the critters to get their credits), even though it's posted in one thread, you can post it as "SS Enigmatic 1/2" and "SS Enigmatic 2/2" (only you would use the title rather than your screenname) to give critters the opportunity to claim double the credits.

Does that make sense?

Olivet -

quote:

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I sort of got ... propositioned by somebody who wanted a spanky

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