My normally well behaved kids, along with a few of their normally well behaved buddies jumped into a neighbor’s pool without permission. It started as a dare. They opened the gate; dared each other to push someone in and it was on from there.
I was pretty upset. There was a fair amount of grounding at our home. It turns out that none of the other kids involved were grounded. One father laughed it off and had a few words to say about my grounding the kids for such a minor thing as pool jumping. Another mom said she was going back to work in two weeks and didn’t want to mess up the time that she had left to spend with her daughter this summer. My issue isn’t necessarily with how the parents handled the incident, their business, it’s the feedback my kids got from their friends regarding the way their parents handled it. My kids got a lot of crap about being grounded. Okay, maybe I’m a little pissed about my friends laughing off or dismissing the incident.
I asked my kids if they'd go into a neighbor’s house if it was unlocked and help themselves to the refrigerator. Of course not! Same thing! They were breaking and entering into private property. What if someone had gotten hurt? What if they had damaged something? How would they feel if someone did that to their own private property?
Am I nuts?
I’m not normally a heavy handed disciplinarian. I find myself to be pretty balanced. I try to practice the “punishment fitting the crime” law.
This really upset me. They’d never done anything at all like this. My daughter is a very mature 11 yr-old and my son a normal 14 yr-old. I want them to remember this when they’re older. This will be a good memory. And what in the world will they be able to tell my grandchildren, to scare them, if I don’t give them some type of discipline for this type of behavior?
How many of you ever pool jumped or did something as naughty? What kind of lesson did you learn? What type of discipline did you receive?
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
I did lots of naughty things as a kid. I tell ya, I would not be the same person I am today if I didn't. And I like who I am today...
I think kids NEED to break a rule now and then in order to become well adjusted adults. There's something deep down that shrivels up and dies if you never give into temptation.
When kids break rules, its all about taking the risk. Your job as a parent largely involves limiting your child's risks, but in spite of this, the kids still need to learn to take them now and then. Deciding which risks to take is a huge part of growing up.
I understand your reaction, but I also understand the other parents'. They recognize that the kids did break a rule, but that in the grand scheme of things, it wasn't that bad of a risk to take. The kids did put themselves in minor danger, but no more than climbing a tree. They did risk getting in trouble, but it would have been minor trouble at best. So the parents aren't too upset, and probably see themselves in their children. Who hasn't done something similar?
Your kids might learn to avoid taking risks of getting in trouble, or they might not. You can never truly predict the effect of punishment on a child. Whose kids are more likely to turn down an offer of drugs or alcohol in later years? You probably think yours are, believing that the punishment helped them choose not to take risks. They probably think their kids will, since the kids got to expirement pretty freely with taking risks at a younger age. Whose kids have a better chance of turning out to be good people?
Nobody knows, and so nobody really has the right to tell other parents how to disipline their kids. I've known very strict parents whose three kids turned out to be drug dealers and high school drop outs (all three). I myself had lots of personal freedom, and ended up (I think) a pretty responsible, moral, and well adjusted person. Its not hard to find screwed up kids with either type.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Well, I don't think you over-reacted.
After all, they could have been arrested for breaking and entering -- especially if the people who owned the pool were to throw a fit about this happening.
So, in other words, they could have faced a much more dire punishment than just a grounding -- and not at your hands! It was truly illegal, and we like for our kids to learn to respect the laws and understand the consequences of what could happen if they break laws.
FG
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
You are absolutely within your rights to enforce your rules, and I think prohibiting tresspassing is a good one.
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
I did several things of that nature.. and fully expected to be drawn and quartered if I was caught.
You are handling it properly and it is serious as well as dangerous, but it is also the kind of thing kids will do.
Would've been fitting if neighbor had just shock treated the pool and it gave everyone a good rash
And, honestly, a good solid and fair punishment makes it a better memory... then it becomes "remember the outrageous things we did and how we got busted that one time?" rather than "hey... I never got punished for that before...!"
Just my $.02
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
I remember crashing my mom's Datsun when I was 5...my discipline was too horrid to mention.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
*points* Listen to Jim-Me. I've met his kids, and they all know their manners, and know how to behave around kids and adults. "Kids will do dumb things, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be punished for it." Sounds like good advice to me!
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Arrested or shot. All it takes is one skittish neighbor.
I'm assuming they knew this neighbor didn't have a guard dog or just an ill-tempered animal about the premises.
Not to mention the very real possibility of drowning, although I don't know if that's as much a possibility for your kids at this point or not.
That said, I don't think you overreacted - your kids obviously didn't consider the consequences of what they did (or were about to do, at the time) and understanding the concept of "consequences for actions" is a much underrated survival skill.
I'd go a step further and explain _why_ you're upset - yes, in the grand scheme of things pool-jumping is relatively minor, albeit illegal offense. But they must understand what might have happened for what seemed like a momentary bit of harmless fun.
-Trevor
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
It's like cops and robbers. The older you get, the worse the results from getting caught by the, uh, cops.
The thing is with the pool, is that it was unsupervised, and gates are for keeping unattended kids out, even if it's a teen. Why? Because something could happen, someone could hit their head, and no one would know where they were.
I know that when I worked at a summer camp, my campers knew that the only time I'd get angry at them and they'd Serious Discipline for is when they put themselves or anyone in danger of harm.
Of couse there were other rules, and if they broke them, they'd pay for it in some ingenious camp way. But I also taught them the fun of practical jokes with certain rules. No one gets hurt and nothing gets broken or destroyed in any way.
They followed it and came up with some brilliant jokes.
Hell, part of camp IS playing jokes. I'd caught more than a few of them running through camp in the middle of the night.
