Ok, I’ve tried not to post much politically for a while since I seem to get in trouble. But this one seems like one that everyone should agree on. So….. what do you think: Border Volunteers Not So Welcomed in Texas
When I think of a vigilante I think of something out of comic books like Spider Man or Batman. Neighborhood watches are organized all across the country and you never hear any complaints there. I don’t get in the least why there are any problems with the Minutemen since they are essentially doing the same thing as a neighborhood watch. Plus they’ve saved lives by being there when illegals needed medical attention in the desert.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
*sigh* We are not all going to agree on this.
First of all, I find the term "illegals" offensive.
Posted by Gryphonesse (Member # 6651) on :
ketchupqueen, can you elaborate on why?
I live in Texas, I'm face to face with the immigration issue on a daily basis, and I'm really curious to see what the jatraqueros have to say on this...
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Why I find the term "illegals" offensive? Because it's dehumanizing, that's why. That article brings up some good points about the TX border being different, and I can think of several others.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I rarely agreed with you political posts, but that isn't what use to bother me, Jay. As long as we can all (and I do mean all) refrain from name calling, why not discuss politics once and a while.
There are a few things wrong with this. First of all, according to the police there, even in AZ they were more a hindrance than a help, at least according to a lot of sources. Most of the call they made were false leads, made just because the people looked (or were) Hispanic.That wasted the polices time and manpower.
Also, a lot of them were armed, and that by definition makes them dangerous. One man assaulted a truck of illegal immigrants with a loaded gun, forcing them to lie face down while he threatened to shoot them. Not that they had a right to be there, but the gunman had no right to assault them, or order them to do anything.
What is next? A shooting or three, with the only people left alive at the scene the militia?
Also, a lot of land is private, and they would be trespassing in order to bring their own style of "law" to the border.
It is the same as any other unsupervised militia . . . not a good thing even though they MIGHT be right about a few points.
That isn't even beginning to go into the well founded racist charges.
Kwea
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I was interested to note (and this might not be immediately apparent to people not from the area) that the founder of the Texas branch is from Arlington-- in the Dallas area. Arlington is a long way from the Mexico border. I wonder why this particular woman is so gung-ho about this particular cause.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Doing something that you can convince yourself makes a difference can be a great comfort.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
The guy who stopped the truck load was not a minuteman. He was a guy just back from Iraq and made a citizens arrest after they charged at him. Still a lot out on that one.
I don’t understand why illegal is offensive? There is a legal way to come here. If you don’t do that, you are here illegally.
Posted by Gryphonesse (Member # 6651) on :
Distance from the border isn't as relevant as one might think. The people who cross the border head to the large cities for work, and Dallas certainly qualifies. Texas is all but overrun with illegal immigrants. They even support the economy to a ceratin degree. They certainly support Mexico's economy. I was LIVID when Vicente Fox has the nerve to bitch about us attempting to better police our borders. I just wish there was a better LEGAL way to allow these people to come here an work if they want to. We also have to deal with the burden of medical care and education (among other social services) that the taxpayers cover, and the criminal element that is virtually impossible to track.
Let me take a breather and compose my thoughts on this a little better...
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Can you use the full term? Illegal immigrant refers to a person. Calling them "illegals" dehumanizes them.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
But that isn't the total sum of who you are, really. Lots of people break the law here on a daily basis, but we don't call them illegals, right?
It is usually a fill in for a racial term. Pretending otherwise doesn't make it any less a truth.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
But that makes them "illegal immigrants" and not "illegals". Its the difference between "Japanese citizens" and "Japs". Or "Gernam citizens" to "Jerrys". Its applying a new name to the group of people, in order to dehumanize them. Usually so you don't feel bad about doing something bad to them.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Texas is all but overrun with illegal immigrants.
No, it's really not. That is a gross overstatement.
Posted by Gryphonesse (Member # 6651) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
quote:Texas is all but overrun with illegal immigrants.
No, it's really not. That is a gross overstatement.
well how about I qualify that - the large cities certainly are. Houston is. I live here and I see it every day. When there was an INS scare, the street corners were empty for a week and NO construction got done becuase there wasn't a pool of illegal immigrant labor for the contractors to use. School attendance dropped by almost 35% becuase parents kept their kids home for fear of being deported. I don't even know where to start about what's wrong with that... But when the city is so affected, then yes, I think overrun is an accurate term.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Depends what you define as "overrun". Certianly in California illegal immigration was/is placing a huge burden on the already overburdened public health system there. If immigrants are/were legal, generally speaking they don't add stress to the public health system because the minimum care is available through an employer.
