This is topic The Official Spoilerific Harry Potter VI Discussion Thread in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.


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Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
 
***WARNING: Spoilers Contained Herein. Curiosity is not a sin, but one must exercise caution.***


I wanted to instigate this thread like nobody's business and was too impatient to do it in seven days' time. I will, however, post the first spoiler: This link to the Mary GrandPre' back cover art for HPB.

First off--Initial feeling upon seeing it: Green. Greengreengreen. Like the last one was Blue, blueblueblue. I like it though. It's a bit forboding, nothing like the warm tones of the earlier covers. I also like how the children are looking more and more adults. Ickle Ronniekins is growing up...

Second--Things I am sure about: The picture, to me, unmistakenly shows Ron, Hermione, Ginny (there is a possibility I'm wrong about Ginny but I really don't think so), the Dark Mark, and Hogwarts Castle. They look vaguely surprised and frightened (I like Ron's look of "I'm rather frightened but I'm not gonna show it" kind of resolve). There is a figure to the left of Ron that I don't recognize.

Third--Things I'm making up as I go: Green is the color the Avada Kedavra curse gives off, and the Dark Mark was always sent off over the homes of the Death Eater's latest victims. The Mark seems to be shining over Hogwarts Castle, possibly pointing to a battle at the school, which up to Voldemort's downfall had been the only safe place in the wizarding world, according to Hagrid. The figure to Ron's left looks female to me, possibly Luna or a new character. There are also shadows of somethings behind Ginny, possibly other people.

Someone also pointed out to me that if you look along the right side of the cover, you can make out the outline of a cloaked someone riding a broomstick away from the Mark.


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I'm not so high on myself that I think I'll be the first one to finish it, but I will definetely bump this thread by next Saturday night.
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
I bet i'll be the first one to finish.
I'll be devouring that sucker.
I cannot wait until NEXT WEEK
ARG. A WHOLE ENTIRE WEEEEEEEEK! NO!
 

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Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
 
The local newspaper here had a thing going where people could send in guesses as to who the Half-Blood Prince is and other plot-type guesses. They're going to publish some of the entries after the book comes out. "Who?" honestly wasn't something I'd thought about before, but as soon as the question was asked I almost reflexively had an answer. I'll post here under the SPOILER label because I feel fairly confident in my answer on this one, and I'd like to go on record with hatrack.
Potential Spoiler Below
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If the Half-Blood Prince is any character we've already met, my money is on Hagrid. He's half-giant. We know his mother was a powerful giantess, could conceivably be a queen of the giants. He's been gone on important missions to the giants, and the outcome of these missions hasn't been revealed yet. Anyone have a better guess?
</spoiler>

--Enigmatic
 

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Posted by larisse (Member # 2221) on :
 
Okay.... my guess is......
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Lupin. I don't know why, but a few weeks back it kinda hit me that maybe he's the Half-blood Prince. Than again it could be just that I am obsessed with him and my favorite fanfic is one where Prisoner is done entirely in his POV. (The only part I didn't like of that one was when the author decided to interject some of their own fanfic characters from a separate story, but it was only one chapter and half a paragraph somewhere else.) Or maybe it was a delusion of someone about to fall asleep at 4 AM.
 

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Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
 
It is SO obviously Trevor the toad. Or Seamus.

I can't wait for the book. I'm trying to read as much of the preceding ones as possible before next week, as I'm starting my intesive summer class, and I love them even more now than I did before.
 

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Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
 
I'm anticipate this book with a feeling of dread. Literally. Writing this I have a nasty cold feeling in the pit of my stomach. I have prickles up and down my arms.

If I'm like this now before book six, am I even going to be able to pick up book seven!? How does one finish a series that has been a large part of half of one's life?
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
Four days, 13 hours, fifteenish minutes until I can get my HP6! I think they should release worldwide as soon as it becomes Saturday in the UK. Then I could get it even earlier.
 

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Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
 
So it comes out at 7.01 am here.

And I have a dinner party to cook for that night...

I can read it by then!


 

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Posted by johnsonweed (Member # 8114) on :
 
I'm with the folks who think that Hagrid is the HBP!
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
I'm still not convinced that it will be someone we know. If it's someone we know, my money's on Hagrid. But I'm guessing it will be someone new.
 

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Posted by xtownaga (Member # 7187) on :
 
I haven't read any of the books since 5 came out, so I may be wrong about this, but wasn't Harry's mother a first-generation witch (as in all of her parents had been muggles), while his father was from a wizard family. If you go by the whole "pure blood" / "mud blood" thing, wouldn't this mean that Harry is half "mud blood" (well once removed, but still) and half "pure blood" making him a half-blood?

For that matter, could it be Voldermort himself? I'm not sure how either would qualify for the prince aspect, but it could be one of those things that nobody has told Harry (like his god-father's identity until the third book, his true identity until the first book, etc.). I also don't recall knowing much about Voldermort's lineage, though I may have just forgotten.
 

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Posted by Uru (Member # 8108) on :
 
Half Blood Prince

half blooded tom riddle = _Lord_ Voldemort...

Half blood and royalty...

just my guess
 

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Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
 
Rowling has officially stated that the prince is neither Harry nor Voldemort, FYI.

--Enigmatic
 

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Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
 
I hope it's not Hagrid. I think he's an incredibly tedious character, I don't want to read a book that is all about him.
 

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Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
 
Someone dies in the next book!!!

quote:

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"I know who dies," Jim Dale tells CBS News correspondent Mika Brzezinski. He is the one who reads the Potter series for audiobooks.

But don't expect any revelations from him. Dale says he's guarding all the secrets of book 6, "Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince," to protect the magic for children.

"The worst thing is if somebody leaks it to them," he says, "because then goes the great excitement of finding out for themselves."

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I'm worried about the future of Lupin. I have a feeling that none of the marauders are going to live through book VII. First James, then Sirius...Lupin's days are numbered.

though I did hear a fairly convincing argument that Lupin would die a natural death--I mean, he's always described as prematurely aged and sickly because he's a werewolf.

Either way, Lupin dying would make me so sad.
 

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Posted by ailurophobic (Member # 8343) on :
 
I think Lupin's going to be killed by Wormtail's silver hand. You know, the whole werewolf + silver thing.

Also, I think the HBP is someone we've already met. Possibly Dean Thomas, because Rowling said that there was going to be stuff about the HBP in Book 2-- but then she took it out. We've also been told that she inserted Dean's story.. but then took it out.

Obscure and probably useless, but still there.
 

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Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
 
That someone dies in this book has been public for some time. Even in interviews much earlier in the series Rowling has mentioned that towards the end there's more dark elements and deaths of important, beloved characters that would make her sad to write. Thank you for the link, though, because I love the Jim Dale audiobooks and it's neat to read about how he works!

--Enigmatic
 

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Posted by Hamson (Member # 7808) on :
 
This doesn't really belong in this thread, or the other HP one, but seeing as I thought 3 Harry threads would be too much, I'm posting this here.

Harry Potter 6 leaks in Canuck Town

They really want no one to know about that book eh?
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
*bump* for the three days, two and a half-ish hour warning on the east coast.
 

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Posted by RoyHobbs (Member # 7594) on :
 
*SPOILER*

I read that betting organizations have received a flurry of bets from the British town where HP6 is being published.

The townspeople are overwhelmingly voting that the character to die in the book will be....

*draws in breath*

DUMBLEDORE!!

Yes, we all knew it had to happen some time, but I think this is more than a rumor, its a guarantee from people "in the know".
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
I still don't think he'll die until book 7 (though possibly very early on in the book).
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
Yeah, but his father spends just as much time "railing against mudbloods," so it's no likely he'd have married one, is it? JKR also said that because his father's been put away, we'll be seeing a bit more of Draco's dear old mum.
 

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Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
 
I said this in the other thread, but in book 2 Rowling discussed how Hagrid was kicked out of Hogwarts, for that reason, I'm guessing that he will be the half blood prince, wasn't his father a wizard, and his mother a giant?

I am guessing that the half blood prince will be the same as the person who dies. Our best guesses for who it could be (I'm leaving out harry or voldemort/riddle because she has openly said it wasn't):
Dumbledore, but in my oppinion it would work better for him to die in the 7th book
Hagrid, it really would make sense, though she might want to keep him through the last book, since he was the first wizardish person harry met.
Dean Thomas, hmm it just doesn't do it for me.
Draco, we know his mom is a pureblood, but there's little info on his dad other than he's a dumb@$$, so it's possible.


I read somewhere that in one of the last two books, someone becomes able to practice magic late in their life. My guesses on that one:
Filch, but that wouldn't be fun, he shouldn't be developed
the cat lady (ok my brain broke) that lives near the dursleys, also not that fun to develop
Aunt Petunia, see it would make entire sense, even if she isn't a witch, or a squib, she has been said to be "something close"
Hagrid, but he already can
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
I'm kind of curious about the Creevies. Is it normal for there to be two muggle born wizards in the same family?
 

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Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
 
There must be something in the water. I imagine it's pretty rare for that to happen, unless they had a relative they didn't know about.
 

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Posted by Eisenoxyde (Member # 7289) on :
 
You guys got it all wrong... Prince William is the half blood prince. (Diana was a witch.)

Just kidding, if you really want to know who he is, just scroll down.
SPOILER!!!
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Don't ask me how I found out (If I told you, I'd have to kill you.) but I couldn't keep this quiet until Saturday, so I thought everyone here should know right now that Mr. Card will be revealed as the Half-Blood Prince.

Jesse

/very bored right now
 

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Posted by CaySedai (Member # 6459) on :
 
Harry's cousin Dudley. He suddenly has wizardly abilities, which makes his parents think that it's all wonderful, and Harry has to put up with him at Hogwarts.

(could I come up with a more outrageous guess?)
 

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Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
 

quote:

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It is the middle of the summer, but there is an unseasonal mist pressing against the windowpanes. Harry Potter is waiting nervously in his bedroom at the Dursleys' house in Privet Drive for a visit from Professor Dumbledore himself. One of the last times he saw the Headmaster was in a fierce one-to-one duel with Lord Voldemort, and Harry can't quite believe that Professor Dumbledore will actually appear at the Dursleys' of all places. Why is the Professor coming to visit him now? What is it that cannot wait until Harry returns to Hogwarts in a few weeks' time? Harry's sixth year at Hogwarts has already got off to an unusual start, as the worlds of Muggle and magic start to intertwine..

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quote:

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Originally posted by sarcasticmuppet:

quote:

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It is the middle of the summer, but there is an unseasonal mist pressing against the windowpanes. Harry Potter is waiting nervously in his bedroom at the Dursleys' house in Privet Drive for a visit from Professor Dumbledore himself. One of the last times he saw the Headmaster was in a fierce one-to-one duel with Lord Voldemort, and Harry can't quite believe that Professor Dumbledore will actually appear at the Dursleys' of all places. Why is the Professor coming to visit him now? What is it that cannot wait until Harry returns to Hogwarts in a few weeks' time? Harry's sixth year at Hogwarts has already got off to an unusual start, as the worlds of Muggle and magic start to intertwine..

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*link*

first off, SQUEEEEE!!!

I wonder if this means Harry's not going to go back to school. It sounds a bit ominous. Or it could mean Dumbly has something to say not to Harry but to the Dursleys. hmmmm...

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quote:

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Originally posted by sarcasticmuppet:

quote:

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It is the middle of the summer, but there is an unseasonal mist pressing against the windowpanes. Harry Potter is waiting nervously in his bedroom at the Dursleys' house in Privet Drive for a visit from Professor Dumbledore himself. One of the last times he saw the Headmaster was in a fierce one-to-one duel with Lord Voldemort, and Harry can't quite believe that Professor Dumbledore will actually appear at the Dursleys' of all places. Why is the Professor coming to visit him now? What is it that cannot wait until Harry returns to Hogwarts in a few weeks' time? Harry's sixth year at Hogwarts has already got off to an unusual start, as the worlds of Muggle and magic start to intertwine..

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*link*

first off, SQUEEEEE!!!

I wonder if this means Harry's not going to go back to school. It sounds a bit ominous. Or it could mean Dumbly has something to say not to Harry but to the Dursleys. hmmmm...

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quote:

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Originally posted by hansenj:
*twitches*

24.5 hours until I have Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince in my hands!!!!!

*freakingoutfreakingoutfreakingoutfreakingout*

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quote:

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So how DO the members of the Order of the Phoenix communicate with each other?

I was surprised that this particular question won the poll, because the answer (as I've already said) can be found in an already-published book (Goblet of Fire), whereas the other two questions related to book six. But perhaps I was influenced by the fact that I knew the other two questions had interesting answers – and, of course, you will shortly know the answers to those questions anyway!

Members of the Order use their Patronuses to communicate with each other. They are the only wizards who know how to use their spirit guardians in this way and they have been taught to do so by Dumbledore (he invented this method of communication). The Patronus is an immensely efficient messenger for several reasons: it is an anti-Dark Arts device, which makes it highly resilient to interference from Dark wizards; it is not hindered by physical barriers; each Patronus is unique and distinctive, so that there is never any doubt which Order member has sent it; nobody else can conjure another person's Patronus, so there is no danger of false messages being passed between Order members; nothing conspicuous needs to be carried by the Order member to create a Patronus.

And, as many of you have deduced, Dumbledore's Patronus is indeed a phoenix.

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quote:

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I was surprised that this particular question won the poll, because the answer (as I've already said) can be found in an already-published book (Goblet of Fire), whereas the other two questions related to book six.

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Where was that answered in GoF?
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
*sobs* I don't get mine until Saturday.
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
9 and a half hours! I'm definitely going at Midnight. My mom may too, but she has to work tomorrow. If I go with her we'll go to Borders where she can get them on CD (or tape, she hasn't decided which yet) and the books would cost like, two dollars less. If she opts to go to bed instead, I'll probably just go to Stop and Shop because it's closer and I want to read it ASAP.

I'm so excited!!!
 

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Posted by ProverbialSunrise (Member # 7771) on :
 
9 hours and ten minutes. I will also go at midnight.
 

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Posted by hansenj (Member # 4034) on :
 
This is the last time I'm reading this thread until I finish reading it...it's getting too close to midnight in London. (That and I'm going to go take a nap so I can stay up all night reading.)

9 hours and 38 minutes for me!!
 

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Posted by Eisenoxyde (Member # 7289) on :
 
I just heard a TERRIBLE, yet very funny joke from a friend: Yeah, but when does Harry Potter Emacs go on sale? I hear it's 150 times better than Harry Potter VI.

Jesse

/VI is infinitely better than Emacs
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
Just over three hours for me! I'm not sure I'll be able to stay up all night, but maybe the excitement will keep me awake once I actually start reading it.
 

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Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
 
Best. Photo. Ever.
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
3 hours
Cannot wait this long
Plus I might not be able to get it until tomorrow if I can't get it at midnight.
Or worse...
NEXT WEEK #%$%$#%#
 

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Posted by Avadaru (Member # 3026) on :
 
Warning: I doubt any of you do, but if you happen to read www.luelinks.net, DO NOT GO THERE TODAY . Someone got ahold of a copy of the book, and massive spoilers are posted all over the site, including some actual scans of the pages. I haven't been to the site today, but my roommate warned me about it. If you visit the site, huge spoilers will pop up on the home page.
 

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Posted by beatnix19 (Member # 5836) on :
 
Two hours and nineteen minutes. I'm too old to be this excited.
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
I can't sit still. I'd been rereading the rest of the series, and I finished number five early this afternoon. I'm going through withdrawl after reading nonstop for so long. I wish I lived in Europe, they already have it.
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
I KNOW!
I just cannot wait this long...
Even though it's only...
2 hours...
One hour till I walk to the supermarket to try to get it...
Agony...
I bet I won't get it too.
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
I got it
Now I'm going to read it.
Unfortunetly, I am getting a second copy soon so if anyone wants to buy it from me...
 

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Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
 
*is in London*
*has finished the book about a half hour ago*
*mops tears and stifles curses*

Please someone finish so you can agree with me about the twisty ending. JK Rowling thinks she's so clever, but I am on to her little tricks.

SPOILERS (for real, though, because I actually know how the book ends)

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Even though I'm very jealous and really in love with him myself, I'm ever so glad Lupin is a wee bit happy. I knew that was what was plaguing her.

Also, as soon as I heard someone suggest that the Half-Blood Prince was Snape (in line waiting to get the book), I knew it was.

In other news, she needs to stop doing that with Ron.

END SPOILER


So I'm a bit cross.

Jen
 

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Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
 
SNAPE????? is the HBP??????

You're joking! Oh wow!

I just got mine and I decided to read that chapter to find out before I go to sleep. So I jumped ahead. You astonish me!
 

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Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
 
With each successive book, I despise Snape more and more. Every time, I think it's not possible for me to hate him more, but really it is. My mum adores him, but I wish he would DIE.

Jen
 

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Posted by TheClone (Member # 6141) on :
 
I know this is marked spoileres but I'm just going to say it again

****SUPER MASSIVE SPOILERS!!!!*****


I just finished mine (unfortuently, being in the US, I wasn't able to start reading it till like 1 AM EST, it took me a little over six hours... I'm rather embarassed, I was hoping to be under six. No speed reader, I guess.)

Either way, really nice book. I'd already had the bit about AD's death spoiled for me several days ago, and with that, most of the book was rather obvious, but it didn't take away from the experience.

However, someone was outside yelling about the Horcrux being fake, I felt like punching the *explitive* teenagers. Why the hell do kids have to be such... grrr. Honestly, I had completly forgotten about what they were yelling (It sounded like they were yelling We read the last page - the Warcraft is a fake!). But, honestly, just the fact that they would go and stand outside and ruin something that people want to enjoy is downright cruel.

I had two drinks from the Starbucks in Barnes & Noble. I'm in love.

Now, who is RAB? I was trying to think or people who had B as their last name, but I keep coming up blank.

And what happened to Colin Creevy did he die in the last book and I have just forgotten about it?
 

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Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
 
I just finished. It was amazingly written. Much better than any of the previous ones, I believe.

SPOILERS


You could see throughout the book that JKR was messing with shipper's minds. It really amused me. I can just hear the wails of despair as various people's ships go up in flames.

I'm really interested to hear what happens with Draco in the next book. And why Dumbledore trusted Snape. Those are the two pressing questions in my mind right now.

[EDIT] Thinking about it more, I'm surprised by how little was revealed in this book. JKR has said that by the end of the 7th book we'll "have all the backstory we need" but right now I'm no where near that point. There are all kinds of things that JKR has said will be revealed that she only has one more book to reveal them in.

I find it depressing that there's only one more left.
 

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Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
 
Dumbledore trusted Snape because--I hate so much to say this, because I despise Snape more with each successive book, I really really do--Snape is trustworthy. JK Rowling is doing a really good fake-out, on a William-Goldman-Buttercup-got-married sort of level times a billion. Dumbledore trusted Snape, and I do not think for a second that Snape is really evil (although I'd be thrilled if he were because I hate him).

Because ponder this: If Snape had actually turned up evil, and Dumbledore had just found it out when Snape was about to kill him, there is no way that Dumbledore would ever--ever--beg him not to kill him, especially when he was displaying such magnificent calm with all the other Death Eaters. Can you honestly see Dumbledore begging a Death Eater for mercy? He was asking Snape for something totally else. We just don't know what yet.

By the way, I'm a bit miffed we didn't find out what Harry's parents did, or anything else about their lives or anything about how James turned into a viable human being. I was counting on that, and I'm disappointed now.

I thought the book as a whole was excellent. I think the writing was a bit tighter than the fifth one, even with all the unnecessary adverbs.

Jen

Edit: As to RAB--Could that be Amelia Bones, and Amelia is just her middle name? I can't think of anybody else off the top of my head. Also, do we have any clues about when exactly that message was written?
 

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Posted by Eisenoxyde (Member # 7289) on :
 
I just finished reading the book and was curious about other people's reactions to it. When I first got the book, I randomly opened it towards the end and read 3 words... Unfortunately they were "following Dumbledore's death". Even with that spoiler, I thought this book was the best written (plot-wise) of the series so far. I need to reread it one or two more times before I form an opinion about the dialogue.

One thought that really struck me after reading it, is where *do* Snape's loyalties lie? After all, he did do the Unbreakable curse to keep Draco alive. If Draco had heasitated longer, would one of the other Death Eaters kill him? Was the only option available to him killing Dumbledore?

I'll post more of my thoughts/ideas later. My brain is nicely toasted and ready for a nice nap after reading for 5 hours.

Jesse
 

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Posted by Alucard... (Member # 4924) on :
 
We got a case of HP6 novels in last week, so I took home a copy last Wednesday. I took my time reading it and was blown away by the last 50 pages or so...

However, I hate to spoil the spoiler, but I have a strange feeling the Dumbledore/Snape relationship has not been fully answered yet, and will be concluded in book 7. Basically, I think we have been hoodwinked with Dumbledore's demise, but that is a guess on my part.
 

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Posted by Alucard... (Member # 4924) on :
 
Or, I am just in denial.
 

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Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
 
I did the same thing, checking the back of the book just briefly, and the only words I saw involved Dumbledore's death. But I am fairly positive that Snape's loyalties were with Dumbledore, because I still trust Dumbledore to know what's what with people. I also may just be trying very hard to be fair to Snape because of how much I dislike him. I mean, if Snape hadn't killed Dumbledore, someone would have, and Malfoy and Snape would have been killed after that as well. It's very bewildering.

Jen
 

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Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
 
Alucard, I would be very happy if you were right, but I can't bring myself to believe it.

SPOILERS for both HBP and A Song of Fire and Ice
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Of course, I was completely unspoiled, so the death took me utterly by surprise. I'm still twitching. Unlike a lot of fans, I've never particularly cared for Snape, so I wasn't totally surprised or disturbed. I guess it's rather like my reactions to the deaths of Ned and Robb in A Song of Fire and Ice--something along the lines of, "Hey, that character is a main, very important, good character! Why did he just DIE?!"

*sigh* *twitch*

Ok.

I have to ponder this for a while.
 

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Posted by Alucard... (Member # 4924) on :
 
OK, this is just wild rambling, but here goes my theory: WARNING Spoilers...
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Dumbledore and Harry were discussing the Horcruxes of Voldemort, and Dumbledore mentioned that he believed that Voldy used his snake, Nagini as a Horcrux.

So what if Dumbledore used Fawkes, his Phoenix as a Horcrux? I know that would be way out there as far as the type of magic that Dumbledore uses, but it is a possibility.
 

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Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
 
Just finished. I wasn't surprised by the ending (see below) but-

I have never burst into tears before in my adult life... I guess that says something about my life, but also about the book. I knew it was going to happen from the very first scenes, though, however much I hoped it wasn't. I also knew who the Half-Blood Prince was. I was lying in bed at three this morning, and it just sprang into my mind- clear and complete. From that first chapter it was clear to me.

I also think there is more behind Snape than what we are seeing. I'd like to believe there is something more.

- Yes, so I'm crying right now.

spoilers:

EDIT: Exactly who would Dumbledore murder, Alucard? He's gone- it was inevitable. Harry had to be on his own...
 

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Posted by Alucard... (Member # 4924) on :
 
True, True. I forgot about the murder part. (I just had a Ron Weasley moment). I've often found Dumbledore to be such a terrific counterpoint to the power of Voldemort specifically in the way he used his magic to counteract Voldy's. Is it possible he essentially used Fawkes the way Voldy used Nagini without having to murder anyone?

Maybe the attack on Dumbly by Snape was a ruse somehow???

I dunno. I just felt numb when I read the end, and am still quite in denial.
 

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Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
 
Fyfe- I thought so, too. Or at least, I hope so a lot and I trust Dumbledore. I still want to know why Dumbledore trusted him. However, the next book seems to be shaping up to be the Lily and James book, in the same way this one was the Voldemort one. So I'm sure we'll be seeing a lot of Snape in it.

Did anyone else pick up on Harry not returning to Hogwarts next year? I wonder what that'll be like.
 

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Posted by Alucard... (Member # 4924) on :
 
Here is a strange site that is already speculating book 7...

http://www.theorderofthephoenix.net/rumors.htm
 

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Posted by Alucard... (Member # 4924) on :
 
I have a question concerning butterbeer. Is this supposed to be non-alcoholic like root beer, or is it more like well, beer?
 

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Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
 
I was rereading the book, also--yes, I really have read the book twice already; I'm having a bad weekend and have required cheering up by means of excellent book--and I had forgotten about the bit where Hagrid overhears Dumbledore and Snape arguing. And I think that part's rather telling. I mean, when I read it, I assumed that it meant that Snape was sick of his double life, and Dumbledore was telling him that that was just too bad.

But really, it seems very unlikely that Dumbledore would tell someone that he HAD to continue working in a highly dangerous capacity for the Order. However, it seems exceedingly likely--and we see Dumbledore doing it with Harry--that Dumbledore knew Snape was going to have to kill him, to save [insert name here; Malfoy perhaps, since it's perfectly in character for Dumbledore to sacrifice himself for one of his students, even a dreadful one], and he was telling Snape he had to do it.

Thoughts on that? I think it's a fairly good theory, the only question being how Dumbledore knew it would be necessary, and why it was necessary, for him to die.

Jen
 

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Posted by TheClone (Member # 6141) on :
 
There's always that whole "Ron is Dumbledore," theory.

http://www.knight2king.net/Knight2King/weasleyisourking.html#4

Also on there is the 7 moves = 7 years theory. Ron ends up sacrificing himself. If you want to believe Ron = Dumbledore, that could fit in with the sacrifice, setting Harry up to take Voldemort.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
RAB = Regelus Black???
 

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Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
 
My mum thought of Regulus Black too! And we both feel justified about the theory she came up with ages ago that Snape was in love with Lily. Duh. Everything fits if Snape was in love with Lily--her being so good at Potions, his hating of Harry (because of seeing his beloved one's eyes set in the face of his worst enemy, etc etc), why Dumbledore believes (*sob* believed) Snape about his repentance. That's clearly the reason Dumbledore believed him. Clearly. I like this theory a lot.

Jen
 

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Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
 
That's what I've been reading, Dagonee. Seems to be tge general theory at the moment.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
I am 100% certain that Snape killed Dumbledore at the latter's request. Snape was clearly madly in love with Lily Potter, and was fully repentant for her death; moreover, it's very obvious in this book that while he's bound by oath to the Malfoys, he's just as capable of working around that oath when necessary.

I'm pleased to say, actually, that all but one of my predictions were accurate. *preens*

------

The phoenix on the tomb was an interesting symbol, and it DOES make me wonder whether Dumbledore somehow used his phoenix to power a version of the same power that's been keeping Voldemort alive. But that'd be cheating, and I personally think Rowling will keep Dumbledore dead (since she's otherwise been hewing close to the Joseph Campbell formula), although perhaps able to communicate with Harry from beyond the grave somehow.

-------

I hadn't considered Regulus Black, but now that I hear it, it sounds perfect. Rowling has a way of writing characters into books BEFORE the big reveal, so I'm confident that it's a character we've met or heard of before.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
I still don't necessarily think Snape betrayed Dumbledore, but I do think Dumbledore's dead,not faking.
 

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Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
 
I finished it about a half hour ago.

Wow. Just...wow.

The first thing I thought after seeing RAB was Regulus or Rastaban Black.

I think you're right, Tom. I still can't believe that Snape would betray Dumbledore. Especially during Harry's fight with him-- he never hurt Harry. And the "DO NOT CALL ME A COWARD!"...oh man. Snape did it at Dumbly's request, and it's eating him up inside.


*cries for Dumbledore*
 

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Posted by Alucard... (Member # 4924) on :
 
Don't forget the portrait in the Headmaster/Headmistress' office. Dumbledore can communicate with anyone at all there...

I was just hoping for some way to see Dumbledore come back for one more assist in Harry's final battle with Voldemort. I hope the sword of Griffindor comes into play also...
 