Were they supposed to be in their cabins?
Yes.
Did I send them back?
No. They remained in the lighted cabin area and there were a large group of them. I told them to be quiet or they'd get caught by someone who doesn't appreciate a good joke. And if I heard them again, I'd send them back.
However, if I ever caught a kid in the boating or swimming area without permission, that kid would be in some serious trouble. Water plus unsupervised kids is just asking for trouble.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
I think you handled the situation appropriately, Tammy.
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
thanks, KQ.
As several people have reiterated, there is a lot that could have gone wrong... and bulletproof teens seldom think about that.
You are just letting them know to do so... but don't let it stop you from laughing with (and at) them for their impudence!
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
Xavier wrote:
quote: I think kids NEED to break a rule now and then in order to become well adjusted adults. There's something deep down that shrivels up and dies if you never give into temptation.
When kids break rules, its all about taking the risk. Your job as a parent largely involves limiting your child's risks, but in spite of this, the kids still need to learn to take them now and then. Deciding which risks to take is a huge part of growing up.
I understand your reaction, but I also understand the other parents'. They recognize that the kids did break a rule, but that in the grand scheme of things, it wasn't that bad of a risk to take. The kids did put themselves in minor danger, but no more than climbing a tree. They did risk getting in trouble, but it would have been minor trouble at best. So the parents aren't too upset, and probably see themselves in their children. Who hasn't done something similar?
See, this really bothers me. Yes, kids take risks--Yes, they give into temptation...but just because we KNOW they're going to do it doesn't mean they should get away without any consequences. As an adult, these would be natural consequences of their actions. As a child, those consequences are created by parents, since natural consequences aren't guaranteed to occur, after all. But it's all about teaching your kids proper behavior, and above ALL, that MOMMY means BUSINESS. Consistency is so important when raising children, they remember when you give in. It's only okay to give in if you want to raise little hellions.
Tammy was right to discipline her children for their actions. She wasn't being a mean mommy. She has a responsibility to those children to help them learn right from wrong, decorum, and all that jazz.
That father taught his children that it's okay to disrespect other people's property if you really want to.
That other mother taught her daughter that if she really wants something, all she has to do is make mommy feel guilty for working.
Tammy, your kids will learn to deal with being one of the few kids on the block with parents that care enough to discipline--and someday, they'll thank you for it.
Of course... I'm not a parent... But I watch Nanny911 and Supernanny. I pay attention.
-Katarain
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
I think what they did was about as dangerous as crossing the street. The boy was 14 years old for crying out loud. If he climbed a tree would he be grounded for a year? I can't imagine what he would get for riding his bike around the block
I have no problem with him being punished for breaking a rule (and even more understanding if its for breaking the law), but I don't think they should be given a safety lecture. The pool was filled with water, not razor blades.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
Yeah, he's 14 years old--so he should know better than to trespass in someone else's yard and pool. THAT is the point, here. And there are plenty of accidents that occur in and around pools--especially when there is a group of laughing/running kids around.
-Katarain
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Water can be quite dangerous. A kid falls, hits his head and goes into the water. If he can't get out, he's got 4-6 minutes under there before brain damage can occur.
Yeah, kids will do silly and dumb things. They'll take risks, it's a part of life.
But there's consequences. And there's some significant consequences when they do something that puts them in danger.
Xav, I think it was as dangerous as crossing the street, but only if they didn't look both ways before they did so.
I think having been a lifeguard and growing up around water my whole life, I have a lot of respect for it.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote: See, this really bothers me. Yes, kids take risks--Yes, they give into temptation...but just because we KNOW they're going to do it doesn't mean they should get away without any consequences.
Did I say that? No, I don't think I did. I did say that if the other parents believe that what their kids did doesn't warrent punishment, its none of anyone elses business, except perhaps the owner of the pool.
quote:That father taught his children that it's okay to disrespect other people's property if you really want to.
That other mother taught her daughter that if she really wants something, all she has to do is make mommy feel guilty for working.
Excuse me? How do you make these flying leaps of logic. Not punishing your kid for something does not mean you are condoning their actions. Did the parents tell the kid not to do it again? YOU DON'T KNOW. You do not have to ground your kid for something in order to teach them a lesson.
quote:Tammy, your kids will learn to deal with being one of the few kids on the block with parents that care enough to discipline--and someday, they'll thank you for it.
How DARE you say the other parents don't care enough about their kids. They don't have the same disipline philosophy. That has nothing to do with caring.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:Xav, I think it was as dangerous as crossing the street, but only if they didn't look both ways before they did so.
How do you figure?
I swam in a pool unsupervised for about 600 hours from ages 10-14 (rough head math). I never got hurt in any way.
If I crossed a street without looking even 600 times, I would probably be paralyzed.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
quote: Excuse me? How do you make these flying leaps of logic. Not punishing your kid for something does not mean you are condoning their actions. Did the parents tell the kid not to do it again? YOU DON'T KNOW. You do not have to ground your kid for something in order to teach them a lesson.
Not punishing your kid for something DOES mean that you are condoning their actions. The only time it doesn't is when you're no longer in the position to be able to punish them.
EDIT: Also, another time when it's not necessary to discipline (I should have said discipline--not punish up there), is when the natural consequences are already severe enough to teach the appropriate lesson.
TELLING a kid not to do something again without any sort of solid discipline is worth NOTHING. No, they didn't have to ground their children, but they FAILED their children by looking the other way.
quote: How DARE you say the other parents don't care enough about their kids. They don't have the same disipline philosophy. That has nothing to do with caring.