There was a study out recently, that I need to look up, I think I heard about it on NPR. Anyway it basically said the amount of benefit that the average illegal immigrant contributed to the country's economy, didn't actually offset the costs of the extra drain on public resourses.
But because all of the costs are public, and get off loaded as government responsibilities, it isn't obvious to any business or individual hiring an illegal immigrant, since it is a short term gain for them.
One of the biases as I recall, in this study was the fact that it dinged the illegal immigrant for sending money home to family, which wasn't spent in the US. I don't think that they actually measured the benefit to the other country's economy and how that net impact helped or hurt the US.
AJ
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
I really don’t see much of a difference between illegals and illegal immigrants. I really don’t think they should have rights in our country other then a ride to the border. They’re here illegally. I guess maybe if instead of dumping them over the border we put them in jail for a bit and reinstated chain gangs then instead of cheap labor we could have free labor. Cool.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
That is why you shouldn't discuss politics.
I must have forgotten.
Some things ALL people have a right to, regardless of where they are from or how they got here.
I agree that they should not have all the rights we have, and that they should be deported, but other than that I can't see why I bothered posting here.
And I can't think of a reason why I should continue to do so.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Thank you for demonstrating our point. You call them "illegals", we say that's dehumanizing, and then you go and show us that you don't actually think of them as humans.
Well done.
Posted by DarkKnight (Member # 7536) on :
I live in Pennsylvania and I am concerned about illegal immigration, or really people crossing the border freely in general whether they are immigrants or terrorists or criminals going into hiding (and to be clear I do also mean leaving the US too in all those cases such as a criminal escaping to hide out in Mexico), so I don't think that how far you live from the border has much to do with it. We do need to secure our borders better yet also come up with a way for foreigners to come work here and contribute to US taxes just like everyone else does. Paying taxes to me would eliminate a lot of the accusations of 'paying' for illegal immigrants. The article talks a lot about what might happen, but who knows what could actually happen. CA went well because they actual members of the group stuck to what they said they would do, mostly non-interference and reporting
Posted by Gryphonesse (Member # 6651) on :
Wow - I'm surprised to see that this is such a hot topic. I figured that few people outside of the border states even gave a hoot about the issue. Appears I was wrong...
I gotta scoot - I'll check back in after lunch to see what else y'all have to say
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Ok, of course they have their rights to be treated humanly. Just like Geneva conventions stuff. But schooling for kids, heath care, jobs, and any other government provided service shouldn’t be. Why? That certainly doesn’t encourage people to come here the right way. Why not put people who come here illegally in jail? It would discourage more people from coming illegally and encourage legal immigration.
Posted by DarkKnight (Member # 7536) on :
Techincally they are mostly illegal immigrants. Illegal because they did not come in legally, but also immigrants because they are people who come to a country where they were not born in order to settle there. So they are, and thank you Dictionary.com, correctly described as illegal immigrants. I definitely see the point Kwea and others raised about that
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Thank you for demonstrating our point. You call them "illegals", we say that's dehumanizing, and then you go and show us that you don't actually think of them as humans.
Zing!
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:But schooling for kids, heath care, jobs, and any other government provided service shouldn’t be. Why?
Because we're America. We've societal riches aplenty, and we can use them to lift other people out of poverty, and give them, at least, a healthier, longer life.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
I really fail to see how putting someone who is committing a crime in jail and getting something out of a criminals jail time as dehumanizing. Better then them staying in their lifting weights so they can beat cops more easily.
Posted by Risuena (Member # 2924) on :
quote:Originally posted by Gryphonesse:
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
quote:Texas is all but overrun with illegal immigrants.
No, it's really not. That is a gross overstatement.
well how about I qualify that - the large cities certainly are. Houston is. I live here and I see it every day. When there was an INS scare, the street corners were empty for a week and NO construction got done becuase there wasn't a pool of illegal immigrant labor for the contractors to use. School attendance dropped by almost 35% becuase parents kept their kids home for fear of being deported. I don't even know where to start about what's wrong with that... But when the city is so affected, then yes, I think overrun is an accurate term.