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Posted by Alucard... (Member # 4924) on :
 
I would also like to say that if Snape did indeed kill Dumbledore, it was not to benefit the Death Eaters and Voldemort, but to somehow help Harry and Dumbledore himself.

The whole corny Jedi transformation at death (Obi Wan, Yoda, Anakin, and Quai Gon) comes to mind.

Did Dumbledore transcend to a form more powerful than a human could achieve while alive?

Do we all?

Who knows?
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 


Just finished it.
That's what I was thinking TomDavidson. The look of hatred could have been because Snape was forced to kill Dumbledore and didn't want to.
As evil as Snape is, I'd like to see some good in him.
Also, Dumbledore didn't really fear dying. He said so in the 5th book that death isn't the worse thing.
Plus, I don't think Snape or Dumbledore could have beared Malfoy becoming a murderer and having his soul broken. So, Dumbledore could have ordered Snape to do it...
 

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Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
 
To the well organized mind...

*can't finish*
 

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Posted by Alucard... (Member # 4924) on :
 
What was also sad was Harry putting his feelings for Ginny on hold. That was very noble and tragic of them both...
 

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Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
 
I don't think Ginny's gonna let it happen. I'm strongly reminded of one of Petra's lines in the Beanverse--something like, "bad things don't happen to the people you love until you leave".
 

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Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
 

quote:

---

To the well organized mind...

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Teshi:

quote:

---

To the well organized mind...

---

Exactly. This is why Dumbledore could not have been pleading at the very end... this quote is very important. It's just all wrong that Dumbledore would be afraid at the end. Something's up.

---

I doubt he was afraid.. Perhaps he was pleading to Snape to get on with it.
So sad.
Heartbreaking.
Dang, that book was good.
*Rereads*
 

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Posted by ProverbialSunrise (Member # 7771) on :
 
I wish I could reread the book. Unfortunately, all 4 other members of my family have to read it first.
 

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Posted by Lucky4 (Member # 1420) on :
 
I always wait till the books come out in paperback before I read them. However, I'm really not one for suspense. So, could someone fill me in on the important part, also known as the romance? Is Harry in love these days? What about Ron and Hermione? Any other couples?
 

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Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
 
Ron/Hermione after a bout of Ron/Lavender

Harry/Ginny with some Harry/Luna thrown in to throw off the fans

Tonks/Remus

Bill/Fleur
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
One of the few things I didn't like was how Ron and Hermione beat about the bush trying to make each other jealous.
It's obvious that they adore each other.
And Harry fell for Ginny which I thought was a bit sudden, but ah, well. Ginny's kind of cool.
 

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Posted by Lucky4 (Member # 1420) on :
 
So, do we want Harry and Ginny together in the end, or what?
 

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Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
 
There was much snogging to be had overall.

edit: I have to say I loved Fluer--"I am preetty enough for ze two of us!"
* s in the midst of s*

also: I was a Harry/Hermione shipper for quite a while, but that ship was Crucio'd before my eyes.
 

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Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
 
Part of me doesn't think we've seen the last of Dumbledore. After all, the flames on his bier, the phoenix Harry thought he saw... Could he be pulling a Gandalf on us? It's entirely likely.
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
Dumbledore is dead, I'm certain but I agree with Tom.

I think he was dying, and there was no saving him from whatever potion he drank

He knew he had to die, he knew Snape wouldn't want to be the one to kill him, but he asked Severus to do it in order to protect Severus' cover.

I just....can't stand it.

*sobs*

Good for Remus and Tonks though. *sigh*
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
I want to know why Dumbledore didn't wake up and say something when he was in the portrait in the Headmistress's office. They were clearly trying to follow through on his wishes, why couldn't he speak up?
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by sarcasticmuppet:
I was a Harry/Hermione shipper for quite a while, but that ship was Crucio'd before my eyes.

---

I love the wording of that somehow. I don't think Ron and Hermione are quite together yet. Probably by the beginning of the next book, but they still seemed to be beating around the book quite a bit.

(I finished the book a few hours ago, and I got to go see Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. Two things I've been looking forward to for ages, in one great day! The movie was hilarious by the way; I strongly recommend it.)
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
Okay, I know I could easily put all of these in one longer post, but my brain isn't working logically after being awake so long so I post as I think....

Somewhere around chapter 12 I was thinking, "Why is Harry being so dim? Get off of this Malfoy fix. You used to do that with Snape and you were always wrong. There are other horrible people out there."

Of course, I was wrong. From chapter two on I was trying to figure out which side Snape was actually on. He did seem quite reluctant to agree to the Unbreakable Vow.... He, Dumbledore, and Voldemort are (were, are) the three greatest Legilimenses in the wizarding world. Could one of them really trick one or both of the others?

And did Snape really know what Malfoy's task was when he took that vow? He said he knew, but for some reason I thought he was bluffing when I read it. Throughout the whole book I thought Malfoy's task was to kill Harry, not Dumbledore.
 

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Posted by kwsni (Member # 1831) on :
 
I thought that Harry's oath to Dumbledore was eerily reminicent of Snape's vow to help Malfoy.

Ni!
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
Why couldn't his hand heal?
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
Must go to bed. I've been up far too long. Must sleep. But what to read now? (I've had a growing stack of books on my desk while I've reread the series in anticipation of book six.)
 

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Posted by Theaca (Member # 8325) on :
 
I won't read it for months, but I wondered what someone meant about Harry not returning to Hogwarts?
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
He's not going to go back to Hogwarts.
He's going to first return to the Dursleys for the last time.
Then he will go to the home of his parents and then take on Voldermort with Ron and Hermione at his side.
Hermione must really love him to quite schooling for him.
 

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Posted by JaimeBenlevy (Member # 6222) on :
 
*Spoilers*

Just finished it like ten minutes ago...I figured Dumbledore would die in this book or the next but it was still sad. I think when Dumbledore was pleading with Snape in the end he was pleading with him to kill him. It's the kind of twist that's JKR's style, I think. I thought she paced it differently in this book though. The beginning and middle were kind of slow and more detailed while the ending was just like...an explosion of a million things happening at once. This book was definitely written differently than the earlier ones, IMO.
 

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Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
 
I finished it yesterday - got it in the morning, went to lunch *and* hosted a dinner party but still finished it.

Made Tony do the cleaning though, so I could read in peace.

*Gad*

I couldn't believe Snape was evil but when he killed (and with aveda kedavra!) I thought he must be - but I like the "acting on Dumbledore's orders" theory. It makes his insistence that he is not a coward more sensical.

I hope so. I don't want him to be evil, not because I like the character particularly, but I don't want Dumbledore to have been so wrong.
 

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Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
 
Oh, and from the predictions site for Book 7 that was linked to..

A stellar prediction:

quote:

---

Book will most likely be long.

---

Well, *duh*
 

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Posted by JaimeBenlevy (Member # 6222) on :
 
My prediction: Not only will book 7 be long but it will also take along time before it comes out
 

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Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
 
Snape using the AK curse really did a number on me too--I thought, like the Cruciatus Curse, it needed a lot of hate aimed toward the victim to work properly. And I skimmed over the chapter again--Snape's face was full of hatred.

I could be totally wrong about this, though. I really, really, don't want Snape to be evil.
 

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Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
 
I finished the second time 'round just now, and I've got a few (very spoilerific) thoughts to add...

I completely agree with the Regulus Black thing. I saw that note and almost jumped up screaming (but didn't - it was 3 in the morning, after all) that it had to be Regulus. He did, after all, leave the Death Eaters and then die.

Snape. Oh, Snape. I think that should be a curse word or something. My immediate impression was of disgust and that he really WAS a lying, back-stabbing traitor, and an evil git to boot. Then I remembered the Unbreakable Vow. There was no way - NO WAY - Draco was actually going to kill Dumbledore. Dumbledore's words had far too great an impact on young Draco. And since Dumbledore kept putting off Harry's suspicions about Snape and Draco, and since Snape knew Voldemort's plan for Draco and swore that Vow with Narcissa, Snape had to kill Dumbledore. I'm not prepared to forgive him, let alone ever like or respect the poncy git again, but it should make for an interesting Act 3 in Book 7.

I cheered out loud at the following: Harry beating Hermione on the DADA OWL; Harry not beating himself up too much over Sirius' death; Tonks madly in love with Remus (!); the DADA job actually being jinxed; Kingsley being the best worker in the Other Minister's office; and Harry's Slytherin side emerging. I also really liked Kreacher and Dobby fighting.

I still hate Ginny. There's no justification there! So what if Harry gets a fluttery feeling in his stomach when she pets him? He's a 16-year-old boy! Of course a pretty girl is going to make him wobbly in the knees!

That said, I really liked Mr. and Mrs. Weasley's interactions through the door - the whole "Mollywobbles" bit was absolutely adorable.

And I'm not too proud to admit I cried at Dumbledore's funeral.
 

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Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
 
I cried when Dumbledore cried. When he died I had to seclude myself in my room and scream at the walls in sorrow.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Not only did Regulus die, but someone has been stealing artifacts from the Black estate. See the plot thread? *grin*
 

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Posted by JaimeBenlevy (Member # 6222) on :
 
"He's a 16-year-old boy!"

Actually considering that, he resisted doing alot of things I don't think I could've (being a 15 year-old boy). Like when all the girls were trying to get him under the mistletoe and he was doing his best not to, I don't think many teen boys would have resisted that
 

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Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
 
At the same time, Kreacher's been hoarding a lot of junk-that-might-not-be-junk in his little nest. Maybe he'll have a use yet.
 

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Posted by Humean316 (Member # 8175) on :
 
I was thinking something as I read the books and I thought of something that may really suck. What if Harry is one of the four horcruxes he searches for now? Wouldnt it be just be like Voldemort to do that? Could that have been how the scar occurred like it did as a more perminent mark than we thought? If so, that means Harry has to die and after reading book 6 that really sucks.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
I initially thought that Dumbledore might have been a Horcrux, but then the conversation about the bond Voldemort shares with Nagini made that seem unlikely. Since Voldemort does share a bond with Harry, however, it's entirely possible that Harry is a Horcrux.

But it's not likely. Not only would Voldemort not have tried to kill one of his own Horcruxes (for obvious reasons), I'm not sure how he would have had time to perform the ritual to create one; he could have used James' murder to cast the spell, presuming it doesn't take that long, but why would he have targeted his enemy's baby, especially a baby he intended to kill? So no, Harry's almost certainly not a Horcrux.

-------

BTW, how can Harry not love Ginny? She's one of two girls at all of Hogwarts who aren't complete twits.
 

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Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
 
You got that right. I was appalled by Lavender's behavior in HBP.
 

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Posted by Avadaru (Member # 3026) on :
 
There has been so much speculation in this thread about why Snape killed Dumbledore, but I thought it was fairly obvious (at least, after a while - I didn't come to this conclusion until after I was finished reading). Draco's task was to kill Dumbledore, and when he couldn't do it, the Unbreakable Vow forced Snape to do it. I don't think Snape was completely evil, and he clearly saw that Dumbledore was in a weakened state. Rather than refuse the Vow and die, he protected Dumbledore's reputation. I don't think he would have liked a weak and powerless Dumbledore to fall into the merciless hands of the Death Eaters, which obviously would have happened had he refused the Vow and let Dumbledore live. He probably knew that Dumbledore would have died either way, so Snape thought it was better to do it himself than to risk Dumbledore being tortured or hurt by a Death Eater. Does that make sense to anyone else?
 

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Posted by kwsni (Member # 1831) on :
 
It's important that Dumbledore insisted that Harry go get Snape, and not Slughorn or MacGonagal. I like to think it Had to be Snape that killed Dumbledore so he could come back, but I think it's being too hopeful.

Ni!
 

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Posted by Dom Peralt (Member # 4078) on :
 
SPOILERS (duh)

Am I the only person who has an alternate theory as to why Snape killed Dumbledore? It's kind of nasty, but what about this?

Snape is a half-blood. Dumbledore almost certainly knew that.

Now, I can't imagine that there are too many half-blood Death Eaters, seeing as how they despise half-bloods and Muggle borns.

Snape is accomplsihed at occlumency. So it's possible that Voldemort DIDN'T KNOW that Snape was a half-blood.

Could it be that...

... Dumbledore was BLACKMAILING Snape with knowledge of his half-blood heritage? Threatening to somehow make it public that Snape wasn't a pureblood?

Is THAT why Snape was working for him? So that his fellow Death Eaters wouldn't turn on him once they knew the truth?

Is THAT why he loudly insisted that he wasn't a coward--because he knew that, in truth, he was one? Is that why he looked at Dumbledore with hatred and disgust when he killed him?

Something to think about...

[ July 17, 2005, 05:59 AM: Message edited by: Dom Peralt ]
 

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Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
 
I dunno. Blackmailing is not Dumbledore's style.

I'm very glad that Snape is going to be a central character in the next book. He has always been one of my favorite characters. Moral ambiguities are always more interesting than moral absolutes.
 

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Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
 
And it's not like information on Snape's past couldn't have been found by anyone in Voldemort's service.

I'm starting to think that Dumbledore was pleading with Snape to spare both him (Snape) and Malfoy. Dumbles probably knew about the Unbreakable vow and thought Snape was too important for the fight ahead, and that it wasn't too late for Malfoy to redeem himself.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 

quote:

---

I'm starting to think that Dumbledore was pleading with Snape to spare both him (Snape) and Malfoy.

---

quote:

---

Now, I can't imagine that there are too many half-blood Death Eaters, seeing as how they despise half-bloods and Muggle borns.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by DavidGill:
About Snape: Is it possible to cast an inaudible spell while pretending to audibly cast another?

---

That would create interesting possibilities about what really happen (Dumbledore might not really be dead), but each spell sends a different color beam of light at the recipient. Not only would he have to cast a spell that would essentially stun Dumbledore, but he would have to know one that would look the same as Avada Kedavra.

btw, I loved how Hermione was almost right about the HBP. There was a loophole such that the Prince wouldn't necessarily have to be male. I'd also been wondering if JK Rowling hadn't been pulling a Dobby. The book was fifty years old. Tom Riddle went to Hogwarts fifty years ago. For a few chapters I thought it really was going to end up being Voldemort or someone really close to him (though he didn't really have any friends), even though JK Rowling had said it wasn't Voldemort. But the book originally belonging to Snape's mother, whose name was Prince, and Snape being the half blood Prince, was something I definitely didn't see coming. I love how she always manages to surprise me. I can never guess everything. I defintely didn't guess the new DADA teacher.
 

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Posted by delicate flower (Member # 6260) on :
 
My favorite line in this book:

quote:

---

"Then why," asked Snape, "does it have the name 'Roonil Wazlib' written inside the front cover?"

Harry's heart missed a beat. "That's my nickname," he said.

---

quote:

---

I though there were a couple of odd moments (everyone randomly professing love) and every once in a while it felt like an episode of Hogwarts: 90210.

---

I remember being sixteen.

(I thought it was amusing that Rowling apparently realized that Harry would not in fact have come of age according to British law by the time he graduated and rather conveniently decided that wizards come of age at seventeen. *grin* That bit of exposition stood out in the same way as the "It's pronounced Her-MY-oh-KNEE" bit in Goblet of Fire did.)
 

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Posted by RoyHobbs (Member # 7594) on :
 
The whole scene with Snape and Dumbledore felt like a big act, a play that only Snape and Dumbledore were in.

Dumbledore pleading for his life?

Never happen.

Snape with an overblown look of hatred on his face?

WAYY too convenient.

There is something going on in that scene but I am not sure what it is yet...

Maybe Dumbledore is not dead, we dont see his body until Hagrid and Harry come rushing over after some time. A switch of bodies? Polyjuice potion? Maybe the potion that protected the Horcrux makes you invulnerable to the AK curse?

I just cant see Rowling showing the role model Dumbledore being so thoroughly hoodwinked and weak.

DD ain't goin' out like dat.
 

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Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
 
I have a feeling that Dumbledore's painting in the Headmaster's office wouldn't have appeared had he not actually died.

I do think Snape has proven himself to be a spectacular actor in past books.

I hope the next book will give us some insight into exactly how much of the original person's character gets captured in a wizard painting. I've always been pretty curious.
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
I always wondered about that... How they got those paintings
 

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Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
 
Does Slughorn remind anyone of Ellsworth Toohey? I would love it if Slughorn, like Umbridge, brings a more subtle shade of evil to the next HP book.
 

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Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
 
Well, I finished it - didn't set any speed records and I didn't want to.

I definitely side with what seems to be the prevailing view of Dumbledore's death: Snape did what he did at Dumbledore's request.

I think he probably honestly died - no tricky or hidden spells.

Dumbledore's made comments more than once about "many things being worse than death." In fact, in one of the books (might have been GoF) that Voldemort's inability to understand this was a major weakness.

Is it just me, or did the writing come across as more uneven than the previous books?

::Going back for the second reading::
 

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Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
 
(I thought it was amusing that Rowling apparently realized that Harry would not in fact have come of age according to British law by the time he graduated and rather conveniently decided that wizards come of age at seventeen. *grin* That bit of exposition stood out in the same way as the "It's pronounced Her-MY-oh-KNEE" bit in Goblet of Fire did.)

I dunno. "Of age" seems to be all over the map where British law is concerned.
• 10 (8 in Scotland): criminal responsibility;
• 13: part-time employment;
• 16: leave education, enter full-time employment, have sex, smoke, play the
National Lottery, join a trade union, apply for a passport, pay tax and National
Insurance, and (with parental consent) join the armed forces, get married, or leave
home;
• 17: drive a car or light motorbike;
• 18: buy alcohol without a meal, gamble in a betting shop or casino, be tried in an
adult court, serve on a jury, and do without parental consent those things
exercisable at 16 only with;
• 21: drive larger and more powerful motor vehicles.
 

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Posted by SpaceAngel401 (Member # 8158) on :
 
Well, I was stunned and aghast when Snape killed Dumbledore....I never really was fond of him, but I didn't really think he was EVIL.

Now, of course, I am convinced that there is something more to it. I, too, believe that Dumbledore was telling Snape to kill him...whether to spare Draco (who, like Harry, I found myself pitying, and not quite hating as much as usual...nor his Mother for that matter), or to keep the Death Eaters from knowing that Snape is really an Order of the Phoenix member....I don't know. I do think Dumbledore is really dead. Sirius, I dont know, but thats another story....Dumbledore was actually HIT by Avada Kedavra....but, the fact that his painting now hangs in the Headmaster's office, that does open interesting possibilities to communicate with him...

I am looking forward to a second read of this book (finished Saturday night/Sunday morning about 2:45 am....took about 16 hours, but I was at work for 5.5 of those, and also making phone calls....HP was my reward,, make a few calls, read a bit. But, alas, my mother has to read it first....hope she's fast!
 

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Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
 
You forgot 18: Vote.
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
It's also been mentioned in prior books that the age would be seventeen. At least, it must've been in the fifth book because Fred and George could apparate and use their magic over the summer. I don't think Percy apparated until the fourth book, when he'd already left Hogwarts for the Ministry. But then, I don't know when his birthday is so is it possible he wasn't 17 until he started his seventh year? (I'm not sure where the cutoff is, but I think that would have held him back a year. In the fourth one Angelina (who's in the same year as Fred and George) turns seventeen in october of her sixth year.) Though now that I think about it, coming of age is mentioned in book four. Dumbledore says something about only witches and wizards who have come of age, that is to say, seventeen, may participate in the Tri-Wizard Tournament.

To recap, if you thought that she "conveniently decided that wizards come of age at seventeen" in this book, she has mentioned it elsewhere.

On a completely different note, does anyone think that Dumbledore finally gave Snape the DADA job because it's cursed? He knew people didn't stay in it for more than a year; was he planning on having Snape go back to teaching potions, or leave the school?
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 

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I do think Dumbledore is really dead. Sirius, I dont know, but thats another story

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I'd pretty much given up on them [Harry and Ginny] after she started going out with other boys.

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Funny, that's when I first started thinking they should get together. I didn't really like early-Ginny that much.

The more distance I get from the book the more I LOVE it. I was too emotionally upset when it ended to realize what a good book it was. I can't believe he's gone...

And incidently, thank you Hatrack for once again not letting me down. Only two of my friends have finished reading, and I haven't been able to talk to either one yet. It's awful!
 

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Posted by Arya (Member # 6160) on :
 
Opinions: Sorry... it's a bit on the long side.

Regulus Black- my first thought was that he was RAB. However, the more I pondered, the more I felt it just couldn't be. He was born from a family of dark wizards- Sirius was the only exception. Sirius said his brother was just like the rest of them, and that he chickened out and ran away from Voldemort, which was why he was killed. So I'm not too sure about that. Although I guess it is possible...

Snape- I think he is still on Dumbledore's side, although Wormtail living with him creeped me out. It also scared me that Snape is the Half Blood Prince... it means he is a lot more powerful than I thought.
The night that Hagrid heard Dumbledore and Snape fighting, I think Dumbledore was telling him that he will have to kill him if it comes up, because he did not want Draco becoming a murderer- I also think it was on Dumbledore's orders to watch over Draco.
I do not, however, think that Snape should have EVER made that promise to Narcissa. He had absolutely no reason to, except to prove to Bellatrix that he is, in fact, on Voldemort's side. But who cares about Bellatrix? As long as the Dark Lord has faith in him, that's all that matters. He should not have made the promise.
I also think that Voldemort may have accepted him back because, like himself, Snape had a witch mother and muggle father. It keeps hinting that Voldemort also chose Harry instead of Neville because of his parent's background. The book also kept talking about Voldemort's obsession with parentage. Fits, neh?
I think when Dumbledore was pleading with him, it was not to save him, nor was it to kill him. Dumbledore very well knew that Snape would have to kill him anyways if Draco didn't. Dumbledore also would never beg for his life. I think that maybe he was begging Snape to protect Harry...
If you notice, Snape stopped the other Death Eaters from hurting Harry. And when Harry was attacking him, Snape never fought back. I think he also slipped Harry a warning in there- 'close your mind'. He kept telling him he would never let Harry hit him with a spell unless he learned to close his mind. I think he was trying to tell him that he better learn occlumency before facing Voldemort.
However, the main thing that I found against Snape (besides Wormtail living with him, and besides making that stupid promise) was that if he kills Dumbledore- who will he report to? It doesn't look like Dumbledore told anybody else that Snape may have to kill him. So then what is the point of Snape staying with Voldemort if he can not pass over any information to the Order? This leads me to believe that Snape is either a double agent, and is on whatever side he wishes to be on depending on his mood, or he really is evil.
Though I do still think he is on the good side.

Dumbledore- He's dead. Not coming back. He had to die. Snape made the promise. He had to keep it.
A painting on the wall is not the person's soul, so I don't think he's going to be as much use to us as the real Dumbledore.
I also HIGHLY doubt the rumor that Fawkes contains Dumbledore's soul. Dumbledore is not the type to do such a thing. Just like Sirius was not the type to become a ghost.

I am also wondering about the whole Harry/Ginny thing. The first time Harry got the feeling that he was in love with Ginny was when she passed him by- he got a whiff of something exactly like the love potion that was sitting in front of Harry. So either, (a)- she was using some kind of love potion, or had a love potion used on her, or, (b)- the love potion smells different to everyone. He then realized Ginny smelled just like the love potion did, which means that she smelled the way he imagined love to smell like.

I'm predicting something happening with Neville & Luna.

I also thought the whole scene with Grawp and Hagrid was really cute...

I had thought Dumbledore would leave Harry something. Obviously not like Sirius, but it always seemed as if Dumbledore thought Harry to be like a son. I was almost sure it would have been Fawkes... Harry always had a connection with Fawkes. I was half expecting him to fly over and perch on Harry's shoulder. But he didn't... just flew away. So sad.

Oh my... and Harry forcing Dumbledore to drink that stuff... I have NEVER cried so much while reading a book.
 

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Posted by Chveya (Member # 2623) on :
 

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And incidently, thank you Hatrack for once again not letting me down.

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The first time Harry got the feeling that he was in love with Ginny was when she passed him by- he got a whiff of something exactly like the love potion that was sitting in front of Harry. So either, (a)- she was using some kind of love potion, or had a love potion used on her, or, (b)- the love potion smells different to everyone. He then realized Ginny smelled just like the love potion did, which means that she smelled the way he imagined love to smell like.

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However, the main thing that I found against Snape (besides Wormtail living with him, and besides making that stupid promise) was that if he kills Dumbledore- who will he report to? It doesn't look like Dumbledore told anybody else that Snape may have to kill him. So then what is the point of Snape staying with Voldemort if he can not pass over any information to the Order? This leads me to believe that Snape is either a double agent, and is on whatever side he wishes to be on depending on his mood, or he really is evil.
Though I do still think he is on the good side.

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I think he's pulling a Suriawong--at the last/best possible moment, when his loyalty to the enemy is never questioned even by the good guys, Snape is going to leave Voldemort's side and join Harry's.

At least, I hope.
 

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Posted by JaimeBenlevy (Member # 6222) on :
 
I really don't see why Snape HAD to kill Dumbledore. He could have quickly gave Dumbledore his wand back and both of them could've took everyone else on. And why Snape made the ultimate promise? Beats me. And convincing the Death Eaters that he's on their side, even if he's not, doesn't seem as beneficial to the Order as if Dumbledore is still there. I think it's going to turn out that Snape was actually good but I don't like it. If Snape really wanted to help the order I think he should've picked up Dumbledore's wand, act like he's going to break it or something to throw everyone else off, toss the wand to Dumbledore, and AK as many people as he can before they realize what's going on.
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
Of course, it could have always been a long standing agreement between Dumbledore and Snape.
That might have also been why he trusted Snape beyond all logic.
 

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Posted by JaimeBenlevy (Member # 6222) on :
 
But why would Dumbledore want to die? He's so crucial to the fight against Voldemort. Probably the most crucial after Harry
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
Dumbledore wouldn't want Snape to AK anyone. It's the Avada Kedavra that really bothers me. As has been pointed out here already, the unforgivable curses only work if you enjoy doing them, that's why they're unforgiveable.

If he was carrying out Dumbledore's wishes, Snape wouldn't have enjoyed killing him.

Also as has been said here, I don't want Snape to be evil, because I don't want Dumbledore to be wrong. Dumbledore has acknowledged that he's not perfect, and has made mistakes, but when he supports Snape he always phrases it in absolute terms. He's absolutely sure that Snape is on his side.
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
My guess on R.A.B. is that SHE is in love with Tom Riddle, and wants to restore his soul, so he can be mortal, hence human enough to love again.

She is also doing Harry a favor, although he doesn't see it that way. It seems impossible for Harry to find all of the horcruxes without Dumbledore's help, but it someone else has found them and destroyed them, it makes Harry's job much easier.

Then again, if restoring his soul can make him lovable, he might wind up doing a Darth Vader on us and being redeemed in the end.
 

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Posted by Humean316 (Member # 8175) on :
 
After reading the book again, I am convinced that Snape killed DD by request too. The thing that really sticks in my mind is how Snape fought Harry as they left Hogwarts. He was trying to TEACH him not hurt him at all. The part about not being a coward too speaks to the notion that Snape did NOT want to kill DD but had to summon the courage to do so.

"But why would Dumbledore want to die? He's so crucial to the fight against Voldemort. Probably the most crucial after Harry"

I was thinking about this too and here is what I think. He knew he would have to die to protect Snape, Draco and Harry. But more than anything, DD realizes that Harry has to kill Voldemort ON HIS OWN. Unfortunately, Harry could not do so if DD was around because he would lean on him. In a way, I think DD has made the ultimate sacrifice for the magical community, Snape, Draco, and Harry. By doing so, he has set the stage for Harry to fulfill the prophecy and achieve what no one else can. In this book, DD set Harry on the path, found the one Horcrux that could not be destroyed by only person (or attempted too), and the got out of the way so that Harry could finish what they both started.

In the end, I dont think Snape will help Harry directly, but on his own, Harry will figure out the special role Snape plays and that will help him to destroy Voldemort.
 