I say it quite easily. Parents who CARE about their children DISCIPLINE their children.
-Katarain
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
Xavier, you're obviously not a homeowner. Stupid stunts are one thing, breaking and entering is another. If someone had broken into my yard to go pool jumping, I would have been livid. Knowing that you had punished them, Tammy, would have been enough for me. If I found out the other parents did nothing, I might have pressed charges.
Kids do stupid things. It's up to their parents to make sure they know how stupid they were and not to do it again. I think the other parents fell down on the job pretty hard. Now their kids think pool jumping is OK.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:Xavier, you're obviously not a homeowner.
So I guess this is the point where personal assumptions are made. *sigh* Actually I do have partial ownership of a house, which even has a pool. But why exactly was that assumption "obvious"? Was I implying that I wouldn't be upset if someone were swimming in my pool without my permission? Reread my posts, I never said anything of the sort.
quote:Kids do stupid things. It's up to their parents to make sure they know how stupid they were and not to do it again. I think the other parents fell down on the job pretty hard. Now their kids think pool jumping is OK.
Again, how do you know that the kids think that? How do you know that the parents didn't tell their kids that what they did was wrong? What's so special about punishment that its required to teach your children not to do something?
Do none of you remember being 14 years old? Are you really saying that you can't learn a lesson at that age without punishment?
Posted by dean (Member # 167) on :
Um, there are a lot of things I did as a kid that I didn't get punished for that I KNOW my parents didn't think was okay.
In this case, if it were my kid, I probably would have had them apologize in person to the person who owned the pool and make whatever restitution that person wanted them to make rather than grounding them. If that person was like, "Oh, that's okay," I wouldn't expect my kids to be like, "Oh pool-jumping is just fine, no one cares." But I did know a few home-owners as a kid who didn't really care if someone sneaked into their pool as long as they behaved safely and didn't break things or make themselves nuisances.
So I wouldn't've gone with NO punishment, but I wouldn't have grounded them, you know?
Still some parents value risk-taking in their kids. I can definitely see and understand that, and it doesn't seem to me like pool jumping is such a huge risk. It's not like taking crack or something. Just-- there are far worse things that they could have been doing.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:One father laughed it off and had a few words to say about my grounding the kids for such a minor thing as pool jumping.
One father said it was minor. It's not - it's trespassing and it's dangerous. I bet the same father would sue the homeowner if something had happened.
quote:Another mom said she was going back to work in two weeks and didn’t want to mess up the time that she had left to spend with her daughter this summer.
This mother obviously cared a great deal about teaching the lesson, huh?
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
quote:Originally posted by dean: But I did know a few home-owners as a kid who didn't really care if someone sneaked into their pool as long as they behaved safely and didn't break things or make themselves nuisances.
Dean,
you know some dangerously uneducated homeowners. They are liable for anything that happens in their pool. If those kids get hurt, their parents can sue... especially if the kids were there unsupervised.
Xavier,
No one is saying that 14 year olds can't learn without punishment... what people are saying is that actions speak louder than words and when your actions make it so there is no consequence, it doesn't matter how many times you say "that was wrong", what children know is that it didn't get anyone concerned enough to take action.
Punishment may be severe or lenient, but it has to be there or the lack of action betrays the meaninglessness of your words.
(edited to soften a harsh word)
[ June 14, 2005, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: Jim-Me ]
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
As has been said, it's not necessarily that the kids were going to get hurt--although that was a real danger. It was that they were doing the wrong thing and they knew it. They need to expect consequences for that kind of action.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
And...
My...
Point...
Is...
That...
Its...
None...
Of...
Your...
Business...
IF THEY DON'T.
And now I leave the thread, if not for good, then for the rest of the day anyway.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
(sorry to see Xavier slamming the door on the way out of his grand exit).
It was a good discusssion........
FG
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Hey I'm posting, I'm breaking my word!
Haha, its not about the topic, so its fair game.
Sorry Farmgirl, just know when I am getting more upset then a topic warrents. Its usually time to exit gracefully if I can, or like a whiny bitch like above .
Its okay, all it takes is for me to say I am done with it, and I instantly lose that emotional attachment I had to the argument. Lets me take a much needed deep breath.
I usually only need it once in a great while, but its harder when you feel like you are the only one arguing a given side. Can be overwelming, and can easily trigger your "I'm being ganged up on" flight of fight thing. Even when the opposite side is being largely respectful and rational (as in this case).
So sorry again, and I probably will be back to discuss more (if its still active), I just need to chill for a bit.
Edit: misspellings are a good sign that my blood is a little hotter than it should be, so I'm gonna let the massive spelling and grammar mistakes in this post stand, sort of as evidence .
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
quote: One father laughed it off and had a few words to say about my grounding the kids for such a minor thing as pool jumping.
Sorry, but that doesn't sound like someone who has taught their children that what they did was wrong, punishment or not.
Xavier, I assumed you weren't a homeowner, because if you were, you would know that you, the homeowner, could be held liable if anyone got hurt. Was that gate locked? Was it standing ajar? Did it present enough of an obstacle even though they should know better in the first place?
edit: Sorry to jump on you Xavier. I've seen something similar to his before where the homeowner got sued by the parents because they should have done a better job of keeping their kids out.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Xavier -- are you gonna throw something at me if I say "you might have a different viewpoint once you have kids" ??
Because it really does change your view on some of these things when you are the parent. Really. At least it sure change my viewpoints on a lot of things..
But you know I really like you, so I'm not trying to make you mad. I'm just trying to continue the discussion. I think most of the other people who have posted counter=points are parents, and I wonder if that changes perspective at all.