How do you know how many of them are here illegally? I know plenty of legal immigrants who are afraid of INS and if they heard about an INS scare, they'd go into hiding too. It's still a gross overstatement.
quote:One of the biases as I recall, in this study was the fact that it dinged the illegal immigrant for sending money home to family, which wasn't spent in the US. I don't think that they actually measured the benefit to the other country's economy and how that net impact helped or hurt the US.
I'm planning to write my thesis about the money that immigrants, particularly Mexicans, send back to their home country. Last year, remittances to Mexico topped $17 billion (considering how much is sent informally, the real number is probably higher) and became the country's number one source of foreign revenue. Despite that, most of the effect that remittances have is on local economies. There are many who believe that remittances can help the receiving countries and just as many who believe that remittances are making countries more dependent on the US. I honestly can't tell you how remittances have effected the US. It's not my specific area of interest and as far as I know, no one has studied that.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R:
quote:But schooling for kids, heath care, jobs, and any other government provided service shouldn’t be. Why?
Because we're America. We've societal riches aplenty, and we can use them to lift other people out of poverty, and give them, at least, a healthier, longer life.
Fine. That's great and I agree, but there is a legal way to come here! Crime should not be tolerated. Why should we tolerate breaking of the law.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
What?
That is so irrelevant to what we're saying. The term is dehumanizing, not jail time. And it's mostly deportation, anyway.
As for basic emergency health care and prenatal care, and preventative care for children, everyone should have access to that. Period.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
I haven’t used the term it was said it was offensive either. I said was I didn’t get how it was. And then talked about jail for them, but that somehow dehumanized them. I understand it’s mostly deportation (if we’re lucky), but I think jail would be a better deterrent. I know you don’t have time to ask for your cards in an emergency, that’s understandable, but the rest shouldn’t be paid for. Everyone else has to pay for that somehow. Even if that’s welfare. Come here legally and get one welfare then.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
No, I really don't get it.
And your attitude is really not healthy. You realize that if someone doesn't get prenatal care, has their child here, their child is born unhealthy, their child is a natural-born citizen and has a right to be on public assistance for the rest of their life, right? Do you know how much that costs?
Posted by Risuena (Member # 2924) on :
Here's a question, what is someone supposed to do when they are no jobs in their community and their family is barely making it by? They've already tried moving to a city but life there's not much better (if at all better). The process of emigrating legally can take years. And meanwhile, the family slowly starves because no one can find a job.
I understand that coming to the US illegally is a crime. What I don't understand is what other choice the immigrants are supposed to have? Sure, the governments of emigration countries need to institute better policies to take care of their citizens, but that's not helping the migrants now.
Honestly, the only way I can see of to slow/prevent migration is a pipe dream. Help the migrant-sending countries develop to a point where the citizens don't need to go elsewhere to survive. Realistically, it's never gonna happen, but it's not going to stop me from trying.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
You need to read up on chain gangs if that is all you think they were. There ae a ton of reasons why they were abolished, you know.
Kwea
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:I guess maybe if instead of dumping them over the border we put them in jail for a bit and reinstated chain gangs then instead of cheap labor we could have free labor. Cool.
First you use the term "dumping them over the border", which pretty clearly shows you think of them as objects, not people.
Then you state that a great solution is to use them as slaves. Then you call your slavery idea "cool".
Nope, no dehumanizing here.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Yes, I know that about children born here. Which if we controlled the borders better this wouldn’t happen as often. And also would happen less often if we deported more often. Sure come here legally, raise your children here, make a better life for your family, enjoy the American dream. But do it legally. We have to have respect for the law and we really have to know who is coming into our country. I’m not sure why my attitude isn’t healthy. I think we’d have a healthier, safer, fairer America if everyone came her the right way instead of trying to cheat the system.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Oh, THAT comment. Missed that.
I'm with Xavier. Kind of.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Jay, if the system wasn't so screwed up and xenophobic, perhaps we wouldn't have so many trying to "cheat" it.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote: I'm with Xavier. Kind of.
Then I appreciate the support. I think.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I just didn't want to imply there was an inappropriate relationship going on. You know, now that my husband's registered. Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
What other choice the immigrants are supposed to have? Fill out the proper forms and come here the right way. Ok, when I say chain gangs I mean prisons doing work. There are all kinds of things they could be doing helping society then just sitting in cells. And sure, call this slave labor if you like, I’d rather think of it as repayment to society for crimes against society. If that’s dehumanizing so be it. I guess I’d hope jail would make you feel a bit less of a member of society. Maybe that’ll help them work to better themselves.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Hey Jay, can I call you an illegal, because I'm sure at some point in the recent past (and likely repeatedly) you have broken the law by travelling faster than the posted speed limit in a car?