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Posted by Jill (Member # 3376) on :
 
'Kay. My thoughts:

I wasn't surprised by Dumbledore's death, as I knew it had to happen for the plot to progress, but I certainly was horrified. I can't remember the last fictional death that hurt me quite as badly as this one did. And I do think that he's dead, but that there's more than meets the eye to the way he died. I agree, he would never plead for his own life. I still don't think Snape is evil, though the fact that he Stunned Flitwick and his look of hatred certainly don't look good... I think that Harry's capacity to love will come into play a lot in the next book in regards to this.
I hadn't thought of it earlier, but I agree, RAB could definitely be Regulus. It would make sense, and it wouldn't fit JK Rowling's style to make RAB a completely unknown character.
Mundungus is still in Azkaban-- how's that going to end up? And poor Stan!!
I think Fawkes will be back, despite what Harry said about him leaving Hogwarts for good.
And I do think it's very interesting that Dumbledore gave Snape the DADA position, when he knew it was cursed. Hmmmm...
What page is Dumbledore's argument with Snape? I'm trying to find it, but it's eluding me. Hagrid overhears them, right?
I'm not sure how much I like the idea that the next book won't be at Hogwarts. I've grown very fond of the place.
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
Now I have a really odd theory.
What if Dumbledore's death (a sacrifice) is simular to Lily's?
I don't think that Regulus is that important a character.
Chances are, he was killed because he refused to murder someone, plus he was killed by an underling and not by Voldermort himself.
No, RAB is probably someone entirely different and unexpected.
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
Doesn't sound odd to me at all. Dumbledore has described death as having strongly magical influence, both in terms of Lily's protection of Harry, and the effect of murder on Voldemort's soul.
 

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Posted by JaimeBenlevy (Member # 6222) on :
 
I think I'm going to end up being disappointed in the 7th book in how they explain why Snape killed him. I really hope Snape did it because he's evil because there would be so many holes if he did it per Dumbledore's request.
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
Above, I posted one line from Dumbledore while he was in the cave. He said "Kill Me" as though he were giving an instruction. But he also rambled and said a bunch of other stuff. (Can't remember, because my son has the book now)

I'm guessing that he was sort of replaying a memory, perhaps the argument he had with Snape. Maybe he was also speaking Snape's words, refusing to do it. Maybe even Snape's words that convinced Dumbledore that he was trustworthy.
 

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Posted by xtownaga (Member # 7187) on :
 
hasn't snape looked like he was evil in several of the books (the only specific case I remember is in the first when it looks like he's trying to steal the stone), and yet he always came out on the good side.

And as for the identidy of the Half Blood Prince, I was pretty sure through most of the book that it was Voldermort, but that due to the time frame he was not yet truely Voldermort, but Tom Riddle, which is what Rowling had meant when saying it wasn't Voldy. Of course, I was wrong, but still...

And Synesthesia, didn't Lily's sacrifice only protect him from Voldermort, so woudln't this only protect him from Snape, who he seems to trust quite a lot anyway, and thus be rather pointless?
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
No, it wouldn't protect him from Snape (as Snape is not after him like Voldermort is)
 

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Posted by dropofTapioca (Member # 7867) on :
 
More RAB speculation:

RAB's note was addressed to 'Dark Lord', which means RAB is probably a former servant of Voldemort's.

This lends credence to the Regulus Black theory, but then again, RAB could be some other character we've never seen.

I'm trying to think, who else could have known about those caves? (where Tom Riddle tortured the orphans)
 

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Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
 
Did anyone else think that Madam Pince (the librarian) would turn out to be the Half-Blood Prince?

I was thinking that because the handwriting on the potions book was so difficult to read, that Harry had misread "Half-Blood Pince" as "Half-Blood Prince."

I'm glad I turned out to be wrong -- I was thinking that Rowling had made it too easy to guess the identity of the HBP...
 

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Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
 
Madam Pince, writing in a BOOK? Oh dear me, no!

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I'm trying to think, who else could have known about those caves? (where Tom Riddle tortured the orphans)

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Originally posted by Glenn Arnold:
My guess on R.A.B. is that SHE is in love with Tom Riddle, and wants to restore his soul, so he can be mortal, hence human enough to love again.

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I really don't see why Snape HAD to kill Dumbledore. He could have quickly gave Dumbledore his wand back and both of them could've took everyone else on.

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If anything he died to save malfoy and snape, but I don't think that will matter much plot wise.

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Originally posted by Leaf:
Did anyone else stumble and laugh over the part where Slughorn messes up Ron's name (cuz he's so inconsiquential (sp.. it's late shut up) to him because he's not destined for fame) and he called him "Rupert"... which is the actors name who plays Ron in the movies...
I may be wrong, but if im not THATS CRAZY and funny too.

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Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
[QUOTE] Ah, but see, that's the whole point. He died because he believes in Love conquering Evil and Death. He died as an act of love, trying to protect even the one who was trying to kill him.

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Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred in the harsh lines of his face.

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I'm preeety enough for both of us.

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My guess on R.A.B. is that SHE is in love with Tom Riddle, and wants to restore his soul, so he can be mortal, hence human enough to love again.

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Destroying a horcrux doesn't restore the soul, it kills that part of it. Once you tear your soul apart, you can't go back on it. Or at least, that was the impression that I got.

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Oh, and also: if we read R.A.B. as Regulus Black, I thought I might quote a line from OotP, Ch. 6, page 116 in the hardback. They're cleaning out the cabinet and there was "also a heavy locket that none of them could open." And Mundungus was stealing things from GP and Kreacher was hording things . . . Oh my.

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I am pleased that Ron and Hermione's relationship though obvious hasnt come to fruition JUST yet.

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I am suprised nobody else seemed to have picked up on Draco's eventual turn to good. It hit me one day just after book 5 that it wasnt his fault that he was on the wrong side. His parents were the cause of his allegiences. He says and does terrible things in all the books up til now but it always seemed to be with an air of "this will please my parents" attitude. I figured that by book 7 he would turn good and actually help out harry (with MUCH hesitation on harry's part)

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Originally posted by Samarkand:
And has anyone else noticed that house elves can apparate and disapparate inside Hogwarts?

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Dumbledore dying didn't save ANYONE.

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Fawkes is Dumbledore's possession, not a Hogwarts possession.

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Originally posted by ketchupqueen:

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Dumbledore dying didn't save ANYONE.

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Yes it did. It saved Snape.

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Dumbledore dying didn't save ANYONE.

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Yes it did. It saved Snape.

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But somewhere along the line, Snape needs unshakable proof of his devotion to Dumbledore, or his life will be virtually forfeit once Voldemort is destroyed.

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did Voldemort accidentally turn Harry into a Horcrux? It seems... likely

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But somewhere along the line, Snape needs unshakable proof of his devotion to Dumbledore, or his life will be virtually forfeit once Voldemort is destroyed.

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I am fully expecting Snape to be dead by the end of book 7.

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Originally posted by Humean316:


"But why would Dumbledore want to die? He's so crucial to the fight against Voldemort. Probably the most crucial after Harry"

I was thinking about this too and here is what I think. He knew he would have to die to protect Snape, Draco and Harry. But more than anything, DD realizes that Harry has to kill Voldemort ON HIS OWN. Unfortunately, Harry could not do so if DD was around because he would lean on him. In a way, I think DD has made the ultimate sacrifice for the magical community, Snape, Draco, and Harry. By doing so, he has set the stage for Harry to fulfill the prophecy and achieve what no one else can. In this book, DD set Harry on the path, found the one Horcrux that could not be destroyed by only person (or attempted too), and the got out of the way so that Harry could finish what they both started.

In the end, I dont think Snape will help Harry directly, but on his own, Harry will figure out the special role Snape plays and that will help him to destroy Voldemort.

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I think HUmean316 is right abou this. DD needed to die so that Harry could fulfill his destiny alone. Having/allowing Snape to kill him was necessary to force Harry to finally become self relaint to the degree that he needs to be to take on Voldimort. Also, with DD out of the way Voldimort will surely become more visible and Harry will be able to confront him easier.

Snape will report back to the Dark Lord and work closely with him which will inspire Harry even further.

Finally RAB will probably have collected the rest of the Horcruxes, which is great since Harry is really not a good enough wizard to find them on his own. Harry will probably steal them so that he can destroy them and finally face Voldimort.
 

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Posted by RoyHobbs (Member # 7594) on :
 
I have read all the recent interview transcripts w/ Rowling and after much deliberation this is my view of the real situation during and after HBP.

1) DD knew he was going to die soon and so he was preparing to die throughout the whole book. The only thing he had left to do was to make Harry's path to killing Voldemort (all 5 parts of him) easier.

DD did this by...
A - Getting Harry allies deeper into Voldemorts trust. Snape will now be VM's right hand man and will be in position to deal him a devastating blow when the time comes. Also, we know have the possibility of Malfoy and his mother coming to the good side as well.

B - Letting Harry in on the secret of Horcruxes and what he must do to destroy them. I think we will hear more from DD in Book 7 on the subject as well - either in the form of a letter previously written or through the portrait.


2) Yes, Snape is on the good side, as hard to believe as it is. The only way he could have stayed a DE is to have fooled VM into thinking he hated HP and DD. This took the acting job of the century. When VM looked into Snapes head, he ACTUALLY saw genuine hatred for DD and HP. BUT... I believe that Snape is bound to DD and HP by an Unbreakable Vow that will be key in Book 7.

I think the final confrontation will come between HP and DD after Harry destroys the Horcruxes. It will be between Harry and VM and his right hand men, Snape and Peter Pettigrew (who owes Harry a life debt). This will put Snape into perfect position. I think the parallel is the confrontation between Bean and Achilles with his right hand man Suriyawong at the end of Shadow of whatever....

SNAPE IS SURIYAWONG!!

And Voldemort is dead, though, ultimately Harry must deal the death blow, as Bean did.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
Katie, I'm betting on number 2. Anyone who read classic series such as the "Dark is Rising" books know that there are some books that are darker than others in any series. That doesn't mean it can't be redeemed at the end.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I know that it happens. It doesn't mean the first isn't still a possibility.

It not only happens, but true Hero stories MUST get very, very dark before the end.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
And I think it's good for kids to read real Hero stories.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Whatever story JKR wants to write will be fine with me. She's earned it - she can do whatever she wants. Even the dark one. I'll still applaud.

However, considering she has recently acquired a lovely new family and some really sweet soft looks in her eyes, I can't imagine her writing the first story now.
 

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Posted by Nato (Member # 1448) on :
 
I always thought Snape was the most interesting character. I still think he might turn out alright in the end...
 

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Posted by Humean316 (Member # 8175) on :
 

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I am absolutey convinced that when Dumbledore drank the potion, the words he spoke were actually Snape's words not Dumbledore's.

For the sake of argument, let's assume that Snape and Dumbeldore had a secret agreement, probably something very similar to what his agreement was to Harry. When the time comes, do what I say without question.

Listen to Dumbledore's words, could they be a verbal record of a message Dumbledore sends Snape after he realizes the potion is going to be fatal?

No, No, No, No, I can't, I can't, don't make me, I don't want to...."

Dumbledore tells him the time is now and Snape doesn't want to do it.

"It's all my fault, all my fault, Please make it stop. I know I did wrong, oh please make it stop and I'll never, never again...."

A glimpse of Snape's anguish over what he's done for LV. Could these be Dumbledore's words? What on earth could be all his fault? It doesn't make sense that Dumbledore would say this, but Lily and James' death really are Snape's fault and he knows it.

"Please, please, please, no... not that, not that. I'll do anything..."

Ask him to die for the cause but don't ask him to kill the one man who he admires in the world. The one person who trusted and gave him another chance.This really is tragic. I almost feel sorry for the git.

"I want to die! I want to die! Make it stop, I want to die."

This was his plan all along wasn't it? Break the vow he made to Narcissa, and die for it. Dumbledore had other plans though.

"KILL ME!"

These final words I believe are Dumbledore's alone. His final message to Snape.. Kill me.

any thoughts?

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Here

Now I wont take credit for that but I find it very interesting. I think he is right.
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
You need a password to get into that page.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Dagnabbit. I'm starting to not hate Snape as much. He really is a tragic figure.

*hugs the books* I love these books, these stories.
 

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Posted by Humean316 (Member # 8175) on :
 
The password is HBP (case sensitive).
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
Thanks.
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
Dumbledore had to drink a potion to get at the horcrux, but RAB had already drunk the original potion. Dumbledore said that the potion wouldn't kill, or at least not immediately, because Voldemort would want to find out how and why someone went after his horcrux. What if RAB decided that no one else but Voldemort would ever go looking for the horcrux again? He obviously thought that it would be Voldemort who would get the message. What if he refilled the hole thing with a poisonous potion?

This theory might not hold water (or potion) after all. Would RAB have put all of the original spells on everything so that the potion had to be drunk? Probably if he really did want to kill Voldemort. Hmmm.... I'll have to think this one over. Any thoughts?
 

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Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
 
Well, she did say that books 6 and 7 really are more like one story than two seperate books. Which makes it very hard to judge this one by itself (like it's ever been easy to judge one Potter book alone).

Now that so much has been explained, I'm finding myself wondering exactly why and how the bond between Voldemort and Harry was created. There's no real way to know, I suppose, since no one has ever survived Avada Kedavra or had it rebound upon them. The entire scenario is so unique, even Dumbledore doesn't seem to understand the specifics of it.

Man, that book sure kicked me in the face at the end. I was certain the HBP would show up and save the day (perhaps not Dumbledore). I never, ever suspected it to be Snape. For 5/6ths of the book, I was wondering exactly why the heck she had named the book like she did. This Half Blood Prince doesn't seem to be very important at all. Then BLAM.

In a way, the plot of the book starts with Snape, and ends with him.
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
Well, technically it starts with the Prime Minister dreading a call from Bush.
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
How fast would this make it into a dictionary?
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 

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Originally posted by katharina:
Dagnabbit. I'm starting to not hate Snape as much. He really is a tragic figure.

*hugs the books* I love these books, these stories.

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did Voldemort accidentally turn Harry into a Horcrux? It seems... likely

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It seems highly unlikely to me. I don't get the impression that Horcruxes can be created by accident, and Voldemort would have had to have been an idiot to turn Harry into one.

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She has lost the hopeful quality of the books as we are reminded again and again that we will lose the ones we love.

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She clearly has moved her audience base. She was a childrens author (scholastic doesn't do adult fiction) now she is more a young adult author.

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But somewhere along the line, Snape needs unshakable proof of his devotion to Dumbledore, or his life will be virtually forfeit once Voldemort is destroyed.
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I am fully expecting Snape to be dead by the end of book 7.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, but Snape doesn't know about book 7.

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quote:

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I really doubt that Dumbledore was replaying some conversation with Snape -- or speaking Snape's part -- when he drank that potion.
Rather, I believe the potion hurt so much, and took him to such a dark place, that he actually wanted to die. I think it broke him -- and I think he knew, going in, that it would break him.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Glenn Arnold:
"Angiomorphism, do you really think that is funny?"

Well, it is a humor column. And it belongs in the Rove thread.

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Didn't realize that. I thought it was an actual news story.
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Tinros:
Is there any possiblity that Dumbledore was MISTAKEN in trusting Snape? Now... did anyone catch the "look of triumph in Dumbledore's eye" at the end of book four? I have a theory about this, because it hasn't been fully explained. I think that Harry's mother dying for him didn't just protect Harry from Voldemort... I think it put a barrier between the two, so Harry couldnt hurt Voldemort either. I also thing Dumbledore KNEW he was going to die, and couldn't help Harry kill Voldemort. Thus, when he saw that the barrier was gone between Harry and Voldemort, he was happy because he knew that Harry could now kill Voldemort, whereas leaving the barrier there would allow neither to harm the other. What do you think?

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quote:

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Now... did anyone catch the "look of triumph in Dumbledore's eye" at the end of book four?

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quote:

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They also still haven't named the bartender of the Hog's Head. I still think it is Dumbledore's brother, who was mentioned last book but has not had any further information revealed about him.

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quote:

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Having now finished my third read, is anyone else curious about Dumbledore saying "Your blood is more valuable than mine"-- and then Harry using his blood to open the doorway? What do you think it will mean down the road? Didn't Voldemort already use Harry's blood? What else will he be able to do with it?

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quote:

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Now... did anyone catch the "look of triumph in Dumbledore's eye" at the end of book four?

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quote:

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hook up Ron and Hermione(okay, so maybe not, but I can hope, right?)

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Ron and Hermione have already hooked up. Ron told her he loved her, and they paired off and held hands at the funeral. I think that the fact that they havnen't kissed is a bit of Rowling's comment on the nature of love. Ron and Hermione are really in love, but not in lust. So the "hook up" passed quietly, as their friendship matured into a loving relationship.
 

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Posted by Vid (Member # 7172) on :
 
I'm sorry, but I don't have time to read all 5 pages leading up to this one, so I'm just gonna give my input and back it up as much as possible:

1) Ginny and Harry will get back together. Ginny's not the type of girl to just roll over and let Harry go. I've even go so far as to say they'll elope at the beginning of the book - the Weasley parents did, and Mrs. Weasley justified it that they were made for each other. Same justification that Harry and Ginny will use?

2) Snape is a LOT more powerful than anyone is giving him credit for. All the spells and potion stuff he created as the HBP in his textbook are one example, but also he is a strong enough Legilimens(sp?) to either fool Dumbledore or Voldemort, since both were convinced that Snape was working for themselves.

3) This is the big one: Harry is the sixth horcrux. It might be his scar, technically, but either way, Harry is or possesses a horcrux. Here's the justification: p. 506, last full paragraph: "He [Voldemort] seems to have reserved the process of making Horcruxes for particularly significant deaths... I [Dumbledore] am sure that he was intending to make his final Horcrux with your [Harry's] death." I can go more in depth if anyone requests
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
He meant to make the horcrux, but the spell backfired and there was no murder. Even if you can find some justification for that, he still couldn't have cast the spell that actually creates the horcrux. The murder itself isn't all of it. I don't think it's possible that any horcrux came of his attempt at killing Harry.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
I wonder what object he intended to make his Horcrux with Harry's death?
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
Good question. Does anyone remember the description of the ruined house and whether anything was found there?
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
Good question. Hadn't thought of that.
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
I don't think they mention much except that the house was destroyed and Sirius pulled him out of the ruins. (Or did Hagrid pull him out? Sirius didn't want Hagrid to take Harry.)
 

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Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
 
Can anyone tell me what the word shufti is? Found on page 460 and used in the sentence

quote:

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...we're going to be having a shufti to see if it's solid, aren't we, we're not going to be asking, 'Excuse me, are you the imprint of a departed soul?'" -Ron

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I'm not too up on my British lingo.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Meaning of shufti
 

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Posted by starlooker (Member # 7495) on :
 
A very plausible theory

After I read this, I felt like book seven had been spoiled for me. That's the theory I am going with.
 

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Posted by Eck (Member # 8324) on :
 
R.A.B. - Regulus Augustus Black

Sirius' brother.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Good book...until the part about how the Horcrux was protected.


One of the worst thought out, idiotic plot devices ever. I didn't like this book very much, to be honest, because of the poor ideas that went into that part, and the poor writing and execution of it.


Kwea

[ July 19, 2005, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
 

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Posted by Eck (Member # 8324) on :
 
I am holding opinion to decide if I like this book. If book 7 turns out how it could then this book will be a great addition; however, this book cannot stand on it's own. There is not enough story in this book for it to stand alone. This book needs book 7 unlike other books which were all good by themselves.

I did think she had one of her best ideas with the Horcruxes. I liked it.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
I liked that...but what a lame defence of it, it really blew the suspention of disbelief for me.
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
From starlooker's quote:

quote:

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But back up a moment: Snape gazes at the Headmaster for a moment. Two accomplished Legilimens do nothing but look at each other for a moment in the midst of a heated battle situation, and we are to assume there is nothing passing between them?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Humean316:
"since both were convinced that Snape was working for themselves."

What if the way Snape convinced Voldemort that he was loyal was to take a horcrux? Hmmm...must see if I can back that up.

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quote:

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Originally posted by MidnightBlue:
He meant to make the horcrux, but the spell backfired and there was no murder. Even if you can find some justification for that, he still couldn't have cast the spell that actually creates the horcrux. The murder itself isn't all of it. I don't think it's possible that any horcrux came of his attempt at killing Harry.

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quote:

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I thought that I would give you something though, rather than get to the end of today and think that I have not given you a lot. There are two questions that I have never been asked but that I should have been asked, if you know what I mean. If you want to speculate on anything, you should speculate on these two things, which will point you in the right direction. The first question that I have never been asked—it has probably been asked in a chatroom but no one has ever asked me—is, “Why didn’t Voldemort die?” Not, “Why did Harry live?” but, “Why didn’t Voldemort die?” The killing curse rebounded, so he should have died. Why didn’t he? At the end of Goblet of Fire he says that one or more of the steps that he took enabled him to survive. You should be wondering what he did to make sure that he did not die—I will put it that way. I don’t think that it is guessable. It may be—someone could guess it—but you should be asking yourself that question, particularly now that you know about the prophesy. I’d better stop there or I will really incriminate myself. The other question that I am surprised no one has asked me since Phoenix came out—I thought that people would—is why Dumbledore did not kill or try to kill Voldemort in the scene in the ministry. I know that I am giving a lot away to people who have not read the book. Although Dumbledore gives a kind of reason to Voldemort, it is not the real reason. When I mentioned that question to my husband—I told Neil that I was going to mention it to you—he said that it was because Dumbledore knows that there are two more books to come. As you can see, we are on the same literary wavelength. [Laughter]. That is not the answer; Dumbledore knows something slightly more profound than that. If you want to wonder about anything, I would advise you to concentrate on those two questions. That might take you a little bit further.

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quote:

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“Why didn’t Voldemort die?” Not, “Why did Harry live?” but, “Why didn’t Voldemort die?”

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I believe that she said somewhere else that it would be answered in book six, so from what I can see she's referring to the horcruxes.

Am I the only one who gets really happy when this thread goes onto another page?
 

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Posted by dabbler (Member # 6443) on :
 
I'm suddenly reminded of the Lloyd Alexander books.. A character in the Taran books also had a horcrux... remember?
 

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Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
 
I don't think the books are particularly well-written, though she's getting better with each one, I think. (I don't think tricky plot twists make for a good book. They show the hand of the author too powerfully, maybe. They keep reminding us that this story is partly farcical, which it's supposed to be, which is funny and cool, but which does serve to remind us of the author behind it all, teasing us and tweaking things. The best books don't have authors sitting there winking at us, you know? The best books just are.) But with every book she comes up with one or two new things that are wonderful and real. Things that resonate inside you because you've always known they are true. The enormous protective power of Lily Potter's love for Harry is one of those things.

The one that struck me in this book was when Dumbledore said to Harry, "[Voldemort] was in such hurry to mutilate his own soul, he never paused to understand the incomparable power of a soul that is untarnished and whole."

It's things like that that make me love these books.
 

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Posted by RoyHobbs (Member # 7594) on :
 
Amen, Tatiana!!

 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
In talking with my son about D&D, we realized that Voldemort is a lich. Although the requirement of a murder isn't something we came across, the horcrux idea isn't really so new. Liches do have to be really evil though.
 

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Posted by Wendybird (Member # 84) on :
 
I don't buy into the HP is a horcrux theory. I just don't see Harry's similar abilities as parts of LV's soul. A soul is so much more than just a few abilities. It is possible that some of those abilities Harry would have had anyway but he is linked with LV because of the deflected curse.

What if R.A.B. is someone we already know but we don't know them by those initials? Kinda like Tom Riddle changes his name to Lord Voldemort. It would take a pretty powerful wizard to get through to the horcrux in order to take it....

I really must go to bed now. Finishing the book and then reading 7 pages of posts is making me sleepier
 

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Posted by Vid (Member # 7172) on :
 
I had posted on a completely different forum that, IMO, the biggest evidence against RAB being Regulus Black is that everyone thinks that's who it is I'm too used to being fooled.

How many of Harry's "similar abilities" are just extraordinary talents that he, being the son of two extraordinary wizards, already would have had, and how many are things he got from V?

1) He's a parseltongue.
2) He and Voldemort have a very, very easy time into each other's minds accidentally when they're not trying to block each other.
3) The Sorting Hat wanted him to be a Slytherin... which Dumbledore said was major Voldemort vibes.

It's late, and I know there's more, but I'm pretty sure those are the 3 big ones. To me it seems like that's a little heavy for just a curse that left a scar.
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
I don't remember Voldemort saying that it was at all related to Voldemort that the Sorting Hat wanted him to be in Slytherine, but I could be wrong.

As for RAB being a new character, JKR has said that it is possible to guess who it is, and that she's not introducing any new major characters in book seven. Any new characters will not be important, though there may be major characters who've only been mentioned; we might not have really met them yet.
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
You know, I'm really glad I wasn't alive when LotR was being published because I would've had to wait between installments. Being born some decades later means I don't have to wait a couple bloody years to find out what happens next!

(Actually I don't remember if LotR was published back to back or not).

I gotta hand it to Rowling, she's definitely keeping me very interested. I was very much expecting to find out what the real deal between Snape and Dumbledore was.

------------

As far as Snape killing Dumbledore: here have simply been far too many unexplained instances in the past for me to take anything at face value about that. I am almost certain, though, that Snape has not betrayed Dumbledore and been the true servant of Voldemort all along. Too many other known facts and likely suppositions just speak too strongly against that.

For one thing, Dumbledore almost certainly had something other than Snape's confession of remorse as reason for trusting him. Remember his recollections of dealing with Tom Riddle to Harry? At one point he explains to Harry that no, he didn't reveal Tom's sordid past (sociopathic, really), but he certainly didn't trust Tom Riddle, and kept a careful eye on him. He was giving Tom a chance at redemption and becoming an honorable or at least decent man...but it would've and did take more to make Dumbledore trust Riddle.

Whereas Dumbledore trusts Snape with his life, frequently. He also trusts Snape with the lives of his friends and charges, even more often. Clearly since he would not trust one person with a bad past just on their word (not that Riddle ever gave his word, come to think of it), he wouldn't trust Snape on just a confession of remorse.

Snape has had many, many, many opportunities to murder Dumbledore and members of the Order of the Phoenix, Harry Potter and his circle of friends, pretty much all of the good guys-he's even had chances to murder them all at the same time at one stroke! Taken independantly, it's possible Voldemort would have ordered Snape to preserve his cover and not take action. But all of those times?

Why would Voldemort possibly trust Snape not to betray him? Voldemort has *ahem* 'trust issues', obviously.

Would Dumbledore really permit someone of such surpassing cruelty and caprice teach his charges if there weren't a reason of certainty behind it? If a confession of remorse is all Dumbledore had from Snape...wouldn't his constant torment of pretty much everyone except Slytherins detract from his credibility?

Since when does Dumbledore plead for his life? It was like a switch was flipped: he was the calm, collected, quietly defiant hero one moment and the next moment he was pleading. Pleading for what? Certainly not his life.

It is very unlikely that Snape was suffiently powerful enough mind-wizard (I forget the terms) to so successfully hoodwink Dumbledore for all those years. If he was so powerful, certainly Voldemort would have been threatened by him-and such people don't just keep on living.

No, something fishy is definitely going on, and it's not as cut-and-dried as a murderous betrayl.

------

As for R.A.B., I have no idea. A member of the Black family seems possible, even though there just weren't many of them left alive when Voldemort was making his Horcruxes, and so very few indeed could've stolen it. But it's possible a Black thought dead might've stolen it.

And just because R.A.B. stole the Horcrux doesn't mean he's a good guy.

Here's my personal favorite theory, one which I realize doesn't fit the story and is extremely unlikely: R.A.B. is a Muggle. A Muggle who has found some non-magical means to overcome the enormous disadvantage all Muggles face when dealing with magical creatures. Kind of like in the old series Gargoyles in which magic is energy, and science is energy, and sufficiently advanced science is just as potent and can overcome magic. But I know, I know, it won't happen.

