quote:

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Behold, thou art Peter, and upon this rock I shall build my church. And the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.

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It struck me that this is a rather curious formulation. Had he said 'hosts of hell', that would imply a struggle on Earth against sin; but 'gates of hell' seems to suggest that the church will be attacking hell at some point, or that the church has the power to fish souls out of hell. So I have two questions : First, does anyone know the original Aramaic, and is 'gates of hell' a good translation? And second, what is the view of the various churches on this phrase - in what way is the church opposed to the gates of hell, rather than hell as a whole?
 

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Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
 
I don't know the Aramaic, but the Vulgate does say "portae," for which "gates" is a pretty good translation. What it means is something I've never really thought about.
 

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Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 
Well, maybe he means to use Peter to bash in the gates of hell. Y'know - one of them medieval warfare thingymajigs whose name excapes me at the moment.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Or it could be that that era saw the struggle as Hell trying to throw open it's gates and reign over the earth, shich is faily accurate. Of it's era, I mean.


So if teh Gates won't prevail, the Church will be the one holding the gates closed.


There are a ton of possible meanings, as most of it is allegory.

Kwea
 

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Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 
I like the idea of using Peter to bash in the gates, Kwea.

*scowls fiercely*

And what the heck is the name of that thingy . . . oh yes! A BATTERING RAM. Phew - that would have haunted me this evening until I remembered it.
 

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Posted by SC Carver (Member # 8173) on :
 
In the Old Testament and other literature the "gates of hell" or "Gates of Sheol" are equivalent to death. Jesus is saying that death itself will not overcome his people or church.


I believe the text would have been in Greek.
This is where Christ gives Simon the name "Peter", which is a play on the Greek word for Rock (petra).

This is also the passage the Catholic Church uses to justify the Pope's position as the head of the Church. Claiming this is where Christ made Peter the first Pope.
 

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Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
 
I second Carver's interpretation. The idea of Satan sitting down in hell with an army of minions waiting to flood the earth was not yet common at the time that line was spoken. "Hell" (or Sheol) was a place more like other classical "Underworld" settings — a creepy place where dead people went, not a base of operations for an army of ravening demons.

That image seems to have become more popular these days with the advent of DOOM You would not believe how many games at e3 this year were about demons or demon-like creatures rising up from hell to take over the earth. There were almost as many of those as there were zombie games.
 

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Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
 
The Vulgate was, I think, translated from Greek.

The operative word:
Sheol - Hebrew
Hades - Greek
Purgatorio - Latin

Commonly translated as "the grave" in English.

A simple explanation is that gates were symbolic of power and so the gates of hell or death were simply the power of it. "Oh grave where is thy victory? oh death where is thy sting?"

BUT (warning, long ramble that may not be the most scholarly)

Early Creeds include the line "Descended into Hell" before affirming that Jesus was raised from the dead and there is a passage in the new testament about Jesus "preaching to the souls in prison". The idea, as I understand it, is that Jesus, in dying, basically went to that area reserved by satan for the souls of those who have died and led sort of a jailbreak. I'e seen implications from orthodox Christian authors (Lewis, MacDonald) that, because the nature of time is different from the nature of the universe, that all souls were/are there and that all meet Jesus there. This is why the idea of faith is important-- not believing in the face of evidence to the contrary, but the faith of friendship... the faith to believe in love. (I have recently discovered that this is a lot harder than it sounds).

The picture I get is this: because of original sin, satan has a claim on all of us and, when we die, our soul goes into some sort of prison he has devised for us. Jesus offered to take our places and died to do so, but once inside, Jesus effectively says "I'm bustin' out! who's with me?"

Obviously, it takes a little trust to follow someone like that. Revelations notes that both satan and sheol are thrown into the lake of fire-- the true "hell". So, as I see it, the way to go into hell is to get comfortable in your prison and not be ready to try for something new when the chance is offered you. Your choices are literally to believe in Jesus or get thrown into an eternal torment.

Some would say we are mystically making that decision ("should I stay or should I go?") in the way we live our everyday lives... and I can't really gainsay that. What I can say is that if you are interested in a generic, orthodox Christian view of who goes to hell, who goes to heaven, and how they got there, I would highly recommend The Great Divorce by C. S. Lewis.

[edit to note: I still think this is all allegory... what factual and real form this all takes is probably beyond my imagination... but I *don't* think there's going to be a literal jailbreak from purgatory]
 

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Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
 
Jim-Me, I really liked what you wrote. Makes sense to me.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
A few selections from the Old Testament:

Deu. 32:3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

1 Sam 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.

2 Sam 22:22:1 And David spake unto the LORD the words of this song in the day that the LORD had delivered him out of the hand of all his enemies, and out of the hand of Saul:
2 And he said, The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer;
3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence.

2 Sam 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?

2 Sam 22:47 The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and exalted be the God of the rock of my salvation.

2 Sam 23:3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.

Psalm 18:2 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.

Psalm 78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.

And from the New Testament:

Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

the rock above is: 4073. petra, pet'-ra; fem. of the same as G4074; a (mass of) rock (lit. or fig.):--rock.

The verse in question:

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Peter: 4074. Petros, pet'-ros; appar. a prim. word; a (piece of) rock (larger than G3037); as a name, Petrus, an apostle:--Peter, rock. Comp. G2786.

rock: 4073. petra, pet'-ra; fem. of the same as
G4074; a (mass of) rock (lit. or fig.):--rock.

1 Cor. 10: 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

And just in case you're curious:
gates: 4439. pule, poo'-lay; appar. a prim. word; a gate, i.e. the leaf or wing of a folding entrance (lit. or fig.):--gate.

hell: 86. haides, hah'-dace; from G1 (as a neg. particle) and G1492; prop. unseen, i.e. "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls:--grave, hell.

I always find it useful to check out the greek/hebrew. So, I thought I'd share it here. I don't speak either language...but I have a computer program that lets me click on words and get definitions. It's not perfect--of course. Speakers of the languages understand more completely.

But still, every time I hear that verse I think of the difference between petra and petros--so I thought I'd share it here. Do with it what you will.

-Katarain
 

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Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
 
I think the focus on the gates is that Jesus broke down the gates but it is up to us to walk out. In order to do that we have to be willing to come unto Jesus in humility, letting go of our own wills.

Some of the readings that I've gone over with the Jehovah's witnesses have caused me to wonder if "spirits" that don't come unto Jesus will lack their memories, emotions, and other activities that involve having a body. It would explain that comment attributed to the 3rd president of the LDS church that we can accomplish more in a day of mortality than we can accomplish in 15,000 years of the afterlife. Because Jesus undertook all our experiences in the atonement, if we will be one with him he can lend us back our memories and emotions.

I guess I would just add that in this view, hell or spirit prison is not a region. It is a state of being limited only to those activities that it cannot be explained by science. So we'll have language

Boy, I never thought there would be a thread I would share these thoughts in.

P.S. I suppose I should add that the typical view of a spirit is a being much like a person set free from the bounds of mortality. I'm saying that a spirit would also lack most of the useful tools of mortality. Also, I believe Satan etc. exists in this spirit state. So my observation that such a spirit would have language also connects with my belief that Satan's power to "make" people sin is similar to that of advertisers. Which is not inconsiderable.
 

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