Stupid illegals, causing insurance and health care prices to go up, and endangering others on the road, especially helpless children. A fair amount of them are druggies/alcoholics. Frickin parasites. And the children! Someone think of them... Please!
-Bok
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Prisons already have work programs. "Chain gangs" is a different thing.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Bok, I still don’t agree with you on the terms, but I’m not going to use it here. Thought that was an honest compromise. Sorry that doesn’t make you happy.
Work release programs are one thing. I think they should all have to do something. Weather it’s breaking up rocks, help pick up trash, or some other labor. There’s all kinds of things society can have done and no reason why they shouldn’t be working 10 hours a day 6 days a week.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Well, Jay, for someone who loves your civil and human rights as much as you seem to, you're spectacularly willing to ignore those of others just because they have comitted one illegal act.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Whose rights am I ignoring? Prisoners? Because I think we should make them work? Illegal Immigrants? Because I think they should have to fill out a little paper work and come here the right way? Sure one illegal act can put you in jail. But this is why we post the rules ahead of time so people know if you do this you can get this. I guess I’m confused on what you’re meaning. I’m not anti-immigrant. Come one come all. Just register on the way in.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
Jay, sometimes I wonder if you are being deliberately obtuse, have been totally and completely reprogrammed by the ultra-right wing nutjobs or are just unintelligent.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Sigh….. name calling makes it so hard to discuss. Why not just say what you think and try and convince me of your side. What is so ultra right wing or unintelligent here?
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Oh puh-leaze, PrimalCurve, quit trying to derail the thread into personality pounding. An inability or unwillingness to provide Jay with answers/rebuttals does not give one the right to indulge in name-calling.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
I would think (hope!) that even most rabid anti-immigration right wing conservatives would think that putting illegal immigrants in prison for 60 hour a week slave labor is going too far.
Edit: and as to whether this idea is "unintelligent"... I think you can figure that out on your own...
BUT
I still don't think Glynn should attack you personally like that. It does very little for the discussion (though one could argue sometimes rational discourse doesn't accomplish much either).
Posted by kaioshin00 (Member # 3740) on :
quote: And sure, call this slave labor if you like, I’d rather think of it as repayment to society for crimes against society. If that’s dehumanizing so be it.
I'd just like to echo Risuena's post:
quote: Here's a question, what is someone supposed to do when they are no jobs in their community and their family is barely making it by? They've already tried moving to a city but life there's not much better (if at all better). The process of emigrating legally can take years. And meanwhile, the family slowly starves because no one can find a job.
I dont think the immigrants see themselvs as performing crimes against society.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Having prisoners work isn’t very ultra right wing. 60 seemed like a reasonable number for people you need to keep busy and deter others from committing crimes. But hey, if this is unintelligent so be it. I bet it would work. This how hard so many people try to get out of a days work! Can you imagine. No way, I don’t want to go to jail, they’ll make me work!!!! Bet crime rates would plummet. Sure, jailing illegal immigrants is harsh. I’m not saying put them away for life. But a day or week in jail would certainly help deter others from not doing it legally. Of course increasing terms for repeat offenders. Yes, the whole starving family’s thing is a strong argument. I imagine the terrorists had their sad stories they told to come here too. But there has to be rules. There has to be law. And once made, the law has to be obeyed.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
My point was to show the dehumanizing aspect of flippantly using the term "illegals". You don't like the term applied to you, it makes you defensive and closed up against me (and rightfully so).
I'm sure many of those who are coming here to help support their families because their current homelands don't have the opportunities would feel similarly.
Words have power, is all I'm saying. Be judicious, especially when trying to seriously discuss things.
-Bok
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Bok – I didn’t agree with your point then nor now. I didn’t get defensive, I said I didn’t agree but that I wouldn’t use it here. Not sure why that isn’t reasonable.
That’s great if people get to come here to help their families in their homeland. Just do it legally.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
And what about all the people who aren't allowed to do it legally because we have such stringent restrictions on it?
Or those who can't afford the bribes often needed to get permission to leave?
What about people facing persecution, torture, and death in their own country to whom we deny asylum because, after all, they can't prove it? (How many make it out of their country with hard evidence that their government will kill them if they go back?)