But maybe R.A.B. won't be human. Perhaps he is a centaur, or a house-elf, or a giant, or a vampire, or (and this is the one I'm hoping for second-most that I think could actually happen) a goblin. We don't hear much about goblins except that they're not always fond of the wizarding world, they're exceptional craftfolk, they control the banking systems, and they're looked down-upon by many wizards and witches.
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 

quote:

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It is very unlikely that Snape was suffiently powerful enough mind-wizard (I forget the terms) to so successfully hoodwink Dumbledore for all those years. If he was so powerful, certainly Voldemort would have been threatened by him-and such people don't just keep on living.

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quote:

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You know, I'm really glad I wasn't alive when LotR was being published because I would've had to wait between installments. Being born some decades later means I don't have to wait a couple bloody years to find out what happens next!

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quote:

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Could you imagine waiting for Return of the King after the end of Two Towers?

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Maybe it was like waiting for the movie.
 

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Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
 
Y'know, I don't know if JKR will be able to pull this off... but it would be great if -- even AFTER book 7 comes out -- we'll still be arguing over Snape's motives and whether or not he was a good guy...
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
Kat, did you not read the books before seeing the movie? Or were you just that into the movies?
 

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Posted by Sharaith (Member # 8385) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by plaid:
Y'know, I don't know if JKR will be able to pull this off... but it would be great if -- even AFTER book 7 comes out -- we'll still be arguing over Snape's motives and whether or not he was a good guy...

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I think I would hate Rowling forever if she did that. Snape's been sitting on the fence for so long... What is he now, a quadruple-crosser? A quintuple-crosser?
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I did not read the books before the movies, and I was relatively unspoiled. After Two Towers, someone did tell me what happened at Mt. Doom, but everything else was sort of in the air. As much as the ending to a triumphant hero story can be.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
I'm so scandalized, Kat.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I know; it's horrifying. I kept it hidden in case they made me turn over my Hatrack Membership card.
 

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Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
 
You heard it here first: I think Harry is the last Horcrux, bought with the deaths of his mother and father. To destroy Voldemort, he will have to find some way to assimilate or destroy the Voldemort within. Enough clues have been dropped. Harry hasn't really wrestled with his own dark side. He had no problem hurtling the worst curses he knew at Snape. He's never treated Draco kindly.

Just you wait and see.
 

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Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
 
I haven't made it all the way through this monster thread yet (I've finished reading the first three pages), but I thought this conversation with my husband was pretty amusing.

Background: He doesn't read fiction, but he does really like the HP series -- we've been listening to it on tape. He loved book 4 but thought 5 was much more weakly plotted and written. It will be a LONG time before we are able to borrow 6 on CD and finish listening to it.

Me: HP6 was a great book -- I think you'll like it a lot more than 5.
Him: Well, I'm glad nobody dies in it.
Me: (Pause) How do you know nobody dies?
Him: Because you don't like books with sad endings.
Me: That's true.

So do you think I can protect him long enough from all the spoilers out there??? Bless his heart.

-lizb
 

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Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
 
Hey - can Voldemort possess anyone when in a human form? That's a thought. As the ghost-like creature he is when he's robbed of his body, he can possess almost any living thing (including squirrels, snakes, and humans). But when he's human, can he possess just plain anything?

It wouldn't make much sense if he could. I just don't see it happening. If he could, we would've heard about it on a much larger scale. But, as things are, he's possessed only two things: 1) Nagini and 2) Harry. One of which is a Horcrux almost for sure (since when is Dumbledore wrong? But that may be up in the air right now) - the other is debatable.

The ability for the primary soul shard to possess a living Horcrux might be one of the definitive characteristics. Sure, Voldemort can talk to snakes - but Dumbledore practically pointed out that during Arthur Weasley's attack, Voldemort was possessing Nagini (and Harry was occupying Voldemort - Nagini must've had a REAL headache). The ability to POSSESS snakes goes a little beyond parseltongue.

I think Harry might be a living Horcrux, created by the death of Lord Voldemort. More than likely, he had the situation set up so that he would create a new Horcrux as soon as Harry was dead and he had prepared things accordingly. However, the curse backfired and part of Voldemort was invested in little Harry. I mean, I don't see any other reasonable explanation for why Harry is a parseltongue. In book 2, Dumbledore said that during the night of the attack, Voldemort had inadvertendly transferred some of his power to Harry. I supremely doubt if this is just a side effect of surviving an unforgivable curse. DD basically said, "Well, that night he accidentally took part of himself and put it into you." Man, that sure sounds a lot like how Horcruxes are made, doesn't it? To quote Harry and Dumbledore:

quote:

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"He put a bit of himself in me? Harry said unbelievingly.

"It certainly seems so."

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quote:

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But, as things are, he's possessed only two things

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quote:

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Originally posted by TomDavidson:

quote:

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But, as things are, he's possessed only two things

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Three, counting Quirrell.

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quote:

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Originally posted by fil:
Then again, VM wanted Harry dead in the Sorcerer's Stone book... hmmm...and then the second one....hmmm...

I don't know. I do know that waiting 2-3 years for the next one is going to boggle my mind. Aiieee!!

Regarding it being "too dark" i have to wonder if the times we live in have peppered JKR's outlook. Her first books came out before the "war on terror" got so hot (Yes, I know it really didn't start at 9/11...the Brits have dealt with it far longer than we have...) but the overal mood of the world really took a dive after 9/11. I have to wonder if the mood of the world effected her outlook that made its way into the books? Who knows. I love them either way.

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quote:

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Originally posted by dabbler:
I'm suddenly reminded of the Lloyd Alexander books.. A character in the Taran books also had a horcrux... remember?

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quote:

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does anyone know if she had the basic plotline of the 7 stories, like a this is how it'll start, this is how it'll end and these things have to happen in between when she first started out?

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quote:

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I don't think the Horcrux must be destroyed to destroy the part of Voldemort's sole that is in it. Didn't DD say that the ring was harmless after he had removed V's soul fragment from it?

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quote:

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Why was the book even called half blood prince... It isnt even a major part of the novel.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sharaith:

quote:

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Originally posted by plaid:
Y'know, I don't know if JKR will be able to pull this off... but it would be great if -- even AFTER book 7 comes out -- we'll still be arguing over Snape's motives and whether or not he was a good guy...

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I think I would hate Rowling forever if she did that. Snape's been sitting on the fence for so long... What is he now, a quadruple-crosser? A quintuple-crosser?

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quote:

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My mentor, my beloved Dumbly-dore. Nitwit. Bubber. Oddball. Tweak. I miss you!!!

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quote:

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Snape - not evil, my fellow dudes. He's Suriyawong only older, greasier, nastier and with an odd obession to bat-like clothing and experssions.

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quote:

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Sirius could have been turned into some sort of ghostly being or something who can still communicate to Harry through that mirror that he has.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eisenoxyde:
Why is everyone forgetting about Dumbledore's brother Aberforth? Moody mentioned him in passing while showing Harry the original Order of the Pheonix. I'd bet almost anything that the focus will be on him.

Jesse

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quote:

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Maybe Dumbledore is not dead, we dont see his body until Hagrid and Harry come rushing over after some time. A switch of bodies? Polyjuice potion?

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So you can see, this theory was mentioned at least as far back as page 3. I don't think it holds much water, though. She's said that she keeps killing off all of the members of the Order that she likes most. He's dead. It's sad. Accept it.
 

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Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
 
Crossover cartoon, funny and touching:


 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
*giggle* That's so cute! But where's Ginny? *confused*
 

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Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
 
when someone under polyjuice potion dies or is knocked unconscious, they revery back to their real body, the way the thing with Mad-Eye and Mr. Crouch or whatever his name was was. Plus, I think they would have checked to make sure it was him before going to all the trouble of that fancy funeral. It couldn't have been cheap.
 

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Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
 
I don't understand, except for denial, how anyone can suggest that Snape isn't evil or Dumbledore isn't dead. There is no reason to think otherwise, and she's not gonna cheapen his death by miraculously bringing him back in 7. But Harry's still not on his own, he's got the Order, he's got his friends and Fawkes is gonna be back....The only thing I can think of with Snape is that MAYBE he and DD set this up so that Snape could be in a position to betray Voldemort (yeah, like Suri). But I consider this highly highly unlikely.

But is RAB still alive? That's what I want to know - I thought Sirius was the last Black. Also, how the hell is Harry going to be powerful enough to kill Voldemort? Unless 7 takes place over several years, I don't see how he is going to become strong enough magically - he's gonna have to get lucky to win, or at least it won't be purely skill.
 

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Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
 
Oh, this is good, from TLC/Mugglenet:

MA: R.A.B.

JKR: Ohhh, good.

[All laugh.]

JKR: No, I'm glad! Yes?

MA: Can we figure out who he is, from what we know so far?

[Note: JKR has adopted slightly evil look here]

JKR: Do you have a theory?

MA: We've come up with Regulus Black.

JKR: Have you now?

MA: Uh-oh.

[Laughter.]

JKR: Well, I think that would be, um, a fine guess.

MA: And perhaps, being Sirius’s brother, he had another mirror –

JKR: [drums fingers on soda can]

MA: Does he have the other mirror, or Sirius’s mirror —

JKR: I have no comment at all on that mirror. That mirror is not on the table. [Laughter from all; Jo's is maniacal.]

MA: Let the record note that she has drummed her fingers on her Coke can in a very Mr. Burns-like way
 

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Posted by Hamson (Member # 7808) on :
 
All right. I've finished reading the book, and I've finished the thread. The book seemed to go by faster.... I've been taking notes to myself while reading EVERYONES comments. This is in hope to put the peices together.

I'm going to type the parchment with RAB on it out so everyone will have it as a reference:

quote:

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To the Dark Lord
I know I will be dead long before you read this
but I want you to know that it was I who discovered your secret.
I have stolen the real Horcrux and intend to destroy it as soon as I can. I face death in the hope that when you meet your match, you will be mortal once more.
R.A.B

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quote:

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when someone under polyjuice potion dies or is knocked unconscious, they revery back to their real body, the way the thing with Mad-Eye and Mr. Crouch or whatever his name was was. Plus, I think they would have checked to make sure it was him before going to all the trouble of that fancy funeral. It couldn't have been cheap.

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quote:

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Another thoguht I had is that Bill will probably have an important battle with Greyback in book 7

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quote:

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Because he's shy and she's brash. I think they go together wonderfully.

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Gee, that reminds me of someone.
 

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Posted by Eisenoxyde (Member # 7289) on :
 
Whenver I think of the note from R.A.B. it reminds me of I play. There is a note you can find that says "Dear Lubaf, I'm sorry to disappoint you but you won't be able to find the Scroll of Omnipotence
 

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Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
 

quote:

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Well, if you were signing a letter to Voldemort saying you'd just gotten done defying him in hopes that he'd be killed, would you be entirely truthful?

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That is an excellent point. I would've signed it "Beren's mother-in-law" or something.

quote:

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Not the case, even with Crouch Jr. PP lasts for an hour at a time, and Dumbledore admits that Jr. probably wasn't being as vigilant as normal that evening with his hourly doses, and it wore off naturally after a few minutes.

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I think SM is right. Getting killed or knocked unocnscious does not negate the effects of the Polyjuice Potion. The reason why people revert back to their original form when they're dead or disabled is because they can no longer take the potion at regular intervals.
 

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Posted by Eisenoxyde (Member # 7289) on :
 
Whenver I think of the note from R.A.B. it reminds me of I play. There is a note you can find that says "Dear Lubaf, I'm sorry to disappoint you but you won't be able to find the Scroll of Omnipotence in this place. I have hidden it more effectively. You will need to find the red rooster at dawn. Then you'll encounter the final challenge. With passionate hate, Alhacrast, Overlord of Jak-Nagiur."

Jesse

/obscure?
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
I've been watching this thread grow and grow while I waited to get my hands on the book, and then waited to read it. (Last night I only managed about 10 pages before I couldn't keep my eyes open -- probably because of the only getting 2 hours of sleep the night before. That so sucked! )

And now, having read the thread, I have nothing new to add. But that won't stop me from weighing in on a few issues.

I think Hogwarts will stay open, albeit with a significantly smaller staff and student body. And since Minerva is headmaster, there will need to be a deputy headmaster. Hagrid, maybe? If not, then I think perhaps Flitwick. I think the school will show up in book 7, but only 10-20% will take place there.

I do not think Harry is a horcrux. I am, in fact, not convinced that a person can be one. The implication was that Nagini, as a non-inanimate horcrux, was quite unusual.

I am leaning toward RAB being Regulus Black (it was the finger-drumming that convinced me ), but am not 100% convinced.

I absolutely KNEW, while reading the book -- in fact, immediately after Snape fired that green bolt at Dumbledore -- that he had done so at Dumbledore's request. He cannot be truly on the side of evil, and it's not merely because Dumbledore would have been so terribly wrong. It's because JKR has established a Rule: Snape is tormented but on the side of good, and Harry wants with all his heart to hate him. As was mentioned by a few people, I suspect the crisis in book 7 will come down to Harry being able to overcome his hatred of Snape and trust him.

Dumbledore was clearly in agony from the time he drank the potion, and was begging for release. The fact that his death would save Snape (and keep him in the position of Voldemort's trust) and keep Malfoy from becoming a killer are bonuses -- and something Dumbledore expected.

As for shipping, I've been a Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione shipper from way back. So I'm gleefully thrilled. And while I was not a Fleur fan until the end, she was absolutely marvelous. (I will not be the third or fourth person to quote the same line, but you know which it is. ) And Tonks + Remus surprised me, but makes an incredible amount of sense.

Now, let's discuss Harry being a BONEHEAD. When Clark tells Lois that he's breaking up with her for her own good, he is an IDIOT. And she promptly gets exposed to poison gas, and kidnapped to be offered as a ritual sacrifice to activate a magical Celtic mask.

When Harry tells Ginny he is breaking up with her for her own good, he is an IDIOT. I hope she doesn't end up dead, killed at Hogwarts while the Trio are off battling evil.

I didn't cry when Dumbledore died -- I accidentally saw a bit of a spoiler on another forum, and knew that he would (and suspected before that). Harry is, as he said, Dumbledore's man. And to become his own man, capable of taking on Voldemort, he needs to be no longer dependent on Dumbledore.

But what did make me cry was this:

quote:

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And Harry saw very clearly as he sat there under the hot sun how people who cared about him had stood in front of him one by one, his mother, his father, his godfather, and finally Dumbledore, all determined to protect him; but now that was over. He could not let anybody else stand between him and Voldemort; he must abandon forever the illusion he ought to have lost at the age of one: that the shelter of a parent's arms meant that nothing could hurt him. There was no waking from his nightmare, no comforting whisper in the dark that he was safe really, that it was all in his imagination; the last and greatest of his protectors had died and he was more alone than he had ever been before.

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Posted by Beanny (Member # 7109) on :
 
There are two points in the end of the book that I somehow missed, everyone is talking about them and I can't find them.

A) RAB's note.
B) When does Harry discover that it's a fake Horcrux? I only see him telling it to his friends.

Thanks!
 

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Posted by Lord Solar Macharius (Member # 7775) on :
 
Harry notices that the locket looks smaller than the one he saw in the memory, opens it, and finds RAB's note:

To the Dark Lord
I know I will be dead long before you read this
but I want you to know that it was I who discovered your secret.
I have stolen the real Horcrux and intend to destroy it as soon as I can. I face death in the hope that when you meet your match, you will be mortal once more.
R.A.B
 

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Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
 
I am assuming RAB is in fact dead, as his note says, right? If he wasn't, the Black household wouldn't have gone to Harry but it would have gone to RAB. I mean, RAB could be a Black but I think he is a dead Black.

I am curious about the conversations that Harry will no doubt have with Dumbledore the Painting. This will be a transition we have never seen before. While he won't be able to "protect" him he will be able to give as good advice as he did in life. It seemed in Book V that Dumbledore relied quite a bit on the various old headmasters for advice.

Who will be the new headmaster? I don't think they will close the school. I think the school and graduation will happen. It will be like season 3 of Buffy the Vampire Slayer...graduation and killing the Big Bad were all a part of the same thing: growing up and facing life. That sort of thing.

I think he will get over this "Peter Parker disses the woman he loves" ending just like Peter did in Spiderman 2. He already was starting to realize that he is only as good as those that surround him with love. Hopefully he won't wait for an entire book to figure that out. Look how great they were in Book V as a team. Very neat.

Ugh. So what young folk fiction to read next? I love YA and Juv. fiction. I read some, usually before and after the big Potter release. Any recommendations for a soothing YA balm to cool the sting of realization that we will have to wait at least 2 if not 3 years for the next one? Read the Eoin Colfer stuff (well, the first one anyway) and it was okay. Got the Pullman collection down (Sally Lockhardt and His Dark Materials). We got a book on CD for a trip to Chicago this weekend with Ella Enchanted and Spiderwick. Any other recommendations? Go back to the classics like L'Engle and Le Guin? Any other good ones? I know off topic but the wait is killing me already! Gah!
 

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Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
 
I feel like Voldy would have made all of his Horcruxes before going after HP. He'd almost definately killed enough people by that point to be able to make 6 of them.
 

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Posted by Lord Solar Macharius (Member # 7775) on :
 
About RAB from an interview:

ES: What's one question you wished to be asked and what would be the answer to that question?

JKR: Um — [long pause] — such a good question. What do I wish I could be asked? [Pause.] Today, just today, July the 16th, I was really hoping someone would ask me about R.A.B., and you did it. Just today, because I think that is — well, I hoped that people would.

MA: Is there more we should ask about him?

JKR: There are things you will deduce on further readings, I think — well you two definitely will, for sure — that, yeah, I was really hoping that R.A.B. would come out.

MA: Forgive me if I'm remembering incorrectly, but was Regulus the one who was murdered by Voldemort —

JKR: Well Sirius said he wouldn't have been because he wasn't important enough, remember?

MA: But that doesn’t have to be true, if [R.A.B.] is writing Voldemort a personal note.

JKR: That doesn't necessarily show that Voldemort killed him, personally, but Sirius himself suspected that Regulus got in a little too deep. Like Draco. He was attracted to it, but the reality of what it meant was way too much to handle.


And something funny:

ES: How much time do you go on the fan sites?

JKR: It really varies. When my site is quiet, it is genuinely because I'm working really hard or I'm busy with the kids or something. When I update a few times in a row, I've obviously been on the net. So the FAQs and that kind of stuff is just compiled by hard copy post that I get here and fan sites. I go looking to see what people want answered. It's fantastic, it's sometimes frustrating, but I do want to make clear, I do not post in comments, because I know that's been cropping up. You've both been really responsible about that, but that slightly worries me. I did go in the MuggleNet chatroom, it was hysterical. That was the first time I ever Googled Harry Potter. I was just falling into these things and Leaky — actually Leaky I already knew about, but I discovered MuggleNet that first-ever afternoon and I went in the chatroom, and it was so funny. I was treated with outright contempt. [Laughter.] It was funny, I can't tell you.

ES: I’d like to apologize for, uh -

JKR: No, no no no, not in a horrible way, but, "Yeah, yeah, shut up, you're not a regular, you don't know a thing." You can imagine!
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
Dumbledore said that he probably saved making horcruxes for the really big/important murders, so it's logical that he would try to make one out of the murder that will kill the person destined to oppose him. I'm guessing that Dumbledore had a pretty good idea of which murders he would've used to make horcruxes, and that there were probably five at the time that he was going to try to kill Harry.
 

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Posted by Kasie H (Member # 2120) on :
 
I'm now a follower of the R.A.B. being two people theory. If Dumbledore needed Harry to help him...who on earth could possibly get by all of the protections alone?

My guess is the 'A' stands for 'and'.
 

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Posted by Kasie H (Member # 2120) on :
 
Also -- do we ever learn the names of the two children Voldemort takes into the cave at the orphanage?
 

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Posted by Hamson (Member # 7808) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Kasie H:
I'm now a follower of the R.A.B. being two people theory. If Dumbledore needed Harry to help him...who on earth could possibly get by all of the protections alone?

My guess is the 'A' stands for 'and'.

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quote:

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Also -- do we ever learn the names of the two children Voldemort takes into the cave at the orphanage?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kasie H:
Also, I'm with everyone here in saying I don't think Snape is truly bad. Dumbledore keeps telling Harry he's different from Voldemort because he can love, and I think that's why Dumbledore trusts Snape. He must somehow know that Snape truly loved Lily Potter. I think, in a weird, twisted way, he probably loves Harry, too -- he's all that's left of Lily.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ketchupqueen:

quote:

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Also -- do we ever learn the names of the two children Voldemort takes into the cave at the orphanage?

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Um, yeah, right at the first time Harry sees a memory with Dumbledore, when he's talking to the matron of the orphanage.

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quote:

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Um, yeah, right at the first time Harry sees a memory with Dumbledore, when he's talking to the matron of the orphanage.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't think they ever give the names... (could be wrong, don't have the book on me)

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I forgot about the Gaunts, it's actually the second time he goes for a "lesson" with Dumbledore.

Page 268:

"'...And then,' -- Mrs. Cole took another swig of gin, slopping a little over her chin this time-- 'on the summer outing -- we take them out, you know, once a year, to the countryside or to the seaside -- well, Amy Benson and Dennis Bishop were never quite right afterwards, and all we ever got out of them was that they'd gone into a cave with Tom Riddle.'"
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
From the way it's worded, it seems like the soul is split whenever a wizard uses magic to murder; the Horcrux making can encapsulate the split piece of soul in an object at any time after that. However, I'm not sure how that jives with how many murders Voldemort has committed.
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
RAB
Amy Benson could be a possibility then (Though I don't think it's likely) because Amy could be her middle name and she knows where the cave is.

I still think it's Regulus.
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
You know, I was flipping past Prisoner of Azkaban on TV the other day and it was the scene in which Professor Lupin is telling Harry about one of the best virtues of his mother, her ability to see beauty in others especially when they don't see it in themselves.

I'm not sure if that one's in the book or not, but obviously in that scene it applied primarily to Lupin himself-being a werewolf must tear at someone with all sorts of self-loathing issues. But it could also apply to Severus Snape, perhaps even moreso.

That said, I don't remember anywhere anytime it being mentioned or even hinted at that Snape might have loved Lily Potter nee Evans, and in fact the only scene in which they ever interacted was the bullying scene between Potter, Black, and Snape in which Lily intervenes and Snape spurns her help.

Of course, his pride was doubtless very stung and he was humiliated, so his reaction isn't likely to be a true reflection of his feelings...but that's the only time I ever remember him interacting with Lily.

--------

On an unrelated note, I wonder just how much more potent a wizard Snape is than most everyone else? I kind of suspect that he was telling the truth to Harry when he said his father never attacked him unless it was four-against-one.
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
Four against one, but I don't Lupin ever actually did much (or rarely), and Wormtail would probably just stand there and laugh. Though if Snape tried too much in retaliation they would probably step in.
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
Oh, right, I forgot-it's unlikely Lupin participated much ever if at all, except to keep on reading or something.

I'm sure Wormtail probably got in on it, though.
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
He probably tried, but I got the impression (especially from the conversion at the Three Broomsticks where Harry was hiding under the table) that Wormtail wasn't that talented, or at least that he didn't appear so while at school. I'm guessing that even if he tried to get in on the action, he probably missed most of the time.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Even if you're right and 4-to-1 really boils down to 2-to-1, that still implies that Snape was quite skillful even when still in school. And wasn't he a year behind James and Sirius?

And that book of his dispelled any notion otherwise. Not only was he already a gifted potion-maker in school, he was coming up with quite an assortment of incantations. Which worked so well that James used them!

*muses* I wonder if perhaps the reason Lily did so well in Potions was because Severus helped her on occasion?
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
If he's so good at potions, and so good at breaking it down (as evidenced in HBP's book), why can't he teach it that simply? Is the intimidation factor really worth it?
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
*blink* Since when does skill equate to teaching ability? I know many people who are brilliant in their subject -- and absolutely miserable teachers.

In any case, I happen to think Snape is a good teacher. Except for the whole hating some students and favoring others thing, at least. His goal is not merely to teach students to make potions by rote; it is to teach them SKILLS they can only develop by trial and error.

Skills, mind, that Harry (and Ron) have strongly resisted learning. And I expect that will come back to bite them in book 7.
 

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Posted by Angiomorphism (Member # 8184) on :
 
I just read the JKR interview with the ppl from Mugglenet ( www.mugglenet.com ), and she seemed to hint that it is fully possible that Snape is infact simply evil... and when asked about Regulus, her reaction kind of lead me to believe that it's not going to be that easy. Anyway, read it and tell me all what you guys think (sry if this has already been discussed, but I just finished the book yesterday... actually, when I hadn't finished it, I wanted to post that joke article I did a few pages back, and I tried to not look at anything, but I couldn't, and ended up seeing that Dumbl. died.. booo-urns)
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Cross-polination

I posted a link to my post here in a HP thread on another forum, which has a high concentration of UKers.

quote:

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I read a few posts on that link you gave, Rivka - fun to see all the discussion, and I'm definitely with you on Snape. He can't be evil. I just don't believe it, and it makes no logical sense whatsoever.

. . .

Haven't some North American readers seen by now that 'graduation' isn't something that happens at Hogwarts??? In British/European schools, kids don't 'graduate' from school. They leave school. In Hogwarts' case, the kids will sit their NEWTS, leave, then get their results some time the following August. In the UK and Ireland, graduation is something that happens on completion of a university degree.

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quote:

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Even if you're right and 4-to-1 really boils down to 2-to-1, that still implies that Snape was quite skillful even when still in school. And wasn't he a year behind James and Sirius?

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quote:

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MA: OK, big big big book six question. Is Snape evil?

JKR: [Almost laughing] Well, you've read the book, what do you think?

ES: She's trying to make you say it categorically.

MA: Well, there are conspiracy theorists, and there are people who will claim -

JKR: Cling to some desperate hope [laughter] -

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quote:

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I haven't read many interviews after the fact. Would she say something like this that would turn out to have been so misleading if he were actually good?

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100% yes. She is VERY tricksy.

Never trust that woman when she is laughing.
 

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Posted by Angiomorphism (Member # 8184) on :
 
Yeah, I'm not fully convinced that dumbl. was really pleading for his life (which I guess could make sense after what we saw with the potion) or that snape really insn't evil anymore after reading that part (and part 2) of the interview.. damn tricky woman!

The way I see it, we are never going to figure out what will actually happen until we read the book. JKR is just amazing that way.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 

quote:

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I still think he's an exceptionally skilled wizard, and was while still a student.

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quote:

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He obviously isn't into sharing much, however, as his improvements on those recipes have not -- even twenty years later -- been incorporated into the new texts.

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Maybe. Or maybe magical textbook publishers are as bad as all-too-many Muggle ones.

Don't get me started.
 

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Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
 
Re: Snape as a good or bad teacher

Best teachers they've had are Lupin and Professor Sprout.

Snape does have that certain something that gets people to learn by terrifying them. They pay attention because they're scared not to. Surely Harry and Ron didn't get that E in Potions in spite of Snape -- they're not exactly the type to work hard outside of class to make up for a bad teacher! I think they got their relatively high marks BECAUSE of Snape's teaching (in spite of what Snape himself might have preferred. Figure that one out.)

That said, ahhhhbviously students would do better if they felt like the strict mean teacher was fair and cared about them, cf. McGonagall.
 

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Posted by Beanny (Member # 7109) on :
 
Being cold and ruthless can make someone a good manager. That doesn't make them a good leader, who ought to be attentive to those dependant on him (or her).

A teacher does't work in the stock market, but with children. Snape doesn't teach robots! Why should he be nasty?!