Yeah - I agree on some things it is a "pick your battles" and don't make a big deal out of little stuff -- when it comes to parenting. On that point I agree with you. This just happens to be more toward the "bigger" end for me (even though no one got hurt) just because of the idea of respecting other people's property -- not because it was a pool.
FG
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
It is my business when those kids go on continuing to think they can do whatever they want and start breaking into MY property... or when they grow up and continue the same sort of behavior, yet elevated a few notches.
I can't make the parents start being GOOD parents, but I can certainly make my opinion known on the subject because how you raise your children DOES affect our society. And as a member of society, that makes it my business.
This is going to seem like an extremist statement, and I don't mean it as harsh as it sounds...but I really do believe that parents not disciplining their children is a form of child abuse. No, it's not the same as other types of abuse...and certainly not as horrific, but it is definitely doing those children a disservice.
-Katarain
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
Xav,
good on ya' for catching that and dealing with it. It is definitely no fun to be the only one defending a side...
on that note, I believe I should edit something I posted earlier with apologies to Dean.
Posted by dean (Member # 167) on :
I didn't say I condoned those home-owners, just that that was how they felt about it.
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
You know, not all kids need some sort of punishment to understand that they've done something wrong. I can't recall a time I was ever grounded, but I think I've turned out all right. Most of the time knowing my parents were disappointed in me was enough to make me feel rather bad.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Just two things...
I think If I just choose what to reply to I might be okay.
Zan, I know the laws about liability. New York actually has a law where you need a 4 foot fence with all doors automatically latching and swinging closed if left open. Again dude, I never said I wouldn't be upset with my kid if he swam in someones pool without permission, and I also never said that I wouldn't be mad if someone swam in mine...
And to both you and Farmgirl, I never said that Tammy shouldn't have punished her kids. Everyone's kids respond differently to punishment, and everyone has different disipline styles. If it were my kid, I might have done the exact same thing.
My issue here was everyone judging the other parents. We only have second hand accounts of what was said and done by them first of all, and we have no idea what their kids are like, or how they respond to punishment secondly.
My first post presented both sides as being valid ways of dealing with having your kids' misbehave. I never said that either way was wrong. Everyone else on this thread expept dean were saying that tammy's way is right, and that the other parents were in the wrong. Or am I misunderstanding the other side as well as being misunderstood?
Edit: And I might not be a parent yet, but it wasn't too long ago I was a teenager. I think my views are just as valid. I was never officially grounded, and I learned my lessons just fine. For some kids, having a rational talk about what they did wrong, and why it was wrong, does wonders for correcting behavior. Far better than punishment does. The boy is 14 for crying out loud. You parents haven't forgotten what it was like to be 14 have you? Which way would have worked best on you? Grounding or a good talking to?
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote: but I really do believe that parents not disciplining their children is a form of child abuse.
Not een colse to it, IMO. Just because I chose to teach my kids some other way than what you would have chosen to do it DOES NOT make it ANY of your business.
That siad, I would have probably done SOMETHING to my kids for that, and considered it part of my duty as a parent.
Xavier....I think her main point was that someone else had a problem with the way she disaplined HER kids, not so much that she disagereed with the other kids punishment.
It goes both ways, and if I had been her I would have told off the arrogant father who presumed to tell her her own business.
My mom and dad had a way of dealing with that type of situation....they would tell my sister and me "Well, you aren't THEIR kids, you are ours...", and that would be the end of it.
Kwea
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
I was never grounded either... but then, my mother was super over-protective, so she wouldn't allow us to do a lot of things anyway.
I'm curious...if you were never grounded, what sort of discipline did your parents use?
My mom wasn't the best disciplinarian, but she was a single-mother, and I give single parents a lot of leeway in their parenting. She did her best, and we turned out alright. My brothers got a few lickin's when they did things really bad, like throwing rocks at cars, but I can't remember a time when I got hit. The guilt was always enough to keep me in line.
-Katarain
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
Parental disapproval *is* punishment... ask my oldest sometime.
Dean, I just didn't want my off hand comment to in any way feel directed at you, by association...
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Ah, I see, Xavier.
And I was never (in my mind) addressing how the other parents reacted/or didn't react. I was just trying to validate Tammy that her reaction was understandable.
RRR -- you make a good point too. I don't think I've ever had to ground my daughter, and she is a darn good kid. But then again, she is very hurt if she just knows that something she is doing has disappointed me, or hurt my feelings or expectations or the values our family holds. Some kids are so sensitive that they kind of self-police in that way.
FG
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
Kwea wrote:
quote:Not een colse to it, IMO. Just because I chose to teach my kids some other way than what you would have chosen to do it DOES NOT make it ANY of your business.
That siad, I would have probably done SOMETHING to my kids for that, and considered it part of my duty as a parent.
Aww, come on... it's not really fair to cut off all of my disclaimers when I made that statement. I knew it was an extreme statement.
I was saying that discipline is necessary--I don't care what TYPE of discipline. Your doing something else is still discipline.
I don't know these parents that Tammy is referring to--but I am making comments about them in the general sense, as if they were any parents behaving that way. I know it's sort of a shady line, but I think it's okay for me to offer my opinions in a definitive way in regards to general parenting--but NOT okay for me to open my mouth and say something to someone personally about the way that THEY are parenting. Does that make sense?
This is going to seem really superficial, because officially I hate reality TV, but darn if they don't suck you in...but anyway, when I watch those Nanny shows and see the parents giving in to their children's whining--I think that's a very BAD thing. I won't say abuse again (nyah), but it is NOT doing any favors for those kids.