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
So does that mean I can call you an "illegal"? Since it doesn't bother you, and is just as applicable.
It's fine that you won't use it again out of trite politeness, but it's disturbing that you'll acquiesce without at least admitting you can understand why it might seen as a slur. That's a great way to develop a healthy persecution complex, in my opinion.
It's easy to write your last paragraph from the inside. There's corruption on both sides that make it impossible to enter legally, and the alternative is to remain destitute, or worse, for the rest of their lives.
-Bok
Posted by DarkKnight (Member # 7536) on :
So what do we do, ketchupqueen?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I don't know. I'm not really saying it's okay to break the law in every case; I'm just saying I can definitely sympathise. I do think there are many immigration policies that we really need to change. I also think if someone has a sane, morally sound idea on how to solve the world's problems, I'm behind them.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
It must not be all that strict since we have so many legal immigrants each year. I imagine with modern technology we could streamline a lot of the process and make it easier, but that is a different issue. Still needs to be done to the letter of the law. And there certainly isn’t much we can do about bribes in other countries. It seems we do help people from outlaw, out of control countries. But again, legally here in the US.
Bok – There’s a lot of things we do out of politeness.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Yeah, but I'm generally polite because I can empathize with the person I'm being polite to. I may not agree, but I can see why they think they are right.
-Bok
Posted by Gryphonesse (Member # 6651) on :
the first thing that would have to be completely changed is the governmental bureaucracy that's built itself up around this issue. THAT is gonna be a helluva job. I work with quite a few interntational folks here and I've had to deal with the INS and the State Department, and you're right, it's NOT easy to get here legally. Even with a job offer, preference is always and MUST always be given to US citizens. THere are a million rules and regs for a work visa, and twice that to apply for a permanent green card.
My issue: There's a reason it's not easy. You should have to work to get here. It shouldn't be handed out on a platter. Not to mention the whole national security issue. Or safety issues. Or criminal isssues.
And before I get crucified, let me just state that I don't think it's unreasonable to have an immigration program that would target the folks who want to come here from Latin America - and make it easier to get here LEGALLY, and work here LEGALLY. As for where they send & spend their money? It's their and they can bloodywell do as they like with it if they've earned it.
This, like all the other touchy issues, is not easily resloved.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
Hey Jay, do you want your tax dollars paying for the food, water and medicine that a jail offers? Not to mention the fact that we'd need to build new jails, considering the sheer amount of border crossers there are in any given year.
I'd rather save jail-space for real criminals.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quote:Because we're America. We've societal riches aplenty, and we can use them to lift other people out of poverty, and give them, at least, a healthier, longer life.
I don't know that this is a completely accurate statement.
For example, have you ever been to a charity hospital on a Friday or Saturday night? I don't think we can say we have so many societal riches they should just be here for the taking for whoever wants them.
There are many people in America who are full, natural citizens and even military veterans that aren't getting adequate health care, and yes some of it has to do with the fact that the systems in place to help them are overrun - too many people to care for, not enough resources. You can blame political parties or budget cuts or societal apathy if you want but it doesn't change the fact that we are having trouble taking care of our own needy, much less all the needy in other countries.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
But on the other hand, nt to say you don't have a point....
If the rules we have in place now were in place 100 years ago, most of our families would not have been able to come over to the USA.
Or they would have been "illegals"...
Jay, there were other points mentioned that you haven't addressed yet. There are many reasons why these groups have to be controled, not just one or two minor issues.
Kwea
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me. I lift my lamp beside the golden door."
Trying on some ideas for size...
Maybe we should encourage, anyone already in the country illegally to bring their families to the US. Then all money spent in support would be spent in the domestic economoy.
Drawback: Cost of living is higher here than in a 3rd world country.
Pro: If we agree with the proposition that families are the most stable unit of society, overall order will probably increase, and it is likely the net public support wouldn't be that much greater for a family than for an individual because of efficiency of scale, even if the children did get their education from a public school.
Pro: It is often in the struggle to break free from poverty that some of the world's greatest innovation genuis has been realized, if given an opportunity to blossom.
Con: It is much cheaper and less terrifying to get here, even crossing the Mexican desert, compared to the ships of humanity crossing oceans in the previous centuries, population is increasing exponentionally, balancing a trickle vs a flood of humanity is hard.