I agree with Liz B that it's legitimate to be tough and strict as long as you are also fair and care for your students - yay to McGonagall.
 

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Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
 
I had an epiphany last night (I haven't been sleeping well... ) when I wondered--How will Voldemort react to Snape killing Dumbledore? I mean, this is the only wizard Voldie ever feared, and Snape just waltzes in and accomplishes what Voldie tried to do on numerous occasions?

I think this fits into Rivka's (was it Rivka??) theory about Snape trying to set himself up as Voldemort's dark rival. The death eaters might be divided, realizing that maybe Voldemort was a big pansy after all, and allying themselves with the new superpower--Snape.

At this moment, Snape will either pull a fantastic Suriawong Maneuver, pawning the deatheaters to achieve Good ends and leaving Voldemort alone to be handled by Harry, or be killed in the effort by Harry, who "knew all along" that Snape was an evil evil piece of cud and finally proved himself to be so.
 

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Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
 
If the soul is split during EVERY murder, than Voldemort could have thousands of horcruxes, as would all the death eaters. I really think that it has to be a purposeful murder- "I will use this murder to split my soul." I really, really, REALLY don't think it can be accidental.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by sarcasticmuppet:
I think this fits into Rivka's (was it Rivka??) theory about Snape trying to set himself up as Voldemort's dark rival.

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*grin* Not mine. You really do need more sleep, m'dear.
 

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Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
 
If I could, I would. I think it's too hot.

If it's my original idea that Snape is trying to set himself up to rival Voldemort, then I'll happily claim dibs.

I'm feeling more strongly that Snape and Malfoy would have never joined up with the other deatheaters at Hogwarts, and only communicated with the one DE at all because Harry slowed them down.

I also wonder-- if Voldemort meant Snape to do Draco's task if he (Draco) died in the attempt, if he expected Snape to die in the attempt as well.

edit: Funny article! Harry Potter and the Compendium of Utterly Useless Trivia

quote:

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If all cigarette manufacture suddenly stopped in China, and the 73 per cent of the population who smoked managed to get their hands on all the Harry Potter books ever published, they would have enough paper to make themselves 20 roll-ups a day for the next 289 years.

---

 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 

quote:

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Okay, I just finished the book and started reading this topic. I only read the first couple of pages. I wanted to post my opinions on the Snape/Dumbledore situation before reading the rest.

Snape's main mission in the Order of the Phoenix is to get the Death Eater's, and more importantly, Voldemort to trust in him. Dumbledore most likely at one point told Snape to do whatever was necessary to keep that trust. I don't think Snape knew what Malfoy's mission was before asked to make the promise, but when asked to do it, what choice did he really have. 1. He could refuse, becoming less trusted among the Death Eaters, or 2. he could accept, hoping to learn what Malfoy’s mission was and prevent it from happening. Maybe even deep down he was hoping that Malfoy's mission was to kill Harry.

Later, we then hear Dumbledore and Snape arguing. At this point obviously Snape had found out what he had unknowingly promised to do. Dumbledore, who was having a difficult time finding the horcruxes realized how Snape could help. The best way, in fact probably the only way that Voldemort would ever fully trust Snape is if he killed Dumbledore. Obviously having Voldemort's trust at this time would be a very valuable thing because he is the only one who knows where the other horcruxes are.

Snape, now having Voldemort’s complete trust, has the possibility of getting Voldemort to reveal the locations to him. I can't see any other way we're going to fit everything else into the next book. Otherwise I think it would take Harry a very long time to even find the other horcruxes, let alone destroy them and kill Voldemort.

I hope that was clear. Sorry if this theory has already been posted.

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It was clear. It gives me hope. And I'm clinging.

I just finished the book, not an hour ago and I've been thrown into a really mean and nasty mood. Dammit! Admitting that Snape is evil and has been all along is offensive. It paints Dumbledore as being wise...well, except for that "Totally evil Death Eater on my staff" mistake. I just can't believe that DD would not have known, would have been so blind.

Nope. He just wouldn't have. I also can't believe that Snape would have resisted the urge to kill Harry for 5 whole years.

I'm clinging folks. Help me out, to save Dumbledore's reputation!! (BTW ?, I really like that theory.)
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
At minimum, Snape wouldn't have saved Harry from Quirrel, would he? That would have been the perfect opportunity to be rid of him with no comebacks to himself at all.

BTW, The sixth movie is where the casting of Alan Rickman will really pay off.
 

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Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
 
I agree about Alan Rickman, Dagonee, but remind you that Snape's own justification to Narcissa and Bellatrix is that the Dark Lord needed HP to be truly reborn.

Ah, it'll all come clear in Book VII. I'd rather wait than predict, although I do enjoy trying to decide if Snape is ultimately good or evil.

(Neither, like Harry. See how many times Harry has tried the Unforgivables since he learned about them??? He's no Sam Gamgee.)

Ultimately, I think "good" means that you think that the banality of human life is worth preserving. And that ultimately it's the most important thing there is.

Maybe I read too much poetry.
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
I know. I actually finally could picture him as Snape during this book. The twain met and became the character in my head. It's taken 6 books for that to happen (it still hasn't happened with Hermione, but it has happened with a few others, especially Ginny.)

Dag, you're right about the Quirrel thing. Snape even saved Harry again at the end of HBP when he told them to leave him alone. "He belongs to the dark lord!"
 

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Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
 
I was thinking as I read the second chapter "Oh, Alan Rickman is gonna be *great* at this..."


 

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Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
 
I K-NOW I read an article about the HP2 or 3 movie where Alan Rickman very enigmatically talked about things JKR had told him about his character, and that that had affected his performance. Of course, he didn't explain WHY.

Arrrgh. I hate predictions, though. It is what it is, and I will wait patiently for #7. I'm glad that someone reminded me of the overheard Dumbledore/Snape coversation, and that Sirius's brother's name is Regulus . . . but does anyone want to talk about ANYTHING other than what probably isn't going to happen in book VII????
 

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Posted by Hamson (Member # 7808) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by sarcasticmuppet:
I had an epiphany last night (I haven't been sleeping well... ) when I wondered--How will Voldemort react to Snape killing Dumbledore? I mean, this is the only wizard Voldie ever feared, and Snape just waltzes in and accomplishes what Voldie tried to do on numerous occasions?

I think this fits into Rivka's (was it Rivka??) theory about Snape trying to set himself up as Voldemort's dark rival. The death eaters might be divided, realizing that maybe Voldemort was a big pansy after all, and allying themselves with the new superpower--Snape.

At this moment, Snape will either pull a fantastic Suriawong Maneuver, pawning the deatheaters to achieve Good ends and leaving Voldemort alone to be handled by Harry, or be killed in the effort by Harry, who "knew all along" that Snape was an evil evil piece of cud and finally proved himself to be so.

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Hmmm I like that theory, whoevers it is. It fits with Snapes character about revealing whos side hes on until the last possible minute. But then again, it really doesn't help Harry and the Order unless he does this after he gets what he wants to know from LV. But then again I don't think LV would let him leave after he gets that kind of info... if he gets that kind of info... if LV could prevent him from leaving...
 

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Posted by Eisenoxyde (Member # 7289) on :
 
On my second reading of the book, I caught something that might have an implication in the next book regarding Snape. On page 549, it reads:

[Harry] ... how can you be sure Snape's on our side?"

Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely."

To me, it seems that Dumbledore was debating about telling Harry something that would fully explain why he trusted Snape so much, but decided against it. (Maybe because Snape wanted the reason to remain private.)

Something else was pointed out to me - since Dumbledore's portait is now in the headmaster's office, Harry would still be able to consult him and get information from him, he just isn't protected by him anymore. Also, he can tell Harry if he wanted Snape to kill him.

Jesse
 

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Posted by Moonshine (Member # 7893) on :
 
My huge pet peeve is subjunctive case mistakes. That bothers me profusely. So...I think that the story was way anticlimatic and although there is a lot of vocabulary...I can't get past the English mistakes. I'm glad that Harry wasn't super whiney though.
 

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Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
 
My biggest question, which I have seen no one on the last few pages address, is this: How is Harry going to be powerful enough to defeat Voldemort?
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Alone, he isn't. With Ron and Hermione (and maybe Ginny?) and probably Snape and probably a bunch of other help, he will be.

Such is the power of love. *cues violins*
 

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Posted by Hamson (Member # 7808) on :
 
Love?

Seems to be the only edge he has over LV as far as everyone (in Harry Potter) thinks.
 

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Posted by Hamson (Member # 7808) on :
 
Can someone remind me of the original signifigance Harry had to Voldemort, in terms of why was he killing him and his family as a baby?
 

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Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 
If you think about it, and this IS a dangerous way to think. If people were guessing right about Snapes motives in killing Dumbledore (i.e Snape was under orders/utilitarian theory. JK Rowling is obligated to steer us away from he actual plan. She would not encourage us to believe something that is in fact in book 7. Except for the parts where she is explicitly encouraging us to think a certain way (i.e figuring out who RAB is) take her discouraging comments with hesitation and dont disregard all that she laughingly brushes off.

There is NO way that its an accident that we find out about unbreakable vows in the same chapter as snape's meeting with the death eaters. And then find Snape doing something VERY out of character later in the book.

I still think its not Rowling's style to reveal snape as a traitor in chapter 2 of her book and then suddenly out of the blue have Snape act on it at the end of the book, with NO mention of snape making any further plans with the death eaters in between, or even contacting them.
 

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Posted by firebird (Member # 1971) on :
 
I'm only on page three of this mamouth thread but I have to say:

I fully agree that Dumbledore was asking Snape to kill him. To protect Snape, to protect Malfoy and also to put the responsibility firmly on Harry's sholders. We've all read Ender's Game, for Harry to become his most resourceful he needs to know that hunting down and killing Voldy his his responsibility an his alone. I'm torn as to whether I would like some Obi Wan esq moments in the next book ...

Snape 'I'm not a coward' is now going to bear the utmost torture of knowing that his allies believe him to be evil and have his enemies congratulate him for murdering the only only person who has ever been 100% on his side. So definately not a coward.

I love the Snape was in love with Lily idea. Perfect. Covers so much and explains how torn his is about Harry.

But ... Dumbledore did say that he could make mistakes and would make bigger and bigger ones.

Regelus Black ... I like it! And with Kreacher and Mungdungus ... fantastic!
 

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Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
 
Wouldn't it be cool if the modifications in Harry's potion book came from both Snape AND Lily?

Maybe they worked together after class and developed many of the shortcuts together (well, except the dark magic stuff I guess).
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Hamson:
Can someone remind me of the original signifigance Harry had to Voldemort, in terms of why was he killing him and his family as a baby?

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quote:

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*blink* Since when does skill equate to teaching ability? I know many people who are brilliant in their subject -- and absolutely miserable teachers.

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It doesn't. But as the HBP he was a much better teacher than as Snape. He explained things clearly in a way that Harry seemed to be able to recognize. I can understand how people say that having a teacher like Snape can make you work harder to try to prove yourself. But for that teaching style to work the teacher has to, in my opinion, give credit where credit is due. Even when the students manage to make a potion correctly, he still finds a way to turn it into a failing grade (unless they're in his house). So I think that while he may teach well, he's not a good teacher. But HPB is.

quote:

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My biggest question, which I have seen no one on the last few pages address, is this: How is Harry going to be powerful enough to defeat Voldemort?

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quote:

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The prophecy said that in trying to kill him, he would mark Harry as his equal. So they're equal in power, the question is whether Harry will be able to be quick enough and keep Voldemort distracted enough to gain an advantage.

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quote:

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As for Dumbledore, I don't think he "deserved" to die, but does anyone else think he had it coming? He made so many mistakes: Trusting Snape for a terrible reason; being overconfident about his protection for Hogwarts; not getting to Malfoy sooner, even though he knew what the kid was up to; and, finally, freezing Harry on the tower. What??? Harry could easily have disarmed Malfoy and DD would've kept his wand and things would have worked out alright. DD just made so many big mistakes.....obviously I'm not buying into the theory that Snape is really good (at least not yet).

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See, the only reason that I am buying into the "Snape really works for the good guys" theory is because I KNOW that Dumbledore couldn't have made such huge mistakes. He's a better wizard than Snape. He would have known. So I'm not buying into exactly the opposite of what you're not buying into.

[ July 22, 2005, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: Narnia ]
 

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Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
 

quote:

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See, the only reason that I am buying into the "Snape really works for the good guys" theory is because I KNOW that Dumbledore couldn't have made such huge mistakes. He's a better wizard than Snape. He would have known. So I'm not buying into exactly the opposite of what you're not buying into. [Big Grin]

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quote:

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JKR: Well, I'm prepared to bet you now, that at least before the week is out, at least one of the Horcruxes will have been correctly identified by careful re-readers of the books.

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
She said in a Time magazine interview that "I think I can say categorically that I will not write another fantasy after Harry. Wait, now I'm panicking."

I think that means no, but it's a little ambiguous.
 

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Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Promethius:
I dont see how Harry is going to come close to defeating the death eaters in this next book. Harry is such a novice wizard compared to the Death Eaters, Snape was deflecting Harry's spells left and right, it was childs play. What makes Harry think he is capable? Perhaps he will have some serious Auror training, like Auror boot camp or something. Things are looking grim if he does not go through a very significant transformation. How will he defeat them, with love as Dumbledore suggests?

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Compared to some of the death eaters (like Snape) Harry is a novice, but remember they stood up to them pretty well at the Ministry during year 5. One problem though is he lacks focus - for instance, he tried to take on Snape raging. He's gotta learn to keep his cool. But who knows, maybe the next book will actually take place over several years?
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
I could see him getting some short, intense training. Dumbledore expected him to learn Occlumency (which would do a lot to get his mind under more focused control) in a few months to block out invasions of his mind. I wouldn't be surprised if it was possible to learn DADA abilities, or Auror abilities in such a short period of time too, if he was given intensive training in it.

I'm a little curious as to who the next D.A.D.A teacher will be. You'd think all the really good people would be out there fighting against the Death Eaters. This is assuming they keep Hogwarts open, which I think they will. I haven't heard a lot of speculation on this yet on here, but I think they will. McGonagall will be headmistres, and they will need a new head of Gryffindor and a new Transfiguration teacher. But Lupin or someone in the order I bet will be brought in to teach DADA, and someone will be brought in for potions too.

Actaully, that is just wishful thinking. I WANT Hogwarts to be open, but it seems like Rowling is pushing VERY hard for it to not be. She says in that interview that Harry and Ginny would be parted, so not at the same school. And that's a lot of reshuffling with the staff to cover at the beginning of the next book. And there aren't really many qualified people to take the place of those that are now gone.
 

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Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
 
Yeah, I supremely doubt if Hogwarts will stay open, and even if it does, I don't think Harry will return to it.

This is all about growing up, remember. Rowling's seperating him from everything that makes him a child. Now he's going to have to go back and face the memory of the murder of his parrents - which he has never, ever seen in actual phsyicality.
 

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Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
 
Okay, here's a thought.

We don't know how Horcruxes work, exactly, only that they are storage devices. Nothing was mentioned about retrieval at any point. I mean, without knowledge of USB drives, a Flash Drive is pretty useless, no?

Say that the Horcrux itself must be *consumed* in order to be used, in that it, or some part of it, must be destroyed or used in the magic needed to bring the Big Bad back.

If this is true, would it be possible that Harry *was* a Horcrux, but that his blood was used at the end of Goblet of Fire to bring Voldy back - thus *consuming* that Horcrux?

Might this be the reason for Dumbledore's look of triumph?
 

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Posted by Beanny (Member # 7109) on :
 
Very brainy! I'm sure there's some connection between Harry's scar, the sixth Horcrux, and the generous blood donation in GoF. Your theory sounds like a good idea.
 

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Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
 
That's a good idea, but wouldn't Voldemort have already consumed a Horcrux to come back at that point? He had a sort of body - the blood only allowed him to get a real body back. So, what I mean is, he died when he tried to kill Harry. Then he sprung back from a Horcrux probably immediately afterwards. Then he was "lower than a ghost" for many years, until he eventually possessed Quirell, then got whatever goofy body he had before Goblet. Although....what happened to him after Quirell? When Quirell died, did Voldy have to use another Horcrux? This is getting pretty confusing....

Okay, so he died orginally, used a horcrux. Then MAYBE had to use another after Quirell. But I'm guessing he didn't need one to get his "real" body back, therefore, I'm betting the "look of triumph" was something else.
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
It said in the book that the blood of anyone would have worked, but that Harry's blood was extra special because it dissolved the shield Harry had against physical contact with Voldemort.

Thus, I'm doubting the Harry is a Horcrux theory.
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
I agree.
Harry is not a Horcrux. Voldermort was not expected the curse to rebound on him like that, it came as a shock to him, yet, even before he went after Harry he created his first Horcrux, possibly the diary, then maybe the second, the ring. The third and fourth ones are probably the Slytherin locket and the Hufflepuff cup. Then you have the mysterious fifth, sixth and seventh ones, but I don't think any of them are Harry, but the snake is.
Harry's blood is the blood of his mother whose last act of love, dying for him, left lingering protection.
Which is why Harry Potter has to stay with the Dursleys, bonded by blood to Aunt Petunia.
 

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Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
 
Good point.

Still, just a passing thought. I really don't buy the Harry as Horcrux idea, as I said before, because of the need for two separate events - the killing, and the creating.

I am intrigued, though, by a couple of things. Dumbledore never told Harry how to tell if something *is* or *is not* a Horcrux. I mean, it doesn't seem too apparent from the thing's physical appearance, you know?

I mean, Dumbledore himself couldn't tell that the locket he grabbed was not a Horcrux when he grabbed it, or at least he did not let on to Harry that this was the case. And Harry had to open it to see that it was a fake.

I mean, the Invisibility Cloak could be a Horcrux for all we know - could have been Rowena Ravenclaw's, even.

How is Harry to tell?

And, then, how is he to destroy it? I mean, the most powerful wizard in the world got a withered hand! And didn't let Harry in on exactly what sort of curse did that, or how it could be countered - only that Snape saved him.

(which, btw, further supports the idea that Snape didn't want Dumbledore dead, and that he acted for other motivations - perhaps at Dumbledore's orders)
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
Pretty much.
If Snape really wanted Dumbledore dead, he could have killed him then by slipping poison to him or something.
It would have been a better strategy anyway because then Harry would not know about the horcruxes.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Tatiana, thanks for the link! Great interview, even if she is entirely too fond of "no comment" and evil laughter. My favorite bit:

quote:

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I think, that I'm surprised when sometimes people say to me, “Oh, you know, the books are getting so dark.” I'm thinking, “Well, which part of ‘Philosopher's Stone’ did you think was light and fluffy?”

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quote:

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My sister and I have decided that A) Snape is good. (I'm clinging to this hope!) B) Harry will have a really hard time being convinced of this (well, I would too) and C) Snape will have to die saving Harry or fighting Voldemort for Harry to finally believe it. There. My prediction.

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quote:

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They have the whole wizarding world to draw from they just need creative solutions.

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It would be awesome if Fred and George are somehow involved in this process.
 

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Posted by Promethius (Member # 2468) on :
 
I think Dumbledore did not tell his reasons for trusting Snape because he did not want Voldemort reading Harry's mind and discovering Snapes betrayal.

I was totally convinced of Snapes evil before, but I may be coming around to him being a good guy. Which is stupid because I really want him to have betrayed Dumbledore, as I said before I thought it was such a great scene.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
I think there may be many reasons Dumbledore didn't tell Harry exactly why he trusts Snape -- most importantly because evidence that convinced Dumbledore very well might not convince Harry. Or, more likely, Harry might use it against Snape. What if Snape has sworn an Unbreakable Vow to Dumbledore, or been verified by some other magical means? Even if Harry were convinced that Snape is on The Side of Good and Righteousness, he'd still hate and resent him.

And under stress, in a classroom situation, Harry would use what he knew, and there goes Snape's cover. And dignity as well. Dumbledore wouldn't risk that.




My 11-year-old just finished the book (I think she read it almost as fast as I did!) and despite my explanation of why I think Snape is on the right side, thinks he is evil. When I pointed out that this would mean Dumbledore had been very wrong, and trusted him wrongly, she declared, "That's Dumbledore's problem!"
 

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Posted by Vid (Member # 7172) on :
 
Here is my full defense of my Harry-is-a-Horcrux theory:

First, we learn from Slughorn that a person's soul splinters every time they murder someone, so V's soul was freshly splintered when he came upon Harry.

Second, Dumbledore theorized that V was going to use Harry's death to make his last Horcrux. Since we don't know how Horcruxes are made, the entire enchantment(or "process" as Dumbledore puts it) could take place before the murder is committed, and then the bit o' soul is then bound to the object.

Therefore, if V's got freshly splintered soul pieces and a complete Horcrux-making process, but never bound it to anything, I could see the soul binding to the object of the killing curse, since the object of the killing curse didn't die.

Also, Harry was seeing things that were happening to Voldemort, such as watching the Muggle get killed, and watching Arthur Weasley get attacked. It's Mr. Weasley's attack that makes me most curious: it wasn't just a link between Harry and V, but a link between Harry and Nagini(who I believe is also a Horcrux); based off the... primal thoughts Harry shared with Nagini as the snake attacked Mr. Weasley, I don't think Voldemort was possessing him - meaning it was a connection that they shouldn't have had... unless maybe they both held pieces of V's soul.

Finally, someone mentioned what the prophecy says, which I hadn't honestly thought about, and it's a very good point. However, as JKR said in the most recent interview, the prophecy only comes true because Harry and Voldemort choose to carry it out. They could make the prophecy moot by shaking hands and having a butterbeer and a laugh. Another reason Harry doesn't necessarily have to die: his scar could be the Horcrux, and there could be a way to purge Harry of his scar. That or a dementor could start to kiss Harry and pull out the Voldemort-soul before the Harry-soul, then get patronused away.

I don't necessarily believe in my specific examples of Harry surviving despite being a Horcrux, but they're more to say that I believe it's possible for it to happen. Plus, the spell or whatever to remove a Horcrux could be non-fatal. No person's ever been a Horcrux, so you never know.
 

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Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
 
If nothing else, it might be interesting if Harry thought he may be a Horcrux... even if he weren't.
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
Yeah, it'd certainly fit with Harry to stake everything on an unproven and wrong theory.

(Although come to think of it, I wonder what his batting average is on his theories?)
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
You know, I've always thought that it would be cool if Harry used his knowledge of the muggle world to his advantage in defeating Voldemort. Voldemort is contemptuous of muggles, and by extension of non-magical technology in general, right? So all of his defenses are likely going to be against magical attacks. Harry and Hermione, with a deep understanding of the muggle world, could likely come up with some interesting and probably deadly combinations of conventional and magical technology. That won't happen, of course--that isn't the kind of book that Rowling is writing--but it would be an interesting read if it were.
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
Sort of a happier version of Wizards?
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
"I'm glad you changed your name, you son-of-a-b&^%!"
 

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Posted by Vid (Member # 7172) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Noemon:
You know, I've always thought that it would be cool if Harry used his knowledge of the muggle world to his advantage in defeating Voldemort. Voldemort is contemptuous of muggles, and by extension of non-magical technology in general, right? So all of his defenses are likely going to be against magical attacks. Harry and Hermione, with a deep understanding of the muggle world, could likely come up with some interesting and probably deadly combinations of conventional and magical technology. That won't happen, of course--that isn't the kind of book that Rowling is writing--but it would be an interesting read if it were.

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Hehe... we get to the end of book 7 and in the big final battle, as Hermione distracts Voldemort, Harry pulls out a shotgun and puts a hole through his chest.
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
No, Mr. Weasley pulls out the shotgun.
 

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Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
 
He would love to, I'm sure.

One does have to wonder if many wizards know what guns are and what they look like. But I'm betting that Voldemort, having lived as a Muggle for an extended period of time, could ifgure it out.
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
Ok, sorry for the sudden change of subject, but this thought just occurred to me and I wanted to ask you:

JK insinuated that by a close reading of Chamber of Secrets, we could become aware of who the Half Blood Prince is. Didn't she?

She also referred to all the info we could have if we read Chamber of Secrets more closely. I'm assuming that she's referring to the Horcrux thing, but I'm still not seeing where we could have been tipped off about any of what she was intending. Can you guys remember anything from that book that gives anything away that we eventually learned in HBP?
 

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Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
 
It's time to put this "Harry is a Horcrux" theory to rest. I went back and looked at the Horcrux chapter, and there is just no reason to believe that this theory is valid.

First, you have Slughorn telling Tom, "Killing rips the soul apart. The wizard intent upon creating a Horcrux would use the damage to his advantage: He would encase the torn portion." Clearly, then, killing is necessary to rip the soul apart.

Now, we know where several pieces of soul are, and DD guessed about the rest: 1) Voldemort's current body; 2) The Locket; 3) The Ring (destroyed); 4) The Diary (destroyed); 5) The Hufflepuff Cup; 6) Probably Nagini; and 7) Probably something of Ravenclaw's or Gryffindor's. This is all straight out of Dumbledore's mouth.

Further, there is evidence which directly suggests Voldemort failed when trying to create a Horcrux from Harry's death and, instead, eventually used Nagini. Harry: "You can use animals to make Horcruxes?" DD: "Well, it is inadvisable to do so...However, if my calculations are correct, Voldemort was still at least one Horcrux short of his goal of six when he entered your parents' house with the intention of killing you.
"He seems to have reserved the process of making Horcruxes for particularly significant deaths. You would certainly have been that. He believed that in killing you, he was destroying the danger the prophecy had outlined. He believed he was making himself invincible. I am sure that he was intending to make his final Horcrux with your death.
"As we know, he failed." Dumbledore then goes on to describe how Voldemort likely used Nagini as the last Horcrux.

Since Voldemort gave Lily a chance to survive, he was not going to use her to create a Horcrux, but was going to use Harry. When he failed to kill Harry, he failed to make a Horcrux. Therefore, Harry cannot be a Horcrux.

EDIT: I realized that when Voldemort died, the Horcrux let him come back to life, but the Horcrux still remained afterwards, it wasn't like, consumed or anything. So there are always seven, until one is destroyed.

[ July 25, 2005, 12:14 AM: Message edited by: BryanP ]
 

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Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
 
Isn't there a possibility that Dumbledore is wrong?

Also, the delicious potential irony is this: Voldemort intended to use Harry's death to make the Horcrux. But the spell rebounded, and the corresponding death was... himself. That'd be funky, wouldn't it?

...if you can consider what happened to him dying.

The thing that convinced me was the chat Dumbledore has with him in book 2. It just sounds exactly like a Horcrux.
 

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Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
 
But, ah, how could Voldemort have made the Horcrux if he died?
 

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Posted by Jill (Member # 3376) on :
 
I believe Harry's batting average is about one out of six. In fact, I think book six was the first time he'd ever been right-- Book One he thought Snape was trying to steal the Stone, Book Two he thought Malfoy was the Heir of Slytherin, Book Three he thought Sirius was after him, Book Four he certainly didn't think Mad-Eye was really Barty Crouch Jr and Book Five he thought Sirius was really in trouble. All in all, he usually isn't very correct in his guesses...

And about the Harry-is-a-Horcrux theory, a Horcrux could have been made from Lily or James' deaths.

Oh, and Promethius-- JK Rowling has said that neither Harry nor Ron will come back to Hogwarts to teach, though one of Harry's classmates will (she said it won't be the obvious choice though, so I'm guessing it won't be Hermione).

[ July 25, 2005, 01:01 AM: Message edited by: Jill ]
 

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Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
 
Well, I wouldn't say that. He's had some pretty good guesses here and there, but they are all minor things. He takes a lot of good guesswork on minor things - often in tandem with Ron and Hermy - and then jumps to the wrong conclusion.

I mean, in book one, they did a lot of great detective work, for 11 year olds, to figure out that the sorcerer's stone was in the basement at all, and that someone was after it. The fact that they picked the person with obvious physical evidence of having to get past the dog, rather than the person who was pretty darn unassuming throughout, does not seem so far fetched.