-Katarain
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:Xavier....I think her main point was that someone else had a problem with the way she disaplined HER kids, not so much that she disagereed with the other kids punishment.
But I never argued against Tammy's reaction to it. Really. I argued against those who judged the other parents. I'll even reread my posts to make sure.
Edit: On reread it seems like the posts about the safety issue could very well have been taken to be against Tammy's reaction, but I didn't mean it to be. My meaning there was that if safety was that there were far more valid concerns than it being unsafe, and that I disagree as to the extent which the kids were in danger.
[ June 14, 2005, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: Xavier ]
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
quote:I'm curious...if you were never grounded, what sort of discipline did your parents use?
Telling me what I did was wrong, I guess. I don't really remember that clearly. I know I was never hit or grounded, though. I think a few times my parents threatened to take my TV away for not cleaning my room, though. I don't really remember doing anything that bad as a kid.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
Yeah... that's my problem too... that I can't remember doing anything really bad as a kid.
I don't know... the more I think about it, the more I can see that yeah, some kids only need their parents to tell them certain things are wrong... RRR being an example of this...and, I think, me too.
So yeah... discipline should always be tailored to the kid--no one system should be applied, in my opinion, without thought to every kid out there. But still... even though the kids can understand that something is wrong... I still think that in 90% of the cases, they still need to suffer the consequences of their actions. Just knowing it's wrong isn't enough.
I might have learned my lesson simply from knowing something was wrong, but it wouldn't have hurt me to learn a few more lessons on how my actions can cause bad things to happen.
Yadayadayada... my post count is going up...
-Katarain
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
quote:I have no problem with him being punished for breaking a rule (and even more understanding if its for breaking the law),
I haven't read the full thread but this line jumped out at me.
The fact of the matter is that these kids went into ANOTHER PERSON'S yard, not their own yards, and went into ANOTHER PERSON'S pool, again, not their own, on a lark. That's trespassing and therefore these kids are breaking the law.
I don't know that I would punish my kids for pooljumping if it were in my own pool or the pool of the family of one of the friends involved. But I sure as <bleep> would come down and come down HARD for their blatant disregard for the neighbor's property and the implicit "keep out" that the fence represents.
No, I'm not a homeowner yet. If by some fortune I eventually become a homeowner and if by further grace I'm able to be financially sound enough to erect and maintain a pool, then I will discuss the possibility of shared time - and shared responsibilities - with the parents of the neighboring children. But until the owner of the pool gives explicit consent for the kids of the neighborhood to use his private property, then it's strictly forbidden.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
I'm not sure I understand the reference to my quote there Goody. I actually posted that sentence is support for Tammy's punishment.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I didn;t mean to take that completely outr od context...notice I didn;t jump all over you, or make any rude remearks? I was saying that there is a difference between abuse and a real disagreement of what type of punishment is correct.
I was sure by your other comments that you weren't going overboard with it, and look at the rest of my post...I agree with you at, least in part...
I am just pointing out that there IS a line where it beno one elses busines, and that people have the right to determine what is and is not a big deal for their families.
There were people in our neighborhood that stuch their noses in EVERYONES business, claiming that it WAS their business because we all lived in teh same neighborhood. Not only were they usually wrong about what was going on, but eventually my parents told them off.
And they weren't the most permissive parents in teh world...and my sister and I were NOT wild kids.
That came later, here in MA...
Kwea
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:I don't know... the more I think about it, the more I can see that yeah, some kids only need their parents to tell them certain things are wrong... RRR being an example of this...and, I think, me too.
So yeah... discipline should always be tailored to the kid--no one system should be applied, in my opinion, without thought to every kid out there.
Yikes!
That is my whole point nicely stated by the person who by far had the most hostility to my posts.
The amount of understanding that has emerged in this thread in the last twenty minutes is truly amazing! Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:So yeah... discipline should always be tailored to the kid--no one system should be applied, in my opinion, without thought to every kid out there.
I agree with the sentiment, but if it were my pool, I'd want to know the punishment being handed out by the parents. And I would complain if I didn't feel it was adequate. This was not a victimless infraction, even if there was no permanent damage.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
Well, hey, it's just a friendly debate...
I didn't think you were jumping over me much... thus the "Aaw Come on" response..
I happen to think that my brother and his wife a tad too permissive with their son--but just a little bit. I don't mention this to them. It's not my business. But if we ever got together and had a general discussion about parenting, I wouldn't hold back my opinions--but I also would be sure not to make it sound like I was jumping on them. Especially because they're great parents--I am WELL aware that I can have all of the theories I want to on parenting, but when I'm actually a parent, following through and being consistent with my children is going to be nigh impossible. It's easy to SAY these things. So, I watch parents when I can, and I learn what I can... and I'll do my best when I finally do have children..
And I can only hope that when the day comes that they do something as stupid as pool jumping at the neighbor's pool, that I'll remember that I have the duty to discipline them for it--in whatever method is appropriate.
-Katarain
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
quote: Yikes!
That is my whole point nicely stated by the person who by far had the most hostility to my posts.
The amount of understanding that has emerged in this thread in the last twenty minutes is truly amazing! [Smile]
I am often of the opinion that most debates occur because of improper communication.
But Dag made a good point, too. This was a serious infraction. I still have great skepticism in the value of the "stern talking-to." That method should be used sparingly and built on years of previous real discipline, whether it be spankings, groundings, or time-outs--or something else. Whatever. I think if all the kid ever gets is stern talking-to's, the words lose all meaning.
I'm sorry I seemed hostile to you--mostly, I didn't like your ideas. I don't like to think that debates are personal. Forgive me if I word things harshly... if I'm all timid, people just forget I'm here.