Pro: The people that sacrifice the most to make it here will probably make the best citizens... The Mexican desert is actually giving us the kind of immigrants that are most useful both as workers and as citizens.
(editorial comment, "Lazy Mexican" on top of being a horridly racial comment is a total oxymoron. How hard they work for the little they get and how thankful they are for what they do get should cause us to re-evaluate life priorities)
AJ
Posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged (Member # 7476) on :
quote:Today's visitors to Ellis Island, although unencumbered by bundled possessions and the harrowing memory of a transatlantic journey, retrace the steps of twelve million immigrants who approached America's "front doors to freedom" in the early twentieth century. Ellis Island receives today's arriving ferry passengers as it did hundreds of thousands of new arrivals between 1897 and 1938. In place of the business-like machinery of immigration inspection, the restored Main Hall now houses the Ellis Island Immigration Museum, dedicated to commemorating the immigrants' stories of trepidation and triumph, courage and rejection, and the lasting image of the American dream. During its peak years-1892 to 1924 Ellis Island received thousands of immigrants a day. Each was scrutinized for disease or disability as the long line of hopeful new arrivals made their way up the steep stairs to the great, echoing Registry Room. Over 100 million Americans can trace their ancestry in the United States to a man, woman, or child whose name passed from a steamship manifest sheet to an inspector's record book in the great Registry Room at Ellis Island.
Thank goodness for less stringent immigration rules back then, about 1/4 of hatrack wouldn't even be alive.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
The Ellis Island Immigration Museum is an interesting museum. My brother and mother and I went in the 90s and had a good time.
[ June 03, 2005, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
My family came through there too, at least a lot of it did. Some of them came over long before that though, and one small part of my family tree was here before Columbus... Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
It’s very true that the rules in place now wouldn’t have allowed as many to come back then. It’s a different time now. Especially with the war on terror we need to know who is coming across our borders. I welcome and enjoy that many people come here legally from many countries. A fellow Republican and Iranian immigrant have many discussions here at work on such issues frequently.
PC – If you had the prison system set up as a place where people worked instead of lounged, they wouldn’t have to be so expensive with their elaborate weight rooms, libraries, entertainment centers, and other amenities. How about that waste of tax payer’s money!
I’m truly surprised about the responses to this issue. I really didn’t think this would be controversial. Why on earth would you want to allow anyone to enter the country unchecked? UBL has to be enjoying the ease with which he could get a massive attack into place across the country. I realize it’s hard and paper work is cumbersome. So let’s fix that problem, not turn a blind eye to a huge problem that could eventually be disastrous.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Perhaps if we let more immigrants in the terrorists would have no reason to attack us, because we wouldn't be viewed as a threat to their way of life. Basically I think the isolationist policies and philispohical viewpoint that limited the immigration to begin with, are many of the same policies and philosopies that caused the rise of terrorism.
AJ
Posted by Gryphonesse (Member # 6651) on :
I'm a first generation US citizen on my mother's side. She emigrated from Ireland about 40 years ago, legally. On my father's side, I'm an 8th generation Texan and a 4th generation Houstonian. I have both sides of this arguement in my immediate famliy. I'm fluent in Spanish becuase the lady that babysat me when I was little was from Cuba. I have no idea if she was here legally or not. I'm glad she was here. Vicente Fox wasn't too far off the mark when he said that the hispanics (not just Mexicans here, folks, not by a longshot, and do NOT get them confused unless you really want to insult someone)do the jobs that other's won't do.
Ideally, it would be nice if there was a way to work all this out nice and fair - but obviously there are too many people with lots of money on both sides of this issue. In the meantime, our economy relies on the cheap labor and we as taxpayers cover the difference in social services. Do any of you REALLY see this situation changing? Honestly? I'm down here in the middle of it, and I can't see a way out.
Posted by Black Fox (Member # 1986) on :
I'm not really a big fan of our immigration system, but what I can say is that if you don't like it then make the fact known.
That and the United States has a huge immigration issue. We are spending billions of tax dollars on social services for people who do not pay taxes. Not to mention the money we spend enforcing immigration laws etc.
That and I've noticed few people look at the full scope of the issue. Yes it costs us so much for us to have such high immigration, but how much does it cost us to keep it out. The best thing to do is have a happy medium of some kind, that is the most financially sound solution.