Personally, I think Harry got a hold of Jo's manuscript on this one, so he knew what she was planning.


 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Yeah, what threw me is that Harry is usually *so* wrong in his assumptions about what's going on. I wasn't expecting him to actually be right about anything.
 

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Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
 
On Snape being asked by Dumbledore to kill him:

"'DON'T --' screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them--'CALL ME COWARD!'" (pg 604)

Not, I think, the behavior of a man who has just taken part in a major victory for his side. Snape would have been condescending, would have mocked Harry for failing to stop him, would have gloated that the end of all Harry cared about was near now that Dumbledore was dead. Instead, he becomes enraged that Harry should think him a coward.

Exactly the sort of rage and indignation you would expect from a man who made a horrible sacrifice (in some ways, worse than what Dumbledore endured). Exactly the treatment you would expect from a person who hates Harry personally but realizes how vital he is to the cause of good. Exactly what a man who had just killed someone he loved in order that others might live would do.

I don't think Snape is Good. He's a flawed human with a pretty nasty streak. But I do believe that he is on the side of Good, and is horribly tormented by some of the evil things he has done.
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
There isn't enough talk of how a Horcrux is made, in the sense of what a Horcrux can be made out of, to figure out if Harry could be one. I don't think he is, after all, if he could have made a living being into a Horcrux, my guess is he would have done it, but then, as his ultimate fear is death, you'd think he'd be a little more afraid of using a fragile human body to entomb a piece of his soul in don't you think?
 

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Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
 
I suspect that the only way Harry is a Horcrux is if it was unintentional. In which case, there may well be eight pieces of Voldemort's soul to account for.

By the way, does the soul tear in half every time a Horcrux is made? Does that mean that the diary had half Voldemort's soul, while the next one had a fourth, and so on? So that the soul currently in Voldemort's body is not 1/7, but 1/128 of a soul? If killing tears a soul any time it is done, why does Voldemort need to kill to make a Horcrux? Why not rip out piece #47 of his soul, that was split off when Voldemort killed Red-robe #12 before he got any lines?
 

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Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
 
Dumbledore had to drink ALL the horcrux juice. It was a calculated dosage.

If the horcux juice was impenetrable while in the basin, then it was also impenetrable while inside Dumbledore. The delay tactic on the astronomy tower gave the juice a chance to fully work its way through the wizard's system. Dumbledore was thrown off the tower because the curse rebounded so violently from his juice-infused body.

After the crowd at the base of the tower disperses, we never see the body again.

It was all an act to get Snape close to He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, and to save Draco from doing something unforgivable.

Whoever stole the real horcrux from the cave must have had a refill of horcux juice on hand to setup the fake horcrux. Either that or they vomited the juice back into the basin.

The whole horcrux excursion was setup by Dumbledore to make sure Harry witnessed the "murder." But Harry is the only one who knows about the impenetrable quality of the juice. He will figure it out much later, giving Snape a chance to get in position, but also allowing Harry to trust Snape when it comes down to the final showdown with Voldy.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Shigosei, I was wondering that too! Well, more the 1/128 than the rest of it . . .

Except maybe there is a time limit, after which the soul repairs itself? But if the soul IS halved each time, then that does imply that Voldemort currently possesses 1/2*1/2*1/2*1/2*1/2*1/2 of a soul = 1/64?
 

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Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
 
Oh, yeah, he only divided his soul 6 times, so 1/64. Perhaps it is like the binary fission of bacteria: grow, and split, grow and split, grow and split. Although there's a pretty strong implication that this is very bad for the soul, while reproducing is probably good for the bacteria.

Skillery, a rebounding killing curse would have put Snape (and everyone else on the tower) in danger of what happened to Voldemort when he tried to kill baby Harry. I think Dumbledore would prefer to die. Plus, I'm not sure that having a protective potion running through his circulatory system would have been enough to prevent the curse from hitting and killing other tissues.

What *does* the avada kedavra curse do to the body, anyway? The book says it doesn't leave visible marks. Would anything show up on an autopsy?
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
No
it wouldn't.
Note the first chapter in Book 4 when it said that the Riddles were healthy except for the fact that they were dead.
 

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Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
 
Okay, then, so maybe it does something to the soul. Or some other magical explanation that doesn't have to do with causing a heart attack, or whatever.

Sorry for all the multiple posts, but I keep thinking of things.

It's interesting that Dumbledore chose to have his little (and extremely hi-larious) chat with the Dursleys now. Maybe it's just because Harry was going to come of age the following year, but perhaps he could have gone to talk to them then. It almost seems like Dumbledore knew he was going to die, and wanted to chastise the Dursleys and ask them for one last favor, before he was gone.
 

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Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
 
Harry's assio horcrux spell didn't work through the juice in the basin. Snape's give-up-the-ghost spell might not have worked through the juice either.

Anyway, JKR has left a big enough loophole for Snape's redemption and Dumbledore's return.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
Shigosei, I noticed that on my last re-read, too. (I'm currently on 6.)

Every time I read some of this thread, I have to go back and read the book again.

Let me just say, I would advise some of you to do the same. *tries to be polite at 1:45 in the morning*
 

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Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
 
Remember that in order for Voldemort to get a body at the end of GoF, he had to use Harry and Harry's blood in some ritual with a cauldron, right? (I've only read the books once so I may misremember this stuff.)

If Harry was ever a Horcrux (which is at least plausible), surely Voldemort got his bit of soul back then, didn't he? I mean, since that time has Harry had any more of those experiences from Nagini's or from Voldemort's point of view? I forget the order of events, exactly, but I don't think he has. Experts please correct me.

Also, we know Harry's blood is specially valuable, or that Dumbledore thought so. Would it be true that it's the means by which Voldemort can be killed?

[ July 25, 2005, 04:11 AM: Message edited by: Tatiana ]
 

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Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Shigosei:
Oh, yeah, he only divided his soul 6 times, so 1/64. Perhaps it is like the binary fission of bacteria: grow, and split, grow and split, grow and split. Although there's a pretty strong implication that this is very bad for the soul, while reproducing is probably good for the bacteria.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Shigosei:
I suspect that the only way Harry is a Horcrux is if it was unintentional. In which case, there may well be eight pieces of Voldemort's soul to account for.

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It was definitely unintentional, I agree.

I had thought about Harry being an 8th part, but since we don't know if Voldemort ever got ahold of a Ravenclaw/Gryffindor item.

Food for thought: who else do you think was in Godric's Hollow the night Harry's parents were murdered?
 

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Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
 
I think Peter Pettigrew would have been there - wasn't he the Potters' secret keeper? He may have needed to lead Voldy there, or to reveal the place.
 

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Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
 
*snicker* Horcrux juice. Can we copyright that term? Because it's hilarious.

Sorry, nothing important to add before class. Will think on stuff during class, though
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
I feel the same way, Noemon-perhaps it's because I am a Muggle that I want them to have a better showing of things.
 

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Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
 
If RAB found one horcrux, chances are that RAB found more than one. Now we have to rummage through Kreacher's collection and retrace Mundungus' peddling expeditions. One thing's for sure, we're not done with either of those charachters.
 

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Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
 
I'd just like to point out that I correctly predicted that Dumbledore would die in book 6 after reading book 4! (The mentor has to be taken out of the picture in order for Harry to get a chance to do things himself...)

Now...

IMPORTANT QUESTIONS:

1. Why did Dumbledore give Snape the Dark Arts job this year? Since we now know Dumbledore knew the job was cursed, it suggests the possibility that the REAL reason he would not give that job to Snape is that he knew Snape would be gone after one year - Dumbledore didn't want to risk Snape. Furthermore, if he knew the job was cursed, in giving the job to him THIS year it means Dumbledore must have known Snape would be leaving it after this year. To me, this suggests Dumbledore was planning in advance for Snape's departure - why? Is it possible the two of them had planned his return to the Death Eaters in advance... maybe even preplanned how Snape would kill Dumbledore?

2. Why did Voldemort come to Dumbledore and ask for the Dark Arts job at the school? This question was asked by Dumbledore, but never answered. I bet the answer is important... it might reveal something critical about Voldemort's motivations, or even what he intended to do for his final Horcrux.

3. Why doesn't Voldemort let his Death Eaters kill Harry? If they simply killed Harry then that would save Voldemort from the prophecy, right? Thus, he must have some important reason not to let anybody but himself kill Harry... like because he STILL intends to use Harry to create his final Horcrux, or because Harry IS a horcrux (and thus killing Harry would destroy part of Voldemort's soul.)
 

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Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
 
2 - My money says he came to search for a relic of either Ravenclaw or Gryffindor, therefore completing his collection.

3 - Bellatrix Lestrange sure tried to kill him after he told her he lost the prophecy, if I remember correctly. I bolt of green light flies by and takes off part of the statues. If Harry's a Horcrux, neither side knows it - although Dumbledore occasionally says things that are very close to admitting it. It's very, very confusing. The more I think about things, the less I know.
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
Ok.

1. I think you're close to being right about that. But, I don't think they had planned Dumbledore's death until after Snape made the unbreakable vow. I think that they planned to give Snape the job once Voldemort came back so he could help teach (because he really was teaching useful stuff) and so he could then leave because of the curse. They definitely planned for him to go back to the Death Eaters.

2. Dumbledore said that Voldemort wanted a chance to gather an army around him. If he'd been in that job he'd have turned many young wizards to 'the dark side' just by being their teacher. It would've been bad. He also wanted the other artifacts, but I think that was secondary.

3. I don't think that Voldemort knew that Harry would be involved in that last scene. He expected Draco to kill Dumbledore (for which Snape might actually get a tongue-lashing) and get out of there. The Death Eaters weren't even supposed to be there, but it seemed as if they answered to Snape while he was around. It's as if Snape was 'presiding' and they treated him as a death eater with authority. it was Snape that said to them "Leave him, he belongs to the Dark Lord" when the death eaters went to kill Harry, thereby saving his life (again). I imagine that Voldemort might think that was annoying, but still be flattered by Snape's apparent consideration for his pride and feelings.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
One thing that I thought was pretty clear was that Snape did NOT know what Malfoy's assignment was when he took the vow. So if he's good, he intended to die rather than kill Harry if that's what the assignment had turned out to be.

He's either VERY willing to sacrifice himself to defeat Voldemort or VERY evil. There's little middle ground on that.
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
I agree Dag. And don't you think, if he was VERY evil...that Dumbledore would've known?

Yeah. Me too.

The very fact that Rowling named an entire book for Snape (HBP) means that he's an important character. He made the ultimate mistake in betraying Harry's parents by telling Voldemort about the prophecy, setting this whole thing in motion. I feel like he'll be instrumental in ending it too. His would be a great story of redemption, don't you think?
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
As to the splitting of souls, there's nothing to indicate that the soul is necessarily split in half each time. It seems to me that when making a horcrux, you have to have prepared before the act of murder. Voldemort planned on committing these murders, and planned on splitting his soul. Who's to say that he didn't take 1/7 of his soul each time, starting from the first?

I'd guess that the Avada Kedavra curse tears the soul from a body, leaving the body dead. The fact that we now know that the soul of the caster is also torn, but not necessarily torn from the body, kind of gets back to the idea of the unforgivable curses. You have to be willing to rend your soul each time you cast the killing curse. Souls of people like Bellatrix become increasingly fractured, but all the pieces remain with her. Hence she becomes increasingly deranged.

It would be interesting to consider the possibility that the damage done to the soul of a caster of an unforgivable curse might be tied to the soul of their victim. This seems to have happened between Voldemort and Harry. Perhaps Neville's parents sanity could be extracted from between the cracks in Bellatrix's soul.

While I'm speculating, perhaps the horcrux Voldemort had prepared for Harry's death was filled with Lily's soul instead. That would fullfill Harry's need to be with his family, which has certainly been a theme throughout the books.
 

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Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
 
While the degree of the split in the soul might seem interesting, it is obvious that the souls retain a link one to the others so that the whole soul network would tend to equalize. That is to say even if a smaller piece is broken off, its connection to the others would cause them all to revert to the same size.

I suspect that the plan to die was set up before Snape took the vow, simply for the total lack of hesitation on the part of Snape in taking it.

As for the thing with Harry and Dumbledore at the end, the whole mission stunk of set-up. What are all of Dumbledores names? I seem to remember a very long list, are any of them RAB in sequence?

I am sure we can all guess that the potion was like the mind juice from the pensive, in that the horrific acts of Voldemort, perhaps all the murders that made the Horcruxes were recorded. Maybe with this information Dumbledore will be able to do some good.

Consider: Who has more unfinished business that Dumbledore? A ghost of Dumbledore would be a perfect guide for Harry to complete his quest, with Dumbledore holding vital clues in the form of Voldemort's own experiences. Perhaps the plan was very simply for Dumbledore to die while the information was still retained?

As for the Harry as a Horcrux theory, that seems like a stretch, obviously there is nothing random about the creation of such a thing, it must require ritual and preparation. It is clear that Voldemort did not have time for any such ritual after being obliterated.

Girding up his loins for battle though seems a possibility, let us consider... We know Voldemort would want to reconstruct his horcrux net, Harry could tempt Voldemort into battle with the opportunity to murder Harry, splitting his soul again and obtaining the Sword of Griffindor! Harry, Ron and Hermoine steal the sword as bait, Harry uses it in a few confrontations with Death Eaters that escape to tell the Dark Lord what they faced and the hunter becomes hunted!

After all the Sword bested the Book in CoS! Harry can steal the sword, issolate himself to train with the Order, perhaps in the Black House, perhaps in his father's house or maybe in Krum's Castle. He preps the battle field, potions, enchantments and allies to shread the assault force of the Dark Side and weaken Voldemort, then they fight as more or less equals, neither using their wands but instead using enchanted blades!

Snape of course changes sides at the last fight and Draco flees, because true loyalty is only bought with love, not fear, so ultimately Voldemort stands alone out of desertion and failure while Harry faces what he must out of love!

BC
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
I predict that early on in the 7th book, Harry survives a direct confrontation with Voldemort, a confrontation in which clearly Voldemort is far stronger. This will shore up Harry's confidence and give him some clue as to how Harry can overcome him for good.

But one of Harry's friends might die in that confrontation.
 

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Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
 
We can get Sirius back in the next book by pushing one of Draco's transporter cabinets through that veil thing in the Department of Mysteries.
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
That would be AWESOME!
 

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Posted by Promethius (Member # 2468) on :
 
is the veil ever really explained? is it another dimension? instant death? The thing confuses me
 

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Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
 
Couldn't voices be heard through the veil?
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
The veil made perfect sense to me.

But then, I'm Mormon...
 

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Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
 
Hmm, nobody responded to my theory that if Harry was ever a horcrux then Voldemort got his piece of soul back from Harry in the ritual involving Harry's blood at the end of GoF. Is that because it's very obviously untrue? Harry's scar hasn't bothered him since then, has it? And he hasn't had those weird visions from Nagini's or from Voldemort's point of view? Since I've only read the books once each, it's quite possible I've remembered all wrong, but there's something very important still about Harry's blood. Maybe it's the only way Voldemort can be killed, somehow?

Am I way off the mark, or is this at all plausible?
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Actually Tatiana, it was throughout book 5 that Harry was having the Voldemort-flashes.
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
Harry's scar bothered him tremendously after that ritual...all through book 5.

I don't buy the Harry as Horcrux theme just because I'm into the idea that they're objects that mean a lot to Voldemort. Plus, that brings up a whole lot of implications of Harry kicking the bucket in book Seven to get rid of a horcrux, and THEN how would he fulfil the prophecy?
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
"While I'm speculating, perhaps the horcrux Voldemort had prepared for Harry's death was filled with Lily's soul instead. That would fullfill Harry's need to be with his family, which has certainly been a theme throughout the books."

That is an interesting theory. But all of this "so and so is a Horcrux" stuff is being made without any real knowledge of what it takes to actually make a Horcrux. We don't know if the Horcrux is an open vessel that any diverged soul can fly into, which would make the Lily theory possible, or even James. But if the soul needs to be guided by the human hand into the vessel, or if it is created as the process unfolds, then none of these are possible, as Voldemort would never have done it on purpose.
 

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Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
 
Thanks, Narnia and rivka! I figured I had it backwards or something. I wonder why Harry's scar has quit bothering him lately? Maybe just that Voldemort now realizes the connection is there and he has taken steps to block his mind from Harry, by occlumancy.
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
"But all of this "so and so is a Horcrux" stuff is being made without any real knowledge of what it takes to actually make a Horcrux"

Rowling has to write it that way. There's really nothing more to it.

I'm happy making wide-of-the-beam speculations, because we aren't going to know any answers for about 3 years anyway, and it's interesting to consider the ramifications of different possibilities.
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
Tatiana, Harry's scar isn't bothering him in book 6 because Voldemort is using occulemency to keep Harry out of his mind. (He didn't realize that Harry had a front row seat to all of his plans and evil plotting during books 1-5.)
 

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Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
 
Prediction: Neville is going to kill Voldemort.
 

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Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
 

quote:

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I predict that early on in the 7th book, Harry survives a direct confrontation with Voldemort, a confrontation in which clearly Voldemort is far stronger. This will shore up Harry's confidence and give him some clue as to how Harry can overcome him for good.

But one of Harry's friends might die in that confrontation.

---

I would agree. And to expand on it, Ron will be kill but, through the encounter, Draco will be saved and reluctantly join up with Potter and co. Much bitterness and hilarity will ensue.
 

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Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
 
I'm betting the whole of the trio survives 7.....unless she really wants to piss people off.
 

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Posted by Hmm216 (Member # 8403) on :
 
I recently read somewhere that in an interview with Rowling she was asked how the Order communicates...her answer was (now dont quote me this may not have been an accurate statement) through their Patronuses...I know Dumbledore's Patronus is a Pheonix and at his funeral Harry though he saw a Pheonix come out of the smoke from the flames...could this have possibly been Dumbledores Patronus???

I believe that Dumbledore is truely dead...and that Harry needs to finnish the journey on his own...but I wonder if DD was communicating from the "other side."

I know its out there and It is a far fetched theory...but it is just a thought...

Any comments???
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
The comment about Dumbledore communicating throug his portrait on the wall made me happy...

But I don't think any of the other head masters was brutally murdered with an unforgiveable curse...do you think that ruins Dumbledore's chances of getting a portrait in the office??
 

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Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Hmm216:
I recently read somewhere that in an interview with Rowling she was asked how the Order communicates...her answer was (now dont quote me this may not have been an accurate statement) through their Patronuses...I know Dumbledore's Patronus is a Pheonix and at his funeral Harry though he saw a Pheonix come out of the smoke from the flames...could this have possibly been Dumbledores Patronus???

I believe that Dumbledore is truely dead...and that Harry needs to finnish the journey on his own...but I wonder if DD was communicating from the "other side."

I know its out there and It is a far fetched theory...but it is just a thought...

Any comments???

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quote:

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What are all of Dumbledores names?

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quote:

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But I don't think any of the other head masters was brutally murdered with an unforgiveable curse...do you think that ruins Dumbledore's chances of getting a portrait in the office??

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He already got a portrait. He was sleeping in it when McGonagall was talking to everyone in the office.

I think that Wormtail is gonna save Harry and repay his life-debt by killing that new Werewolf dude Fenrir Greyback. The really creepy one who likes to kill kids.

I used to think that he was gonna kill Lupin because of the whole silver hand foreshadowing, but that wouldn't fit in with his debt. Killing Fenrir seems much more likely now that he has been introduced.
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
Rowling has said that the portrait is just that: A portrait. The fact that portraits can and do talk in the wizarding world doesn't give them useful information, or wisdom. Essentially they just parrot stereotypical phrases or platitudes that the subject of the portrait is likely to have said. Hence Sirius' mother's portrait only screams racist blather. In real life, she would have been more rounded and engaged in more useful discussion, even if she was bigoted.
 

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Posted by solo (Member # 3148) on :
 
The portraits of the other Headmasters seem to be able to do more than just parrot phrases. They are far from the complete person, but I think they are more than you seem to. They do seem to contain at least some memories that the person had in life as evidenced by Phinneas Nigelus (sp.) and his discussions regarding Sirius and the Black family.
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
Yeah, Nigelus seemed to be interacting on far more than just a basic level.
 

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Posted by His Savageness (Member # 7428) on :
 
I got the impression from the portraits that they were essentially "memory dumps." They could interact on a fairly deep level but couldn't really learn or grow as a real living creature would. They kind of remind of the heads in Wyrms.
 

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Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
 
I think that's the fifth OSC reference in this thread! *thumbsup*
 

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Posted by Miro (Member # 1178) on :
 
Not exactly surprising, considering where we are.
 

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Posted by akhockey (Member # 8394) on :
 
I honestly don't see how Harry, or any part of Harry, could be a Horcrux. When you look at the process, you have the killing, which splits the soul (Every killing does this, not just killings to be used for the Horcrux), and then you have an incantation which channels the portion of the soul into the Horcrux. Based off of that, it seems virtually impossible that, in the aftermath of the backfired AK, LV still had the presence of mind to transfer portions of his soul from the James/Lily murders to Harry. Not only that, but why do it? He's going to try to kill Harry eventually, so why put portions of his soul there also?

Also, I don't think that Voldemort used one of his prior Horcruxes to resurrect himself after the AK backfired. That also wouldn't make sense, because then it wouldn't be "immortality" any more than a cat's 9 lives would be. I think that, since his souls are split amongst other objects, it makes the killing of the soul residing in his body impossible as long as those objects are around. That's why he's so pumped up about it. So when the AK backfired, it destroyed his body, but his soul, in addition to the other 5 (and soon to be 6, after Nagini in GOF) survived fully.

That's why it's considered "immortality", because you can kill his body as many times as you want and he'll survive. Thus, Harry must first destroy the remaining four Horcruxes before LV is vulnerable to a mortal death.

So, even though JKR does sometimes mislead us or drop clues...I think her summation of the Horcruxes for book 7 at the end were just to kind of make it clear to us what Harry's going to be doing in the next book. She said in an interview "I think most readers should be able to figure out what Harry will be doing in the next book." It just seems like it wouldn't make sense for her to emphasize what is essentially just plot points for the next book if they weren't true.
 

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Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
 
Not necessarily. I mean, Voldemort waited ten years between his death and rebirth before he had a body and was really able to have an effect on the world. Theoretically, Voldemort can be killed, and *then* Harry could destroy the horcruxes before someone fixes the flesh, blood, and bone potion to restore him again.
 

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Posted by akhockey (Member # 8394) on :
 
When I say killed, I guess I mean more of...eradicated? I was trying to say that, in the sense of Voldemort no longer existing in any form, then he is killed. It just seems like a weird way to go about things...kind of anti-climatic? But yeah, that is a possible way to do it...he'd then have to vanquish the remaining soul-piece that's floating around though...
 

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Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
 
Not that I think it'll happen that way (you're right about it being anticlimactic), but I'm just sayin', it might be possible.

It might mean that Harry might miss one somewhere, and even if he vanquishes Voldemort, he'll spend the rest of his life alone, searching for the last horcrux so as to prevent his third rise.
 

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Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
 
I predict that the student who comes back to teach at Hogwarts is Neville. He'll teach Herbology (or whatever that plant class is called), and be a great teacher, after a bit of practice to get his confidence up.
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
I totally agree with you. Neville is soon becoming teh man.
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
Why shouldn't he piss him off?
 

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Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
 
If there's one thing Harry is good at, it's pissing Voldie off.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
I agree with Jhai and Narnia.

Maybe he'll even come up with a hybrid that can help his parents . . .
 

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Posted by CT (Member # 8342) on :
 
My take on things:

1) Snape is on the side of good, although he is a flawed human being (i.e., I agree with Shigosei).

2) Dumbledore really is dead, although he will encore in the mirror.

3) Dumbledore and Snape set up DD's killing by Snape for all the aforementioned reasons in this thread.

4) And here is where it gets interesting (aka wacky): Snape and James Potter had exchanged souls. Snape is really James Potter. This is why he was so freaked out by Harry seeing Snape's memories (shame of how he -- as James -- acted), why he can be trusted to protect Harry (his son), and why he loathes and resents any sign of arrogance in Harry (sees himself in his son).

I'm sticking with it until I read Book 7 and am convinced otherwise.
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
4)But if that was the case, wouldn't Snape be a lot kinder to Harry? Or to anyone else, after all, he did grow up to be a more mature person who wouldn't act as terrible as Snape does.
Plus he'd be agonized about losing Lily.
 

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Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
 
Harry!!! I am your father!!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
Aw, Bryan, you have to do the whole thing.

VD - "Dumbledore never told you who your father was did he Harry?"

HP - "He told me enough, he told me you killed him."

VD - "No. I, am your father."

Ironically, VD and Vader, and DD and Obiwan share a lot of the same characteristics. Yet another sign that Campbell's monomyth and character archetypes rule all. Damn you Campbell. Damn you.
 

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Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Synesthesia:
4)But if that was the case, wouldn't Snape be a lot kinder to Harry? Or to anyone else, after all, he did grow up to be a more mature person who wouldn't act as terrible as Snape does.
Plus he'd be agonized about losing Lily.

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quote:

---

4)But if that was the case, wouldn't Snape be a lot kinder to Harry? Or to anyone else, after all, he did grow up to be a more mature person who wouldn't act as terrible as Snape does.
Plus he'd be agonized about losing Lily.

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I think the mature person James grew up into was actually him after Snapification.
 

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Posted by SC Carver (Member # 8173) on :
 
I haven't read this entire thread but I really like a lot of the theories here. It looks like most things point to Snape being on the good side, mainly because we all want to think DD didn't waste his death.

My only question that I haven't seen covered was the first chapter with the Prime Minister. Was that just a jab at Bush and Blair or will it come back into play? It seemed to have nothing to do with the storyline.
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
She's been wanting to put that in since Chamber of Secrets.
It was good for introducing the new Ministry of Magic and showing just how condesending and incompetend the Ministry is.
 

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Posted by CT (Member # 8342) on :
 
Further clarification:

I think Rowling is telling two separate (but related) stories at the same time. The first story is the straight-read, where Snape seems evil, but nothing really makes sense when you try to pin it down. Why does Dumbledore trust him? What is Dumbledore not telling Harry, and why? Will Snape really turn out to be evil after all? It's a great strategy for keeping people hooked and guessing until the end. It provides great cliffhangers and generates a lot of discussion.

But I think we're building up to a big denouement in Book 7. Suddenly, all will be made clear. The scales will fall from our eyes. There will be a big Aha! moment, and then an Oooooohhhhh! as we resort the whole story and all our preconceptions about it.

And then we read the second story, the one where we reread all the books, again, but now with those scales lifted from our eyes. And instead of the story of Snape and Harry (dark, confusing, frustrating, puzzling), we read the story of James and Harry (dark, painful, aching, gut-wrenching). I think that's what Rowling is aiming for.

And so, for example, instead of "Snape" being ashamed of how he was humiliated by James, we see James' self-loathing and hatred of how twisted he was for enjoying the humiliation he wreaks on another. He didn't want his son to see him like that, not his son who admired and respected him.

C'mon. What really shook Harry about that memory? He didn't care about Snape. He was aghast at seeing this side of his father. That wrecked his security, his identity. It made him question himself, too, as he identified with his father. He was appalled at what he saw James do, but he couldn't have cared less about what happened to Snape in contrast.

Don't you think Snape would have known that? Here we have a grown man, supposedly at the height of his wizarding powers, in charge of a Hogwarts house, and he's reduced to shuddering angry tears at the fact that this student saw him being embarrassed back when he, himself, was still a young boy. If he really hated Harry, wouldn't he have known that the real power play was to draw himself up, slowly and measuredly, then declaim in a sardonic, cutting way: "So, Harry Potter, now you've seen what your father was really like. A tormentor, a bully, and an arrogant bastard. Just like you, Potter, just like you. You'll never be any more than he was: a bully, a braggart, and a total fool."