-Katarain
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I agree with you there katarain, but it IS easy to get too judgemental with things like that, so unless I am involved (as in this case if it had been my pool) I try to avoid any discussionof it unless asked directally.
If asked, I am honest though...
Xavier, the potential for danger if very present in pools. While you may not have had a problem ever, a lot of kids die in pools every year because of the "it's only a pool" attitue a lot of people have.
I don't think they were in immedate danger, but the potential is there one way or another, and it isn't a ever present danger like crossing the street.
I also think that part of acting out like that, which IS normal, is accepting the concequences of those actions if caught.
Kwea
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
I go home now... don't tell me that now that we all made nice, the debating stops... *sigh*
I need more entertainment in my life.
-Katarain
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kwea:
I also think that part of acting out like that, which IS normal, is accepting the concequences of those actions if caught.
I wanted to make this point, too, just didn't do it as well. It's just no fun being a hooligan if you aren't facing punishment for it.
Or, to put it back on Xavier's original terms, part of teaching your kids to take risks *properly* is making it a *risk*... not a cake walk. Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
Whew…I just finished reading your comments, at least most of them. Maybe I didn’t explain some things like I should have.
Last night after I found out what had happened I called Jim the owner of the pool. I’d never met him or his wife. We have a list with phone numbers and addresses of everyone in the neighborhood. I told him I was aware of what had happened at the pool and that I was sorry. I told him that the kids and I had discussed what had happened and that I was taking the matter very seriously. He’s a very nice man; he voiced his concerns and told me what he’d discussed with the kids.
I knew that he’d already talked to the kids and that they’d apologized to him. Earlier that evening, the pool owners were asking around trying to find out who had been in their pool. My children and the girl who’s mom is going back to work in two weeks went and confessed. They didn’t have to, but they did. I’m proud of them for that and I told them so. They knew what they did was wrong. My children were very quiet and respectful while I was talking to them about this. They knew.
I wanted my children to know that what was done could not be repeated. I wanted them to understand how serious it is to cross lines into private property. I think the fact that they jumped into an older couple’s pool bothered me a lot. If they had jumped into one of the children’s pools, I wouldn’t have been as upset. As parents of the children, we deal with stuff like that differently. Being the parents, we’re a little more forgiving and lenient and we all give a little in that area. These older folks don’t have to play that game.
As an after thought I brought up the seriousness of unsupervised horseplay in a pool. They’re strong swimmers and I’m pretty secure when they’re in water.
You know, when you have neighbors that are as close to us as ours are, mainly because of the kids, you have little issues that crop up once in awhile. For the most part, the kids all get along pretty well. They’re kids, they play, fight, fuss, ignore each other, make-up, etc.
The kids cross streets (probably without even looking sometimes), climb trees, play in the woods, jump on trampolines, ride bikes and skateboards, play basketball, baseball, football, raid each other’s refrigerators, play in each others rooms, etc. The boys tease the girls and the girls give it right back to them. The girls play silly games that include daring each other to do silly things, like ring a neighbor’s door and ask them if they can borrow an ice cube or cotton ball. Most of the kids are on the same soccer, basketball or softball teams. These kids are active and they take appropriate risks every day. These kids are silly. These kids are pretty stinking normal. Occasionally we have to get together as parents and play referee. It’s rare. Most of the time the kids end up coming in at the end of the day and no one has to go looking for their kids. They really do have a lot of freedom. They usually keep to the homes of their friends. I’ve never seen them cross the boundaries over to “childless” homes.
I honestly can say that I’ve never thought twice about the way my neighbors have disciplined their children in the past. My plate is full. I have plenty to deal with!
It just bugged me a bit this time that they dealt with this the same way they’d deal with a tiff between the kids, or something as normal as that.
This was different to me.
As far as the grounding goes, I’m really not that creative or evil. I just take away what they really like…for a little while.
I won't even begin to go into how my parents would discipline me for a certain look or for one little word of talking back. That was then...this is now.
p.s. Elizabeth, the other little girl in this story just called me right now to apologize for putting dog poop in my son's shoe. Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
I'm a little late to the party, but I wish I'd been here earlier to say I agree with Xavier.
Punishment is earned, but with an 11 and 14 year old I think grounding is a little harsh. If it were me (and it's not, so this is just my humble opinion - I support every parent's right to discipline their own children however they see fit) I would say that grounding is a bit harsh. If the kids are 6 and 8, totally different story. But with kids that age, I would think the stern talking to would probably do the trick.
Presumably, they would understand the need to respect other people's property and why such boundaries are necessary. Even the liability issues can surely be explained.
More to say on this, but I'm sick of typing.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
You know, it sounds to me like the kids have learned and understand how wrong it was. If I grounded them, I'd probably be fairly easy on them. I'm not sure what a "fair amount" of grounding will accomplish.
Let me add a personal experience. When I was about fifteen, my friends and I took a bus across town to the mall to go to a movie and hang out. I thought I had explained our plans pretty clearly to my parents, but they didn't remember such an explanation.
We stayed at the mall a lot longer than we should have. Eventually we called my friend's mom, who came to pick us up. All our parents were upset that we'd been gone so long—especially mine, since they didn't know where I actually was.
They grounded me from going to movies with my friends for the rest of the summer—and it was still only June. My parents talked to my friends' parents and said stuff like, "So, what are you going to do to ground so-and-so?" and the answer from all my friends' parents was "Nothing."
My grounding from movies only lasted a few weeks, and I think even that was excessive. I didn't need to be grounded to learn that what I'd done was wrong. I didn't need grounding to deter me from doing it again. Frankly, I think my parents' anger with me far exceeded any crime I had committed. Just keep that in mind when punishing your kids.
