Remember a month or so ago when you were shaking your head at the idea that most of the rank and file Nazi soldiers were not, in fact, evil men? I saw this article on the BBC News site this morning, thought of that conversation, and thought I'd share.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Nice story. So wait….. because you like football and swimming that makes you normal? Yes, there were probably a number of people just swept up in the masses. But doing evil is what makes you evil. And it took more then just the handful of leaders to kill the millions of people in the holocaust. Did you see the pics of the British bombers going white water rafting? Does that make them normal? I really think your actions speak louder then anything. Sure, I bet most members of Al Qaeda would enjoy a good game at your favorite sport’s complex. And I’m sure a most of them really belief they’re doing good in their hearts. Thank goodness the winners get decide who is evil.
Posted by Heffaji (Member # 3669) on :
quote:Thank goodness the winners get decide who is evil
By that same token, the victor writes history and might determines who is good and evil. So, it could easily be the other way around in this circumstance if Germany had prevailed.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
We'd be reading about the reactionary forces that tried to stop the glorious achievement of National Socialism, and how some of them weren't evil but merely misguided dupes of the existing power structure.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I don't know if I agree with the guy's premise or not. On the scale of good and evil, he certainly isn't on the extreme with Pol Pot and Hitler, but I dont think he falls in the middle area like most of us do.
To suggest that getting up in the morning, going to a soccer game, hitting the town with some French girls, then going to work and driving people around to kill POWs (or whatever really happened) is normal and regular is a little twisted. Murderers aren't made normal by doing normal things, they are made evil by the acts they do that set them apart from normal people.
On the other hand, fear is a powerful motivator. If he felt he was doing what was best for his family, and refused to do any of the deeds himself, but played a secondary role, I'd call him fearful (perhaps even cowardly, but that's a strong word), before I called him blatently evil.
There are ever so many fine lines to be crossed when dealing with something like this.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Obedience to Authority. It's literally barely over 200 pages and is one of the most important books ever written about the nature of evil. If you don't understand these experiments, I don't think you can understand what the Nazis did or how they were successful.
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
quote:But doing evil is what makes you evil
Doing evil just makes you wrong. Wanting evil is what makes you evil.
For instance, President Bush does evil, to a small or large degree depending on how much you agree with him. That does not mean he IS evil. It just means he makes some mistakes.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
What did people use as the expression for ultimate evil before the WWII?
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
John Wilkes Booth?
"I did what I thought was right."
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Atheists. Anarchists. Mormons. Blacks. Jews. And for some reason, a 16th century French stonemason named Jacques Fourcade.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
None of those were accepted nearly as universally as Nazis are now accepted as evil.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Thanks Squick--I started to post a link to Obedience to Authority earlier today myself, and realized that I was drawing a blank on both the title and on Milgram's name. I figured it was probably only a matter of time until someone else did it for me though.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Sorry. That started out as a joke. I wrote "The Jews" and then thought that that was a bit tasteless so I went for the Jacques Fourcade joke instead.
Te Nazis are hardly accepted universally as the ultimate evil. We and Europe and Russia and Australia (except for some of the more despicible subcltures) don't like them sure, and the Israelis have what they consider a legitmate beef, but (save Israel) that's pretty much the same groups who used to think it was a lark to go out on pogroms against the Jews and used to teach their children that bad things happened to them because the Jews caused it.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
The Mongols and the Huns were probably once held up as Ultimate Evil, probably (in the Mongols' case, anyway) by a higher percentage of the world's population than any other single group before or after.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
The Ultimate Evil was whatever group you didn't like, often because they did something bad to you (and often because you want to do bad things to them). In Ireland, it was the English. To Catholics, it was the protestants. To the Hutus, it was the Tutsis and vice versa. etc.
The Nazis were not new in either the aims or their actions. Their "universal" evil reputation came about because of their increased technology and population size let them carry it out more effectively and on a wider scale, thus affecting many more people. But the people who they didn't effect don't consider them the ultimate evil and there are groups out there who celebrate their efforts, as they'd like to do pretty much the same thing.