I mean, anyone with any sense and life experience would know that freaking out over being humiliated just gives those that tease you yet more ammunition. I can't believe Snape would lose self-control enough to show Harry how much he cared about that long-ago incident, not if he had at his fingeretips the perfect means of hurting Harry where it really counts, instead.

But I would buy that he was James trying against all odds to maintain his son's good opinion of him, now aghast and ashamed beyond reason. I think he wants Harry to be a better man than he was, and he's filled with enough self-loathing to both goad Harry and refuse to forgive himself. Maybe he had even gone over to Voldemort as James, maybe not. Regardless, there's another story to read there than the obvious one, I'm sure of it.

That would also explain why so much emphasis is placed on Harry looking like James. He'sgothisfather'sfaceandhismother'seyes. It even almost becomes a joke by Book 6 -- everyone mentions it. I think that it is emphasized too much not to be a serious misleader. That's the way Rowling writes.

Just a theory, though. I'm interested to see what happens. It would be a fascinating way to get a double-bang out of the story, and it would generate interest that carried out past the mere ending of the series. More difficult to write, more intriguing, more sales (as people went back to reread), and more lasting impact on the literary world. Much, much more fun to write.

[ July 27, 2005, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: CT ]
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
I don't buy it, CT. Snape's interactions with his fellows -- including Lupin and Sirius -- don't make much sense if he's actually James.
 

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Posted by CT (Member # 8342) on :
 
I reread the series before I read Book 6, and I can make sense of those interactions. I suspect that James may have gone very dark before he turned back to the light. Or, quite possibly, only Dumbledore knows the sacrifice that James made.

We'll see. I'm very much looking forward to the last book, regardless. Her writing is definitely getting better.
 

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Posted by Hmm216 (Member # 8403) on :
 
I wonder if Voldemort could use an Imperi as a horicrux...maybe someone he killed???

any thoughts?
 

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Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
 
Nah, Rowling is such a master of backstory that she'll make sure it's something grounded in the history of the story and will make us slap ourselves on the head and shout, "Of course!" I mean, did you SEE how many boxes she had in her A&E Biography?

EDIT: Also, some ideas. Regulus is definitely dead, otherwise Harry wouldn'tve inherited 12 Grimmauld Place.

And maybe Voldemort kidnapped Ollivander to make a new wand so there's no more Priori Incantetem mumbo jumbo next time he and Harry have the ol' mexican showdown.

[ July 27, 2005, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: Book ]
 

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Posted by ? (Member # 2319) on :
 
Here's a question I just thought of.

I'm reading the whole series again. In the first book, the first time Harry sees Snape, Harry's scar really hurts him. Was it ever really explained why it hurt right then? As far as I recall the only other time Harry's scar hurts is when it's directly related to Voldemort. Why would it hurt that one other time? This might throw some doubt into my own Snape=good guy thoughts.

?
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
Maybe because Snape told Voldemort about the prophecy? That's the only real Snape/Harry/Voldemort connection we know about for sure.
 

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Posted by akhockey (Member # 8394) on :
 
I think it was another sign of LV's anger. Snape was talking to Voldemort-as-Quirrell, and then Snape looked at Harry and then Harry's scar hurt. My guess is that Snape made LV mad about whatever they were speaking of.
 

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Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
 
akhockey is correct. In fact, at that moment, Quirrel's turban was facing Harry, giving Voldemort-in-Quirrel's-head a good line of sight.
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
Harry's scar hurt whenever the back of Quirrell's head was facing him. Rowling was always careful to make sure that it was there, but described as incidental to Snape's presence. (or when he was in the forest, and we had no idea what he was really looking at)
 

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Posted by Jill (Member # 3376) on :
 
Book-- Actually, no. I thought that too when I first read it, but remember that the house passed to Harry despite the fact that it should have gone to Bellatrix? Sirius' will trumped the bloodline, so Regulus still could be alive, though I doubt it.
 

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Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
 
I'd like if you were correct CT. It's certainly fascinating.
 

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Posted by Humean316 (Member # 8175) on :
 
Ive always wondered if DD is a seer who could see the future and used this to help Harry. For instance, in SS how did DD know to come back instead of head off to London? As it pertains to book 6, did DD forsee what would happen and thus feel free to give Snape the DADA job because he knew that snape would gone anyway? This would explain alot about how the events of book 6 unfolded. Moreover, anticitpating the objection, I think that DD had to keep the fact that he was a seer a secret because it was a great tool against VD. In the end, I think DD did as much as he had to do in order to help Harry down the path. If he is a seer then he knows that all the things he has done will create a positive ending.

Also, I think that DD and Snape were arguing over the fact that Snape would kill DD because he had forseen it and Snape had decided that he didnt want to do it. Also, why did Snape instantly go up to the top of the astronomy tower when he got to the battle instead of start fighting? He didnt know that Malfoy was up there nor that DD was up there because no body told him that. The order didnt tell him and, as far as I can tell, the death eaters didnt either. He simply ran past all of them straight to the top of the tower. How did he know to go up there unless DD hold told him this would happen?

Finally, at the beginning when DD comes to retrieve Harry, he tells off the Dursleys and asks them to take Harry back one more time as if he knew he was going to die. I think thats why DD finally told off the dursleys and did what he did. For, he knew his fate and had to put harry in the best possible position!
 

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Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
 
Wouldn't the house stay within direct family lines and heirs? Bellatrix is a cousin, whereas Harry is the legal heir to a son.
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
>> And here is where it gets interesting (aka wacky): Snape and James Potter had exchanged souls. Snape is really James Potter. This is why he was so freaked out by Harry seeing Snape's memories (shame of how he -- as James -- acted), why he can be trusted to protect Harry (his son), and why he loathes and resents any sign of arrogance in Harry (sees himself in his son).

SPOILERS


Didn't Harry see his Dad's ghost when he broke Voldemort's spell at the end of Book 4?
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
Yep.
 

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Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
 
If Snape was in love with Lily (which I think would be likely), the reason he probably hates Harry is that he's the constant reminder that the only person who stuck up for Snape in his life wound up falling in love with the guy who made his school days a living hell. I mean, being that Harry is James with Lily's eyes, every time Snape looks at him he probably has visions of James and Lily making love or something. I can understand that level of hate.
 

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Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
 
Why doesn't Voldy make all his Death Eaters take an unbreakable vow of loyalty?
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
From the interview with the WMs of Mugglenet and Leaky Cauldron:

quote:

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ES: Was James the only one who had romantic feelings for Lily?

JKR: No. [Pause.] She was like Ginny, she was a popular girl.

MA: Snape?

JKR: That is a theory that's been put to me repeatedly.

ES: What about Lupin?

JKR: I can answer either one.

ES: How about both? One at a time.

JKR: I can't answer, can I, really?

ES: Can you give us any clue, without misleading us [Emerson misspoke; he meant “without giving too much away”] --?

JKR: I've never, to my knowledge, lied when posed a question about the books. To my knowledge. You can imagine, I've now been asked hundreds of questions; it's perfectly possible at some point I misspoke or I gave a misleading answer unintentionally, or I may have answered truthfully at the time and then changed my mind in a subsequent book. That makes me cagey about answering some questions in too much detail because I have to have some leeway to get there and do it my way, but never on a major plot point.

Lupin was very fond of Lily, we'll put it like that, but I wouldn't want anyone to run around thinking that he competed with James for her. She was a popular girl, and that is relevant. But I think you've seen that already. She was a bit of a catch.

MA: How did they get together? She hated James, from what we’ve seen.

JKR: Did she really? You're a woman, you know what I'm saying. [Laughter.]

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quote:

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So Ginny poured out her soul to me, and her soul happened to be exactly what I wanted... I grew stronger and stronger on a diet of her deepest fears, her darkest secrets. I grew powerful, far more powerful than little Miss Weasely. Powerful enough to start feeding Miss Weasely a few of my secrets, to start pouring a little of my soul back into her

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Didn't Harry see his Dad's ghost when he broke Voldemort's spell at the end of Book 4?

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It would make sense that he had a bit of LV in, say, the region of his scar.

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Could the scar itself be a Horocrux or a failed horocrux? Maybe LV put an object in the shape of the lightning bolt on Harry to facilitate the process - like the jewel in a phylactery - and it was consumed when the spell rebounded.
 

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Posted by ctm (Member # 6525) on :
 
Thanks for the link, solo, I'd never heard that before.
 

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Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 
HOW can Harry be a Horcrux if Voldemort was trying to KILL him!? Explain this to me! Why would Voldemort EVER try to destroy a piece of his soul? That's his whole motivation -- eternal life/existence! It would be not only ridiculously stupid but AGAINST CHARACTER for Voldemort to suddenly decide he wanted to do away with a part of himself!
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
Leonide, all the arguments that Harry is a Horocrux (which I don't believe, by the way) are based on some magical mishap, not LV's intent.
 

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Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 
From what we've read about Horcruxes (admittedly, not nearly enough info is given) it seems like it takes some serious magic mojo to make it all happen -- otherwise, anyone who killed a person in the wizarding world would be *accidentally* making horcruxes all over the place!

It seems like it would have had to have been a very deliberate, calculated decision on LV's part, not some chance magical transference.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
The theory is something like this:

LV makes a very deliberate, calculated decision to make a Horocrux and prepares something in advance to using serious magic mojo.

He then murders the person.

The preparation causes the soul fragmentation incident to the murder to be captured in the Horocrux.

If this is how Horocruxes work, then it was a very deliberate, calculated decision on LV's part, with an unprecented magical event intervening somehow.

Now, we don't know how Horocruxes work. It oculd be that the serious magic mojo happens after the murder. But there's nothing inconsistent with it coming first.
 

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Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 
So the theory is that he *was* planning on making a non-Harry horcrux, but the backfiring of the killing curse mucked that up? Plausible, but then why doesn't Voldie know that? There've been no hints that he knows Harry has 1/7th of his soul, and either LV or his minions have tried to kill Harry many, many times.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I think the Harry-as-horcrux is an entertaining theory, but I don't believe it at all. Voldemort would have to be spectacularly incompetent to accidentally make a horcrux and then continually try to destroy it. I don't like solutions that require someone to be stupid.
 

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Posted by Vid (Member # 7172) on :
 
Harry doesn't have 1/7 of V's soul. He has a splintered piece of it. And why would V try to destroy one of his own Horcruxes? Because it's housed inside his one true rival! We know from OotP that they could possess each other pretty easily, and Voldemort doesn't want Harry to become a Super-Legilimens and start reading his mind whenever he wants to. Why else would he start using Occlumency in HBP?

Speaking of OotP, how is it possible that Harry was riding along with Nagini? Voldemort wasn't controlling the snake when it attacked Arthur Weasley, otherwise while Harry was along for the ride, he would have been hearing complete, rational thoughts. That's an awefully strong bond between a kid and a snake that have only met once. Unless, of course, they belong to the "Carrying a Piece of Voldemort's Soul" club

Voldemort kills enough people to be able to make a 6th Horcrux again - or maybe Nagini was the 6th, but Voldemort found out afterwards that Harry really was a Horcrux.

Speaking of Nagini, if the snake really is a Horcrux, then it's possible for Voldemort to perform the spell when he's very weak. So it can't be an overly-taxing enchantment or anything.

Finally, in The Interview, JKR says that a careful re-reading of the books will reveal one of the Horcruxes. Because of long extra hours at work, I'll probably get through the first three books this weekend, but in my recollection and opinion, Harry's the only thing that it could be.

Complete side note: Harry needs a new wand.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 

quote:

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So the theory is that he *was* planning on making a non-Harry horcrux, but the backfiring of the killing curse mucked that up? Plausible, but then why doesn't Voldie know that? There've been no hints that he knows Harry has 1/7th of his soul, and either LV or his minions have tried to kill Harry many, many times.

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Dag, you know that in D&D a lich uses a "phylactery" to store its soul? The whole horcrux thing is straight out of D&D. I think I said it before, but Voldemort is a lich.

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Yep, your reference was what reminded me of the word.

If the item was supposed to be the horcrux, then it might have been destroyed or could still be there. If the item was only part of the ritual, it might have been some kind of conduit that temporarily connects the victim and murderer.

Either way, it could be that the LV-Harry connection is the result of a horcrux-like object, created accidentally, that has a piece of both Harry and Voldemort's soul, although we've been given no indication that Harry's humanity is suffering.

Or not.
 

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Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
 
Aaah, I think JK just slammed the Snape-James theory.

From her website:

quote:

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Did James and Lupin switch bodies before James was killed?
An ingenious theory, but no; James would never have saved himself and left his wife and son to die.

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Originally posted by Glenn Arnold:
"
I wouldn't bet that Harry is a horcrux, but I'm pretty sure the attempted horcrux-creation had something to do with it. There's something very horcrux-like about the whole Harry-has-Voldemort's-powers thing.

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This is exactly what I was getting at -- I think LV's attempt at making a Horcrux from Harry's (SIGNIFICANT) death (interrupted by Lily's sacrifice) -- has a LOT to do with the connection between the two.

To ignore the obvious connection is so illogical it's almost funny.
 

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Posted by t-lee (Member # 1326) on :
 
How did Voldemort get his wand back after the failed curse? I'm assuming he dropped it after his body "died". Who picked it up and gave it back to him? From GofF we know that no one used it between killing the Potters and killing Bertha Jorkins (or the old gardener). If he had it, how did he carry it around and why didn't he use it?
 

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Posted by akhockey (Member # 8394) on :
 
Squirmy Wormy probably picked it up, at least that's my guess. If not maybe LV has some mystical Sauron like obsession with his wand, and knows where it's at at all times. Were I him, I'd Horcrux my own wand.

Also, I can't remember if anyone ever discussed the methods to remove LV's soul from the Horcruxes. Seems to me that there is some advanced spell or incantation or some kind of magical procedure that can remove the soul without destroying the object. So technically, Harry wouldn't necessarily need to kill things would he? I mean, we're all assuming that Harry has to kill LV, which is what the prophecy implies. But if DD could extract LV soul from the Gaunt ring without destroying the ring, then couldn't Harry extract the LV soul from the Horcruxes and then use the same procedure to wrench LV's soul from his own body?

Edit: Scratch most of that second paragraph, as Harry destroyed the soul portion of the diary by detroying the diary itself...sort of...
 

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Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
 
Yeah, but that might not be the only way.
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
"Harry destroyed the soul portion of the diary by detroying the diary itself...sort of... "

Note: Harry didn't just destroy the diary. He used a powerful magical creature's fang and venom to destroy it.

"Either way, it could be that the LV-Harry connection is the result of a horcrux-like object, created accidentally, that has a piece of both Harry and Voldemort's soul, although we've been given no indication that Harry's humanity is suffering."

Dumbledore explained to Harry that even though he carries some of Voldemort's characteristics, he still has his own free will. His actions and choices are his own. Kinda gets really deep into where good and evil resides. In the soul? In the mind? Voldemort retains all his magical powers despite removing 6/7ths of his soul from his body. And he remains just as evil without the rest of his soul.

I read an interview with Rowling where someone accused Hogwarts of being un-christian, and she kind of snickered and made a veiled comment about how christian Hogwarts actually is. It could have just been a reference to the fact that Hogwarts celebrates Christmas and Easter, but it could also be that ultimately Rowling will put her own spin on Christian forgiveness. The idea that "we are all sinners, but we're all forgivable" goes along with what we know about how Rowling writes characters. All of her heroes are flawed, and sometimes downright mean. But are they evil? Maybe she intends to answer that.
 

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Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Olivet:

DD made Snape agree to kill him, because he thought it was best. Remember Hagrid overheard Snape saying he 'couldn't do it' and DD talling him he had to...

Might have had a lot to do with DD trying to save Draco

At the end, he(Snape) stops Harry from using any unforgivable curses, and doesn't hurl back any of his own. He also tells him he has to learn Occlumancy or he's useless -- basically giving him lessons while he's fleeing.

Oh, and RAB is definitely Regulus. In book five, the kids find this big locket at Grimmauld Place and nobody can open it. DUH. Regulus is dead, sure, but the locket was there. Maybe Mundungus stole it and sold it, but it WAS there.

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quote:

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I'm anticipating a James Bond/Q-like scene when they stop by George and Fred's

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This is exactly how I phrased this to my wife. Fred and George building the weapons for the good guys. I even made the James Bond/Q reference.
 

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Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
 
My reaction to Ron in this book--"Ron, don't feel embarrassed that you're sixteen and never kissed a girl!" Poor Ron.

Poor me, rather. I mean, I'm twenty and have yet to really snog anyone.
 

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Posted by Chris Kidd (Member # 2646) on :
 
Ha Ron an amature Im 29 and havent kissed a girl.


 

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Posted by Daric (Member # 8402) on :
 
The fact that they used the word snogged like 20 times in one page really irked me.
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
I'm glad they left it in the American version...it's so...British.
 

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Posted by Samarkand (Member # 8379) on :
 
Hmm, I wonder what Voldy wanted to use when he went to GODRIC's Hollow to make his final Horcrux . . . perhaps a Gryffindor object? Perhaps a sword? Is there anything lightning shaped on the sword (check CoS)? And I'm sticking with Harry as the heir of Gryffindor. Red and gold sparks shot out of his wand . . . Godric's hollow . . . nice symmetry . . . etc.
 

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Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
 
oooooh, I wonder...

I mean, who says Voldemort didn't find some non-sword Gryffindor relic? All Dumbledore says is that the sword is the only one he knows about.
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Chris Kidd:
Ha Ron an amature Im 29 and havent kissed a girl.

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quote:

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He(Ron) hasn't manifested any special powers

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I don't actually buy the "Harry is a horocrux" theory, but why are peopel assuming that Harry has to remain alive to be a horocrux?

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Also, I don't think that Voldemort used one of his prior Horcruxes to resurrect himself after the AK backfired. That also wouldn't make sense, because then it wouldn't be "immortality" any more than a cat's 9 lives would be. I think that, since his souls are split amongst other objects, it makes the killing of the soul residing in his body impossible as long as those objects are around. That's why he's so pumped up about it. So when the AK backfired, it destroyed his body, but his soul, in addition to the other 5 (and soon to be 6, after Nagini in GOF) survived fully.

That's why it's considered "immortality", because you can kill his body as many times as you want and he'll survive. Thus, Harry must first destroy the remaining four Horcruxes before LV is vulnerable to a mortal death.

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If this were true, then the dementor's kiss would kill the victim, instead of leaving it an empty shell with a horrible existance. If your soul is removed or destroyed you can still live, but you can't really think or act. You're essentially a vegetable.

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I also don't think that the soul is ripped unless you want it to be ripped. Otherwise, the Death eaters would be unstoppable, because they've all killed so mmany people, they'd have horcruxes EVERYWHERE.

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I believe that Dumbledore says explicitly that the act of murder splits a soul.

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I think Ron's special ability is his loyalty.

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quote:

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Originally posted by katharina:

quote:

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I believe that Dumbledore says explicitly that the act of murder splits a soul.

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I love these books. What a wonderful way to describe what happens to someone they do something evil.

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Okay, to go back pages and pages of posts, there was someone insisting that Ron and Hermione are already solidly a couple, because Ron told Hermione he loved her. (I'm not arguing that they aren't going to end up together, just that it doesn't seem official quite yet.) I thought maybe I had missed something at the end but after listening to the whole thing again, I found the spot. Ron tells Hermione he loves her when he spills ink on his essay and she fixes it. That's not the same kind of an I-love-you.

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Which is the whole point. It's not a gushy, dreamy eyed, homone driven, face sucking, body entwining immature kind of love. It's just a statement of fact. That comes from love, and not lust.

Just as Fleur's comment about being "pretty enough for both of them" speaks volumes about the validity of their love, Ron's simple statment is something he could never have said in his normal insecure state of denial, without suddenly realizing what he'd said and getting all embarrassed about it.

Later, Ron holds Hermione and strokes her hair to comfort her as she cries on his shoulder at Dumbledore's funeral. It's intimate physical contact, but with no sexual overtone. It's done in stark contrast to all the teenage puppy-love "snogging" that's gone before. Rowling slipped it in there for a reason.
 

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Posted by Humean316 (Member # 8175) on :
 
"Hermione been established as being remarkable book knowledge but not going beyond the book (Really, what's the big deal about following a different recipe book for making potions? "Oh you're cheating because I'm following the recipe in this book and you're following the recipe in another book that is better.") It would have been great if Ron started manifesting some outside the accepted boundaries powers, like his brothers inventiveness or something. As it is, he seems mostly there to be Harry's friend and Hermione's love interest. Anyone could play that role (throw Ginny Weasley in and you've reversed the roles, but picked up a more powerful Weasley)."

Ive always thought of Ron as the "muscle" of the group, the guy who would always go with the other two when they needed it and do what was necessary to help them. He is the support that Harry needs and the love Hermione needs. In this way, he is the glue of the group, and I dont think the group could survive without him.
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
The "soul splitting" thing refers to murder. If Dumbledore asked Snape to kill him, it wasn't murder.
 

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Posted by akhockey (Member # 8394) on :
 
So soul-splitting doesn't apply to euthanasia?
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Glenn Arnold:
The "soul splitting" thing refers to murder. If Dumbledore asked Snape to kill him, it wasn't murder.

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I'm guessing that the reason that Voldermort fulfilled the prophecy by attacking Harry instead of Neville was that Voldemort did it because of Snape

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Or Snape pointed out that the prophecy fit Harry and touted it in such a way that Voldemort never considered the Longbottoms.
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
No, he picked Harry to Kill because Harry was just like him, a half-blood in a way. Or perhaps he considered him less of a threat than full-blooded Neville.
 

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Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
 
Self-disgust seems to be a very big theme amongst Dark wizards.
 

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Posted by not hansenj (Member # 8066) on :
 
Just a side thought: the act of murder splits/rips the soul. Legally, we differentiate between murder and other kinds of killing, ex. manslaughter, self defense, war. Can Harry kill Voldemort without murdering him? Maybe, maybe not. You probably can't nonmurderously kill someone you hate that much, but I guess we'll see!
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
Odds are, with Volemort's skills against Harry's, Harry will kill Voldemort in self-defense. Totally forgiveable.
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
Dumbledore tells Harry that Snape had no way of knowing that the information he gave Voldemort would cause him to kill Harry's parents.
 

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Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
 
Something just occured to me. What, exactly, are the effects of the Avada Kedavra curse, besides death? I mean, The Riddles were found perfectly preserved at the dinner table. The spider in Moody's DADA class was the same, except with requisite green light. The spell rebounding blew up the Potter's entire house, but that was an exception. Do we ever hear of the recipient of the killing curse getting *thrown up into the air and out the nearest window*? I need to read up on how Cedric died, that could be the kink in my musing.

My point? Did Dumbledore die of a killing curse, or from a fall from the window?

I have an idea of Snape (good, evil, whatever) mustering up as much hate as he can toward Dumbledore in order to perform Avada Kedavra...and coming up woefully short. He just doesn't hate Dumbly (who would, really?*). So, in order to follow through with killing him (for good, evil, whatever) he did a leviacorpus to do the deed.

My proof? Petrified! Harry couldn't vocalize his reaction to the AK curse hitting Dumbledore in the chest.


*with one or two blindingly obvious exceptions.
 

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Posted by quiden (Member # 6982) on :
 
OK, here are my thoughts and theories after reading the book [spoilers].

I was surprised when Snape Killed Dumbledore, but I wouldn't be at all surprised that Dumbledore had ordered Snape to do so, just as he ordered Harry to leave him if he needed him to -- to save Harry. At that point in the story, Snape would have died if he hadn't killed Dumbledore because of the unbreakable vow that he had made. I believe it was Snape not wanting to that he and D were arguing about which Hagrid overheard.

My theory is that when it comes down to the final moments of the story in the final book, it'll be Harry vs. Voldemort and the Snake and Snape will be there. Snape will kill the snake, thus destroying the last horcrux leaving Voldemort vulnerable for Harry to finish the job.
 

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Posted by quiden (Member # 6982) on :
 
Another of my theories is about what the horcruxes are. We know that there are 7 pieces of Voldemort's soul:

1. himself
2. The Diary -- destroyed
3. The ring -- destroyed
4. The locket -- I believe this is destroyed by RAB
5. Hufflepuff's Goblet -- not yet found
6. The snake, Nagini -- with Voldemort
7. Unknown

In a mugglenet.com/the-leaky-cauldron.org interview, J.K. Rowling indicated that the identity of the last Horcrux can be figured out by reading the books:

"JKR: But Dumbledore has given him some pretty valuable clues and Harry, also, in the course of previous six books has amassed more knowledge than he realizes. That's all I am going to say.

"ES: It seems like it would be impossible. If Harry had gone to the cave, he never could have done it on his own, it seems like.

"JKR: Well, I'm prepared to bet you now, that at least before the week is out, at least one of the Horcruxes will have been correctly identified by careful re-readers of the books."

So, here's my weak theory about it. I'm sure others may have other ideas but since a Horcrux is made by someone murdering someone else, I believe that one was made when Moaning Myrtle was killed while Tom Riddle was attending Hogwarts. So what is the Horcrux? Well, what was one thing that Dumbledore said that Tom Riddle Cared about? Hogwarts. Could it be that the school itself is a Horcrux? I don't know, but I'm almost sure that one was made when Myrtle was killed.

What do you think?
 

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Posted by Damien.m (Member # 8462) on :
 
Riddle himself didnt kill Moaning Myrtle. The Basilsk did it on his orders. Therefore Riddle´s soul couldnt have split because he didnt actually murder her.

And i think the horcrux was the locket found in Sirius' house. R.A.B is most likely Regulus Black.
 

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Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
 
quiden -- re: Hogwarts as a horcrux -- yeah! That's one of my theories, too, I posted it somewhere in this thread. (So when book 7 comes out and if I'm right, I'm going to VERY proudly remind Hatrack folks that I was the first to predict it.)

(Of course, if I'm wrong, I won't say anything... )
 

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Posted by Damien.m (Member # 8462) on :
 
Oh and just one more thing if RAB is Regulus Black. RAB would have needed another person with him to make him drink the potion or vice versa. this person would have to not be recognised by the boat. Kreacher anyone??? Riddle wouldnt count a house elf as an equal so Kreacher wouldnt be recognised.
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
That's a good thought.
 

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Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
 
Maybe Snape could be the last Horcruxe...
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
Then why would Dumbledore want him to keep the unbreakable vow? He could still have saved Malfoy (I don't know how, but it has to be possible), and Snape dying would have destroyed a horcrux.
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
"Well, I'm prepared to bet you now, that at least before the week is out, at least one of the Horcruxes will have been correctly identified by careful re-readers of the books"

Yeah, that would be the locket at Grimmald Place. The Kreacher connection fits with that nicely.

Anyone else notice "the Grimm" hiding in "Grimmald place?" Is Serius really a Grimm? And if he is, what does he represent?
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
Dumbledore explained that a live horcrux would not be a good idea. Voldemort used Nagini because he didn't have any other options. He definitely would not have made Snape into a horcrux.

Bear in mind, the "Harry as a Horcrux" theory only works because Voldemort's Horcrux/Avada Kedavra preparations went awry when Lily put her protection on Harry. Voldemort wouldn't have made Harry a horcrux on purpose.
 

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Posted by quiden (Member # 6982) on :
 
But the locket has already been identified as a horcrux. That's why we're trying to guess what the last one is.

I would be willing to bet that it is not snape.

PLAID: Great to see we're on the same page. I haven't read all of the posts here. Maybe we won't be the only one's who think that.

About Voldemort not killing Myrtle-- I'm not sure about this, but didn't she say that she didn't really see what killed her? Just the eyes maybe? "I was distraught!"

Besides, wouldn't Voldemort be killing her if he was controlling the Basilisk at the time? if he was responsible? I don't think it was an accident.
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
Looking a basilisk in the eyes kills you instantly. Thus, she saw a great set of eyes, and died. As to whether or not it counts as Volemort commiting murder or not (because it was on his orders), that's anyone's guess.
 