Posted by dean (Member # 167) on :
I'm on the opposite side, JT. When they're younger, they're less likely to understand how wrong what they were doing was, and to be less able to relate the length of time of the punishment to the seriousness of the infraction. Older kids can handle longer punishments than little kids can and are more likely to deserve them by having knowingly done something wrong.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Haha, the amount of typos in this thread is amazing (myself being one of the worst offenders). Guess it shows just how fast we were all typing .
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Sounds like they knew what was up, and wanted to make amends...I would probably consider that when deciding punishment.
But it souldn't be a cake walk, and there should be concequences.
Posted by Father Time (Member # 7985) on :
Zavier,
Allow me to submit that you are wrong. But--you're entitled to be.
Age is not the factor--those who were gorunded learned a valubale lesson in many ways.
To repsect other peoples property. To understand that every decision has a consequence--good or bad. To understand that rules in a household are a predecessor to rules in a nation.
To have no consequence for your actions encourages disrespect.
You also showed no concern for the welfare of the home owners. Regardles of the age of the teens, people slip, fall, get injured and die, yes even teen agers. These homeowners would have been devastated and potentially liable for not locking the gate. In this day and age of ridiculous litigation, you just never know.
I hope I'm not being too hard on you but this goes beyond a stupid prank and these aprents were very justified to lay down the law. The other parents missed a teaching moment. But then, they taught their children to do as they please without consequence.
Oh well. Let's all go for a swim.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
.............
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I'm late to the pool party too, but I just want to voice my agreement with Tammy. I definitely would have grounded my kids.
Trespassing someone else's property is not a lighthearted prank. It's a crime. And I believe it was last year when a teen supposed to be a strong swimmer drowned in our area, there was a big to-do about it on the news. No matter how strong you are, water must be respected at all times.
I think Tammy's kids sound like great kids, they knew they did something wrong, they fessed up and they apologized. But I think the reason they are probably great kids is because Tammy has raised them to respect others and other people's property and she is the type of mom that isn't going to write off criminal behavior with "oh well, kids will be kids."
Good on you for stepping up and wanting to teach your kids a valuable lesson. I feel sorry for the kids whose parents don't want to enforce responsibility in their lives. Those kids could learn lessons the hard way down the road.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Not to mention, you can't be guaranteed the homeowners would be willing to let things go.
I refer you to the "Good Samaritan Cookie Case" - how much did the families of those girls have to pay, even though the teens had the best of intentions?
-Trevor
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
I'm debating whether to respond to Father time.
On one hand, he addressed me by, well sort of, by name, and that should warrent a response I would think.
On the other hand, its hard to believe from his post that he actually read any of my posts in this thread.
So I think I am gonna go with not responding...
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Except for the response you just made to him, of course...
Posted by Valentine014 (Member # 5981) on :
Took me a while to read through the whole thread, and I think I read it pretty cafefully, but I have a couple of questions.
Was the pool gate locked? If it wasn't, is that law in your state (not sure which one you're in, it's not in your profile)? If it wasn't locked and it is the law, is that a concern for you? That it might happen again, and this time something bad happened?
You stated:
quote: I try to practice the “punishment fitting the crime” law.
. Your discipline in this situation was to ground them. How exactly does that correspond with that statement? What does grounding have to do with trespassing?
Idea: Perhaps a fitting punishment would be to have your children help the homeowner clean the pool through the rest of the summer...?
Personal Experience: My mother tried to effectivly enforce "grounding" since I was about 8. It quickly lost its harshness when I discovered the wonderful world of books. I can't go outside? Good, it's too hot anyway. (smartass<--which in turn would get me a few more days added on). She never really tried anything else on me, even when a lot of different punishments would have more effective.
Xavier: I know that you had no discipline in your life. Ever. This makes me nervous.
quote:I have no problem with him being punished for breaking a rule...
You say that children should have some sort of punishments, the severity to ultimatly be determined by the crime, but you have told me on many occasions that as a child, your father tried to discipline (grounding), but to no avail. You and your brothers simply ignored him and to punish him, you or your brothers would stay out for a few days!
Do you now disagree with your actions as a teenager or would you accept the same treatment from our kids?
Edit: I'm only posting this comment to Xavier because he's in bed sleeping and I want to start the conversation now, while it's fresh.
We've had the kids and disipline conversation before and it one of the few that never ends well.
[ June 15, 2005, 12:50 AM: Message edited by: Valentine014 ]
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I thought of the pool cleaning thing too, it was something my parents would ahve thought up...
I do think that grounding can be effective...my mom took away my books while grounded, because she knew that she didn't have to worry about me not reading onvce it was done.
The punishment fitting the crime isn't a literal thing, you know....it usually means that the duratrion and/or severity of the punsihment fits the severity of the infraction.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Also, my parents sometimes . . .not usually, but sometimes....allowed for time to be taken off for good behavior while grounded. I could never count on it, and looking back I figure now that it was probably around family vacations when grounding would not have been praticle to them . . . but if I was good, and had shown true remorse, then sometimes the grounding was lifted a little early.
My main point is that that is her job, being a parent...to determine what unishment fits the crime. She has already said that if they had been crashing other kids pools, or something like that, it would have been a lot less of a problem.
Sounds to me like she really thought this out pretty darn well.