Also if you believe that decisions like this shouldn't have any basis in finances/economics then you should take a good hard realistic look at life. The problem is that so many people in their quest for perfect simple good seem to over look the real life issues of enforcing decisions and that though the United States may be a large wealthy land, it is not all-powerful.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
*waves* Hi Black Fox. I agree there are massive economic issues involved. I tried to post some of my own pros and cons as I thought them out. I guess it's a question of where we draw the line between money and conscience and about maximizing the greatest good. Too bad there isn't actually an equation to do that.
AJ
Posted by Black Fox (Member # 1986) on :
Thats why were are supposed to have wise leaders Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
Here's my simple suggestion:
Establish immigration centers about every two hundred miles along the border. Want to immigrate to the United States? Bring your Mexican citizenship ID, fill out our forms and wait for a quick background check. Have a hamburger in the commisary while you wait and a free health exam.
Next, give them a legal immigrant card with a 10 year expiration date for themself and each family member who has come with them. Issue them a social security number and explain to them their rights in the workforce. Let them know what cannot be taken from them by employers.
Then welcome them to America.
Cuts out the illegal immigration and the coyotes that prey on them. Borders can be enforced more stringently as people trying to cross undetected are obviously doing it for reasons beyond immigration. The immigrants would be both aware of their rights and taxable.
Who loses in this? Mexico? If Mexico was truly concerned about the lives of the people who are immigrating from there to here, perhaps they could work to make Mexico a more economically equal society.
(edit to add) I mean, these are people willing to risk their lives to come to the United States for a better life. We have so many here as citizens who would not put their lives on the line to defend this country if it were invaded or threatened. People willing to risk their lives just for a chance at a better life... how can we turn them away?
And don't we need them to remind us of what we should be thankful for?
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
An excelent idea. The main duty of these vigilantes, in the words of the "Onion," is to "provide such a negative impresion of what Americans are like that no one will want to imagrate." I qoute from memory.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Jay you may want to do a tad bit more research on immigration. There is not a simple choice for a Mexican looking to feed his family. He can't choose between filling out paper work and boarding the American Legal Train and illegally crossing the border just because you don't like the law.
I have a friend in India trying to get a Visa to the US.
He's doing things legally and has spent several thousands of dollars to be turned down. Why? Because he's single and they say Single Men are not needed in the US right now. Too risky that he may jump his Visa or something equally unpractical.
Limiting legal immigration is easy and has been done for a hundred years in the US. It is to the point that it is a beaurocratic nightmare seeking to exclude anyone from coming here.
The Average Wait Time for legal immigration from third world countries is about 10-15 years. And then if you work hard for another 10 years, you can get your wife and family to join you, if you still have one.
The numbers of immigrants allowed in the US are tiny compared to the number who want to come. Decisions about who gets in legally is more often based on who you know and who you bribe than on the moral hard-working righteousness of the immigrants.
Work Gangs will not deter illegal immigrants. These are people willing to work, and willing to work in low-paying jobs that most of us refuse. Having them patch holes in the road won't deter them because they came to the US to patch holes. They are getting food and shelter, which is not too much less than they hoped to make, and much more than they could have made at home.
The cost of maintaining the labor gang will far out weight the savings they will give to the government.
And those companies already paid to do that work will protest that you are using illegal aliens to steal their jobs.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:My issue: There's a reason it's not easy. You should have to work to get here.
Wow. 'You should have to work to get here.'?! Why, exactly? You were fortunate enough to be born here. You did precisely zero work to become an American. You have been raised, nurtured, protected under the blanket of freedom, opportunity, and justice that America provides purely based on happy circumstance of birth, but they should have to work for it?
Edit: I am presuming you are a natural-born American citizen.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:Why on earth would you want to allow anyone to enter the country unchecked?
Scarecrow! Scarecrow!
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Nifty idea, Sopwith. I'm not sure we'd have room for everyone, but maybe we could work out a deal with Mexico where for every 1,000 of their citizens we take in, they give us a square kilometer of land. Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
He makes a better point than you do, to be honest, not that I agree with him.
I have paid all sorts of dies, blood and other, to be an American. My family has sacrificed a lot as well, for all that they started as immigrants.
I think since they would be taking part in the country we have made, there should be a cost to jion, because it is worth something.
I just don't agree with how those costs are payed for now.
And one way of another, I don't want nutjobs with guns on my lawn telling my hispanic neighbors to hit the dirt because they left their wallet in their house.
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puh-leaze, PrimalCurve, quit trying to derail the thread into personality pounding. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)