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Posted by quiden (Member # 6982) on :
 
Hmm. I can't say I like it, but I haven't heard the "Harry is a Horcrux" idea before. I guess it does make a bit of sense, though. Voldemort transferred a bit of himself into Harry when he tried to kill him. It could have been a part of his soul, but...

You know. Come to think of it, I don't think this is true at all. Because -- he gave Lily a chance to live so he wasn't necessarily bent on killing her to make a horcrux, and also he intended to kill Harry, so he wouldn't be planning to have made him a horcrux anyway.

Unless... Hey, Godric's Hollow could be the horcrux... [and it goes on and on and on....]
 

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Posted by Damien.m (Member # 8462) on :
 
Glenn Arnold i dont really think Siriusis a grim. Maybe the name Grimmauld Place is a hint that Sirius was going to die. Plus when harry enters the house he says it felt like he was entering the house of a dying man.
 

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Posted by Humean316 (Member # 8175) on :
 
"Looking a basilisk in the eyes kills you instantly. Thus, she saw a great set of eyes, and died. As to whether or not it counts as Volemort commiting murder or not (because it was on his orders), that's anyone's guess."

Well, I always thought that Riddle used the death of Myrtle to make the horcrux diary. From what we know of horcruxes, doesnt it have to be done pretty fast after a death? It would make sense then that the death of Myrtle created the diary horceux.
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
How long is always? Because the book only came out a few weeks ago...
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
Quiden- The idea I find most plausible is that LV meant to make a horcrux out of Harry's death (remember Dumbledore said it would be like him to use 'significant' deaths for his horcruxes?), but that Lily got in the way and messed things up somehow.

Not that Harry IS a horcrux, exactly, but I think there is plenty of evidence that he has something that connects him to Voldemort. He could see visions of what the snake was doing (it has a portion of LV's soul) and Harry is a Parselmouth, very, very rare, but something he shares with LV.
 

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Posted by quiden (Member # 6982) on :
 
Well, another thought that i have about the whole attack on the potters and the possibility of a horcrux being made is that perhaps he was going to make something else into one but then when his plan failed, he had to make some passing snake into it, which became Nagini. Since Dumbledore said that it would not be an ideal way to make one, maybe LV was out of options.
 

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Posted by akhockey (Member # 8394) on :
 
Nagini was made with the murder of Frank Bryce, to make up for the fact that no horcruxes were made during the Potter fiasco. And Myrtle was killed by the basilisk, and it wasn't on Riddle's orders, in the sense that he said "go kill Myrtle", and even if so, it'd be the same as him ordering a DE to "go kill Dumbledore". If all the murders that occured based off of LV's orders or minions counted towards LV's soul, then the guy is in worse shape than anyone thought...
 

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Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
 
Isn't it kinda weird that Voldemort used Nagini to make a horcrux, then used the basilisk venom as a pre-regeneration elixer to sustain himself? It's circular, kinda.
 

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Posted by quiden (Member # 6982) on :
 
I don't think that Nagini was made into a Horcrux with the Murder of Frank Bryce. I think that all of the Horcruxes would have had to have been made before he attempted to kill Harry. I just don't think he would be strong enough to make one afterwards.
 

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Posted by quiden (Member # 6982) on :
 
I have a question:

Some people have mentioned a locket that Kreature has at Grimmauld Place. Where is this refereced? Can you tell me what chapter/book/page?

Thanks
 

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Posted by Uhleeuh (Member # 6803) on :
 
Bottom of page 116 in the American children's hardback of OotP. The chapter called "The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black."

quote:

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...they all found themselves becoming curiously weak and sleepy until Ginny had the sense to slam the lid shut; also a heavy locket that none of them could open...

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Posted by quiden (Member # 6982) on :
 
thanks, that helps.
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
" I don't think that Nagini was made into a Horcrux with the Murder of Frank Bryce. I think that all of the Horcruxes would have had to have been made before he attempted to kill Harry."

Dumblefore said that Harry's murder was intended to create the final horcrux, but that since the spell failed, he used Frank Bryce's murder to make Nagini a horcrux, which explained why Harry could see through the eyes of the snake.
 

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Posted by akhockey (Member # 8394) on :
 
I think what actually allowed Harry to see through Nagini's eyes was that LV was possessing her at the time. Not much to do with the horcrux...
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
Except that dumbledore described it that way.
 

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Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
 
Mmmm.... We're not going to know anything until Rowling tells us so, are we?
 

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Posted by akhockey (Member # 8394) on :
 
I don't recall DD saying that. As I recall, he told Harry it had to do with possession.
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
I recall that too. Voldemort was guiding Nagini to do things and Harry was viewing it through Voldemort. That makes the most sense anyway.

Wasn't Frank Bryce killed something like 12 years after the attempted burder of Harry anyway? I don't see how there would be any connection between Harry and Nagini based on that.
 

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Posted by quiden (Member # 6982) on :
 
Ok, now I might have to go back and check, but I don't remember Dumbledore saying that the creation of the Horcrux Nagini was connected with Frank Bryce. Did he say that or are people just assuming?
 

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Posted by quiden (Member # 6982) on :
 
I just reviewed Dumbledore talking about the Nagini Horcrux and he says, "After an interval of some years, however, he used Nagini to kill an old Muggle man, and it might then have occurred to him to turn her into his last Horcrux."

I suppose it could be Frank Bryce, but it seemed to me in GOF that Voldemort killed Frank himself -- in fact, I'm sure of it because Frank came out of his wand, which if Nagini killed him, his wand wouldn't have been involved.
 

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Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by quiden:
"JKR: Well, I'm prepared to bet you now, that at least before the week is out, at least one of the Horcruxes will have been correctly identified by careful re-readers of the books."

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quote:

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We're still looking for a magical item tied to Godric Gryffindor. That could be the sword or the sorting hat, but how about a hippogriff? It would be deliciously ironic if Harry was forced to slay horcrux Witherwings. Maybe they renamed Buckbeak, not because it has wings on its withers, but because its wings are going to wither.

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Man, that would be the stupidest thing to happen in any book ever.
 

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Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
 
Thanks for the help guys.

Sirius sounds like the right answer. If Sirius and Hagrid were the first ones on the scene, they probably would have picked up any significant magical artifacts that belonged to Gryffindor.

The fact that Dumbledore never mentioned any members of the Order of Phoenix finding a magical artifact at Godric's Hollow leads me to speculate that Godric's magical item was probably destroyed during the horcrux spell, and a bit of Voldy's soul was imprinted into Harry's scar.

The other possibility is that a death eater showed up and picked up the Griffindor Horcrux. Maybe RAB or Snape? This is less likely because I think Dumbledore would have mentioned the missing artifact to Harry during their lessons.

If Harry (or his scar) is the horcrux, then we are left with many interesting possibilities. What if the horcrux spell does not allow the horcrux to destroy itself or, in this case, himself.

Then Harry could destroy all of Voldemort's other horcruxes and never eradicate Voldermort's soul from our world. Then we may also have a war between the Order of the Phoenix and the Ministry of Magic. You just know the new Minister of Magic wouldn't think twice about killing Harry.

The last scene would be Harry contemplating suicide by jumping through the same veil that Sirius fell through. But thanks to the love of his friends, he is able to fight that temptation and live out the rest of his life with the knowledge that Voldemort will always be a small part of him.

The last battle will be a battle inside Harry's own soul, as a sliver of Voldemort's soul tries to take control over Harry's body (think of this take over spell as a code red fail safe that is activated when all other horcruxes are destroyed).

Then we will see why it was so important for Harry to learn so much about Tom Riddle in book 6.

/rant

[ August 12, 2005, 08:06 AM: Message edited by: Beren One Hand ]
 

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Posted by Choobak (Member # 7083) on :
 
I just finshed the book and i have a supposition. I didn't read this thread before, so there is maybe others who had this one.

I had an idea because of three facts : first, when i read the snake was an horcrux, i realise that horcrux may be also a living thing ;
secondly, Voldemort must kill to product a horcrux ;
and thirdly, Harry is linked with Voldemort such as they may read in their minds.
So for me, when Voldemort killed harry's mum and dad, he fixed a horcrux on harry as his scare. He do that just as he realised the power of mother's love destroyed him.
That can explain many thing : why harry can speak the parseltongue, why the prophecy said that Voldemort "mark" them as his equal (if he has a part of the voldemort, it is actually his equal). No ?
And i forget that there is an unidentified horcrux... (Griffindor or Ravenclaw's one)
 

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Posted by Choobak (Member # 7083) on :
 
I just read what is writen... We have the same idea
 

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Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
 
If Voldemort made Nagini into a Horcrux when he killed Frank, why didn't anything indicating that come out of his wand when he and Harry were having their duel in the fourth book? Maybe it isn't done with a wand.

Jen
 

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Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
 
Voldemort also gave Pettigrew a new arm with his wand. Was there anything special indicating a shadow of that spell during the priori incantatem? I don't have my book with me so I can't check.

Choobak, glad to see a fellow scar-horcrux convert.
 

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Posted by Choobak (Member # 7083) on :
 
And I wonder If Dumbledore did a Horcrux too by his own death... It may explain the real sens of the argue with snape : he asked him to kill him... After that Voldemort believe that Dumbledore is dead. you see what i mean ? And that can also explain, why he petrified harry, why he had no real fear at the end (or just with snape for the comedy). But what is his horcrux in this case ?

Just a supposition...
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 

quote:

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Voldemort also gave Pettigrew a new arm with his wand. Was there anything special indicating a shadow of that spell during the priori incantatem? I don't have my book with me so I can't check.

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quote:

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Sirius sounds like the right answer

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quote:

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Originally posted by Beren One Hand:
Thanks for the help guys.

The last scene would be Harry contemplating suicide by jumping through the same veil that Sirius fell through. But thanks to the love of his friends, he is able to fight that temptation and live out the rest of his life with the knowledge that Voldemort will always be a small part of him.

The last battle will be a battle inside Harry's own soul, as a sliver of Voldemort's soul tries to take control over Harry's body (think of this take over spell as a code red fail safe that is activated when all other horcruxes are destroyed).

Then we will see why it was so important for Harry to learn so much about Tom Riddle in book 6.

/rant

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quote:

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Originally posted by rivka:
That's what I thought I remembered.

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quote:

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Originally posted by whiskysunrise:

quote:

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Originally posted by rivka:
That's what I thought I remembered.

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It is in POA.

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My copy is in storage.

But it will be mine again on Wednesday!
 

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Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
 
Ah, thanks Damien, that is a very important piece of information I was missing.
 

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Posted by whiskysunrise (Member # 6819) on :
 
rivka, most of my books are in storage too. I'm very glad that you will be getting yours. In honor of you getting your books back. . .

 

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Posted by akhockey (Member # 8394) on :
 
I guess I need to change missions, because I can see now I'll never destroy the Horcrux Harry theory. Toooo bad. While I don't see merit in it, as explained several times before, it's obvious this theory isn't going to die out. The only thing I can vehemently defend is that Dumbly is dead and he never did or would make a horcrux. That much is certain.
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
Akhocky- I don't think Harry is entirely a horcrux, but I don't see how you could completely discount the idea that something that happened while Voldemort was trying to make a horcrux (form a significant death, such as the death of his prophesied enemy) resulted in Harry being connected to part of Voldemort's soul. He could see through the snake's eyes, he's a Parselmouth, his scar hurts when Voldemort is around...

Just so long as you hang around for the crow a l'orange when book seven comes out.
 

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Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
 
I'm with Olivet. Harry's connection with Voldemort has never been clearly explained. I think we've just been told that no one has ever survived such an attack before so no one really knows how that connection works.

JKR rarely leave important things like that unexplained. So it is very possible that their connection is formed by a misfired horcrux spell.
 

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Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
 
On Dumbledore: I think he's probably dead but not gone. That is, I don't think he made a horcrux or will just be revived somehow. But there's always been talk of "the ones you love are never truly gone" and such. At the minimum there's his portrait, but there may also be some signifigance to the fact that he wanted his final resting place to be Hogwarts, which was mentioned as never being done before. There's also the possibility that phoenixes are a form of afterlife for powerful enough wizards. He may still be around in the vague sort of way like Harry's patronus is his father's animagus form.

Different subject though: Was anyone else bothered by Harry's decisions at the end of the book? Pushing Ginny away struck me as particularly stupid, what with how many times he's been told that love is the one great magic he has that Voldemort doesn't. His response toward the ministry seemed short-sighted as well. I wouldn't be happy with them in his place, but they could have been a source for resources and information helping his hunt for V's horcruxes, and he probably could have dictated his terms to get what he wanted without them getting in the way. Now they'll probably be more of an obstacle than an ally.

--Enigmatic
 

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Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
 
I could see Harry shunting the MoM, especially with his pointed comment about Stan Shunpike's arrest. I don't see what purpose they'd serve later on, they seem to be taking a very "duck and cover" stance in regards to the scary stuff that's happening.
 

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Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
 
But what kind of alliance can Harry have with the Ministry considering that vile woman Umbridge is still working for them?

I do think Harry should've been more diplomatic in his dealings with the Ministry. I mean, there are a lot of good people working there and, like you pointed out, they could have been a great source of information.
 

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Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
 
Most of those people seemed to already be in the Order, so that information would have already been exchanged, I'd think.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
The question is, will they share the information with Harry?

He's going to have to convince them that his going after LV alone is sane. Who's likely to believe him?

I'd guess Lupin and Tonks, maybe Mad-Eye, and no one else.

Imagine McGonegal's reaction. Unless Dumbledore's death creates a major change in everyone's personalities - and it might - I don't see much help from the order.
 

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Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
 
All the ministry seemed to want from Harry was the publicity. I don't think he should have said "Sure, I'll do what you guys want" but he could have offered his morale raising approval in exchange for Stan's release and access to ministry archives, top-secret records, and such. He wouldn't want to let them know what his real plan against V is, because it could leak out. But an official public story of "Potter is working for the Ministry now" would be a good cover story. V has to know the ministry isn't on the right track to defeat him, so if the DEs think Harry's taking their guidance in the matter it makes him seem like less of a threat.

But of course, that's far less dramatic than one boy and his two friends going it alone in the face of adversity, so it didn't happen. Logic takes a back seat to storytelling, once again.

I do wonder how involved Harry will be with the rest of the order of the phoenix, though. There are too many good characters there for them to be completely shut out of book 7, but if they do too much it decreases the "time to be a man and handle things myself" theme for Harry.

--Enigmatic
 

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Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
 
"But an official public story of "Potter is working for the Ministry now" would be a good cover story."

I think that's an excellent point. Harry can go around looking for horcruxes while some guy (Percy would be perfect for this) goes around making public speeches for the ministry as "the chosen one."
 

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Posted by Damien.m (Member # 8462) on :
 
Ok just thought of something re Harry as Horcrux theory. Thecnically speaking it was LVs own spell that caused his downfall. If he had not made the hocruxes he would have died. does inflicting Avada Kedavra on oneself constitute suicide and would it be counted as a form of murder? if this is so then LVs soul would have split when his own curse hit him. could this soul fragment have been transferred to Harry???
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
Hmm... I guess, but I don't think he'd ever do that to himself on purpose. No way.
 

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Posted by Damien.m (Member # 8462) on :
 
But LV didnt know he was doing it. He didnt anticipate that Lilys dying to save Harry would leave a lingering protection. LV didnt know the spell would rebound on himself.
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
Okay. I get what you were saying. Sounds plausible. I'm sure that something like that is probably what happened.
 

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Posted by Damien.m (Member # 8462) on :
 
While i keep thinking RAB is Regulus black I cant help thinking that might be a bit too easy. Some people have suggested these people
Mr borgin.(has shown dislike of death eaters in past and also knew LV)
Aberforth Dombledore(may have used his middle initials and JKR said we would find out more about him in book seven)
 

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Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
 
She seems to be hinting fairly strongly that it's a Death Eater, which Borgin isn't and I sincerely doubt Aberforth Dumbledore is. Harry says in the fifth book that only Death Eaters refer to Voldemort as the Dark Lord, and the note addresses him as the Dark Lord. Also Regulus Black's name pops up a number of times in the sixth book. Also there is the locket in Grimmauld Place. Also JK Rowling said she suspected one of the Horcruxes would have been correctly identified within a week of the book's publication. So Regulus is a fair bet.

Jen
 

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Posted by Damien.m (Member # 8462) on :
 
Yeah you're probably right plus the fact that Regulus had access to Kreacher whom is the only person short of a child I think, who would not be recognised by the boat in the cave. Regulus would have needed an accomplice to feed him the potion or vice versa. This could also explain why he was trying to save the objects in Grimmauld Place. Could he have been after the locket?
 

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Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
 
So since the amulet in Grimmwald place is the most likely horcrux for the readers to already know about, who wants to bet that it's the last one Harry actually finds?

--Enigmatic
 

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Posted by Damien.m (Member # 8462) on :
 
your probly right that would be really jkr.
 

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Posted by quiden (Member # 6982) on :
 
Ok, here's a theory on a different subject that I've been thinking about.

Wouldn't Dumbledore want to give Harry as much assistance as possible in his task, especially if he knew that he (Dumbledore) wouldn't be around to help?

I would very much like to see Harry be left some or all of Dumbledore's possesions in much the same way Sirius left Harry his stuff.

For example, what if Dumbledore had been saving memories in a cabinet that he leaves to Harry with the pensieve?

What if there is some significance to those silver instruments that are always running in D's office that Harry never knows what they do?

What if D wants to teach Harry some of the magical traces detection methods that he used in the cave to figure out what V had done?

I think there are many possibilities that would be beneficial to Harry and also make for a good story.

Most of all, I would very much like to see Harry get the Pensieve.

One more thing... what do you think of the posibility of Harry gaining more information from D's painting in the headmaster's office? I know there are some theories that D will be coming back, but just for now, let's assume he's not.
 

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Posted by Vid (Member # 7172) on :
 
Having just re-read GoF, I've got one more food-for-thought question:

Who owns the old Riddle House? Could that play a factor? I don't know how, but that seems like an innocent little line, and I think we can all agree that with JKR, any innocent little line can be a huge clue
 

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Posted by Damien.m (Member # 8462) on :
 
And we still have to find out the something huge about Lily Potter.

Any thoughts???(And no shes not a death eater and yes she is Harrys mother)
 

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Posted by quiden (Member # 6982) on :
 
I'd suggest that everyone (who listens to podcasts) check out the mugglecast podcast that's available through itunes. They talked about some of the issues we discuss here. You can also find it through mugglenet.com, i think.
 

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Posted by quiden (Member # 6982) on :
 
This discussion just kinda stopped. I thought I'd make a post to bring it back up to the top to see if anyone else would like to continue discussing this.
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
"Who owns the old Riddle House?"

Who's the wealthiest wizard you can think of?
 

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Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
 
Lucius Malfoy.
 

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Posted by Christy (Member # 4397) on :
 
Something that struck me as really obvious -- and made me mad as I read it because if it is true, it will cheapen Dumbledore's death -- that I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned here is that before the other Death Eaters and Snape arrive, Dumbledore spends quite some time telling Malfoy how if Malfoy comes to the right side, Dumbledore can hide him so well that everyone will have thought he had died in the attempt of killing Dumbledore. I think Dumbledore had a trick up his sleeve, but I guess I could just be in shock.
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
Who brought Harry to Dumbledore after Voldemort killed his parents?

They were in hiding. The hiding place was a secret that only Pettigrew (and the Death Eaters he told) knew. Harry was the only one left alive and he was a baby. Yet somehow Dumbledore gets Harry and the whole wizarding world learns that Voldemort has been vanquished.

So with that build up, here is my guess.

Snape was present when Harry's parents were murdered and he took Harry to Dumbledore. That is why Dumbledore trusts Snape.

I'm going to speculate even further. I think Snape's love for Lilly wasn't just admiration from afar. I think that at one point Severus and Lilly were an item and their break up is intimately connected with Snape becoming a Death Eater (either the cause or the effect or some of both).
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
One more thought along this line.

Slughorn kept saying that Harry's potions skills were just like his Mother's. His mother was in the same class as Snape and it now appears that the book was Snapes. What if the notes in the book are Lilly's work in Snape's book (or perhaps visa versa). Slughorn makes the comment about Lilly several times, I think its a clue we shouldn't neglect.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
I think Hagrid has said he took Harry out of the ruins of the house, and that Sirius Black showed up at the house as well.

I assume the death of the secret giver releases the secret, so competent wizards could then use spells to locate Harry. Dumbledore sent Hagrid, and Black was at least competent. It could have been Snape who told Dumbledore where the house was.

I don't think that hurts your speculation, especially the part in the last paragraph.
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
I think it's clear that Dumbledore wants to protect Draco. I think it explains why Snape had no hesitation accepting the unbreakable vow. Dumbledore had already told him that anything he did to protect Draco was OK. He may have already told Snape to kil him if it became necessary.

For the first time we're seeing that Draco is in over his head. In the past he was always proud of his family's history of support for Voldemort, because of their bigotry. But we've also heard about how many of Voldemort's followers were only in it because they feared him, not because they respected him. And we also know that Draco is a coward.

Not only is Draco getting in over his head, but he's also growing up, and issues that were clear as a child are turning out to be more complex. Dumbledore's been a headmaster for a long time, he's watched as children go through this kind of thing before. "I'll dare you to eat a worm" is a lot different than "I'll dare you to steal that car, try this drug, etc." Kids that thought they could be tough when they were younger reach a point where reality rears its ugly head, and suddenly their bravery and bravado doesn't serve its purpose anymore.

It comes back down to "choices" again, as Dumbledore told Harry in Chamber of Secrets. Dumbledore is trying to make sure that Draco has the opportunity to make the right choices, but he has to leave them up to Draco. If he'd had more time before the death eaters arrived at the top of the tower, he might have convinced Draco, but the best he could do was protect Draco by allowing Snape to do Draco's job, thereby protecting both Snape and Draco from Voldemort's wrath.
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
Dumbledore was the secret keeper for Grimmaud place, so only a note from Dumbledore could tell Harry the location, even when he was standing right in front of the house. The entire order of the Phoenix knows the location of Grimmaud Place, but they are unable to tell the location to anyone new. Only the secret keeper can do that.

So although Pettigrew was the secret keeper for the Potters, the rest of the order already knew the location, they just couldn't tell anyone.
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
But no one, excect James, Lilly, Sirius and Peter knew that Peter was the secret keeper until the events in Prisoner of Azkaban. If the members of the Order knew where James and Lilly were hiding, it would have to have been because Petigrew, the secret keeper, told them.

They didn't know he was the secret keeper, so it is also logical to assume that they didn't know the secret.
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
On a completely different line, Harry is going back to the Dursley's one last time. I that on this visit we are going to find out Aunt Petunia's secret. It's pretty clear that she has more knowledge of the Wizarding world than she lets on and that she and Dumbledore shared a secret understanding which has not been fully explained. I think that we will finally discover why Dumbledore chose to place Harry with the Dursley's. The protective spell alone is not an answer because it doesn't explain why Dumbledore put the protective spell on the Dursley's rather than somewhere else.

[ August 26, 2005, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
That would be a plot hole then, because no one who didn't already know the secret should have been able to find Harry.

The only way I see around it is that certain people knew the secret before the secret spell was cast, but they weren't able to tell anyone once Pettigrew was made secret keeper.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
Or the death of the person's whose secret is being kept unbinds the secret.
 

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Posted by Sartorius (Member # 7696) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
The protective spell doesn't answer alone is not an answer because it doesn't explain why Dumbledore put the protective spell on the Dursley's rather than somewhere else.

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quote:

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Regulus would have needed an accomplice to feed him the potion or vice versa.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Who brought Harry to Dumbledore after Voldemort killed his parents?

They were in hiding. The hiding place was a secret that only Pettigrew (and the Death Eaters he told) knew. Harry was the only one left alive and he was a baby. Yet somehow Dumbledore gets Harry and the whole wizarding world learns that Voldemort has been vanquished.

So with that build up, here is my guess.

Snape was present when Harry's parents were murdered and he took Harry to Dumbledore. That is why Dumbledore trusts Snape.

I'm going to speculate even further. I think Snape's love for Lilly wasn't just admiration from afar. I think that at one point Severus and Lilly were an item and their break up is intimately connected with Snape becoming a Death Eater (either the cause or the effect or some of both).

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dagonee:
Or the death of the person's whose secret is being kept unbinds the secret.

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The only problem with this -- in the case of the secret keeper for the Potters -- is that the secret keeper didn't die. He just went into hiding.

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But was Harry part of the secret?

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Rowling can make this one go either way - there's really no way for us to give one answer precedence over the other. Of course, that's true for pretty much all of this.
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
Personally I think it's pointless speculation, because I think the Order knew where James and Lily's house was, just as the Order knows where 12 Grimmaud Place is. We would have seen some evidence of controversy if it had been any different.

But your theory could be important since Dumbledore was the secret keeper for 12 Grimmaud place. Could Voldemort have found the place after he died?
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
I don't think there is any evidence that spells of any kind stop working when the witch or wizard who cast them dies. In fact, the evidence would suggest that the protective spells Dumbledore cast on the Dursley's home and Hogwarts remain in effect even though he has died. The map still works even thought two of its makers (James and Sirius) are dead.
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 

quote:

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Personally I think it's pointless speculation, because I think the Order knew where James and Lily's house was, just as the Order knows where 12 Grimmaud Place is.

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quote:

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But James and Lilly weren't simply in their home, their were hiding. Members of the Order know where 12 Grimmaud Place is because Dumbledore, the secret keeper, has told them. If Pettigrew, the secret keeper, had told them where James and Lilly were hiding, they would have known that Pettigrew was the Secret Keeper and they did not.

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But Dumbledore wasn't present when HArry found out about Grimmauld place. The other members of the Order could have easily been given a piece of paper like Harry was.

But I don't think that's what happened. Since Dumbledore feared a traitor in the Order I doubt he told many people where James and Lilly were. Rather I think it's something more like what Dagonee suggested. Or perhaps the destruction of Godric's Hollow undid the spell.
 

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Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
 
I have a question. Did Dumbledore know that Petigrew was the Potters's secret keeper? If so, then we have proof that he has made serious mistakes in the past with regards to his character evaluations.
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
I'll have to look at Prisoner of Askaban again to be certain but as I remember it, everyone but James, Lilly, Sirius and Peter believed that Sirius was the secret keeper. The implication is that Dumbledore believed that as well. That is the key to why everyone believed that Sirius was a Death Eater and to why he was convicted and sent to Askaban.
 

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Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
 
Ah, that's right Rabbit. Thanks.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
Anyone else wonder what the Sorting Hat was thinking when it put Wormtail in Gryfindor? That's assuming the hints we have as to why he defected are accurate - lack of courage.
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
If prophecies can't accurately predict the future, why do you think that the Sorting Hat can?

I think that all the Sorting Hat does is determine to which house you really want to belong. I can't think of any cases where people were highly upset by where the Sorting Hat placed them.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
I was thinking of bravery more as a trait than a prediction, I guess.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
That's true. Also, people can think they're courageous, but in fact not be. If he had an inflated self-image, the Sorting Hat might have misplaced him.
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
For that matter why did the sorting hat put Neville in Gryffindor?

And why didn't it put Hermione in Ravenclaw?
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
Neville stood up to the trio in book 1, and went to the Ministry in book 5. He's incompetent and timid until it counts, then he's brave.

According to Hermione in (I think) book 6, the hat considered placing her in Ravenclaw. She's certainly shown she's brave, so maybe that's where the choice comes in.
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Dagonee:
I was thinking of bravery more as a trait than a prediction, I guess.

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quote:

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Side note that may have been discussed: Is Olliviander's disappearance related to Voldemort wanting a new wand or wanting to know why the linkage happened? (Not a difficult prediction, but it struck me on rereading).

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