Kwea
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
SOrry, Firefox has been acting weird a lot lately. Keeps telling teh No Data message again. Posted by JenniK (Member # 3939) on :
I have worked as a lifeguard at a pool, a summer camp with a pool and waterfront (lake), and at Walt Disney World's Typhoon Lagoon (insane!), and although I understand what Xavier said, I am also aware that even an expert swimmer can drown in just 2 inches of water. My problem with the entire story is this:
quote: My normally well behaved kids, along with a few of their normally well behaved buddies jumped into a neighbor’s pool
...
There is so much potential for danger in just that statement. Kids like to goof off and play around, and near water, even more so. Chicken fights and jumping in right after someone else. Disaster waiting to happen. I know personally. I had someone jump in just as i came up...their feet landed on my face! I was about 13 at the time and it was so not fun. Luckily nothing was broken ...just a really bloody nose and a headache, but it could have been a lot worse. I agree with the statement about not knowing that the other parents said to their kids and all , but the thought that it wasn't dangerous is scary.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
quote:Your discipline in this situation was to ground them. How exactly does that correspond with that statement? What does grounding have to do with trespassing?
quote: The punishment fitting the crime isn't a literal thing, you know....it usually means that the duratrion and/or severity of the punsihment fits the severity of the infraction.
Thanks Kwea! I couldn't have put it better myself. That's exactly what I meant by that statement. I had thought about having my kids go and volunteer their services, however they might be needed. I also thought of getting a plant and having the kids deliver it. I'm still involved in that thought process; it's only been a couple of days since it happened.
quote: There is so much potential for danger in just that statement. Kids like to goof off and play around, and near water, even more so. Chicken fights and jumping in right after someone else. Disaster waiting to happen. I know personally. I had someone jump in just as i came up...their feet landed on my face! I was about 13 at the time and it was so not fun. Luckily nothing was broken ...just a really bloody nose and a headache, but it could have been a lot worse. I agree with the statement about not knowing that the other parents said to their kids and all , but the thought that it wasn't dangerous is scary.
I didn't mean to imply that I didn't think what they did was dangerous. It just wasn't the first thought that ran through my mind. I'm a mom for goodness sakes. I'm always worried they'll end up in the hospital. Actually my son is an accident waiting to happen and not because he's normally well behaved or otherwise. He's daring, adventurous and a bit clumsy at times. I can't tell you how many times I've had to take him to the ER due to bike crashes, etc. He's wild. I'm terrified of him driving a vehicle.
That's not what I meant by normally well-behaved. I really just meant that they normally don't do things as disrespectful as this, that's all.
I really appreciate all of your comments. I've read each one and have tried to understand some of the different points of view. I feel good about my decision. I've always tried to practice discipline without anger and that is not always so easy to do. As upset as I was over this I didn't blow! I don't want to scare or alienate my kids. I want to gently adjust their thinking and teach them valuable lessons. I try.
p.s. I'm taking the kids swimming today. They're going to get some good, fun and legal water action.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
The thing is, in this case, grounding does fit the crime beautifully. They trespassed on a neighbors' grounds, they are confined to their own.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
I still the pool cleaning idea is good, too. Bwahahahaha. That would suck.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
I don't know, I think my kids might actually enjoy cleaning the pool.
It's hot t t t t here!
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Community service as a consequence does not have to be miserable. The kids will still learn from it.I think it is a great idea.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
I agree. I also think that it would be wise to let the homeowner decide what work they need to do and how much of it. After all, he's the victim.
(Disclaimer: I have no kids, so what the heck do I know?)
As a kid growing up, I was never disciplined and I had no rules I had to live by. I don't count abuse as discipline, nor do I count changing their minds every other day on what I should or should not do as rules, by the way. I would have preferred it if there were actual rules and discipline. As it was, no one cared if I was out until 3am on a school night when I was 12.
I personally agree with earlier comments that parents who care about their children have rules and discipline children who break those rules.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
I was always a self punisher as a child, worried about causing anyone disappointment. My dad had to look at me with a little strenness, and I would crumple. My sister was the same way.
My brother needed a heavier approach, as he pushed the limits constantly.
So, there is always a fine line between being consistent, and giving each child what they need.
I tend to go by the "Being fair does not always mean being equal" approach. My kids understand that, but many don't.
Parenting is like taking raft down a river. A rocky, rapid river.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
quote: Parenting is like taking raft down a river. A rocky, rapid river.
...without a life jacket.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
. . . and all the training is as-you-go!
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
But what a glorious ride!
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Speaking of rivers, rapids and life rafts....
We had a record-setting rain here recently (15 inches in one night in some areas). The river is very high and rapid.
So on the news they tell about these 3 kids here in Wichita. They decide they want to raft the river (usually the river is so low you have to portage more than you boat). Anyway, so these three kids build a "raft" from logs, styrofoam blocks, rope, etc. They drop it in the river and get on. The raft promptly falls apart in the rapid current, and an army of EMS, Fire, Rescue crews have to rescue the kids. THe police captain interviewed on the radio said the kids were doing it pure "Huck Finn" style.
So the kids are charged with "reckless navigation" -- a misdeamenor, and about the only thing I think they could come up with to charge them for. Spent a night in Juvenile Hall, I think.
I was kind of sad that they got charged. Okay -- so it was a stupid idea. But they were wearing life jackets -- they weren't entirely without sense. Sure, it made the emergency workers have to rescue them, so I can see their point in that way.
But all I could think of was that the kids showed some ingenuity, some daring, some creativity -- built something themselves and tried it out. I would rather my kids do that than sit in front of the Nintendo all day.
I wonder if the Wright brothers would have gotten arrested for crashing their first flight attempt?
Farmgirl
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Obviously if they crashed, it would be reckless navigation. The air! Not the ground!
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thanks, KQ. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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